Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 13, 2015

Ukraine Ongoing Thread

Please use this thread for collecting and discussing news and opinions about the current events in Ukraine.

Posted by b on February 13, 2015 at 18:15 UTC | Permalink

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TE@99

I agree that the Poles had delusions of grandeur and provided the trigger to Germany but the gun was already loaded and cocked just waiting for an excuse to explode.

Posted by: Wayoutwest | Feb 15 2015 2:06 utc | 101

@102 Superb.

Posted by: dh | Feb 15 2015 2:08 utc | 102

Haha, I guess I've effectively been a troll in this thread. But I have no regrets,

Posted by: Demian | Feb 13, 2015 10:44:37 PM | 44

Yep.

Posted by: okie farmer | Feb 15 2015 2:32 utc | 103

@44 You will get your reward in heaven Demian.

Posted by: dh | Feb 15 2015 2:35 utc | 104

#94,#99 and #104 following the subthread started by Demian.

The Poles did not start WWII. That is nuts. What laid the seeds for that war was the treaty of Versailles that refused to recognize the numerous German communities scattered on its borders. Giving Sudentenland to a completely artificial nation -- Czechoslovakia -- was asking for trouble. Splitting Danzig from the Prussian homeland was equally ill advised. The people who lived in that region of Europe at the time of Frederic the Great spoke Old Prussian (a language closely related to Lativian) but by the mid 19th century was almost entirely a German speaking people. A few Polish peasants still lived there but otherwise this was a German speaking region.

The point is that US, France and Britain imposed on the defeated German empire the treaty of Versailles that the German people were not willing to accept. Hitler and his crew, masters of propaganda, were able to stir that resentment to make more war. That war eventually resulted in the total elimination of not just Prussia, Silesia and Pomerania, but also of eastern European Jewry. The next iteration, should it happen, could be even worse.

The "German issue" is all ancient history at this point. Unfortunately, as we see in Ukraine, new unresolved borders can lead to another major war. The US is happy to provoke these conflicts for the simple reason the US emerged from WWI and WWII more powerful and influential each time. The neocons that are pushing this conflict must see even more opportunities to enhance American power and prestige if they can start even another war.

That, dear folks, is my take on the current crisis in Ukraine.

Posted by: ToivoS | Feb 15 2015 2:48 utc | 105

Posted by: Demian | Feb 14, 2015 8:22:13 PM | 100

No. Uni- or multipolar nothing got to do with it.

Wikipedia actually has a pretty good definition - and it is multipolar ...

Globalization (or globalisation) is the process of international integration arising from the interchange of world views, products, ideas and other aspects of culture.[1][2] Advances in transportation and telecommunications infrastructure, including the rise of the telegraph and its posterity the Internet, are major factors in globalization, generating further interdependence of economic and cultural activities.[3]

Posted by: somebody | Feb 15 2015 3:00 utc | 106

Posted by: ToivoS | Feb 14, 2015 9:48:18 PM | 108

The "German issue" dates back to 1848 when Germans could not decide on the rationale for the unification of their mini-states ...
Czechs had a German language problem deep into Prague.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 15 2015 3:04 utc | 107

@ToivoS #108:

Thanks for the nice history lesson. I didn't know that Old Prussian was related to Latvian. My father's mother was Latvian. People in the Baltic stopping to speak Old Prussian and speaking German instead was a very positive development.

Unfortunately, as we see in Ukraine, new unresolved borders can lead to another major war. The US is happy to provoke these conflicts for the simple reason the US emerged from WWI and WWII more powerful and influential each time.

Indeed. But the neocons seem oblivious to the fact that one nuclear superpower should not get into a war with another nuclear superpower.

I am inclined to accept Robert Parry's initial take on this: the coup was launched by neocons infesting the State Department, without the White House subjecting the neocons to adult supervision. I cannot detect any strategy in what the US is doing in Ukraine. As people like John Mearsheimer point out, the US can't win this, because the Ukraine problem is of vital interest to Russia, but not to the US.

At least as important as when the Nazis will lose control of the former Ukraine is when European elites will come to realize that Europe's future does not lie in Atlanticism. All the talk of Putin "selling out" Novorossiya comes down to not understanding that Moscow is at least as interested in prying Europe from the Empire as it is in eliminating the Nazis from Kiev.

Posted by: Demian | Feb 15 2015 3:40 utc | 108

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/14/ukraine-ceasefire-doubt-clashes-rebels-russia-rockets-shelling

In a live midnight broadcast, the Ukrainian president, Petro Poroshenko, issued the order for the country’s armed forces to hold their fire.

In a statement before issuing that order, Poroshenko expressed concern over risks to the ceasefire posed by the unrest that raged on Saturday around the strategic government-held railway hub of Debaltseve, which has been besieged by separatist forces.

In an inauspicious omen for the prospects of any cessation of hostilities, rebels have said they will not consider any battles for the town to be a violation of the ceasefire.

Posted by: okie farmer | Feb 15 2015 4:01 utc | 109

@111 Besides Obama's pettiness and the derangement of DC in general, I think this is about the Asian pivot and New Silk Road. I believe the original goal was to embarrass the Chinese into casting out the Russians and Putin as if the Chinese would fall for the trap, but until Dec. 7, 1941, the Japanese were to Americans gold fish farmers. While Russia is aligned with China, India and any country can feel there is a counter balance to China and can be partners as opposed to vassals. Russia's connections to Europe and the Middle East give China instant access without having to bully or overcome cultural barriers.

Why Ukraine as opposed to a different country? Willing local partners. Libya was done because an affluent group under the Gaddafi regime promised they would take the reins, and in Syria, Sunni army officers defected expecting to win quickly and turn the country over to the West.

In all of this world mess, Obama is doing everything he can to continue the occupation of Afghanistan. Russian, Chinese, Indian, Iranian, or even Pakistani development of smaller regions of Afghanistan would undercut the idea of the U.S. as indispensable.

Posted by: NotTimothyGeithner | Feb 15 2015 4:13 utc | 110

Russian Spring

02/15/2015-02:14

The fire is not being heart in Debal`tsevo nor in Donetsk.

On 1:54, military journalist Aleksandr Kots informed that it is silence near Debal`tsevo.

“45 minutes past ceasefire deadline, 5 km outside Debal`tsevo, it is total silence. A shootout ignited at the site of Logvinivo, but not for long.”

Social network users of a number of Donbass cities speak mostly of cessation of the artillery fire.

In Donetsk, the sounds of explosions stopped about 00:05 (1:05 Moscow time).

Reported by the Center of operative communications, by 1:08, in settlement Mar`inka a hardware of the Ukrainian invaders was sill burning down having incidentally exploded an hour before.


Russian Spring

02/15/2015-02:46

On 22:50, the situation remained tense.

“During time left until the ceasefire, the Ukrainian forces apply maximum efforts to unblock their units besieged in Debal`tsevo, Ol`khovatka and Bulavinskoye”, informed Eduard Basurin, a deputy of Commander in Chief of the corps of Donetsk Republic Ministry of Defense. “Units of the Donetsk Republic army retain city Uglegorsk, settlements Kalinovka, Redkodub, Logvinivo and Lozovoye as well as all dominating heights around Debal`tsevo.”

“Vanguard detachments of combatant forces expelled the opponent from the industrial zone of Debal`tsevo and the Debal`tsevo rail junction. Our units entirely control district “8 of March” in the north part of the city”, highlighted the representative of Donetsk Ministry of Defense.

Today, intensity of shelling of residential districts of Donetsk and its suburbs by artillery and rocket salvo systems had sharply increased. During the day, in the Donetsk Republic capital, 3 civilians were killed 12 – wounded. Four were wounded in Gorlovka. Dokuchayevsk is being shelled as of now (22:00).

For the full day, the casualties of Donetsk Republic forces amounted to 3 tanks, 2 APCs, 3 autos; 12 people were killed, 40 – wounded.

For the same time, the casualties of Ukrainian forces totaled 6 tanks, 3 APCs, 22 artillery systems, personnel killed – 113.

Posted by: Fete | Feb 15 2015 4:44 utc | 111

@ToivoS #108

My point wasn't that Poland started WWII, it was that Poland's intransigent stance towards Weimar Germany in the mid to late 1920s was one of the factors watering the seeds of war that were planted by Britain and France at Versailles.

The actual outbreak of the war was due to miscalculations more than by design. Germany's rearmament program was predicated on a war against France in 1940, not against Poland in 1939. With France defeated, Poland could easily have become another Romania or Hungary, co-opted in Germany's campaign against the bogey in the east.

Posted by: Thirdeye | Feb 15 2015 4:44 utc | 112

111/113

It was clearly stated US policy - in 2012 by Hillary Clinton to slow down or prevent the Eurasian Union. The fight for Ukraine has been going on since the "Orange revolution" in 2004.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 15 2015 5:58 utc | 113

@somebody #116:

Right, thank you for the explanation and link. I don't really pay attention to what Hillary says, but I am aware of Zbig's plans for Russia.

But I guess that the point I was trying to make when I said that I don't see a US strategy concerning Ukraine wasn't that the US didn't have a fundamental strategy concerning Russia, but that USG's Ukraine gambit has failed, both because Crimea was reunited with Russia (meaning NATO did not get Sevastopol) and that Russia avoided getting into the trap of carrying on an open war with the imaginary state known as the Ukraine. So the US is doing little more than pissing and shitting in Russia's backyard, without really advancing its interests, as far as I can tell. Looking at this from a strict point of view of US interests, I really don't see how the US is doing itself any good by continuing the Ukraine fiasco. It is acting like a dog that has bit someone's leg, and stubbornly refuses to let go.

Speaking of dogs: Does your dog bite? That is the perfect joke. Even that first line is a joke in itself, since it is incredibly rude and clueless to ask someone if their dog bites. (And I am a cat person.)

Posted by: Demian | Feb 15 2015 6:42 utc | 114

Note that the 2012 statement of US policy took place a month after Clinton had announced her resignation. Have been wondering about the timing of that.

Posted by: rjj | Feb 15 2015 8:00 utc | 115

Posted by: rjj | Feb 15, 2015 3:00:00 AM | 118

yep. Victoria Nuland was her spokesperson then. Should ensure continuity don't you think?

let's face it, Obama did not change Neocon policies one bit. He just repackaged them.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 15 2015 8:40 utc | 116

@somebody #119:

Regarding the photo of Hillary at your link: has there ever been, in modern (i.e., past WW II) history, a woman more resembling a witch than Hillary Clinton? I don't think so. She is unelectable. Obama was the first "black president", but the Dem party is not going to be able to pull that trick a second time with the variation "first woman president". I don't know what the Dem establishment is smoking when it thinks that Hillary has a rat's chance in hell.

I have never voted Republican in a presidential election. But I would consider it if Hillary were the Dem nominee. Using myself as a weathervane, I would say that one can conclude that the Dem establishment should jettison H. Clinton ASAP.

Posted by: Demian | Feb 15 2015 9:01 utc | 117

Ok so say it's a given that the US version of reality is a distortion, and ithat the truth is a kind of inversion, and that there's been much invested to bring Ukraine into Nato and so forth, as well as western business interests imposing their will on the matter through the IMF etc., and free market economy ready to impose its austerity reforms and rentier culture, and investors ready to plunder and loot, but what is the desperation and urgency all about? Right at this moment? Such that there's a threat of military conflict between nuclear armed states. Why do the PTB in the west, and their partners in Ukraine, believe that this particular conflict is of such critically vital importance. Why now? I mean, what's the rush? Does the failure of this particualr endeavor really present an existential threat to western elites that it's a neccesity to lie and irrationalize to the rest of us ad nauseaum creating massive confusion, as being solely the fault of Russian aggression? What do they really stand to lose that they herd us into an hysteria to the edge of waging war alongside our new brethren neo nazis and such their enemies in times of yore? And that they practically stumble over themselves to reveal their disdain for human beings world wide, prooved by MH17 and the deafening silence and on and on false flag after false flag, of any nationality. This year? Are they guided by horrible prophecies of disasters and plagues the rest of us aren't privy to? Is it for our own good and we should be greatful?

Posted by: geoff29 | Feb 15 2015 13:21 utc | 118

somebody @119 "Obama did not change Neocon policies one bit. He just repackaged them."

No surprise.

Posted by: rjj | Feb 15 2015 13:43 utc | 119

Dem @ 121

I'm ready to work for Lindsey Graham. Am impressed by the near absence of negative press. It suggests he is politically reliable.

Posted by: rjj | Feb 15 2015 13:47 utc | 120

Apparently there will be new rules of conduct for Verkhovnaya Rada. I guess, medical personnel will be present at all times, and fistfights interrupted at 3 minute intervals, and trained medic will be assessing if the participants can continue. Also, bleeding participants will be promptly removed, even if the health is not seriously threatened. I guess there will more rules, like challengers giving time to the challenged deputy to remove his jacket.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 15 2015 14:31 utc | 121

(And I am a cat person.)

Strictly speaking, that should read I am a cat's person.
Dogs have masters, cats have staff.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 15 2015 14:49 utc | 122

@120@ Demian
You have never voted Republican? But may consider it? I agree with your view of Clinton. But I don't share your faith in the two party system. When both horses in the race have the same owner...does the owner care who you bet on? he/they win regardless. And in the age of electronic voting, which has been shown to be easily hackable, I fear it's all a moot point. And hey, sorry about razzing you over the "God willing" thing. I learned a lesson...never post after the fourth Guinness.

Posted by: Scott | Feb 15 2015 16:09 utc | 123

Undeniable proofs of the russian invasion! #RussiainvadedUkraine Via @GeoffPyatt
https://twitter.com/VonHenrick1/status/566513856273334273

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 15 2015 16:45 utc | 124

@128@ Anon
Movie...Miracle on 34th St...undeniable proof Santa Claus exists. Hopefully you're kidding. On a more important topic...anyone else see Monsantos 17bil. land grab, or should I say potential land grab in the Ukraine?

Posted by: Scott | Feb 15 2015 16:50 utc | 125

Scott

You should click the link and see the irony of my post..

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 15 2015 17:11 utc | 126

@130@ Anon
I am aware of who the guy is. Personally I hope he's spayed. The next generation doesn't need his special kind of stupid. So...you're saying Santa doesn't exist either?

Posted by: Scott | Feb 15 2015 17:22 utc | 127

Scott

The link is Ironic, do you get it? They laugh about the alleged "russian invasion" claims, dont you get the joke? If not I cant help you anymore.

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 15 2015 17:25 utc | 128

@132@ Anon
Yes Anon...I get it. And whether I need help or not...I think that question has been answered. LoL. I fear I AM as dumb as my kids tell people.

Posted by: Scott | Feb 15 2015 17:31 utc | 129

@Toivo #108
It is simplistic to assign WWII German behavior to Versailles - because the punitive damages imposed in Versailles were both a function of US refusal to honor to traditional cancellation of allies' war debts owed post World War I plus revenge for the defeat of French military in the Franco Prussian war of 1870 - which is how Kaiser Germany was formed. The annexation of Alsace Lorraine was absolutely one of the proximate reasons for France's participation in World War I.
@Demian #120
Hilary isn't going to win unless the Republicans field an amazingly bad candidate - one worse than Romney or McCain. It isn't because she's a woman - it is because she is so fundamentally unlikable. Normally a female candidate has a strong cross-party support from the female voter base and muddles through the other portion, but Hilary is so nasty that the female vote will be weaker than normal and furthermore offset by a corresponding violent reaction from the male base. Gnaw off the arm to get out of bed kind of reaction.

Posted by: ǝn⇂ɔ | Feb 15 2015 17:58 utc | 130

All the high politics is well and good. What's happening on the ground? The situation does not bode well, IMHO.

I overlooked Col. Cassad's commentary from Friday on Yarosh and War. He argues that Washington opposed "even a short break and an exchange of prisoners" and will let it's Pravsek cyborgs violate the ceasefire. Yarosh has already said he will not comply. Cassad describes the situation thusly:

If the Americans really wanted peace, then they would long since have gotten rid of Yarosh, Kolomoisky, and other characters that lead to the escalation of the hybrid war in Ukraine. But, as we can see, all of these people are still in action. And while this supervision is preserved, other junta bosses like Poroshenko and Yatsenyuk are afraid to touch them because there's no clearance from Washington for getting rid of these people. This is one of the backup plans, if Poroshenko or Yatsenyuk are to fall out of the deck of the American interests and so absolutely wacko characters will be required in the junta leadership, which will follow the course of war to the last Ukrainian to its logical conclusion.

Russia Insider also has the good Colonel's more detailed analysis of the Debaltsevo pocket, Unresolved Debaltsevo Situation Threatens Ukraine Ceasefire.

This is going to be a real problem. I had my reg. Sat. NYT hardcopy, their map shows a salient with Debaltsevo in the Banderaite zone of control. Cassad's map and the statements from the NAF command make clear -- it's a pocket behind NAF lines. As folks have noted, NAF views this as an "internal matter," I doubt if Wash. shares that opinion.

We may get a chance to find out directly, as Fort Russ reports that Zakharchenko calls an emergency meeting regarding Kiev's violation of ceasefire.

Posted by: rufus magister | Feb 15 2015 18:10 utc | 131

ǝn⇂ɔ, what was your reaction to Obama's election in 2008?

Posted by: rjj | Feb 15 2015 18:10 utc | 132

@Hoarsewhisperer #126:

that should read I am a cat's person.

That is so true. I have five cats. Or maybe I should say that a number of cats have me.

To digress, my impression is that most "cat owners" have a limited understanding of cats, because they only have one. I have read that apes groom each other, but I have never run across the observation that cats groom each other. But they do. Cats are highly social animals. Yet the stereotype is that cats are loners.

As for dogs, I would say that cats and dogs are about at the same level when it comes to being able to relate to human beings.

@Scott #127:

I don't share your faith in the two party system.

I have no faith in the two party system. I voted for Obama in the first election, but then when he went ahead with corporate as opposed to single payer health care (bringing serfdom to America, quite an accomplishment), I switched my registration from Dem to Green. And I voted for the Green candidate, a woman, the second time around.

I said that I would consider voting for H. Clinton's Republican opponent because that is how much I hate her. To repeat: Hillary proves that witches are real, and not just something postulated by folklore.

For purposes of general education, here is a video of one of Hillary Clinton's predecessors:

Suspiria - Helena Markos

Posted by: Demian | Feb 15 2015 20:14 utc | 133

Fort Russ this afternoon has the latest on the ceasefire. Yurasumy sums up The First Day of the Ceasefire.

The ceasefire exists on paper, though few people on the ground seem to be paying attention to it. It is not being observed where tactical necessity demands it. But the shelling of cities has stopped. Which is good.

Unresolved matters: Debaltsevo, Mariupol, and Bakhmutka are the sore spots which are liable to blow up this peace as soon as there is a pretext and a tactical need to do so.

Translator J. Hawk thinks money will win out.

There is no question that, given half a chance, the Ukrainian government will attempt to reconstitute its military power so as to start another war on the Donbass. Question is, will it be allowed to do so by the West? Probably not.... [The] IMF owns Ukraine. It owns it lock, stock, and (still smoking) barrel. It is the only thing that stands between it and a default.... [The West] knows perfectly well that after another round of fighting there might be no Ukraine to pay back the billions of dollars it owes its Western creditors.

Pressure on Mariupol might prove fruitful. The Azov Battalion said its offensive sputtered due to a lack of fuel. Don't I recall earlier fascists having this problem? In any case, could be suggestive of supply difficulties and shortages.

Posted by: rufus magister | Feb 15 2015 20:25 utc | 134

@137@ Demian
I've read before that Clinton is a witch. In the literal sense. But am reluctant to accept it. However, one is judged by ones deeds. And her deeds indicate...well, they indicate I may be wrong in my reluctance. I have voted Libertarian for many years. I have a dream that one day NOONE votes for either of the two heads. However, I fear the rigging of electronic voting machines would make whatever we do irrelevant. I see the next "election" to be a joke on us. Clinton vs. Bush. The fix can't get much more obvious, but how many will see through the veil? Anyone else seen Monsantos land grab in the Ukraine? Or Motorolas claims of numerous NATO spec-ops and mercs in Debaltsevo? Both appear to trace back to one source each. Any corroboration?

Posted by: Scott | Feb 15 2015 20:28 utc | 135

@94 It is quite typical for far-right white-Russian nationalists such as Demian to blame Poland for literally all evil in the world, including perphaps Russian-Japanese and Sino-Soviet wars. But it's kind of fair because Poles seem to blame everything on Russia either :)

Posted by: Ulster | Feb 15 2015 21:49 utc | 136

@140@ Ulster
I cannot believe YOU...Mr. "All evil resides in Russia" are accusing someone ELSE of being unfair and one-sided. Do you even reread the piffle you type? Do you not see the obvious contradiction and hilarity in it? My gosh man...as I've said before...you're either paid to be an idiot, or you do it free of charge. Which is it?

Posted by: Scott | Feb 15 2015 22:20 utc | 137

@Scott #139:

I have voted Libertarian for many years. … I fear the rigging of electronic voting machines would make whatever we do irrelevant. I see the next "election" to be a joke on us. Clinton vs. Bush. The fix can't get much more obvious

I don't mind your voting libertarian, even though I think libertarians' hatred of the welfare state is crazy. The only hope I see for the American people is the collapse of our society and starting from scratch, same as happened in Russia. But Russia had an authentic culture to return to, whereas the US is just based on a false ideology. So what can the US return to when it is rebooted? As far as I can tell, America is doomed.

I don't care, because I don't have any children.

Posted by: Demian | Feb 15 2015 22:28 utc | 138

@142@ Demian
I don't hate the welfare system. I try very hard not to hate anything. I think it could be overhauled. I doubt anyone follows a party's platform 100%. And yes, starting from scratch is a good thing. How to do it peaceably is the question. Our culture? we had one many years ago. It was called self-reliance, individualism, community spirit and hard work. And what to return to? How about the thing we have strayed away from. The Constitution. Yes, I know...pipe dream. Was it Franklin who said people don't get the government they want...they get the one they deserve. Looking at America, I see the wisdom in those words.

Posted by: Scott | Feb 15 2015 22:50 utc | 139

I think that it is unjustified to say that "Poles blame Russians for everything". It is a reasonable guess that this is only about 30%, by the percentage of the vote you get when you promote that view. The current popular sentiments seems to be "mixed feelings". Since Ukrainians are right there across the border and there are many historical ties, they are not some uniform exotic mass, so if the question is "do you like Ukrainians" the answer would be "which Ukrainians? The fascists (actual expression is banderowcy, Poles do blame banderowcy for a thing or two)? The kleptocrats? The seasonal workers, maids etc.? Is Polish borsch better than Ukrainian borsch? (Ukrainian one is actually more popular, and Ukrainian pierogi are also very popular.) That said, the perception that Ukraine is not ruled by common folks trying to get by but by a coalition of kleptocrats and fascists makes it hard to offer heartfelt support, even if the other side is "Ruska swolocz".

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 16 2015 0:33 utc | 140

@Scott #143:

Off the top of my head, I see two futures for America. One is to break up into about five smaller states, as George Kennan has suggested. Interestingly, US policy makers fantasize about the breakup of Russia. That strikes me as projection.

The other possibility is that the US becomes a fully fledged fascist police state. Obviously, policy makers are preparing for that, with universal NSA surveillance and the creation of the Department of Homeland Security, which has an unapologetic Nazi ring to it. If the US took this route, I think that most major powers would treat it as a pariah state (although that's not a certainty, given that no major powers denounced the stolen 2000 election), so I don't see this scenario as likely. But clearly, the system is so broken that a full breakdown needs to occur before the society can start reparing itself.

Posted by: Demian | Feb 16 2015 0:42 utc | 141

@Demian #145

I fear number two is more likely. In fact I think we are well down that road. "Homeland anything" Is Nazi and it is unapologetic and blatant for those who can see. I feel America is already being treated as a pariah. A feared pariah. Like a heavily armed lunatic. Everyone knows he must be dealt with, but no one knows quite how...and they all want someone else to do it. I have children and grandchildren. I don't envy their future. Had I known then what I know now I'd have been celibate. OK...maybe not celibate...but far more cautious. Americans are waking up, but I don't think quickly enough. And I can see the fanatics in control of the Fourth Reich burning the country down before they admit defeat. Perhaps then we can rebuild? Yep...I'm just full of hope and cheer. As an aside, have you read or reread 1984 lately? I hadn't reread in in twenty-fives years until a few months ago. It was a shock.

Posted by: Scott | Feb 16 2015 1:22 utc | 142

@Piotr Berman # 144:

I think your remarks are correct. I have been to Poland a number of times and have known a few Poles. As opposed to the Polish people in general, the current Polish government is clearly Russophobic (it trained the Right Sector shock troops, after all), but as far as I can tell, that is the the result of Polish nationalism which Polish elites use to legitimize themselves.

Obviously, Poland and the fledgeling state known as the Ukraine share many characteristics. (I did not know that there is such a thing as Polish borsch. But one of the nicest meals I have ever had was duck at a restaurant in Warsaw.) But I think that to the degree that Polish Russophobia exists, Polish and Ukrainian Russophobia are qualitatively different. The basic reason for that is that Poland has a real history, whereas Ukraine has nothing but an entirely fabricated history. Poland has its own culture and language, whereas Ukrainian culture is just a kind of hick and fascist Russian culture.

Since I have expressed these views, I might as well cite these quotations:

Когда украинец умнеет, он становится русским.
When a Ukrainian smartens, he becomes a Russian.

Русский либерализм кончается там, где начинается украинский вопрос.
Russian liberalism ends there, where the Ukrainian question begins.

(I'm pretty sure that I ran across the second quote at Lurkmore, which I linked to. I guess someone deleted it. But that statement appears here.)

Posted by: Demian | Feb 16 2015 1:30 utc | 143

Thirty four civilians killed in just one village of Khryashevatoye in two weeks


It's like, for example, they killed 66 thousand people in Kiev in two weeks for nothing. Or 193 thousand in New York.

Kristina Rus:

On the list you can see 4, 3, 2 people with the same last name, from the same family. This is just one village. And how many villages, towns and cities were in the line of fire over the last 10 months?

Frontline Update from deputy corps commander of Ministry of Defense of DPR, Eduard Basurin


Last night and today, for the first time in a long time, the situation in Donetsk Republic remained relatively calm.

Units of DPR, in accordance with the Minsk agreements, completely halted military operations along the entire contact line at 00:00 o'clock Kiev time.

At the same time during the night and in the morning mortar and gun fire by separate groups of Ukrainian security forces was observed.

In some cases our soldiers had to return targeted fire to stop these provocations.

In accordance with the order of head of DPR, all DPR units are holding fire and not responding to small provocations of Ukrainian troops.


Every unbombarded hour is a blessing. Elsewhere there are reports of de-mining operations in Donetsk. Hope dies last.

Posted by: jfl | Feb 16 2015 1:40 utc | 144

@Scott #146:

I'm sorry that you are so pessimistic. One reason I was never interested in having children was that although I had no program to emigrate from the US, I could not see myself raising a child in the US.

There is no need for me to reread 1984. All I noeed to do is watch Obama, Kerry, or H. Clinton. But since you mention 1984, I'd like to recommend another dystopian novel (not nearly as well known in the West as Brave New World): We.

You can download it from here.

Posted by: Demian | Feb 16 2015 2:03 utc | 145

Demien, do we have proof that the Polish govt trained PravSek?

Posted by: Cu Chulainn | Feb 16 2015 2:09 utc | 146

@Demian #149

I've read Brave New World several times. Huxley was warning us just as Orwell did before him. What you call pessimism I call realism. (grin) Semantics? I'm not sure. I'm an avid reader. Always have been. I don't own a tv. I find it a waste of time that's primarily soft porn and propaganda. They don't call it programming for nothing no? I will admit over the last thirty years I have seen a vast awakening in my country. But I think it may be too little too late. I've thought of emigrating...but I was born here. I'd miss it. And dammit...I'm too stubborn to run. They can kill me but I will not submit quietly. But I think we have drifted off the thread...I don't want rufus scolding me. LoL.

Posted by: Scott | Feb 16 2015 2:16 utc | 147

Demian @145

Interestingly, US policy makers fantasize about the breakup of Russia. That strikes me as projection.

The Soviets are already broken up, dear Sam, now it's your turn. As in:

The Disintegration of the United States and the Fourth Political Theory: A Brief Overview

... (from one of FortRuss editors) not so brief, but with nice graphics showing the division lines between black (south east), latino (south west), natives (splattered around) and everyone else.

Posted by: citizen x | Feb 16 2015 2:19 utc | 148

@rufus (135)

Very interesting article. It certainly fits the analysis that the US real allies in the country are the Nazi groups, who they've been supporting and working with since the end of the Second World War. I always thought is spoke volumes that that (now dead, thank god) criminal Muzychko was filmed again and again wearing a Oakland Raider's cap and other trappings of American pop culture while going around beating up the opposition. The US likely has more control over these Nazis than anyone so it makes sense they'd be using them as leverage over more mainstream Ukrainian public figures who can still win elections - folks like Poroshenko.

Its important to take stock of where the US has failed and what is holding it back: The US has failed to crack open Ukraine to its business interests *completely* so far - the average Ukrainian politician isn't yet ready to totally sell out their country. Also, hard to know what the polls say now, but certainly the percentage of Ukrainians who thought joining NATO was a good idea was very low. Probably this has not changed. The Nazis score VERY low in the polls even still showing the distinct limits of political popularity of the far-right. Though the US is clearly set up the Maidan and got all of its people into power (while the EU's man, Klitschko, was relegated to mayor) they still have to do a lot of pushing and prodding and hand-holding it seems.

There are probably more games going on in the country than going on outside of it (including the war in the East). Inside Ukraine is where, I think, the majority of this will play out. Just look at what happened in Georgia - relations are still strained but with the American puppet gone, talks between the Russia and Georgia are again being considered. It has taken years, but Georgia has shown that it is possible for these countries to have their independence without being ruled by US-sponsored politicians. The same will, eventually, have to go for the Ukraine. But like all countries that allow their governments to be forcibly changed by the USA, the lesson will have to be learnt the hard way.

Posted by: guest77 | Feb 16 2015 2:24 utc | 149

@Cu Chulainn #150:

No, we don't have proof but we have it on good authority Meyssan bases his post on an article in a Polish satirical magazine, but just because the magazine is satirical doesn't mean the story is not legitimate. It is not possible for the mainstream Polish press to publish such a story.

The Right Sector troops who stormed government buildings, perpetrating the coup, had to be trained somewhere. Poland was as likely a place as any. Lithuania has also been reported to have trained the thugs. Not surprising: the region of western Ukraine (the word "Ukraine" derives from Polish, not Russian) used to be in the Polish/Lithuanian sphere of influence. (But ThirdEye is much better at history than I am, so I will say no more.)

Posted by: Demian | Feb 16 2015 2:28 utc | 150

@153 guest 77.. which article in rufus @135 post do you refer to? i don't have time to read them all! thanks.

Posted by: james | Feb 16 2015 2:29 utc | 151

Nikolay Starikov: How the US influenced Minsk talks

transcript here.

Posted by: james | Feb 16 2015 2:40 utc | 152

@Demian 147

Ukraine of course has history, it is just that most of it is quite unhappy. As nobility opted to assimilate with the ruling states, the language was preserved mostly by peasants, and given that bulk of educated people were either nobles/gentry or people who aspired to join them, the literary tradition is sparser than in Russia and Poland. "Ukrainian question" sounds like a copy of the "Irish question", with obvious differences, like British having such profound contempt of the Irish that there was no contradiction between liberalism and the desire to keep the Irish in check. I read that young Darwin, as a member of a geographic expedition, noted that the natives of Terra del Fuego "are perhaps least evolved humans on Earth", but he considered making an exception for the Irish.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Feb 16 2015 2:43 utc | 153

Just my opinion and I don't claim to have studied it deeply, but my impression about the quality of the geopolitical analysis on that Syncretic site is not very good. These geography-based nationalisms seem entirely meaningless in an era where the world has become quite small (and I don't mean "the internet age" - I'm talking about precisely about what the events of the Cold War showed us).

Russia is at the center of the BRICS alliance because of the goodwill it built up around the globe during the Cold War. Likely the collapse of the Soviet Union played some role as well in making it less of a threat to countries like China (as well as more threatened by the US) has helped it, but the alliance is largely the same one created in three important phases: the USSR's long-standing alliance with India since the 1950s, its support for the Liberal parties that have eventually become dominant in Central and South America, and finally Soviet support for South Africa's battle against Apartheid (and for African independence in general). And these alliances and their importance to Russia completely blow apart the (what seem to me to be) extremely out-of-date theories Dugin seems to rely on for his analysis. In fact, if Russia WERE to make Dugin's geopolitics the center of its policies, it would be much the worse off I think.

The folks like Dugin - who I've heard throw out the same "China may want to take over Siberia" nonsense you hear in US presstitutes eager to try and make the BRICS alliance seem hollow - frankly, I just don't get them. They seem more useful for asking advice on how to win at a game of RISK than for advice on how a modern country should forge alliances in the face of a powerful global hegemon.

As for wether the US will collapse - I don't see this as very likely though certainly it will lose its preeminent spot in the world power structure. The fact is that the US is still too dominated by a single power center, with a very tight-knit elite which rules the country quite strictly (ever more strictly, the passage of these new NDAA and exposure of the NSA domestic spying shows). One could argue that it has to some degree already become two societies: the big cities and their wealth are a separate world from the formerly industrialized hinterlands, the effects of which are dramatic (Ferguson, Missouri and Detroit Michigan, for example).

Posted by: guest77 | Feb 16 2015 2:56 utc | 154

@james: this one: http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/117396.html

Posted by: guest77 | Feb 16 2015 2:58 utc | 155

@guest77.. thanks!

Posted by: james | Feb 16 2015 3:44 utc | 156

@guest77 #158:

Thank you for that very perceptive analysis.

Just my opinion and I don't claim to have studied it deeply, but my impression about the quality of the geopolitical analysis on that Syncretic site is not very good. …

The folks like Dugin - who I've heard throw out the same "China may want to take over Siberia" nonsense you hear in US presstitutes eager to try and make the BRICS alliance seem hollow - frankly, I just don't get them.

Ah, so when Flores talks about the "fourth political theory", he means Dugin. I was wondering about that. Russophobes get an orgasm by calling Dugin a fascist, but I think he is just a crank. He doesn't really say anything that Edmund Burke didn't say, as far as I can tell, aside from throwing in a lot of Russian Orthodox mystification. And Dugin's ignoring Hegel, when Hegel's political theory is considered to be the main alternative to liberalism, is a further sign that Dugin is not serious.

As for whether the US will collapse - I don't see this as very likely

How can the US find its way again without collapsing first? It is turning into a society that is at the same time postmodern and feudal. How can the US solve its huge domestic problems by the usual means of its so-called liberal democracy? I still think that the two scenarios I mentioned are the relevant ones. If the US does not break up into regions, it will become a fascist police state. And fascist states always collapse eventually. Where you see "dominat[ion] by a single power center", I see a Mad Max world emerging.

Posted by: Demian | Feb 16 2015 3:45 utc | 157

@Demian #154

Don't worry about me, I'm reading and learning.

Posted by: Thirdeye | Feb 16 2015 4:49 utc | 158

Russian Spring

02/15/2015-21:35

Aleksandr Zakharchenko, the head of Donetsk Republic, demanded orderly leaving “Debal`tsevo caldron” from the Ukrainian troops.

“The fire cessation regimen covers Debal`tsevo region as well, where the multi-thousand group of the Ukrainian forces remains blocked. All Ukrainian troops dislocated in Debal`tsevo and adjacent settlements must leave the city orderly without weapons and equipment”, is said in the official announcement of Zakharchenko.

The announcement highlights that all attempts either to fight through to the territory of Ukraine or to storm positions of Donetsk Republic will be stemmed.

“We urge Kiev to strictly follow all points of the Minsk agreement of February 12, 2015”, summarized Zhkharchenko.


02/15/2015-22:13

Combatant “Schastliviy” (“Merry”) informed: “There was no command to tolerate provocations in Debal`tsevo area. This arrangement does not apply to the caldron”


02/15/2015-22:29

Attempts to fight way out Debal`tsevo caldron by the Ukrainian troops continue. As previously warned, the combatants suppress these attempts.

“It is absolute terror in Logvinovo. Burned equipment is everywhere and corpses on every step. The road is piled up by tanks and “Urals” (lorry trucks). The artillery strikes savagely”, commented military journalist Maksim Avdeev.

Minitary journalist of kp.ru Dmitriy Steshin confirmed the attempts of tear out in Logvinovo having recorded a video of the Ukrainian losses : “Were in Logvinovo. Nothing was suggesting a peace. Lashing “Grads” out of the caldron for all it is worth. Whole route strewn by corpses of Ukrainian soldiers and burned junta’s hardware”

Posted by: Fete | Feb 16 2015 4:55 utc | 159

UAF is moving heavy artillery to Artemivsk and points south. That pretty much puts the kibosh on the Minsk agreement.

Posted by: Thirdeye | Feb 16 2015 8:25 utc | 160

I can't see how in any society the president of a country can survive something like this - except an absolute banana republic, so maybe Poroshenko has got a chance.

Debaltseve is the main reason why fighting has continued in eastern Ukraine despite the ceasefire, which took effect one minute after midnight on Sunday. In a television address announcing the truce, President Petro Poroshenko said the road to Debaltseve remained open and that the troops there had been resupplied with ammunition. But the story of the convoy's escape on Sunday shows that both those claims are essentially false. The rebels "had lots of equipment," Jackson said. "We stayed to the very end, but it wasn't viable to stay without weapons."

...

Kiev was likely banking on the ceasefire to provide a respite from shelling that could be used to evacuate or reinforce the troops in Debaltseve. But Alexander Zakharchenko, head of the breakaway Donetsk People's Republic, said his forces would observe the ceasefire everywhere but near Debaltseve and would "stop any attempt to break out of the encirclement."

"There wasn't a word about Debaltseve in the [Minsk] agreement," Zakharchenko argued. "This means that Ukraine has simply betrayed the 5,000 people in this encirclement."

The sad part is he may be right. Poroshenko reportedly refused to negotiate with Russian President Vladimir Putin for a "green corridor" to allow the Ukrainians to leave the city. Of the 16 hours the leaders of France, Germany, Ukraine, and Russia negotiated in Minsk, eight were spent arguing over whether Debaltseve was actually caught in a "kettle," the Russian term for a military encirclement, according to Andrei Kolesnikov, a Kremlin pool journalist who has been allowed extensive access to Putin in the past.

...

"Vladimir Putin insisted that it was, and that if a ceasefire was agreed, it would be strange if it wouldn't be violated: Those in the kettle will surely try to break out of it, and those who are boiling the kettle will try to gather the steam," Kolesnikov wrote in the newspaper Kommersant.

Despite posturing from many on the Ukrainian side that they won't give up Debaltseve, Jackson said many troops there want out. "We're all trying to leave," he said. "The only other option is death."

But Kiev has no way to rescue the thousands of troops hunkered down in trenches and dugouts around the city, not to mention up to 1,000 civilians who reportedly remain there.

Not to mention Merkel and Hollande who should have leaned on Poroshenko.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 16 2015 8:51 utc | 161

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3jxzhWwF1k

i have watched this video interview a few times and i feel that there is something important being said by the second guy .the one with the striped blue and white t shirt,but because i have no idea of the situation or history in ukraine i feel i am missing something.

anyone posting here care to explain to me what is really being said..somehow this youtube interview is important to the future of the ukraine and europe as well...just a feeling i get

Posted by: mcohen | Feb 16 2015 11:53 utc | 162

g77 at 153 --

Glad you had the time to read it. More evidence of ongoing neo-con voluntarism, of the sort that brought us Iraq, Syria, and Libya. I don't know how direct, effective, or reliable our hold on the local muscle is. Not very, I suspect.

Morning MSM hardcopy reports ongoing fighting in Debaltsevo.

Posted by: rufus magister | Feb 16 2015 12:50 utc | 163

Posted by: mcohen | Feb 16, 2015 6:53:23 AM | 165

Donetsk/Stalino in World War II

The Nazi troops invaded Stalino in October 1941. Because of its importance and rich resources, the city was controlled directly by the German army and not by local administration as in other places. Many plants and factories were moved far away from the front line. Many former workers joined clandestine groups to fight Nazis. Donetsk area included a Jewish ghetto and a concentration camp, in which more than 90,000 people were killed over less than two years.

The city was almost completely destroyed during the occupation. In the beginning of World War II, the population of Stalino totalled 507,000; after the war – only 175,000. Stalino was freed on 8 September 1943 celebrated today as the Day of Donbass Liberation.

Galician waffen SS

The German Governor of Galicia Dr. Otto von Waechter agreed to create a Galician Waffen SS division designed for regular combat on the Eastern Front, and its formation was announced on 28 April 1943. The Division was organised by a local Ukrainian Central Committee, headed by Volodymyr Kubiyovych with the active involvement of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church. Many nationalists opposed the idea of the division, in part because it was an organisation outside of its control, and claimed that the division would be used by the Germans as ‘cannon fodder’, but nevertheless there was no shortage of volunteers, with something in the region of eighty thousand offering to serve. The creation of foreign SS units had already been carried out elsewhere in occupied Europe, with recruiters championing such divisions as crusaders fighting to hold the Bolshevik hordes back in the East. French, Dutch, Scandinavian, Latvian, Estonian, Croatian, and Walloon units were formed, with many of these international brigades fighting to the bitter end amid the ruins of Berlin. The division was sent to the front in the beginning of 1944. Although it lacked combat experience it was well-equipped and most of its members had undergone more rigorous training than the average German drafted into the Wehrmacht in 1943 or 1944. The Division was sent to the area of Brody, where heavy combat was underway, and was attached to the 13th German Army Corps. Together with six under strength German infantry divisions, the Galician Division was responsible for holding a second front of approximately 80 kilometres. On 13 July Soviet forces under the command of Marshal Konev launched a massive attack. The Galician Division bore the brunt of an unusually fierce assault and by July 19 the Ukrainian SS troops were surrounded and defeated by the Soviet Army. Many members were able to break out of the encirclement or survive by using local knowledge, often resurfacing after having hidden in the forests or in local villages. The Ukrainian division saw further combat in 1944 and was used in Yugoslavia against Tito’s communists before being employed to help put down an uprising in Slovakia. The division eventually surrendered to the Western allies and after spending time in internment camps in Italy in 1947 veterans were allowed to emigrate to Canada and the UK. Members of the Galician division were individually screened for security purposes before admission to Canada and the UK, but in recent years there has been some public disquiet over the presence of former Nazi SS troops in both countries. According to the British Home Office a total of 1,450 veterans of the SS Galicia division were registered as resident in the UK in 2003. Most see themselves as fighters for an independent Ukraine. Ukraine’s SS division was formed at a time when West Ukrainian nationalist guerrillas were fighting a brutal three-way partisan campaign against Polish irregulars, Red Army troops and the German army, and the moral issues facing young patriots during the period were necessarily complex and difficult to penetrate even given the benefit of historical hindsight. In Soviet times members of SS Galicia were demonised as collaborators and fascists, but since independence there has been a shift towards a less condemnatory approach to this most difficult of national issues, although discussion on the subject of WWII collaboration and the role of Ukrainian nationalist forces remains hindered by the polarising effect of the subject. Attempts by President Yushchenko to have Ukrainian nationalist partisans recognised as veterans of equal status alongside Red Army veterans has provoked a storm of protest and led to accusations of disrespect to the Soviet war dead.

Grandchildren.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 16 2015 13:05 utc | 164

@rjj #136
Obama supposedly beat Hilary in 2008 for the Democratic nomination because he was a black man; that may be true, but I believe a significant part of that was the aforementioned dislike for Hilary even among the Democratic vote base.
As for Obama himself - he is known primarily for being the black face which was used to gentrify previously black low income housing projects which are now sitting on very expensive land. Or in other words, anyone who thought Obama was actually about Hope and Change is an idiot. I'm not the only one who thought this - here is a speech given by Robert Fitch in Harlem in November 2008:
http://revcom.us/a/150online/fitch_speech-en.html
The last paragraph:
"What we see is that the Chicago core of the Obama coalition is made up of blacks who’ve moved up by moving poor blacks out of the community. And very wealthy whites who’ve advanced their community development agenda by hiring blacks. Will this be the pattern for the future in an Obama administration? I can’t read the envelope. But I do believe that if we want to disrupt the pattern of the past we have to make some distinctions: between the change they believe in and the change we believe in; between our interests and theirs; between a notion of community that scapegoats the poor and one that respects their human rights—one of which is not to be the object of ethnic cleaning. Between Hope VI and genuine human hope."
One other note: Penny Pritzker is now Secretary of Commerce under Obama - Fitch speaks at length about the Pritzker family's interaction with Obama.

Posted by: ǝn⇂ɔ | Feb 16 2015 15:49 utc | 165

#168 somebody..... much appreciated

so there is already a division that can be exploited...one thing though when you look at the ukraine from google earth there is a lot of farm land,food production must be high

i read it is one of the world leaders in grain production behind the usa......so thats the prize.

the days of raiding your neighbours fields are over...only peaceful negioations will work.

stalemate

3rd week in february

Posted by: mcohen | Feb 16 2015 20:43 utc | 166

"The Ambitions Driving the Ukraine Consensus" (In Washington DC)

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-ambitions-driving-the-ukraine-consensus/

Posted by: Willy2 | Feb 17 2015 7:41 utc | 167

Poroshenko's days as ukrainian prime minister are numbered ??????

Quote:

"Arseniy Yatsenyuk already gave orders to conduct an information campaign against the Ukrainian president. Arsen Avakov is collecting compromising information on Poroshenko. (......) Chairman of Novorossia Parliament Oleg Tsarev gave an exclusive interview to Ridus. He said why the Kiev US embassy puppetmasters, together with Turchinov, Yatsenyuk, and the odious oligarch Kolomoysky who is always chasing dollars, want to see Poroshenko overthrown with every fiber of their beings."


http://fortruss.blogspot.com/2015/01/tsarev-poroshenko-will-be-overthrown-in.html

Posted by: Willy2 | Feb 20 2015 17:03 utc | 168

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