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December 11, 2014
Open Thread 2014-31
News & views …
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A particularly good story that clearly describes the strategy used by the Obama administration to keep the CIA torture program as undisclosed as possible is Charlie Savage’s U.S. Tells Court That Documents From Torture Investigation Should Remain Secret. Here is a critical passage:
Posted by: Mike Maloney | Dec 11 2014 21:02 utc | 1 I just watched the full speech, he never calls for those who perpetrated these crimes to be prosecuted! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuUDTWzzcIQ&list=PLuf794ZZ4y0sNXsemmabViDQWBHNawXtz Posted by: Tom Murphy | Dec 11 2014 21:03 utc | 2 USA Scuttled Negotiations to Free American Killed in Yemen Posted by: the intercept | Dec 11 2014 21:05 utc | 3 US agency infiltrated Cuban hip-hop scene to spark youth unrest:
Posted by: Maracatu | Dec 11 2014 21:09 utc | 4 A perfect opportunity for Russia to place anyone associated with torture on its sanctions list or better yet issue an arrest warrant for each of them. Posted by: Lysander | Dec 11 2014 21:20 utc | 5 great idea lysander.. i wonder how many politicians from the usa that would include? Posted by: james | Dec 11 2014 21:26 utc | 7 This is just ridiculous. Posted by: Anonymous | Dec 11 2014 21:50 utc | 8 @ James Posted by: Lysander | Dec 11 2014 21:56 utc | 9 this deserves a thread of its own: Posted by: brian | Dec 11 2014 22:26 utc | 10 James @9- thanks for the link. I agree with Taibbi- now that the cat’s out of the bag and no one is held accountable there will be a next time and it will be much worse. Think Terry Gilliam’s Brasil. Posted by: Nana2007 | Dec 11 2014 23:29 utc | 11 @ 11 Posted by: Lysander | Dec 12 2014 0:54 utc | 12 Bhadrakumar’s latest on the geopolitics surrounding the recent drop in oil prices vis-a-vis Iran/Saudi Arabia Posted by: Almand | Dec 12 2014 1:23 utc | 13 hmm Posted by: denk | Dec 12 2014 4:37 utc | 14 It will be interesting to see if this comes to anything:
This blogger is a reactionary (he thinks the EU is run by leftists), but his hatred of Atlanticism leads him to take a consistently interesting line. He seems to take a consistently conservative position. Thus, he believes that Europe should recognize its Christian identity, but is also supportive of Erdogan’s neo-Ottoman project. somebody out to make a fast buck… Posted by: denk | Dec 12 2014 6:12 utc | 16 @13 @jfl #15: @16 Posted by: jfl | Dec 12 2014 8:36 utc | 19 Merkel’s government has become a farce. On its Web site, the German government said that Crimea has Ukrainians, Tatars, and Germans, but didn’t mention Russians, who actually make up the majority of the population. I wonder why none of the questions at Brennan’s “press conference” dealt with questions of credibility – “Isn’t a fact that you lied in the teeth of the U.S. Congress about torture?”, “Hasn’t the CIA lied over and over again about the existence and the effectiveness of of it’s torture program”, “Why are you afraid to call it torture – since it is so defined in U.S. law?”, “So do you deny that the CIA or associates hacked the computers of the very Congressional committee investigating it?”, “Hasn’t the CIA repeatedly obstructed justice by destroying evidence of crime, i.e., the torture tapes?”, “Isn’t there a moral dimension to the question of torture – if not, do you advocate repealing U.S. law against torture?”, “Doesn’t all of the above show that you, and the CIA, consider yourselves above the law?” Posted by: kirth gersen | Dec 12 2014 13:00 utc | 21 Posted by: Lysander | Dec 11, 2014 4:20:04 PM | 5 Posted by: jo6pac | Dec 12 2014 15:15 utc | 22 Latest from Penny: http://pennyforyourthoughts2.blogspot.com/ Posted by: ben | Dec 12 2014 15:39 utc | 23 Sen Carl Levin wrote a letter about how the CIA tried to force the Czech Republic to back the lie of Mohammed Atta meeting an Iraqi govt agent in Prague.Interesting. Posted by: dahoit | Dec 12 2014 15:44 utc | 24 New toy for the military, oh what joy: Posted by: ben | Dec 12 2014 15:51 utc | 25 the smoking gun…. Posted by: denk | Dec 12 2014 16:48 utc | 26 @ 22. Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Dec 12 2014 16:56 utc | 27 A laser cannon could be handy for damaging stationary, land-based targets but getting the ship on which it is installed close enough to aim it accurately, and far enough away to avoid being blown out of the water, could be problematic. Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Dec 12 2014 17:11 utc | 28 @ 24 & 25: I think most posters here understand the concept of NOT believing everything that’s posted here:) At least I hope so. Posted by: ben | Dec 12 2014 18:08 utc | 30 @9 lysander. i agree with you on this as, but i wonder how much the western msm would cover it? it seems like the only info that goes to press is info scathing of russia, but never of the usa and the west. this disclosure of the cia’s torture program and agenda would be an exception and perhaps a type of watershed moment. we’ll see. i am beyond cynical at this point. Posted by: james | Dec 12 2014 18:29 utc | 31 @9 lysander – LOL all weekend! While they are at it maybe they should give Tsarnaev’s defense team all the info they shared with the FBI about the investigation into his brother Tamerlane. hahahahahaha. What goes around comes around. Posted by: sillybill | Dec 12 2014 20:04 utc | 32 @25. You have a point Hoarse. When you look at the details these things rarely measure up. That won’t stop the navy ordering a few thousand. Posted by: dh | Dec 12 2014 20:18 utc | 33 Ben@22, I would like to see the USS Ponce, very appropriately named [a man who lives off a prostitutes earnings]fend off an attack by the most rudimentary undersea attack vessel, of which Iran for instance, have an abundance of. Posted by: harry law | Dec 12 2014 20:51 utc | 34 I am late in finding your site. I was clued to it by an investment advisory group so you are hitting all segments of US Society! Posted by: Alice Maxwell | Dec 12 2014 21:25 utc | 35 Symbolic powers, archetypes,psychoid entities whatever you might call them, they are accompanying the crazy and the humble with their light in the sky, and what goes up must come down, according to their daily example. Posted by: mundanomaniac | Dec 12 2014 22:32 utc | 36 @18 Demian Posted by: jfl | Dec 12 2014 22:56 utc | 37 http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-cheers-us-vote-military-aid-russia-outraged-205849643.html Posted by: jo6pac | Dec 12 2014 23:01 utc | 38 http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/12/12/389896/how-to-protest-israels-settlements/ Posted by: guest77 | Dec 12 2014 23:45 utc | 40 @35 @36 Posted by: jfl | Dec 12 2014 23:52 utc | 41 @37 guest – israel=rogue nation. laws don’t matter, but shite what a watered down statement that is from hrw – “…the practice can amount to a “war crime.”” Posted by: james | Dec 13 2014 0:03 utc | 42 @37 Posted by: jfl | Dec 13 2014 0:14 utc | 43 Max Keiser has an great takedown of all the clowns in the West crowing over the Russian rouble being down. His co-host, Stacy, likens those craven fools gloating over Russian inflation to Madeline Albright’s crowing over the death of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children due to western sanctions in the 1990s. Posted by: guest77 | Dec 13 2014 1:54 utc | 44 Max Keiser has an great takedown of all the clowns in the West crowing over the Russian rouble being down. His co-host, Stacy, likens those craven fools gloating over Russian inflation to Madeline Albright’s crowing over the death of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children due to western sanctions in the 1990s. Posted by: guest77 | Dec 13 2014 1:55 utc | 45 @42 guest – finances are critical to the well being of a country. the issue of the rouble is a major concern. unfortunately no one seems interested in understanding the opaque circumstances surrounding money and monetary policy, let alone concepts about central banks and etc. it seems this conversation pops up every week to two weeks.. i happened to notice the saker has an article up by sergei glaziev which you or others might enjoy reading here. Posted by: james | Dec 13 2014 2:34 utc | 46 @41 @42 Posted by: jfl | Dec 13 2014 2:41 utc | 47 The EU and the Ukraine stand to lose the most from the current US policies against Russia
All of what the Saker says makes sense, but the USA is bereft of sense, the EU is following its mad lead, and the people running the Ukraine seem perfectly willing to burn Ukraine to the ground and hightail it to the UK, along with their brothers, the Russian oligarchs. Posted by: jfl | Dec 13 2014 3:19 utc | 48 The only hope now does seem to be in Saker’s last sentence … the revolt of the Ukrainian troops, “We who are about to die … turn out arms against the Emperor instead!”. Maybe it will happen. Posted by: jfl | Dec 13 2014 3:23 utc | 49 @43 haha, thx, sorry for the double post. Posted by: guest77 | Dec 13 2014 3:24 utc | 50 @44 – I do fear this more than anything. The Ukrainian and Russian people forced into war by the west. And what a vicious, brutal war it would be. And likely the end of any independent action for any country on the globe anywhere. Posted by: guest77 | Dec 13 2014 3:32 utc | 51 I have to re-recommend Lenin’s “Imperialism: The Highest Level of Capitalism” to everyone. It’s a super fast read and very readable. Like an economics op ed by Michael Hudson – that level.
Consider NYC and London – filled with bankers, oligarchs, and trust funders, others doing well as culture workers or in tech firms. Real industry gone away, the cities flooded with tourists and fun-seekers. Lenin wrote this 100 years ago, yet it describes the present almost perfectly. Much of the book will strike readers like this I think. It did me. Posted by: guest77 | Dec 13 2014 4:08 utc | 52 Last post, I promose: Posted by: guest77 | Dec 13 2014 4:11 utc | 53 Russian Spring Posted by: Fete | Dec 13 2014 4:59 utc | 54 guest 77 @ 37: Thanks for the Galloway piece. Another great voice crying in the wilderness. Posted by: ben | Dec 13 2014 5:08 utc | 55 Time to drop a few quarters in the jukebox. Posted by: rufus magister | Dec 13 2014 5:55 utc | 56 Time to throw a few quarters in the juke box. Posted by: rufus magister | Dec 13 2014 5:59 utc | 57 russia beware, the sobs have 11 biowar labs in ukraine ! Posted by: denk | Dec 13 2014 6:01 utc | 58 Corr to 53 Posted by: rufus magister | Dec 13 2014 6:02 utc | 59 g77 at 46 — Posted by: rufus magister | Dec 13 2014 6:04 utc | 60 post with a link.. maybe putting the link into it is interfering with my ability to post!!! Posted by: james | Dec 13 2014 6:31 utc | 64 post without link is what i meant.. when i try to post with link – it doesn’t post.. Posted by: james | Dec 13 2014 6:34 utc | 65 @rufus magister #53: @22 Posted by: YY | Dec 13 2014 7:07 utc | 67 @james #60: The problem with the ‘opacity’ of the imperial banking system is not accidental, it is purposeful. ‘Economics’ is another name for bullshit. I always suspected that, as the ‘economists’, aka bullshit artists, ‘discovered’ that economics was governed by ‘natural laws’. And that the ‘free market’ was natures way. The disintegration of ‘economics’ in 2008 proved wht economics was, and is : the description of the MO of the mob of banksters who rob us blind, as viewed in the rear view mirror of their getaway vehicle … properly obfuscated to daze, and confuse those who have not acquired a taste for bullshit. Or just put real people to sleep. Posted by: jfl | Dec 13 2014 7:33 utc | 69 Interesting take on new EU president Tusk – Tusk Expands EU Russia Response With Pro-U.S. Worldview. My post on an earlier thread … ○ State Capture and the Democratic Movement by Kees van der Pijl #63 YY posedL I wonder if a mirror would make a good defense against a laser canon. Posted by: ToivoS | Dec 13 2014 9:41 utc | 73 Posted by: jfl | Dec 13, 2014 2:33:24 AM | 65
I think he is wrong, as these deals are political, mean that currencies will have to be valued against each other, and cheap investment (from the point of view of dollars) will get low return (from the point of view of dollars). Seems to me, the consequence will be a “first world” and a “second world” trade zone where the “second world” wins the war for resources. On the other hand, when all those dollars come back home to roost, maybe the dollar will devalue enough for the re-industrialization of the US. Posted by: somebody | Dec 13 2014 10:20 utc | 74 @67 @68 Posted by: jfl | Dec 13 2014 10:52 utc | 75 @69 @63
… at least I enjoyed it. Easy to find, just type in the title at btdigg dot org. Posted by: jfl | Dec 13 2014 11:28 utc | 76 Add to: Posted by: somebody | Dec 13 2014 11:56 utc | 77 It appears that Russia is acting economically responsible. The west should follow suit. Posted by: really | Dec 13 2014 12:32 utc | 78 My apologies moa’ers I fouled the link. Here it is. Posted by: really | Dec 13 2014 12:34 utc | 79 @67 Posted by: jfl | Dec 13 2014 12:41 utc | 80 Defense against lasers is best accomplished by using materials to decohere the light beam. Mirrors won’t work because the backing – unless perfectly reflective as noted above – will melt. Posted by: c1ue | Dec 13 2014 15:04 utc | 81 Demian @ 16, spot on. (and jfl following @ 17. Yes Demian, Flores piece was really poor for him.) Posted by: Noirette | Dec 13 2014 15:55 utc | 82 @Noirette 53;Whiskey in the jar was first recorded by Thin Lizzie back in the day,and yes,Metallica does it well.My favorite Tull album will always be This Was ,and I remember it being the album of Woodstock,as every hearse(a bunch of them,it was standard hippie vehicle) played it. Posted by: dahoit | Dec 13 2014 17:06 utc | 84 Here’s an interesting debunking of the myth of Khodorkovsky as some sort of principled oppositionist. From Russia Insider, John Hellveg argues that the Jailing of Khodorkovsky Was Crucial for Russia’s Prosperity.
He cites work by Michael Hudson and Marshall Goldman, amongst others, for the details of Khodorkovsky’s dealings.
Something for the suspicious to consider, Is Kaliningrad NATO’s Real Target?. Posted by: rufus magister | Dec 13 2014 17:07 utc | 85 And of course after I posted, I found the second pc. by Johnstone I wanted to post. Sho posed the question on Kaliningrad. Also from Counterpunch, Frack the EU: Washington’s Frozen War Against Russia assesses the situation and DC’s expectations. Here’s her introduction.
She goes on to say that US petro-interest (we’re looking at you, Hunter Biden!), amongst others, are interested in the Ukraine’s assets. Posted by: rufus magister | Dec 13 2014 17:23 utc | 86 Oops, I nearly forgot, in case anyone argues that the West Ukaine landscape is filled with “Shiny Happy People” and represents the way forward for the Ukraine, point them towards Patrick Cockburn’s To see what Ukraine’s future might be, just look at Lviv’s shameful past. His conclusion:
PS. The REM cut, w/Kate Pierson of the B-52’s, is a suitable antidote to the gloom and doom postings. Add their “It’s the End of the World (And I feel Fine)” if you want to up the black humour quotient. Posted by: rufus magister | Dec 13 2014 17:49 utc | 87 @80 rufus Posted by: jfl | Dec 13 2014 17:53 utc | 88 @78
… and so is Helmut Kohl …
… and now Merkel has said this is how it is. Posted by: jfl | Dec 13 2014 18:16 utc | 89 jfl @ 83 — Posted by: rufus magister | Dec 13 2014 18:54 utc | 90 @56/57 rufus.. thanks for checking that out.. yes – bruce cockburn – great song. thanks for the other links as well which i will have to find time to check out!! Posted by: james | Dec 13 2014 20:14 utc | 91 i am having problems posting on this site now for some reason… Posted by: james | Dec 13 2014 20:16 utc | 92 Ukrainian militias killed tens of thousands of Jews when Hitler invaded in 1941. But current Zionist oligarchs do not seem to care. Posted by: Andoheb | Dec 13 2014 21:02 utc | 93 Wonder if Russia will break the sanctions on Iran if the West continues upping the ante. Seems like a smart thing to do. Posted by: Andoheb | Dec 13 2014 21:05 utc | 94 jas @ 91 Posted by: rufus magister | Dec 13 2014 22:02 utc | 95 Having gone on at length about music, I’d normally shut up for a while. But a grim bit of news recently posted at New Cold War, not really a surprise, regrettably, Communist Party offices in Kiev attacked by neo-nazis, who have then posted video about it, the article reports. Posted by: rufus magister | Dec 13 2014 22:19 utc | 96 As long as we’re recommending music – Posted by: guest77 | Dec 13 2014 23:20 utc | 97 hm… sorry. I must have mangled that somehow… you get the gist. Posted by: guest77 | Dec 13 2014 23:20 utc | 98 @92 Posted by: jfl | Dec 13 2014 23:49 utc | 99 g77 @ 97 — Posted by: rufus magister | Dec 14 2014 0:17 utc | 100 |
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