Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 02, 2014

Ukraine: What Is The Situation?

The news from Ukraine is quite vague. It is not exactly clear to me who is gaining in the military field. While the Ukrainian military claims to have some successes it is also losing quite a lot of material and personal. At least ten Ukrainian soldiers, probably many more, were killed in an ambush yesterday. Add to that many pictures of destroyed tanks and APCs.

So what is really the military and political situation? Is there a reliable side or source for information on it?

Posted by b on August 2, 2014 at 17:38 UTC | Permalink

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http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com

Very good site for rebel reports on Ukraine.

Posted by: TomV | Aug 2 2014 17:48 utc | 1

News from all of Ukraine is "quite vague" and unreliable. The Junta just concluded enormous offensives in Donetsk and Lughansk to no apparent advantage - or rather, the offensives were concluded for them..or perhaps, ON them. I think most observers believe the Junta casualty report are ridiculously low. After the failed recent offensives its been reported even in the corporate media that the junta is using their SCUD missiles against the rebels and that the US is, obviously aware of it (and after killing so Iraqi troops because Saddam Hussein launched a few of these goofy things) ..another provocation attempt aimed at Russia, no doubt..Is this the "unreliable" reports you've been hearing/reading ?

Posted by: Marc | Aug 2 2014 17:51 utc | 2

Very good questions indeed, especially in the age of programmed mis- and dis-information. I look here, I look at the English version of Pravda, I look ay RIA Novosti, I look at the Vineyard of the Saker, and I look at Robin Westenra's Seemorerocks on blogger, and I scan widely. There are very few sources that aren't biased in some way or in the grip of something or someone. One can always read the Western/propaganda sites, not that there isn't any of that on the other side. I don't speak the languages or have any close friends who do or who are anywhere near the place. Same goes for other issues and locales.

Posted by: Ed | Aug 2 2014 17:54 utc | 3

I think ill add to the other comment I made, I also wonder what's going on with the larger populations in Ukraine and especially the fought over territory of Novorussyia. With respect to the separatist territories their political organization is very opaque. What is the plan?
I read a piece by Israel Shamir criticizing that critical of militia commander Strelkov, for being a "White",
(and Shamir is not hostile to Orthodox Christians I believe he is a convert). I am in agreement with Shamir. Nationalism and religion are not a basis for Independence and their seemingly static following shows that. As for the rest of Ukraine I've seen some evidence of the people already getting sick of the war. When the IMF provisions bite harder and the temperature drops Ukraine will probably be back in play.

Posted by: Marc | Aug 2 2014 18:10 utc | 4

I have seen everything from kiev military desertions to kiev ballistic missles possibly targeting chemical plants in the future to cause mass civilian casualties. Maybe kiev and its handlers are trying to get their ducks in a row, thus very little dicussions about Ukraine and the mh17 flight recorders which I last heard were in the UK.

Posted by: really | Aug 2 2014 18:26 utc | 5

Igor Strelkovs last press briefing is quite interesting. They have evacuated 130 injured militias to Russia from Dontesk. I imagine they are in trouble. Also, the bodies of a few black fighters were recovered, suggesting the use of mercinaries by the Ukranian army.
Strelkov seems quite open about militia losses, so I rate his briefings as fairly accurate. Better than anything else out there.

Posted by: Dan | Aug 2 2014 18:30 utc | 6

What are the goals?

Here from Kyiv Post - Imagining Donbas vote for Ukraine's parliament

Accelerated parliamentary elections apparently are now scheduled by President Petro Poroshenko for October this year.

No one should discount the possibility of the makeup of the next Rada showing a nearly a 50-50 divide, similar to that marking all previous regimes in the independent Ukraine. This divide essentially exists into this day, with deputies now committed to the oligarchs able to swing the outcomes. Having little choice after the ouster of Yanukovych, they have swung to shape a pro-Ukrainian majority.

Looking with open eyes, it is impossible to deny that elections for Ukraine’s parliament in Donetsk and Luhansk regions, if they take place there, would be for a party agenda similar to that of the Party of Regions.

...

As long as large population centers in Donbas are under rebel control, they will not take part in the next parliamentary elections, and will not help split Ukraine.

On the same arena comes the subject of Ukrainian army casualties in the east: over 363 killed and 1300 wounded as of the end of July 2014. The Kremlin wants nothing less than keeping up this pace. Its supply of armaments for pro-Russian insurgents to keep the war going is common knowledge.

From a Ukrainian point of view, the question is not what would be best (the pace of war is hardly under Kyiv’s control), but rather what options not to take. Attempts to crush the rebels in their city stronghold would be countered by more firepower from Russia, including direct across-border shelling.

Hypothetically, reconquering all of Donbas would open a plethora of problems for Ukraine’s democratic government, how to accommodate the traditionally pro-Russian population that basically despises Ukraine not of their own making, with Russian civilization attributes.

Perhaps the best realizable outcome could be a semi-permanent ceasefire if all sides would be willing to accept it. After all, a ceasefire in Korea has held a long time. Or think of Transnistria, and don’t reject it out of hand

It was clear from the "Pravy Sektor work for Russia" that this is a civil war to get rid of the pro Russian part of Ukraine.

Just the backers of these people did not seem to know.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 2 2014 18:46 utc | 7

It seems the West is pushing and pushing and ...

EU ‘quietly’ lifts ban on supplying Kiev with weapons and technology – Russia — RT News

The European Union has “quietly” agreed to lift restrictions supplying Kiev with military technology and equipment which can be used for the “repression” in the country, the Russian Foreign Ministry said.

"During a recent meeting of the Council of Europe in Brussels, leaders of EU member states agreed 'on the quiet' to remove restrictions on exports to Kiev of equipment that could be used for internal repression," the ministry said in a statement on its website. "Exports of military technologies and equipment were also allowed."

Moscow slammed the move as "contradicting the rules of military technologies and ammunition exports which have been earlier applied by the EU" and also "pierced" by double standards.

Posted by: Fran | Aug 2 2014 18:57 utc | 8

I generally support Russia's efforts against whatever neoliberal massacrists the US is supporting, but I wonder what will happen to the population of Novorossiya if it survives. Will it be a sad corrupt little place like Transnistria or Chechnya? Will it continue the corruption of the Ukraine before?

It would be great if Putin could set up good governance there, certainly the Ukraine option would be worse, but if the people of Ukraine could see how a proper state that wasn't 100% based on bribery and insider dealing, it would be very good.

Posted by: Crest | Aug 2 2014 19:11 utc | 9

Yes, it is too quiet. NYT reported the crash site was inspected by Dutch and Australian police since it is now under Ukraine’s control. Their interactive map shows Donetsk encircled. True or not, I can only speculate that this is the hush waiting to see if Russia intervenes. Obama’s call and reports of USA and EU sending more supplies to Ukraine I assume are to intimidate Putin.

Posted by: VietnamVet | Aug 2 2014 19:45 utc | 10

I think the east is winning at this point
1., The junta has renewed drive for conscription
2., there is Junta talk with East in Minks [Belorussia]
3., Putative call by Obama to Putin, suggesting peace effort
4., US duplicity: sending armaments to East

Posted by: NMS | Aug 2 2014 20:00 utc | 11

The OSCE reports on the attempts to reach MH-17 crash-site are quite informative …

OSCE Mission reports from Donetsk – July 30, 2014

On 30 July, the SMM support group in Donetsk attempted, for the fourth day in succession since the last successful visit on Friday 25 July, to access the MH17 crash site in Hrabove via a northern route (Yasenovata – Yenakievo – Debaltseve), using the E50 as the access road. Fighting was reported at 08:00hrs to be occurring astride this route in the northeastern outskirts of Donetsk in the vicinity of Yasenovata, 25km northeast of Donetsk. [Mission failed]

Discussions about next steps occurred in Kyiv. Following these discussions, which took place
(a) internally in Kyiv between the SMM and Dutch and Australian representatives,
(b) with the acting Prime Minister and Defence Minister of Ukraine, and
(c) between SMM Donetsk and the so-called “DPR” representatives [Donetsk People's Republic],
a detailed plan was agreed to access the site on a new, more northerly road via Artemisk (70km north of Donetsk).

Posted by: Oui | Aug 2 2014 20:31 utc | 12

Latest from the OSCE Special Monitoring Mission (SMM) to Ukraine, based on information received as of 18:00 hrs, 1 August 2014 (Kyiv time)

The SMM, together with Australian and Dutch experts, visited the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17. The convoy comprised 25 vehicles, including a bus and two mobile ambulances. The crossing of territories controlled by Ukrainian government or the so-called “Donetsk People’s Republic” (“DPR”) or the so-called “Luhansk People’s Republic” (“LPR”) went smoothly and was well organized. The SMM observed a new checkpoint positioned at Mius (14 km south-east of Debaltseve). At the Ukrainian checkpoint in Debaltseve (70 km north-east of Donetsk), the agreed ceasefire seemed to hold. About 10 kilometres south of Mius, the SMM was met by an “LPR” escort, and drove to the main wreckage site.

The SMM saw several instances of artillery impacts at 7–10 kilometres southwest of the crash site between 13:03-14:19hrs. The expert teams recovered some human remains. The Australian expert team wanted to operate an unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) in order to access areas such as fields, without damaging them. However, neither the “LPR” nor “DPR” representatives agreed to UAV use. After about five hours, the SMM left the site. The Australian and Dutch expert teams then left for Soledar (98 km northeast of Donetsk), where a forward operating base has been established. This base, closer to the crash site than Donetsk, will now become the main forward hub for investigative activity.

MH-17 Joint Dutch/Australian Forward Operating Base in Soledar – Aug. 2, 2014

Posted by: Oui | Aug 2 2014 20:32 utc | 13

I'm sure you all have covered this somewhere else in the comments (I would be surprised if you hadn't). Nevertheless, I think Pepe Escobar is onto something:

Meanwhile, the MH17 tragedy is undergoing a fast metamorphosis. When the on-site observations by this Canadian OSCE monitor (watch the video carefully) are compounded with this analysis by a German pilot, a strong probability points to a Ukrainian Su-25's 30 mm auto-cannon firing at the cockpit of MH17, leading to massive decompression and the crash. No missile - not even an air-to-air R-60M, not to mention a BUK (the star of the initial, frenetic American spin). The new possible narrative fits with on-site testimony by eyewitness in this now famously "disappeared" BBC report. Bottom line: MH17 configured as a false flag, planned by the US and botched by Kiev. One can barely imagine the tectonic geopolitical repercussions were the false flag to be fully exposed.

If this is true, we now have the reason the Kiev coup gov't was so anxious to take over the crash site!

Posted by: Maracatu | Aug 2 2014 20:34 utc | 14

@13 It's hot there too remember. There may be problems getting a steady supply of Fosters.

Posted by: dh | Aug 2 2014 20:46 utc | 15

I have a rather obvious but, as far as I know, unanswered question. Why didn't the investigators access the crash site via Russia? Wouldn't that have prevented the delays?

Posted by: woogs | Aug 2 2014 20:53 utc | 16

The militia reported that they downed 4 aircraft supplying food and ammunition to the Ukrainian troops in the southern Cauldron. The Ukrainians reported they lost 7 such aircraft. Weird. I would expect the Ukrainians to under report losses.

Posted by: Yonatan | Aug 2 2014 21:09 utc | 17

Posted by: somebody | Aug 2, 2014 2:46:49 PM | 7

Thanks for the link.

That's what I have been saying all along: deliberately creating a situation in which the partition of Ukraine is all but certain, and blaming Russia for the result.

Link to ACLUhttp://www.moonofalabama.org/2014/05/ukraine-what-might-be-the-outcome.html#comments

Look for the Post #10

Also that is the same argument made by a Kiev regime supporter, Todorov, back in April.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/19/ukraine-donetsk-pro-russia-militants

Todorov – a supporter of Ukrainian statehood – said he was deeply pessimistic about his country's future. He said he doubted presidential elections due to be held on 25 May would take place, at least not in the east. And in Kiev, he suggested, there was a growing feeling that Ukraine would be better off dumping its troublesome eastern provinces and creating a modern European country without them.

Posted by: PuppetMaster | Aug 2 2014 21:11 utc | 18

Hello,
for news on Ukraine, this is the very best source I found: http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/

Posted by: Abdelnour | Aug 2 2014 21:32 utc | 19

The three main sources in english are:

http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com

http://www.vineyardsaker.blogspot.fr

http://slavyangrad.org

Posted by: Joe | Aug 2 2014 21:33 utc | 20

US to train ukraine army
http://rt.com/usa/177520-california-ukraine-obama-military/

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 2 2014 21:33 utc | 21

Look here: http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-ignominious-conclusion-of-kiev.html
Enjoy!

Posted by: Abdelnour | Aug 2 2014 21:34 utc | 22

@16 'Why didn't the investigators access the crash site via Russia?' Because Putin would have gained brownie points.

Posted by: dh | Aug 2 2014 21:45 utc | 23

Here is some news.

----------------------------
In a nutshell Ukraine (or rather its puppetmasters) has decided to let no crisis(staged or otherwise) or rather civil war, go to waste, and while the fighting rages all around, Ukrainian troopers are helping to install shale gas production equipment near the east Ukrainian town of Slavyansk, which was bombed and shelled for the three preceding months, according to local residents cited by Itar Tass. The reason for the scramble? Under peacetime, the process was expected to take many years, during which Europe would be under the energy dictatorship of Putin. But throw in some civil war and few will notice let alone care that a process which was expected to take nearly a decade if not longer while dealing with broad popular objections to fracking, may instead be completed in months

“ Civilians protected by Ukrainian army are getting ready to install drilling rigs. More equipment is being brought in,” they said, adding that the military are encircling the future extraction area.

The people of Slavyansk, which is located in the heart of the Yzovka shale gas field, staged numerous protest actions in the past against its development. They even wanted to call in a referendum on that subject. Environmentalists are particularly concerned with the consequences of hydrofracking, a method used for shale gas extraction, because it implies the use of extremely toxic chemical agents which can poison not only subsoil waters but also the atmosphere. Experts claim that not a single country in the world has invented a method of utilization of harmful toxic agents in the process of development of shale gas deposits. subsoil waters but also the atmosphere.

Countries like the Czech Republic, the Netherlands and France have given up plans to develop shale gas deposits in their territories."...

http://www.controappuntoblog.org/2014/07/26/east-ukraine-gaza-syrian-rebels-hamas-qatar-secondo-il-trader/

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/742366

Posted by: really | Aug 2 2014 22:10 utc | 24

@17 There were probably only 2 planes, but the separatists over inflated their win. The Kiev regime likely promised 5 planes, so naturally 7 had to be shot down when only 1.5 planes worth of expired cough medicine was ever in the air. Morale has to be kept up after all.

Posted by: NotTimothyGeithner | Aug 2 2014 22:12 utc | 25

16;Yes,the Putin demonization must continue.
From a scream to a whisper,that is the story of flight 17,and very very strange.Must be backstage stuff going on,I still,with the SU25 talk,think it had to do with Mr.Putin,and attempting to assassinate the Russian leader would be very very controversial(maybe the junta is denying authorization of the deed),to say the very least.Somethings got to break soon,and yes, reports of new evidence by US right now would mean doctored docs.

Posted by: dahoit | Aug 2 2014 22:18 utc | 26

@18 puppetmaster

There are a number of factions at work here, often at cross-purposes. To ignore the objectives of certain oligarchs in this crisis is to ignore where the real power resides in the Ukraine. According to Colonel Cassad an attempt to partition eastern Ukraine was already attempted.

(Colonel Cassad) The Vineyard of the Saker
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.ca/2014/07/what-makes-strelkov-feel-melancholy.html

-In doing this, Strelkov thwarted the secret negotiations being conducted between Surkov’s people and the people of Akhmetov and Kolomoiskiy (through Kurginyan’s people). The gist of these negotiations was an attempt by near-Kremlin circles to coordinate with the Ukrainian oligarchs the question of a “large Transnistria,” to be fashioned out of the Lugansk and the Donetsk Republics,

-As soon as Strelkov’s retreat from Slavyansk scuttled the secret negotiations, hostilities across the entire front sharply activated – Ukrainian oligarchs, who were contact with Moscow, immediately became the targets of a mass media campaign. Following contacts between Kolomoiskiy’s deputy, Korban, and a person from Kurginyan’s circles, the campaign against Kolomoiskiy in the Ukrainian mass media took on wide-scale proportions, including even traditional SBU [Ukrainian Security Service] leaks, such as the discussion about the preparation of a harassment campaign against Lyashko, the goal of which was to turn the Nazi radicals against one of their sponsors.


Kolomoisky’s objectives are not necessarily aligned with those of the Ukrainian government. He seems to be intent on carving out his own fiefdom, incorporating the east and south regions of the Ukraine.
‘Kolomoisky is often described as a “third power”, a Ukrainian term meaning “unofficially in charge’. He was instrumental in scuttling the cease-fire negotiated in June between the EU, Russia and the Ukraine because it did not serve his interests.

Ukraine Turf Wars, Kolomoisky vs. Poroshenko
http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/07/14/ukraine-turf-wars-kolomoisky-vs-poroshenko.html

Kolomoisky finds ways to control the Dnepropetrovsk, Odessa and Kharkov regions. At the moment his influence is getting spread around the regions of Donetsk, Zaporozhye, and Nikolaev. He puts forward the idea of dividing the Donetsk region by making separate the Priazov region with Mariupol as its capital… His ambitions go as far as to become the provincial governor of the whole south-east of Ukraine with its two thirds of national GDP. It’ll make President Poroshenko a ‘lame duck” with no leverage to rule the country.

Posted by: pantaraxia | Aug 2 2014 22:35 utc | 27

@23 really

for more info on this read:

Company In Which Joe Biden's Son Is Director Prepares To Drill Shale Gas In East Ukraine
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-25/company-which-joe-bidens-son-director-prepares-drill-shale-gas-east-ukraine

What is not mentioned is that the beneficial owner of Burisma Holdings is none other than that scumbag Zionist oligarch Kolomoisky.

http://antac.org.ua/en/2012/08/kings-of-ukrainian-gas/

- The Privat Group is the immediate owner.
Thus, Ihor Kolomoisky managed to seize the largest reserves of natural gas in Ukraine.

Posted by: pantaraxia | Aug 2 2014 22:48 utc | 28

You want to know who is winning. The first weeks of the "Anti-Terrorist Operation" Kiev kept insisting the show would be over in hours. Ain't happened that way. Kiev still can't get an army of any size in the field. Mercenaries are by all accounts still required for Kiev to do much of anything. Kiev is completely willing to use phosphorus, Smerch, 203mm howitzers against civilian targets. But they can't move enough ammo to the front to do the job they are trying to do. Abundant Youtube videos from the front show Ukrainian forces with horrible morale and DPR/LPR forces with good morale. Abundant videos show citizens in West Ukraine pissed with recruiters. US maintains a full court press on sanctions and every other front they can think of. US public involvement would not be necessary if their proxy were winning. MH17 false flag kinda unnecessary if Ukraine was winning. Every time we see Kerry or Obama they look spooked/surprised by events/unprepared. Borodai/Strelkov/Putin look more and more confident. I'd say it's clear who is winning. General Winter arrives in 2 or 3 months & Kiev is finished. No deus ex machina short of nukes will save them.

Posted by: JCW | Aug 2 2014 22:54 utc | 29

@NotTimothyGeithner #24:

The rebels say they downed four supply planes. There is no reason to doubt them. Unless one has specific reasons to think otherwise in a given case, one should assume that everything the rebels say is true, and everything the junta says is a lie.

What I don't understand is why the cornered Ukies don't just go to Russia instead of starving to death. Maybe they are afraid that other Ukies will shoot them for desertion?

@dahoit #25:

"very very strange" is an understatement. Orwellian is more like it. Not a word on the black boxes since the Brits got their hands on them. Remember the frenzy the media was in about the search for the black boxes from Malaysia Airlines Flight 370? In this case, the black boxes have been found, but there is not a word about what they contain.

We haven't even been told whether the Ukrainian secret police have given the ATC recordings to the "international investigators".

Oui, have the Dutch media forgotten about this story like the Anglophone media have?

Posted by: Demian | Aug 2 2014 23:00 utc | 31

Any word on the report that US General Randy Kee was wounded & 3 other US military advisers were killed when ambushed by partisans behind the 'front lines'. Groups of partisans operating in the junta controlled areas of Ukraine are a very welcome extension of the conflict.

There was also a report of a US military trainer killed by a sniper in Odessa? Mariupol?

Posted by: AndyK | Aug 3 2014 0:05 utc | 32

It is very difficult to look at a map and get a sense for where the lines are drawn between the two armies. The situation is very fluid with many of the smaller villages and junctions changing hands on a daily basis. But there are some things that seem quite clear. There are three major points.

1) The Ukies launched major offensive operations at the end of June. This was part of the operation that Poroshenko would over in "hours, not days, not weeks". Well one month later the points of combat has not really changed much except for the rebels losing the cities of Kramatorsk and Slavyansk. These latter two loses are looking more and more like a brilliant tactical retreat by Stelkov. Those troops freed from those two cities are playing a critical role in holding the current lines. There have been only minor changes in those lines in the past week.

2) Poroshenko's widely publicized campaign to secure the Lugansk-Russian border and create a buffer zone has turned into a debacle. Many of those troops seized a border zone about 30 km with a depth of 2 or 3 km. They, in effect, created this long narrow salient into militia controlled territory. Right now the western end of that salient has been cut off by the militias thereby leaving the troops in a classic cauldron. Basically they are surrounded and cut off from their supply lines. There are about 4000 Ukrainian soldiers in the cauldron and it remains too powerful a force for the militia to overrun their positions. But they are not strong enough to break out. Also the Ukrainians do not seem to have reserve forces to try to break in. It seems their reserves are all tied up fighting the militias around Donetsk. The surrounded troops do have the option of fleeing into Russia but their orders are to stay and fight.

3) Early on the Ukrainians captured the Lughansk airport and have heavily reinforced the troops there. However, the militias have surrounded it and are preventing supplies from coming in over land. Again they are too powerful for the militias to overrun their positions, but they are not strong enough to break out.

All in all, the militias are doing extremely well. If all of those surrounded troops decide to surrender it would be the loss of 6000 troops to Ukraine. The most intense fighting is north and south of Donetsk and that seems to be where the Ukrainians are focusing their energy. The militias do not seem to have the ability to take on concentrated offensives but they seem to be retreating then counter-attacking the exposed flanks. Here is the results of one of those actions cassad at Shakhtyorsk that I think was one of those counter actions.

Posted by: ToivoS | Aug 3 2014 0:16 utc | 33

From the Voice of Sevastopol -

American general Kee Randy Allen

Slavyansk militants are conducting operations both inside their region and beyond its borders. Last night they shelled an all-road military truck GAZ-66 carrying a punitive troop of the Kiev junta. Militias are also fighting on the territory of Kharkov oblast (province). Shelling of the mechanized column with US military men has been their first major success.
This operation has been executed near the town of Izyum (52 km. to the north-west from Slavyansk). A reconnaissance and sabotage group of Slavyansk militants attacked a mechanized column of the US military instructors. Three US officers were killed. One of them allegedly was a woman – the fragment of a skull with bleached hair has been found on the spot. Besides, an American general Key Randy Allen who actually handles the punitive troops in Novorossiya was wounded. Taking into account that a sniper shot the US military adviser on the Mariupol beach on July, 30, already 10 of 180 US military men who had come to Ukraine were killed. Note that that the week has not ended yet.
General Major Key Randy Allen studied in the Reserve Officer Training Corps (University of Oregon). He was a navigating officer in the B-52 jet-powered strategic bomber’s crew and a pilot on the military transport plane. Kee Randy Allen took part in the Pentagon operations in SouthWest Asia, Balkans, and Afghanistan. Afterwards he worked in the US Ministry of Defense and the Headquarters US Air Force, Mobile Air Response Center (Deputy Commander-in-Chief), Directorate of Strategic Plans and Politics of the Joint Staff (Deputy Director for Politics in Western Hemisphere).

Posted by: AndyK | Aug 3 2014 0:32 utc | 34

@15 If Aussies ask for Fosters, they'd be fake agents. Same goes for the Dutch if they ask for Heiniken (though not so much).

Posted by: YY | Aug 3 2014 0:36 utc | 35

#32 AndyK do note there are many sites that post bogus information on developments in Ukraine. Your story here really smells like one of them. We are trying here to arrive at the likely situation in E. Ukraine. Your little contribution does not help.

Posted by: ToivoS | Aug 3 2014 2:08 utc | 36

re b's question 'ukraine - what is the situation?'

if you take a wide angle view on this, it reminds me of the ongoing ground wars in places like columbia which coincidentally have had usa involvement from the get go..

i think this is exactly what the usa/military industrial complex has wanted - ongoing strife and warfare on russia's doorstep with the thought of pulling russia into it.. then nato will have a valid excuse to go into ukraine... this seems to be where we are headed with every provocative act from mh17 to scud missiles and etc. etc. all aimed at pulling russia in.. russia so far has not bit the bait... so the bait will continue to be up'd .. bombing the eastern ukraine residents indiscriminately is also a part of this..

porky is obviously working for these same polluted interests, as is his partner in crime kolominiski or however you spell the dip-shits name.. they are least interested in the well being of the general population of the ukraine - and they share this same sentiment with these same usa military types that are completely focused on a bullshit operation in yet another faraway country they have no honest business being in.. well, they have lots of dishonest reasons to be in ukraine and that is why they are their, but there is no integrity to any of these characters.. they are for war 24/7 until they gain complete control and power over any adversary.. their biggest adversary is integrity too, lol... relying on ignorance is never a recipe for success.. ordinary people can smell a rat and they have lots of them to choose from in leading positions at present in the ukraine..

Posted by: james | Aug 3 2014 3:16 utc | 37

@james #35:

ordinary people can smell a rat and they have lots of them to choose from in leading positions at present in the ukraine..

Ukrainian nationalism/fascism has to burn itself out. Since the breakup of the USSR, Ukrainian children have been taught a completely invented history about a "Ukrainian nation". Unfortunately, now some of those children who have become of military age have to die, defending the lies they have been taught.

My feeling is that young Ukrainian men being killed as they try to kill fellow Ukrainians will become a problem for the junta sooner than the winter, with the junta's delinquent gas bills.

Posted by: Demian | Aug 3 2014 3:47 utc | 38

... well, they have lots of dishonest reasons to be in ukraine and that is why they are their, but there is no integrity to any of these characters.. they are for war 24/7 until they gain complete control and power over any adversary.. their biggest adversary is integrity too, lol.. relying on ignorance is never a recipe for success.. ordinary people can smell a rat and they have lots of them to choose from in leading positions at present in the ukraine.

Posted by: james | Aug 2, 2014 11:16:21 PM | 35

Your entire post is oh so true. Your "their biggest adversary is integrity" line was the most poignant verse I read today...funny to boot.

Posted by: really | Aug 3 2014 3:50 utc | 39

Ukraine looks to be in trouble, because they can't sustain these casualties. And controlling large urban centers takes a long time, and they haven't even started.

The militia can lose very battle and still win.

Posted by: jeff | Aug 3 2014 4:11 utc | 40

Antiwar Protests Spreading in Ukraine as Government Wages All-Out War in the Southeast and NATO Threatens Russia

A rising wave of antiwar and anti-conscription protest is taking place in cities and towns across western Ukraine. The protests are prompted by the announcement of Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko ten days ago that a "third" military mobilization is now required for the war that his governing regime began waging against the population of eastern Ukraine three months ago. Kyiv calls the war an "anti-terrorist operation." …

Kyiv is in a race to defeat the rebellion before the crippling cost of it all as well as rising antiwar protests and army desertions bring its offensive to a halt. It also has to worry about anticipated revolts by the Ukraine population as a whole once the harsh consequences of the economic association agreement that Kyiv signed with the European Union on June 30 bite deeper and deeper.

Posted by: Demian | Aug 3 2014 4:45 utc | 41

Russian Spring

Comment: The Russia Ministry of Defense has analyzed the graphical material published by the Ukraine Security Service (SBU) on 30 of July, which supposedly “denies” the authenticity of space photographs by Russia that Ukrainian “BUK” batteries were present in the area of Boeing-777 catastrophe, and which “undeniably proves” shelling the Ukrainian territory by Russian forces:

The mandatory attributes of factual material are such that tie up satellites images to terrain as well as astronomic time of the shooting.

This is necessary to accurately determine a set of satellites over the place of shooting, which, in turn, allows for understanding of characteristics and capabilities of spacecrafts orbiting the Earth at predetermined trajectories.

We can responsibly say that according to Space Control System of Russian Federation, between 10:00 and 13:00 Moscow time on 12, 16, 17 and 18 of July, neither of Ukrainian satellites, “Sich-1” or “Sich-2”, flew over the depicted territory.

At the time marked on the images, an American surveillance satellite of “KeyHole” type was over the zone of catastrophe. Therefore, the imagery origin the Ukraine Security Service processed should not create any doubts.

The detail analysis of the images reveals following:

On first two slides Russian and Ukrainian snapshots are overall identical. However, an important note, the snapshot presented by the SBU was made several days later.

The time of the day marked on the slides 3 and 4 does not correspond to what is depicted. At 11 a.m., the Sun in the area is on south-east, shadows are cast to north-west. Therefore, the slides are not just of some other date, but made afternoon; the time shown is intentionally tampered.

Furthermore, the highlighted by SBU stretch of woodland bears distortions caused by a photo editor.

In addition, according to the weather forecast on July 17, the cloudiness in area of settlement Avdeevka was 70-80% at altitude about 2500 m, which is observed on the slide by Russia. The slide 4 made by SBU depicts clear, sunny weather.

Resolution of the slide 5 made by Russia was purposely degraded by SBU photo artists; details of relief blurred (the tillage). The original slide lacks the inaccuracies cited by SBU.

The picture on Ukrainian slide 7 is identical to that by Russia, except for one caveat. The picture was made 5 days after the Russian snapshot. What SBU attempted to emonstrate remains unclear.

Let turn to analysis of the SBU graphical material, which supposedly proves delivery of arms and military hardware from Russian side, as well as deployment mysterious subversive groups or shelling populated areas.

Some transport objects and their tracks are discernible on the presented by SBU fourteen images, which are not tied up to terrain, date or time. For example, some country roads are discernible on about half of these images, 2-7.
However, one would not find a road crossing Russia-Ukraine border. The SBU made assertions that tracks on the fields belong to Russian armored equipment does not sustain critique.

Based on quality of the material, it remains unclear the method used to identify tanks, armored carriers or trucks, as well as their ownership by the Russian Federation rather than Ukrainian border troops or military forces.

Similar situation is with Russian military hardware shown on the Ukrainian territory on images 11-13. It is again unclear which properties attribute the hardware to Russian Army. The territory in areas of settlements Marinovka, Kozhevnya and Grigor`evka, where the hardware was supposedly “discovered”, has been under Ukrainian control for long time.

Regarding “footprints” of launching “Grad” systems in area of village Grigor`evka, which is the Ukrainian territory and under Ukrainian control (!), shown on images 8-10, this is another “masterpiece” of Ukranian way of shifting blame from a sick head to a well one…

The SBU officers should instead impose tighter control over privately weaponized battalions of Kolomoysky, Lyashko, Yarosh and other leaders, which are acting on their own shelling Ukrainian settlements.

Posted by: Fete | Aug 3 2014 6:04 utc | 42

The military situation is a desaster if the plan is to cut off and enter Donetsk. The Daily Telegraph map does not show the Russian border to the back of the Ukrainian army.

Daily Telegraph - Rebels prepare to defend Donetsk

It is never the military alone that wins a war - it is the whole media, diplomacy, political effort.

In that respect, I don't see how the Kyiv government can win a Grosny like Donetsk street fight.

The game is forcing Russia to enter Ukraine "protecting Russian speakers" as promised by Putin and destabilize Russia along the way, alternatively delegitimizing the Kyiv government by war crimes (but at the same time forcing Russia to act).

Russia can keep the border open to "private support groups" without officially entering the conflict - much like Turkey does in Syria. If necessary they can do a "responsibility to protect act".

Europe will then have to find a way out of self crippling sanctions.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 3 2014 6:36 utc | 43

#34 ToivS

If you had bothered to read my post at #30 "Any word on..... ??" that I was not posting this as fact but merely inquiring about the report.
Then at #32 I found the report on the site "Voice of Sevastopol" - linked from the Colonel Cassad site.

If you consider these sites to be unreliable just say so. If you consider the story to be unreliable just say so.
This is not to quote you my "little story". I have no interest in manufacturing any type of "little story".
You come across as a self opinionated pompous arsehole who considers himself as the arbiter of what can and cannot be discussed.
Your little contribution does not help.

Posted by: AndyK | Aug 3 2014 7:22 utc | 44

#43 I am certainly no resident expert but I do have the ability to analyze large bodies of data and make a few educated guesses on what it might mean. One of the skills required of a good analyst is to filter out the bullshit before wasting precious thought. AndyK was just bringing up some stuff that didn't pass the initial filter. I politely informed him of his bogus information.

BTW, what makes you think I am part of this cabal of "Zio-police"? Weird thing to say. My comment in this thread, for example, is just an excellent summary of the military situation in the Donbas -- it has nothing to do with Zionism.

Posted by: ToivoS | Aug 3 2014 8:03 utc | 45

another front in the US war of terror
Steiner @Steiner1776 · 15h
#WW3 #US puppet #Azerbaijan is shelling #Armenia with #Grad systems http://tvzvezda.ru/news/vstrane_i_mire/content/201408022028-585p.htm

Posted by: brian | Aug 3 2014 8:24 utc | 46

@ #44
No - it was not polite in any shape or form - it was an arrogant & condescending post made by someone who thought that it is his right to set the agenda.

In your post @ #31 you provide a link the Cassad site which is exactly were I got my link to the "Voice of Sevastapol" - so you obviously consider Cassad to be reliable but not the sites he links to. You realize this makes you look a complete cockhead.

@ #44

My comment in this thread, for example, is just an excellent summary of the military situation in the Donbas
- I just love the self assessment - you just can't make this stuff up.

Posted by: AndyK | Aug 3 2014 8:27 utc | 47

My impression through reading http://slavyangrad.org/ and http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.se/ is that the pro-Kiev junta forces are throwing large amounts of men and equipment against a much lower number of forces defending Donetsk and Luhansk but are having difficulties achieving results. That if they don't suffer very crippling defeats (like the group trying since the start of July to surround the whole region and cut it off from the Russian frontier which seems to be basically lost). The defending forces are overstretched and are just moving around the territory they control stopping or ambushing the attacking forces when they find themselves in a good position. Only in a few spots they seem to be able to stop large incursions but after the attacking forces advance they reposition and regain some of the lost terrain.

It's curious that the days before retreating their forces from Slavyansk and Kramatorsk the current Donetsk defenders commander Strelkov had been very vocal about their bad situation but now when based on pro-Kiev junta propaganda they have been cut off from the rest of the region he is basically silent. There doesn't seem to be any sense of danger to Donetsk city itself or urgent calls from action or support from the pro-defender sources.

If the pro-Novorosiya reports are true they are barely stopping the continuous attacks of larger forces (but of lower combat and tactic capacity) with a smaller defense force and the situation is for now 'stable'. If the pro-Kiev junta reports are true it's a continuous push with increasing number of military resources (even if many are wasted or lost) that will win in relatively long attrition war against the defenders.

Russia doesn't seem to be doing any move either lately, so either they are fine with the anti-Russian junta in Kiev winning the war by the end of the summer (and may be redirecting their nationalistic efforts to Crimea) or they don't think there is any danger and they just prefer the Ukrainian army resources to slowly be destroyed by the Novorosiya defenders (which is better diplomatically than a direct intervention that would destroy them fast).

Posted by: ThePaper | Aug 3 2014 8:40 utc | 48

Now back to where we were before the derailment.

Is there any credibility in this Voice of Sevastopol report?
But more significantly:-
Is there any partisan activity behind the 'lines'?
If so how far west does this activity extend?

This has huge potential to affect outcomes on the battlefield, both immediate & long term. The Ukraine is a big country with long supply lines, so any campaign to disrupt should be a priority. I am sure that there are plenty of sympathizers to the Novorussiya cause in the western oblasts.

Posted by: AndyK | Aug 3 2014 8:45 utc | 49

Put it in another way. The Novorossiya forces have been very vocal since the start of the war about their lack of military resources and calling for direct help from Russia. Their political and military objectives required direct or at least lukewarm support from Russia so they wanted to appear in need of help.

The last two weeks when the pro-Kiev forces seems to be advancing in force and large numbers (the previous week was trying to surround Luhansk, this week trying to surround Donetsk) they have been moved to a discourse that seems to say 'the situation is difficult but we are holding up and a hint we may heavily defeat them at the end'.

The reason for this change is because they are in real danger and are hiding this information? (But even the pro-Kiev forces are admitting heavy loses). Is it because after the downing of the MH17 they have been asked to cut their open relation/requests to Russia? Or because the pro-Kiev offensive is grinding down to a horrible military defeat? No idea.

Posted by: ThePaper | Aug 3 2014 8:53 utc | 50

Posted by: ThePaper | Aug 3, 2014 4:40:07 AM | 48

The "Kyiv government" has a few economic problems, one of them how to pay for their war.

The IMF is still supporting the war - this will become untenable at some stage though.

Above link even mentions "debt restructuring", that will be the end of those Ukraine bonds ...

Posted by: somebody | Aug 3 2014 9:12 utc | 51


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=609D3iJKBtQ

has to be seen to be believed - these Ukie soldiers have to be some of the dumbest grunts on the planet - they even admit that the Ukie High Command doesn't give a damn about them, but it never seems to enter their heads that that proves they are fighting for the wrong side.

==


PS @andy K

. @ 44

You realize this makes you look a complete cockhead.

Posted by: AndyK | Aug 3, 2014 4:27:25 AM | 47 -

he doesn't - that's what makes it so magnificently hilarious - that level of complete un-selfawareness is rare

@ #44 - "My comment in this thread, for example, is just an excellent summary of the military situation in the Donbass"

- I just love the self assessment - you just can't make this stuff up.

You could, but few would believe you if they didn't see it for themselves :-D

Told ya he wasn't that bright, didn't I

Posted by: Chorlte | Aug 3 2014 9:15 utc | 52

@ Demian #29
“'very very strange' is an understatement. … Not a word on the black boxes since the Brits got their hands on them.”
Not so strange: The international investigators have problems to get access to the site with the remains of the plane. Therefore, the analysis of the data in the black boxes has to wait until it can be harmonized with the findings on site. (Feel free to add quotation marks around the words “analysis”, “harmonized”, and “findings”).
The analysis of the blackboxes of the downed aircraft in Mali is already finished, of course. There was no problem of harmonizing the findings with any theory, so that was much easier and quicker done.

Posted by: Non | Aug 3 2014 9:52 utc | 53

Posted by: Non | Aug 3, 2014 5:52:44 AM | 53

not true.

New Strait Times Malaysia

THE preliminary analysis of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17’s cockpit voice recorder (CVR) revealed “nothing out of the ordinary”.

...

The CVR records all communications on the flight deck, including transmissions with air traffic controllers, discussions between the flight crew, cabin announcements and conversations with any other crew entering the cabin.

In this case, it could provide investigators with some insight into the flight crew’s mindset and emotional state if they had to deal with an emergency in the final moments.

However, it remains unclear if the Dutch-led investigation team had secured the recordings from the Ukrainian air traffic controllers to match the conversations between the ATC staff and the MH17 flight crew.

Asked about the Ukrainian government’s revelation on Monday that the aircraft was brought down by “a massive explosive decompression”, the source said the statement was “unconfirmed”.

The source told the NST that the “initial factual findings” of the probes into the shootdown of MH17 were expected to be released next week.

It is learnt that investigations also centred heavily on the findings provided by the group of three Malaysian investigators, who were among the first to reach the crash site and conduct probes.

The NST was told that instead of the 200 reported earlier, the experts dissecting the flight data recorder (FDR) were looking at 1,500 parameters of the black box.

The FDR records essential flight data parametres at least 10 times per second and defines the aircraft’s flight path and motion.

The data also include primary information, such as position, altitude, airspeed and heading. This allows investigators to reconstruct the aircraft’s flight path.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 3 2014 10:29 utc | 54

German pilot:

I recommend to click on the little picture to the right. You can download this photo as a PDF in good resolution. This is necessary, because that will allow you understand what I am describing here. The facts speak clear and loud and are beyond the realm of speculation: The cockpit shows traces of shelling! You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likeley that of a 30 millimeter caliber projectile.

Posted by: Maracatu | Aug 3 2014 10:49 utc | 55

From the fuselage images posted around it seems like the MH17 pilot cabin was hit by shrapnel or whatever so it seems likely the pilot and co-pilots were dead from the start. That explains no communication through radio.

Posted by: ThePaper | Aug 3 2014 10:56 utc | 56

And this is the most intriguing/conspiratorial part of the article you just posted:

However, it remains unclear if the Dutch-led investigation team had secured the recordings from the Ukrainian air traffic controllers to match the conversations between the ATC staff and the MH17 flight crew.

Given the reported confiscation of those recording by Ukrainian security service.

Posted by: ThePaper | Aug 3 2014 11:01 utc | 57

Posted by: ThePaper | Aug 3, 2014 7:01:18 AM | 56

I find this bit more intriguing

Asked about the Ukrainian government’s revelation on Monday that the aircraft was brought down by “a massive explosive decompression”, the source said the statement was “unconfirmed”.

Possibly they just felt they had to say something.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 3 2014 11:56 utc | 58

Slightly off, but still concerning Ukraine - Re: Malaysia flights (2) taken out/down, full pax, both having scientist/academia relevant to pandemic/disease on board, then we have odd reports of Ebola not just in Africa but Germany, the US both taking in infected! As far as I know this is not a norm or part of any protocol from any agency, the norm is containment at location, one could say this is such in Ukraine, no one can get in. It has been explained as: This will be the first 'purposeful' transport of an Ebola victim to the U.S. The first Malay plane just went of the radar; end of story, and it really is, nada on that since. Ebola and HIV two different viruses share a common budding mechanism, the Tsg101 protein, both flights has pax working on one or the other. If NPC cholesterol genes are non functional human cells are resistant to contracting Ebola and HIV-AIDS, but if that was the case you will die of something else. Example: looks like the NPC1 gene on Chromosome 18 is some type of master controller for various viruses and NPC kids are seemingly protected from certain viruses due to their genetic cholesterol defect. Could all this be a part of the population culling need? (Love the series 'Utopia' based on a like concept with factual population crisis on food security, energy and water).

Odd - WHO advises no flight restrictions, low risk from Ebola - IATA. So why advise, again it is not the norm, especially for WHO! Just in to make everything feel good: NEW YORK (MYFOXNY) -
The New York City Department of Health conducted a massive emergency preparedness drill at 30 facilities across the city on Friday.

They tested the delivery of emergency medications in the event of a biological attack, such as anthrax, or other large-scale public health emergency in the city. The majority of the deliveries will take place to public school buildings.

It's the largest surprise drill in the city's history. The drill was scheduled to take place from approximately 6:30 a.m. until 3:00 p.m. The majority of participants were given no notice to better test and simulate a real emergency and response.


Posted by: JJ | Aug 3 2014 11:56 utc | 59

anj antifascist campaigner who supports ukraine fascism!

'Veteran anti-fascist campaigner Gerry Gable, the former editor of Searchlight magazine, described SARU as ‘a scam’ and said he turned down an invitation to its launch at London University’s School of Oriental and African Studies'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2714460/Red-Len-s-right-hand-man-backs-pro-Putin-rebels-Unite-union-s-chief-staff-brands-Kiev-rulers-fascist.html#ixzz39Kl51iAL
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Posted by: brian | Aug 3 2014 13:01 utc | 60

So what is really the military and political situation? Is there a reliable side or source for information on it?

Like Ed up top at 3, I went round and about most of the morning, and read more of the Saker, the Reddit live feed, AlJazz, many others, than I wished to.

What struck me - and this is not more than mildly interesting - was the mix of language, which veers from the plain descriptive, hard to fit into a larger context (Strelkov for ex., like WW2 bulletins) to sort of strategic talk (Donesk being ‘encircled’ in the Escobar piece and elsewhere) to empty statements and propaganda.

Hard to make out what exactly this ‘war’ is, it is treated variously as a rebel-opposition-terrorist guerrilla type action; a war between two regions as two separate entities, as if the Donbass had its own gvmt., army and ppl behind it - clash of civilizations style; of course a civil war, a proxy war as well, etc.

So I’m confused, the media is confused, except that it is all Putin’s fault, and surely this confusion stretches to the ground, e.g. one does not encircle a town if one is fighting a guerrilla war - but was that ‘news’ real? (No milit. expert me.) No doubt someone will come out and tell me it is all very simple.

Imho if the Kiev coupists were doing well we would see/hear more about it, so they must be having a rough time.

Possibly, the aim is just to let this conflict fester for as long as possible, emptying the region, or letting it break off or rather rot and crumble away, creating an ‘enemy on the doorstep’ - always useful. It is also possible that Kiev and its backers are pretty much flying blind (sic, see MH17) with conflicting plans negotiated between untrustworthy, quarreling partners, jockeying for control.

Russia’s interests are to do nothing, as Putin made the choice long ago. That choice was a compromise, a middle road (perhaps hasty and spurred by events), to take on Crimea but not invade the Donbass.

There is a real fuziness of ‘aim’ in all this, except perhaps for the separatists if one sees them as a revolutionary force with breakaway aims, but with an unclear political agenda.

side bar: The first Ukrainain refugees have arrived here. A thousand ppl crossed just the one border, in Chiasso, last month. Along with the crowds of Syrians, Iraqis, a trickle. They have already been informed (from press, no idea if correct) that they will be processed but in the end repatriated, as the situation in Ukr. does not justify etc.

Posted by: Noirette | Aug 3 2014 13:55 utc | 61

whoever suggested that the Lugansk/Donetsk region might become a corrupt little statement should remember a few things: these regions are the most prosperous in the Ukraine aside from the region immediately surrounding Kiev. The also account for, if i am not mistaken a full 10-15% of the population of the country. they are home to the majority of the industry as well. Their proximity to Russia, unlike the transdniester is another advantage. I think they have great potential - which is probably what the campaign of death and destruction launched by the CIA and the Nazi junta is designed to destroy.

in other news, looks like our resident lickspittle can't even maintain a single screen name for the duration of a thread.

Posted by: guest77 | Aug 3 2014 14:26 utc | 62

Saker reports that a Uke journalist interviewed on a US funded radio station openly called for a genocide against Russian supporters in eastern Ukraine.

So Zionist fanatics not the only ones calling for genocide against their opponents.

A historical footnote. A Gallup poll take in 1945 near the end of WW 2 showed that 20% of the US population favored the total extermination of the Japanese race.

This is what a. steadydiet of hate propaganda can lead to

Posted by: Vollin | Aug 3 2014 14:29 utc | 63

what right, exactly, does a little gross fascist have in calling other people "fake" leftists? does anyone think this troll, having spilt many, many electrons pushing Svoboda-approved versions of Ukrainian history and thereby backing through junta has any standing to act as an authority on events there, or even to commisserate with us here who are truly concerned?

@AndyK - beware this guys cheap butt kissing and increase fake attempts to pretend like he is any thing but a cutout for the US empire. Don't waste your time, we have been on to you for years.

Posted by: guest77 | Aug 3 2014 14:31 utc | 64

@60 - maybe this will shed some light. You gotta take everything at face value these days but it sounds reasonable to me.


http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/25322-antiwar-protests-spreading-in-ukraine-as-government-wages-all-out-war-in-the-southeast-and-nato-threatens-russia

Posted by: really | Aug 3 2014 15:06 utc | 65

Mike Whitney over at Counterpunch has an interesting take on flight 17.As I'm a luddite,I don't do links,sorry.
The word on the MSM street is shhh.Nothing said,nothing revealed.Mushrooms are to be left in the dark.
Oh,somewhere(Wapo)they had a picture of the Zionist soldier Goldins funeral,I guess to match their total lack of coverage of Muslim funerals.
And,the Israeli govt. got to oversee NYTs coverage.

Posted by: dahoit | Aug 3 2014 17:03 utc | 66

Link to dahoits post..

Posted by: james | Aug 3 2014 17:27 utc | 67

@Demian - #31

Dutch Safety Board: Investigation crash MH17 in Donetsk – July 25, 2014

Expect an update on Friday.

Posted by: Oui | Aug 3 2014 18:12 utc | 68

It is getting very strange now

This here is Barbara Starr, CNN, according to Wikipedia

Starr has received criticism for her reporting, having been called "a spokesperson for The Pentagon."[2][3] In June 2013, MSNBC reporter Chris Hayes ran a segment in which he argued that Starr's publication of leaked information was at least as potentially harmful to national security as those published by Glenn Greenwald of The Guardian. He noted the fact that, unlike with Greenwald, politicians and other prominent figures failed to call for Starr's prosecution on the basis that Starr's use of leaked information invariably favoured government interests, implicitly questioning Starr's independence and arguably even her integrity and status as a journalist.

This here is Barbara Starr, CNN, on Ukraine using short range ballistic missiles.

This is Deutsche Welle saying that NATO confirms it.

This is Deutsche Welle on Ukraine denies.

This is Deutsche Welle on Nato denies Ukrainian use of ballistic missiles.

And now - same Barbara Starr

U.S. official: Spy plane flees Russian jet, radar; ends up over Sweden

supposedly one day after MH17 ie July 18th.

What is the Pentagon trying to do?

Posted by: somebody | Aug 3 2014 18:26 utc | 69

@69 "What is the Pentagon trying to do?"

Feeding massive amounts of data into a computer to come up with a cool new app?

Posted by: dh | Aug 3 2014 18:51 utc | 70

@69 - cnn.. i never go their.. are they an official sponsor corporation to the financial/military industrial complex? haha.. it appears so! i guess they beat out coke for the status.. coke will do wonders, but cnn will blow your mind!

Posted by: james | Aug 3 2014 19:06 utc | 71

cnn, the new improved fox news, lol..

Posted by: james | Aug 3 2014 19:07 utc | 72

This here is a map of Sweden and Russia

The encounter must have taken place over Kaliningrad, if at all.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 3 2014 19:09 utc | 73

somebody@69

The destabilization of Russia, a nuclear power, by force is an enormous risk. A nuclear holocaust is just one foolish human mistake away. The Cuban Missile Crisis and Able Archer 83 both almost resulted in a nuclear war. The ruling elite are blinded to this by their greed to loot Russia, the State Department by ideology and cognitive dissidence, and the White House by all three. My guess is that the part of US military still uncorrupted by the revolving door recognized the danger to their families and mankind from a shooting war with Russia and leaked the information that Ukraine fired ballistic missiles at the rebels since it is a significant escalation in the risk of a nuclear war.

If untrue, CNN would have retracted the story by now. The 24/7 propaganda and lies have one purpose to hide how close the human race is to mass extinction event. The risks from Climate Change and Fossil Fuel Depletion that play into this risk are minimized too, just not so much since the weather and energy prices are so much a part of the news cycle today.

Posted by: VietnamVet | Aug 3 2014 19:33 utc | 74

Here is the Kind of news one can expect from out of Ukraine - From the Kiev Junta side ..Watch this Keebler elf (a self described "journalist" the Ukraine) call for genocide in the Donbas...He even helpfully provides a round target number of victims(1.5 million)..This is being paid for by the US and EU. This is the kind of "jounalism" and "activism" which agencies like USAID and NED used to create the Maidan riots. They are still subsidizing this Fascist movement and we may expect it to spread from one end of liberal "democracy"-land to the other..I first saw this clip at Cassad's website a few days ago..The Saker now has it posted

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/08/its-perfectly-simple-you-need-to-kill.html

Posted by: Marc | Aug 3 2014 20:12 utc | 75

While propaganda is always the rule, relative to corporate state media outlets everywhere, in a war zone such as is happening now in the Ukraine, the normal level of lies and distortions are multiplied a hundred fold. So no, unfortunately there is little usable news that I have found for the Ukraine lately. Lots of heat, no light. Outsiders are left to speculate with only the smallest amount of hard information.

Posted by: Robert Gorden | Aug 3 2014 20:17 utc | 76

That video of the journalist calling for genocide is a fake... Its really part of a half-hour long q@a, and has been edited... Dont bother...
catcherinthelie

Posted by: Dan | Aug 3 2014 20:40 utc | 77

Posted by: VietnamVet | Aug 3, 2014 3:33:20 PM | 74

Presumably, it is another way of explaining that the open sky treaty is off

Strange enough, the Ukrainian foreign minister on CNN does not seem to have got the message that the new cold war is on.

Ukraine has been consistently advocating not only international control of nuclear weapons, but today we also stand for the creation of a universal mechanism for international control of conventional arms.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 3 2014 20:54 utc | 78

Reading this thread of comments on the intelligent question of where to get reliable information on the uUkrainian conflict I come to this unfortunate conclusion.: there is a lot of misunderstanding of the Ukrainian realities. So I have learned a few very simple rules to help me understand the value of the information.

1. When the writer uses the expression "junta" to describe the Kieve government, I immediately stop reading.

2. Then the writer calls the Kieve government "fascist" I stop reading

3. When the writer suggests that eastern Ukraine want to join Russia, I stop reading.

These are just a few ways you can decide if the writer understands what he's writing about or whether his agenda is other that thought, informed and fair.

There are other ways we can find out the information on Ukraine but they require going there and looking around.
WL

Posted by: Wilder Lewis | Aug 3 2014 21:03 utc | 79

#79 Well Wilder your criteria means that you will not read any Russian newstories or summaries of the fighting from Donbas militias. That leaves you with the Kiev news outlets and the Western press. That will certainly provide a rounded picture.

How does one describe the current Kiev regime. It was established by a violent coup that over threw the legally elected Yanukovich government. Poroshenko might have been brought to power by a national election that excluded huge tracts of E Ukraine but it is hard to call that a legally elected government given the wording of the Ukraine constitutions.

Posted by: ToivoS | Aug 3 2014 21:28 utc | 80

@79 Wilder Lewis.. good point. i do the same when the words 'terrorist' and such like minded terms are used to reference the folks of eastern ukraine.. now, if you stop reading those msm sources who use this term, you will essentially be left high and dry on any relevant news, as robert gordon @76 correctly points out..

Posted by: james | Aug 3 2014 21:36 utc | 81

ps - at this point wilder is just another propaganda bot for one side.. it is ironic someone claiming to want to get past the propaganda is an actual mouthpiece for the propaganda.. i wouldn't say this if their comments weren't so lopsided..

Posted by: james | Aug 3 2014 21:38 utc | 82

Posted by: ToivoS | Aug 3, 2014 5:28:45 PM | 80

Actually, you just have to listen to "Kyiv" propaganda to know something does not work out.

Here the Ukrainian defense minister tells the BBC they are fighting 300 "terrorists".

He also claims the crash site of MH17 is highly strategic - though the villages there lived in absolute peace before the plane came down.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 3 2014 21:50 utc | 83

@Wilder Lewis | Aug 3, 2014 5:03:32 PM

When the writer is an obvious troll EVERYBODY stop reading!
(do you mistopk this place for CNN, BBC or something or are you THAT retarded?)

Posted by: acrimonious | Aug 3 2014 22:00 utc | 84

@acrimonious #84:

LOL.

When I see the Ukraine referred to as a "country" or the Kiev junta referred to as a "government", I stop reading.

Posted by: Demian | Aug 3 2014 22:18 utc | 85

Found this link in the comments forum over at Kremlin Stooge:
http://slavyangrad.org/2014/08/03/el-murid-sitrep-august-1-2014/

Very interesting - the Ukrainian military is in complete disarray. Discipline is lacking, soldiers do not know what to do and are demoralised.

Posted by: Jen | Aug 3 2014 23:07 utc | 86

@79 Wilder Lewis

Ummm...Kieve is a municipality in the Müritz district, in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Germany. I don't recall anyone claiming their municipal government is either a junta or fascist, at least not in contemporary times.

Posted by: shargash | Aug 4 2014 0:08 utc | 87

Washington Post just found out the Ukrainian army is cut off on the Russian border and supplies not coming through.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 4 2014 5:51 utc | 88

obama think he rules the world
now call for regime change in Russia (well not stated)
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/08/04/373958/obama-lashes-out-at-russian-president/

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 4 2014 8:21 utc | 89

any truth that 300-400 ukie army soldiers have deserted to Russia as russian news tells us?

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 4 2014 8:24 utc | 90

Another news is that Germany stop the building of a training facility in Russia for the russian military worth 100s of millions.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 4 2014 8:39 utc | 91

Ukranian propaganda site with latest news - http://tyzhden.ua/. Same Internet server as Ukranian Week.

Posted by: Oui | Aug 4 2014 8:53 utc | 92

@28

Yeah when I read about the hunter biden " burima deal" that just put the cherry on top of shit sundae that is US involvement in Ukraine.

Btw, Kiev is basically calling cnn's pentagon reporter barbara starr a liar in regards to her report of kiev's "game changer" use of ballistic missles against eastern ukraine. Kiev denies even possessing ballistic missles. Someone is lying...is it cnn and the pentagon/nato, kiev or both?


Ukraine denies using ballistic missiles
http://m.dw.de/english/mobile.A-17827342-1429.html


Posted by: really | Aug 4 2014 12:13 utc | 93

@93

http://www.nti.org/country-profiles/ukraine/delivery-systems/

Posted by: really | Aug 4 2014 12:27 utc | 94

@90 It's been confirmed by the Ukrainian military so it must be true. 400 crossed the border leaving their equipment behind. Of course there are several ways to spin it.

Posted by: dh | Aug 4 2014 13:23 utc | 95

any truth that 300-400 ukie army soldiers have deserted to Russia as russian news tells us? at 90

Numbers are always difficult in situations like this. I would credit it as correct, as there have been many previous reports of Ukr. soldiers crossing over (not just fleeing families) - I'm interested in the refugee question and have read many reports about that. As they are being rousted and were, for many, quite reluctant, that news strikes me as credible.

Posted by: Noirette | Aug 4 2014 14:31 utc | 96

Fran posted this on another thread. Looks legit...

http://rt.com/news/177740-ukrainian-military-russia-refuge/

We will probably soon be seeing videos of the abandoned equipment.

Posted by: dh | Aug 4 2014 14:39 utc | 97

This looks like a correct story -- over 400 Ukrainian soldiers were allowed to leave Ukraine for Russia provided they leave behind all of their weaponry undamaged. The Russians will allow any who wish to return to Ukraine and give asylum who wish to stay in Russia. About 50 who did this last week and then returned to Ukraine seem to now being charged with desertion.

What is interesting about this story is that so far it is being ignored in the western press. Guardian even has a story up about UA victories in the Donetsk battle that is going on now. This story has been reported for over the past 10 days though as we have been discussing above, the "front" lines have hardly changed during that time.

Posted by: ToivoS | Aug 4 2014 18:48 utc | 98

The BBC has a piece on it....

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28637569

Mr. Lysenko is working hard to make it look like a strategic victory.

Posted by: dh | Aug 4 2014 18:59 utc | 99

dh. The map accompanying this BBC article has an interesting detail. The town of Gukovo is not shown, but it shows the territory controlled by the militias and that by the UA. However, if you place Gukovo on that map, you will see that the UA controls the Ukrainian side of the border, the militia lines are drawn 20 km to the north of there. This map, I believe, was released by the Ukrainian military to the western press last week. Those troops that just surrendered had been surrounded by the militia forces for about 3 weeks.

I have noticed for some time that those stories of the successful UA offensives coming out in the western press are based on official announcements from Kiev. It is a big part of the confusion that we have been discussing about in this thread. I wonder if the Guardian and BBC might want to put some of their reporters back there on the ground to get a better sense for what is happening.


Posted by: ToivoS | Aug 4 2014 19:35 utc | 100

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