Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
January 02, 2015

Ukraine: "From the spirits that I called ..." - Part II

Published here on February 22 2014: Ukraine: "From the spirits that I called - Sir, deliver me!"

The opposition in the Ukraine and its paymasters in the U.S. and EU called up the spirits of the right, the fascist, to wage a coup against the elected president and to push their selfish objectives onto the Ukrainian public.

Now those spirits won't go away ...

Parts of the Ukraine will soon show signs of anarchy with those that protested and rioted without having any real aim moving towards criminal activities. The opposition, which is now empowered and will have to deliver results, will soon squabble and will again fall apart. The fascist forces, euphemistically called "nationalists" in "western" media, will win more power.

Those predictions have turned into reality and even those who arranged the coup against the legal government of Ukraine can no longer deny the dangers.

On Tuesday a member of the imperialists Atlantic Council wrote in the Washington Post about a "new threat" to Ukraine which is not Russia but are "independently operating warlords and armed groups"

[N]ow several of these units, especially those linked to oligarchs or the far right, are revealing a dark side. In recent months, they have threatened and kidnapped government officials, boasted that they will take power if Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko fails to defeat Russia, and they served as armed muscle in illegal attempts to take over businesses or seize local governments.

Yesterday thousand of fascists marched with torches (vid) in Kiev and other Ukrainian cities to remember the birth of the fascist mass murderer of Poles and Jews and Nazi collaborator Stephan Bandera. Those forces will not go away and they will drag Ukraine further to the right and further apart.

Goethe's sorcerer's apprentice marshaled the spirits to help clean the house. But he could not control them:

O, you ugly child of Hades!
The entire house will drown!
Everywhere I look, I see
water, water, running down.
Be you damned, old broom,
why won't you obey?
Be a stick once more,
please, I beg you, stay!

This spring and summer the fighting in east Ukraine will again flare up in earnest. The coup government in Kiev will likely falter and Ukrainian state will be declared bankrupt.

The Washington Post OpEd is the first glimpse of realization of these dangers. More will follow. It will be a rude awakening and after much gnashing of teeth the apprentices will call for help:

What a deluge! What a flood!
Lord and master, hear my call!
Ah, here comes the master!
I have need of Thee!
from the spirits that I called
Sir, deliver me!

As I wrote in the February piece:

The sorcerer's apprentices in Washington and Brussels will come to understand that they can not control the spirits they called upon. They will need to call the master to put the spirits they awoke back into their holes. The international number they will need to call starts with 007 495.

Anyone with a bit of knowledge about the social history of Ukraine could have predicted this. The Kremlin knew that this would happen and it warned of the dangers again and again.

It will be waiting for the call.

Posted by b on January 2, 2015 at 8:49 UTC | Permalink

next page »

Whereas the Russian nationalist separatist groups are just ordinary citizens expressing their righteous rage with the help of some imported firearms...

Posted by: ralphieboy | Jan 2 2015 10:58 utc | 1

Just look at what's left of Libya for the next Ukraine phase.

Well done DC, you've really brought the plague to Europe. It'll fester on Russia's western borderlands but the disease will seep deep into the European heartlands where 40% plus youth unemployment (and loss of Russian consumer market) will see the emergence of a violent fascist agenda.

Meanwhile, oil economies will recalibrate to c. $50 p.b. and China+Russia will take the next step towards SCO expansion and BRICS economic development. The usd$ sticking out like dog's nuts will have to do something other than print, print, print, ... The question is what and when is going to undermine the public confidence. Major war is unlikely but opportunities to shift war warehouse inventory stocks (the main economic driver) to borderland hostilities will be exploited.

Posted by: x | Jan 2 2015 11:34 utc | 2

Excellent b, and I'm noticing how Kiev Nazi-style New Year's march is being mostly ignored by the Western imperial media.

Posted this in the previous thread, but much better here. What a great comment by 'Jack', below the AFP 'news' report sympathetic to the marching Bandera lovers:

This US imperialist propaganda piece must be written by one of the staff comedians! Bandera is Che Guevara! Chocolate king Poroshenko fought on the barricades!

Notice the backhanded support to these n@zis? Our propaganda machine wants you to think that only "Moscow" says Bandera fought on the side of Hitler and the N@zis. Notice how the article tries to justify Bandera's fighting with the n@zis by blaming the 1930s famine -- but not mentioning the famine affected the whole USSR and was made worse by US economic embargo (just like today!)

These are the n@zis on whom our US government of hypocrites spent 5 billion of our tax dollars to bring to power and overthrow an elected government. These n@zis have attacked all media and parties in Ukraine that oppose the US puppet junta.

The people of the east are overwhelmingly Russian speaking working class people, miners and factory workers, who refused their appointed oligarch governors and declared their independence of the junta.

Our US government wants to turn Ukraine into a low wage colony and establish first-strike nuclear missile bases in Ukraine directed against Russia. The restoration of capitalism in Ukraine has brought disaster.

No surprise that some US politicians mingle with N@zis in Louisiana!

Posted by: fairleft | Jan 2 2015 12:10 utc | 3

' This spring and summer the fighting in east Ukraine will again flare up in earnest. '

What's going on in Novorossya now is not in earnest? See Fete's latest on the open thread. I guess it's not in earnest, if you're holding a toasty toddy in Germany?

Posted by: jfl | Jan 2 2015 12:13 utc | 4

As always, your analysis misses the mark. You get some things correct, but your reasoning and conclusions are misdirecting. Whether this is consciously purposeful on your part is a matter of debate. I, on the other hand, have had Ukraine pegged properly from the get go as was witnessed by my slew of posts related to the topic starting in March of 2014. Here's one that laid it all out dated March 23, 2014.

And The Loser Is……?

Your blog is a symposium of disinformation and the majority of your commentators are obvious intelligence assholes seeking to manipulate public opinion and engage in containment. Your tacit approval of their group mentality manipulation leads me to believe you are consciously seeking to misdirect rather than honestly and objectively analyzing and informing.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Jan 2 2015 13:49 utc | 5

This come directly from US post-war policy of working with some of the worst Nazi war criminals who fought against the Allies, like the torture master Reinhard Gehlen.

It is obscene. I think events Ukraine sting particularly bad to many in the US because it is the fruition of that policy of embracing the Nazis - a complete betrayal of everything the American people believed in and fought for during the war, the "Greatest Generation". As obscene as seeing the right-wing Israelis support the new Ukrainian government: the Israel who once chased down their Nazi enemies to the ends of the earth, now choosing to hold hands with them to appease the USA and fulfill their Jabotinsky-ite (thanks bevin) dreams of Greater Israel.

US support for the Ukrainian coup government represents a total betrayal of the World War Two generation. Those who worked and fought and died on all fronts.

Posted by: guest77 | Jan 2 2015 13:51 utc | 6

There is an episode of Alternative Views TV has an interview with Phil Agee where he gives and overview of US post-war policy - including a bit on the US support for the far-right in Ukraine.

I haven't read it, but I believe some more on this topic might appear in the book he wrote with Louis Wolf in the 1980s called "Dirty Work: The CIA in Western Europe". This can be downloaded here:

Posted by: guest77 | Jan 2 2015 13:56 utc | 7


Thanks for the links

Posted by: jo6pac | Jan 2 2015 15:05 utc | 8

Latest from the Saker

Posted by: ben | Jan 2 2015 15:09 utc | 9

I'll try again:

Posted by: ben | Jan 2 2015 15:14 utc | 10

Could anyone check Wikipedia and tell the author of this article what Bandera was exactly doing during the 1942 massacres in western Ukraine and save everyone with a basic knowledge of history a perpetual facepalm. As for the rest of the article - the poetic part - I won't comment as it's apparently a direct result of too much bhang smoking on New Year's eve.

Posted by: UIster | Jan 2 2015 16:14 utc | 11

Ulster @ 11

no thanks, but i gotta tell you (and you can check with Wikipedia) that bhang is not smoked, but ingested as a heavy drink or chewy little balls.

Posted by: john | Jan 2 2015 17:07 utc | 12

NYT is doubling down of late on demonizing Putin. It has started this series called "Putin's Way" which is designed to tar Russia as a kleptocracy like the United States. So far there have been four installments: 1) on Rossiya Bank, 2) the shakeout in schoolbook publishers, 3) the government's seizure of oligarch Yevtushenkov Bashneft shares, and 4) the collapse of South Stream.

U.S. liberals have to be hoodwinked into becoming Russophobes. None of the stories so far come close to the kind of corruption on display in Washington D.C. For instance, the recent Citigroup-dictated gutting of Dodd-Frank.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Jan 2 2015 17:26 utc | 13

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Jan 2, 2015 8:49:17 AM | 5

I visited your 'blog' Cold.

I can't begin to tell you how surprised I wasn't to read the following in the pathetic excuse for 'analysis' therein...

"No, Russia never loses in b’s fantasy land of anti-Semitic commentators. St. Putin and Blessed Mother Russia are the harbingers of freedom and liberty and will deliver the world from the millenia-old wrath of the evil Jews. That sounds crazy, doesn’t it?"

Nor was I surprised that the author lives in FLA and calls people who speak up for Palestinians, in places like MoA, anti-semites.

Cold, there is only one type of anti-Semitism on this earth. It's what members of the creepy "pro-Israel" crowd (i.e. your good self) are doing to Palestinians.
Analyse that.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jan 2 2015 17:56 utc | 14

aside from the typical propaganda talking points in the wapo opinion piece i note the following.. not sure how the local fascists want to interpret this as it comes directly from the pages of the WAPO, lol.

"Most alarming, however, is the role of Ukraine’s interior minister, Arsen Avakov. Instead of reining in these fighters, conducting background checks on their records and reassigning those who pass muster, he instead has offered them new heavy weapons, including tanks and armored personnel carriers, and given them enhanced brigade status. Amazingly, in September he even named a leader of the neo-Nazi Azov brigade to head the police in the Kiev region."

i guess arsen avakov is taking orders from brennan, or some wise person inside the cia..

Posted by: james | Jan 2 2015 17:57 utc | 15

To MM @13 - but the hoodwinking of USA "liberals" is pretty complete at this point. I'm at the point of mostly not contributing to "political" discussions at parties (can do so sometimes in one on one conversations) bc the sheer utter lack of real knowledge & true understanding of what's actually happening anymore is beyond pathetic, disgusting & gob-smacking. I'm just used to USians parroting out the latest nonsensical propaganda clap-trap, no matter which "nooz" network they favor. Might as well all watch Fox, as far as I'm concerned, bc everything on M$M is a bald-faced lie. People think listening to and/or watching BBC (whether the one in the UK or the "America" version) is somehow "more insightful" or some nonsense.

At a party yesterday where everyone was all in for dissing Putin and cheering on the downfall of Russia who "deserved it." I asked why? And got the usual blather about how Putin had "attacked" Ukraine/Crimea; Putin started it; Putin's this terrible dictator; blah de blah...

I have to give up and throw in the towel. To attempt to educate people who are this thoroughly brainwashed is a daunting task and nigh onto impossible. Don't let's get started about the NYPD and DiBlasio is treating them so appallingly or something.

I give up. Uncle!

Posted by: RUKidding | Jan 2 2015 18:00 utc | 16

Based on my info, nothing has changed in the Ukraine. Because 80 to 90% of the oligarchs just switched sides. From supporting Janukovitsj to supporting Porochenko. The same corrupt oligarchs that robbed the ukrainian people blind.

I am waiting to see the Ukraine to go bankrupt within the next say 12 months. And I don't think the EU or the US is willing to bail out Ukraine. and that begs the question: Who has bought those ukrainian bonds/debt ?

People also should watch Turkey to get into financial trouble (AGAIN). Like it did in early 2014. Turkey getting into financial trouble is (IMO) the most disrupting event in 2014.

Posted by: Willy2 | Jan 2 2015 18:11 utc | 17

- I also think the current events won't go down too well in Poland when the facists are threatning the (remaining) polish speaking minority in the Ukraine.

- The US & european countries throwing countries into chaos is not confined to the Ukraine. Think also about Syria, Libya, Sudan, Somalia, Iraq in the past say 14 years.

Posted by: Willy2 | Jan 2 2015 18:19 utc | 18

It was reasonably clear within weeks of Poroshenko's assumption of the presidency last spring he did not have control over the the Right Sector militias and that if he tried to curb their power too quickly they could come back and bite him. So he tried to use them by letting them go into the national guard and fight the Donbas people. They then got their asses kicked. They have been licking their wounds for the last couple of months and now seem to be reinvigorated. It looks like they are demanding revenge and if Poroshenko will not set them lose against the Donbas, they seem to be ready to take their war against him.

I missed this reference to the sorcerer's apprentice before. What a great fable and a perfect metaphor for Poro's dilemma! If Poro renews the offensive against eastern Ukraine this spring maybe he will hope for a repeat of the Battle of Brody in 1944 when the fascist Galizien division of 12,000 Nazi collaborators lost 8,000 killed and captured at the hands of the red army.

Posted by: ToivoS | Jan 2 2015 18:21 utc | 19

RUKidding @ 16. Though it is unsavory, engaging with liberals is necessary. Because they believe themselves thoughtful and committed to fact-based analysis, they are quite vulnerable.

A favorite liberal theme is Obama is blameless; it's all the GOP's fault. To which I ask, "What about the New Cold War?" The liberal responds: "Evil Putin; aggression against Crimea." I ask, "What about the coup in Kiev? How can the U.S. call Kiev a democratic uprising but dismiss Crimea, where over 90% voted to secede from Ukraine, Russian aggression?"

Liberals tend to forget about the Right Sector looting of the armory in Lviv -- that was a critical turning point in the coup against Yanukovych -- but they need to be reminded.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Jan 2 2015 18:33 utc | 20

The language of the Post opinion piece is very reminiscent of similar works appearing in the 1980s supporting the leadership of the so-called fledgling democracies in Central America. The key is the careful separation of the regime from the repressive security apparatus. In the 80s, there was a deliberate effort to maintain a mask of uncertainty over the identity and support for the death squads - which were portrayed as mysterious entities whose sponsorship could not be known. Here, while acknowledging the fascist militias as allies to the Kiev regime, the talking point is carefully developed that the nazis are independent and politically negligible. The author counts on a reader who processes the talking point while missing the detail - i.e. the obvious and odious presence of Avakov and his acknowledged association with Yatsenyuk.

Posted by: jayc | Jan 2 2015 18:42 utc | 21

@16 same here. Funny how the "educated elites" exhibit ignorance. Endless quotes from the NYT, from Charlie Rose, Forbes, Bloomberg, etc...Not one ounce of original logical thought. I dread the future of our country (USA). Where have all the "facts gone" ???.....

Posted by: georgeg | Jan 2 2015 18:59 utc | 22

@17 Turkey's primary allegiance to either Eurasia or the West will determine the global future, I believe. If Gezi Park protests were a US attempt at regime change (as I believe it was), the failed coup and Turkey's replacement of the South Stream project indicates the US has already lost. Should there be economic strife in Turkey in 2015, we can be sure that the US is trying to create maximum chaos as it withdraws in defeat.

Posted by: yellowsnapdragon | Jan 2 2015 19:03 utc | 23

Hmm, looks like US efforts to surround Russia with our military bases and drive a wedge between Russia and China through central Asia has hit a major bump in the road. azerbaijan

Azeri authorities just raided the offices of Radio Free Europe in Baku. It seems just a couple of years ago that neocons were talking about the growth of a strong alliance between the US and Azerbaijan. Even the Israelis were thinking of using Azeri air bases to support an air war against Iran. I noticed in recent years that talk about such collaboration had died down considerably but had not seen any evidence that the relationship with the US was souring. This has to be very good news for those interested in stopping the expansion of the US empire.

I would be interested in knowing the back story here. Did the Azeris finally notice the geographical reality of being stuck between Russia, Armenia and Iran? Time to mend fences with their neighbors? Perhaps they gained a lesson from Ukrainian events -- i.e. maybe it is not a good idea to be a pawn in the great chess game when the US is so willing to play pawn's gambits? It was heartening to see Kyrgyzstan asking the US to leave so I guess Uzbekistan should be next.

Posted by: ToivoS | Jan 2 2015 19:07 utc | 24

Posted by: guest77 | Jan 2, 2015 8:51:53 AM | @6

As obscene as seeing the right-wing Israelis support the new Ukrainian government: the Israel who once chased down their Nazi enemies to the ends of the earth, now choosing to hold hands with them to appease the USA and fulfill their Jabotinsky-ite (thanks bevin) dreams of Greater Israel.

This is about money. The fighting started as soon as the elected Prez refused to make efforts to join the EU.

Joining the EU means that the Ukraine gives up its currency for the Euro. The instant that happens, the bond vigilantes--no doubt friends of Nuland's and her husband Kagan--will advance them money with the valuable eastern Ukrainian resources as collateral. Since we all know they can't pay, the bond vigilantes will own the resources. In 1989, they had the Economic Hitmen technique. As soon as the Euro came into existence, bond vigilantes used that.

You will note that even though Japan has a credit rating below Botswana, and its debt-to-GDP is over the moon, it is a monetarily sovereign nation. It can pay all debt in its own currency, it doesn't need to borrow from bond vigilantes. Greece, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Iceland, etc, cannot. They're screwed.

Posted by: MRW | Jan 2 2015 20:18 utc | 25

LOL Too much Russian beauty for Germany's MSV Duisburg in Antalya.

Posted by: Oui | Jan 2 2015 20:42 utc | 26

To MM@20 - it's really hard to talk to anyone about what's really going on due to the intensity of the bald-faced lies and propaganda. At yesterday's party, one of the big themes was, yes, you guessed: Nothing is Obama's fault bc he "can't do anything bc the GOP won't let him."

To ggg @22 - indeed, people think that if they watch "intellectual" Charlie Rose that they're getting "fair & balanced" information - ditto for "extremely lefwing" NPR (if only).

I DO try to talk to any citizen - I don't care what alleged political persuasion - about what's going on, but most citizens are so deeply bought into their Team Sports Political parties - and so deeply authoritarian and so deeply into Us v Them - that it's a real Sysiphean task to get them to really HEAR what you're saying.

Any shades of nuance are a lost cause, or at least that's my experience. USians, esp, are very bought into the myth of the Evil Empire USSR, which has been transformed into the Evil Empire Russia. Whether they loved or hated Sarah Palin, most citizens pretty much agree with her viewpoint of Russia & Putin as these evil evil nasty villains who are out to "get" us. Based on nothing factual, of course, but Sarah Palin might as well have won the election bc her viewpoints are all pervasive even amongst the intelligentsia who, in theory, should know better.

Don't get me started about friends who praise Susan Rice and Samantha Powers as these great leaders. Talk about puke-making.

I do try, but I am finding it ever more difficult to get through, and frankly, I don't see so-called "liberals" as any more open-minded or aware or whatever than the putative "average conservative." The only differences between the two allegedly "different" viewpoints these days are marginal shades of grey.

Frankly I think most white Americans (I am one of those) are still extremely racist, no matter that they like to think they're not, and many, including women, are quite sexist, no matter how they vote (that's my opinion & observation). IMO, we've really gone many many steps backwards from the '70s and early '80s. What a mess.

Posted by: RUKidding | Jan 2 2015 20:48 utc | 27

@b: How much longer is it acceptable to have CNH [see post #5] call out commentators @MoA as anti-semites through his linked right-wing Neocon actors?

Accuracy In Media Honors Inaccuracy In Media
AIM's chairman Don Irvine

Thanks Hoarsewhisperer | Jan 2, 2015 12:56:48 PM | 14

Posted by: Oui | Jan 2 2015 21:09 utc | 28


Some months ago I linked to a pro-nazism site, I cant remember the name right now.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jan 2 2015 21:32 utc | 30

edit ^ should be "HE linked to"

Posted by: Anonymous | Jan 2 2015 22:11 utc | 31

in re 11 -

Why don't you do that and let us know how it works out? Here's a link to nice history of Herr Bandera, if you like.

Posted by: rufus magister | Jan 2 2015 23:11 utc | 32

barflies at 15 through 21, 24 --

I share your worries and concerns about Poroshenko, the whole exchange is most fruitful. He is an increasingly weak figurehead. If I might paraphrase a great pop song covered by the Clash, "Will stay or will he now? If stays there will be trouble, in not maybe double."

Most interesting -- jayc @ 21, parallels to El Salvador back in the 80's. Lyashko as the new "Blowtorch Bob" Daubisson? Or one of the "volunteer battalion" commanders?

RUK at 26 --

I feel your pain, I've been trying to wise up libs. & progs. on the USSR since the 80's. You can tell what luck I've had....

Posted by: rufus magister | Jan 2 2015 23:28 utc | 33

@RUKidding #26:

I am finding it ever more difficult to get through, and frankly, I don't see so-called "liberals" as any more open-minded or aware or whatever than the putative "average conservative." The only differences between the two allegedly "different" viewpoints these days are marginal shades of grey.
Yeah, the liberals have totally lost any connection with civilized values with their fawning allegiance to Obama, who has just intensified the fascist policies that Bush 2 started, the only exception being that Obama makes gay-friendly noises. (Since Obama was willing to compromise with the reactionaries with respect to how health insurance pays for birth control, one cannot even say that Democrats distinguish themselves from Republicans when it comes to women's rights anymore: the only way the Democrats now distinguish themselves from the Republicans is that they are more tolerant of gay people.) I have as much good will towards American Republicans and "conservatives" as I do for Democrats and "liberals" now. One now sees exactly the same kind of demented zombie thinking in liberals as one previously saw in "conservatives".

Posted by: Demian | Jan 2 2015 23:37 utc | 34

I was one of many people who have been surprised that the peace agreement in east Ukraine has been more-or-less holding (I was even surprised that there was an agreement). 'b' was surprised by it too no doubt, because I remember 'b' saying on this board in early September, at the time of the signing of the peace agreement, that it was only going to be a very temporary peace, intended to give each side time to do some re-grouping. 'b' now boldly forecasts, with no supporting facts or reasoning: "This coming spring and summer the fighting in east Ukraine will again flare up in earnest." I feel that's a foolish forecast: No matter whether it turns out to be right or wrong, there isn't a good information basis for making it. As far as I can see, the elected president and parliament in Kiev does not have a definite strategy and definite commitments about what it's going to do in east Ukraine this coming year. Neither do the rebels, beyond holding onto what they've got today. A couple of months ago I came across a truly knowledgeable Russian observer saying he felt he could no longer forecast how events will unfold in Ukraine -- which I took some comfort from hearing, because it implied that my own knowledge was probably not missing some obvious major force a work in the situation. The previous forecasts of many people have been wrong in a way that leaves slim basis for more and better forecasting.

I did mention that the president and parliament were democratically elected. The very right-wing parties got very low share of the votes in those elections, you know. Thus 'b' above is overhyping the right-wing, as he has done before. Unless and until the very right-wing can win more support from the electorate, the very right wing is unimportant and unpowerful. The hyping of it is silly flagwaving and propaganda at odds with the reality. The overall forces of reality in Ukraine are shrouded in obscurity at the moment, to me, as I said. But the status of the very right wing is clear to me in the light of the low share of votes it got in this past year's two elections.

Posted by: Ghubar Shabih | Jan 3 2015 0:25 utc | 35

Mike Maloney @ 20

I agree with your approach, although I haven't found it fruitful wrt the so-called "liberals" I know. Still, the approach has merit.

Liberals and conservatives alike are attached at the hip to their world-views, no matter that they are formed mainly from propaganda.

Only a born skeptic can wade through the bullshit and not drink the Kool-aid, and my own un-scientific assessment leads me to believe not more than one-in-a-thousand are born skeptics.

Hoarsewhisperer @ 5

I am mainly a lurker at this site since I have zero chops in the geopolitics arena, but I tend to view CNH's posts as counter-factuals, just as I do anything the (any) Administration says as well as mainstream media narratives.

I used to say I believe half of what I see and nothing of what I hear, but now I believe nothing at all of either until I have thought about it for a long time, and even then it's subject to review.

Posted by: paulmeli | Jan 3 2015 1:02 utc | 36

Just buy them or blackmail them - it leads to the same effect, offing them has different consequences , their network fights back instead of being undermined by the betrayal. Trust is the most valuable commodity - as any banker will tell you.

Posted by: bridger | Jan 3 2015 1:02 utc | 37

Hope this is not too OT but it is relevant to US imperial interests and efforts to contain Russia.

Looks like US efforts to surround Russia with our military bases and drive a wedge between Russia and China through central Asia has hit a major bump in the road. azerbaijan

Azeri authorities just raided the offices of Radio Free Europe in Baku. It seems just a couple of years ago that neocons were talking about the growth of a strong alliance between the US and Azerbaijan and even Israeli sources were saying that they could use Azeri air bases in order to bomb Iran. There was all of this talk about piping Azeri natural gas through Georgia and Turkey as to by-pass Russia. I noticed that in the last few years stories like this stopped appearing.

This has to be good news to anyone interested limiting US empire expansion. It is looking like Brezinski's grand plan to surround Russia with bases might be coming to an end, at least on Russia's eastern border. Just last year Kyrgyzstan invited the US to leave the Manas air force base. Hopefully, Uzbekistan will be next to sever its ties with the US military.

I would be really interested in knowing the back story to this development. Did the Azeri's finally notice the geographical reality that they are completely surrounded by Russia, Armenia and Iran and maybe they should try to make nice with their neighbors? Or did they notice what was happening in Ukraine -- maybe it is not really in their interests to play the pawn on the empire's side in the great chess game especially when the US prefers pawn's gambit in its offensive strategies?.

Posted by: ToivoS | Jan 3 2015 2:04 utc | 38

To #5: Dear Mr. Salinger. It must be awful to loose your sheep. You know... the ones you've been leading into the abyss for so long. Must be quite a shock they're actually waking up. No worries. You guys can diaspora yourselves back to the land of the Khazars -- where the Bandarista's roam -- and start over with a new flock of lemmings. Enjoy.

Posted by: giddy | Jan 3 2015 2:09 utc | 39

But creating chaos is the plan !!!! Never heard of the words "Divide & Rule" ???

Posted by: Willy2 | Jan 3 2015 2:11 utc | 40

Ghubar Shabih @ 34 --

Too bad you weren't here back in Nov., election results got a thorough going-over. I believe I posted links to various analyses saying that the Poroshenko bloc and the National Front stole the thunder of the unpredictable Pravyi Sektor. Voters wanted a (comparatively) more responsible fascism. I'd call Lyashko's Radicals far-right, myself. And you will note, a number of the more extremist "volunteer battalion commanders" and other rightists were returned on the lists of National Front and other parties, or won in the single-member constituencies as independents.

IMHO, things like raising the military budget and the irredentist views of the Kiev militias are a good info. base for predicting a spring campaign.

Willy2 @ 39 --

Agreed on D&R, but, aren't we getting too much of a good thing with chaos?

Posted by: rufus magister | Jan 3 2015 2:30 utc | 41

'a constant state of destabilized perception' is in effect for the distant future...

We will continue to have the constant vaudeville we’ve always had, namely, rule war by methodical chaos in 2015.

Here's the Sound track

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jan 3 2015 2:36 utc | 42


' Or did they notice what was happening in Ukraine -- '

Yeah. And not only the Azeri's but everyone else on earth - but the Israelis, the abandoned spouse is always the last to know.

The next move is for the 'double-helix' to make replace the aid lost to the Palestinians due to US sanctions for their chutzpah in joining the ICC and dragging Israel before same. There will be a real future for Russia-China in plugging the holes provided them by the self-inflicted gunfire the US is so 'carefully' aiming at its own feet.

Posted by: jfl | Jan 3 2015 2:38 utc | 43

U$ @ 41 --

I dropped in on Moontribe at a few points (IMHO, >2 hrs. is a bit long for a single cut), I was groovin' about 22:00 to 35:00.

One good turn deserves another. In the 70's & 80's I was seriously into early electronica like Tangerine Dream and J-M Jarre. Here's his Oxygene IV, from '76.

Posted by: rufus magister | Jan 3 2015 4:39 utc | 44

Famous German cathedral protests PEGIDA by going dark

All the lights in the Cologne Cathedral, a famous German landmark, will be turned off on Monday evening, said the cathedral's authorities.

The so-called Patriotic Europeans against the Islamization of the Occident (PEGIDA) has been organizing weekly rallies in the eastern city of Dresden.

"By switching off the floodlighting we want to make those on the march stop and think. It is a challenge: consider who you are marching alongside," Reuters quoted Cathedral Dean Norbert Feldhoff as saying.

During her New Year address, German Chancellor Angela Merkel urged Germans to turn away from PEGIDA, calling its members racists full of hatred.
On December 25, German President Joachim Gauck called for sympathy and openness toward the refugees in the country.

German Federation of Industry (BDI) President Ulrich Grillo said on December 22 that the country's interests and values were being undermined by PEGIDA.

It seems as though the spirits called up are more than just the brooms carrying buckets ... seems as though there is a NAZI resurrection not only in Ukraine.

Don't hear too much about this one - either - in our newspapers of record, do we?

Posted by: jfl | Jan 3 2015 5:08 utc | 45

@jfl #44:

I don't know what country you're from, so I don't know if you can read German, but anyway, the author of this blog, who is the editor of the main German journal opposed to the US occupation of Germany, Compact supports PEGIDA

Posted by: Demian | Jan 3 2015 5:17 utc | 46

Oops, I hit a wrong key and my comment got posted prematurely. (That's a change from when the spam filter keeps my comments from being posted at all, even when I am ready to post them.)

Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that yes, there is a Nazi resurrection in Germany, but its leader is Angela Merkel, and PEKIDA has nothing to do with it: in fact, as far as I can tell, PEKIDA is presently one of the main loci of resistance to the Empire.

Posted by: Demian | Jan 3 2015 5:29 utc | 47

There are many possible scenarios. A call to Putin's Kremlin? Doubleplus-UNgood. MUCH more likely that Kremlin Kritics tout opportunities to talk with/bring peace to Ukraine and the West. A-N-D I'd imagine that suffering in Ukraine is good for propaganda points in Russia and W.Europe - especially when placed next to Putin talking about historic ties to Ukraine and Ukrainian 'brothers'.

Even better when hostilities break out despite the peaceful alternative(s) offered by 'reasonable' people. A never-ending 'could/woulda/shoulda' chorus! PEACE was sooooo close.

It's difficult for good, whole people to think like a neocon.

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jan 3 2015 5:34 utc | 48

R U Kidding:

Best to criticize market meddling and media manipulation THEN reprise how crony capitalist politics makes that inevitable a well as leads us into foreign adventures. Where does it all end? (in tears)

Posted by: Jackrabbit | Jan 3 2015 5:41 utc | 49

#26 RUkidding

I suffer the same predicament that you described. I have - what I will refer to as liberal bourgeois intellectuals - as Friends who regard me as from another planet; and not to be seriously regarded. In fact, to them, I am a "conspiracy theorist". Little do they know that most conspiracy theorist (whether or not you agree with what their views) are typically a little bit better informed, than the general lot of citizens who consider themselves well-informed from a steady diet of MSM propaganda. You know, I am actually going to play out this theme whenever the discussion gets into many of the serious matters which this site, and many of its commentators, take very seriously - Coldfield's contribution notwithstanding. From now on, I will state from the get go that I am a conspiracy theorist, or that I am of alien origin; and that my views are understandably out of the "norm". I don't know if that will work any differently than the Sisyphean task of overturning some deeply ingrained opinions (which people of all political stripes deem as their own self-created "original" ideas), and which in reality are the product of being completely immersed in a highly effective propaganda apparatus, I can at least establish a grounding outside of the (status quo) arena where discourse on any matter must adhere to specific rules, norms and so-called "conventional wisdom".

Completely on to another subject, in view of this link:

do any of you know of a search engine that is not "infiltrated" by the corporate elite?

Posted by: bjmaclac | Jan 3 2015 5:44 utc | 50

Dmitri Orlov advances the idea that the AngloZionists quite deliberately plant the seeds of intractable conflicts whenever they are not winning; if they can't run the place, they burn it down so that it will be of no use to anyone else. In the case of the Ukraine, the Nazis turning the place into a failed state was always ready as an acceptable outcome if the main game of drawing Russia into direct hostilities did not happen. When Crimea was gone, the AngloZionists went ballistic, and tried ever harder to provoke an official Russian intervention, or to have the Russians accede to an annexation of the Donbas to accomplish much the same effect. President Putin has not taken the bait, to their dismay.

But there is yet another game going on; herding the EU into the AngloZionists' tender embrace, and reinforcing their submissive role. The US intention to NEVER permit the EU to harbor thoughts of independently crafted policies was made perfectly clear by the Nuland bitch's "fuck the EU" statement in response to the EU's tentatively independent approach to the Ukraine turmoil. If the EU won't fall into line, the US will drop Ukraine like a stone, leaving the EU to deal with the disaster. It serves the purpose of weakening & fragmenting a competitor to the AngloZionist corporofascist paradigm. Kneecap the EU, poison their relations with Russia (and damaging any notion of fruitful collaboration with eurasia), & cause problems for Russia to boot. Sounds like a plan...from the Empire of Chaos' perspective a good plan.

Posted by: JerseyJeffersonian | Jan 3 2015 5:47 utc | 51


Yes, thanks very much for those excellent links. I had found Inside the Company but now I have Dirty Work as well. The videos are very good. Maybe I'll try to make transcripts.


Sorry, I cannot read German well enough to really read the material at those links ... but I cannot subscribe to 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' in the case of NAZIs.

In fact the Phil Agee [1990s] video link above has a few words, ~50:00, on the NAZI collaborators in Germany - "unrepentant old NAZIs, who are the inspiration to the younger people today. These are the people who, in conjunction with the skinheads, are firebombing the homes of Turks, of their cultural clubs, and killing dozens of people " - who were 'saved' by the CIA towards the end of WWII. And they are the likely godfathers of this new NAZI resurgence in Germany now, just as they were/are in Ukraine. The video's all good.

Merkel is certainly a nihilist apparatchik, the soul-sister of Barack Obama, but the "Mutti' of facist mass movement she does not appear to be. A comfortable 'old-shoe', is more like it. The guardian of order. The opiate of the German Middle Class Masses.

These others look much more dangerous, mobilizing the people on the outside of the system who have already lost and are liable to campaigns against 'the other' in order to 'put things back in order'.

Posted by: jfl | Jan 3 2015 6:14 utc | 52

Ghubar Shabih at 34:

I did mention that the president and parliament were democratically elected. The very right-wing parties got very low share of the votes in those elections ...

Yes, the actual election was more or less democratic in the way that US or UK elections are democratic. But the context was post-democratic. The wealthy control the media that creates the setting for the election. The media doesn't allow in pro-peace or pro-compromise sentiments, or anything that contradicts the EU/IMF/US colonial aspirations. Special features in Ukraine are thugs intimidating non-right wing speech, and non-inclusion of Eastern Ukraine. Post-democracy means it doesn't matter what people actually want, what they say in opinion polls on the issues of the day, the usual suspects representing the usual interests get elected 'democratically'. Yeah, they often get elected _saying_ the things that most people want to hear, but they've already made solid promises of obedience to Wall Street or whoever is the PTB. That was Obama in 2008, Clinton in 1992, and so on and I'm sure there are plenty of equivalents elsewhere.

Colin Crouch's Post-Democracy (PDF):

... while elections certainly exist and can change governments, public electoral debate is a tightly controlled spectacle, managed by rival teams of professionals expert in the techniques of persuasion, and considering a small range of issues selected by those teams. The mass of citizens plays a passive, quiescent, even a pathetic part, responding only to the signals given them. Behind this spectacle of the electoral game politics is really shaped in private by interaction between elected governments and elites which overwhelmingly represent business interests.

Posted by: fairleft | Jan 3 2015 7:32 utc | 53

Pegida and the rightward shift in German politics

For some time, Pegida's anti-immigrant positions have been combined with an extreme form of anti-Americanism and the demand for an independent role for Germany in world affairs.

Despite continuing media propaganda, the vast majority of the German population rejects foreign combat missions by the Bundeswehr (Armed Forces).

The Pegida campaign serves to mobilize right-wing, backward layers to intimidate this opposition.

As in the past, the return of German militarism is accompanied by the revival of nationalism and chauvinism.

After having worked in Ukraine with the fascists of Svoboda, the German elite is now looking to the brown mob at home to achieve their goals.

Apparently the NAZIs are attempting to ride in on the coattails of anti-Americanism.

Posted by: jfl | Jan 3 2015 7:55 utc | 54

#26 RUkidding & #49 bjmaclac

Our problem is that our personal friends are members of the university-educated middle class. They are not natural political allies, in spite of how cool many of them acted during college days. Our natural allies are in the working class. Seen in the first days of the Ferguson anger, regularly on the Jerry Springer show (if it's still on), or in one of the now scarce working class union halls.

The most efficient thing to do is to spend your persuasion efforts on the most readily persuadable. Now, for how to get to those people ... hell, I don't know. I hope some of them are here.

Posted by: fairleft | Jan 3 2015 8:06 utc | 55

@ bjmaclac 49

Not sure about levels of infiltration, but you might have a look at the search engines 'Ixquick' and 'Startpage' .


Posted by: Wilzon | Jan 3 2015 8:35 utc | 56

RUKidding, bjmaclac, fairleft

We have all been there with these, frankly, idiots, its very irritating, how do one make an argument to someone about these topics that believe that anything else what they read in the MSM, is "Russian propaganda info"? Some people get offended just when one raise another viewpoint these days, its sad and dangerous.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jan 3 2015 8:49 utc | 57


Anyone who's invested in the status quo, or thinks they are, or hopes to be ... will never embrace radical solutions to the problem ... it's a non-problem as far as they see it. As Upton Sinclair observed,

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"

The times call for a radical solution. So don't look for those invested in the way things are to work for change, or even to perceive its necessity.

Posted by: jfl | Jan 3 2015 9:02 utc | 58

Posted by: jfl | Jan 3, 2015 2:55:14 AM | 53

It is much more complex (or simple). The people who vent their anger are real but the movement is artificial. Think tea party. Pegida is short for "Patriotic Europeans against the Islamization of the Occident". Pro European Islamophobes :-)). They are talked up in the media and by conservative politicians in a way the right wing populist - pro Putin - newcomer AFD never was. Mainly CSU, but CDU, too, are now putting up a show of "understanding Pegida".

By the way, in researching this, I found out why Bismarck is suddenly the Guardian bad guy, AFD asked for a return to Bismarck's "Rückversicherungspolitik" with Russia :-)).

Frankly, the way political discourse is framed by geopolitics is frightening. People are used like sheep. It is cynical all around.

Posted by: somebody | Jan 3 2015 9:17 utc | 59

' The people who vent their anger are real but the movement is artificial. '

That's just what I thought when I read about them. From what I understand, the 'tie' of Pegida to normalization of relations with Russia is purely circumstantial : another group, which proclaims itself not to be anti-Russia, has also embraced Pegida, therefore Pegida is also seen not to be anti-Russia.

Still, the demonization of Islam and the emphasis on Nationalism, Culture, and Militarism are the tells. Pegida seems to have sprung up in the Eastern part of Germany, where times are tougher and the dissatisfaction higher than in the West.

There are people in the US who view the Tea-Party supporters as potential allies as well; after all, they are just people who are (correctly) dissatisfied with the status quo, whose dissatisfaction is being (incorrectly) channeled by the right. They just need to be 'rechanneled' ... that is as cynical as the original manipulation the poor sheep were subjected to.

In my view the only politics possible within the current framework is reactionary ... the only solution is to remake the framework, to make the political actors represent the people and to make the people the ultimate sovereigns via direct recall, referendum, and initiative powers ... sort of 'break glass in emergency, like right now.

It's no use arguing that it will take too long. Doing nothing has consumed 15 years already. If we had begun in 2000 we'd be in control by now and not just reacting, completely ineffectively, to yet another surreal turn of the absurd political wheel - devoid of any real politics.

Posted by: jfl | Jan 3 2015 14:12 utc | 60


I would like to hear how you plan to 'remake the framework' and institute these reforms that will somehow create sovereigns of the People.

Posted by: Wayoutwest | Jan 3 2015 15:12 utc | 61

bjmache @49 & fairleft @54 & jf@57

I have been a conspiracy theorist since I watched Jack Ruby shoot Lee Harvey Oswald "live" on the tv way back when. I was only 11, so may seem specious to say that I knew something was wrong, but I just did. Even tho young & not so articulate, I also called bs on the Warren Commission and can remember having rather heated arguments with my authoritarian parents about it. Why was I born so skeptical? No idea. The rest of my family of origin are died in the wool conservative bible-thumping fundie authoritarians to the nth degree.

Used to be that my "liberal" friends were truly a tad more skeptical & open-minded. My observation is that the propaganda since 9/11/01 has become highly specialized and way more effective bc my "liberal" friends are now every single bit as authoritarian as any good dittohead. No difference.

I have been called names by my "liberal" friends. I have been directed to never ever ever ever ever EVER say one "mean" thing about Sainted Savior Obama from whom all "blessings" flow. I have been called a conspiracy nut and an activist -both being pejorative.

I do have friends as skeptical as me, and that has saved me from some insanity over the years.

I'm not so sure, though, that it's just bourgeois people - who are heavily invested in the system (which, "right" or "left," they are) - who drink this Kool Aid. I think a lot of the rapidly dwindling working classes are the same, especially as most of them STILL view themselves as middle class (which almost doesn't exist anymore). Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

Minorities are more likely to be skeptical, but many that I know are as bought into the system as whites.

Supporting the African American protests against the PD is one way to go, but watch out for sleazy bought off creeps like Al Sharpton - heavily indebted to his corporate paymasters - attempting to "shape" the program there. But yes, support that, and I do.

Mostly, though, it's about tossing out info where I feel it might do some good, and possibly someone can actually HEAR what I'm saying. And I do it with those who identify as conservative as much as I do with those who identify as liberal. As discussed there's hardly any difference between those two "viewpoints" anymore anyway. Most of my "liberal" friends parroted out the same dismissive rightwing talking points against the Occupy movement as my "conservative" friends did. Seriously: hardly ANY difference.

Posted by: RUKidding | Jan 3 2015 17:59 utc | 62

Posted by: jfl | Jan 3, 2015 9:12:26 AM | 59

I think they were meant to split AfD, but AfD has now empbraced them. AfD has got something like 8 percent and they take that from the Conservatives.

Merkel will not be able to form a coalition with them and SPD or Greens, they are beyond the pale, so her chances for a new chancellorship are greatly diminished.

Posted by: somebody | Jan 3 2015 18:38 utc | 63

Dutch media has started talking of airfights taking place over Ukraine the week of the downing of MH17. So I guess MH17 was downed air to air after all.

Posted by: somebody | Jan 3 2015 18:47 utc | 64

@jfl - Transcripts of those would be great. I wonder if there is software available to help speed the process...

Posted by: guest77 | Jan 3 2015 20:26 utc | 65

Unlike Russia, the west values freedom of speech. This devotion is perfectly illustrated by the actions of the major German newspaper Zeit. It has obtained an injunction against ZDF to prevent an episode of the satirical program 'Die Anstalt' from being aired as it questions the impartiality of the publisher of Zeit.

Posted by: Anon E Mouse | Jan 3 2015 20:44 utc | 66

@5 if this blog is disinformation ? Why does Cold hole up here?
Who is the disinformation artist

Posted by: Brian | Jan 3 2015 21:57 utc | 67

@65 west values freedom of speech ? Well UK banned press tv. Seeks to block RT

Posted by: Brian | Jan 3 2015 21:59 utc | 68

LNR commander reveals abductions and torture of Lugansk residents by a competing commander.

Posted by: Ulster | Jan 3 2015 22:17 utc | 69

@68-if these reports of torture are true, well then that's the last straw. Pretty soon the US state department and CIA will need to get involved to fix this mess...

Posted by: Nana2007 | Jan 3 2015 22:26 utc | 70

excellent video on ukraine's situation thanks usa's geo political interests.. articulated by Nikolai Starikov..

thanks for the many great comments and insights from others here..

Posted by: james | Jan 3 2015 22:56 utc | 71

@69 Abduction and torture were continuously reported by Amnesty International and HRW in the past, but obviously rejected by Kremlin lovers as "western propaganda". This is the first time when one commander from Donbass publicly announced that another commander abducted and tortured civilians. And for the first time Russian media have reported this as well, so this is quite unusual.

Which takes us to another news, where Igor Girkin calls Donbass commanders to "follow his example", abandon their posts and flee to Russia.

Posted by: Ulster | Jan 3 2015 22:57 utc | 72

anyone who bothers reading anything from the kviv post needs to have their head examined, especially if they think it is anything other then bs..

Posted by: james | Jan 3 2015 22:57 utc | 73

@72 Oh, every single Russian website is now reporting that. I just linked KP because they provide English translation.

Posted by: Ulster | Jan 3 2015 23:03 utc | 74

@71 yes the leader of the prestigious batman brigade. Why wouldn't it be all over the russian news? This is fun stuff yes?

Posted by: Nana2007 | Jan 3 2015 23:16 utc | 75

@Brian #67:

UK banned press tv. Seeks to block RT.
Wow. I live in the US, and I don't have the feeling that the US has become a totalitarian society. But the UK…

@james #72:

anyone who bothers reading anything from the kviv post needs to have their head examined
I have to say you really baffle me. As far as I know, you are a Canadian with Brit ancestry. With me, figuring out why I have the point of view I have is easy, since I am biculturally American and Russian. But why are you so contrarian? What kept you from being brainwashed and turned into a zombie?

Posted by: Demian | Jan 3 2015 23:47 utc | 76

Jas. at 72 --

I read the KP regularly. I like to get it straight from the horse, so to speak, decide for yourself which end.

and to the item at hand at 68 --

Thanks for bringing this up. I've been meaning to post a few things about politics in the Ukraine but have had other fish to fry.

I note with interest that the article (which does not cite its People's Rep. source) reports that Lugansk authorities put an end to it. Let's compare that with the dissension and repression in the Ukraine.

How about Kharkov Ukrainian Security Service Torture and Kidnapping Department? Or perhaps Right Sector thugs beat up passers-by in Kharkiv. Or maybe this little nugget, Ukrainian forces are said to be extremely aggressive. The general crime rate has increased greatly across Ukraine.

Since I presume you're Orthodox, in the spirit of the season, best to you and yours in as we near the birth of the Nazarene.

Posted by: rufus magister | Jan 4 2015 0:15 utc | 77

to RUK at 61 --

My own politics have long been to the far left, but I have the same exp. now with libs. and progressives. Quite of few of Mrs. M's. sisters have drunk deeply of Barry Choom's Kool-Aid, and will neither hear, see, nor say no evil of Obama.

He's frankly worse than Bush and Chaney. They were open about it; he campaigned against it, but in most areas has doubled down again and obscured that with word salads of sanctimony. If we're light on terror, we make it up with drone strikes -- and lord knows what other sorts of extrajudicial actions.

Posted by: rufus magister | Jan 4 2015 0:26 utc | 78


taking back control of our government

The idea of a 'peoples' virtual party' is more or less tongue in cheek. But the means of regaining control advocated is the only means I can conceive of that can work. Happy to have any free advice from any quarter.

I think the direct action method is the only one that can be effective. I advocate it everywhere, in Thailand, for instance.

Posted by: jfl | Jan 4 2015 0:42 utc | 79

See Fete's latest post on the last open thread. The spirits called up are indeed on the rampage ... no 'master magician' in sight. Never was, never will be.

Posted by: jfl | Jan 4 2015 1:42 utc | 80

jfll at 79 --

Fete's post's are always worth a read, esp. this one. Strelkov discusses the killing of "Batman", condemns it, and concludes by saying:

I did not attempt fighting for power in Novorossia, and left my post as to avoid similar situations as well. Therefore, I call to follow my precedent – in full understanding that other scenario will be bloody, senseless, and will end tragically. Moreover, the tragic final has no alternative in the present situation. A mutiny against Lugansk State will be immediately transformed in a mutiny against Russia. To be sure, in the conditions of the external war any internal discord is inadmissible.

We'll see who is behind it and why.

fairleft at 54 --

As Winston Smith once wrote, if there is any hope, it is with the proles. There is of course a working class. It different in our present financial/services vs. former - future? - industrial econ., and it is more global and multi-cultural. Of course, what remains of the union movement needs to be revived, it has to be a tribune of all workers, not just those directly their members.

Posted by: rufus magister | Jan 4 2015 2:02 utc | 81

@75 demian. i don't know the answer to your question. scot/irish ancestry before they came to canada on the ship macdonald in 1798 - landing in quebec city. i think it was a highlander past which 7 generations later still wants no association with anything british! maybe my ancestors had been screwed over for too long by the english and then we came to canada. i have always been contrarian, not afraid to take a lone position on basically anything i believe in. i guess it was just a coincidence the kiev post was started by some american born jew.. i remain skeptical on the intent and purpose of much of the media.. i automatically default to it all being propaganda as opposed to reality.

in fact there is a lot of subterfuge to the media. the kiev post quotes Denis Kazansky, not before spelling his name 2 different ways, lol.. this is the same bozo who back in june is quoted on this site. "In broad daylight, terrorists are moving Russian tanks to Luhansk towed on platforms, journalist Denis Kazansky writes on Facebook today." this is the kind of fodder brain dead folks get to play with!

@76 rufus - good luck teaching a retard..

Posted by: james | Jan 4 2015 2:23 utc | 82

to jas. at 81 --

Quite often, my posts are intended to benefit not so much the party directly addressed as the larger crowd at the bar. So I don't mind the seemingly thankless work. Little luck never hurts though, tx.

Posted by: rufus magister | Jan 4 2015 2:35 utc | 83

@82 rufus. no offense and my wife has family with a past in liverpool area, lol..

Posted by: james | Jan 4 2015 3:26 utc | 84

@james #81:

Thank you for your answer. I imagine that your contrarian nature is more attributable to you as an individual than to your family background. With me, as I said, it's very simple: because I'm bicultural (actually tricultural, since the culture I identify with the most is 19th century German culture), I take the official US narrative as just that – a narrative – as opposed to reality.

@rufus magister #76:

Why on earth do you conclude that Ulster is Orthodox? No Orthodox person has ever had so much hate as Ulster does. Or as much as you do, for that matter.

Posted by: Demian | Jan 4 2015 3:48 utc | 85

@72 @75

kyivpoat, jewish owned, is bad, and they blocked me on the FB page for my temerity to challenge their reportage

Posted by: brian | Jan 4 2015 3:48 utc | 86

james @ 70: Thanks for the video. Same basic take as the Saker. Worth a listen.

Posted by: ben | Jan 4 2015 4:03 utc | 87

Cannonfire's latest:

Posted by: ben | Jan 4 2015 4:06 utc | 88

in re 84 --

I thought I was promised that I would, in the future, work in peace. Sigh....

He has said that he is from the former Union.

I think my hate exists largely in your mind. Would you please put me out of it?

Posted by: rufus magister | Jan 4 2015 7:10 utc | 89

jas. at 83 --

No offense taken. Liverpool ref. went over my head though.

Posted by: rufus magister | Jan 4 2015 7:41 utc | 90

@88 Demian uses a very simple, all-or-nothing logic for distinguishing haters from believers. It was invented in Soviet Union: if you complain potato prices, you must be hating socialism.

As for torture and abduction: funny that you use some rogue blogs as reference for alleged "torture in Ukraine". If it's so massive, then AI and HRW must be reporting that all the time. But they aren't (actually they did report single cases of abduction or beating by the Ukrainian side, mostly by the volunteer batallions).

Also, interesting no one has commented on Girkin. Neither this time or last time when he proudly confessed he has started the war in Donbass.

Posted by: Ulster | Jan 4 2015 8:29 utc | 91

Posted by: james | Jan 3, 2015 5:56:04 PM | 70

Starikov basically is saying that Russia has created Donbass as "antithesis" to Ukraine to keep the country weak, destabilized and fighting. I hope for Ukrainians that that is not true.

He is a right wing conspiracy nutcase. Here he develops a theory that the United States force Europe to accept immigration - to destroy the national fabric.

Anyway, Oliver Stone seems to have caused some moves on preemptive truth. This here is the New York Times - a recommended read by the US ambassador of Ukraine. Oh no no, it was not an American CIA coup

As the foreign ministers of Germany and Poland and a senior French diplomat met Mr. Yanukovych to negotiate a truce on the evening of Thursday, Feb. 20, at the presidential offices, Mr. Pyatt and several European envoys met at the German Embassy with Andriy Parubiy, the chief of the protesters’ security forces, and told him to keep the Lviv guns away from Kiev.

“We told him: ‘Don’t let these guns come to Kiev. If they come, that will change the whole situation,’ ” Mr. Pyatt recalled telling Mr. Parubiy, who turned up for the meeting wearing a black balaclava.

In a recent interview in Kiev, Mr. Parubiy denied that the guns taken in Lviv ever got to Kiev, but added that the prospect that they might have provided a powerful lever to pressure both Mr. Yanukovych’s camp and Western governments.

“I warned them that if Western governments did not take firmer action against Yanukovych, the whole process could gain a very threatening dimension,” he said.

Andriy Tereschenko, a Berkut commander from Donetsk who was holed up with his men in the Cabinet Ministry, the government headquarters in Kiev, said that 16 of his men had already been shot on Feb. 18 and that he was terrified by the rumors of an armory of automatic weapons on its way from Lviv.

“It was already an armed uprising, and it was going to get worse,” he said. “We understood why the weapons were taken, to bring them to Kiev.”

But no,no,no it was not an armed coup.

Posted by: somebody | Jan 4 2015 9:16 utc | 92

Several commenters on this thread have expressed frustration at the inability/ unwillingness of (otherwise intelligent) MSM-addicted acquaintances to perceive the Ukraine coup as a Russian plot rather than a Western plot.

Here is a cleverly stage-managed TV propaganda piece (masquerading as a debate) from BBC's IQ2 which, when carefully examined for flaws, illustrates just how powerful a tool perception management and manipulation can be in the hands of experts.

The subject is Stop Poking the Bear - The West Needs to Engage with Putin Not Castigate Him and the intro fun kicks off with the choice of 'pro' and 'anti' participants namely:
1. Tony Brenton: ex-UK Ambassador to Russia (pro)
2. Sergey Karaganov: Foreign Policy and Economics advisor to Putin (pro)
3. Julia Ioffe: Putin-hating, fact-free rhetorician, and New Republic stenographer (anti)
4. Edward Lucas: Putin-hating, fact-free rhetorician and Economist stenographer (anti)
Moderator, Nik Gowing, does a very competent job (with IQ2's loaded dice).

The intro fun concludes with the results of a pre-debate Audience Perception Poll and the promise of a post-debate poll.

It runs for 60 minutes. If you can't find its (literally) dozens of serious flaws then you'll be able to forgive your acquaintances for being so easily gulled. If you can spot the flaws then you'll be able to ask them questions which might reveal the particular intellectual shortcomings which made them so easy to hypnotise.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jan 4 2015 14:35 utc | 93

Oops. First sentence should have ended with perceive the Ukraine coup as a Western plot rather than a Russian plot.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jan 4 2015 14:51 utc | 94

Ulster @ 90 --

Kiev prosecutors citing open cases is not just some "rogue" website. If want to descredit the messenger, you will have to do so particularly and not with a blanket smear. Start with and FortRuss, who reposted them, work back to the underlying articles. If you have the time for it, of course.

Didn't you not read b's. lead post and later quotes from WaPo in the thread? When the MSM says their minions have discipline and command-and-control problems, then you're in a heap of trouble.

Don't you recall that I commented on the Strelkov interview in Zavtra? Reuters had a nice account of it. It noted that the occupations in the Donbas started days and days before Strelkov's actions. I took it as evidence against your assertion that it was all Strelkov's doing, but rather was but a part of a broader mass movement.

Posted by: rufus magister | Jan 4 2015 15:40 utc | 95

@92 I would think the spooky caricature of Putin on the screen had some effect on the audience.

Posted by: dh | Jan 4 2015 15:51 utc | 96

@85 demian. i think you are right. it is more individualistic on my part then not. narrative as opposed to reality is a good way to think of all info we are given and share.

@86 brian.. that was the initial history on the kiev post. different owners now, and i don't know who they are..

@89 rufus.. i think you have @84 but mean @85.. - your @90. thanks.

@92 somebody. what ukrainian in their right mind would want to invite the gods of war? well okay - the oligarchs might think they could take advantage of the situation.. don't understand how anyone would fail to see how oligarchs have no nationality, or only in so far as it serves their malevolent purposes. at any rate - i think starikov is insightful in that video. you call him a right wing conspiracy nutcase - i think he speaks a fair amount of truth and has many good insights. what part of that video i shared was it that you didn't agree with? or did you even watch it? here is another one from starikov from about a week ago that is also good. it's about russian monetary issues for anyone interested.

i can't read the nyt.. makes my eyes sore, lol.. i was aware that stone had come out saying he was going to make a movie on the ukraine coup.. he's not going to get any cookies from nuland! i think ulster and cold in the head ate them all anyway, lol!

Posted by: james | Jan 5 2015 4:10 utc | 97

jas. -- yes, I did mean 85, my bad.... Ref. to Ulster/Belfast vs. Liverpool?

Gratuitous Music Link -- First Irish air I learned to play (horribly out of practice now) was "The Leaving of Liverpool." I like the live version by Makem & Clancy best, but this with the young Tommy Makem will do nicely.

Posted by: rufus magister | Jan 6 2015 0:54 utc | 98

and, er, that would make ulster at 91 for my 95... was not a good day apparently.

Posted by: rufus magister | Jan 6 2015 1:09 utc | 99

james' video @71.

I thought it was very interesting, and the Russian guy described Britain's 'divide-and-conquer' policy well.

Posted by: MRW | Jan 6 2015 20:51 utc | 100

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