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September 8, 2014
Open Thread 2014-21
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I see BBC Propaganda is still selling shilling their BUK story as late as yesterday. See:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29109398
The Russian military have released their radar records of MH17’s final moments that appeared to show the aircraft breaking up in flight and a sudden loss of airspeed, dropping from cruising velocity (estimating about 800km/hr) to 200km/hr before dropping from radar observation. One might expect an intact plane to lose its velocity at a much slower rate and travel a much greater distance before landing. Another curiosity involved reports that an A to A missile first struck the starboard engine (presumably disabling it), but the plane turned to its port, implying the pilots were able to regain control of the aircraft. That is when one of the two recorded planes attacked the disabled airliner with cannon fire into the cockpit area.
It is getting time to disable the propaganda machines, the administrations they service and the economic interests that fund the continuation of this agenda and the intelligence surveillance providing information services. The future depends upon it. One should note the unusually high number of medical researchers that have been silenced in both the MH370 and the MH17 air incidents. Is this a bug or a feature?
Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Sep 9 2014 9:53 utc | 101
@95
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous-rod_warhead
isnt this what BUK is?
now if so why didn the OSCE canadian guy say so? …he said:
‘“There have been two or three pieces of fuselage that have been really pockmarked with what almost looks like machinegun fire; very, very strong machinegun fire,” Bociurkiw said in the interview.’
http://www.nst.com.my/node/20961
Posted by: brian | Sep 9 2014 9:55 utc | 102
BBC: Dutch experts say numerous objects hit plane
This report doesn’t say flight MH17 was knocked from the sky by a missile. But it pretty much rules out anything else.
Actually, it doesn’t rule out MH17 having been shot down by machine gun fire from a fighter jet.
a new anagram re scottish independence FUK [Former United Kingdom]
oops?!
Posted by: brian | Sep 9 2014 10:05 utc | 104
Curiously, no anglophone news reports I’ve seen note that the Dutch Safety Board report only mentions damage to “the forward fuselage and cockpit section of the aircraft”. I guess that must not be important, even though the report uses that exact phrase twice, in two successive one-sentence paragraphs.
Posted by: Demian | Sep 9, 2014 6:23:51 AM | 104
The Dutch safety board seems to have said in the Press Conference that “metal objects were found in the bodies of the crew”.
Its not in the preliminary report. Forensics are supposed in the final report 2015.
But if true, it is very easy to decide what brought the airplane down. The silence presumably due to this fact.
Posted by: somebody | Sep 9 2014 10:37 utc | 106
somebody
“But if true, it is very easy to decide what brought the airplane down. The silence presumably due to this fact.”
What do you mean? Explosion/missile?
Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 9 2014 10:43 utc | 107
Just heard on the msm propaganda outlet that there are members of congress that do not want to own any future military action against ISIL especially in Syria. The congress now appears to think that just because the US public supports destroying ISIL in Iraq and Syria because polling data indicates such, gives congress the right to not vote on military action against ISIL and allows Obama to act unilaterally. Ummmm WRONG!
If polling data of americans is all that is needed for a president to act on issues of war and peace why does the USG need a legislative branch of govt.? Btw, the msm acts all surprised that the polling now indicates that americans support action against ISIL in Syria and Iraq. After all the USG and msm sensationalism about ISIL’s threat to the entire globe and the ceaseless viewing of the western journalists snuff videos by the msm, how could the US public not want to support action against ISIL?
Ccongress must vote on any military action against ISIL. Like I said before congress needs to be on the record for this and show the US military that the entire USG approves any current and future missions against ISIL.
Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 9, 2014 6:43:10 AM | 106
The crew = the cockpit
pieces of metal inside their bodies = incoming stuff
With a piece of metal you can decide who produced it for what type of weaponry. Highly unlikely different types of weapons use the same stuff.
Strong indicator of this not going well: Western MSM has lost interest.
Posted by: somebody | Sep 9 2014 10:56 utc | 109
somebody
Ok I sensed that metal objects were from the plane itself but I guess you might be right.
Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 9 2014 10:57 utc | 110
○ Both the R-60 missile and the Buk SAM have a fragmentation pattern.
The R-60 has a high-explosive warhead and a passive infrared guidance system. The initial explosive force destroys the engine.
Air-to-air missile Vympel R-60 NATO code AA-8 Aphid
Guidance: Infra-red (heat-seeking)
Warhead: 9.4 kg (20.8lb) annular blast-fragmentation
The Buk warhead has a proximity fuze and explodes at approx. 30m from target, sending high-velocity shrapnel towards plane. It has a 70 kg HE fragmentation warhead.
The explosive power of the R-60 is limited, but it is a direct hit.
@Oui #110:
One scenario that was discussed was that first an air-to-air missile was used. That disabled an engine, which forced MH25 to reduce its altitude, which brought it within range of an SU-25, which could then finish it off with cannon fire to the cockpit.
Since the last words of the MH25 crew have now been released, based on the flight recorders, we now know that the crew did not inform ATC that they had been hit. I think we can rule out from that that an air-to-air missile was used. If it were, the crew would have had time to inform ATC that MH17 was in trouble.
Posted by: Demian | Sep 9, 2014 7:16:04 AM | 111
That is another curious omission of the report – the blackbox must have recorded the sound of the explosion.
Like described here
“It would have recorded the sound of the explosion, which under forensic analysis, would reveal what type of explosion it was,” aviation security expert and commercial pilot, Desmond Ross said.
The sound of the explosion would allow forensic analysts to determine if the missile fired at MH17 was indeed the SA-11 BUK. The BUK has been identified as the weapon that shot down MH17 by preliminary US intelligence reports.
Posted by: somebody | Sep 9 2014 11:44 utc | 113
pics of those holes made by the ‘high energy objects!’
China Xinhua News @XHNews 1m
MH17 plane was penetrated by many high-energy objects from outside: Dutch investigators pic.twitter.com/VJhsgJyIDJ
Posted by: brian | Sep 9 2014 12:05 utc | 115
First impression, sloppy reporting. I miss the specification when data was received. Nothing about what and when was received from Russian Federation and of course most importantly the ATC recordings from NBAAI.
The position of the main wreckage is to the left (north side) of flight path. This would indicate MH17 lost ite left wing first. The Boeing 777 broke apart in the air, structural damage caused an instantaneous loss of power, crew were incapacitated and wreckage was strewn over a very large area. Can we determine whether shrapnel of a Buk SAM could cause such damage? I suppose if the warhead exploded at or near left wing.
What I find interesting is the pattern of shrapnel damage. With the Buk missile, there would be a scattering over a wide area on the fusilage of the plane. As I understand it, the air-to-air R-60 missile is heatseeking, explodes at engine, destroys wing and in a focused pattern in extension of flight line would hit the fusilage.
The vast destruction of the cockpit must provide a clue what caused the destruction.
An active member of Dutch parliament Van Bommel found the preliminary report incomplete. There is no data from military sources which should be available.
Another input from a lawyer representing the victims, mentioned the draft report was sent to international parties involved in the investigation and returned with proposed changes. That part will be kept confidential.
has a 9 sept update
http://professorsblogg.com/2014/08/05/analysing-the-evidence-concluding-that-the-malaysian-airlines-mh17-was-shot-by-ukraine-su-25-fighter-jets/
Posted by: brian | Sep 9 2014 12:27 utc | 117
Posted by: Oui | Sep 9, 2014 8:12:00 AM | 115
It is clear that they know what happened and the report is put out because something has to be reported now. Nothing in the report was not known before.
Pushing it to 2015 means the final report will come out in a less politicized climate.
This here was Obama’s statement at the time
Now, here is what we know so far. Evidence indicates that the plane was shot down by a surface-to-air missile that was launched from an area that is controlled by Russian-backed separatists inside of Ukraine.
Posted by: somebody | Sep 9 2014 12:30 utc | 118
here is how the reports being read in malaysia:
‘The report does not attribute blame or liability for the crash but a separate criminal investigation is being conducted by prosecutors in The Hague, she adds.
Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak welcomed the report, saying it “leads to the strong suspicion that a surface-to-air missile brought MH17 down”.
Meanwhile, the rebel leader of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic, Aleksandr Zakharchenko, insisted the separatists did not have the capability to shoot down the plane.’
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29119024
but does it really? claim is its missile ‘shrapnel’…..BBC naturally makes no mention of jets nearby….and the dutuch didnt visit the site to question locals…..so, conclusive report? no way Jose!
Posted by: brian | Sep 9 2014 12:34 utc | 119
BBC(#TrustmeIMBBC)
‘Instead, it talks about the plane being punctured by “high-velocity objects”, which is consistent with how the BUK missile system works (that’s the system many suspect was responsible). They don’t actually hit the target, they explode nearby and pepper it with shrapnel for maximum damage’
ahem….thats a leap….a machine gun is also consistent….would shapnel leave holes like that?
Posted by: brian | Sep 9 2014 12:36 utc | 120
@Demian
I still need to read report carefully between the lines to understand possible omissions or data left out in this first version. Was only civilian radar data used in report and was the air space up to level 320 out of bounds for the investigators?
As we discussed this before, the Su25 or Su27 can operate at 10 km, the Su25 needs to be up in the air waiting for the target plane to cross it’s path at that level. Ukraine has the capability to upgrade the Su25s, and the program was implemented. See the Georgian Su25 and upgrade with Elbit Systems avionics.
○ Can the Su-25 intercept and shoot down a 777?
@107
Just a thought.
I think I like the idea of getting rid of the legislative branch of govt. Think about have a vote directly from the American people on issues they want to see enacted.
I wonder how the American public would poll on these issues…
National one payer healthcare that is cost ceffective and efficient
Holding wall street execs accountable for criminality
Closing corporate tax loopholes
Repairing the US infrastructure
Serious retrofitting of the power grid to use clean energy
Ending the non stop resource wars
Free unfettered access to the internet
A responsible and truthful main stream media
Great public schools for all kids in the US
etc.., etc…
Yeah who needs the legislative branch the US citizens just will use truthful and accurate nationwide all inclusive poll data to bring issues to a vote, this would also apply to judicial appointments too. Then the US citizens will just vote on proposed actions that require everyone to vote. We could do it twice a year, matters of war and peace would require immediate attention. Think of all the money and heartache American citizens and the globe could save by abolishing the legislative branch of the US govt. I am sure someone already suggesting the.
Congress wants to let Obama start a war with ISIL justified by polling data so they won’t be on the record because its mid terms and 2016 presidential election is coming…even George W. BUSH got a vote for his lie filled escapade that is Iraq which was the PNAC calculated cluster f**k that spawned ISIL. Conress know this ISIL war is gonna be a continuation of the big bloody crap fest that is USG resource wars middle east. Its by design….
The preliminary report about MH17 includes something for everyone. Malaysians are relieved the report specifies no crew error and no technical fault with the 777. The statement and image about other aircraft neither confirms nor denies the presence of military or other unidentified aircraft. Penetration by external objects rules out a bomb which satisfies just about everybody. A “large number of high-energy objects” can be construed as bullets or as fragments from a missile.
Usually this sort of strategy results in nobody being happy rather than everybody. I’m still waiting for a plausible explanation of how a fragmentation warhead could cause heavy damage to the cockpit area and zero damage to all the rest of the 777 except for an impact near the end of the left wing.
Posted by: SingingSam | Sep 9 2014 13:51 utc | 124
How conspiracy theories are born:
Note the time of disappearance from this report:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-07/top-russia-expert-ukraine-joining-nato-would-provoke-nuclear-war scroll down to the piece above comment section and compare the time to that offered in the Dutch report of Air Traffic Control transcript times here:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-transcript-of-flights-last-moments-reveals-frantic-efforts-to-contact-disappeared-plane-9720715.html again scroll down to copy of the transcript with times of transmission. Seems there are a missing 4 minute 45 seconds between the two reports. There may be an innocent explanation as simple as FUBAR reporting; then maybe not.
Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Sep 9 2014 13:56 utc | 125
really @121: Yeah, I’d favor that idea, as long as the votes aren’t counted by e-voting machines.(hackable you know):)
Posted by: ben | Sep 9 2014 14:14 utc | 126
!21;Your list is an affront to the Zionists who have US under their thumb,as it would impair their enrichment at our expense.
Wapo poll says ;Bomb Isis.Serial liars lie serially,they probably polled their remaining Jewish readership.The Zionists want us all dead,or chained to their neolibcon capital schemes.
I saw a story about Argentina(AW)arresting an Israeli diplomat(spy)for a traffic violation.The cops said he was insolent.Really now.It was a Ynet source,and they said that an Israeli in Russia stopped an Israeli and told her,”good thing you aren’t an EU or American,we are targeting them.The Zionist sh*t stirrers never rest,as they divide and conquer a confused and malleable by terror fear populace.
Posted by: dahoit | Sep 9 2014 14:20 utc | 127
Russian statement from end of August
Antonov said Russia had established that a Ukrainian Su-25 military aircraft was in the vicinity of the Malaysian airliner.
“Where is the transcript of the recordings of conversations between the pilot of this plane and his command? How did a military aircraft come to be alongside a civilian one?
“If people are saying today that a rocket was fired from the ground towards that military plane, then I’d like to look that military pilot in the eye who used a civilian plane as cover, if of course that’s what happened,” Antonov said.
His comments appeared to allow for the possibility that rebels might have downed the airliner in a failed attempt to hit a Ukrainian military plane, although he said these were only “working versions” of what may have happened.
Antonov said his ministry was pressing for answers about the tragedy from the United States, Ukraine and European countries.
The blackbox data indeed were not published. Just some minutes of conversations with air traffic controls.
Posted by: somebody | Sep 9 2014 14:31 utc | 128
It’s about oil. Just reading up on Saudi production. It seems to have peaked. We need another Arabia to keep the party going. The only place to find that oil is Russia. The timing is now because fracking has made America self sufficient in oil for the first time in 40 years and they will be able to wage a major war without risk of being strangled by shortages. This window will only exist for a few years because of the short lifespan of fracked wells. By virtue of Russia’s proximity to the worlds reminding reserves they could choke off shipments quite easily. The window of opportunity will close soon. It’s now or never.
Posted by: Secret -Agent | Sep 9 2014 14:45 utc | 129
I was curious why the Dutch would undermine their own investigation, considering they bore the brunt of the fatalities. It seems to me that by releasing an ambiguous primary report that could could lead to blame falling on either party, they would be able to extract a ransom, for the lack of a better term, from Washington. I have no idea if this is how it works, but would be curious to see if some sort of investment takes place that ensures the next report casts the blame where Washington wants it.
I say this because if Washington had them completely in the bag, evidence could have been conjured to “definitively” cast blame on the Russians.
Posted by: IHaveLittleToAdd | Sep 9 2014 15:34 utc | 130
Bear-baiting is dangerous if you haven’t pulled the teeth.
http://presstv.com/detail/2014/09/09/378165/russia-jets-overfly-canadian-frigate/
Posted by: Ben Franklin | Sep 9 2014 15:49 utc | 131
@98 somebody quote “So, was Dnipro control civil or military?” don’t know..
@104 demian quote “the Dutch Safety Board report only mentions damage to “the forward fuselage and cockpit section of the aircraft”. i noted that too. i find that interesting, and not sure what to make of it.
here is link to the report for anyone who wants to examine it directly.
Posted by: james | Sep 9 2014 16:20 utc | 133
PAT BUCHANAN: Assad key player as Washington takes action on ISIS
“…The United States has to ask itself whom do we prefer in Damascus: Bashar al Assad or ISIS? For in the near term, these are the only realistic options.
Second, if ISIS is the main enemy, the principal enemy, the enemy with whom reconciliation is impossible, are we prepared to work not only with Assad, but his allies — Iran, Hezbollah, the PKK, and Vladimir Putin’s Russia for the defeat of ISIS?
But before President Obama takes any action in Syria, he should force Congress to vote both to authorize and to set the limits of such action…”
Posted by: james | Sep 9, 2014 12:20:14 PM | 131
They mention it here actually – from your link
2.4.3
Airspace restrictions
At the time of the occurrence, flight MH17 was flying through the Dnipropetrovs’k (UKDV)
FIR in the eastern part of the Ukraine. UkSATSE had issued NOTAMs that restricted
access to the airspace below FL320 in the southern part of the FIR due to hostilities
between armed groups and Ukrainian armed forces.
NOTAM A1383/14 established a Temporary Reserved Area from the surface to FL260
within its defined area in the east of Ukraine. The NOTAM was valid from 00.00 hrs on
1 July 2014 until 23.59 hrs on 28 July 2014. The text of the NOTAM states that state
aircraft of Ukraine were authorized and that Civil Aircraft need to have permission of the
headquarters of the Ukraine armed forces to fly in the area mentioned in the NOTAM
below FL260.
NOTAM A1492/14 established a Temporary Restricted Area from FL260 to FL320 within
an area covering the eastern part of the Temporary Reserved Area established by NOTAM
A1383/14. NOTAM A1492/14 was valid from 18.00 hrs on 14 July 2014 until 23.59 hrs on
14 August 2014. The restriction did not apply for flights of Ukraine state aircraft.
Posted by: somebody | Sep 9 2014 16:31 utc | 135
lulz quote “the cretinous and the bloviators” – seems to describe you perfectly!
Posted by: james | Sep 9 2014 16:32 utc | 136
If the Democratic party allows Obama to act unilaterally on taking military action against ISIL in Syria then they might as well not even field a presidential candidate for 2016. The US is about to embark on another decades long bloody escapade this time in Syria and beyond. The main goal in Syria is to get rid of Assad. To not have Congress authorize any and all military action against ISIL is a fool hearty endeavor by the democratic party. Because remember when the Dubya administration said it will take only weeks to defeat al qaeda in Iraq at the beginning. Well now we have govt. officials talking about defeating ISIL in 3 years as a guesstimate. If the Iraq estimate of defeating al qaeda in weeks is the benchmark, the ISIL war could last for decade upon decade upon decade….
The democratic party should be yelling for a congressional vote on any and all military action against ISIL.
(Imho..) It is clear that the pilots, or the pilot cabin, was targeted first, specifically to knock out any evidence on the cockpit tapes.
The total silence from the pilots, crew, no alarm signals, no explosion, is not credible.
That can’t have happened.
The pilots were massacred (there are, or rather were, photos on the intertubes from the ground, that will teach me to download everything) but there will have been horrific noise, screams, yells or other voice horror, etc. on that tape. Even if very brief, like 30 seconds. Clearly showing some ‘attack’ some ‘totally unexpected event’ with maybe some brief despair about what was seen/experienced/supposed. (There might even be some more remarks previous.)
The PTB obviously prefer to keep that all back (sidebar: so what use are the black boxes? Or any analytic tracking measures? Airline safety? Huh?) and have the plane just be ‘regular’ on its trajectory etc. and then supremely ‘silent’ and just ‘disapeared.’
My guess is that they argued about what to reveal or not (before the actual enquiry took place, as I said, these decsions have to be taken upsteam, and it takes like 30 mins. to listen to this stuff) and option zero (forget about it) won out.
Why? A) it was revealing of an air-to-air attack, so had to be hidden at all costs, b) nothing was to be gained from publishing conjectures following such muddy ‘data’, c) no clear / firm decisions at the top level were taken, imposed blandness won out. Or any combination of these.
I was curious why the Dutch would undermine their own investigation, considering they bore the brunt of the fatalities.
The Netherlands, with one other country in Europe, are the very staunchest supporters of the Deep US State. 100% allegiance, since WW2, masked, in their case, with clogs, windmills, social re-distribution and pot-smoking.
Posted by: Noirette | Sep 9 2014 20:04 utc | 138
I trace the origins of the trouble between the US & Iraq back to the US decision to feed Saddam Hoessein false information (in 1979 & 1980) about the perceived weakness of the iranian military.
The US was outraged the iranians chased away the Shah of Persia in 1979.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/iran-iraq.htm
Posted by: Willy2 | Sep 9 2014 20:45 utc | 139
Oldie but interesting on MH plane:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKZojhBhJrc
Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 9 2014 20:51 utc | 140
@Noirette #138:
I agree with all your points. I’m embarrassed that I was naive enough to think that the investigators would not lie about the cockpit voice recording. It does look with the information we have now that no missile of any kind was used; what took the plane down was machine gun/cannon fire to the cockpit, which killed the pilots. What broke up the plane in the air was aerodynamic forces resulting from uncontrolled flight of the plane. While it is possible that the cockpit voice recorder stopped functioning immediately after fire was opened, I agree with you that this is highly unlikely. The black boxes could have very well continued to function until the moment the plane broke apart.
Hopefully some pilots’ blogs will have something to say about this. That all of the audio from the cockpit voice recorder was not released at the same time as the preliminary report is a dead giveaway, imo. Why not release it, if there is nothing unusual in it?
How little attention the Western press is giving to the release of the report is telling.
Russian response to MH17 report muted
As if the Western response isn’t muted. Sure, the Russian response is muted: the report supports the Russian version of events more than it does the junta/US version.
So, I think we can now safely call this a botched false flag.
http://famagusta-gazette.com/air-strikes-on-syria-not-coordinated-with-legitimate-authorities-will-escal-p25370-69.htm
Russian Foreign minister Lavrov speaks on Syria.
@Noirette #38:
The Netherlands, with one other country in Europe, are the very staunchest supporters of the Deep US State.
It’s interesting that the two countries that had the status of hegemon before the US did were the Netherlands and England. So their affinity for the Empire probably comes from their history of once having held its place.
But to be fair to the Dutch, it was the British who extracted/falsified data from the black boxes. The British do that kind of thing without blinking an eye. (The Dutch were accessories, however, since everyone expected the British to tamper with the data, and yet the Dutch handed the black boxes over to them.)
‘Posted by: Demian | Sep 9, 2014 5:39:37 PM | 143
all the more reason to cheer on the scottish independence vote come 18 sept
Posted by: brian | Sep 9 2014 21:56 utc | 144
Posted by: Demian | Sep 9, 2014 5:12:00 PM | 141
its a no brainer that black boxes are very well protected and meant to survive a lot of stuff:
‘Currently, EUROCAE specifies that a recorder must be able to withstand an acceleration of 3400 g (33 km/s²) for 6.5 milliseconds. This is roughly equivalent to an impact velocity of 270 knots (310 mph) and a deceleration or crushing distance of 450 cm. Additionally, there are requirements for penetration resistance, static crush, high and low temperature fires, deep sea pressure, sea water immersion, and fluid immersion.’
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_recorder#Specifications
note the ‘requirements for penetration resistance’ !
so its highly unlikely random fragmentation would damage them…even bullets should bounce off them!
Posted by: brian | Sep 9 2014 22:01 utc | 145
@Oui:
Are there a significant number of Christian Zionists in the Netherlands? Because according to Thierry Meyssan, Anglo-American imperialism is intertwined with Zionism.
‘Since the last words of the MH25 crew have now been released, based on the flight recorders, we now know that the crew did not inform ATC that they had been hit. I think we can rule out from that that an air-to-air missile was used. If it were, the crew would have had time to inform ATC that MH17 was in trouble.
Posted by: Demian | Sep 9, 2014 7:16:04 AM | 112
you dont seriously believe the dutch do you? HAVE the last words been released? whos says so?
Posted by: brian | Sep 9 2014 22:13 utc | 148
Posted by: somebody | Sep 9, 2014 10:31:03 AM | 128
people will notice theres no mention of the interceptor in the dutch report…how do these guys go home and face their families?! knowing their lies are helping dead dutch roll in their graves
Posted by: brian | Sep 9 2014 22:15 utc | 149
McClatchy has sunk to the lowest of the low:
Best evidence Russians are in Ukraine? How good separatist fighters are
In other words, anglophone media have decided that they don’t need any evidence at all in order to “report” that Russian army units are in Novorossia.
Time: Dutch report inconclusive because crash site was looted by Russian barbarians
To its credit, Time mentions this:
the wording of the 34-page report [in pdf format here] was also vague enough to leave room for one of the more common theories among the rebel fighters in eastern Ukraine. Russian President Vladimir Putin blamed the disaster on the Ukrainian government on the night of the crash, and in the days that followed, some of the separatists claimed in interviews with TIME that a Ukrainian fighter jet had, for some reason, intercepted the airliner and sprayed it with chain-gun fire. As evidence, they pointed to the many small holes in the fuselage, suggesting that these looked like the work of a machine gun shooting another type of high-energy object – bullets.
I have not seen any other story in the Western media mention that the Dutch report is consistent with the Russian version of events.
Time repeats the lie that rebels impeded investigators’ access to the crash site. In actuality, the rebels were very frustrated that the investigators remained in Kiev for over a week, instead of starting their investigation. If the investigators were serious, they would have avoided Kiev entirely and flown to Rostov (in Russia), from where they could have gone to the crash site without having to deal with any military checkpoints or other Ukie obstruction. That they flew to Kiev instead of Rostov shows that the investigation is determined by political concerns, instead of a concern of finding out what happened.
@151 “This could be consistent with the West’s prevailing theory of what brought down the plane” On the other hand it could not. Anybody fancy a beer?
Posted by: dh | Sep 10 2014 0:04 utc | 152
These governments have been lying to the public for how long – and they are still given credibility? Whatever happened to the observation: ‘How can you tell it’s a lie? – Their lips were moving’?
BBC is still flogging their Thud rockets, the very same ones that leave a massive smoke column most of the way to their target – no witness reported such trails from earth to sky although those same witnesses recounted hearing explosions and the plane breaking up in a fireball. The public will be getting an intense publicity campaign until the final report is released at which time the public’s mind (presumption of artifacts seldom encountered) will be so filled and confused as to fact, the public cannot distinguish the real from manufactured fictions, that is those few (three maybe?) who retain any memory at all. So why not keep on recounting the blizzard of false, discounted drivel that has already been disproved, makes the effectiveness of your governments so much easier when the time comes, as it will.
Posted by: Formerly T-Bear | Sep 10 2014 1:55 utc | 153
“The journalist was filmed approaching Mr Putin in an undisclosed location on Russian television. He said: “I’d like to ask you a question about the war, sir. I’m sorry, sir, the killings in the Ukraine, thousands of dead, Ukrainians, Russian, Malaysians, British, Dutch… Do you regret the killings in Ukraine?”
Scumbag – “Can you confirm you have you stopped beating your wife?”
How did this idiot get close to Putin anyway? The Russian Secret Service ought to be a bit more careful, the west would ‘Massoud’ him in an instant if they could.
Posted by: guest77 | Sep 10 2014 2:10 utc | 154
These articles projecting onto Russia what Western governments and media do to the citizens of Western countries just keep coming:
Atlantic: Russia and the Menace of Unreality
The comments are pitiful. Here’s an example:
Agreed. However, the subversion of the Russian or Chinese control of all media will come from within these countries. For instance, after the Russian supported Ukrainian separatists shot down MH 17, they boasted about it on social media without knowing they shot down a commercial airliner. When this became obvious, they tried to delete the post but it was too late – and that attack clearly showed increased Russia involvement in the war.
So yes, RT may have sleek production values and sexy reporters that tell bold face lies, however, the truth has a way of slipping out. btw, some of those sexy reporters have quit – on air – to protest the lies they’re asked to tell.
The rebels “boasting” about shooting down MH17 was obviously black propaganda:
Happen to be a ‘rebel’ commander with a facebook page? Recently in stark disbelief its everywhere in western media your page showed you claiming credit for shooting down a civilian aircraft and the posting was almost immediately deleted, before you ever saw it? And you hadn’t even logged in? To quote a 1960s Black comedian from the era of vinyl records, ‘you have just been fugged‘ (by GCHQ or NSA, your choice.)
Absolute hegemonic insanity…
http://m.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/09/10/redrawing-map-russia-federation-partition-russia-after-world-war-iii.html
Here’s a tantalizing bit of news
http://www.vzgliad.ru/news/2014/9/10/704853.html
h/t yalensis@Kremlin Stooge “Malaysia’s Defense Minister Hishammuddin Hussein has just unexpectedly arrived in Moscow, to meet with Medvedev, Lavrov, Shoigu, and others.
This has something to do with the MH-17 matter.”
Posted by: ruralito | Sep 10 2014 3:01 utc | 157
@155 demian – article heading ought to say “Peter Pomerantsev, or The Atlantic and the Menace of Unreality”.. it is funny how peter Pinocchio cites greenwald and the kremlin as operating in the same framework, while supporting edward snowden in the same sentence, lol.. jsore/lulz would enjoy reading that line!
mr pp got the gig as honourable stenographer for saying up is down and down is up in a publication owned david g. bradley… “Politically, Bradley considers himself a centrist, although he has also described himself as “a neocon guy” who was “dead certain about the rightness” of invading Iraq.” you know you are really getting an honest appraisal on how propaganda works from insightful leadership types like these!
Posted by: james | Sep 10 2014 3:20 utc | 158
@156 – two gems:
Moreover, although the Islamic State is brutal, its cruelty is not unique in the region. Syrian President Bashar al Assad and others may not have killed Americans or uploaded killings to YouTube, but their history of ghastly acts is comparable. Finally, the Islamic State — engaged in war with everyone around it — is much less dangerous to the United States than a small group with time on its hands, planning an attack. In any event, if the Islamic State did not exist, the threat to the United States from jihadist groups in Yemen or Libya or somewhere inside the United States would remain.
Building up ISIS and Assad as a similar threat… “oh, you may not have seen or heard about Assad doing things like this but… he’s just as bad as ISIS”
And…
In the first place, is it really a problem for the United States? The American interest is not stability but the existence of a dynamic balance of power in which all players are effectively paralyzed so that no one who would threaten the United States emerges. The Islamic State had real successes at first, but the balance of power with the Kurds and Shia has limited its expansion, and tensions within the Sunni community diverted its attention. Certainly there is the danger of intercontinental terrorism, and U.S. intelligence should be active in identifying and destroying these threats.
So… are we to believe that the United States must destabilize the Denmark sized tract of desert in perpetuity so that it doesn’t become “a Threat”™? I mean, it is certainly a step a head in honesty when it says the US interest is a “dynamic balance of power” (meaning, we can assume, a see-sawing region of liquid chaos?) but it’s still a bit much.
You also have to like “Certainly there is the danger of intercontinental terrorism”. Certainly! The author could have followed with “But they usually kill civilians and I don’t even like watching marathons, so probably I…I mean WE…should be fine. So long as the navy doesn’t shoot another tomahawk at the Pentagon when I’m transcribing a press conference or anything..”
Posted by: guest77 | Sep 10 2014 3:42 utc | 159
Posted by: Demian | Sep 9, 2014 7:02:19 PM | 150
‘evidence’ has now become popular
Posted by: brian | Sep 10 2014 4:01 utc | 160
@really #156:
That’s another reason why it would be nice if the Scots voted for independence. Let the English taste their own medicine.
@ruralito #157:
Tantalizing indeed. The Malaysian P.M. said today that MH17 was probably downed by a surface-to-air mission, but that would must investigate further so that one can be certain that that was the case.
Posted by: guest77 | Sep 9, 2014 10:10:46 PM | 154
is this a referecce to the prostitute Sweeney? he whos ‘eyewitnesses’ of russians shooting down MH17 sound nice…if only they actually existed. Sweeney is to british journalism what Cameron is to the VOTE NO on Scottish Independence
Posted by: brian | Sep 10 2014 4:04 utc | 162
So much talk about Malaysia, it’s worth noting their long colonial insurgency that the Communists fought there against the British.
That’s where the intelligence concept of the civilian “mailbox” was invented- the idea that the British Intelligence officers would place mailboxes in villages with the public purpose of villagers leaving them notes about the insurgents and other concerns. A sort of non-electronic Twitter, if you will (all of which we know goes straight to the intelligence services anyway).
The Wikipedia article on “Malaysian History” is a doozy: “In the Peninsula, the Malayan Communist Party took up arms against the British. A tough military response was needed to end the insurgency”
“Tough”. Like beheadings and massacres and the advent of the “strategic hamlet” – formerly known as the concentration camp.
It was known as the Malay “Emergency” because:
“The rubber plantations and tin mining industries had pushed for the use of the term “emergency” since their losses would not have been covered by Lloyd’s insurers if it had been termed a ‘war’.”
“The Emergency”. Sort of like Americans call their murder sprees “conflicts” so that they don’t have to A) ask for congressional approval or B) admit to losing them.
Some 8,000 Communist guerrillas held down a British army of 40,000 plus 310,000 home guards and police for about 14 years, and cost the Empire and the colonial capitalists and compradores $800,000,000 dollars…pretty good for the 1950’s.
Posted by: guest77 | Sep 10 2014 4:09 utc | 163
@brian – Yes! thanks for posting that earlier. What a bum he is.
Posted by: guest77 | Sep 10 2014 4:11 utc | 164
Russian Spring
09/09/2014-12:22
Review of military developments in Novorossia for 09/08/2014: the “fierce” cease of fire stayed on
Active redeployment of subdivisions of Ukrainian army was observed. It has become clear the Ukrainian side employs so called armistice to facilitate next offensive on positions of the army of Novorossia. It is assumed the Ukrainian military considers splitting the army of Novorossia in three caldrons: South – near Mariupol`, North – Lugansk, and Central – Donetsk.
Retreating from settlements deep in Novorossia, the Ukrainian army consolidates a great force in areas of Schast`ye (Lugansk) and Debal`tsevo (Donetsk).
On south direction the Ukranian tanks blasted and partially destroyed a dam of Pavlopol`skiy reservoir. The bridge over the dam had been smashed entirely. A probable goal of this sabotage was prevention of attacks on Mariupol`.
The restoration work of water and electricity supply has begun in Donetsk. However certain suburbs are still shelled by the Ukrainian punitive troops. Explosions and sounds of combat intensified in the area of Donetsk airport, where surrounded Ukrainian troops attempted to wrest way out.
Three days as calm has descended on Lugansk.
…
Two “Hercules” planes landed in Khar`kov airport. Unloaded were two rocket launch systems “LAROM” (Romania), one “Teruel-3” (Spain) and great quantity of ammunition to them. The systems drove themselves towards Starobelsk taking a detour road.
Posted by: Fete | Sep 10 2014 4:16 utc | 165
Folks —
Read earlier today the New Straits Times acc’t. I can’t find the earlier posting of the RT news brief suggesting, which reports PM’s Razak & Abbot suggesting “conclusive” evidence of the cause. But here’s a link to the NST — http://www.nst.com.my/node/31893. No explosion on the CVR, nothing on the cause not already know “high energy objects” struck the plane. Source is not Malaysian intelligence, but Dutch safety board. No final report ’til next July.
Reports last ATC communication, very brief, ends suddenly. It suggests Dutch either have the tapes, or just the always-reliable Kiev regime’s account of it. No mention of other communications. Notes other civil planes in the area, no mention of military.
If any evidence at all of Novorossiyan involvement, you’d expect more publicity. Or a quicker release of the final report.
Earlier today, right up front, now buried in Nation section. That’s there wind doesn’t matter, seems to be no sail.
To dh @ 152, I’ll have a scotch, beer chaser, please. “To Truth!”
Posted by: rufus magister | Sep 10 2014 4:21 utc | 166
I don’t know if anyone posted this but – a seriously intense animated piece on why the US is seeking war in Europe (in Russian): http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article39628.htm
Posted by: guest77 | Sep 10 2014 4:22 utc | 167
also- damn good crosstalk where the guests actually make progress towards a common understanding and expose hidden truths instead of bickering mindlessly like one sees on Garbage CNN.
http://www.vineyardsaker.blogspot.mx/2014/09/crosstalk-reinventing-nato.html
I’d be interested in hearing peoples reactions…
Posted by: guest77 | Sep 10 2014 5:03 utc | 168
…
That they flew to Kiev instead of Rostov shows that the investigation is determined by political concerns, instead of a concern of finding out what happened.
Posted by: Demian | Sep 9, 2014 7:35:07 PM | 151
I listen to BBC World News a lot to keep up with the latest bs. Its truth filter developed a glitch soon after MH17 went down. In the rush to be ‘first with the news’, one bulletin reported that the pro-Russia rebels had recovered the black boxes “and handed them to Malaysian investigators.”
But only one, and only once…
If that report was true, then the Malaysians must be feeling VERY pissed about being comprehensively gulled twice in quick succession by Westerners pretending to be helpful.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 10 2014 5:26 utc | 169
‘Growing irritation’ over MH17 investigation – Stuff.co.nz
The Dutch are worried that Australia and Malaysia are losing patience and faith in its investigations into the crash of flight MH17, according to a local media report.
-snip- here’s the wheat amongst the chaff …
A Dutch source told Fairfax there was a perception of “growing irritation among Malaysian and Australian diplomats about the passive position of the Dutch”.
He said Australia and Malaysia were getting “very impatient” with the Europeans’ insistence of negotiating access to the crash site through Kiev rather than directly with the separatist rebels that control the site.
From an early stage Malaysia has kept a separate line of communication open to the rebels – most notably when they negotiated the return of the black box flight recorder, and sent a secret team into Donetsk to collect it…
Posted by: Outraged | Sep 10 2014 9:06 utc | 170
Malaysia and Australia are not part of NATO, the Netherlands are …
From July 14, just before the crash
Ukraine bolsters air defences with russian radars
In fact, the radars proved their worth in the 2008 conflict in the former Soviet republic of Georgia. The systems helped Georgian air defense units to shoot down several Russian warplanes during that campaign and the Ukrainians are now tapping similar equipment to guard against aerial attacks.
The use of Soviet era/Russian type weapons
By their clandestine nature, Ukrainian arms deliveries to the Syrian rebels resemble Ukrainian arms supplied to the Croatian army and Kosovo Albanian separatists in the 1990s as part of covert operations supported at the time by the United States. More recently, in 2011–2012, the US and Germany respectively purchased 144,000 and 54,000 Ukrainian small arms for training purposes (Gorshenin Weekly, May 14). These could be meant for covert operations, the Soviet weapons providing the US with deniability as to the supplier. A similar strategy was used in the 1980s by the US in Afghanistan when it supplied Soviet weapons—captured by Israel in Lebanon and sent through Pakistan—to the anti-Soviet Mujahedeen.
Ukraine is an asymetric war testing ground.
Posted by: somebody | Sep 10 2014 9:31 utc | 171
http://en.ria.ru/authors/20140828/192431312/Brzezinski-Family-Business–Cold-War.html
Cold War 2.0 pimps and madam.
From Australia -Dutch concerned that Australia and Malaysia losing faith in Netherlands’ MH17 inquiry
He said Australia and Malaysia were getting “very impatient” with the Europeans’ insistence of negotiating access to the crash site through Kiev rather than directly with the separatist rebels that control the site.
From an early stage Malaysia has kept a separate line of communication open to the rebels – most notably when they negotiated the return of the black box flight recorder, and sent a secret team into Donetsk to collect it.
Posted by: somebody | Sep 10 2014 11:07 utc | 173
The Malayan insurgency was ethnic far more than it was Communist.
Posted by: c1ue | Sep 10 2014 11:22 utc | 174
Russia willing to help Malaysia with probe into MH17
Posted by: somebody | Sep 10 2014 11:27 utc | 175
What does this show? Especially since only the people in the front have these “objects” inside them?
http://rt.com/news/line/2014-09-10/#70356
Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 10 2014 15:23 utc | 176
One thing to watch about MH17 is the compensation that will be paid.
For 9/11 (see Ken Rogoff, compensation, google with dates way back when..) Washington paid the families of victims large or fair, in any case acceptable to them, amounts.
Nobdody else – airlines, security, insurance cos, (some personal insurance may have been paid) local / Fed Gvmt, airports, police, some other country etc. such as Saudi Arabia (well that is still churning thru the courts but it is of no account) stepped up to the plate, forced or voluntary.
That is because no official – following a court of law decision, etc. – culprits have ever been designated, so there was nobody to make claims to. Washington paid everyone (including big cos. but that is another story) off, and for MH17 a similar scenario will unfold.
Dutch families haven’t made it to the MSM headlines and seem very passive…
Posted by: Noirette | Sep 10 2014 16:18 utc | 177
Posted by: Noirette | Sep 10, 2014 12:18:34 PM | 177
9/11 compensation protected the airlines according to Wikipedia, whose security clearly had not been enough – I understand you still can go to the cockpit unhindered from the passenger seats.
Malaysia Airlines will face huge compensation claims
“Malaysia Airlines will be liable unless it can prove it took all necessary measures to avoid this loss,” he told news.com.au.
“I do not believe Malaysia Airlines can meet this burden since it flew over a dangerous area.
Malaysian Airlines is majority state owned, the state now buys out minority shares.
The only chance Malaysia has not to pay huge compensation is to find a state culprit. So if they pursue this they must be confident a state culprit can be found.
Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 10, 2014 11:23:56 AM | 176
It means in all likelyhood that it is very easy to decide which weapons system was used. It is possible that this is for the criminal investigation, not the Dutch safety board. But had they wanted to they could have analysed this a long time ago.
The prosecution presumably is national. Malaysia says they have intelligence report but need evidence therefore want to return to the crash site before winter.
Posted by: somebody | Sep 10 2014 17:42 utc | 178
Posted by: Noirette | Sep 10, 2014 12:18:34 PM | 177
You might like this from Sept 8, 2014.
MH17 – Caught in the Crossfire
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2014/09/08/4080955.htm
The doco runs for circa 45 mins. At the bottom of the intro page there is a link to a full transcript of the narrative and another to a Background file. I’ve only skimmed it so far but it doesn’t beat around the bush in making clear that the Ukrainian Army is shelling civilians. It also points out that MH17 crashed in ‘rebel held’ territory and the Uke Army decided to embark on a military assault on ‘rebel’ positions which had the (happily coincidental?) effect of scaring the investigators away.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 10 2014 17:55 utc | 179
Ceasefire opinions at Saker’s:
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/09/of-facts-opinion-and-mis-interpretations.html
Several points:
“1) The plan was designed to create friction inside NATO. That worked.”
Maybe, but ceasefire also should have prevented new sanctions, it didnt. And its good, maybe next time Russia wont play with Novorossia’s interests like that.
“2) The plan was designed to prevent changes on the ground. That worked.”
Yeah, it prevented NAF from winning more ground. Now they’ll have to do it anyway, just against much worse odds and with way more bloodshed, thats why so many are upset. Putin cares about Russia’s interests, NOT Novorossia’s, its secondary to Russia. Notice I’m not talking about “going to Kiev” or any such nonsense, but Russia definitely played into Ukies hands.
I also absolutely reject the notion of some bloggers that Russia had to sabotage NAF advancement to “prevent them from overextending themselves.” Are NAF leadership incompetent idiots? I can safely assume they arent, therefore this “argument” goes out of the window, and its mainly used by Putin groupies to whitewash what Russia did.
Saker thinks that attacking Mariupol is a mistake and if NAF withdraws it would mean he is right. Nope. NAF might have to withdraw precisely because of ceasefire Mariupol was NOT taken, thus with JRF renewed attack NAF would be between a hammer and a forge now.
Also some weirdly assume NAF would be in a “cauldron” if they have taken Mariupol and Junta’s counter-offense cut them off. Two reasons – Russia’s border is right there, plus there is a seaport. There is nothing junta can do to “starve out” NAF from Mariupol. Food, gas, weapons would flow in required quantities. Even militias could move in and out as needed, just not in armoured columns.
Therefore there is not many ‘potential negatives’ of taking Mariupol, but a LOT of negatives by NOT taking it.
Posted by: Harry | Sep 10 2014 18:06 utc | 180
Today,interestingly,their was almost no talk of MH17.Something is up.The way they are letting this fester till next year says that the facts don’t fit the MSM and CIA scenario.
Posted by: dahoit | Sep 10 2014 18:23 utc | 181
What about those military planes Russians said were close to the MH plane?
Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 10 2014 18:59 utc | 182
thanks guys for the articles / links about MH17 compensation. we will see.
Posted by: Noirette | Sep 10 2014 19:48 utc | 183
Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 10, 2014 2:59:11 PM | 182
Primary Surveillance Radar received from Russia. Secondary surveillance, automatic dependent surveillance (presumably from Ukraine, possibly both)
Analyses of surveillance data is ongoing. According to information from Ukraine three other commercial airplanes were in the area at the time of the disappearance.
Expect more next year.
Posted by: somebody | Sep 10 2014 20:09 utc | 184
Sergey Lavrov: Throwing Russia off balance is ultimate aim
Some partners in the West – not all of them – have been trying to use the deep crisis of Ukrainian statehood for the purpose of “containing” Russia, for isolating us, and thereby tightening their looser grip on the international system. The world is changing, the share of the United States and Europe in the global GDP is shrinking, there have emerged new centers of economic growth and financial power, whose political influence has been soaring accordingly. As concerns economy, there seems to be growing awareness of that. The G20 group has been created. In 2010 the G20 made a decision to reform the International Monetary Fund to redistribute quotas from the Western countries so that new, growing economies can receive a little bit more quotas. Then the crisis began to ease somewhat and the United States and the European Union these days are in no mood to stand by those arrangements. Now they are determined to retain positions within the IMF that are by no means proportionate to their real economic potential in the world. A really tough struggle is underway for keeping unchanged the state of affairs in which the Western civilization determines the shape of the world order. This is a faulty policy with no chances to succeed, objective processes are developing in opposite direction. The world is getting really polycentric. China, India, Brazil, the ASEAN countries, Latin America and, lastly, Africa – a continent with the richest natural resources – all begin to realize their real significance for world politics. There will be no stopping this trend. True, it can be resisted, and such attempts are being made, but it is really hard to go against the stream. This is the cause of many crises.
Lavrov made the same points in a speech a couple of weeks ago. It is refreshing to see an official state the reasoning behind his country’s policy so cogently and truthfully. But I have not seen this view of the RF reported anywhere in the Angleophone press: it hurts the Anglo sense of entitlement too much.
Somehow, I do not think that the NY Times is in a mood to publish an op-ed by Lavrov, the way it published an op-ed by Putin a year ago. But at least German newspapers should be explaining this.
To Mike Maloney @ 3
Just caught the name of Samir Amin, big fan of his since I read “Eurocentrism” many years ago, I believe I’ve seen more recent stuff at Monthly Review and I believe at Counterpunch as well.
For what it’s worth, no prob. recommending it sight unseen. Will definitely read soonest, off on a mission of mercy (feeding stray, feral cats at present day job’s old location).
Have been trying to avoid too much trollfeed of late. Esp. as I think CDH is improving in tone and quality. Let’s hope there’s no backsliding.
Posted by: rufus magister | Sep 11 2014 0:16 utc | 186
@185 demian. thanks for sharing that perspective. i agree with your analysis as well. it would be helpful for the msm to communicate this, but that would alter it’s purpose of leaving out very important details at work in the changing environment of the planet circa 2014, that didn’t exist to the same degree previously.. better to keep people in the dark about these developments and paint russia out as a monster… that is the state of affairs with the msm which begs the obvious question ‘is this intentional’? i think it is..
Posted by: james | Sep 11 2014 0:55 utc | 187
nsnbc: DSB Report: Malaysia Airlines MH17 Probably Shot Down – Coverup Continues
nsnbc has contacted the Dutch Safety Board, Ukrainian Authorities, the Russian Foreign Ministry, the US State Department, the US Department of Defense. None provided access to evidence or alleged evidence for independent verification.
Regardless who or what caused the tragic death of 298 people and the loss suffered by their loved ones, nsnbc maintains unequivocally, that independent media must be granted full and unimpeded access to the CSV files from the flight data recorder, the recordings from the cockpit voice recorder, the raw data from all implicated radar stations, the recordings from all air traffic controllers who communicated with the plane or about the plane, for independent analysis.
Vitaliy Churkin: Full-fledged international probe into Malaysian jet crash in Ukraine not held yet
Folks —
Let me add another one to everyone’s reading list. Plenty of interesting items above on MH17, but this will repay the effort.
Just spotted at my regular visit to “Counterpunch,” the estimable Paul Craig Roberts. This man regularly “throws it down”. All the more amazing, he’s a former official at Treasury and was an editor at the “Wall St. Journal”. If you are not reading him regularly, you should be (IMHO).
See his Why the Ukrainian Crisis Remains Unresolved,.
A couple of shots, towards the beginning and end:
“The right-wing Kiev militias, whose members often wear nazi insignias, are not under Kiev’s complete control. These militias can easily violate the cease fire, and there are already reports of violations. Moreover the billionaire oligarch that Washington has installed in Kiev as president of Ukraine will violate the ceasefire on Washington’s orders, unless, of course, Putin has put the fear of God in him….
“The Russian response to this audacity should be to turn off the gas in the winter without warning. All of it. As Putin’s interest is to separate Europe from Washington’s control, this would do it. All of East and West Europe and Ukraine would be on their knees in Moscow begging for the energy to be turned back on. All Putin would have to say is “only non-NATO members get gas.
“That would bring an end to Washington’s assault on Russia.”
Step up to the bar, and pour the rest of the bottle, if you would.
Raise your glasses, to P.C. Roberts. To him – and to you all – “Live long and prosper.”
Posted by: rufus magister | Sep 11 2014 2:29 utc | 189
Russian Spring
09/10/2014-23:57
The night was marked by yet one more attempt of the Donetsk airport contingent of punitive troops to break free.
The troops resented by shelling suburb Putilovskiy (either incendiary or “chandelier” – to scare civillians – ammunition, exactly unknown). In the aftermath of shelling suburb Kiyevskiy one resident was wounded.
In suburb Makeyevka the occupants periodically clashed with the defenders of the city.
At day time city Gorlovka was shelled (from Dzerzhinsk). The combatant artillery blasted back at the firing emplacements.
Along the day shelled were Khartsizsk, Zugres, Konstantinovka…, fortunately, without casualties. Artillery bombardment of Debal`tsevo left three residents wounded.
Under auspices of the armistice the Ukrainian forces vainly try to enter Yasinovataya.
In settlement Yelenovka National Guard gunned down their kin of 30 men (either because they attempted to desert or to switch sides).
Ukrainian rocket launch systems “Grad” practically liquidated an indeed Ukrainian column of reinforcement traveling toward Mariupol`.
Ukrainian troops have retreated from Kulikovo (Novoazovsk), Krasnoarmeysk (Slavyansk).
In overall, the front line did not change; active military operations were not observed.
Consolidating punitive reserves continues.
Posted by: Fete | Sep 11 2014 3:41 utc | 190
Our friend Shaun from the Guardian has discovered that there are neo-Nazis fighting on the junta’s side:
Azov fighters are Ukraine’s greatest weapon and may be its greatest threat
It turns out that there is indeed such a thing as Russian fascists. But if they are involved in the Ukrainian civil war, they fight on the side of the fascist junta:
The battalion even has a Russian volunteer, a 30-year-old from St Petersburg who refused to give his name. He said he views many of the Russian rebel commanders positively, especially Igor Strelkov, a former FSB officer who has a passion for military re-enactments and appears to see himself as a tsarist officer. He “wants to resurrect a great Russia, said the volunteer; but Strelkov is “only a pawn in Putin’s game,” he said, and he hoped that Russia would some time have a “nationalist, violent Maidan” of its own.
I really don’t see how a Russian can be so fucked up that he would fight with fascists against Russians.
For Denk: One more CIA plane crash with present day ramifications –
Barroso Represents Just Another Fake Portuguese Socialist
During the 1960s and 70s, the CIA infiltrated a number of «Maoist» and Trotskyist groups in Western Europe in order to divide the left in order to suppress it with right-wing governments. Barosso served his masters in Langley, Virginia well after the 1974 «Carnation Revolution» in Portugal that ousted the «Second Republic» fascist military regime.
Hours after the December 4, 1980 fatal crash of the Cessna 421 aircraft that was carrying leftist-oriented Prime Minister Francisco Sá Carneiro, his wife Snu Abecassis, and his Defense Minister from Lisbon to an election campaign rally in Porto, Barosso, sensing the political vacuum created in Sá Carneiro’s Social Democratic Party and the Democratic Alliance coalition of which it was a member, renounced his membership in the Maoist PCTP/MRPP. Barosso joined the Social Democrats. Overnight, Barosso, the consummate opportunist, changed his political stripes from «Maoist» to a center-right and pro-business advocate for NATO and a united Europe. In the succeeding years, Barosso fought successfully to transform the center-left Social Democrats into the right-wing, pro-NATO, and pro-European Union political party that it is today.
After a Portuguese government investigation in 1995 determined that Sá Carneiro’s plane had been sabotaged, in what became known as the «Camarate Affair,» a 2004 Portuguese parliamentary inquiry into the crash of the Cessna concluded that there was ample evidence that a bomb had been placed on the plane prior to take off from Lisbon. Almost as if he had foreknowledge of what would befall Prime Minister Sá Carneiro, Barosso immediately joined Barosso’s Social Democrats before the plane’s wreckage was cleared and Sá Carneiro and his entourage were buried. A former CIA contractor named Francisco Farinha Simões came forward in 2012 to reveal that it was he who received orders from CIA deputy director and former U.S. ambassador to Portugal Frank Carlucci and other CIA agents in Lisbon to place a bomb on Sá Carneiro’s aircraft. Simões also revealed that in 1980 he met with Henry Kissinger to plan for the assassination of Sá Carneiro, who was described by the Americans as «no friend» of the United States. Later, Carlucci, who would become Secretary of Defense, deputy CIA director, and national security adviser, became the chairman of the Bush family-connected Carlyle Group. Simões also revealed that Carlucci, who played an important role in the 1961 assassination of Congolese former Prime Minister Patrice Lumumba, said that the CIA’s designated next Prime Minister of Portugal was Socialist Party leader Mario Soares. In 1975, Soares, another former Portuguese «Communist,» immediately moved to ensure the purge of Communist ministers from the first post-revolution leftist government of General Vasco dos Santos Gonçalves.
Gonçalves’s policy of bank nationalization was seen as an existential threat to the robber barons of London and Wall Street. Soares became Prime Minister in 1976 and began moving Portugal into the pro-Europe and pro-NATO camp.
Soares, like Barosso, was another faux leftist on the CIA’s payroll. The CIA- and Israel-influenced Wikipedia has predictably called any suspicion that foul play was involved in the crash of Sá Carneiro’s plane a «conspiracy theory,» the throw-away term relied upon by neo-conservatives and neo-fascists who are bereft of facts.
How many are we up to now?
For Rufus Magister (Ludi) re. our previous discussion on the importance of conspiracies in understanding world events:
Michael Parenti on conspiracy theories and the left wing paranoia about them
From Dirty Truths by Michael Parenti (1996, City Lights Books) (Pages 172 – 191)
Almost as an article of faith, some individuals believe that conspiracies are either kooky fantasies or unimportant aberrations. To be sure, wacko conspiracy theories do exist. There are people who believe that the United States has been invaded by a secret United Nations army equipped with black helicopters, or that the country is secretly controlled by Jews or gays or feminists or black nationalists or communists or extraterrestrial aliens. But it does not logically follow that all conspiracies are imaginary…
When pressed on the matter, left critics like Cockburn and Chomsky allow that some conspiracies do exist but they usually are of minor importance, a distraction from the real problems of institutional and structural power. A structural analysis, as I understand it, maintains that events are determined by the larger configurations of power and interest and not by the whims of happenstance or the connivance of a few incidental political actors. There is no denying that larger structural trends impose limits on policy and exert strong pressures on leaders. But this does not mean that all important policy is predetermined. Short of betraying fundamental class interests, different leaders can pursue different courses, the effects of which are not inconsequential to the lives of millions of people. Thus, it was not foreordained that the B-52 carpet bombing of Cambodia and Laos conducted by Nixon would have happened if Kennedy, or even Johnson or Humphrey, had been president. If left critics think these things make no difference in the long run, they better not tell that to the millions of Indochinese who grieve for their lost ones and for their own shattered lives.
It is an either-or world for those on the Left who harbor an aversion for any kind of conspiracy investigation: either you are a structuralist in your approach to politics or a “conspiracist” who reduces historical developments to the machinations of secret cabals, thereby causing us to lose sight of the larger systemic forces. As Chomsky notes: “However unpleasant and difficult it may be, there is no escape from the need to confront the reality of institutions and the policies and actions they largely shape.” (Z Magazine, 10/92).
I trust that one of the institutions he has in mind is the CIA. In most of its operations, the CIA is by definition a conspiracy, using covert actions and secret plans, many of which are of the most unsavory kind. What are covert operations if not conspiracies? At the same time, the CIA is an institution, a structural part of the national security state. In sum, the agency is an institutionalized conspiracy.
As I pointed out in published exchanges with Cockburn and Chomsky (neither of whom responded to the argument), conspiracy and structure are not mutually exclusive dynamics. A structural analysis that a priori rules out conspiracy runs the risk of not looking at the whole picture. Conspiracies are a component of the national security political system, not deviations from it. Ruling elites use both conspiratorial covert actions and overtly legitimating procedures at home and abroad. They finance everything from electoral campaigns and publishing houses to mobsters and death squads. They utilize every conceivable stratagem, including killing one of their own if they perceive him to be a barrier to their larger agenda of making the world safe for those who own it.
Parenti criticizes opponents of “conspiracy thinking” from a left perspective — integrating structural analysis with evidence of historical conspiracies i.e. organized secretive planning by elements of the elite. He also has a very good talk on the gangster nature of the State, which builds on these arguments. Lots of Parenti to listen to for free on TUCRadio while you are out exercising. Also good in this regard is Peter Dale Scott. Similarly, Barry Zwicker has some very good left analysis on false flags. (James Tracy and Jon Rappaport do similar good work from a right perspective.) Chomsky, Cockburn, Goodman, Alpert, et. al. are either willingly ignorant, as Parenti charitably states, or left gatekeepers.
Take the case of Chomsky: Good on US military history and crimes (until Libya), good on the effect of propaganda on the domestic society, bad on all issues of the secret state — real conspiracies, false flags, etc., and bad on recognizing Gene Sharp-type “Democracy Building” as subversion and not real democracy. (He and Amy Goodman helped market the ”Arab Spring” as a real grassroots democratic movement to the left.)
So of the four principal factors involved in shaping our current world, Chomsky has hit a double and is stranded on second base. Amy Goodman is caught in a rundown between first and second. Not a good enough record to be acclaimed as either the “World’s Foremost Leftist” or the “newscaster of the left.”
Then there is Chomsky’s propensity for calling every nationalist government leader the US wishes to topple a “monster.” (Stephen Gowans on the far left has long criticized Chomsky for this.) None are good enough for the “Libertarian Socialist” Chomsky. Gaddaffi was a “madman,” despite redistributing vast amounts of wealth to his countrymen — providing them such leftist bonanzas as universal single payer health insurance and universal housing — and giving them the highest standard of living in Africa. Chavez was too “authoritarian,” as if Chomsky was somehow unaware of constant US attempts to overthrow his government, forcing Chavez to maintain tight control to push forward the Bolivarian revolution. The effect of this is to build consent on the left for “left imperialism” by the US government, and to blunt any potential resistance movement from arising.
As far as being an activist, well, since MLK who on the left pays more than lip-service to the plight of the poor? And, who on the left since the sixties has worked to support and build a left party with a realistic platform to appeal to a US majority? In reality, the left was violently murdered in the slew of assassinations during the sixties, and what we have now is mere simulacrum of a “left.” I call them the “Feckless Left,” but I see brian has come up with a better term: “left ineffectuals.”
In analyzing the inexplicable ineffectualness of the left over the decades, some might even see a conspiracy theory there. But that is a whole ‘nother can of worms. 😉
Demian
Who reads msm though?
It hasnt got to you that western MSM report what they want? Wouldnt surprise me if they made up that guy or what he really said.
Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 11 2014 10:36 utc | 194
Strelkov finally did a press conference, English subtitles incoming soon:
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/09/breaking-news-strelkov-makes-historical.html
Very powerful speech. Strelkov also proved he sees The Big picture of geopolitics.
Interesting detail, although Strelkov clearly stated the ceasefire protocol benefits Ukies and made situation worse for Novorossia, at the same time he refused to blame Putin who pushed for this ceasefire, again it shows deep understanding of geopolitics.
Putin’s duty is to look after Russia’s interests first and foremost, therefore he has to carefully balance its interests (and Novorossia’s) while under intense pressure of West and pro-West oligarchs and 5th column. Putin sometimes has to make compromises at the expense of Novorossia, but at the same time there would be no survival of Novorossia if not Russia and Putin is the best leader they could hope for. There is a war going against Russia, and you dont overthrow the leader (even bad one) as it plays into the hands of enemies, what to speak of Putin, who is the only great leader Russia has at the moment. Thats why Strelkov bit the bitter pill of ceasefire and insisted opposition to Putin will make matters worse.
Posted by: Harry | Sep 11 2014 14:08 utc | 195
Harry
So west MSM is right then Putin control the rebels, is that what you are saying?
Posted by: Anoynmous | Sep 11 2014 15:24 utc | 196
malooga 192
from the list u provided earlier on…
http://www.greatdreams.com/planes/murder_by_plane_crash.htm
also people can get *suicided* too !
http://www.peace.ca/racetargetablebioweapons.htm
Posted by: denk | Sep 11 2014 15:44 utc | 197
Some links from the NATO website:
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_108272.htm
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_108215.htm
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_108225.htm
Posted by: Willy2 | Sep 11 2014 20:06 utc | 198
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/10/us/ferguson-michael-brown-shooting-witnesses/index.html
New Ferguson Micheal Brown shooting video for those that have not seen.
To Malooga at 193 —
Nice to hear from you again.
Just a quick query what is (Ludi)? I’m new to this blogging thing and its acronyms, what does it stand for. Or are you refering to the Roman games — I didn’t know that word. Knew of “Bread and Circuses,” of course.
On to the arena, then!
I’ve been reading Parenti’s work for a while, he’s been a regular at the Nation, and I believe I recall seeing him on “Counterpunch.” I must respectfully disagree.
To see conspiracies where a mutual material interest and common values produces common actions is to distort reality. To change it, one has to see it as clearly as possible.
If I might resort to reworking Adam Smith’s phrase, “the hidden hand” of numerous important actors produces the necessary goods in the marketplace of ideas.
I agree that the “deep state” takes many actions behind the curtain, and we’re to pay no attention to the men behind, should Toto rip it off. But to imagine some secret committee of Important Movers and Shakers meeting in Executive Session to Finalize Phase I of the Grand Plan is a bit of stretch.
Having said that, I am in total agreement with you assessment of St. Noam of Cambridge. There is a sort of “Immaculate Conception” on the left, as soon as a foreign resistance movement or state (like Venezuela) does something the oh-so-sensitive observer dislikes, they’re demonized. I wish I could recall who said or where, I read it recently on the Internet; the author wondered when, if ever, the left would start standing up for its values and beliefs.
And I certainly agree with your point that no one has really stood up for workers since MLK. As soon as he strayed from civil rights, he was persona non grata. After his murder, his views on Vietnam and workers disappeared under the halo of civil rights martyrdom. And don’t get me wrong, as Ferguson has shown, there is a long way to go under the “New Jim Crow.”
I posted elsewhere, I like brian’s “ineffectual left.” I’d steal it, but my prints would be all over the crime scene.
I’ve not heard of Stephen Gowans, from his post on Khrushchev, he seems worth watching.
Finally, the murders didn’t stop in the left, you recall the Greensboro Massacre in 1979? Nasty business.
Posted by: rufus magister | Sep 12 2014 3:24 utc | 200