U.S. Pushes For War In Europe
Updated below
It is pretty obvious that significant forces in Washington push for a big war in Europe, cold at least but hot if possible. European countries, aside from some small U.S. puppets, are well aware that they would be hit hard in such a war, and do not want it.
The U.S. wants to deliver additional weapons to Ukraine and to thereby goad Russia into such a wider war. The arguments made that such weapon delivers would somehow restrict Russia are just stupid and only hide the real plans: Escalation until Europe is (again) up in flames.
There is full steam lobbying by the U.S. to widen the conflict in Ukraine which it instigated in the first place:
As President Barack Obama’s pick to run the Pentagon said Wednesday he’s inclined to support lethal weapons transfers, Ukraine’s president said he was confident the U.S. would do so. Meanwhile, outgoing Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel and Secretary of State John Kerry were flying to discuss Ukraine and other issues with allies in Europe. Vice President Joe Biden is due to follow them Thursday.
France, the U.K., Germany and other Europeans have spoken out against any such weapon deliveries and the escalation they bring.
Kerry has flown to Kiev today to push for the Ukraine puppets into escalation. Merkel and Hollande will also fly to Kiev and will hopefully try to convince Poroshenko to deescalate and to make peace with the federalists in east-Ukraine. I have my doubts about their independence though and it may be that their appearance is is just part of the show. Why else did they agree to NATO's increase in capacities and infrastructure in east Europe?
The solution for the Ukraine is simple. Federalization, official acceptance of the Russian language which is spoken in the East and democratic elections of local governors. These have been the demands in the east and these have been solutions even U.S. foreign policy luminaries urged to accept a year ago.
The Ukraine is bankrupt. This morning its currency lost 30% in just a few hours. Instead of further instigating a civil war and pushing for its escalation it is urgently time to discuss how that problem can be solved. The solution can not be waging war and permanent subsidization of Europe's most corrupt country.
Federalization and constitutional reform (i.e. Point 3 Decentralization of power ...) are a major point agreed upon by both sides in the Minsk protocol about a ceasefire in east-Ukraine. But despite insisting on other points of the agreement himself Poroshenko still rejects those most important agreed upon conditions.
Should the U.S. win in its drive to escalate the situation by delivering more weapons to Kiev Russia will not cave in. History suggest that a Ukraine under NATO at its border is a deadly danger. Russia must and will take countermeasures. The U.S. will then cite those countermeasures as signs of "further aggression" and as justification for another round of escalation. A few more rounds of such and Europe will be up in flames.
That would be good for the U.S. economy but terrible for the Ukraine and Europe.
Update Funny. What "important" people are told:
1. Carnegie Endowment VP Andrew Weiss at 4:20 AM - 5 Feb 2015:
Russian sources: Merkel-Hollande plan freezes #Ukraine conflict along lines of Transdniester h/t @CoalsonR http://www.interfax.ru/world/422202
2. NPR correspondent Michele Keleman at 6:27 AM - 5 Feb 2015:
Western dip describes Russia's peace plan for Ukraine as roadmap to creating a new Transnistria/Abkhazia
So who's plan is this?
Posted by b on February 5, 2015 at 12:57 UTC | Permalink
next page »... going up in flames, here is a demonstration
Russian animation with matches - conflict
Actually, I am not sure Kerry is in Kyiv to make a gift of weapons. Here is the official statement
And obviously, we’ll be talking about the dire security situation in the east of Ukraine and the grave acceleration of the fighting over the Minsk lines by the separatists enabled by Russian weapons, Russian expertise, Russian command and control. He will be endeavoring to support efforts by the Ukrainians to get to a ceasefire, to get back to serious negotiations in the Trilateral Contact Group where the Minsk signatories – Russia, Ukraine, and the separatists – sit. And he will be offering U.S. support to any diplomatic framework that can be successful in this context.
I guess, Ukraine and the West desperately need a ceasefire now. To throw weapons on it won't help. The IMF has linked further loans to peace and territorial integrity.
Posted by: somebody | Feb 5 2015 13:36 utc | 2
You have got to better describe the silly "Europe in flames" phraseology. Otherwise you lose credibility.
It would go nuclear during the fighting in eastern Ukraine if the USA really wants war. Then we're all dead whether we're in San Diego or Warsaw. If the US blows the Zaporozhe nuclear reactor, that will probably be considered a nuclear attack on Russia because that entire area is seen by the Russians as theirs (and blowing a reactor would be an admission by the Pentagon that Zaporozhe is not territory the US really cares about protecting).
Hopefully the brinksmanship going on now is really just a way of bettering the NATO negotiating position about who, with federalization, will really control which province. I have a hope the negotiations are down to one particular province now; the sticking point far from the current front. I can see that being worked out. Maybe UN forces can patrol the area of the sticking point.
The russophobic rhetoric about how federalization would put all of Ukraine into Russian hands is based on the idea that the pro-Russian provinces are the richest and, if they stopped paying federal taxes, which they probably would, Kiev and western Ukraine would still collapse and would need to be kept as a ward of the US taxpayers.
But there is no other alternative. That was clear from the moment of the revolution.
Another question is how would the US save face after such speeches as the one John Kerry just gave.
The answer could be found inside the intrigues involving the much talked about potential overthrow of Poroshenko whom John Kerry just showed so much solidarity with.
The US could even stage manage his supposed overthrow, hopefully keeping him alive via a midnight escape to the west, and then express no support for whomever takes over. The US could even actively help his people defend themselves as they step back "in shock".
This would allow the US to work with Russia on federalization, which would mostly nullify that new coup government the US no longer accepts.
The vast majority of Ukrainians expect federalization as the end result. They are not stupid. They know this is all about the Petrodollar.
Meanwhile, is the US now conducting its final attack on the Assad regime in Syria according to Ann Marie Slaughter's formular of conducting parallel war if Russia advances in Ukraine? Will Damascus fall at any time now?
Posted by: Petrodollar System | Feb 5 2015 13:39 utc | 3
anotherje(rko)ff @ 1
It lies about it, because it can.
write on, bro, write on
Posted by: john | Feb 5 2015 13:41 utc | 4
Is more chaos not just what the US Empire wants ? "Divide & Conquer", right ? And that chaos would/is bound to spill over into Russia.
"Mission Accomplished", right ?
Posted by: Willy2 | Feb 5 2015 13:47 utc | 5
I see a much darker scenario for Europe. Ukraine collapsing (financially) means that the ukrainians will resort to more desparate measures. Then the Ukraine will no longer be able to pay for its russian gas and the Ukraine will try to steal that natural gas that's flowing into the rest of Europe. (Those pipelines run through Ukraine, remember ?). Then you can bet your bottom dollar what the next step will be of Russia: Turn off the gas !!!!
Posted by: Willy2 | Feb 5 2015 14:05 utc | 6
Posted by: Petrodollar System | Feb 5, 2015 8:39:39 AM | 3
If Russia decides that is is attacked by NATO and not just threatened by a NATO proxy force within Ukraine and decides to counterattack, then what? Where to end? So much for the feasability of NATO weapons in Ukraine - some are supposed to be there already.
The vast majority of Ukrainians expect federalization as the end result. They are not stupid. They know this is all about the Petrodollar.
Not really. It is about Russian influence in South East Europe via gas pipelines. A Russia friendly government in Kiew and federalization would be not an issue apart from Western Ukraine that does have close connections with the EU.
Hopefully the brinksmanship going on now is really just a way of bettering the NATO negotiating position about who, with federalization, will really control which province. I have a hope the negotiations are down to one particular province now; the sticking point far from the current front. I can see that being worked out. Maybe UN forces can patrol the area of the sticking point.
I doubt that very much as no one wants to cede the pipeline routes. Nor is it really open to negotiation as Ukrainian infrastructure and flow of goods are hard to reverse.
US/EU negotiating position just went from bad to worse. UN peacekeepers will be Russian.
Posted by: somebody | Feb 5 2015 14:16 utc | 7
Probably a good thing to begin the breakup of NATO. Greece is perfectly poised to begin the process or if not to demand that NATO assume the full Greek debt as cost of retaining Greek participation as well as funding continuing Greek military budgets plus much of Greek government finance. Who said living in interesting times was a curse?
Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Feb 5 2015 14:50 utc | 8
From a quick posting troll - inaugural member of the 77th battalion? - said:
"the only country involved in a war in a Europe is RussiaAmerica. It's supplying arms, men, logistics. It lies about it, because it can. It's not a democracy, it neveronce was and it {will} never will be {again}. It can do what it likes, it controls the media, the industry (as crappy as it is). It silences any opposition, either through outright murder, by imprisonment or by whatever means necessary. {through horizontal censorship and military/intelligence agency sponsored social media trolling} "
http://pando.com/2015/02/04/the-geometry-of-censorship-and-satire/
Edited for accuracy...
Posted by: ǝn⇂ɔ | Feb 5 2015 15:08 utc | 10
It could not be any more obvious that Kerry is in Kiev to keep the bloody war going. His first words are to back up Ukrainian propaganda and blame the entire conflict on Russia and then set impossible conditions:
pulling back heavy weapons beyond the range of civilian populations, removing foreign troops and heavy equipment from Ukraine, and closing the Russia-Ukraine border.
The only way the conflict gets solved is to deal respectfully with the legitimate grievances of Eastern Ukraine, and that is exactly what Kerry didn't say a word about. The ridiculous appointment by corrupt Kiev of oligarchs as governors in the regions is the biggest offense, and democratic federalization has always been the reasonable solution. Poroshenko is STILL not talking to the East and still calling them terrorists. This is the guy Kerry is hugging and reassuring with these wonderful words: "LET'S HAVE A WAR!"
Kerry can't be that stupid. He must know that even if Kiev gets more 'defensive' weapons one month later and they'll be asking for planes and cruise missiles.
Posted by: dh | Feb 5 2015 15:42 utc | 12
USSA plans to fight Russia down to the last Ukrainian, makes it seem like it's all Russia's fault. I hope Russia wastes no expense in reminding the average Ukrainian who the real monstrous a$$hole is here, pulling conflicts out of thin air and playing everyone like pawns.
I have a sneaking suspicion the Ukraine will ultimately look back with grim nostalgia at the peace they had before the Maidan.
Posted by: farflungstar | Feb 5 2015 15:44 utc | 13
The main objective of the Ukraine putsch appears to be the perpetuation of NATO by manufacturing a war with Russia? Do not ever forget that the Czar of WHITE RUSSIA backed the colonists in the Revolutionary War against England. The same actors of 250 years ago are still the propelling force behind all present weapons manufacture/sales, genocide, violence and civil wars.
22 COUNTRIES NEVER INVADED BY ENGLAND ...
WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE
Posted by: Alberto | Feb 5 2015 15:52 utc | 14
Btw the previous Ukr. currency failed in 1996. It was called the Kupon! (Inflation, mis-management.)
The PTB in the Kiev-coup Gvmt will not hear of federalization. I even doubt anybody could coerce them into agreeing with that. No matter how dominant or powerful one considers the US, the EU, the CIA or whomever. The Donbass is now (and was previous) a cancer to extirpate.
In fact besides cutting off all usual country ties (pensions, teachers salaries, state services, police, taxation..), Kiev has cut off the banks and financial services.
Also, set up checkpoint so that nobody can leave. (A request with a pile of paper has to be made, then, zilch, turned back at the border. Yes a border.) Kiev has also cancelled public bus/train transport, trains no longer run. into the Donbass. Poroshenko when he stated “their children will starve in the cellars while ours go to school” was not kidding. So the Donbass, for ex., can no longer import meds. Besides its hospitals being shelled to bits…
Palestine, anyone?
From the other side, Donesk + Lugansk Rs will not turn back, the killing has been too atrocious. Putin and the W may still be mouthing about a ‘unitary Ukraine’, that ship has sailed. Federalization can take place in certain conditions, not these. I reckon the parties who propose it know that very well.
Posted by: Noirette | Feb 5 2015 16:02 utc | 15
@6 This is why I don't think the Russians have been more active. A collapse in Kiev will leave an angry and bitter populace behind which will have a hard time moving East. I suspect a sense of national betrayal to develop in greater Kiev against the West. They will say, "the jews betrayed us," because that is traditional and create terrorist operations against nominally anti-Russian countries such as Poland who won't be interested in helping Kiev when the going gets tough.
Posted by: NotTimothyGeithner | Feb 5 2015 16:03 utc | 16
Noirette @ 15..."Palestine, anyone?"
Remarkably similar, Just a bigger open-air prison.
Posted by: ben | Feb 5 2015 16:26 utc | 17
I actually believe that the tide is turning against nato. Open supply of arms would, imho, make the population in western ukraine go and throw poroshenko from the rooftop - people are not so stupid that they wouldn't notice that the us uses them as cannon fodder to fight its wars, like they do everywhere else on the globe. it's just my opinion but i believe that among what used to be the soviet countries, there's still somewhat more sensitivity and insight for the evil ways of the us empire.
So to me, this merkel-hollande-kerry visits look more like a panicked effort to either gain time or push for a ceasefire and maybe even federalization before the ukrainian nazi militias are obsolete and the country takes a reconquista coup from their own population.
Should there come an anti-maidan with support of the sensible parts of the ukrainian army, the whole country might be back under russian influence for some time. The western politicians are trying to avoid that if possible.
The way the russians have played this game thus for I am firmly convinced that they'll know how to play this, now advantage, for the best.
Posted by: radiator | Feb 5 2015 16:57 utc | 18
@Noirette#15 - You are right about Kiev's attitude to federalism. Is there a disconnect here?
Having watched Willy Wonka's press conference with Kerry, Porky was reminded that Donbass should have a special status. But I noticed in his earlier interview with Germany's Welt newspaper, the idea of federalism was rejected by Poroshenko as a solution to separatist demands. Has he now been publicly put in his place by Kerry, or are the aims of Kiev disconnected from Washington? Does Porky fear being turned into bacon if he caves in to the will of the East; to being dragged through the streets by the same fun loving criminals used to bring down his predecessor?
Just who really can control the spirits unleashed?
Posted by: Pat Bateman | Feb 5 2015 17:15 utc | 19
Well...this is kinda interesting:
AJC calls for western support of UkraineThe American Jewish Committee concluded a solidarity mission to Ukraine on Thursday, expressing its support for the former Soviet republic in its conflict with Russia.
"First and foremost, we visited Kiev to express our ongoing solidarity with, and support for, the Ukrainian quest to chart its own destiny," AJC Executive Director David Harris said in a statement.
"We applaud the current government's determination in the face of overwhelming adversity. With so much at stake for Ukraine and regional and global security, it is critical that Western governments respond with appropriate support for the country. This is nothing less than a defining era."
The delegation met with senior officials -including security officials and Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk- as well as Jewish leaders, the American organization said in a statement.
Among the topics discussed were "financial, military, and other forms of international support needed by Ukraine" and the well-being of Ukrainian Jewry, the AJC stated.
Don't know about you, but I find this support for the Kiev government (which obviously has some radical right-wing elements) by a Jewish Association truly remarkable, if not stunning.
UNLESS they're doing it guided by "some higher interest"...
Posted by: S-true | Feb 5 2015 17:40 utc | 20
The reason Ukraine is unlikely to become an Israel/Palestine situation is that Ukraine would need far, far more than the $3B a year which Israel requires. It would require at least $20B a year plus 100B to 200B euro down payment - and Kiev isn't defending itself vs. half-naked salafists.
My view is still that the vast majority of Ukrainians are not for either side - they just want to be able to make a living and be left alone. The ongoing economic deterioration in Kievan Ukraine will force them to make a decision one way or the other.
Posted by: ǝn⇂ɔ | Feb 5 2015 17:40 utc | 21
Bernard asks " So who's plan is this? ". My guess: Ashton Carter
Posted by: erichwwk | Feb 5 2015 18:01 utc | 22
@18 I think Russia will dump a huge portion of the Ukraine. It's way too much trouble and expense. Let it be a NATO problem. All the propaganda in the world has led to anti-Eu Greece, soon to be Spain, Italy bugging out, a panicked SE Europe, and Cameron's only hope in May is Scotland settling on a course of secession and not voting or releasing the Chilcott report. Europe had an opportunity to not be the U.S.'s puppets. Why not just let them twist in the wind? Every Western leader blaming Putin for MH117 produced nothing after all.
Posted by: NotTimothyGeithner | Feb 5 2015 18:02 utc | 23
@1 "[Russia] controls the media" It doesn't control the AWACS surveillance system circulating the area. If anybody knows about the Russian "invasion" they would. But not a peep from that quarter. Just rumours and slanders from russophobes. Why is that?
Posted by: ruralito | Feb 5 2015 18:06 utc | 24
addendum #18
this fortruss post pretty much sums it up. Ukrainian army is defeated and now offering a "transdniestr" republic, as proposed in the posts that b added, is the desperate try to keep pro-russian (political, social, military) forces from taking back/over the *whole* of ukraine. But my guess is, russia won't fall for it. The west waged the war so now they'll get their fair share: nothing. At least the would seem fair.
Posted by: radiator | Feb 5 2015 18:11 utc | 25
Posted by: Pat Bateman | Feb 5, 2015 12:15:54 PM | 19
The US states department is not terribly subtle about it
State Department Ukraine on US President Harding - scroll down for the English version
Many of these friends caused issues for Harding and a few scandals arose. The most famous was the Teapot Dome scandal. Albert Fall, Harding's Secretary of the Interior, secretly sold the rights to oil reserves in Teapot Dome, Wyoming in exchange for money and cattle. He was caught and sentenced to jail. Several of Harding's Cabinet members eventually served prison time for various crimes, and at least one person committed suicide. For this reason, Harding has been primarily remembered as a president who fostered a culture of corruption.As news began to leak out relating to various scandals in his Cabinet, Harding decided to take a long journey across the country to give a series of speeches, traveling as far away as Alaska. His health noticeably declined on this trip, and on August 2, 1923, he died in San Francisco of a heart attack.
Posted by: somebody | Feb 5 2015 18:14 utc | 26
#23 well imho having a nato controlled portion of ukraine nearby would be a danger and defeat for russia. it's already bad enough to have poland and the baltics under nato control... i guess they'd make other concessions, have some persona non grata in the ukrainian government or whatever, as long as they can make sure that ukraine stays militarily neutral. the best outcome for russia would surely be a somewhat federalized but in any case unified ukraine that's not a member or associate of nato. soon they'll have the means to accomplish exactly this (would be my guess).
Posted by: radiator | Feb 5 2015 18:15 utc | 27
BBC World Service just reported that Ukraine's currency has depreciated 30% in the last 3 hours.
Posted by: okie farmer | Feb 5 2015 18:21 utc | 28
Boehner just announced Pope Francis will address Congress in September.
Posted by: okie farmer | Feb 5 2015 18:52 utc | 29
@27 It wouldn't be controlled. Those nazis aren't going anywhere, and they won't be calm. The Russians are already watching the border. NATO, if it was there, would be policing which domestic populations aren't going to go for. The PLO and the Kurds in the 70's will be the model for the Azov battalion types. In the absence of a renewed Bandaristan, they will seek revenge on their allies who will be perceived as having abandoned them. After all, Bin Laden was largely teed off by not being given the presidential medal of freedom for his role in fighting the Soviets.
Posted by: NotTimothyGeithner | Feb 5 2015 18:53 utc | 30
The plan is for war in Ukraine, Moldova and inside Russia if possible. The USA doesn't really want war in UK, Germany or France. It's to be a limited war, a fast food war but in ebbs and flows that helps the economy grow stupid doncha know?
Posted by: Fernando | Feb 5 2015 19:01 utc | 31
The Clash of Civilizations never went away; it was tamped down for a while by realists who avoided a nuclear war between the West and the East. This century ideologues and true believers seized power in the West. Today it is everybody for themselves. Aggregating wealth, flushing sovereign government down the toilet, regime change and chaos are the goals of the Western Rulers. It all has come together in the Ukraine. The realist position is a neutral federated Ukraine. Instead a civil war was started and prodded along until mankind is just one mistake away from Armageddon.
Posted by: VietnamVet | Feb 5 2015 19:40 utc | 32
Has anyone noticed that exactly 15 years have passed today from the infamous Novye Aldi massacre, when Russian internal troops from St. Petersburg have slaughtered 60 civilians during "cleansing" of the Chechen village? None of them was actually brought to justice.
Posted by: Ulster | Feb 5 2015 19:42 utc | 33
thanks b.
b quote "I have my doubts about their(germany/france) independence though and it may be that their appearance is is just part of the show." that is how i see it too. in fact, i wouldn't be surprised if they are delivering the usa message to putin directly.. i don't think they represent europe. that is for sure..
@15 noirette.. every one ought to read your post over a few times. that is exactly how i see it too.. eastern ukraine aka 'palestine'.. they are not interested in peace. it is like hearing israel say they are interested in peace.. there is only so much bullshit a person can tolerate listening to...
Posted by: james | Feb 5 2015 19:53 utc | 34
Ulster 33
Is one to assume that Russia executing 60 civilians is equivalent to Ukraine slaughter of it's own citizens by a putsch installed banker government? Equivalent to USofA killing several million brown people in the Middle East?
Everything is about to 'come down!' Do you really think Russia will cede its only fresh water military base?
I was expecting a better class of troll in this comments section. Wikipedia as an impeachable source? Really?
Posted by: Alberto | Feb 5 2015 19:54 utc | 35
@35 If you prefer an official ruling of the European Court of Human Rights, it's linked to the article as well. And it's only one massacre, overall during war in Chechnya the Russian army killed around 100'000 civilians.
Posted by: Ulster | Feb 5 2015 20:26 utc | 36
I don't know much about Ukraine, in comparison to others here, but I would have thought it obvious that if Merkel, Hollande and Kerry are in Kiev, it is because the Kiev regime is on the point of collapse, as already appreciated by b and others.
The collapse is military, not financial, even if Ukraine is also bankrupt. Otherwise immediate presence would not be necessary. Many countries fight wars while being bankrupt.
The US talks of offering defensive arms. That seems inappropriate, a proposal more adapted to Syria. Ukraine has plenty of arms, indeed manufactures them. The problem is human, not weapon-related. Conscript Ukrainians are fleeing in large numbers. No-one wants to fight for Kiev.
I doubt that Russia is intervening actively, in the sense of a desire to integrate Novorussiya into Russia. I recall the discussions last autumn, where the lack of interest for Putin was emphasised. Nevertheless Russia is obligated to help its relatives, and equally, if they don't do it, it would be a shame. I don't see any way that Russia has passed beyond what is necessary to help their relatives.
One could compare to the Kurds, where it was thought OK for the Peshmerga to depart from Erbil to help their relatives far away in Kobani.
Posted by: Laguerre | Feb 5 2015 20:29 utc | 37
@25 No doubt that Kulikov knows what he's saying about the war in "highly populated areas" as he was commanding Russian forces in Chechnya. He chose tactics that was indeed much more effective compared to the one Ukrainians now use in Donbass - Russians in Chechnya just bombed everything from artillery and air until it was burned to the ground (but a high number of civilian casualties was never a significant problem for Russian army).
But I would be still skeptical as it comes to Ukrainian army "being close to defeat". Everyone in Russia - and on MoA - was repeating this mantra over and over again since April last year. Ukraine was "close to defeat" in April, in August, in November and so on. But since then the Russia backed separatist made literally no progress, neither military, nor political.
Posted by: Ulster | Feb 5 2015 20:37 utc | 38
@37 Kerry and the gang might not be offering new arms as much as trying to find an explanation for existing arms especially if the current Ukranianian cauldron surrenders.
Posted by: NotTimothyGeithner | Feb 5 2015 20:41 utc | 39
Just read that Ukraine nazis will start murdering soldiers that refuse to wage war in the east.
Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 5 2015 20:58 utc | 40
@ Ulcers "But since then the Russia backed separatist made literally no progress, neither military, nor political."
So, Kiev doesn't need military supplies from the west?
Posted by: ruralito | Feb 5 2015 21:27 utc | 41
The crisis in Ukraine has nothing to do with "freedom and democracy" (or free-dumb and demo-crazy as I like to call it). The root cause of the crisis is the overwhelming desire on the part of the US to prevent a Eurasian integration project dominated by the Russian Federation in the post-Soviet space. It is the US/EU who have interfered in Ukraine's internal affairs and are destabilising Ukraine not Russia. The criminal nature of the Ukrainian government is well known and understood by US and EU policy makers but their crimes are being downplayed or totally ignored. Any decent human being with a conscience would understand that it is the US-led "democratic" project that is responsible for the bloodshed in Ukraine.
Posted by: Justin O | Feb 5 2015 21:29 utc | 42
@Ulter:
You must be Ukrainian. I don't think even Poles or Latvians would harp on the Chechen wars while the UAF are intensively bombarding populated areas of Donbass. In any case, there is absolutely no comparison between what the junta is doing and what Russia did in Chechnya. Russia was brutal with Chechnya yes, but there was no other way of putting down the foreign jihadists. Those were brutal wars, but every action Russia took had a military purpose. In contrast, Kiev's murder of civilians and destruction of infrastructure, kindergartens, schools, and hospitals has absolutely no military purpose. It is genocide, plain and simple. The objective was to eliminate Ukrainians who identify as Russian from Ukraine, because only Ukrainians who identify as Russian resist fascism and hence the junta. But now Kiev knows that it has lost the Donbass. The bombing is now done out of nothing but spite: if Ukrainians can't have Donbass, they will leave Novorossiyans with a wasteland.
New York Observer:
The New Ukraine Is Run by Rogues, Sexpots, Warlords, Lunatics and Oligarchs
On January 5, the new minister for economy appointed former Estonian Jaanika Merilo—a young dark-haired beauty—as his advisor on foreign investments, improvement of business climate in Ukraine, coordination of international programs and so on. Directly after her appointment, the young lady put online not her resume or a program for Ukrainian financial stabilization but a series of candid shots that display her long legs, plump lips and prominent cleavage. In some shots, she places a knife to her lips a la Angelina Jolie and sits on the chair a la Sharon Stone. …The people now running the Ukraine are more psychotic than the original Nazis ever were. America's Great Generation who fought against the Nazis must be turning in their graves.One new face in the Rada—leader of the Right Sector ultra-nationalist party and former warlord Dmytro Yarosh—admitted in a January interview with Ukrainian TV that he caresses a real hand grenade in his pocket while inside the Rada. Because he is MP, the security personnel has no right to check his pockets. They just ask if he has anything dangerous on his person and he says no. The reason to have a hand grenade on his body is that there are too many enemies of Ukraine within the MP crowding him during the voting process. He is not afraid, of course. But when the time comes, he will use this grenade and with a bit of luck he will take a lot of them with him if he dies.
From the kiev apologist:
Anton Shekhovtsov
A year ago, I was debating with Putin's apologist Stephen Cohen, after having experienced choking on tear gas in Kyiv
https://twitter.com/A_SHEKH0VTS0V/status/561349213586735104
But supporting "kiev" murdering civilians is ok?
Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 5 2015 21:45 utc | 44
@9 steve "$US strength is unsustainable without sustained war." - Hear! Hear!
Posted by: gersen | Feb 5 2015 22:04 utc | 45
@Anonymous #44:
It turns out that Cohen is a lousy apologist: he is not even willing to call the February Kiev coup a coup:
What Steven F. Cohen & Other Liberals Get Wrong About Obama & Ukraine’s War
Typical on the liberal side is Professor Steven F. Cohen, a supposed Russia-expert, who sometimes writes articles for his wife’s liberal magazine (which she, Katrina vanden Heuvel, owns), The Nation, and plays dumb about Obama’s anti-Russian coup in Ukraine, and he even says, on Amy Goodman’s February 3rd “Democracy Now!”: “Many people have argued that the United States organized a coup in February to overthrow the president of Ukraine and bring to power of this new pro-American, pro-Western government. I do not know if that’s true.”So it turns out that Cohen is a gatekeeper. That explains why, as far as i know, he's the only non-Russophobic Russia "expert" who is allowed to appear on US TV.
@43
"You must be Ukrainian. I don't think even Poles or Latvians would harp on the Chechen wars."
And what if I'm Russian? Or Tadjik? Or Armenian? Or Chechen possibly?
"every action Russia took had a military purpose"
Can you explain the "military purpose" of massacres in Samashki or Novye Aldi where not a single rebel was present and all the victims were civilians?
"putting down the foreign jihadists"
First Chechen war had nothing to do with islamism, it was purely for independence of Chechnya.
Posted by: Ulster | Feb 5 2015 22:12 utc | 47
@43 "he caresses a real hand grenade in his pocket while inside the Rada"
Do you realize that this is a complete bullshit that was debunked even before it became popular in English-language circles and this means that your sources are equally reliable as David Icke, the anti-vaccination movement or Flat Earth Society?
Posted by: Ulster | Feb 5 2015 22:16 utc | 48
@Demian@43
Ulster isn't Ukrainian. He's either paid to be an idiot...or he does it free of charge. On his planet (population 1) everything evil is directly traced to Russia. I consider him to be funnier than tv.
Posted by: Scott | Feb 5 2015 22:16 utc | 49
@43 I'll disagree about the Kiev government being crazier than the nazis. The spreadsheet fascists aren't in Kiev to keep watch on the neoBandarists. Himmler and his ilk had to keep up appearances for the German aristocrats. Killing people on a spreadsheet is fine for many as long as they don't have to see it, but take Oscar Schindler or the men behind the plot to kill Hitler in the bunker. When the mayhem began to reach them, they moved against the Nazis who reviled in carnage. When Schindler was being provided with slave labor, he didn't do much complaining.
Kiev is isolated from those people, and the crazies are free to behave the way they want. I'm positive Hillary and Obama would be devastated if they met victims of their crimes. They may not recognize their complicity, but I'm sure they would be moved in the moment. Even when we see elites falling from grace over consensual extramarital affairs, the elites overlook other crimes because they are distant and don't see how those crimes affect them.
Kiev knows they aren't being watched after Odessa and MH17. The Western technocrats don't want to know.
Posted by: NotTimothyGeithner | Feb 5 2015 22:17 utc | 50
b quotes that "Merkel-Hollande plan freezes #Ukraine conflict along lines of Transdniester"
Since the Dniester River is about 250 kilometers west of the Crimea - what is the point? To entice Russia to cede their biggest warm water port to NATO? In exchange for what? I think that Putin passed the tipping point some time ago; and is rightfully convinced that all sectors of power in Washington D.C. endorse - in practice - regime change in Russia and it's conversion into a resources colony for the West. Putin needs a buffer against NATO, but one extending almost all the way to Romania is a bit too much, n'est ce pas?
Posted by: gersen | Feb 5 2015 22:24 utc | 51
I find all the "diplomatic" scurrying around to be interesting. I also find the people in Kiev being shown where to take shelter in "case" of bombs to be interesting. I also find it interesting who has been put in charge of nuclear material. Am I the only one who smells a coming false flag? Gosh...I wonder who will be blamed? This might be a pivotal weekend boys and girls.
Posted by: Scott | Feb 5 2015 22:31 utc | 52
The Ukranian army is facing annihilation. The NRF can now go on the offensive facing little to no resistance. It's possible they could march on Kiev and take Yats and Turchoniv and the rest of the fascist leadership alive-this is the wests worst nightmare. I suspect it's time for operation doomsday.
Posted by: Nana2007 | Feb 5 2015 22:49 utc | 53
@NotTimothyGeithner #51:
I'll disagree about the Kiev government being crazier than the nazis.German nationalism makes sense, because Germany is a great nation. Ukrainian nationalism makes no sense at all, because not only is Ukraine not a great nation — it's not even a nation. It is an artificial construct clumped together from parts of other countries. The reason that the Banderites are so dead set against federalization is that they realize this, and they want to solve the problem by forcibly Ukrainizing all Ukrainian citizens who are not ethnically and/or culturally Ukrainian.
I'm positive Hillary and Obama would be devastated if they met victims of their crimes.I seriously doubt that. They know the consequences of their actions. They just place no value on human life. They are both psychopaths. Hillary with her joke "We came, we saw, he died"; Obama with his pride about his personally going over the White House kill list.
@Scott #52:
This might be a pivotal weekend boys and girls.Yes, that's what Russian bloggers are saying. A Russian general said on Russian TV that NAF should advance to the administrative borders of DPR and LPR.
Israel likes to talk about "facts on the ground". It doesn't seem to have sunk into the Obama regime yet that the facts on the ground in Donbass are not in its favor. Obama and Kerry continue their bluster.
The Empire's fall back plan, in case it could not hold on to the Ukraine, is perpetual chaos in the area between NATO and Russia. But I think that if Russia was able to pacify Chechnya, it will be able to eventually pacify Ukraine. Of course, that will largely depend on the Ukrainians coming to their senses. That process will begin by their suffering a decisive military defeat won by non-fascist Ukrainians. Hopefully that will teach them that being a fascist is a losing proposition.
@Demian@54
I'm not sure an advance by the NAF is a good idea. It opens up your flanks and stretches your supply line. I think it was the Duke of Wellington who said professionals talk logistics. And all that doesn't factor in the weather and road conditions. I'm not sure at this point that they want Poro to fall. I suspect whoever replaces him will be more of a fanatic. Poro is merely an opportunist. A figurehead perhaps? With all the posing, nonsensical statements and "diplomatic" two step going on...I would watch Putin. Whatever he does will be thought through, pragmatic and measured. I could see him playing a bit of hardball...but giving the Europeans a face saving way out. I can see an attempt to isolate the Fourth Reich and force it to go it alone? Or act irrationally. I suspect the latter more likely. And that may well further isolate it. Europe has it's hands full now and I doubt they want this to spin out of control. But that's just one old country boys take on this.
Posted by: Scott | Feb 5 2015 23:46 utc | 55
While it may be fun for the militarists in NATO to continue to game the situation as an exercise in modern warfare, that does not involve crazed suicide bombers, it must be getting to the point where it may be too damn hot.
Two ideas, gratis, one for each side.
West: Come clean on MH17, take down whatever faction/factions in Kiev that may be convenient for this olive branch to your hated Pootine.
Russia: If the West does not come to its senses, start talking to Iran on mutual defense interests. Maybe have a airbase or two situated there.
Posted by: YY | Feb 6 2015 0:16 utc | 56
It was sadly comical the other day seeing the pathetic lineup of young Ukrainian conscripts, ready to be thrown into a civil war conjured up by the great, sacrosanct US empire. I think that instead of ripping these poor, downtrodden youth from their loving parents, and sacrificing them on the alter of USA full spectrum dominance; they should instead turn loose one of those battle ready, highly skilled, rapid deployment units of the NATO persuasion. If it's such a defining moment in history, where Russian aggression is set to move westward, subsuming Europe in it's path, why not deploy the cream of the crop, those fearsome NATO rapid deployment units to save western civilization from the Eastern Barbarians.
I don't think that the suave European parents of soldiers would object in the least if their sons and daughters were sent to the front lines of such an important project. What could be more vital than to save the West from being overrun by the revanchist USSR?
Posted by: Kraken | Feb 6 2015 0:16 utc | 57
#Scott #55:
It's not clear that Poroshenko would fall if the NAF advance to the borders of the people's republics. Also, there are reports in the runet that a coup is already planned for February 22, so Poroshenko may fall even if NAF stop advancing. My impression is that NAF should be able to advance to the borders without running into logistical difficulties. Advancing beyond the borders is another matter. Of course, the NAF needs to destroy the forces in the Debaltsevo cauldron first. I get the impression that they have not closed the cauldron because they are playing with the Ukies, like a cat with a mouse.
I think there is a general feeling that the people's republics should comprise all of the territory of the Donetsk and Lugansk provinces.
Ulster at 48 --
I myself posted the article that Demian cites when it first appeared; it's a memorable title, no?
D's extract makes it clear -- he himself said this, on Ukrainian TV. I believe I posted a short article from Fort Russ on the interview itself. I am more than glad to supply it -- should you have any actual evidence that his hand-grenade story is untrue. Say, his own retraction of his own words, perhaps? You say, debunked, but I don't see debunked.
NTG at 50 -- Count von Stauffenburg and his elite military and civil plotters were concerned about the destruction of the Wehrmacht and Germany, not so much the deaths of concentration camp prisoners. Our current crop of fascists have a lot of catching up to do before any comparison can be made to their old allies. Nowhere near as brutal, crazy, or thankfully as capable.
Scott at 52 -- the Ukraine gave up it's nukes as part of the dissolution of the Union. But you are right in asking, in effect, who is actually in charge, and in saying we're likely to find out soon.
D at 54 -- Defeat is coming soon, it remains to be seen what lessons the junta draws from it. Probably not the right ones, and the US desire to keep the region will enable further bad decisions.
Laguerre at 37 -- You certainly seem to have a good grasp of what's going on, I think the Kurds are a workable analogy. Though as some along here noted, both combatants are reasonably well stocked and with hardware and industrial, unlike the Kurds or Palestinians. The closeness of the Donbas to Russia adds another level of importance.
Posted by: rufus magister | Feb 6 2015 0:23 utc | 59
@rufus@ 59
I worded that poorly. I meant spent fuel and nuclear waste was now to be guarded by National Guard. I knew they had no nuke weaponry in house. It came to mind when I saw Kiev issuing bomb shelter info to residents. I thought...false flag? "dirty bomb"?
@Demian@ 58
I agree Poro may fall regardless of what the NAF does. I suspect that it's not if but when. And as to advancing to borders? It may be logistically feasible but is it strategically needed? I'm not sure. The debacle in Debaltsevo may gain at the negotiating table what would otherwise cost blood. But first things first. Eliminate the cauldron then decide what to do. And I keep getting a feeling something wicked this way comes this weekend. The Fourth Reich needs it to justify it's bloodlust and to scare the Europeans.
Posted by: Scott | Feb 6 2015 0:48 utc | 61
Posted by: Kraken | Feb 5, 2015 7:16:58 PM | 57
Amen.
Talk is so-o cheap.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 6 2015 1:09 utc | 62
@rufus magister #59:
Our current crop of fascists have a lot of catching up to do before any comparison can be made to their old allies. Nowhere near as brutal, crazy, or thankfully as capable.I obviously agree with you about the "capable" part. But I really don't see how you can make your other two claims. How can one be more brutal than burning people alive as the Ukrainian nationalists did with the Odessa Khatyn? In Khatyn, Ukrainian nationalist Nazi collaborators forced people into a building and then set it on fire. That is exactly what Ukrainian nationalists did in May of last year in Odeassa. Right Sector is composed of exactly the same people as the Ukrainian nationalists who collaborated with the Nazis during World War II. I hope you don't mean to suggest that Ukrainian Nazi collaborators were less brutal and crazy than the Nazis themselves. Thus, your claim that today's Ukrainian nationalists are [nowhere near as brutal, crazy" as the Nazis is not only false: it is incoherent.
Kiev bloggers joke: "A shell hit the hospital Donetsk. Get well, shell." I think this goes completely beyond the limit.So yes, Ukrainian nationalists are more depraved than the original Nazis were. It is hard for Westerners to accept that, because it is a central dogma of the new Western religion that the Nazis were a unique, absolute evil, to which no other genocidal regimes can be compared, no matter how brutal they are and how depraved and nihilistic their members are.It's hard to imagine that even Nazi newspapers joked this way during World War II. (they strongly denied these facts, as they had some understanding that it (the shelling of hospitals) is "shameful" and "wrong" even for their audience). …
The main thing is not the producer, the main thing – the audience. All they have so – under the laughter, jokes and "culture of laughter carnival" overthrown the legitimate authority, and burned a hundred "Vatnikov" in Odessa, unleashed carnage in the East. And so far it's funny.
Scott at 61 -- I'd forgotten about the waste, and the reactors themselves. Great, first Macedonia, and now this to worry about. Bomb it? More likely fashion a "dirty bomb" from it and accuse Moscow of using tactical nukes.
RT is now reporting that a ceasefire has been reached, and civilians are to be evacuated. There is a 5 Feb. Sitrep now posted at Col. Cassad, it shows a pocket at Ol'khovatka thinly connected by a no-man's land.
Posted by: rufus magister | Feb 6 2015 1:38 utc | 64
Kraken@57-
I think that's exactly the plan. The west has been providing lethal assistance all along- from the sniper rifles at Maidan to the NATO manuals found in the ashes of the Donetsk airport. What the diplomatic scurrying around Kiev suggests is that deployment of rapid response NATO forces is imminent.
Posted by: Nana2007 | Feb 6 2015 1:50 utc | 65
@rufus@ 63
Yep, I thought dirty bomb. Or a false flag while people are evacuating Debaltsevo. Why the cease fire? Kiev doesn't care about Novorussians. The only thing preventing artillery IS the civilians. Once they're gone...POOF there goes the Ukies. I can't shake this feeling. All the signs are there. False diplomacy, bomb shelter warnings in Kiev, Looming collapse of UAF. Coup? geez...throw in Macedonia and I saw something about unrest in Serbia too. Something is about to blow.
Posted by: Scott | Feb 6 2015 2:00 utc | 66
@rufus@ 63
I doubt a dirty bomb. Good Lord...the Fourth Reich is insane but is it SO insane it thinks that would be believed? Or wouldn't have consequences? I'm watching Russia this weekend. Whatever actions Russia takes will show what was really said in Moscow between Putin and the Three Stooges. I'm also watching Kiev. A coup is coming. Then what? I just hope there are adults somewhere than can give the kids a timeout so this cools off. And I also think I saw israel making nice with Kiev? Khazar go home?
Posted by: Scott | Feb 6 2015 2:14 utc | 67
@rufus magister #59:
Our current crop of fascists have a lot of catching up to do before any comparison can be made to their old allies. Nowhere near as brutal, crazy, or thankfully as capable.I obviously agree with you about the "capable" part. But I really don't see how you can make your other two claims. How can one be more brutal than burning people alive as the Ukrainian nationalists did with the Odessa Khatyn? In Khatyn, Ukrainian nationalist Nazi collaborators forced people into a building and then set it on fire. That is exactly what Ukrainian nationalists did in May of last year in Odeassa. Right Sector is composed of exactly the same people as the Ukrainian nationalists who collaborated with the Nazis during World War II. I hope you don't mean to suggest that Ukrainian Nazi collaborators were less brutal and crazy than the Nazis themselves. Thus, your claim that today's Ukrainian nationalists are [nowhere near as brutal, crazy" as the Nazis is not only false: it is incoherent.
Carnival of wild baboonsSo yes, Ukrainian nationalists are more depraved than the original Nazis were. It is hard for Westerners to accept that, because it is a central dogma of the new Western religion that the Nazis were a unique, absolute evil, to which no other genocidal regimes can be compared, no matter how brutal they are and how depraved and nihilistic their members are.Kiev bloggers joke: "A shell hit the hospital Donetsk. Get well, shell." I think this goes completely beyond the limit.
It's hard to imagine that even Nazi newspapers joked this way during World War II. (they strongly denied these facts, as they had some understanding that it (the shelling of hospitals) is "shameful" and "wrong" even for their audience). …
The main thing is not the producer, the main thing – the audience. All they have so – under the laughter, jokes and "culture of laughter carnival" overthrown the legitimate authority, and burned a hundred "Vatnikov" in Odessa, unleashed carnage in the East. And so far it's funny.
(I didn't give a link to that quote (which is in Russian) because when I did, the post got blocked.)
This is truly strange- how is it the UAF gets to call a time out every time they're about to get properly f***ed. Is Hunter Biden going to walk out of there? Thank goodness the OSCE is there to referee and insure nothing untoward happens.
Posted by: Nana2007 | Feb 6 2015 2:27 utc | 69
Kraken@57-I think that's exactly the plan... What the diplomatic scurrying around Kiev suggests is that deployment of rapid response NATO forces is imminent.
Posted by: Nana2007 | Feb 5, 2015 8:50:30 PM | 64
Kraken was being amusing. The last thing NATO's wusses and pussies would be contemplating is a hostile deployment to Russia's sphere of military dominance. NATO can't afford to hang its reputation out to dry, by being creamed by Russia, and won't.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 6 2015 2:32 utc | 70
Sorry@68 referring to the ceasefire-
Ukraine SITREP: *Extremely* dangerous situation in Debaltsevo The Novorussian and the junta have agreed to a cease-fire to allow the civilian population to leave Debaltsevo. In theory, each civilian will get to chose whether he/she wants to be evacuated to Novorussia or to the Nazi-occupied Ukraine. The convoy of refugees will be escorted by senior OSCE officials. Both sides to the conflict have pledged not to open fire during the time needed for this operation. Now consider this:1) The only thing protecting the junta forces are, precisely, these civilians. If these civilians leave, then Debaltsevo will turn into Saur Mogila. Until now, the Novorussians have advanced rather slowly precisely because they could not use the full power of their artillery to soften up the well dug-in junta forces. But thanks to the Voentorg, the Novorussians now have plenty of firepower now and if they decide to really open up upon the junta forces the latter will suffer the same devastating consequences as their (now dead) colleagues in Saur Mogila. Everybody understands that.
2) Tonight the junta has used white phosphorus again, and in the recent days they have used both ballistic missiles and cluster munitions. Why this sudden concern with the Debaltsevo civilians (whom the Nazis consider as "bugs" anyway)? Does anybody really believe that the Nazi freaks in Kiev care for Novorussian civilians?!
3) Kerry, Hollande and Merkel were in Kiev today. The latter two will be in Moscow tomorrow. In Germany, the Munich Security Conference is meeting. NATO is still claiming that "hundreds and hundreds" of Russian Federation soldiers are operating in Novorussia. While some US officials speak of sending "lethal aid" to the junta, others seem to oppose it.
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com
Posted by: Nana2007 | Feb 6 2015 2:33 utc | 71
@69- I understood he was being sarcastic thanks. If I'm not mistaken the last year , or twenty years, has been about creating a hostile environment on Russia's border. And it's your contention that after taking it to this level the US will pull back and apologize for the misunderstanding and everything will be square?
Posted by: Nana2007 | Feb 6 2015 2:39 utc | 72
Nana2007 at 64 -- Early insertion of US or NATO ground troops, even in small nos., not in line with the recent M.O., arms to Kiev is not yet official, though I'd say it's likely. But of course, one needs trainers for the techs and operators. EU is not likely to go beyond PR sanctions.
Posted by: rufus magister | Feb 6 2015 3:00 utc | 73
@Nana2007 #70:
Yes, everyone expects the junta to pull a false flag soon (as the Saker says in the part you didn't quote), but the junta has pulled at least three false flags already (MH17, the shelling of a bus, the shelling of a residential area in Mariopul), but none of those did the junta much good. (The downing of MH17 did enable the US to get the EU to impose more sanctions on Russia, though.)
I think that a sufficient amount of Westerners have realized by now that the junta is brutally killing its own people, whereas the NAF are just trying to defend their people. The illusion that this is not the case is maintained by politicians and the corporate media never speaking the truth about this. But because many Westerners are coming to understand the true nature of the Kiev regime (Europeans anyway, if not Anglos), I think that further false flags are going to have limited effectiveness.
Demian at 67 --
As abhorrent as events like the ProfSoyuz bldg. and other atrocities are, they are at present still somewhat out of the ordinary. No concentration camps, no death camps. No "Night of the Long Knives" yet, the regime is not far along of its trajectory of decay and destruction. They have the capacity to get that crazy, granted. But if maybe in possession of means, not yet the opportunity.
I'd prefer that you be correct about the tempo, that the UAF can significantly expand its zone of control, but deliberate movement like Scott suggests might be more prudent.
Nana2007 at 68 --
Vary astute about the time-outs. Do I detect a note of sarcasm about the revered OSCE?
Posted by: rufus magister | Feb 6 2015 3:20 utc | 75
Rufus@72
I realize it's not official but NATO has been assisting all along. General Breedlove has been all over the place in Ukraine lately-he even handed out trashy medals to injured cyborgs. And the recent announcement of NATO command center build ups:
The command centers are intended partly as a warning to Russia and a reassurance to NATO allies who have become increasingly jittery following Moscow’s aggressive actions in Ukraine and elsewhere.The creation of the spearhead rapid-response force, designed to mobilize within two days in case of a belligerent move by an adversary, is the highest-profile move by NATO to bolster its defenses in the aftermath of Russia’s takeover of Crimea and its incursions into eastern Ukraine, which Moscow denies.
And the fact that there won't be many new Ukrainian troops to arm all leads me to believe that the US is pressing for NATO to lead the charge. But granted hopefully the EU is too smart to be next in line as US canon fodder.
Demian@73- good points I hope you"re right.
Posted by: Nana2007 | Feb 6 2015 3:21 utc | 76
Posted by: Nana2007 | Feb 5, 2015 9:39:07 PM | 71
No. They won't pull back and apologize. They'll do what cowards usually do...
-keep bullying their Kiev junta
-keep lying about Kiev's massacres
-keep smearing Putin and blaming him for Kiev's crimes
-keep reinforcing the meme that Putin is so evil that Russia should be Iraqified to save it from Putin
-keep blaming anyone and everyone but themselves for their angst
-gnash their gums while they dream up more veils and excuses for their depravity.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 6 2015 3:51 utc | 77
There's a piece up at RI that confirms my misgivings re US/NATO:
US arming Ukraine is very likely. When you see a policy discussion report in The New York Times, experience shows the policy is already being conducted covertly and this is just a way to bringing into public view a program that's already been initiated (NATO shell rounds are already detected in Gorlovka, Ukraine). Nobody in Washington imagines with the best of support Kiev forces will be able to win this militarily.Arming of Ukraine is primarily directed against Europeans. Since there is more and more dissension in European ranks from the US' confrontational policy the only way to scare the EU wimps back into a more confrontational position is to turn up the heat and the chaos. (Chief of US Army in the Europe is already awarding medals to crippled Ukrainian soldiers).
This is a clear parallel to the Balkan conflicts. There the United States also needed to demonstrate leadership by escalating conflict and dragging reluctant Europeans with them (bombing Serbs in 1995 and 1999, facilitate an inflow of Islamists to bolster the Bosnian Muslims in Bosnia and Albanian separatists in Serbia, and finally creating a NATO client state in Kosovo)
Perhaps there's more to Hollande/Merkel's presence in Kiev than the good cop bad cop routine. They're on to Moscow tomorrow.
Posted by: Nana2007 | Feb 6 2015 4:04 utc | 78
Demain 67 and rufus 74. There is little doubt that the neoNazi thugs running amok in Ukraine are barely distinguishable from the real thing in Germany 90-to 70 years ago. What does distinguish them is that the German Nazis had total control over the levers of state after 1938; their descendants in Ukraine have not yet achieved total control. Neither the EU nations nor the US is quite ready to support them in their desire to ethnic cleanse Donbas of its Russian population. That is the current political reality. I seriously doubt that Poroshenko shares the Nazi dream of purging 'slavs' from Ukraine. Unfortunatley his ability to negotiate with the Donbas people is seriously circumscribed by the neo-Nazi militias that now make up a big part of his armed forces.
Interesting times to be sure. The US is pushing war in Ukraine but it will come down, it seems to me, how far Obama is willing to accept an alliance with the Nazis. At some point he will have to decide and that time will come when it is no longer possible to hide the fact that war in Ukraine is being pushed by the Nazi forces.
Posted by: ToivoS | Feb 6 2015 4:14 utc | 79
@rufus magister #74:
No concentration camps, no death camps. No "Night of the Long Knives" yet, the regime is not far along of its trajectory of decay and destruction. They have the capacity to get that crazy, granted. But if maybe in possession of means, not yet the opportunity.The junta would do all those things if they could. The reason they don't is (1) as you said at #59, they are not as capable as the Nazis; (2) unlike the Nazis, the Ukraine is not a sovereign nation, but a colony of the US, and USG realizes that the junta setting up concentration and death camps would be bad for PR; (3) the Nazis did not have to worry about the Internet. The bottom line is that the worst thing the Nazis did was to commit genocide, and that is exactly what the Ukrainians are doing now, which means that the Ukrainians are not the least bit better than the Nazis. The western Ukrainians are just picking up where their Banderite grandfathers left off.
Trying to find ways in which the junta is not as bad as the Nazis is a pointless intellectual exercise which just serves to obscure the true nature of Ukrainian nationalism and the junta, IMO.
As for the tempo of the advance: I think that Novorossiya and Russia should set the goal of the DPR and LPR comprising all of the territory of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions of the former Ukraine. How that goal is to be achieved (by a military advance; if so, how quick should it be?; through negotiation; by waiting for the Ukrainian state to collapse) is a separate matter.
There are at least four players here: (1) Russia; (2) USG; (3) the people's republics; (4) the junta. I think it's safe to say that Russia has a significantly better understanding of USG's strategy and overriding goals than USG has of Russia's strategy and overriding goals. The junta is USG's puppet, but the puppet is so crazy that USG's control over it is limited. Russia keeps Novorossiya on a leash, but the leash is not very short. Also, no one knows what the Kremlin's strategy is, whereas everyone who reads this blog knows what USG's strategy is. Finally, USG has not the least bit of concern about Ukrainians, whereas Moscow is deeply concerned about the welfare of Novorossiyans, although it places its geopolitical interests over humanitarian concerns.
As you may have noticed, I do not consider Germany or France to be players here. They could have been, but they left the game when they did not resist pressure from USG for them to act against their own self interest.
"The solution for the Ukraine is simple. Federalization, official acceptance of the Russian language which is spoken in the East and democratic elections of local governors."
Really? After all the atrocities and mass murders committed by the Ukrainian government and Ukrainian nazis, the solution is ... so simple. The author is either extremely naive or extremely underinformed. Both the leaders of Novorussia and ordinary people have repeatedly said that they don't ever want to be part of the illegal neo-nazi government in Kiev. Perhaps "federalization" was still possible before the Odessa massacre. No more.
Posted by: Robert | Feb 6 2015 4:34 utc | 81
02/06/2015-00:22
Representative of Defense Ministry of Donetsk Republic Eduard Basurin says: “The Ukrainian side accepted our offer that we open a passage for the locals to leave Debal`tsevo tomorrow.”
From his words, the locals will be provided busses: “Right now, Donetsk Republic prepares busses and autos to transportat Debal`tsevo locals through a humanitarian corridor to Gorlovka (Donetsk Republic) or Artemovsk (Ukraine).”
02/05/2015-23:04
Combatant Prokhorov informed about situation and clashes on February 5:
“Afternoon (February 4) the Ukrainians tried to seize hamlet Shirokovo (near Mariupol`). The attack was repelled. Battalion “Azov” reported 2 “200th” (killed) and 1 “300th” (wounded) – understated five times.
(February 5) under Mariupol` (information is traditionally scarce from there) border troops were struck in Sartana(?) and positions of the Ukrainian forces in Priovrazh`ye(?). And just one hour ago a Ukrainian patrol was liquidated near Shirokovo. So far, 2 fallen and 2 wounded were reported (understated by multiple times).
Under Debal`tsevo (Chernukhino) a company of 25th battalion “Kiyevskaya Rus`” was surrounded. From 80 men about 40 are alive.
The Ukrainian tried to slip in enforcement disguised under a mission of “Red Cross”. Combatants were indignant, the Ukrainians turned back. The Ukrainians attempted to pass on their own – 4 “KRAZs” (lorry trucks) and 2 tanks. Only 1 tank with wounded returned, everything else was burned.”
Posted by: Fete | Feb 6 2015 4:54 utc | 82
I agree with Demian that the Ukrainian Nazis are if anything more depraved than their erstwhile Hitlerian mentors; the only thing holding them back from exceeding the horrors of the Third Reich is lack of capability, which as ToivoS points out would change if they had more time to consolidate their power and were free from US control. Months ago I posted a link to The Nazis Even Hitler Was Afraid Of, which I humbly resubmit toward this estimation.
Posted by: Vintage Red | Feb 6 2015 4:54 utc | 83
There's a very similar column in Salon:
The choreography at work in the Times report is remarkable even for a paper accustomed to doing what it is told. Michael Gordon, a long-serving defense and security correspondent noted for his obedience, reported the deliberations in Washington (without naming a single source) the same day the Brookings report appeared (and in the same story).First, anyone who continues to mistake a clerk such as Gordon for a journalist must by now be judged irredeemably naive. This is a case study of how the Times functions and the place it occupies in public space. Were Pravda to work similar angles in the old Soviet days, the Times’ Moscow bureau would be all over it for its servitude.
Second and more important, the careful coordination of the disclosures spoon-fed Gordon suggests very strongly that a) public opinion is now being prepared for a new military intervention and b) planning for this intervention is in all likelihood already in motion.
The former IHT foreign correspondent goes on to PLEAD with his fellow Americans to wake the f@ck up, like our brothers and sisters in Greece and Spain are doing spectacularly. Don't see it, though. Instead, at an Iraq 2 moment like this, 'The Sniper' is kicking ass and killing Ayrabs at the box office.
U.S. Pushes For War In Europe and....africa !
*The US military just invaded Liberia. They send in the 101st Airborne Division to Liberia. That’s an elite division of combat and they have no training to provide medical treatment to anyone. They are there to establish a military base in Liberia. And the British are doing the same in Sierra Leone. The French are already in Mali and Senegal. So, they’re not sending military people there to treat these people. No, I’m sorry.* [1]
now that fukusf get their goons embedded in west africa, the cdc and the who are no longer trumpeting on the ebola *global threat* , just like that ,the ebola *threat* just dissapear into thin air, i guess its mission accomplished eh ?
its all about the isis *global threat* now babe !
i bet the 101 airborne and their brits, french fellow thugs have been busy shooting at the ebola virus laying the ground work for the coming fireworks in africa, hehehehe [2]
[1]
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article40012.htm
[2]
http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2015/01/30/west-africa-approbation-new-world-order.html
Posted by: denk | Feb 6 2015 5:20 utc | 86
Even grislier evidence that the Ukrainian Nazis seemed to be cut from such depraved stuff that even their German overlords turned away in horror: The March of Heroes.
Today's generation of Banderovtsi is proud to follow in the SS-Galizien and SS-Nachtigall footsteps.
Posted by: Vintage Red | Feb 6 2015 6:00 utc | 87
@Vintage Red #82, 86:
Thank you for those links. The first one contains this link:
Ukraine: The Rise of Yatsenyuk
Yatsenyuk has two major issues that will come to a head before the elections. Firstly he is Jewish, which according to political analyst Taras Kuzio, could pose a major problem. …People have wondered how Jews can support the Kiev junta, given that it is racist fascist. Well, that quote shows that Jews being involved in Ukrainian nationalism is nothing new, and has been going on for several generations.Yatsenyuk’s Judaism is not his only identity related political problem. Members of his family were prominent in the Ukrainian nationalist movement, which will doubtless cost him votes in the country’s Russian-speaking east.
Looks like US and Europeans try to play good guy/bad guy.
RT link. Russia obviously likes the game.
The journalist elaborates that the two leaders went to Kiev straight after Kerry as they “distrust the American administration” and want to “present their diplomatic solutions just before US Vice President Joe Biden” presents the US plan of sending lethal weapons to Kiev at the Munich security conference on Saturday.
Problem is they have to get this diplomatic solution now.
Posted by: somebody | Feb 6 2015 7:46 utc | 89
Well, Europe is split.
This here is a BBC report demanding weapons for Ukraine.
Posted by: somebody | Feb 6 2015 8:00 utc | 90
Many young ethnic Ukrainians are fleeing conscription. To where are they fleeing? Russia. Yats and the gang are going to have trouble in western Ukraine if they don't come to their senses... if they have any senses independent of the US imperium...
Posted by: Charles Van Wey | Feb 6 2015 8:04 utc | 91
Reading translations from Russian that I have seen in Cassad, Fortruss and RI there is a translation that I haven't figured out. It is the use of "under" as in As it is already quite clear from diplomatic maneuvers, the operational pocket under Debalcevo attained a political dimension.
I once took courses in Russian in college but never really could read the language. Why do the translators keep on using "under" as opposed as "of" or "in" or "within" or "containing"? Just wondering.
Posted by: ToivoS | Feb 6 2015 8:41 utc | 92
@59 Regardin Yarosh and the grenade story, what about typing "Yarosh grenade" in Google? This is the first thing to come up.
Posted by: Ulster | Feb 6 2015 8:52 utc | 93
#90 It makes perfect sense that Yats and gang want these people flee to Russia according to their calculations. They have openly stated that they want to purge the Russians from Ukraine. It is lot easier to let them flee rather than having to kill them all. I think they have already announced they want eastern Ukraine for its resources but without its people. They do not consider themselves as Slavs, and much like their predecessors the German Aryans, want nation rid of Slavs. That is the essence of Ukrainian nationalism. I don't think they have any other plans beyond that.
This might be hard for anyone in the US to understand but we should remember that Kiev and other cities along the Dniepr River were originally founded by the Swedes. To this day one can see traces of their Nordic ancestry. Certainly one can see their desire to look Swedish at least in those adds for Ukrainian wives with all of that peroxide hair.
Posted by: ToivoS | Feb 6 2015 8:56 utc | 95
Posted by: ToivoS | Feb 6, 2015 3:56:25 AM | 94
You are missing the point. Ukrainian men are travelling to work from all over Ukraine to support their families - even if they are not fleeing conscription. From West, Central Ukraine, Dniepropetrovsk everywhere. With the currency in free fall wages that could never compete are just not enough.
Posted by: somebody | Feb 6 2015 9:40 utc | 96
@91 In Russian you'd normally say "бои под Дебалцеве" for "fight near Debalceve". The word "под" literal meaning is "under" so if it's translated by someone with English as second language they might be tempted to use the literal translation because it doesn't sound unusual to them.
Posted by: Ulster | Feb 6 2015 10:21 utc | 97
somebody #95 I am not missing any point. It is well known that many millions of Ukrainians have been working in Russia for the reasons you mention. I saw an article that mentioned that at the time of the Maidan coup there were already 4.5 million Ukrainians living in Russia. Also it is well known that many Russians have blood relatives living in Ukraine or have ancestors that came from there. This simply reflects the historic fact that the people of Ukraine and Russia are a single people (perhaps exc0luding the Galicians and the many Slovaks, Poles, Hungarians and Rumanians that live along the southern border).
What has happened in the last year is somewhat different. By last August 700,000 people from the Donbas left for Russia to escape the war. There is also one million draft age men who have left to evade the draft. My point is the current Maidan regime desires that migration because they do not want any citizen who identifies with their Russian heritage to remain. It is the resources they want, not the people who live there. As we have seen the current leaders have become very wealthy selling those resources to foreign investors. Hopefully the people of Ukraine (those that remain) will start to understand that Ukrainian "nationalism" is just so much smoke being used by their leaders to loot the nation, much as those leaders have been doing since 1992.
Posted by: ToivoS | Feb 6 2015 10:22 utc | 98
Toivos at 78. There is little doubt that the neoNazi thugs running amok in Ukraine are barely distinguishable from the real thing in Germany 90- to 70 years ago. What does distinguish them is that the German Nazis had total control over the levers of state after 1938; their descendants in Ukraine have not yet achieved total control.
Absolutely. Huge powerful country, huge State machine, and, I wanted to add, the support of the population (with exceptions too small to matter.) Ukraine’s neo-Nazis are a loose network of interconnected people and organisations, some of them quite informal, with some of course sitting in the Gvmt. And the population is not pro (for the largest part.) They subsist and are effective precisely because of this structure, also because the landscape around them is so confused and volatile, violence on a personal or quasi-personal level has a high premium. Which also has the effect of making them appear more depraved.
I seriously doubt that Poroshenko shares the Nazi dream of purging 'slavs' from Ukraine.
I agree (although my post could be read as implying the opposite.) But Yats does adhere. Hah as I now see you said above at 94.
Posted by: Noirette | Feb 6 2015 10:33 utc | 99
The comments to this entry are closed.
the only country involved in a war in a Europe is Russia. It's supplying arms, men, logistics. It lies about it, because it can. It's not a democracy, it never was and it never will be. It can do what it likes, it controls the media, the industry (as crappy as it is). It silences any opposition, either through outright murder, by imprisonment or by whatever means necessary.
Posted by: anotherjeff | Feb 5 2015 13:24 utc | 1