Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 03, 2014

Ukraine: Obama Doubles Down?

Included in yesterdays assessment of the Ukrainian loss of the war and the coming ceasefire was this caveat:

Obama may still decide to double down and that destroying Ukraine -like Afghanistan, Libya and Syria- by prolonging the conflict is in U.S. "interests".

Pat Lang believes that Obama will take the escalation path:

Will the United States let the world "off the hook" by accepting this outcome? Perhaps it will not. The lure of the Children's Crusader vision of a future devoid of schoolyard bullies may prove too strong to ignore. NATO exercizes are planned. Speeches have been made. Grand posturing has taken place. Obama wills it! pl

That "Obama wills it" may be the reason for the confusion about a Ukrainian presidential statement today on a ceasefire agreement that came after Poroshenko had had a phonecall with Putin:

Mr. Poroshenko’s office first issued and then retracted a statement saying that the two had agreed to a “lasting cease-fire.” A spokesman for Mr. Poroshenko’s office said the initial statement, posted on the presidential website, went too far in describing the results of a telephone call between the two leaders, and that the call had not produced a formal agreement.

The statement, "The conversation resulted in an agreement on XXX in the Donbas." actual changed twice from XXX being first "lasting ceasefire" then "ceasefire" then "ceasefire regime". After the Poroshenko call Putin went public with a 7 point ceasefire plan which seems to have been the one Poroshenko had agreed to. But some "intervention", I assume from the U.S., took place to change Poroshenko's statement of a "lasting ceasefire".

The main U.S. puppet, scientology prime minister "Yaz" Yatsenyuk, is still throwing verbal bombs even though Ukraine has run out of significant military means:

“Putin’s real plan is the destruction of Ukraine and the resumption of the U.S.S.R.,” Mr. Yatsenyuk was quoted as saying. He said “the best plan to stop Russia’s war against Ukraine” would be if "Russia withdraws their regular troops, mercenaries and terrorists from Ukrainian territory — then peace will be reinstated in Ukraine.”

... and pink ponies will fly by.

To the delight of U.S. hardliners France has "postponed" the delivery of the two helicopter carrier of the Mistral type to Russia. The Russians will be happy about that. Such carriers are useful in small conflicts against minor enemies but Russia has now again to prepare for larger ones. The deal (once given to Sarkozy for his help in the 2008 Georgia conflict) included several ships some of them to be build in Russia. As part of the deal a shipyard in Russia has been modernized for the project and that important work has been finished. Russia can now (again) build such ships on its own.

If the two ships from France get not finally delivered Russia will demand back some €600 million already paid and a €1.2 billion contractual penalty. Without the Russia deal France may also have to close its shipyard in Saint-Nazaire. To hold back the ships is a terrible deal for France but president Hollande's poll rating is already so bad that the further drop in the polls for kissing Obama's ass will likely be irrelevant.

If Obama, as Pat Lang believes, wants to keep the conflict brewing we will see more destruction, more dead people and larger land losses for the current Ukraine. The end state will not change. Ukraine will become a bankrupt finlandized federation, not join the EU and not join NATO. The EU will lose a lot of business with Russia and take even longer to get out of the second great depression. China will win a lot. Not only in commerce but also because the U.S. will be busy to herd the NATO cats and to fight the non-existing Russian "threat". This will give China probably a decade of less pressure in south Asia. All for the genius of Obama and his Children's Crusader.

Posted by b on September 3, 2014 at 02:50 PM | Permalink

Comments
next page »

NATO meeting in Wales to no doubt make Ukies the guest of honor. Georgia being stiffed on membership is a puzzle. Article 10 ensures the US will have it's way, so if bear-baiting is all the rage, why isn't Georgia a precious ally to NATO goals?

Posted by: Ben Franklin | Sep 3, 2014 3:08:14 PM | 1

obama will offer open support for the war industry and a stake straight into europes heart... it would be nice to think the man of hope is going to offer some 'change' but many have been there and done that before and it is a dead end!

Posted by: james | Sep 3, 2014 3:14:56 PM | 2

Read again that the rebels offer peace, very weird since they havent got any goals achived yet. Or have they given up?

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 3, 2014 3:20:45 PM | 3

"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3M3RxzJSfU/">

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Sep 3, 2014 3:22:43 PM | 4

Link to ACLU">mearsheimer at war college

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Sep 3, 2014 3:24:05 PM | 5

b could you edit that, but it is mearsheimer in 2013 speaking of china as the main enemy. i have forgotten how to link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3M3RxzJSfU/


i thought it might be of interest

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Sep 3, 2014 3:26:17 PM | 6

In the meantime, Russian citizens started to wake up as information on deaths of Pskov paratroopers in Ukraine is unearthed. Kremlin reverted to the good old method of preventing question from being asked - two journalists were already beaten...

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 3, 2014 3:35:44 PM | 7

I can't see how these things will end well. No way the Ghouls-of-Freedom© can walk back their bs. There will have to be some terrible eclipse after which either the fairytale of Liberals triumphant will become holy writ, or the truth will emerge.

Posted by: ruralito | Sep 3, 2014 3:39:14 PM | 8

@7 So Russian soldiers are like UFOs, we all know someone who has seen one, but gosh, we just didn't get the camera out in time. If only there cameras in devices people commonly carried capable of revealing the truth!

Could you at least try plausible such as supplying next generation infantry weapons? That at least might drive military spending to catch up.

Posted by: NotTimothyGeithner | Sep 3, 2014 3:44:48 PM | 9

7

Please choose another username.

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 3, 2014 3:47:07 PM | 10

From 'The London Review of Books', "Why Not Kill Them All".
Saw this linked at Dagblog which has had some interesting discussions on the topic.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n17/keith-gessen/why-not-kill-them-all?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=3617&hq_e=el&hq_m=3374498&hq_l=9&hq_v=027d773313

Posted by: Lurker | Sep 3, 2014 3:47:08 PM | 11

The US political posture is to make the world opinion believe that Russia is a second rate power, not in the same league as the US. Thus the description of the conflict as a Ukraine-Russia dispute. It is also a signal to the latter that if she desires a partnership she should line-up, similar to Europe, behind the leader. I do not think though that US is looking for an immediate military escalation. Even if Russia goes for the hard policy of physically joining their land mass with Crimea, I doubt that Nato will react militarily. It seems to me that a framework is being built for a long-term strategic shift in policy towards adversity.

Posted by: ATH | Sep 3, 2014 3:54:15 PM | 12

'b' said: "Ukraine has run out of significant military means." That statement is as bonkers as many of the most bonkers statements that have come out of the Kiev government. As everybody knows, much of the conflict zone in east Ukraine is without running water and electricity and is very likely to be without heating fuel for this coming winter, including natural gas. You can count that as part of "significant military means". Some weeks ago Kiev said it has 50,000 troops already located in the conflict zone and is planning for more in the future. The Ukraine econony outside the eastern conflict zone is at peace and is producing goods and taxes. Kiev has the power to manufacture its own bullets, and the rebels don't. If the rebels established an armaments factory of non-small size it would be guaranteed to get destroyed by Kiev government forces, guaranteed because Kiev still has "significant military means". I read today that Kiev has gotten commitments from the West of a bit over 10 billion in "aid", i.e. free money, which will be delivered to Ukraine this year 2014 (all of which will be used to pay off Ukraine gov't debt). Kiev has the power to wage a long and destructive war. If you expect Kiev is not going to use this power it has, and is going to back down against the "terrorists", you're bonkers.

Posted by: Parviziyi | Sep 3, 2014 3:54:32 PM | 13

@Parvizyi
"If you expect Kiev is not going to use this power it has, and is going to back down against the "terrorists", you're bonkers."
So you are saying that Ukraine's President statements were blusters and lies and that Putin fell for them ? huh...

Posted by: ATH | Sep 3, 2014 3:59:56 PM | 14

has anyone here got a link to the new mearsheime paper that kicks the living shit of white house policy on ukraine

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Sep 3, 2014 4:04:28 PM | 15

No, I think the warhawks in the US can be satisfied. They may have lost a battle but it was only the first one in the new "Cold War". We will see more and more tensions between Europe and Russia. Putin will also get more paranoid when it comes to domestic issues. Precisely what the warhawks in the US want. More opportunity to foment more unrest in Russia.

Remember the appointment of Donald Tusk ? He will certainly have a major influence as well on European-Russian relations.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/31/donald-tusk-european-council-president-poland

Posted by: Willy2 | Sep 3, 2014 4:05:02 PM | 16

@ALL:

I think that Parviziyi should be treated as a troll unless he tells us his nationality and explains to us why he is sympathetic to genocidal fanatics. I have already asked him if he is Ukrainian, but he explicitly refused to answer the question.

Posted by: Demian | Sep 3, 2014 4:11:29 PM | 17

@remembererringgiap #15:

Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault

Yes, this paper demolishes the case for the US and the EU backing the Kiev junta, from a point of view based on nothing but US interests and a realist view of international relations.

Posted by: Demian | Sep 3, 2014 4:17:49 PM | 18

I understand why you use word "finlandianized." I suppose it's easier to say than "Chenyaized."

There is a simpler, truthful word, even a Hamburger understands: "Russified."

Posted by: slothrop | Sep 3, 2014 4:19:39 PM | 19

@ ATH #14: I talked about that in the immediately previous thread at #114 and #158: ref.
Both Putin and Poroshenko have been having for the most part the same views about solutions since April, i.e. they both support decentralization. (Poroshenko's rubbish and falsehoods that the Russian government has been giving military assistance to the rebels is another matter, of course). The rebels have been having a different view. Today's statement that the Kremlin's views about solutions largely coincide with Kiev's views is not new news. And isn't a sign that Poroshenko is going to climb down. Putin's proposal made today would leave the rebels in recognized legal control of Donetsk and Lugansk cities for the duration of settlement negotiations. I don't have to tell you there's been no statement from Poroshenko that he intends to give the "terrorists" this control, this respect, at this stage in the war. We've got no basis for thinking Poroshenko is likely to make such a statement in the upcoming days or weeks or months.

Posted by: Parviziyi | Sep 3, 2014 4:23:39 PM | 20

@15
Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault


By John J. Mearsheimer

Posted by: Hamburger | Sep 3, 2014 4:26:32 PM | 21

@20 Should OSCE monitor the upcoming elections, you know, just to keep it fair?

Posted by: Ben Franklin | Sep 3, 2014 4:27:28 PM | 22


Kiev in retreat on Crosstalk

A good discussion

Posted by: Hamburger | Sep 3, 2014 4:28:54 PM | 23

Parviziyi

Have you any source about the claim that poroshenko support decentralization (whatever that means)?

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 3, 2014 4:29:44 PM | 24

"Dagestanized." There, that sounds better. An alternate might be "Kereliaized"? "Tuvaized"? Nope.

"Russified." Now, that's positively mellifluous.

Posted by: slothrop | Sep 3, 2014 4:31:52 PM | 25

Would this qualify as 'Vichyized"?

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/04/world/europe/france-russia-warships.html

Posted by: Ben Franklin | Sep 3, 2014 4:35:41 PM | 26

I agree that the French cancelling those helicopter carriers is probably good news for Russia. In the most likely war that Russia will face in the next few years those carriers would be useless. The US has the power to sink them inside a few hours if Russia and the US face off in conventional war. In fact, the the US navy will also be useless in such a war. The Russians would sink any US warship that dared to venture into the Black or Baltic seas.

Posted by: ToivoS | Sep 3, 2014 4:36:23 PM | 27

@ Anon #24 : See comment #114 by me in immediately previous thread.

Posted by: Parviziyi | Sep 3, 2014 4:37:22 PM | 28

Col. Pat Mustard for President. He should run in 2016. America's first Franco.

Obama is not doubling down. So far it's been all talk and I don't see that changing.

If Putin's not a threat, why did he invade and annex Crimea and create havoc in Eastern Ukraine. Without enabling and support, there would have been no conflict in Eastern Ukraine. The so-called rebellion was and is a foisted escapade — it wasn't organic and homegrown in any way.

Anyway, Tom Nichols has a nice analysis up concerning Putin's recent nuclear threat.

If Putin Goes Nuclear

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Sep 3, 2014 4:41:39 PM | 29

Wonder if Yaz plays golf?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-03/why-obama-rushing-weeks-nato-summit


Posted by: jo6pac | Sep 3, 2014 4:41:39 PM | 30

@Parvizyi

The subject matter here, witch b's question gave rise to, is why are(were) we witnessing the de-escalation signals by both Russia and Ukraine's president versus the polarizing ones by US/Nato. Not withstanding your inaccurate assertion that "they both support decentralization" - which politically has a 180 degree opposite results than federalization, you are saying that the hard reality in Ukraine shows a central government capable of a successful fight against the federalists. The question is then, do you think Putin was duped by Porochenko?

Posted by: ATH | Sep 3, 2014 4:42:32 PM | 31

Parvizyi

Actually Poroshenko rejected that idea according to the slate link in the #114 comment by yours.

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 3, 2014 4:45:14 PM | 32


@29 You mean a one-kiloton tactical like this?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYqd9VjogPM

Posted by: Ben Franklin | Sep 3, 2014 4:46:39 PM | 33

Mearsheimer nails it, without unpleasantly fluffing Putin. See, b. Easy!

The only mistake is that the source of European economic instability is Merkel, Cameron, Draghi, and a little French guy, you know, the Neoliberal-socialist.

Posted by: slothrop | Sep 3, 2014 4:52:13 PM | 34

b, I really liked your comment "To hold back the ships is a terrible deal for France but president Hollande's poll rating is already so bad that the further drop in the polls for kissing Obama's ass will likely be irrelevant."
And this thread is going down the crappers with the likes of "parviziji" and "slothrop".
To assume that Putin and bloody Petro have the same point of views is totally offensive.
Kiev is a now a nazipit and the fascists in Washington are their patrons.
Hail Obama! Glory to Ukraine! What a madness

Posted by: slirs | Sep 3, 2014 4:56:40 PM | 35

I feel Russia is playing his cards close to the vest and letting the true aggressor which is kiev/USG/NATO just stomp around and act all bad, because he know it is really directed towards the USG/EU taxpayers . I think Putin understands that the west just wants a reason to ramp up defense spending and drive a wedge between RUSSIA-EU relations. And this is evident in the way USG/NATO is holding a "gun" to all its members to pony up their respective portions of GDP for that purpose, with most of that money if not all, going to US defense contractors coffers. The entire west manufactured ISIS threat, which is nothing but al qaeda, is another windfall to the MIC and intel complexes and resource battle. You see the western governments know that their QE bloated economies are mirages, all shiny and pretty on the top and rotted to the core on the bottom. And the western govts. really don't want to fix what they feel is not broken, let alone spend money on the 99%. So what better way to justify defense spending and distract a war weary public than ISIS and poking the Russian bear.

Does the USG/NATO really want to put boots on the ground in Ukraine and start a RUSSIA-NATO shooting war? I don't think so, it probably will be a dragged out proxy conflict which is a tragedy and unfortunate for the population of Ukraine. Eventually the country will be split.

If the USG is serious about starting a shooting war with Russia, NATO will vote that Ukraine be awarded full NATO status. Because if that were to occur, all the proxy bluffing, huffing, puffing and posturing would be over and the US population would likely find out what belligerant zero sum politics result in.

Posted by: really | Sep 3, 2014 5:00:34 PM | 36

Gird your loins, motherfuckers.

Yet another unintended consequence of removing Khaddafi…..

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/09/03/libya-islamist-militants_n_5758520.html

Posted by: Ben Franklin | Sep 3, 2014 5:00:54 PM | 37

@Cold N. Holefield #29:

Obama is not doubling down. So far it's been all talk and I don't see that changing.

If Putin's not a threat, why did he invade and annex Crimea and create havoc in Eastern Ukraine.

Yes, from the way the NY Times is covering the Ukraine crisis, I don't think that Obama (i.e., the US deep state) is doubling down. When Obama is in Estonia, his speechwriters are going to write speeches that titillate the Estonians. There is no point in speculating at length on whether the West will escalate, since we will know more when the NATO summit ends this Friday.

As for your question: read the Mearsheimer essay which has been linked to twice in this thread. Mearsheimer argues from a strictly American point of view. There is not an ounce of Russophilia in him.

Posted by: Demian | Sep 3, 2014 5:02:07 PM | 38

And OSCE just confirmed artillery shooting from Russian territory.

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 3, 2014 5:03:25 PM | 39

@"Anonymous" #39:

The real Anonymous asked you to stop using his name. That is trolling.

Posted by: Demian | Sep 3, 2014 5:08:56 PM | 40

@37 Can you link to the Comcastpost's original source or provide the relevant TXdetails? I refuse to click on that particular source.

Posted by: NotTimothyGeithner | Sep 3, 2014 5:09:12 PM | 41

@41

Sorry. Puffho leads the pack. Search engine?

Posted by: Ben Franklin | Sep 3, 2014 5:12:26 PM | 42

@ #31, #32: Search the internet for "Poroshenko" and "decentralizaton". Note on terminology: Angela Merkel said last week correctly: "What we [in Germany] mean by federalism is called decentralization in Ukraine. And that is what President [Petro Poroshenko] wants." Regarding the specifics of Ukraine's decentralization under Poroshenko, an earlier commenter said and demonstrated from Poroshenko's past record that "Poroshenko will not find it difficult to do whatever is necessary." In other words, Poroshenko's decisions and commitments will be mostly dictated by his wish to fit himself successfully into reality, no matter what that reality may be, provided he reads the reality correctly. He's not an ideologue or independent visionary.

Posted by: Parviziyi | Sep 3, 2014 5:20:59 PM | 44

@41

Sorry. Puffho leads the pack. Search engine?

Posted by: Ben Franklin | Sep 3, 2014 5:12:26 PM | 42


Here's something without huffer

http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/?articleID=2000133630&story_title=World: fear-of-second-9-11-terror-attack-after-militants-steal-11-commercial-planes-in-libya

Posted by: jo6pac | Sep 3, 2014 5:22:07 PM | 45

@42 Is it the missing planes snafu in Tripoli?

Posted by: NotTimothyGeithner | Sep 3, 2014 5:22:12 PM | 46

"He's not an ideologue or independent visionary."

Well you're half-rght.

Posted by: Ben Franklin | Sep 3, 2014 5:23:17 PM | 47

yes & the little warmonger does so, in estonia a country washed in jewish & slav blood

the balts ought to be cut from the continent & left drifting in endless bloody sea

even the 'realpolitik' - http://www.democracynow.org/2014/9/3/fmr_us_ambassador_to_resolve_ukraine#.VAd_jKVsnTQ.facebook

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Sep 3, 2014 5:23:54 PM | 48

@46 I see your point after searching other sources. {facepalm}

Posted by: Ben Franklin | Sep 3, 2014 5:25:32 PM | 49

@Parviziyi #44:

Why are you so ashamed of your nationality that you refuse to tell us what it is?

Posted by: Demian | Sep 3, 2014 5:25:51 PM | 50

The Mistral non-delivery points the way to a ratcheting up of the trade war. Britain and Italy weren't going to agree to more sanctions unless Hollande pulled the plug on the warships. They have been bitching about that for months. Now Cameron is going to have to pony up some asset seizures.

It's bad news for Boeing and Ford and Volkswagen. If the Mistral cancellation heralds more sanctions from Europe, which I believe it does, Russia will respond.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Sep 3, 2014 5:26:13 PM | 51

@45

But you just can't land a passenger jet in a cow pasture or in the desert. ....unless they have some assistance from some high up cabals....

Posted by: really | Sep 3, 2014 5:36:40 PM | 52

@52

But you can hid an oil tanker for two days...

Like that Kurdish oil tanker that disappeared a few days ago from RADAR, showed up again. Iraq seems to have quite a reach. Maybe this was the same radar/sat that didn’t know where MH370 was, or is.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2740111/Kurdish-oil-tanker-disappeared-radar-Texas-coast-REAPPEARS.html

Posted by: Ben Franklin | Sep 3, 2014 5:40:34 PM | 53

@37 ben.. obviously libya was usafied, adopting the lingo of slothrop..whether sloth thinks ukraine has been usafied.... curious folks want to know...i feel usafried is actually a more picturesque word,lol..

@51 mike.. interesting and intelligent analysis on that.. thanks.

Posted by: james | Sep 3, 2014 5:43:38 PM | 54

...If Obama, as Pat Lang believes, wants to keep the conflict brewing we will see more destruction, more dead people and larger land losses for the current Ukraine...

http://slavyangrad.org/2014/09/02/an-interview-with-alexey-mozgovoy-commander-of-the-lugansk-ghost-brigade-290814/

Interview with Alexey Mozgovoy, Commander of the “Ghost” Brigade, 29/08/14

...Q: Are you planning to assault Kiev?

A: Why not? For some reason they are allowed to assault Lugansk, Donetsk. Is Kiev any better than those cities?


Q: And after Kiev? Further west?

A: It depends. If the soldiers on the other side finally realise that they are fighting themselves, the war could be over tomorrow...

Posted by: Nemo | Sep 3, 2014 6:07:24 PM | 55

Posted by: Nemo | Sep 3, 2014 6:07:24 PM | 55

I read that to mean Russia won't stop with Eastern Ukraine. It wants the Whole Megillah, and Ukraine is but a small part of the Whole Megillah.

With Col. Pat Mustard at the helm starting in 2016, they're sure to have it because mature adults bend over when confronted unlike children who bite when you take something from them.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Sep 3, 2014 6:17:07 PM | 56

@50 You're obviously obsessed on people's nationalities. As I explained before, if you're living in Russia you need to be careful what information you provide about yourself because people get beaten and killed here for free speech.

Posted by: misty6 | Sep 3, 2014 6:17:44 PM | 57

you are more likely top end up dead in baltimore or idaho

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Sep 3, 2014 6:30:43 PM | 58

@29 "If Putin's not a threat, why did he invade and annex Crimea and create havoc in Eastern Ukraine."

Read. Mearsheimer's. Article.

He explains very clearly why he annexed the Crimea (b.t.w. the Russians didn't "invade" the Crimea, since the navy base was already there).

Posted by: Johnboy | Sep 3, 2014 6:34:39 PM | 59

@Cold N. Holefield #56:

There is no need for Russia to invade western Ukraine. (Not that it has invaded any part of the former Ukraine.) Mozgovoy is just a brigade commander (albeit the one who started organizing militias for the resistance); he cannot tell us what the intentions of the Novorossian general staff are. The remark about going all the way to Kiev was just a rhetorical point.

Russia has had its fill of occupations, unlike the US, which can never get enough of them. Russia will just wait for western Ukrainians to devour each other.

Posted by: Demian | Sep 3, 2014 6:36:52 PM | 60

#1;Georgia ended Sakashvilli's regime,and I'm a little unsure,but I thought I read they want to put him on trial.Probably for being a freaking traitor and western whore.So maybe that's why Georgia was left out.
One thing that alarms me a little,is the ethnic nationalism and aspersions of other ethnics.We really don't have that here in the USA,those European historical enmities.Sad,in the 21st century.Let's have a little kumbaya men(and ladies)!
Of course we have our ugly racism.
Childrens Crusade;Yep.Freaking yuppie poison ivy league children,playing with lethal toys,and the lot of them useless pos.

Posted by: dahoit | Sep 3, 2014 6:38:54 PM | 61

@remembererringgiap #58:

Parviziyi is an obvious troll. misty6 wrote, "As I explained before, if you're living in Russia you need to be careful what information you provide about yourself". But when he did that, he used the name "Parviziyi". So Parviziyi and misty6 are the same troll.

Posted by: Demian | Sep 3, 2014 6:44:46 PM | 62

To Holden Trollfield -- oops, I mean Cold N. Holefield, @29

Please explain -- if you have treaty rights to be in the Crimea, how is it an "invasion"?

Annex -- you mean like the US annexed Texas back in the 1800's?

Texas rebelled vs. the dictator Santa Ana. It exercised it's Hobbesian/Lockean "right to rebel," (i.e., if the sovereign/state cannot or will not protect you and indeed represses you, you may dissolve the social contract). It subsequently joined the US, has had been the intent of Austin and Houston all along.

What's the phrase from the Declaration of Independence? Time for one nation to dissolve the ties that bind it to the other, more or less, isn't CNH?

Similarly, faced with a murderous, openly fascist, anti-Russian regime (see the Odessa Massacre, to cite but one example), the Ukraine rebelled. It then exercised it's sovereign right to re-join Russia (from which NS Khrushchev transferred it back in the 1950's).

And before you start -- sure, the Pravii Sektor crowd was not the majority of the US State Dept. approved crowd at Maidan. But they were the muscle that intimidated the Parliament into violating the Urkainian constitution and the EU-brokered agreement. And they're still calling the shots, no?

The havoc comes from the Maidan coup, not from resisting it. Blame the victim, classic response of the bully.

Long-time reader, first time poster. This mindless repetition of whole "invasion/seizure" meme is starting to annoy me. If it's challenged enough here, maybe it will spread 'til the "pressitutes" catch on. I doubt if I'm alone in this opinion. Maybe too optimistic, though.

Posted by: rufus magister | Sep 3, 2014 6:51:14 PM | 63

@ #39

Just read the OSCE link in full. Very interesting information there and thank you for drawing that to our attention. However the OSCE observers are emphatically not confirming cross border fire from Russia to Ukraine.

Posted by: oldhippi | Sep 3, 2014 6:55:14 PM | 64

rufus magister @ #63,

Well done, but unfortunately logic and facts bounce off of our resident palooka, Evander Trollyfield. Unlikely that you will receive an answer, at least not one cognizable as such. Rather, it is more to be expected that he'll be back again tomorrow - if not sooner - reiterating the same farrago of bald-face lies & indefensible assertions.

Posted by: JerseyJeffersonian | Sep 3, 2014 7:13:27 PM | 65

In all that has happened in Ukraine since February the key rhetorical sleight of hand by the U.S. and its European vassals is to say that Russia has been the aggressor -- in Crimea, in the Donbass. When in fact the fascist junta in Kiev has been the aggressor all along -- in a violent Kiev putsch with weapons seized from the armory in Lviv, in attacking Donbass civilians. Think back to the drunken Right Sector APC marauding in Mariupol during Victory Day in May.

Now that the junta's offensive has stalled, its raison d'etre has evaporated. It is in real trouble.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Sep 3, 2014 7:21:13 PM | 66

@56 misty6.. interesting time to jump into the conversation.. it is what a troll would do.

Posted by: james | Sep 3, 2014 7:23:51 PM | 67

"It is in real trouble."

Lacking another Obama double-down. I always hold at eighteen. I break even almost always.

Posted by: Ben Franklin | Sep 3, 2014 7:24:54 PM | 68

@62 demian, ditto your viewpoint. i posted my comment before reading yours.

Posted by: james | Sep 3, 2014 7:25:13 PM | 69

I think attacking someone's views based on their origin is pointless.

Parviziyi has a number of notions which - to me - seem wrong, albeit for different reasons than other posters.

This individual has a belief that Western money given to the Ukrainian government will go straight to its military. The problem with this belief is that the Ukrainian state is in a pitiful condition. Trade is down - hence revenue. Equally, I find it beyond imagination to think that a nation at war has a better economy internally - especially when said fighting is being conducted on its own land. Besides thousands of young men doing nothing positive economically - shooting bullets, rockets, and shells doesn't create value - or getting killed and wounded (the latter an ongoing drain), there's also the diversion of resources into making those bullets, shells, and rockets. Ukraine has already spent a large sum buying various pieces of equipment from ex-Warsaw Pact nations, but the vast majority of funds needed by the junta is to pay off interest on existing debt, to prop up the hryvnia, and to buy supplies ranging from energy, to various industrial parts and chemicals, to medical supplies and other human-support related commodities.

This seems on par with the magical thinking I have personally witnessed with some of the young (very young) Maidan activists I've met in the US.

Posted by: c1ue | Sep 3, 2014 7:39:44 PM | 70

@61

If aspersions to other ethnics bothers you, why didn't you call #1 out on his repeated use of the term, "Ukies"?

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Sep 3, 2014 7:47:21 PM | 71

to JJ @ 65

Thanks, it's Sisyphean task, I know. Hope springs eternal....

More to the edification of others than CDH. When it comes to discussion of Russia, a real deficit of logic and facts. Trying to do my part to correct that.

As Brian Eno put it in his "Oblique Strategies," "Not building a wall but making a brick."

Posted by: rufus magister | Sep 3, 2014 7:51:22 PM | 72

200 US troops to join Ukraine war game


The Pentagon says 200 US troops will be deployed to Ukraine to take part in a military exercise in the country later this month.

This will be the first deployment of US ground troops to Ukraine since Kiev engaged in a bloody conflict with pro-Russians in the east earlier this year.

Pentagon spokesman Colonel Steven Warren confirmed that "approximately 200 personnel" from the US military will join exercise on September 13 to 26 in Yavoriv, about 60 kilometers (37 miles) from Lviv in western Ukraine.

The annual military exercise, dubbed the Rapid Trident, will include more than 1,000 military personnel from 15 countries.

Meanwhile, about 280 US naval forces were scheduled to hold a separate maritime war game with troops from Ukraine, Turkey, Georgia and Romania in the Black Sea next week.

The USS Ross, a guided missile destroyer, and two vessels from a North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) maritime group will join the naval drill, dubbed the Sea Breeze.


Good thing it's only a game. Imagine if it were a real war. With people fighting and dying and ...

Posted by: john francis lee | Sep 3, 2014 8:00:14 PM | 73

"...Increased European defense spending is not sustainable over time without major economic reforms and we have not seen that yet,” the vice president said“.

I cringe a little when American leaders go over to European countries and say‘You need to spend more money on defense.’ Because their fiscal drivers are even worse than ours,” Carafano concluded..."

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140903/192610293/NATO-Allies-Defense-Increases-Could-Disrupt-Economies.html

Posted by: really | Sep 3, 2014 8:10:59 PM | 74

Posted by: john francis lee | Sep 3, 2014 8:00:14 PM | 73

Yeah, a better excuse would have been "they'll be vacationing in Ukraine" or "they were on military maneuvers and strayed off course ten thousand miles and found themselves, too late of course, accidentally in Ukraine."

A game. Do they think we're that gullible? Learn from Putin you numbskulls how to come up with better excuses.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Sep 3, 2014 8:15:09 PM | 75

One thing to notice is the UK and its media are the 'attack dogs' in all this. They are always at the front line of pushing escalation and screaming at the top of their lungs 'Wolf'.

Here is a lovely piece from the Independent pushing for escalation http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/from-what-we-know-of-putin-its-clear-that-natos-best-option-is-to-press-on-9709432.html

Snippets:

First the 'Putin is Hitler, Russia is Nazi Germany' thing, for 3 paragraphs no less, you'd think they would be bored with this by now, but...
"Indeed, the briefing papers should remind the assembled heads of government of some useful history. Hitler’s first invasions were ethnic in intention. They were directed to countries that were either German-speaking (Austria) or had large German-speaking minorities (Czechoslovakia)"

Then the push for escalation, note the bold part:

"Nonetheless, at the risk of inflaming Russian fears, there are two strong actions that Nato should take and these should be supported by parallel measures that the same nations can take outside Nato. In the first place, it must regularly make a show of force in the Baltic States. Nato troops should have a persistent presence there. There should be a regular cycle of training and exercising in order to demonstrate that Nato is capable of defending its member states by land, sea and air.

Second, the various discussions about creating a rapid reaction force should be brought to concrete, credible conclusions. A good example is the place where the Malaysian airliner was shot down by Russian missiles in July. Nato should have been able immediately to secure the site regardless of the intentions of the rebel forces. That sort of task would be the raison d’être of a rapid reaction capability.

The two supporting actions are that economic support should be provided for Ukraine. For in the end, economic strength is more valuable than military might. In addition it is well worth pushing forward with further sanctions targeted at Russia’s financial sector."

Now arguing for (and look at a map) for a NATO force large enough to have been able to go that far into the Ukraine to the MH17 crash site would have been a real 'invasion' by any standards. That would have involved direct fighting between NATO and the Federalist forces and NATO would need to bring full air power into it too. Plus a huge support effort. Now that would have been a real war.

What I am curious about? This is not a stupid person, not just a common hack, does he actually believe what he writes? This is such a fantasy thing that is so far removed from (very easily checked) objective facts that it might just as well be science fiction story. Or has he been told to write it, by say MI6 or the Foreign office? Is he a 'fool' or a 'tool' or some weird combination of the both?

For me this is the most interesting 'back story' in all this. This article sums up the western media to a 'T'. Nothing, no matter how ridiculous is beyond them now. Any connection to reality is long gone, the only thing that matters to them is the latest Kiev Govt/State Dept/Foreign Office/etc twitter announcement. Makes the old USSR's Pravda (etc) look like paragons of truth.

Posted by: OldSkeptic | Sep 3, 2014 8:17:13 PM | 76

You know, I honestly try to be objective in my view of world events. When someone gives a link that purports to disprove something I believe (or prove something I disbelieve) I almost always click on it. If I'm wrong I want to know.

However, when it comes to the pro-Ukrainian view, the evidence is really bad, embarrassingly horrifically bad. So when Anonymous-the-troll @39 says the OSCE proves that artillery is being fired from Russian territory, I click the link. There is nothing of the sort in the article. The claim is bullshit. When Anonymous-the-troll @7 links to an article by the Guardian, I follow it. Of course, the article is the usual Guardian propaganda BS -- they interview some defeated, demoralized Ukie troops who justify their defeat and humiliation by claiming it couldn't have been "ragtag" militia that kicked their ass, it had to be regular Russian troops (par for the course for Guardian).

But then Guardian article approvingly links to a video of some tanks in the Ukraine. The video repeatedly asserts that the tanks are Russian, and I'm looking for some evidence that they are, indeed Russian -- flags, insignia, uniforms, license plates, anything. Nothing. But the video assures me they must be Russian because "only the Russians have T-72 tanks in service." Here is Wikipedia on the T-72, "The T-72 was the most common tank used by the Warsaw Pact from the 1970s to the collapse of the Soviet Union. It was also exported to other countries, such as Finland, India, Iran, Iraq, Syria and Yugoslavia, as well as being copied elsewhere, both with and without licenses" and "Several countries, including Russia and Ukraine, also offer modernization packages for older T-72s."

How stupid are these people? How stupid do they think we are?

Posted by: shargash | Sep 3, 2014 8:26:32 PM | 77

@rufus magister:

No, rufus. You are definitely not alone in that opinion. Hole-in-the-Head is just our resident troll. You'll get used to him after a while. He actually does us a bit of a service now and then, keeping us up-to-date on the party line.

Posted by: Seamus Padraig | Sep 3, 2014 8:30:32 PM | 78

libération & guardian really take the cake tho, more more sensless non sense per square inch

scribblers

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Sep 3, 2014 8:37:44 PM | 79

shargash @#77,

You must remember that these "Big Lies" are not aimed at you, someone who takes the considerable trouble to become informed from alternative sources of news and commentary; but rather, they are aimed at the beaten-down, utterly propagandized populations of Europe and the US. They have been softened up through years of subtle and not-so-subtle Pavlovian conditioning to hear a bell, and to drool when thus presented with the stimulus. They live unquestioning lives within The Matrix of the NeoLiberal/NeoConservative mindfuck, collaborating in their own degradation and impoverishment, material and spiritual. Goebbels, Bernays...they knew how to do it, and so it was done. Disheartening it is, but save your scorn for the puppeteers, and not for the puppets.

Posted by: JerseyJeffersonian | Sep 3, 2014 8:45:40 PM | 80

Germany says arms to Ukraine not on NATO summit agenda
9/3/2014

"...The chancellor and foreign minister have always said they see no possible military solution to this conflict," said the official, adding that he knew of no proposal from any NATO member state to deliver weapons to Ukraine, though that does not rule out there being bilateral proposals"..."

http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKBN0GY1GX20140903?irpc=932

Bilateral proposals is code for the US Congress possibly passing the Russian Aggression Prevention Act of 2014, which has been marinating on the crock pot congressional docket since May 2014. If it passes the US will bilaterally give Kiev all kinds weapons to kill its citizens in eastern Ukraine.

Posted by: really | Sep 3, 2014 8:47:05 PM | 81

I'll chime in with another nugget on the theme of "How stupid are these people? How stupid do they think we are?". This nugget is from a recently-resigned foreign-affairs news editor at the Washington Post who has recently moved to an Internet-only news outlet called VOX.com (whose mission statement is to intelligently explain what's in the news, on topics of all kinds):

27 Aug 2014. Let's be clear about this: Russia is invading Ukraine right now.... Russian President Vladimir Putin learned a crucial lesson from Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad last year, when the latter got away with using chemical weapons against his own people. That lesson is this: the Western world can set all the red lines it wants — don't use chemical weapons, don't invade sovereign countries — but if you cross that red line just a little bit at a time, inching across over weeks and months, rather than crossing it all at once, then Western publics and politicians will get red-line fatigue and lose interest by the time you're across. http://www.vox.com/2014/8/27/6069415/lets-be-clear-about-this-russia-is-invading-ukraine-right-now

Posted by: Parviziyi | Sep 3, 2014 8:51:23 PM | 82

New angle.
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/09/03/the-whys-behind-the-ukraine-crisis/

Posted by: Phillip | Sep 3, 2014 8:57:08 PM | 83

@OldSkeptic #76:

The only thing that matters to them is the latest Kiev Govt/State Dept/Foreign Office/etc twitter announcement. Makes the old USSR's Pravda (etc) look like paragons of truth.

RT ran a story about Putin's press secretary pointing out that even though Jen Psaki said this week that USG has no more evidence (other than those questionable satellite photos) that there are Russian troops in the Ukraine, here is what Obama said in Estonia:

The Russian forces that have now moved into Ukraine aren't on a 'humanitarian' or 'peacekeeping mission.' They are Russian combat forces with Russian weapons in Russian tanks. There are Russian warheads with Russian weapons and Russian tanks. Now, these are the facts. They are provable. They're not subject to dispute.

So Obama is worse than Psaki now.

Also, notice that the language is obsessive and solipsistic. What does "They're not subject to dispute" mean? Since Russia is disputing them, it can only mean that no country is allowed to contradict anything the US government says. The language shows that the Empire hysterically wants to convince itself that it is still the world hegemon.

Posted by: Demian | Sep 3, 2014 9:03:13 PM | 84

Demian, reminds me of the (in)famous Kerry statement about the 'Syrian gas attack', think he said 'we know' 30+ times....and contradicted by Porton Down tests the next day.....

As I said a 'reality free zone'. To quote
"The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."[2]"

This has changed, there is no 'reality based community' within western mainstream media or western political communities now.

This is the ultimate example of 'hubris' which is followed by 'nemesis'.

Posted by: OldSkeptic | Sep 3, 2014 9:12:25 PM | 85

Demian @ #84,

To paraphrase Obama, "Do not arouse the wrath of the great and powerful Oz!"

Or something like that.

Posted by: JerseyJeffersonian | Sep 3, 2014 9:18:46 PM | 86

@84 Demian

You are correct Obama is now worse than Psaki, but is he worse than ex-CIA Marie Harf? I guess Obama has totally embraced 'the truth is what I say it is!'™ brand of political persuasion.

Posted by: really | Sep 3, 2014 9:30:31 PM | 87

@63
Texas history is a bit more complicated. Santa Ana's actions against the Tejas side of Cohauila y Tejas did not help but S. Ana understood what the uSA was after. Sam Houston was Old Hickory's lackey. 1945 was the culmination of what the early conflicts over immigration, back in 1830-2,

Posted by: JaimeInTexas | Sep 3, 2014 9:34:03 PM | 88

@39

" The OM heard considerable artillery detonations from the Donetsk Border Crossing Point."

" The OTs continued to receive numerous accounts of severe destruction caused by artillery fire which resulted in the interruption of water, gas and electricity supplies, the latter apparently unavailable for more than five weeks in some areas including Luhansk city itself."

" Throughout the week, shootings, blasts and artillery detonations were heard at various times of the day and night, and from different distances and directions around the Donetsk Border Crossing Point. Artillery detonations were especially intense during the weekend in the direction north of Krasnodon. Throughout the night of 30 to 31 August, dozens of very loud artillery detonations were heard and felt by an OT. The detonations were close by in a westerly/ north-westerly direction.

In the past weeks, artillery detonations and shootings had been heard only from western and northern directions; but throughout the week for the first time OTs reported light and heavy calibre shootings from the east and south-east areas which are also bordering Ukraine."

These are references to artillery in the OSCE report. Not a solid "from Russian territory" as you made it to be.

Posted by: JaimeInTexas | Sep 3, 2014 10:00:49 PM | 89

@JaimeInTexas #89:

All this "shooting from Russian territory" and "Russian tanks and soldiers in Ukraine" nonsense is so annoying because Russia doesn't do half-measures when it comes to military responses.

Obviously, a fighting force capable of resisting a professional army, even if not a very good one, is not going to spontaneously emerge in a few months, which appears to be what has happened. But the assistance that Russia gives the people of Donbass is covert, and of the same kind that the US gives all over the world to rebels in countries it wants to destabilize.

Posted by: Demian | Sep 3, 2014 10:38:09 PM | 90

@Seamus Padraig, 78

I've noticed Our Resident Troll before, he finally got my goat. At least he's funnier than O'Reilly, Limbaugh, Ingraham & Co. Have I set the bar too low there?

@ Jersey Jeff, 65

You were 1/2 right -- there he is at 75, but responding, let us say light-heartedly, to JF Lee @ 74. But that's more a jibe at JFL's post than an reasoned argument. Don't I at least rate a wise-crack?

@ JaimeInTexas, 88

Point taken. Norteamericanos had been invited to settle earlier, then Mexico saw what trouble they could cause. Many wanted to hive Tejas off earlier. I recall the "Republic of Fredonia" in the late 1820's. The Mexican-American War is a good example of early US imperial expansion, totally provoked.

But -- Santa Ana was an all-around dictator (several times) in Mexico. A no. of states rose against him after "the Seven Laws" established a Catholic, centralist gov't. in 1835, and he was almost as brutal in suppressing them. And if memory serves, many of the original Spanish settlers sided with the Republic, but were later repaid by having their lands stolen. Austin had supported the gov't against Fredonia, but changed his views.

Viva Zapata! Viva Subcomandante Marcos! Viva la Revolucion!

(Hey, I know it's off topic, couldn't help myself).

rm

Posted by: rufus magister | Sep 3, 2014 10:41:32 PM | 91

@76 OldSkeptic.. reading the comment section to that article is a relief as they refute the bs andreas whittam smith drones on about.. it is shocking though how the propaganda is dished out so freely as if it has a basis in truth and is newsworthy. it seems like the msm thinks they are dealing with brain dead people.. what demian quotes of obama @84 is more of the same bs drivel.. it really is pathetic.

Posted by: james | Sep 3, 2014 10:49:29 PM | 92

Oops, let me clarify -- totally provoked by the Americans. Spanish sided with the Repub. of Texas, got payback by having their lands stolen.

To Parviziyi @ 83

Why would the Syrian Ba'athists have used chemical weapons when they were winning? Please see (amongst other evidence) the analysis by Gareth Porter posted at TruthOut, Tuesday, 29 April 2014:

Posted by: rufus magister | Sep 3, 2014 11:00:12 PM | 93

Hey, this is my last one tonite, I promise. Further to my #93, I botched the link:

http://truth-out.org/news/item/23368-new-data-raise-further-doubt-on-official-view-of-aug-21-gas-attack-in-syria

Posted by: rufus magister | Sep 3, 2014 11:01:52 PM | 94

WilliamBanzai7 nails it -

Trouble at the "NATO PROVABLE FACTS LAB"

The Green Man's gone berserk, Merkel's regretting her part, Van Rompuy's got fuck-all to add, and is that Cameron? Hitler?

This abomination needs to be dealt with. And so it shall.

[an earlier version of the image did not revel the abomination to be Peter Pan - now I'm confused]

Posted by: Anon | Sep 3, 2014 11:04:55 PM | 95

Oh Dear. http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/25981/53/

A letter sent by a prominent Dutch Professor to Russian president Vladimir Putin has attracted much media attention in Europe. The letter was written by Professor Cees Hamelink and signed by dozens of Dutch intellectuals and professors. Below is the letter in its entirety.

"It’s unfortunately true, that our media have lost all independence and are just mouthpieces for the Powers that Be. Because of this, Western people tend to have a warped view of reality and are unable to hold their politicians to account."

Posted by: TikTok | Sep 3, 2014 11:32:25 PM | 96

Fascist pseudo-anti-fascism advances in Russia

So, let me get this straight, we support Isis and Fascist's? Can you say job security? For, well, not YOU.

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Sep 3, 2014 11:33:59 PM | 97

@ 76 old skeptic

This is not a stupid person, not just a common hack, does he actually believe what he writes?


What you’re reading is simply a case of HMV ( his master’s voice). Whether he believes what he writes is as irrelevant as what he has to say. He is simply talking his book or rather his master’s book.

The owner of the Independent just happens to be Alexander Lebedev, a Russian oligarch who has crossed swords with Putin.

from Wikipedia:

Lebedev, together with the former President of the Soviet Union, Mikhail Gorbachev, is the owner of 49% of Novaya Gazeta, one of the most vocal newspapers critical of the current Russian Government.

In September 2008, Russian politician Mikhail Gorbachev announced he was going to make a comeback to Russian politics along with Lebedev. Their party will be called the Independent Democratic Party of Russia.


Lebedev is simply applying the Zionist model in regard to main stream media.

Posted by: pantaraxia | Sep 3, 2014 11:35:10 PM | 98

Russian Spring

09/04/2014-03:47

Defense Minister of Donetsk People Republic Vladimir Kononov about situation in Donetsk airport

As of 15:30 August 3rd, the Ukrainian troops dislocated in the airport are blocked by double encirclement:

“I do not want to quote the number of blocked. Their chances to escape are absolutely none. The only way for them to survive is to surrender. This was told them repeatedly, but apparently this appears them unacceptable. They are being struck; you may hear our special units work at them, practically, all groups centered there are working, including artillery.”

They have holed up in an old airport terminal.

“These people brought a great harm to residential complexes and civilians of Donetsk. Howitzer and mortar batteries would move forth and shell the railway station, suburb Kirovskoye – all originated from the airport”.


Russian Spring

09/03/2014-20:43

From the Army of South-East:

Donetsk.

The opponent was withdrawing and regrouping units being in siege.

Mariupol` direction underwent no changes.

Tense situation reported from Volnovakha. Part of the city is taken; other part is under Ukrainian military. Multitude of heavy military hardware. The hardcore troops are “Praviy Sector”, which are giving way to the regular (Ukrainian) army.

Lugansk.

Subdivisions of punitive troops had been thrown out of Krasniy Yar, Stukalova Balka, Shishkovo (between Veselaya Gora and Lugansk). They are also retreating from Veselaya Gora (Merry Mount) and Schast`e (Fortune).


Posted by: Fete | Sep 4, 2014 12:00:15 AM | 99

@90 "because Russia doesn't do half-measures" ...and you're saying this as Russian official here or what? All Baltics and Western Ukraine in 20's and 30's were taken over exactly by the same tactics - first local communists started "uprising" and then Red Army entered "to protect Russian minority". This failed only with Poland and Finland.

As for OSCE, just go and read it again. In section titled Observation at the Donetsk Border Crossing Point there's a paragraph that clearly mentions artillery shooting "from the east and south-east areas which are also bordering Ukraine".

Posted by: misty6 | Sep 4, 2014 1:03:23 AM | 100

next page »

The comments to this entry are closed.