Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 2, 2014
Ukraine: War, For Now, Over And NATO Still In Decline

There is only little news of new developments out of east-Ukraine. The insurgents kicked the Ukrainian troops out of the airport in Lughansk and the Ukrainian troops at the Donetsk airport are said to be confined in a basement and will have to negotiate their surrender.

According to Spiegel NATO generals assess (in German) that Ukraine has lost the war. It is out of material in decent shape and out of enough soldiers with the moral to successfully fight for the oligarchs. But that does not mean the fighting is over. Obama may still decide to double down and that destroying Ukraine -like Afghanistan, Libya and Syria- by prolonging the conflict is in U.S. "interests".

The "western" financed Kyiv Post is lamenting that the Ukrainian president Porochenko did not keep the promises he made before he got elected. That snub may well be a sign that his time is already over. The current Ukrainian campaign of claiming that Russia has "invaded" Ukraine is making his position weaker. Apparently all those T-90 tanks only fly in by night and their cloaking devices prevent any picture of them appearing anywhere.

Putin said somewhere that if Russia would really invade Ukraine it would take 14 days to get Kiev. "Western" media claimed that was a "threat". It was rather a somewhat pessimistic statement of fact. Kiev would probably fall in four days though preparing the victory parade may indeed take a bit longer.

The United Nation has found that 1 million Ukrainians have fled from their homes, more than 800,000 of them to Russia. The Ukrainian "Anti-Terrorist-Operation" is apparently a campaign of ethnic cleansing. But as that campaign for now comes to an end the population movement may well reverse.

There will hopefully now be some negotiated solution which will likely end in a federalized Ukraine with great autonomy for the federal states. Ukraine as a nation, if that has ever existed at all, is over. Ukraine as a confederation of states is still a possibility.

The sad reality is that such a development was foreseeable and indeed in detail foreseen. The whole war was completely unnecessary.

NATO will get some temporary propaganda push out of the conflict but I do not expect any longterm change in its downward trajectory. Defense budgets will not increase and the newly announced rapid reaction force for east Europe is at least the third version of such an multinational emergency force concept. These never can work as their activation still depends on the the lengthy political process NATO needs to go to war. Such forces also depend on rotating "pledged" units by member states and, as experience has shown, many such units get "pledged" even when they are not available or incapable to fight.

After this conflict the loss of credibility of NATO will likely be greater than its leaders today anticipate. Showing off satellite pictures even a naive can recognize as irrelevant and propagandizing an "invasion" when obviously none happened will leave marks. Top that with the catastrophic results in Libya and the strategic loss in Afghanistan and there is little left of NATO that future taxpayers might want to support.

Comments

A ceasefire between Putin and Poroshenko is a positive development, but like Demian sais,I would not attempt to hang a hat on it without confirmation of the ceasefire from the boots on the ground of both sides. The pro Russian rebels should not be lulled into relaxed position by any means, it is now that they should be most vigilant. Western agents provocatuer can make a ceasefire dissolve very easily, and we all know the west speaks with forked a tongue. The west violated the agreement to not expand nato towards Russia and we have seen how they held up their side of the agreement.
Again I think the Novorossians need to be more leery and security vigilant than ever. The west has big egos and never cease plotting to gain an advantage. But a Putin-Poroshenko ceasefire is a step in the right direction.

Posted by: really | Sep 3 2014 9:18 utc | 101

I don’t know how Poroshenko can survive this – he can not hang the responsibilty on his minister of defense only.
Report from German camera team on a volunteer batallion sent to Illovaisk – not knowing that they were meant to fight on the front and that the area was encircled.
Camera team escaped by pure luck.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 3 2014 9:30 utc | 102

Ceasefire – Kiev capitulates: Putin and Poroshenko agree to ‘permanent ceasefire’ in Ukraine

Kiev (AFP) – Russian President Vladimir Putin and his Ukrainian counterpart Petro Poroshenko have agreed to a “permanent ceasefire” in fighting engulfing the east of the ex-Soviet state, the Ukrainian leader’s office said on Wednesday.
Putin and Poroshenko held a telephone exchange “that resulted in an agreement for a permanent ceasefire in Donbass (eastern Ukraine),” the Ukrainian president’s office said in a statement.

The Russian government does NOT confirm this. It says Poroshenko has to negotiate with the insurgents as Russia is not part of the conflict 🙂
From Poroshenko’s website: President of Ukraine discussed regime of complete ceasefire with President of Russia

President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko had a phone conversation with President of Russia Vladimir Putin.
The conversation resulted in an agreement on ceasefire in the Donbas. The parties reached mutual understanding on the steps that will facilitate the establishment of peace.

Big question now: Will the nazis now march on Kiev to lynch Poroshenko?

Posted by: b | Sep 3 2014 9:36 utc | 103

Funny – just minutes after I copied the above from Poroshenko’s site it was modified:
President of Ukraine discussed regime of complete ceasefire with President of Russia

President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko had a phone conversation with President of Russia Vladimir Putin.
The conversation resulted in an agreement on ceasefire regime in the Donbas. The parties reached mutual understanding on the steps that will facilitate the establishment of peace.

No idea what that “regime” means …

Posted by: b | Sep 3 2014 9:41 utc | 104

Posted by: b | Sep 3, 2014 5:36:28 AM | 96
You don’t have to be Nazi to get rid of your leadership for something like this.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 3 2014 9:43 utc | 105

62
Putin is like the bully next door, you feel sorry for his wife and kids.
Poroshenko is like Stage 5 melanoma. You feel sorry for yourself, knowing how theyll carve you up, and for your own wife and kids, because Kerry-Kohn pledged the full faith and credit of US government to backstop the $30B in IMF loans that you know thr Kiev oligarchs will simply loot.
Youll die with the window open, muffled thuds from the neighbor, and quiet sobbing from your soon homeless widow.

Posted by: Chip Nihk | Sep 3 2014 9:45 utc | 106

As b said, poroshenko have to talk to the people in east ukraine, he refuse that, there wont be any stop of the shooting.

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 3 2014 9:47 utc | 107

Demian, looks like you are right:
Peskov: Putin, Poroshenko Discussed Steps Towards Ceasefire During Phone Conversation | Russia | RIA Novosti

ULAN BATOR (Mongolia), September 3 (RIA Novosti) – Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Wednesday that Russian President Vladimir Putin and Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko did not agree on a ceasefire in eastern Ukraine during their telephone conversation because Russia is not a party in the conflict, but they did discuss ways of solving the conflict.

“Putin and Poroshenko did in fact discuss steps that would provide for a ceasefire between the militia and the Ukrainian armed forces. Russia cannot physically agree on a ceasefire because it isn’t a party in the conflict,” Peskov said.

Posted by: Fran | Sep 3 2014 9:56 utc | 108

Open-thread:
Second revolution unfolding in Yemen. People didn’t like to be cheated by the west who imposed the former vice-president as sole candidate in the presidential election 2 years ago?
http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/yemeni-rebels-and-activists-reject-presidential-overture
http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/yemen-houthis-tighten-their-control-over-sanaa

Posted by: Mina | Sep 3 2014 9:57 utc | 109

@101
“…In turn, a militia representative from the Donetsk People’s Republic (DPR claimed to be unaware of any ceasefire agreement and stated that independence supporters would not stop fighting until Kiev-controlled forces left the Donbas Region…”
http://en.ria.ru/world/20140903/192587151/Kiev-Poroshenko-Announces-Ceasefire-in-East-Ukraine-After.html
USG/NATO/EU/Kiev axis are trying to get a breather because the kiev forces were getting trashed by the rebel forces. Even some in the msm is reporting that.
If Poroshenko is only trying to buy time, the Russians again capitalized on Poroshenko’s tactic, by saying they are not a party in the conflict and thus can not agree to a ceasefire, but will support Poroshenko’s ceasefire if genuine. Now let’s see if those kiev troops begin to withdrawl. Hopefully they do for the civilians sake.

Posted by: really | Sep 3 2014 10:28 utc | 110

@Chip Nihk #99:

Putin is like the bully next door, you feel sorry for his wife and kids.

I don’t usually read your posts, because I couldn’t make any sense of your posts which I did read. But I can make sense of this post, and I see from it that you are a Russophobe.
To quote from John Mearsheimer’s recent article on the Ukraine civil war

Putin’s actions should be easy to comprehend. A huge expanse of flat land that Napoleonic France, imperial Germany, and Nazi Germany all crossed to strike at Russia itself, Ukraine serves as a buffer state of enormous strategic importance to Russia. No Russian leader would tolerate a military alliance that was Moscow’s mortal enemy until recently moving into Ukraine. Nor would any Russian leader stand idly by while the West helped install a government there that was determined to integrate Ukraine into the West.
Washington may not like Moscow’s position, but it should understand the logic behind it. This is Geopolitics 101: great powers are always sensitive to potential threats near their home territory. …
One also hears the claim that Ukraine has the right to determine whom it wants to ally with and the Russians have no right to prevent Kiev from joining the West. This is a dangerous way for Ukraine to think about its foreign policy choices. The sad truth is that might often makes right when great-power politics are at play. Abstract rights such as self-determination are largely meaningless when powerful states get into brawls with weaker states.

When you say that Putin is a bully, what you really mean is that Russia is a bully. But Russia is not a bully: it is just a great power.

Posted by: Demian | Sep 3 2014 10:31 utc | 111

@Demian | 92

Yes, Russia is going to make every effort to get a ceasefire as quickly as possible. But Putin cannot speak for Novorossia or its army.

Russia doesnt really want ceasefire at the moment, its just PR. Why? Because Novorossia is winning and Russia wants land route to Crimea, they want Novorossia to take as much territory as possible before real negotiation starts, this includes taking Odessa and unblocking Transnistria (which would be royally screwed otherwise).
From Ukraine perspective, it would be smart to freeze the war, negotiate Novorossia’s autonomy (as limited as possible), to rebuild the army, while consolidating the grip on other pro-Russian regions. Question if Washington and nazis would allow that, as well as if Novorossia would want it, but it would be the smartest move Poroshenko could make.

Posted by: Harry | Sep 3 2014 10:32 utc | 112

Iraq Has WMDs and Russia Has Invaded
“How do they imagine they’ll get away with it? Well, let’s see. Not a single individual responsible for the lies that launched the destruction of Iraq and the death of some million people and the predictable and predicted chaos now tormenting Iraq’s whole region has been held accountable in any way.
The lie that Gadaffi was about to slaughter innocents, the lie that facilitated the attack on Libya and the hell that has now been established there — No one has been held accountable for that lie in any way whatsoever.
The lie that the White House had proof that Assad had used chemical weapons — No one has been held accountable. No one has even had to recant as they switch targets and propose bombing Assad’s enemies.
The lie that the United States had proof Russia had shot down an airplane over Ukraine — No one has been held accountable, and the United States is opposing an independent investigation.
Why do they think they can get away with it?
Because you let them.
Because you don’t want to believe they commit such atrocities.
Because you don’t want to believe they tell big lies.

You know, some people feel like idiots for having believed the Iraq lies. Imagine how they’re going to feel when they find out they believed a nation had been invaded when it hadn’t.”

Posted by: Medium:Blue | Sep 3 2014 10:38 utc | 113

@ shargash #170 : The following is a quote from me on this board on 13 April 2014 (comment #133 at Ref):

Today [13 April 2014]… Ukrainian presidential candidate Yulia Timoshenko said: “The regional authorities should be appointed not from Kiev, but by the regions themselves. All this taken together will be regarded in the east as the regional freedom that people there want…. It is necessary to urgently adopt the budget code that will give the regions a considerable financial independence.”
Two days ago the interim prime minister Yatsenyuk said the very same thing. The leading politicians of the east and south regions have been saying the same (see for example what presidential candidate Tigipko/Tihipko said today). And Russia says the same.
Now, what remains is to get a statement of a similar spirit from presidential candidate Poroshenko. He’s going to win the election in all likelihood. If he comes out in favour of devolution, decentralization, federalization, then the issue is resolved except for implementation details.

In reply to the above comment, commenter ‘somebody’ said on 13 Apr 2014 at comment #135: “Poroshenko will not find it difficult to do whatever is necessary.” And in fact a week or so later Poroshenko was saying the same thing, and saying it even stronger (see e.g. Poroshenko on 25 April).
Today, 3 Sep 2014, Putin and Poroshenko had a telephone conversation after which Putin’s spokesman said “both presidents’ views on possible ways to exit this difficult crisis situation, for the most part, coincide.” Both presidents have been having for the most part the same views about solutions since April, i.e. they both support decentralization. (Poroshenko’s rubbish and falsehoods that the Russian government has been giving military assistance to the rebels in another matter, of course). The rebels have been having a different view.
This is why I say it is an unnecessary war, and the rebels started it, and the rebels are continuing it. The rebels aren’t going to climb down in the current atmosphere where they’re winning military victories, but I can’t imagine Poroshenko is going to climb down from his “they’re terrorists” stance either. Today’s statement that the Kremlin’s views about solutions largely coincide with Kiev’s views is not new news. And isn’t a sign that Poroshenko is going to climb down.

Posted by: Parviziyi | Sep 3 2014 11:59 utc | 114

@100 I don’t think people of East Ukraine are sending hundreds of Russian paratroopers to die in Donbas, transporting their bodies back to Russia and then burying secretly.

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 3 2014 12:06 utc | 115

US troops are going to the Ukraine ????
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-02/us-troops-are-heading-ukraine

Posted by: Willy2 | Sep 3 2014 12:09 utc | 116

Posted by: Willy2 | Sep 3, 2014 8:09:56 AM | 108
Yatseniuk proposes a “wall project” for the border to Russia. Will really endeer him to Germans. Does not explain how he wants to do that on the Donetsk border.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 3 2014 12:26 utc | 117

It is official now Putin calls on Kiev and militia to stop hostilities in E. Ukraine

Posted by: somebody | Sep 3 2014 12:34 utc | 118

Why would the rebels stop when they are about to win?

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 3 2014 12:43 utc | 119

@111 Because it’s not rebels who is fighting this war against Ukraine?

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 3 2014 13:01 utc | 120

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 3, 2014 8:43:24 AM | 111
Danger of being overstretched? No support from Russia to continue?
Remember, Russia is the largest country of the world. They do not need more territory.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 3 2014 13:03 utc | 121

@100 It’s definitely not people from Eastern Ukraine who send hundreds of Russian paratroopers to die in Ukraine.

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 3 2014 13:05 utc | 122

Ukraine Today Trolls & Ukraine Announces then Retracts Ceasefire Announcement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIrBY5C3WNc&list=PLfrlsC1yJ2dTGUZRAZQWlN_gakeR6MO7q

Posted by: Tom Murphy | Sep 3 2014 13:14 utc | 123

Posted by: somebody | Sep 3, 2014 9:03:26 AM | 113
add: contrary to what NATO pretends Russia is not an expansionary power – it does not make sense for them. This here is the COMECON, Warsaw Pact experience of the Soviet Union.

COMECON’s impact on Russia was largely economic. Russia was the largest republic among the Soviet Union’s fifteen republics. The Soviet Union was the dominant member of COMECON. The strategic purpose of COMECON was to tie Eastern Europe economically to the Soviet Union. COMECON trade became largely bilateral with the Soviet Union, mostly Russia, supplying raw materials, notably tably oil, to Eastern Europe in return for manufactured goods, notably machinery and equipment. This is the opposite of the trade flow between historically dominant countries and their colonies and dependents. The historical norm is for raw materials to flow from the colonies and dependents to the dominant center, which exports advanced manufactures and services in return. The comparative advantage for Russia within COMECON was, however, as a raw material and fuel exporter. Russia’s loss was that it received in return shoddy and obsolescent COMECON machinery and equipment rather than Western machinery with Western technology embedded in it. The Comprehensive Program for Scientific and Technical Progress to the Year 2000 was only one effort to remedy this problem. Russia also lost out on its potential gains from OPEC’s increase in the price of oil beginning in 1973.

They are in Ukraine for their security – only.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 3 2014 13:23 utc | 124

Everything that Obama is talking about in Estonia is laid out in the Russian Agression Prevention Act of 2014. He might as well been reading directly from the proposed belligerant legislation. Talk about doubling down…talk about USG aggression and freaking insanity.

Posted by: really | Sep 3 2014 13:28 utc | 125

So, the destruction of Ukraine sovereignty by Putin is cause for “optimism”? Hooray for Russian irredentism!
A Hamburger who champions Russian empire. Pretty fucking weird.
Posted by: slothrop | Sep 2, 2014 2:04:29 PM | 14

Bye Bye Deutschland

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Sep 3 2014 13:38 utc | 126

somebody
That didnt really respond to my question, so anyone else are free to reply, why would rebels stop when they are near to win?

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 3 2014 13:44 utc | 127

Does anybody KNOW what the physical starting point might be for the LPR and DPR if “peace” talks were to somehow begin? At their old political boundaries? Or have new lines been drawn since the fighting began? I don’t recall seeing it mentioned anywhere except in the vaguest terms.

Posted by: Christopher | Sep 3 2014 13:45 utc | 128

@111 Putin probably doesn’t want the rebels to get ideas about advancing beyond their borders. The Kiev invaders would morph into freedom fighters, and the Ukes have lost. Except for a few holdouts, a general ceasefire call could save the lives of conscripts.
Remember survivors returning home with horrible tales of lousy leadership and being rescued by the great Satan, Putin, would be a disaster for Porschenko and friends.

Posted by: NotTimothyGeithner | Sep 3 2014 13:50 utc | 129

NYT: “Kiev retracts statement of having reached a seize-fire with the rebels”
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/04/world/europe/ukraine-russia.html

Posted by: Willy2 | Sep 3 2014 13:55 utc | 130

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 3, 2014 9:44:11 AM | 119
Did it cross your mind that they might have won already.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 3 2014 13:59 utc | 131

@119
Win what? What is victory if not federalisation, which I expect they will now achieve. How will Kiev govern Donbass if they have lost control, and effectively surrendered the right to retake control via the agreement between Putin and Porochenko that the Ukrainian army must now retreat.
Nobody intended to march on Kiev and lynch Yatsenyuk, despite its appeal.

Posted by: Pat Bateman | Sep 3 2014 14:02 utc | 132

somebody
No they havent won already, what would they have won? They just said recently that they want to be part of ukraine? No goals have been achived.

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 3 2014 14:07 utc | 133

There is no ‘win’ for Novorossia until the Nazis are dealt with. Poroshenko may be happy for the war to cease if only to allow the oligarchs to start looting reconstruction funds. However, the hardcore Nazis feel they are entitled to their lebensraum. If they survive, they will be used by the US to provoke whatever Russian state/zone arises in the south-east, if only to stir up trouble on Russia’s border.

Posted by: Yonatan | Sep 3 2014 14:12 utc | 134

Posted by: Yonatan | Sep 3, 2014 10:12:39 AM | 126
I think part of the “federalization” is federalized security.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 3 2014 14:30 utc | 135

Wasn’t Putin told he needs to deeskalate or new sanctions. Now Putin works do deeskalate, presents a peace plan, seems to mediate between both parties…… and guess what MORE SANCTIONS!
Il’s sont fou les Western, I mean, les romains.
European Commission Gives Green Light to More Sanctions Against Russia | Russia | RIA Novosti

BRUSSELS, September 3 (RIA Novosti) – The European Commission approved Wednesday a proposal to significantly expand sanctions against Russia, but the final decision is yet to be made by the European Union members.

There have been a few voices in the EU against new sanctions, I hope the fight against them.

Posted by: Fran | Sep 3 2014 14:55 utc | 136

Posted by: Fran | Sep 3, 2014 10:55:22 AM | 128
The sanctions I noted were largely symbolic. Ukraine will need gas in winter and reverse flow won’t solve the problem.
How Kyiv ignited the civil war in Ukraine … football ultras … London Review of Books

Posted by: somebody | Sep 3 2014 15:17 utc | 137

Every pic I see of poroshenko he looks like he have been crying.
http://cdn.rt.com/files/news/2d/18/c0/00/ceasefire-ukraine-putin.si.jpg
Will we see him doing this soon?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDFVQ-H7V-U

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 3 2014 15:24 utc | 138

@107 Parviziyi
I still don’t get how to came to believe the civil war is the resistance’s fault. The armed resistance was clearly a response to the ATO. On 13 April, the people of the Donbass were holding marches and occupying buildings, when there were declared “terrorists” and the army sent to crush them.
You quote candidates Timoshenko and Poroshenko saying vague things about decentralization when they were trying to appeal to voters. However, Timoshenko said other things as well, things about nukes and genocide. As for Poroshenko, I remember some hopes that he might try to defuse the crisis when he took over. But he didn’t. I don’t think he could, because I don’t think the president of the Ukraine is running the show in Kiev (the US is, for those who don’t get the reference). In any case, by the time Poroshenko was elected, the civil war was in full swing.
Actions count, not words, and the government in Kiev acted with astonishing brutality towards its own people as soon as the local police refused to put down the demonstrations in the east.

Posted by: shargash | Sep 3 2014 15:47 utc | 139

Yes, credibility is lost … and fortunately it is more important today than it was in say 1940.
After the fall of Paris and Warsaw the war mongers in London and New York had their biggest loss of credibility so far – and they still marched on.
And won.
(sorry for sounding revisionist but a) I am b) it helps to clear the fog which the empire’s faithful archivars have spread.
my favorite books:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions
http://guidopreparata.com/chpg/2CH-E-Con.pdf
http://tarpley.net/online-books/george-bush-the-unauthorized-biography/)

Posted by: Heinz | Sep 3 2014 16:00 utc | 140

No Mistral to Russia just reported by RT
Pathetic french!

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 3 2014 16:07 utc | 141

I’d like to be optimistic as well, that some negotiations take place, etc.
Fighting is still going on the ground. The Putin-Poro conversation was interpreted as ‘cease fire’ then it was not quite that, and so on.
The separatists have cards in their hands now. Not just their ‘victories’ in terms of territory held, or their losses compared to Ukr. losses, etc., but in influencing opinion.
They have been doing very genuine sounding PR, along the lines of:
We are all brothers, why should brothers fight?
and:
We supported the original aims / values of the Maidan, just a ‘you’ did, so what is up?
Their aims *may be* more ambitious than generally supposed, a march on Kiev is publically mentioned.
The separatists thus sway between a ‘we are all one ppl’ discourse and ‘we in the East are different and want independence’ talking point(s).
Just some exs. Eng or eng subs:
http://tinyurl.com/pdyfptu interview from slavyagrand
Zakharchenko talking to captured Ukrs. soldiers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qJU0pL-WoE&feature=youtu.be
The train of federalization has left the station, if it ever was a realistic option.
Federalization is always based on some ‘obligatory’ – maybe painfully agreed on, which may vary, common policies and organisation – national Defense, Fed. Police, energy, transport on the territory, the Post Office – that kind of thing – but also, always, on some form of economic solidarity, with the richer contributing to the poorer, see for ex. CH, the USA, or under a different structutural mantle, Germany (Lander) or Spain.
Without that economic solidarity, carefully controlled, monitored, agreed upon by all parties, the Federation – or Nation State cut into ‘states’ – ‘oblasts’ – ‘regions’ – ‘provinces’ with a high degree of independence – makes no sense.
The separatists, as far as I can see, refuse this categorically. They will not pay taxes to a ‘potential’ Kiev-run Federation, they will not pay oligarchs, they insist on economic independence, punkt schluss.
It is very unlikely that a cover-up policy of ‘autonomous region(s)’ can serve as a sort of gloss or cover-up for ‘almost’ real independence. Imho they won’t accept that.
at guest 77, Google is the pits, say that 100x. Amazing. Ppl don’t realise.

Posted by: Noirette | Sep 3 2014 16:50 utc | 142

Ukrainians don’t seem to like Merkel any more
Germany fails to keep Merkel’s commitment to treat Ukraine’s most critically wounded soldiers
Story sounds strange.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 3 2014 17:14 utc | 143

@134 Noirette
“The train of federalization has left the station, if it ever was a realistic option.”
Federalization was the only hope. Ukraine is an artificial country (like Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, and Iraq), cobbled together by the decrees of various Soviet premiers. Artificial countries, especially those with deep-seated ethnic rivalries, are only stable if there is something that binds them together (an ideology or a strongman), or if there is an accommodating central government that goes out of its way to protect its ethnic minorities (e.g. Canada).
I think federalization is still a possibility, but only if the coup government in Kiev collapses. Think of a “government of national unity,” a new constitution guaranteeing the culture and rights of minorities, and then a free and fair election to form a government under the new constitution. Those things look remote now (not least because the US/NATO just hate the idea), but I can conceive of a sequence of events that results in it.
The key will be what happens to the government in Kiev now. I think they have big problems that will come home to roost pretty quickly if the war really is winding down. Poroshenko is trying to excuse his losing of the war by blaming a Russian invasion, but I don’t think that flies for very long. If the economy and popular dissent don’t bite him in the ass, then I believe the fascists will.
In any event, nothing good happens in Ukraine until the coup government is gone.

Posted by: shargash | Sep 3 2014 17:16 utc | 144

@104 demian – regarding @99 Chip Nihk’s post – that was an analogy meant to convey his impressions and not to be taken literally. i thought it was a good analogy actually..
@131 shargash quote: “Actions count, not words, and the government in Kiev acted with astonishing brutality towards its own people as soon as the local police refused to put down the demonstrations in the east.” i strongly agree with you here.
@134 noirette quote: “I’d like to be optimistic as well, that some negotiations take place, etc.”
what i get from the news today is much the same. putin and poroshenko both say they are close to a ceasefire, but these conversations don’t include the key participants in donbass. perhaps poroshenko is unwilling to talk directly with the donbass leadership as it would imply a reversal and make the military operation in eastern ukraine be seen for what it was – a complete negation of the people of this area as a provocation towards them and russia. in other words – as shargash has stated – “Actions count, not words…” so far all i see is words.. until i see actions on the part of kiev, i suspect this dance will continue indefinitely.. bozo’s in europe will continue to dance to the usa’s agenda and russia will continue to support the donbass region from kiev’s ongoing aggression for the past however many months.
@136 shargash.. ditto, especially this “The key will be what happens to the government in Kiev now.” that is a ticking time bomb essentially.

Posted by: james | Sep 3 2014 17:20 utc | 145

Does anyone know anything about the Polish newsweekly Nie? They published an article a few months ago about Poland having trained Pravy Sektor troops in December, 2013, but the article seems to be gone from their site (in fact, I can’t get anything at their site at all). Here is the article from the Wayback Machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20140513062035/http://nie.com.pl/13-2014/tajemnica-stanu-tajemnica-majdanu (sorry for the long link, but I can’t figure out how to make href work on the link).
I wonder what happened to Nie. I don’t read Polish, but I can’t even find anything there to put through a translator. Maybe its that freedom of the press we have so much of in the west.

Posted by: shargash | Sep 3 2014 17:23 utc | 146

Listening to Obama and Rasmussen, the war is on. NATO is to support the junta in Kiev with weapons and manpower. Kiev is split. The Minister of Defense and intelligence service USB are following the hardliners, which is not uncommon. NATO, CIA and European intelligence services following the Pentagon, Langley and White House. Politicians like Poroshenko, Merkel, Ashton, etc do not matter. The military plan to expand NATO into Ukraine has been set in stone. One by one the politicians will succumb to might, wealth and power.
“Ukraine is defending the Free World.” A slogan from the Cold War. Freedom = svoboda = capitalism = free markets = oppression of mainstreet by wall street. It will only get worse from now on. Corporate power swings the pendulum …
The investment done by OSS, CIA, Gladio, neo-nazis, gas & oil, will push their agenda. The news items of today are just a distraction, watch tomorrow when the next military phase begins.

Posted by: Oui | Sep 3 2014 17:24 utc | 147

Bah! Sorry for the botched link. Here is the original, so you can feed it to archive.org on your own if you care: http://nie.com.pl/13-2014/tajemnica-stanu-tajemnica-majdanu.

Posted by: shargash | Sep 3 2014 17:25 utc | 148

@ shargash | Sep 3, 2014 1:23:51 PM | 138
WayBackMachine archive hyperlinks cannot be embedded on this site. Just copy and paste in the comment, the readers will have to do the same and paste the URL as the address.

Posted by: Oui | Sep 3 2014 17:28 utc | 149

@135 Merkel could have easily promised to handle a few cases and been shocked by the numbers the junta wanted to send before the war publicly went South, but like the VA, it would be nothing but peaches and cream if we weren’t producing so many veterans.
I don’t think it’s strange, and the junta will have to explain the swelling ranks of injured beggars.

Posted by: NotTimothyGeithner | Sep 3 2014 17:43 utc | 150

It sounds like OUI is right, unless it is just pre-meeting bluster, to be walked back as necessary. Frankly, I think the empire has no alternative. Better for them to crumble from war and cognitive dissonance, then to not even try and maintain what they now have. Europe, poor Europe, there will be riots in the streets and governments falling, and loss of international soft power and and more austerity. How’s that song go? “Breakin’ up is hard to do.” China will take the opportunity to regain in Africa what has been lost in Libya. And so it goes…

Posted by: Malooga | Sep 3 2014 18:10 utc | 151

oh fun
Russia is using the open sky treaty over Germany this week, German politician demands to do the same over Eastern Ukraine.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 3 2014 18:14 utc | 152

Wouldn’t a full invasion be much easier for Russia rather than dealing for months with NATO? Why aren’t they invading? Someone enlighten me.

Posted by: Shoes | Sep 3 2014 18:29 utc | 153

Russia announces mass drills ahead of NATO summit English.news.cn    2014-09-03 21:24:35
MOSCOW, Sept. 3 (Xinhua) — Russia announced Wednesday that its strategic missile forces (RVSN) wil hold large-scale drills in southern Siberia this month.
The announcement came a day before the two-day NATO summit kicks off in Wales, where leaders will discuss pressing issues concerning the situation in Eastern Europe, the Middle East and North Africa”.
More than 4,000 military personnel and about 400 pieces of hardware will take part in the drills to be held in the Altai region,” RVSN spokesman Dmitry Andreyev told reporters…”
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2014-09/03/c_133618493.htm

Posted by: really | Sep 3 2014 18:35 utc | 154

Posted by: Shoes | Sep 3, 2014 2:29:43 PM | 145
Because they don’t feel like it?

Posted by: somebody | Sep 3 2014 18:44 utc | 155

@145 Invasions cost money, lives, and resources. Part of the NAF’s success has been due to the Ukrainians not defending their flanks and not having to occupy territory. If you move into Kiev, all of a sudden the Russians need full spectrum dominance to not have what is happening to the Ukes happen to them. 45,000 soldiers is a training exercise.
Part of the reason for U.S. casualties in Iraq was because we weren’t policing the streets. IEDs could be placed because our forces weren’t watching the roads because we didn’t have the manpower. That general of Clinton’s, his name eludes me, made a detailed war plan that required hundred of thousands of soldiers to handle a refugee crisis for the inevitable succession crisis in Iraq.
Invasions don’t just happen. For guys who used smaller armies to “conquer” vast tracts, they were often liberators for the lower classes. Oh sure, the crooked elite despised them, but their forces seemed to not have to fight guerilla uprisings. Do you remember Cheney’s line about how we would be greeted in Iraq? Cheney’s personal feelings aside, that line was uttered because the cost of occupation and liberation are wildly divergent.

Posted by: NotTimothyGeithner | Sep 3 2014 18:49 utc | 156

My comment #156 should be directed at Shoes from #153.

Posted by: NotTimothyGeithner | Sep 3 2014 19:11 utc | 157

From Counterpunch.org, 2 Sep 2014:

After the Lugansk administration building was bombed by a Ukrainian aircraft on June 2, it became clear to all that the government in Kiev was ready to cross the red line. Here is a video taken just after the bombing [Video Link is at counterpunch.org]…. On July 27, after the bombing of Gorlovka, there were as many as 30 corpses in the streets. Among them were a 23-year-old mother embracing her little daughter, as witnessed in this video [Link]. Here [Link] one can see the aftermath of the Ukrainian bombing of civilian neighborhoods near Lugansk on August 15: two old ladies torn apart by missiles from Kiev…. Four days later a similar event took place: at least five residents of Makeevka near Donetsk were killed by Ukrainian bombs. Here [Link] are the victims of the Ukrainian bombing of Zugres, in the Donetsk region: a van full of corpses including a five year-old child. And here [Link] is the result of another bombing in Donetsk: women and children are regular victims of the Ukrainian army.

The message I take from the above is: The Ukrainian government and its army has a very serious intention to retake control of the east from the rebels. Surely, the setbacks they’ve been suffering in the field for the past 10 days are not going to induce them to change their minds.
Shargash #131 said Kiev has “acted with astonishing brutality”. Thus Shargash wasn’t expecting Kiev to respond as aggressively as it has. I’d like all rebel supporters to ask themselves the question: In retrospect, did you mistakenly expect that Kiev wouldn’t be as aggressive as Kiev has turned out to be? Did you mistakenly expect that Moscow wouldn’t be as stand-back-ish and neutral? And in other words did you mistakenly think the armed rebellion wasn’t going to be a real vicious destructive war? As everybody knows, much of the conflict zone in east Ukraine is without running water and electricity and is very likely to be without heating fuel for this coming winter, including natural gas. Some weeks ago Kiev said it has 50,000 troops already located in the conflict zone and is planning for more in the future. Kiev has the power to wage a long and destructive war. If you still expect Kiev is not going to use this power it has, and is going to back down with its tail between its legs, you’re going to be in for more astonshments in future, and this is an important point, and it is an essential component of the reasons why I say the rebels are blameworthy for the existence of this war. If you make war with somebody who’s able to fight back effectively, then you’re blameworthy for the destruction produced by the war.
And further, of the two warring sides, it’s the rebels who are the more blameworthy. I said in previous post on this board in August: “After decentralization shall have been implemented as promised, the eastern provinces will have locally collected tax revenues, locally elected leaders, and stronger political institutions locally, comparable to the institutions the semi-autonomous Crimea had. From that, there is a better platform from which to further decentralize or completely separate in the longer term, if the community values in the east were to move further in that direction.” I said on this board several times back in February that I was in favour of partition of Ukraine into independent countries. I still am. In an abstract world where people had the same mindset as I have, an independent east Ukraine nation-state would’ve been created civilly a decade ago. Early in March I said the coup events in Kiev had created an opportunity for the split-up of Ukraine, and I welcomed the coup from that angle. However, what has happened in the real word has been that the people of east Ukraine didn’t take up the opportunity in March, and opinion polls showed they wanted to remain within the Ukraine nation-state. Small bunches of violent armed gangs took over public buildings in the east, without the support of the civilly elected politicians of the east, and without the support of the bulk of the population that is now suffering the destruction of this war.
You can say that a surrender by the Kiev side now would be in the interests of east Ukraine. But it’s beside the point I am trying to make. Once again my point is that (a) the war was in effect started by the rebels, and (b) a surrender by the rebels is in the interests of east Ukraine.
PS @ Shargash #136 : Today’s government is Kiev is not a “coup government”. Neither the parliament nor the presidency and come about from a coup.

Posted by: Parviziyi | Sep 3 2014 19:24 utc | 158

@Parviziyi #158:
Your posts are not worth responding to in any detail. There is no point in having a discussion with someone who defends genocidal fascists. And yes, the current Kiev regime is a coup government. Again, if you can’t understand this obvious fact, there is no point in trying to explain it to you.

Posted by: Demian | Sep 3 2014 19:51 utc | 159

‘b’ said at the top of this thread: “And NATO Still In Decline…. NATO defense budgets will not increase.” That is unsupported by facts from ‘b’. I read it as rubbish. Here’s one angle from which to debunk it. The US economy grew at an annual rate of 4.2% in the 2nd quarter of 2014. That will translate to an annualized 4.2% increase in US military spending, under the assumption that the portion of US GDP to be spent on the military stays roughly constant. That assumption is a pretty valid, when you look at the USA’s growth rates in military spending over decades and look at US Congress budgeting sentiment nowadays. The UK economy grew at an annual GDP growth rate of 3.2% in the 2nd quarter of 2014. Again, such an annual GDP growth rate will almost certainly translate to a nearly 3.2% annual growth rate in UK military spending. In Canada in the 2nd quarter of 2014 the annualized GDP growth rate was 3.1%, and the same expectation is reasonably applicable with regard to its impact on Canada’s military budget. A spokesman for the prime minister of Canada said yesterday: “We agree with our NATO allies that it is important to continue increasing our defence spending, and we have committed to doing so” (ref). Regardless of whether these Anglophone-country increases end up in the budget books of the NATO organization, they are increases in the military resources of NATO countries.

Posted by: Parviziyi | Sep 4 2014 0:08 utc | 160

Malooga at 94, Merkel plays all sides of the branches in the confusing labyrinth, turned towards, solidarity with, the EU (where Germany holds the largest chunk of power, controlling it for a large part..), plus towards the US, or with the US, and/or subservient to it – meddling in Ukr. along Freedom House lines, but at the same time in competition with the US – see Eff the EU and Merkel plans for a different Coup – yet! Coup – Ukr. Gvmt. – to, as it is often interpreted, augment German commercial power, extend the industrial and other base of Germany (as in Poland, Slovenia, etc., cheap labor, **banking**, agri and so on.)
At the same time, German-Russian ties are economically very consequent, the business community is appalled re. current events, and imho the idea of Russia and Germany as the major powers holding part of the ‘center’ of Europe, in collaboration or in some kind of dominance-sharing scheme, is present in ppl’s minds, despite WW2. (See demos against Merkel, no war with Russia, etc.) The regions in-between have of course been in a kind of unfortunate, poor, limbo for a long time, not integrated here or there. Ukr. is a kind of ultimate test case, heh, of what exactly idk, hard to say.
I think federalization is still a possibility, but only if the coup government in Kiev collapses. shargash at 144. I agree… but won’t happen soon enough.

Posted by: Noirette | Sep 4 2014 15:17 utc | 161

Nato Summit Is Glaring Proof (If Ever Needed) Of Demise Of Representative Government
06/09/2014 by Don Quijones
When the inhabitants of the Welsh cities of Cardiff and Newport rolled out the red carpet for the attendees of this week’s Nato Summit, their normally calm city centers underwent a disturbing makeover. A “ring of steel” some 12 miles long and costing over 110 million dollars was erected to protect the political representatives of some of the world’s freest and most democratic nations as they freely exchanged ideas and thoughts on how to preserve the West’s global domination at the barrel of a gun.
In time-honored fashion, the UK government and mainstream press wheeled out the all too familiar terrorist bogeyman as the prime reason for such extravagent security arrangements. However, the real target of the ring of steel was an entirely different group altogether, a group of people much closer to home — that is, the disenfrahcised general public itself.
The reason why Western political leaders feel the need for such heavy-duty protection from the people they’re charged with representing is quite simple: they no longer even pretend to represent them. Instead they have become little more than a protection racket for the world’s largest corporations and richest individuals. As the full scale of the betrayal slowly dawns on the people of the West, public rage is inevitably rising.
None of this should come as a surprise given that, once elected into office on a potpourri of lofty promises they never once intended to fulfil, our governments immediately set about doing the exact opposite to what they had pledged. They enact laws and declare wars that no semi-informed citizenry would ever support. They take out the public checkbook every time a bankrupt bank needs rescuing from the consequences of its own criminally reckless and fraudulent behavior, with disastrous consequences for public finances.
Meanwhile, government representatives travel the globe signing bilateral and multilateral trade deals that gift cherished public land and vital public resources to the world’s largest corporations. Worse still, they agree to guarantee the corporations’ future profits while signing away any leverage that they, and by extension their voters, might have in any future negotiations over trade disputes. By doing so, they leave their voters cruelly exposed and ultimately defenceless to the rapacious designs of Big Finance and Capital.
Perhaps the most brutal irony of all is that as government grows increasingly (and quite justifiably) fearful of its constituency, it is cash-strapped taxpayers that must cough up every last penny to help build the security state that is needed to protect the government from the people it is meant to represent. Now, you can call such a system of governance whatever you want (I myself prefer the term “inverted totalitarianism“), but one thing it is decidedly not is democracy.
http://ragingbullshit.com/2014/09/06/nato-summit-underscores-demise-of-representative-government/

Posted by: okie farmer | Sep 7 2014 17:03 utc | 162

@162 okie farmer
That sums up the global democracy charade quite nicely.

Posted by: really | Sep 7 2014 17:23 utc | 163