Hong Kong: The “Radicalize Or Fold” Alternative

October 4, 2014

The protest in Hong Kong, instigated by U.S. financed groups, were on the verge of ending in a fizzle.

Hong Kong protests dwindle after talks offer

Mass protests in Hong Kong appear to have lost steam after the leader of the Chinese territory refused to step down, instead offering dialogue.
…
The Hong Kong Federation of Students said in a statement early on Friday that they planned to join the talks with the government, focused specifically on political reforms. They reiterated that Leung step down, saying he “had lost his integrity”.

A wider pro-democracy group that had joined the demonstrations, Occupy Central, welcomed the talks and also insisted that Leung quit.

The offer for talks, the weather and the end of a two day holiday was the point where the protests largely died down. A few diehards kept blocking streets and buildings but the end was in sight.

Remarked a political editor of a U.S. magazine:

Blake Hounshell
‏@blakehounshell

When protesters don’t get at least some of what they want, they have to radicalize or fold. Key moment in Hong Kong right now.

5:36 AM – 2 Oct 2014

It seems that other people had the same thought and some idea of how to radicalize the crowd:

Hundreds of people opposed to Hong Kong’s pro-democracy demonstrations converged on one of the movement’s main sites Friday, prompting some of the ugliest scenes of violence yet in the past week of protests.

In the early afternoon on Friday, opponents of the demonstrations moved en masse against the occupation site in the neighborhood of Mong Kok, a popular shopping district across the harbor from Hong Kong. They dismantled tents and removed the protesters’ supplies. Scuffles broke out, with reports of roving street battles between protesters and their opponents.

The predictable consequence of that attack, certainly not in the interest of the government, was a revival of the protests and a hardening of the protesters position:

Student leaders called off talks with the government – offered the previous night – accusing officials of allowing violence to be used against them. It dashed the hopes of a resolution to a mass movement that has seen tens of thousands of people take to the streets of the city at its height.

So who paid the thugs, the police says some attackers were members of criminal triads, who instigated the radicalization? The government which wants to end the protests, the businesspeople who lose money due to the blockades or some three letter agency of foreign provenience?

The government now announced that it will end the protesters’ blockades of public roads and buildings by Monday. As I had warned in an earlier piece:

While earlier Color Revolutions employed mostly peaceful measures the aim now is blood in the streets and lots of infrastructure damage to weaken the forces resisting the regime change attempts. Accordingly the authorities in Hong Kong should prepare for much more than just unruly demonstrations.

Posted by b on October 4, 2014 at 12:38 UTC | Permalink

Comments

I think the degree of violence will dictate the amount of outside interference that is involved in these ” protests”. Snipers on the rooftops? I doubt it.

Posted by: ben | Oct 4 2014 13:58 utc | 1

Russia and China need to round up all of the Empires NGOs and send them to Siberia.

Posted by: par4 | Oct 4 2014 14:00 utc | 2

What might have some chance of working in the West will fail in China, and Western views will fail also. Chinese, and many Asians in general, have a more benign view of centralized authority then Western democrats do. The idea of teenagers in the streets dictating to government, a higher authority, in China is doomed to fail, even given the youngsters’ Western views.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 4 2014 14:13 utc | 3

#3
Well, is it possible to be too benign? Where does a benign attitude of centralized authority allow a repressive government to perpetuate?

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Oct 4 2014 15:08 utc | 4

Yep, probably fold.
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/10/04/hong-o04.html
Hong Kong protests ebb
By Peter Symonds
4 October 2014
Protests in Hong Kong calling for open elections waned yesterday after protest leaders shelved their demand for the resignation of chief executive Leung Chun-ying and accepted an offer of talks with chief secretary Carrie Lam. After a week of demonstrations involving tens of thousands of people, the crowds at the protest sites fell to the hundreds or less.
As the numbers ebbed, the protests came under attack from pro-government thugs who took advantage of the growing frustration over the disruption to businesses, jobs and daily life among working people. The main clashes took place in the Mong Kok area, an oppressed working-class district that is also known for its notorious triad gangs.
Thugs wearing masks repeatedly attempted to break through police lines throughout the evening and force protesters out of the area. At least 19 people were arrested, including eight described by police as having “triad backgrounds.” While police and authorities have denied any connection to the attacks, the use of triad gangs to do the dirty work for government and businesses has a long history in Hong Kong.

Posted by: okie farmer | Oct 4 2014 15:08 utc | 5

Is it really a “fizzle” if an offer of talks came out of these protests? I thought an attempt to settle issues by negotiation would be a desirable outcome.

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Oct 4 2014 15:12 utc | 6

The protesters shot themselves in the collective foot when they adopted, and then uttered, the Obama-ism “Leung must step down” AFTER he had offered to negotiate on their demands for reforms including ‘universal suffrage.’
Rejecting Leung before negotiations began, and thus depriving him of the opportunity do demonstrate good faith, was an act of utter and complete dumbfuckery and makes them sound like Chinese sock-puppets of the 1%’s sock-puppet, Obama.
Gene Sharp would be proud. If they don’t come to their senses quicksmart they should prepare for a prolonged bout of universal sufferage.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Oct 4 2014 15:33 utc | 7

So who paid the thugs, the police says some attackers were members of criminal triads, who instigated the radicalization?
It bears investigating who exactly these people were, but I wouldn’t buy into the idea they are provocateurs necessarily.
In the face of these colour revolutions, a local mobilization of the loyal population is an absolute necessity. A country cannot simply rely on the repression of police forces against the Western-backed groups. As seen in Venezuela – a seemingly forgotten about color revolution that has failed (though the right wingers still murder with impunity) – local involvement of the population against the protestors is vital.
When government have genuine support – as the CCP does have among sectors in Hong Kong, as the Chavista’s do have in Venezuela – then the people can and should be used in counter-protests to put down or restrict the scope of the foreign backed protests.
When a government does not have immediate support, like that of Yanoukovich in Ukraine, they have to rely on police for repression and this creates much worse looking scenes for the cameras, much more problems internationally.
This is a battle for the life of the country, we shouldn’t reject the participation of loyal people. Calling regular people ready to reassert control of their neighborhoods without the police “thugs” I think is incorrect and unhelpful.

Posted by: guest77 | Oct 4 2014 15:54 utc | 8

@8 sorry, VE link: here

Posted by: guest77 | Oct 4 2014 15:55 utc | 9

And I DO NOT mean “local people” as a euphemism for hired thugs. I am talking about genuine popular action – wether this was, or not, I don’t know.
But we have seen genuine popular action squash color revolutions in Venezuela and Lebanon and we’ve seen popular movements and organizations steel Syria against foreign attack. We will see such things in Russia should there be foreign-backed unrest in the future, and we may be seeing such a thing in Hong Kong today.

Posted by: guest77 | Oct 4 2014 16:02 utc | 10

@Inkan1969 #4
…allow a repressive government to perpetuate
Do you have any evidence of a repressive government in Hong Kong, or did you make it up.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 4 2014 16:14 utc | 11

China Matters has written on an interesting character in this story, “Next Media boss and China pariah Jimmy Lai Chee-ying.”
Including:
–According to earlier reports, Lai and Paul Wolfowitz went on a five-day visit to Burma in June last year.
–Wolfowitz, a former Pentagon operative (Iraq war) and World Bank president, is with American Enterprise Institute (AEI), a capitalist-promoting think tank.
–Lai and Wolfowitz boarded a yacht in Sai Kung on May 27 and were not seen again for five hours.
–Lai has donated more than HK$40 million to the pan-democratic camp and legislators in Hong Kong since 2012.
Read about Lai here and here.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 4 2014 16:44 utc | 12

@3 Don Bacon:
While the general perception in the west is that Asians are in general more submissive to authorities, this in fact is hogwash. I have lived here in the US for 45 years now, and I have never seen a population more submissive to oligarchs than the sheeples (or as the Goldman Sachs called muppets) here. Since the Ronny years of Contra and Credit Union bailout conspiracies, muppets’ been led through the nose on Long Term Management fiasco, Desert Storm I (and No Fly Zone II), Yugoslavia bulldoze, ME wars, color revolutions, ……, you name them. Slaughtering and destruction of humans and their habitats, one after and other. For enriching the Military/Industrial complex? I don’t know, but I don’t recall any of these undertaking being initiated or demanded by the muppets, or anyone I know around me. They shoved these down our throats and we swallowed–not a wimp. And look at OWS, the anger against TRAP, against ObamaCare, against bombing Syria, on and on. What did we do but rollover? How would these kinds of color revolutions work in the west that you don’t think would work in China?
Denk’s posts on the Umbrella Revolution in HK has been the most accurate assessments of the situation. I know because I was from HK, and still read its papers online everyday and visit at least once every year to visit family.

Posted by: OleImmigrant | Oct 4 2014 16:47 utc | 13

Flashback to 2011: John McCain promises that the Arab Spring is like a virus that will spread to Moscow and Beijing. Quite a prediction, I’d say.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/11/the-arab-spring-a-virus-that-will-attack-moscow-and-beijing/248762/

Posted by: yellowsnapdragon | Oct 4 2014 16:54 utc | 14

The cultivation of subversion against PRC in HK has long been around, since at least the early 1980’s. I think shortly after the signing of the Sino/UK agreement on HK reversion. The large gathering supporting the Tiananman revolution in 1989 was the first sign of their success. Back around 1985,or 6, Wall Street Journal published a long interview of Jimmy Lai when he was nobody! I was surprised then why some unknown such as this bump would drew WSJ to devote a two column long interview? It soon became apparent who Jimmy was working for.

Posted by: OleImmigrant | Oct 4 2014 17:01 utc | 15

“While the general perception in the west is that Asians are in general more submissive to authorities, this in fact is hogwash.”
I think this is true. China has a long tradition of popular action, even under the Communist government. Possibly especially under it.
Let’s recall that the Communist revolution was no top down affair, and certainly no example of submissiveness.
We hear often of effective acts of civil disobedience, strikes and, indeed, even riots happening in China. Strikes have been an effective way of boosting the income of Chinese workers – just as they were what brought the US up to its highest standards of living following the Second World War. To me this isn’t a sign of a “weak Chinese support for their system”, but a positive example of popular action in Chinese society. It’s an embarrassment that we don’t see more such outbursts in the US.
I have a hard time getting a Chinese perspective on such actions (my own ignorance), but I present, with caution, reports from Bloomberg and the WSJ.

Posted by: guest77 | Oct 4 2014 17:28 utc | 16

@16 guest77
It’s not easy to get a glimpse of the Chinese perspective cos so few amongst us in the west read Chinese. Same goes for other Asian nations. Who would have foreseen the u-turn in politics of Myanmar, as we don’t get to see what’s on the ground there for the last decade? OTOH, following neatly to the Chinese line of discourses would be as haphazard as following NYT and WAPO alone for a world views. I noticed here (and at Vineyard Saker’s) that those who read Russian presentations of events are in general more succinct and deep on understanding what’s happening around us. Your posts have always been a pleasure to learn from.

Posted by: OleImmigrant | Oct 4 2014 17:48 utc | 17

From what I understood, the protesters have been blocking roads, preventing people from going to work and keeping businesses in the immediate areas closed. What I’ve seen from the pictures and videos so far, a lot of the anti-protest crowd has been older people–including some grandpas and grannies, and they seem to be mostly angry that the protesters are disrupting other people’s lives and livelihoods. As for possible Triad involvements, they may very well be involved, but in addition to the hypotheses of them being hired by protest instigators/pro-government side, another possibility is that they’re simply trying to protect their “bottom lines”, so to speak.
(By the way, another slight impression I’ve been getting these days–only an impression–is that on English language “anti-establishment” websites and blogs, people do seem to be somewhat more trusting of MSM reports when it comes to China, in comparison with discussion about other places…But that may very well be due to my own point of view.)

Posted by: Chinese american | Oct 4 2014 17:49 utc | 18

The HK media is now lamenting the economic impacts of what is happening. In reality, HK’s fate as a world premier financial center had been dashed when China announced the establishment of Chien Hai in Shenzhen as the financial center back in 2012. The Chien Hai district would be a modern financial ‘service’ center, meaning it would serve not only the financial transaction but also the chain of services needed in making it efficient in the 21st century sense–logistics, technical support, financing and supply of talent needed for major technological undertakings, currency managements, and innovation breeding grounds vsi-a-vis Silicon valley. In my view, HK is finished. It would remain a entertainment and shopping destination for quite a while yet, due to its infra-structures and beauty. But as far as growth in economical importance to China or the world, it is done for.

Posted by: OleImmigrant | Oct 4 2014 17:59 utc | 19

@19 Also one wonders if Chinese companies will be eager to hire any HK university graduates.

Posted by: dh | Oct 4 2014 18:05 utc | 20

@20
Oh they never wanted to work for Chinese companies anyway ;). They have dreams of being taken care of at places like Columbia, Stanford, Oxford.

Posted by: OleImmigrant | Oct 4 2014 18:15 utc | 21

well, there’s report that a lot of protesters are organized christian groups

Posted by: mir | Oct 4 2014 18:17 utc | 22

@22,
as evidenced by all the main instigators–Jimmy Lai, Martin Lee, Anson Fong-Chan, The Catholic Cardinal Chen Yut Quen.

Posted by: OleImmigrant | Oct 4 2014 18:24 utc | 23

@16 guest77
I don’t know about other Asian nations, but I would agree that Chinese people are not more submissive to authorities in general. There is a long tradition of political action and “mass events”, and there are a lot of them now. However, I do want to mention that in China, if one actually is thinking about regime change, than most Chinese would probably tell you that protests, even riots, won’t do it. Since ancient times, regime change in China have always occurred through war and oceans of blood. The first well-documented large-scale peasant rebellion in China, which developed the explicit goal of overthrowing the Qin Dynasty, happened around 200 BC. It did not succeed, but its successors did. There has been plenty of “change of dynasties” (or regime change, to use a modern phrase) in Chinese history since. The communist revolution might have started with protests, but it won by a civil war that eventually mounted military campaigns that involved forces of a million or more.
So imho, I would not necessarily say that Chinese people are more submissive, however, I do think after all this, they do, in general, have a very strong sense of national identity. (Though of course, I do not claim to speak for Chinese people in general; this is the sense of what I observe.) And I believe this sense of identity includes a strong, unified Chinese state. There have been periods of division in China’s history, but they were generally also times of civil war, when the oceans of blood were being spilled, and people generally see them as dark times that would be eventually ended by one party emerging victorious and reestablishing the central state. (And that party would be seen as the hero.)
Francis Fukuyama, in his 2011 book The Origins of Political Order, suggested that China was the first “modern state”, which appeared with the unification of the Qin Dynasty. I know that he’s been a neo-con, at least at one point, and I’m not saying that all, or even most, of what he says are right, but I do think this is one idea that bears some thought. The existence of China that bore at least some features of the modern state has been orders of magnitudes longer than most states, including the Western nations, where the political theories that get taught as “universal”, at least in some sense, and which people often take for granted, developed. From this point of view, I think when one makes analogies, or tries to apply one’s political theories (of whatever stripe), one does have to first ask: does it apply? (I am not saying that none of it has any application to China, or advocating some form of “Chinese exceptionalism”, but merely saying that there does not seem to be any obvious a priori proof that they do.)

Posted by: Chinese american | Oct 4 2014 18:24 utc | 24

“In my view, HK is finished. It would remain a entertainment and shopping destination for quite a while yet, due to its infra-structures and beauty. But as far as growth in economical importance to China or the world, it is done for.”
No chinese city can yet replace hong kong. Hong kong is a financial center because people believe in its independent judiciary, free market, rule of law and free from chinese government interference. Is any foreign investor going to put their money on mainland china where the judiciary always rule in favorite of the government in any business dispute?

Posted by: mir | Oct 4 2014 18:24 utc | 25

@25,
would foreign capitals trust Chinese laws and jurisdiction? We shall see. But as of the end 2013, total volume of trade at the Shanghai Exchange exceeded that of HKSE.

Posted by: OleImmigrant | Oct 4 2014 18:41 utc | 26

Posted by: OleImmigrant | Oct 4, 2014 2:41:40 PM | 26
It does not matter.
It is the Chinese who have got the capital.

Posted by: somebody | Oct 4 2014 18:51 utc | 27

@26
But they are squandering them on vain junks and travels 🙁
http://www.economist.com/news/china/21596568-china-has-world-biggest-trade-deficit-services-number-great-import
The Chinese Statistical Bureau estimates that for 2014, China’s net tourism deficit is destined to exceed US$1000 Billion. Sorry I don’t have the link for this tidbit, because it is in Chinese.

Posted by: OleImmigrant | Oct 4 2014 19:32 utc | 28

Typo above. meant to say US$100, not 10 times that.

Posted by: OleImmigrant | Oct 4 2014 19:34 utc | 29

First posts—Greetings to everyone on MoA!
@guest77 comment 8
I agree completely that a government with popular support must mobilize the people to defend sovereignty against “color revolutions” (™) and other foreign intervention. In the past I believe I’ve heard this described as dealing with a contradiction politically rather than repressively or administratively.
Among others, one important reason why the “color revolution” fizzled in Venezuela as opposed to the Ukraine is that, for a long history of reasons, US support for any institution or movement is pretty much a kiss of death politically throughout Latin America.
The thing is to organize. The Venezuelan people were able to foil the attempted coup and rescue Chavez partly through the mutiny of working class rank and file soldiers against their oligarchic officers. Since the coup attempt the Chavistas have facilitated popular political organization on the local level and through forming the Socialist Unity Party of Venezuela (PSUV).
In comparison with the long revolutionary tradition you note I don’t know the current extent or nature of such popular organization/mobilization in Hong Kong or China as a whole, but I believe it will be increasingly seen as an essential inoculation against “color revolution-itis” globally…

Posted by: Vintage Red | Oct 4 2014 19:53 utc | 30

I have Chinese students who do not dare to criticize their government in any way.
That’s really fucking cool, aint it, b?

Posted by: slothrop | Oct 4 2014 19:56 utc | 31

@OleImmigrant comment 13
“I have lived here in the US for 45 years now, and I have never seen a population more submissive to oligarchs…. look at OWS, the anger against TRAP, against ObamaCare, against bombing Syria, on and on. What did we do but rollover?”
*
I don’t know in what locale you live but there are pockets of resistance, both regionally and sectorally. Where I live Occupy Oakland took perhaps some of the worst repression, and we still didn’t “roll over”:
http://youtu.be/QngE6kKk8Lg
Even after this (three of us nearly died) it took well over a year of concerted force, dirty tricks and defamation to suppress our Occupy. Of course we are a much more working class and multinational city than many.
And even small actions can have noticeable effect, such as the dozens of protests nationwide last year against the planned bombing of Syria. In San Francisco we “only” had a thousand or more, but it was militant (SF has been called a “traitor city” in the corporate media). I believe the Powers That Be noticed, and in combination with Russia’s diplomacy in solidarity with Syria, their fear of such a domestic movement growing derailed them… at least until now.
No doubt we in the belly of the beast have our work cut out for us, and can use all the help we can get. The US oligarchy doesn’t so much rest on rah-rah patriotism as on cynicism, despair and atomization of the population. As we said in Occupy Oakland, “Occupy is just the beginning…” The networks still exist, the anger still exists; I’m sure the next upsurge will build on the lessons we learned through OWS. And we have no illusions—Homeland Security will be taking things to the next level as well. It’ll be a long struggle, not guerrilla warfare but almost akin to it on a political level, with many shifts back and forth.
Yours for revolutionary defeatism…

Posted by: Vintage Red | Oct 4 2014 20:01 utc | 32

@Chinese american comment 18
“(By the way, another slight impression I’ve been getting these days–only an impression–is that on English language “anti-establishment” websites and blogs, people do seem to be somewhat more trusting of MSM reports when it comes to China, in comparison with discussion about other places…But that may very well be due to my own point of view.)”
*
I don’t believe you’re imagining this—I’ve noticed it too. Although I’ve also noticed something similar with regard to many being more trusting of the corporate media when it comes to Russia as well (particularly when it comes to vilifying Putin as an individual—the propagandists do like to make things personal!).
If it were just China I’d think some aspect of racism or ethnocentrism has something to do with it, if only on the semi-conscious level of the corporate media’s discourse being more “familiar” even among those who think of themselves as “anti-establishment”. To whatever extent this may apply, from detecting something similar in regard to Russia I think it has to do as well with a general suspicion of “big powers” combined with a political blindness to the fact that the US corporate media is the vehicle of the biggest power of all…

Posted by: Vintage Red | Oct 4 2014 20:02 utc | 33

A reminder to American readers of Bernhard’s little splashes on the Internet. He hates America so much, he would never visit America. He delights in the death of Americans, not just soldiers. If you’re an American, b is basically your enemy.
b has no ideology except a scrapbook of libertarian notions about the economy. He has absolutely no devotion to any kind of politics except a relentless hatred of an abstraction he calls “America.” I used to think he was vaguely isolationist, or rather anti-statist, because he generally opposes any sort of intervention into the affairs of whomever. But, when Putin murders a bunch of Chechens, cool.

Posted by: slothrop | Oct 4 2014 20:10 utc | 34

@32
Yes Oakland did stand out during OWS, as did the ‘Don’t Shoot’ pleaders at Ferguson not too long ago. But what was accomplished?
By the way, how come you Californian keep putting Feinstein and Boxer back in that AZ temple term after term? Aren’t they as pro-color revolution as Hillary and Halfbright?

Posted by: OleImmigrant | Oct 4 2014 20:16 utc | 35

@34 Slo
Trust us, man. We are old enough to know who’s making sense and who’s hate-mongering.

Posted by: OleImmigrant | Oct 4 2014 20:24 utc | 36

@OleImmigrant #28:
I am pleased to be able to say that there are more than one person here who can read Chinese. For the non-Chinese speakers, there is Google translate. (Although I must say, from my experience of looking at Chinese posts at the Youtube of that Occupy Central girl video, Google translate is awful when it comes to Chinese.) So please don’t hesitate to include Chinese links.
All we need now are some Japanese. 😉

Posted by: Demian | Oct 4 2014 20:25 utc | 37

slothrop
ok so what, are you in lovewith b perhaps or what with your attention seeking..

Posted by: Anonymous | Oct 4 2014 20:54 utc | 38

@37 Demian
Okay, here it is: http://www.wenweipo.com/2014/10/04/IN1410040066.htm
It says China will be 2014 #1 source of tourists. Tourism trade deficit in excess of US$100 billion is certain.

Posted by: OleImmigrant | Oct 4 2014 20:58 utc | 39

Slobthrob@34
I can’t say it’s good to see you, but I sort of wondered what happened to you. I just figured you’d been upstaged by this new guy Cold Handjob, or maybe worked a different shift. You haven’t gotten any brighter over the years.
I wouldn’t recommend anyone visiting the US. Unless you enjoy having your privacy invaded and your family manhandled by TSA agents. Although we have some decent people here, they seem to be getting fewer and farther in between. And although you attempt to paint him as a right-wing stooge, b strikes me as being more open-minded than your typical junior Nazi. Your use of the “anti-statist” remark is humorous, though. Libertarians used to rule the roost on the web, but they appear to be outnumbered nowadays.

Posted by: Jim T | Oct 4 2014 20:58 utc | 40

31;Well,they probably think their teacher is a cheese eater.
Americans(non Asian?) knowledge of modern China is very very little,as the accomplishments of the PRC are bad for Neocapitalist interests,and our MSM does not reveal much.I will say they don’t infuse their news about it as much tribal vigor and lies as they do with the war of terror against Muslims,as China is not a player (so far)in the Israeli expansion and security project.
So my take on the HK stuff is one of mostly ignorance,but I know Adelson is across the bay?,right?

Posted by: dahoit | Oct 4 2014 20:59 utc | 41

@39
Link modified: http://news.wenweipo.com/2014/10/04/IN1410040066.htm

Posted by: OleImmigrant | Oct 4 2014 21:07 utc | 42

Modified link to Post#26
http://www.economist.com/news/china/21596568-china-has-worlds-biggest-trade-deficitin-services-number-great-import
I’m new here. Hadn’t yet learn how to properly post a link.

Posted by: OleImmigrant | Oct 4 2014 21:25 utc | 43

People generally want to vote and they want to freely criticize their government. I feel as much solidarity with the Hong Kong protesters as I do the people who devote time and energy to Occupy. Otpor was supported in important ways by the CIA. If you’re b, it’s Slobodan Milosevic forever.

Posted by: slothrop | Oct 4 2014 21:31 utc | 44

Aha, so this is how to post links

Posted by: OleImmigrant | Oct 4 2014 21:35 utc | 45

@OleImmigrant #43:
Sorry for being pedantic, but the really proper way to post a link is to use html markup, as is explained in the comment posting area of this blog below “Allowed HTML Tags”. Or you can read Wikipedia, where an example of the html syntax for a link is given, the example being “A Link to Google!”.
Thanks for the Economist link. But I wouldn’t say that traveling to faraway lands is “squandering” your wealth: seeing the world is a worthwhile endeavor. Where I think China isn’t managing its wealth properly is in being the world’s biggest holder of dollar reserves and US Treasury bonds. The US hatching a color revolution inside China might be a good time to do something about that.

Posted by: Demian | Oct 4 2014 21:50 utc | 46

Here are illustrated some basic differences between western and eastern culture.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 4 2014 22:16 utc | 47

@OleImmigrant comment 35
Yes Oakland did stand out during OWS, as did the ‘Don’t Shoot’ pleaders at Ferguson not too long ago. But what was accomplished?
*
The same as was accomplished at any given mountain or river during the Long March—as I wrote, the struggle here is comparable to a guerrilla campaign on some levels. While there will be victories and defeats, the only battle we’ll really have to win decisively is the last one. But the sense of “nothing is accomplished by resistance ” figures strongly in the cynicism that Wall St., Washington and the Military Industrial Complex want to implant in everyone here.
As to Feinstein, Boxer, the Clintons et. al., that’s 1% electoral politics. Occupy Oakland was very strong against having illusions about the two-party dictatorship, and more and more people are coming to share this view of them. As to opening up US electoral politics, as Demian wrote in the previous “(NED Financed) Hong Kong Riots” topic (comment 14):

Peter Lee writes in the post b links to:
Clearly, the PRC’s envisioned terminus (the “ultimate aim”) of the democratic reform line is universal suffrage to vote for candidates put forth by a nominating committee, not universal suffrage in the nomination as well as election process, which is the Occupy Hong Kong movement’s demand.
Americans do not have universal suffrage in the latter sense. Because of the corruption caused by TV commercials in election campaigns being legal, the 0.01% get to nominate political candidates for major positions.

We have a lot of work to do before alternative electoral campaigns can have any more than educational value. But both the US’s deepening economic crisis and crumbling global empire are going to do a lot of this work for us; we just have to keep building movements, networks, organizations… It’s like watching water boil: nothing seems to happen for quite a while, then it’s all over the place. I think the very nature of how Occupy going from Zuccoti park to 1200+ encampments shows the potential.
Thank you, Demian, for pointing out the small print instructions on HTML tags. Being new here also I’ve just spotted them as you posted—we’ll see if I get them right… 🙂

Posted by: Vintage Red | Oct 4 2014 22:16 utc | 48

@46 Demian
Thanks for the cyber lesson 🙂
China’s hoard of US dollar asset is both a strategic holding as well as a “best of all evil” alternative. Strategically US is still China’s largest (and world’s second largest, plus energy trade is still mostly denominated in $) trade partner; a proportionate amount of reserve holding in $ is logical. But the amount has grown to disproportion. So what to do? The west wouldn’t sell them high tech stuff, while other currency assets are in no better shape than the dollar. So about two-third of its reserves are parking here.
However, change is afoot. China is establishing reciprocal currency holdings with many nations, notably BRICS, especially Russia. It is also purchasing real assets around the world when opportunities arise. In time US$ holding would decrease down to the 25% – 30% of its total foreign reserve holdings as called for in proportion to the US share (or control) of total world economy. Yes there is a long way to go, so it would take some time. Meanwhile China is encouraging personal consumptions such as foreign travels and oversea studies. Each year more than a quarter million Chinese students come to US alone! Thus, overall balance of trade is actually much smaller than what you read here in MSM. What the US is doing in HK this time around would affect nothing in this regard. As pointed out by someone here sometime ago (I think it was guest77), HK is not as important to China as, say, 20 years ago. China wouldn’t spike the US along the line of an eye for an eye in this regard. The campaign to de-dollarize global trade, however, will march on even if the US had called off the dogs in HK this time around.

Posted by: OleImmigrant | Oct 4 2014 22:36 utc | 49

@ Demian #46
I think China isn’t managing its wealth properly
Have you been there? China’s highways and airports are some of the best in the world. General Motors sells more cars in China than in the U.S. Beijing has spent hundreds of billions of dollars to build the world’s largest high-speed rail system, 6,800 miles of fast track, a feat accomplished in less than a decade. Construction in China involves building whole new cities, while the US stagnates.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 4 2014 22:45 utc | 50

@48 Vintage Red
In a way I think you and I are not on the same wavelength. In my original post, I was referring to the population in general here in the US being submissive to the wimps of the oligarchs, while you were talking about the specific group who fought gallantly in Okaland. yes, I tip my hat to the Occupy Oaklanders. They had the ‘power that be’ really worried for a while. Too bad there weren’t enough of you. Even the OWS crowd (and those in Honolulu), people there lasted much longer than I thought would. May be this movement would indeed fester and grow over time, until one day the power that be can’t take us all for granted.

Posted by: OleImmigrant | Oct 4 2014 23:06 utc | 51

@ 12
I’m afraid Jimmy Lai didn’t get his money’s worth on this (student) event.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 4 2014 23:08 utc | 52

@52 Don Bacon:
Well, there has been rumors circulating that Lai has been shorting HK stocks…;)
(Just rumors so far, though.)

Posted by: Chinese american | Oct 4 2014 23:13 utc | 53

we are slowly moving to the mysterious snipers scenario
http://www.globalresearch.ca/unknown-snipers-and-western-backed-regime-change/27904

Posted by: brian | Oct 5 2014 0:04 utc | 54

hes back and bad as ever:
‘A reminder to American readers of Bernhard’s little splashes on the Internet. He hates America so much, he would never visit America. He delights in the death of Americans, not just soldiers. If you’re an American, b is basically your enemy.
b has no ideology except a scrapbook of libertarian notions about the economy. He has absolutely no devotion to any kind of politics except a relentless hatred of an abstraction he calls “America.” I used to think he was vaguely isolationist, or rather anti-statist, because he generally opposes any sort of intervention into the affairs of whomever. But, when Putin murders a bunch of Chechens, cool.
Posted by: slothrop | Oct 4, 2014 4:10:11 PM | 34
one guess…he american! im surprised he says he can think…he seems like a record made im Langley.
NITE US murders a bunch of iraqis, afghans yemenese, libyans, vietnamese, cambodiansm, laotians etc etc…and slops isnt worried

Posted by: brian | Oct 5 2014 0:08 utc | 55

just toe remind slops as to why people may not be so fond of america
insiders George Carlin reminded his audiences of US love for war https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgAVpPNusTs …

Posted by: brian | Oct 5 2014 0:14 utc | 56

Responding to juvenile taunts & insults calls into question one’s own maturity.
Ignoring trash encourages increased attention-seeking and hastens the familiar “cure”.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Oct 5 2014 0:46 utc | 57

@OleImmigrant comment 51
Actually I was talking about the US population as a whole, but was both trying to point to the existence of pockets of US society which show more consciousness and resistance, and to be as optimistic as reasonably possible (if we give up on any hope of change here, climate chaos will kill us all if the 1% don’t nuke us first). I believe I first heard of this concept as the “Law of Combined and Uneven Development.” Oakland, Ferguson, anywhere—we have to fan what sparks of life there be in whatever way we can, leveraging popular consciousness through them to break through the corporate media’s electronic curtain. But I think we’re on the same wavelength in hoping for this movement to grow. 🙂
I very much agree with you about the importance of strategic de-dollarization led by the BRICS nations—that will very much be a part of making change possible here in the US. Whereas people here used to get crumbs from Wall Street’s table of global exploitation, we’ve only gotten austerity and jobless recoveries for a generation now. De-dollarization will not only make the military aspect of the US Empire unaffordable, it will also further bring the economic crisis home to roost. Harsh as this will be, this will break through the basis for the 1%’s social peace (for some) at home, and I think the world will finally see the US people rise up.

Posted by: Vintage Red | Oct 5 2014 2:00 utc | 58

Actually, Americans are not too fond of America.
RCP poll averages
Oct 3, 2014
dir of ctry: right dir 29.0, wrong dir 65.1
congr job approval: approve 11.7, disapprove 82.2
Obama job approval: approve 42.2, disapprove 53.4

Posted by: Don Bacon | Oct 5 2014 2:04 utc | 59

Same old same old going here. A note to some of the newcomers who may have an emotional investment in Hongkong – for many of the commenters Hongkong is merely the disaster de jour something to get their vicarious kicks from in between what they believe to be meatier distractions in the Ukraine and Syria/Iraq. Both of those have been rather quiet for the past week or so, it seems likely Nato which has copped a pretty good thrashing in the Ukraine is gonna concentrate on Syria for the next little while but the time is not yet ripe for an all out attack on President Assad.
Nato and the whitefellas (sounds like a cheesy 1960’s cover band) are making a big show of ‘confronting Isis’/destroying vital ME infrastructure while the peeps attention span holds.
Its not that long until the thanksgiving xmas consumerist ruckus kicks off and I’m backing the whitefellas to hold off flagged direct attacks on Assad administration targets until that distraction begins. Before then we can expect many more provocations against Allawites such as the car bombings this week.
These will be used to try and provoke a reaction from Mr Assad in the hope he will be forced by Allawite anger and distress at the butchery of civilians, to lash out at some target the whitefellas can then play up as being inhumane, thereby cementing a notion in the minds of those among the population back home where the whitefellas come from, that Assad and ISIS are as bad as each other so that there will only be modest objection to the ‘boots on the ground’ knocking out of both targets next northern spring.
Remember of course that the world of half knowledge or a little bit of everything that media divvies out to a population flat strap striving to keep their heads above water, is driven by emotion rather than reason. Show a picture of heads being sawn off & omit to mention the beheading could have been prevented by slipping a few dollars, orders of magnitude less than the cost of one bomber sortie, to the gangsters who first kidnapped the whitefella and Bob’s yer uncle or more correctly Mahmood is the enemy.
So if someone in the Assad administration over reacts to a particular outrage that will be linked to a false flag profanation.
But Assad’s mob aren’t in the habit of sawing off heads so I’m betting something along the lines of a YouTube vid of a class of primary kids choking on phosgene gas or sarin. Yep Assad doesn’t gas either but a lot of groundwork has been put into insinuating he does so jumping that logic gap with an emotive video will be easy.
Which brings me back to Hongkong, the issue this thread is devoted to. Why reveal yerselves to be just as fucked up as the whitefellas in charge by cheering on the maiming of Hongkong protesters?
Many of the Hongkong demonstraters have good reasons entirely unconnected to the sort of lame propagandising preferred by gangs of the terminal silly and crazy such as the Honkers branch of NED.
The whitefellas/’westerners’ lurking round here could do more good by staying on course over the big easily definable issues their governments are strategising.
However much amerika spends on cranking up shit in Honkers, it wouldn’t pay the cost of the gas for one of their killing machines circling over the ME right now.
Even worse by crying “colour revolution watch out” at movements that are chiefly genuinely indigenous all you succeed in doing is making yourselves more easily denigrated when a full on colour revolution such as the maidan is being pushed along by your governments.
I realise it is an awful drag to grind away at the same old subjects day after day, but persistence in the face of attractive looking distractions is the most effective tool in the arsenal of anyone who wants to beget change.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Oct 5 2014 2:40 utc | 60

Talk on twitter is this is a yellow revolution

Posted by: mir | Oct 5 2014 2:59 utc | 61

@61- I think Tony Cartalucci speaks for some of us The myriad of growing lies surrounding the US-engineered chaos in Hong Kong’s streets is but one part of a much larger, long-term campaign to contain, co-opt, or collapse China’s political order, and replace it once again with Balkanized colonial proxies.
http://www.“>http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2014/10/hong-kong-strikes-back-west-attempts-to.html”

Posted by: Nana2007 | Oct 5 2014 3:46 utc | 62

I have Chinese students who do not dare to criticize their government in any way.
That’s really fucking cool, aint it, b?
Posted by: slothrop | Oct 4, 2014 3:56:49 PM | 31
If they do not dare they are not in line with their president

The Chinese Communist Party must tolerate “sharp criticism” and the “jarring” words of its opponents, the country’s incoming president has said.

Actually, since Mao’s times the Chinese Communist Party was pretty unique in having internal correction mechanisms. Power struggles were solved – to a large extent – in non violent ways.
It is no accident that China’s political system is still run by the communist party. They are capable of adapting. I went to the reading of a Chinese satirist ages ago – she was able to travel and her books were not in praise of the Communist party, just describing the madness of daily life. She said that it went in waves, phases of openess followed by phases of restrictions followed by phases of openness.
China has a history of student protests reaching back beyond Tien An Men Square, they seem to be able to begin to talk about the Cultural Revolution now. Actually, Chinese people have always been able to protest, something you cannot say about Russia and the Soviet bloc.

Posted by: somebody | Oct 5 2014 4:03 utc | 63

OleImmigrant 15
*The cultivation of subversion against PRC in HK has long been around, since at least the early 1980’s.*
hk is the launch pad of so many destabilisation plots.
the attempt on chinese premier zhou enlai’s life was executed in hk.
*In 1955, the Bandung summit was the scene of a number of U.S. journalists who were actually CIA agents who attempted to disrupt the conference. Using Nationalist Chinese assets, the CIA also attempted to assassinate Chinese Premier Zhou Enlai at the conference. On April 11, 1965, an Air India Lockheed L-749A Constellation, the “Kashmir Princess,” exploded from a bomb placed on board while flying over the South China Sea en route from Bombay and Hong Kong to Jakarta. Scheduled to be on board the aircraft was Zhou Enlai but he changed his travel plans at the last minute. Sixteen passengers and crew, including five Chinese journalists, a Polish journalist, an Austrian journalist, a Hong Kong journalist, and a member of the North Vietnamese delegation to Bandung, were killed when the plane exploded. The bomb on the plane was placed by a Nationalist Chinese agent on the CIA’s payroll. The Nationalist agent, Chow Tse-ming, operated under the cover of the Hong Kong Aircraft Engineering Company and he was ex filtrated from Hong Kong to Taiwan aboard a plane owned by the CIA proprietary company Civil Air Transport, a forerunner to Air America. The bomb was American made and used an MK-7 detonator of U.S. manufacture.
http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Jakarta-Warning-to-prospective-CIA-agents.shtml
http://www.hkmemory.org/haeco/en/story/part-3/?story=35

Posted by: denk | Oct 5 2014 4:10 utc | 64

@Nana2007 #63:
Thanks for the link. I fell for the triad story. That’s what I get for believing what I read in the NY Times. (It didn’t have a photo of the anti-Occupy people, though.)
@somebody #64:
Are you saying that Russians are not able to protest? There was an anti-war protest in Moscow just a couple of weeks ago, although it’s not clear what it was about, since Russia is not involved in any war. In contrast, when 20 people in Odessa recently tried to protest against the junta’s military operations in Donetsk and Lugansk, the protest was immediately broken up by police.

Posted by: Demian | Oct 5 2014 4:26 utc | 65

Here’s a Guardian video: Hong Kong police deny using triads to disrupt protests
The only anti-Occupy person they interview is middle-aged and looks like a shopkeeper. (I know, how would I know what Chinese shopkeepers look like.) The Guardian says, “Thugs punched and kicked pro-democracy protesters on Friday night, drawing blood as they tore down their tents and attempted to force them out.” So why don’t they show that in the video? There are plenty of videos on the net of Ukrainian thugs roughing up non-fascists.
If somebody can find a video of these clashes, that would be nice.

Posted by: Demian | Oct 5 2014 5:23 utc | 66

tam revisited…..
Who is Col. Robert Helvey?
He was an officer of the Defence Intelligence Agency (DIA) of the Pentagon, who had served in Vietnam and, subsequently, as the US Defence Attache in Yangon, Myanmar, (1983 to 85) during which he clandestinely organised the Myanmarese students to work behind Aung San Suu Kyi and in collaboration with Bo Mya’s Karen insurgent group. He was subsequently based in Thailand where he organised the training of the student and Karen supporters of Aung San Suu Kyi. In 1988-89, he also trained in Hong Kong the student leaders from Beijing in mass demonstration techniques which they were to subsequently use in the Tiananmen Square incident of June,1989. He is now believed to be acting as an adviser to the Falun Gong, the religious sect of China, in similar civil disobedience techniques, which the sect is using with increasing effectiveness against the Chinese authorities. He has ostensibly retired from the DIA in 1991
http://www.iefd.org/articles/ned_an_update.php

Posted by: denk | Oct 5 2014 5:39 utc | 67

@denk #68:
But one reads in Counterpunch:

Foreign writers who claim the movement is orchestrated purely by Americans are naive to believe Hong Kongers can simply be co-opted by an external force to demonstrate. This type of thinking is unfortunately symptomatic of a neocolonial conviction that somehow only “Westerners” are capable of thinking for themselves and acting of their own accord.

You are a neocolonealist who is denying Hong Kong students their agency!

Posted by: Demian | Oct 5 2014 6:34 utc | 68

demian 69
read my reply to debs, i’ve no intention of repeating myself.
either u dont understand or u dont agree with it its ok with me.
i rest my case.

Posted by: denk | Oct 5 2014 6:46 utc | 69

@denk #70:
I thought the snark was obvious… I just find the “activists” being in denial about their being used amusing.

Posted by: Demian | Oct 5 2014 6:53 utc | 70

😉 !

Posted by: denk | Oct 5 2014 7:03 utc | 71

How strange! they have the worse police and they don’t get a colour revolution. Is it too close to the US border and interests?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-29493797

Posted by: Mina | Oct 5 2014 9:55 utc | 72

denk, from your link:

It may be recalled that the covert political action set-up consisting of the NED, the IRI, the NDI, the CIPE and the FTUI was set up during the Ronald Reagan Administration on the recommendation of Mr.Bob Casey, who subsequently became the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). The late Casey saw this as a way of the US developing an effective political action capability against unfriendly regimes without circumventing the post-Watergate Congressional curbs on CIA covert actions against foreign political leaders.

In other words, the NED, and the other above mentioned agencies, are part and parcel of the deep state.

Posted by: okie farmer | Oct 5 2014 10:30 utc | 73

@60 Don Bacon
Exactly! Such polling results have been consistent ever since I started paying attention to US politics. Yet the same bundle of scums kept getting re-elected into offices. Oh yea they rationalize by saying voters tend to puke on reps in other districts but view their own favorably. But that does not explain the discrepancy on presidential electioneering, and based on opinion samplings around myself-friends, family, neighbors, bridge partners, etc.-results are similar to national polls about our own scums. So, what gives???
I think Vintage Red and Oakland comrades have another job on hand. They should take a look into voting authenticity and legitimacy :-). You know, finding out what kind of democracy we really have here.

Posted by: OleImmigrant | Oct 5 2014 13:12 utc | 74

@64, Somebody
Nice post! Allow me to supplement yours with a few tidbits I know of.
The first public demonstrations of political ideas and objection in Communisti China was back in the mid-50’s when Mao’s inadvertent call on “Let a Hundred Birds Sing, and Let a Hundred Flower Bloom”. Well, the birds and flowers heeded the call on cue. What followed was one your satirist friend’s ‘other period’.
Then the Culture Revolution of the mid-60’s. Man did they demonstrate!!! It went on for 5 years, until in 1972 Mao himself had to come out and plead for a stop.
In 1976, after Premier Zhou En-Lai passed away, on Ching Ming day more than 200,000 people (mostly factory workers and students) gathered in front of the People’s Hero memorial to pay tribute to Zhou, and called for the reinstatement of Deng Xiao Ping. A blood bath followed that one.
Then in 1985, after the death of Secretary General Hu Yiao Ban, students in Shanghai demonstrated, voicing support for Hu’s campaign against party corruptions, etc. That one simmered down on its own over time. But it was considered the precursor for the 1989 Tiananmen protest. The way Jiang Zeming handled it (he was Shanghai Party Secretary at the time) also paved the way for his subsequent leadership.
We all know about Tiananmen Square protest; no need for me to elaborate.
Of course, there were numerous other local and provincial public protests as you implied, too many to cite and list. But the ones I mentioned are grand in scale and deep in political influences that would put most such events in the US to shame.

Posted by: OleImmigrant | Oct 5 2014 13:54 utc | 75

Adding to my post @77:
The 1989 Tiananmen Square demonstration also marked the first time that foreign anti-Chinese cliques extended their mafia hands into Chinese politics. Prior to Tiananmen, there was the Aquino Yellow Revolution of Manila. The US subversion organs noticed how reports such as those CNN fanned and abetted the turns of events. It gave them ideas, and organized the support base for the Tiananmen event. The support group was based in HK at the time, supplying food, tents, sweet-talks of going to ‘Merka afterwards, etc., etc. They also organized a huge demonstration in Central, with estimates of over 1 million in attendance, promoting ‘democracy’.
Meanwhile, back in the States, congressmen and presidents were re-elected back into office on single digit public ratings.

Posted by: OleImmigrant | Oct 5 2014 14:01 utc | 76

okie farmer 75
why are the leaders of the *occupy central* , martin lee, anson chan, jimmy lai etc consorting with neocons wolfowitz, joe biden etc., these war mongers are the very antithesis to democracy ?
dont they know what fukus did 1965 ?
*The Foreign Office replied: “We certainly do not exclude any unattributable propaganda or psywar [psychological warfare] activities which would contribute to weakening the PKI permanently. We therefore agree with the [above] recommendation… Suitable propaganda themes might be… Chinese interference in particular arms shipments; PKI subverting Indonesia as agents of foreign communists”. [1]
this despicable frame up sent 2m chinese indonesians to a grisly death in one of the worst genocide of the century !
yet even now this clique is still asking for fukus intervention !
wtf, collaboration with a hostile power is high treason in any language, in some countries this is punishable by firing squad !
[1]
http://markcurtis.wordpress.com/2007/02/01/us-and-british-complicity-in-the-1965-slaughters-in-indonesia/

Posted by: denk | Oct 5 2014 14:24 utc | 77

Great posts and discussion by OleImmigrant and guest77! Love coming to moon for this depth of understanding and analysis.

Posted by: fairleft | Oct 5 2014 16:52 utc | 78

@OleImmigrant comment 76

I think Vintage Red and Oakland comrades have another job on hand. They should take a look into voting authenticity and legitimacy :-). You know, finding out what kind of democracy we really have here.

So many jobs, so little time… 😉

Posted by: Vintage Red | Oct 5 2014 17:07 utc | 79

@67 Demian
At least for a picture, look no further than the good old BBC. As of right now, their front page is leading with a story entitled Hong Kong protesters regroup at main protest sites. On the BBC front page, the story comes with this picture (which it’s used inside the article itself, curiously enough.)
The captions say “Hong Kong protesters regroup”, and “Demonstrators in Hong Kong appear to be withdrawing from some protest sites and regrouping at the main site outside government buildings”. But see that banner with three rows of Chinese writing in the middle of the photo? From top to bottom, they read:
-“slaves to foreigners, cannon fodder”
-“you don’t know your own good fortune”
-“pitiful and sad”
In other words, these are anti-Occupy Central protesters. But the BBC, at least on its front page, is pretending that none of its readers can read Chinese.

Posted by: Chinese american | Oct 5 2014 19:56 utc | 80

Demian wrote (comment 66, @somebody comment 64):

Are you saying that Russians are not able to protest? There was an anti-war protest in Moscow just a couple of weeks ago, although it’s not clear what it was about, since Russia is not involved in any war.

On the same weekend as this “anti-war” protest (carrying pro-NATO and pro-Right Sector flags?), several times as many people came out to see the cruiser Aurora go up the Neva on its way to scheduled maintenance and repair, both on the waterfront and in small craft alongside (articles have beautiful photos):
http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.en/tvzvezda.ru/news/vstrane_i_mire/content/201409212212-p95g.htm
http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.en/vesti-kpss.livejournal.com/5875546.html
For those who may be unfamiliar, shots from the Aurora signaled the start of the storming of the Winter Palace and the beginning of the October Revolution. During WW2 the guns of the Aurora helped defend against the Nazis during the Siege of Leningrad. Today the cruiser serves as a museum ship devoted to these events.
One guess as to which gathering made it into the corporate media’s “All the News that Fits”…

Posted by: Vintage Red | Oct 5 2014 21:34 utc | 81

I don’t see what any personal sympathies with the protestors even matters. Sure, we all want people to be able to fight for their rights and have the government they want, but right now there is a larger priority, and that is making sure that the world maintains a multipolar political structure. The importance of a multipolar world outweighs even our desire to see vocal minorities to take to the streets, I think. (And these are vocal minorites, no doubt).
I think, as “westerners” we have to support the group that will insure the independence of the state in question. We cannot support any group that looks to the US as a model or a hope, because we here know better than anyone that this is a sham. And any group that panders to the US and it’s citizens via social media has to immediately be suspect.
Sloppy always comes to crow about how much b hates America. I don’t think b “hates” the USA, but he is certainly right to make the USAs aggressive moves toward hegemony the key focus of all of his posts, and right to make a stand against this issue over all others because it is truly the gravest threat the world faces today.
– if the emergence of liberal freedom in every corner of the world means it’s sure evaporation from all parts very soon after (which will surely occur if the USA achieves total global domination) we cannot support this. We will only see real opportunities for peace, political expression, and true democracy only after the US is prevented from perverting these good things into instruments of its domination. But until then, the independence of foreign governments is far more important for world peace, stability, and prosperity than the rights of a few minorities to threaten their governments in Russia, China, or Iran.

Posted by: Guest77 | Oct 5 2014 22:52 utc | 82

^^^^^
Or, as an old housemate of mine once put it, “It’s very hard to go wrong if you just oppose whatever the US State Dept. supports.”

Posted by: Vintage Red | Oct 5 2014 23:10 utc | 83

@84 And of course for inside “the west” the exact opposite holds true. We should support any protests, any movement that attempts to degrade the aggressive capabilities of the US Empire, because this will allow real democracy and prosperity to flourish in more places around the world.
No one can claim that countries like Russia, China, Brazil, India and Iran – where standards of living are rising and the governments have the broad support of the people – are “dictatorships”. Just like no one of any honesty should call the banker dominated oligarchy like the United States, where cash determines every election down to the lowest rungs on the political ladder – a “democracy”.

Posted by: guest77 | Oct 5 2014 23:23 utc | 84

@mina on Mexico: ” they have the worse police and they don’t get a colour revolution.”
They had a color revolution. That’s how they got the worst police! 😉

Posted by: guest77 | Oct 5 2014 23:47 utc | 85

US behavior following the collapse of the Soviet Union should be a lesson for everyone as to what the world faces should an independent China and Russia be eliminated.
There will be no peace dividend. There will be no (real or lasting) rise in living standards. There will only be more Empire. More inequality. More wars.

Posted by: guest77 | Oct 5 2014 23:50 utc | 86

http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Wikileaks-HK-Protests-Linked-to-US-Government–20141002-0011.html
Wikileaks: HK Protests Linked to US Government
Previous cables show links between United States agencies and the Hong Kong protest movement, as Beijing warns that the protests are China’s “internal affairs.”
The United States funded groups linked to the ongoing Occupy Central protests in Hong Kong, according to whistleblowing website Wikileaks.
The website tweeted that key figures behind the demonstrations are linked to the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), a U.S. foundation “dedicated to the growth and strengthening of democratic institutions around the world,” according to its website, but which has been linked with coup attempts and “regime change” plans in Venezuela and elsewhere.

Posted by: guest77 | Oct 6 2014 1:45 utc | 87

@Chinese american #82:
Thanks for explaining that. The BBC just gets worse and worse. (Whenever RT comes up, Anglos always call it “the government owned RT”, but the BBC is worse, and its government-run, too. A slogan RT had for a time was “The best propaganda is the truth.”)
@Guest77 #84:
Very well said. It’s sad how many supposedly on the Left don’t understand this. As I noted before, NLR published a fawning interview with a pro-Maidan “sociologist”. The interviewer actually asks this: “What do you think Russia’s motivations were for seizing the peninsula? That’s more Russophobic language than the usual “annexed” used by Western media. Even the English Left is Russophobic.
Here’s an excellent piece on the true nature of Euromaidan (Yandex trans.).

Posted by: Demian | Oct 6 2014 3:34 utc | 88

after another fukus instigated attack on ethnic chinese in 1998 [1]
i left this msg to martin lee on the newsgroup soc.culture.china…
*not that it isnt obvious already, but after this atrocity any chinese who still looks to washington, london as the guardian of human rights, especially the chinese human rights, ought to seek professional councilling immediately*
even if the ccp is reluctant to punish the martin lee clique for treason [2] fearing a major backlash from fukus controlled *world opinion*, it should pack this bunch to here [3] pronto to protect the hk population from further contamination.
martin lee’s clique is surely in dire need of professional therapy, if not a firing squad.
[1]
http://www.etan.org/estafeta/98/summer/6stateme.htm
p.s.
there’r many grisly details that i’d rather not post here.
[2]
openly collaborating with a hostile power
*martin lee and anson chan are openly asking for intervention from fukus now.
[[3]
http://www3.ha.org.hk/cph/en/aboutus/

Posted by: denk | Oct 6 2014 4:08 utc | 89

Nina Byzantina ‏@NinaByzantina 31m31 minutes ago
#Latvia’s Einārs Graudiņš visits, then blames pro-Kiev forces for #Donetsk mass graves http://www.rg.ru/2014/09/30/donbass-site.html …—is now criticized in EU press.

Posted by: brian | Oct 6 2014 4:45 utc | 90

@brian #92:
That report has been discredited. The rebels say they found only nine bodies in common graves, and the OECD says that this Latvian has nothing to do with it.

Posted by: Demian | Oct 6 2014 5:11 utc | 91

Sorry, OSCE, not OECD.

Posted by: Demian | Oct 6 2014 5:33 utc | 92

Louis, who pops up here every now and again to let of some bile, is at it again
http://louisproyect.org/2014/10/02/the-hong-kong-protests-and-the-conspiracist-left/
supporting another US backed colour revolution…its as if he were following belatedly those other and former communists, the neocons, on his journey to redemption!
here is a different Louis years before
http://www.swans.com/library/art9/lproy04.html May 26, 2003
writing on Diana Johnstnes Fools Crusade, about one of the first color revolutions
so what happened to louis in the intervening years?

Posted by: brian | Oct 6 2014 6:55 utc | 93

on the BBC:
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics_business_media_watch_society/2014/10/06/08-27-51am/brain_drain_russia_bbc_gets_it_wrong

Posted by: brian | Oct 6 2014 6:56 utc | 94

‘How did you “fall” for the Triad story? The Hong Kong police say the anti-occupy crowd was made up of Triad’s. Unless they’re just pawns now too?
Posted by: Read Marx you dumbshits | Oct 5, 2014 6:13:56 AM | 74
link please mr dumb(p)shits did HK police say that?

Posted by: brian | Oct 6 2014 7:00 utc | 95

triads and HK antioccupy?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/hong-kong-strikes-back-west-attempts-to-spin-growing-anti-occupy-movement/5406320
now why would the western press claim triads are part of the antioccupy crowd?

Posted by: brian | Oct 6 2014 7:03 utc | 96

Posted by: Demian | Oct 5, 2014 2:34:12 AM | 69
people may remember the daraa demonstrations in Syria….people seeking political reform…they were genuine BUT that became the flash point for a coup d’etat.
and yes genuine demonstrators can be pawns for shadowy forces using them as a wedge to drive their way into a state .
we will know for sure when and if the next stage is initiated: the mysterious snipers

Posted by: brian | Oct 6 2014 7:08 utc | 97

@brian #95:
Gee, you seem to follow Proyect pretty closely. I have no such inclination.
As I said before, all one needs to do is watch the Maidan girl video and then the Occupy central video, both of which you directed us to, to see that what is going on in Hong Kong is just another attempted color revolution.
Another link, obtained from the link guest77 gave at #89:
US State Dept Funding and Occupy Central, the Ties that Bind
This is the most through demonstration of how Occupy Central is just the US State Department being up to its usual tricks that I have seen so far. The post the Saker put up today, in which a Hong Konger explains why he does not support Occupy Central, is also worth reading.

Posted by: Demian | Oct 6 2014 7:14 utc | 98

triad presence? real or phony?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/oct/04/hong-kong-police-deny-triads-protests-video
used by police? or captured by police? brought in to cause chaos OR there because they have businesses there?
one thing for sure the its like invoking the thuggees in india!
my view? the triads story is a straw man used to demonise those opposed to the occupy rallies.Standard media operating procedure

Posted by: brian | Oct 6 2014 7:21 utc | 99

Hm, I thought a comment of mine went through, but it got blocked. Try again.
@brian #95:
You seem to follow Project pretty closely. I have no inclination to do so.
From the link at guest77’s post at #89, there is what I have so far found to be the best account showing that Occupy Central is just the US State Department being up to its usual tricks:
US State Dept Funding and Occupy Central, the Ties that Bind
Also worth reading is “Dear Children of Hong Kong” over at the Saker (which I’m not giving the link to so as to keep this comment from getting blocked).
@ #100:
We have seen neither videos nor photos of Occupy being brutally attacked by thugs, nor of any triads for that matter. If I don’t see at least a photo, I don’t believe anything the Western press says about a country in the Empire’s cross hairs anymore. As Chinese american noted, the only photo we’ve seen represents exactly the opposite of what the BBC says it does.

Posted by: Demian | Oct 6 2014 8:15 utc | 100

Back to Main