Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 04, 2014

Obama's Russia Policies Are Based On Ignorance, Illusions

Obama's Russia policies are based on ignorance and driven by illusions:

President Barack Obama dismissed Russia as a nation that "doesn't make anything" and said in an interview with the Economist magazine that the West needs to be "pretty firm" with China as Beijing pushes to expand its role in the world economy.
"Immigrants aren't rushing to Moscow in search of opportunity. The life expectancy of the Russian male is around 60 years old. The population is shrinking," he said.

Fact: Russia is making and exporting not only raw materials but also lots of industrial goods, machinery (65% increase over 5 years) and weapons:

Russia has cemented its place as the world's second largest suppliers of arms. In 2012, the country shipped $15.13 billion worth of weapons, up $2 billion from the year before.
Although Russian arms manufacturers still sell only a third of what their American counterparts achieve, the yearly rate of growth in exports and the over-fulfillment of annual plans cannot fail to please the authorities and defense industry chiefs.

Fact: Russia has strong, net positive migration:

Russia experiences a constant flow of immigration. On average, close to 300,000 legal immigrants enter the country every year; about half are ethnic Russians from the other republics of the former Soviet Union. There is a significant inflow of ethnic Armenians, Uzbeks, Kyrgyz and Tajiks into big Russian cities, something that is viewed unfavorably by some citizens. In addition, there are an estimated 4 million illegal immigrants from the ex-Soviet states in Russia.

Fact: Over the last decade life expectancy in Russia has significantly increased:

Russia - Life expectancy at birth
DateLife expectancyLife expectancy - MenLife expectancy - Women
2012 70.46 64.90 76.30
2011 69.66 64.00 75.60
2010 68.86 63.10 74.90
2009 68.70 62.80 74.70
2008 67.90 61.80 74.20
2007 67.50 61.40 73.90
2006 66.60 60.40 73.20
2005 65.47 58.87 72.40
2004 65.42 58.87 72.30
2003 65.01 58.51 71.83
2002 65.09 58.50 72.00
2001 65.49 59.00 72.30
2000 65.34 59.00 72.00

Fact: Russia has genuine population growth:

[L]last year [..] Russia recorded its first year of natural population growth since the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, with the number of births exceeding the number of deaths by 24,013. The trend continued through the beginning of this year, according to data released by the State Statistics Service at the end of May.

All four claims Obama made in the Economist interview quoted above are demonstrably false. They are mere illusions.  How qualified then is he to decide on policy issues with regard to Russia?

Posted by b on August 4, 2014 at 1:27 UTC | Permalink

next page »

excellent points b and one could also add the strength of Russia's armed forces and the Russian state (from its days as a failed state vandalized by 'vampires'). Not mention the 'unmeasurables' such as Russia's enhanced global image, its highly effective diplomatic positioning on a range of critical issues - including Iran, Libya, Syria - and at a time when no state dare raise its head, Russia openly challenges the U.S. and gets away with it. That last in itself brings political capital.

On the point of Obama and his facts, the man is smart and surrounded by incompetent advisors, he is not making a factual argument and his audience knows it --- he is simply denigrating Russia and in so doing showing who's Boss. Will anyone buy it, sure some will. It makes it easier that his counter part keeps saying "our colleagues" and making factual arguments while getting spat on.

Posted by: thirsty | Aug 4 2014 2:22 utc | 1

Crimea&East ‏@IndependentKrym ·6 hrs
reports Ukraine deploys sabotage groups in #Donetsk , disguised as DPR militiamen. doing what necessary to turn population against militia.

Posted by: brian | Aug 4 2014 2:26 utc | 2

'President Barack Obama dismissed Russia as a nation that "doesn't make anything" '

now that US businesss have all gnoe to china mexico or elsewhere, neither does America!

Posted by: brian | Aug 4 2014 2:27 utc | 3

Guess ISS thay the US use from Russia is not that prolific? Just your run of the mill space station...

Posted by: kjs | Aug 4 2014 2:28 utc | 4

Fact: Russia has strong, net positive migration:

not to mention certain olympic athletes to leave their home countries for lack of opportunity(eg USA and south korea), to russia: the land of opportunity

Posted by: brian | Aug 4 2014 2:29 utc | 5

as for life expectancy, under Yeltsin and the odious oligarchs it dropped alarmingly...and has been increasing thanks to Putins policies

Posted by: brian | Aug 4 2014 2:31 utc | 6

U.S. May Seek License for Russian Rocket Engines

The U.S. relies on the engines to launch military and spy satellites into space. United Launch Alliance LLC, a joint venture between Lockheed Martin Corp. and Boeing Co., is the sole provider of medium– and heavy-lift rockets under a program called Evolved Expendable Launch Vehicle, or EELV. It uses the RD-180 as the main engine on its Atlas V boosters.

Posted by: Frank | Aug 4 2014 2:53 utc | 7

Obama panders to his perception of what the audience wants, world politics sound more and more like high school (an American high school). This is no better than McCain grousing about Russia being a gas station, although in the case of McCain he's got the excuse of senility.

High school or not the G7 heads are not going to be able to face Putin out of general embarrassment, not even with their thick skins, if G8 ever gets revived again. Thick skins is one thing thick headedness is another. Just as well that G8 is probably dead.

So where is the crash report?

Posted by: YY | Aug 4 2014 3:16 utc | 8

Russian Spring

Donetsk. 08/03/2014-22:17

Comment: The analysis of state of the confrontation is not readily available. The plight of the “South Caldron” has not been discused.

It is understood that, undeterred by rather unsuccessful offensive, the government will obstinately rekindle the fight after short recharge.

A message from the Combatant Headquarters of Ministry of Defense of Donetsk People Republic:

All parts of the front experienced relative lull today. Insignificant skirmishes took place in area of cities Shakhtersk and Gorlovka. Both sides pursued reconnaissance activities.

The opponent was occupied by regrouping the forces south, west and south-east of Donetsk. The combatants were fortifying their positions.

Posted by: Fete | Aug 4 2014 3:19 utc | 9

Great, Russia makes lotsa weapons too. Yay.

Oh well, human disease.

Obama is a truly sad and bizarre creature/creation.

USA has nothing to say anymore but childish belligerence.

So crazy awful country. Such decline. Wow.

Posted by: Sharkbabe | Aug 4 2014 3:25 utc | 10


Krugman (1994) argues that, in the context of countries, productivity is what matters and "the world's leading nations are not, to any important degree, in economic competition with each other." Krugman warns that thinking in terms of competitiveness could lead to wasteful spending, protectionism, trade wars, and bad policy.[15]

Putin agrees

The Russian economy is operating well below its potential and a 3.1% labor productivity rate is intolerably low for the country poised to become Europe’s biggest, President Vladimir Putin told the 5th Russia Calling! investment forum in Moscow.

“The key bottleneck for the Russian economy is its low efficiency,” the President told businessmen, investors, and state officials at the Forum.

In terms of GDP, "we are poised to become Europe's number one economy and the fifth biggest in the world," Putin said, adding that Russia is on a par with other countries in the EU in terms of per capita GDP and consumption.

In 2012 Russia overtook Germany in the World Bank ranking to take 5th place on the list of the world’s biggest economies in terms of purchasing power parity (PPS)

However, labor productivity is now less than half the level of most developed economies – at 3.1 percent. In coming years, productivity must increase by 5%-6% a year, twice the current rate. "Only in this way can we overcome the efficiency gap," the president said. "I am confident that we are capable of doing that," he concluded.

Of course, Russia has got problems. The US is doing everything they can so they won't solve them.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 4 2014 4:39 utc | 11

I guess Obama stretches his role of father in chief to foreign policy.

"There have to be mechanisms both to be tough with them when we think that they're breaching international norms, but also to show them the potential benefits over the long term," he said.

I guess, it is time kids move out of the empire.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 4 2014 4:56 utc | 12

UN said late last year that Russia has the second largest immigrant population in the world at 11 million
(chart on page two)
RIA article about it

Elsewhere I saw Russia placed at #3 behind Saudi Arabia (before the crackdown this year) or UAE using different numbers.

Anyway his xenophobic speech was even more egregiously wrong than you wrote

Posted by: dan | Aug 4 2014 5:22 utc | 13

Posted by: dan | Aug 4, 2014 1:22:00 AM | 13

Large part of this "immigration" is from former Soviet Republics. The Russian Federation does have a unique history.
Bottom line is US/NATO will not cease and desist from enlargement (with Germany, France et al against, and US creating "special partnerships" instead) and the Russian Federation will not cease and desist from their sphere of influence.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 4 2014 5:41 utc | 14

@8: This is no better than McCain grousing about Russia being a gas station, although in the case of McCain he's got the excuse of senility.

Haha. Nice one.Thanks for the laugh.

Posted by: Thumper | Aug 4 2014 8:44 utc | 15

What the hell is wrong with him, who ridicules another people like that?!

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 4 2014 9:43 utc | 16


1989 - Cold War Ends, Soviet Union Collapses ("Mr Gorbechev tear down this wall") R.R.
1990 - Gulf War Begins, Demonization of Islam ("We can't wait for the Truth!")G.W.B.
2014 - Arab Spring Blowsback, US/NATO Collapses ("The ME is a real mess!") M.A.
2015 - Cold War II Begins, Demonization of Russia ("Russia doesn't make anything") B.O.

See, MIC will systematically turn everything that
humans have ever created into *ashes and smoke*.
Die Welt does not tolerate Elitist War Criminals.
We will not be liquidated for their mere 'Quiet™'.
They can chant the Torah as we tighten the rope.
"This time we won, and you lost. Any last words?"

One less murderous mouth to feed.

Posted by: ChipNikh | Aug 4 2014 10:20 utc | 17

"How qualified then is he to decide on policy issues with regard to Russia?" He is qualified because he is the leader of the "exceptional nation". What a load of bollocks.

Posted by: harry law | Aug 4 2014 11:13 utc | 18

That first quote is just pure arrogance and reminds me of (what will soon become) the immortal words of Immanuel Wallerstein:

The basic problem is that the United States is, and has been for some time, in geopolitical decline. It doesn't like this. It doesn't really accept this. It surely doesn't know how to handle it, that is, minimize the losses to the United States. So it keeps trying to restore what is unrestorable - U.S. "leadership" (read: hegemony) in the world-system. This makes the United States a very dangerous actor.

Posted by: Maracatu | Aug 4 2014 12:01 utc | 19

germans .like japanese from master races to servants
Katie Pilbeam ‏@KatiePilbeamRT 20m
Germany stops export of combat equipment to Russia,going beyond EU sanctions blocking future defense contracts.Deal was worth about $134mln

Posted by: brian | Aug 4 2014 13:13 utc | 20

1990 - Gulf War Begins, Demonization of Islam ("We can't wait for the Truth!")G.W.B.


you mean there are no islamic terrorists/..from the mujahadeen whko destroyed afghanistan to the jihadis trying to do the same to syria...sunni islam has become its own demon

Posted by: brian | Aug 4 2014 13:15 utc | 21

Posted by: ChipNikh | Aug 4, 2014 6:20:29 AM | 17

soveit union did not 'collapse'

nor did it 'invade' afghanistan

beware perpetuating lies

Posted by: brian | Aug 4 2014 13:17 utc | 22

I can see mr. O'Puppet is now producing more and more errors... programming failure maybe?

You know the saying "those whom gods want to destroy, they first make mad". This is it.

Let alone the good old basic rule of conduct "judge not, lest ye be judged"...

Religious or not, it is universal wisdom:

Matt. 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."

This is the verse so many use to try to shame Christians for discerning poor behavior, ethics, morals, and values: the "judge not lest ye be judged" verse. So many times people, mostly teens have emailed us saying "judge not lest you be judged" regarding our analysis reports which reveal to their parents the content of movies. Using only Matt 7:1 is entirely incomplete. This verse is not speaking to not judging at all -- it is speaking to not judging unfairly or any other cheap and selfish way. Read the rest of the story ...

Matt 7:2-5 "For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged [if we judge with an evil heart or dark intent, His judgment of us will reflect it; if we judge nobly with honesty and justice, His judgment of us will reflect that, too], and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you [if we use extremes or exaggerations or other ignoble means, His judgment of us will reflect it and judging with fairness and compassion will garner likewise in His judgment of us]. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye [point out his sins, "minor" in Jesus' example here] and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye [our own sins, even and especially those we will not admit, magnified by our selective blindness]? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' [tell him of his "minor" sins] when all the time there is a plank in your own eye [that there are greater or the same sins in our own lives which we do nothing about or think we are above]? You hypocrite* [pointing out the sins of others while by pretense thinking of ourselves as above sin], first take the plank out of your own eye [sincerely ask the Lord for forgiveness and learn and live the Truth and Light by His Word], and then you will see clearly [be in a righteous position] to remove the speck from your brother's eye [to judge and to help him out of his bondage to sin]." At Galilee, the Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan, Jesus was talking to the multitudes gathered there after hearing of His message and of His healings to beseech them to not become like the pharisees and hypocrites who think they are above sin.

Posted by: T2015 | Aug 4 2014 13:22 utc | 23

It's all a ball of delusion,as the banal and noble words fall on the ashes of reality,the reality of a brainwashed American body politic being bribed by dough and false history.
Nobody wants our cars(except flag wavers maybe),we have outsourced our manufacturing,our borders under attack from the children of NAFTA,our government a joke,and they are pointing fingers?Definite delusion.

Posted by: dahoit | Aug 4 2014 13:23 utc | 24

@ brian, what you are talking about is NOT Sunnis, but Takfiris/Salafis (heretics who erronously or deliberately keep calling themselves Sunni). that is simple disinfo and anyone who repeats that is feeding it. You for example.

Both Mujahedeens and "ISIS" are US/UK products, that has nothing to do with Islam of any flavor at all. You are selling a fallacy here.

Posted by: T2015 | Aug 4 2014 13:26 utc | 25

If this is true, it looks like the trickle is turning into a river.

​Over 400 Ukrainian troops cross into Russia for refuge — RT News

More than 400 Ukrainian troops have been allowed to cross into Russia after requesting sanctuary. It’s the largest, but not the first, case of desertion into Russia by Ukrainian soldiers involved in Kiev’s military crackdown in the east of the country.

Posted by: Fran | Aug 4 2014 13:32 utc | 26

Neil Clark ‏@NeilClark66 10m
Letter in Daily Mail: 'How poor our homegrown TV news is...How refreshing to watch Russia Today & Al Jazeera'
Gatekeepers won't like that.

Posted by: brian | Aug 4 2014 13:34 utc | 27

and weapons:

Oh Goody!! Because we sure as hell need more of those, don't we? And don't hand me that bull that Russia needs the weapons to protect itself from The Big Bad West. That's what its nukes are for, remember? Everyone keeps harping on about how Putin is no lightweight and if he's pushed into a corner he'll blow the planet up. Well, if that's true, then the weapons production b touts as a positive Russian economic indicator are irrelevant and redundant — unless, of course, they're for export to countries like Iraq and Syria.

If you change your perspective from anti-imperialism to the broader perspective of anti-tyranny perhaps cheering weapons production as a positive economic indicator wouldn't be considered consistent with anti-tyranny. Anti-tyranny precludes imperialism since imperialism is merely an outgrowth of tyranny.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Aug 4 2014 13:36 utc | 28

@28 Obama said Russia doesn't make anything. They do. You're trying to change the subject.

Posted by: dh | Aug 4 2014 13:44 utc | 29

The pronouncements which Obama's puppetmasters force him to make become increasingly foolhardy. Is Obama aware of how stupid they are making him look? Probably. What's a puppet to do? These remarks re: Russia are surely as foolish as Gas Station McCain's. With this, Obama is at par with Sarah Palin's "Rearing of Putin's Head".

What we have is the same Foreign Policy we'd have had with any other front man or woman. Palin or Obama No difference in resultant Bilderburg policy.

Propping up Ukraine NATO State, Proxy Terra Army in ISIS, IS; and Israel Uber Alles.

Posted by: Fast Freddy | Aug 4 2014 13:46 utc | 30

USAID aid to trigger unrest:
RT ‏@RT_com 22m
REVEALED: US sent young Latinos to Cuba to trigger political unrest

Posted by: brian | Aug 4 2014 13:52 utc | 31

'While Creative Associates declined to comment, USAID said that the US bodies helped the Cuban people “to determine their future.”

“USAID and the Obama administration are committed to supporting the Cuban people's desire to freely determine their own future," the agency told AP. "USAID works with independent youth groups in Cuba on community service projects, public health, the arts and other opportunities to engage publicly, consistent with democracy programs worldwide."
the joke here is the continued use of the word 'free' american fetish..US bodies dont help people but they do lie like theres no tomorrow

Posted by: brian | Aug 4 2014 13:55 utc | 32

@16 I know who. Men who want war, and children who want to seem like they want a fight.

I assume Obama is the latter.

Posted by: Massinissa | Aug 4 2014 14:07 utc | 33


Im sure Gatekeepers are fine with Qatari based Al Jazeera.

Russia Today, though, not so much. Im surprised it hasnt been banned in more countries yet.

Posted by: Massinissa | Aug 4 2014 14:11 utc | 34

Trolls normally try to derail topics. Thats why theyre called 'trolls'.

Posted by: Massinissa | Aug 4 2014 14:12 utc | 35

What may be more alarming than Obama unblikingly repeating the (erroneous)talking points he has been given, is that (1) these are the talking points he has been given and (2) no one on Team Obama is "watching his back" as he spouts this sort of trash-talk foolishness. Yes, it's also self-aggradizing not only because it denigrates Russia, but also because it reinforces the notion that "we won and Russia lost" "end of history" trash-talk -- a fairy tale that only works domestically, since the rest of the world is "hip to our tricks" -- even more so, since 2008.

He's also continuing to carefully avoid mention of the BRIC bank. Are American policies designed to cripple the BRIC bank by "crushing" Russia? and/or is this a "caution" to the other underlings to avoid pissing off "the boss."

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Aug 4 2014 14:24 utc | 36

@34 I think fascism can't escape national myths, and America's ideas of a free press and elections are so inbred that they can't be done away with because then it couldn't be American. You can bully, make absurd claims about national security, and engineer ownership of outlets, but it can't be shut down. It would be akin to Hitler announcing the lingua franca of new Germany would be English.

The fascists in the U.S. can never subvert Ben Franklin. He's too clear and not lost to the mists of history and illiteracy like a Jesus type who can be subverted.

Posted by: NotTimothyGeithner | Aug 4 2014 14:30 utc | 37

My information goes back a couple of years, but whenI was in Moscow lastt winter I ran into a number of immigrants, including a taxi driver from Senegal, an American banker who had set up an appartment rental business for visitors, and a Mormon kid who had overstayed his visa and didn't want to go home. I had the inpression that Russia had become a land of opportunity for ordinary people. The language is forbidding for people who don't have a gift for it, though, and I doubt foreigners can ever truly integrate, though their children do. I'm a bit surprised by the degree of Obama's ignorance. I'm thinking that in college he was quick but not deep.

Posted by: Knut | Aug 4 2014 14:38 utc | 38

A tiny look at recent past.

Obama has *always* been luke-warm or straight out frozen-hostile towards Russia (and Europe.) Here is one ‘official’ doc from 2010 that outlines some positive aspects of US-Russia relations. Of course mealy-mouthed, etc. Presents the public picture of four years ago.

Note the ref. to Ukraine, and quote: Virulently anti-Western speeches from Putin including one in which he compared U.S. policies to those of the Third Reich.

In 2008, after Obama's election, (Mevdevev was pres. then) the NYT wrote:

just one extra link, 2008, MSM stuff:

Posted by: Noirette | Aug 4 2014 15:53 utc | 39

Such a penus you are.

I'm sure if more people in Latin america realized they could immigrate to Russia they would.
Haitians are literally dying to go....Anywhere.

Posted by: Fernando | Aug 4 2014 16:03 utc | 40

It's not that O'Bummer is ignorant or deluded, it's that in order to pursue its dangerous policy of global hegemonism the US Government must ensure that the American people, the stupid majority at least, are ignorant and deluded. Here's the intended interpretation:

"No folks, we're not messing with a formidable nuclear-armed superpower on whom we depend for transportation to the International Space Station. We're just telling these moribund Russian peasants how to behave themselves, so don't worry your pretty head about Russian push-back. As for the Chinese, we'll handle them: they just need a firm hand."

Posted by: CanSpeccy | Aug 4 2014 18:53 utc | 41


Well, when the investigation is over, the rebels can go back to spanking the Ukrainian killers. Better sooner than later as clearly Poroshenko's only taking advantage of the hysteria to continue his campaign of ethnic cleansing.

Posted by: Cynthia | Aug 4 2014 20:00 utc | 42


Obama is like an angry, belligerent guy in a bar. Any time a fight breaks out, he has to jump into it, without even knowing what it's all about.

Posted by: Cynthia | Aug 4 2014 20:03 utc | 43

Susan Sunflower@36,

Yes, in the final analysis, all this saber rattling in DC is about trying to maintain the supremacy of the proverbial, almighty US Dollar. Iraq dared to want to sell its oil in Euros, and it was invaded. Libya was spearheading a gold based pan-African currency and it was invaded. I think the BRICS though, will survive as China, Russia and India (surprise, surprise) are major economic engines now.

Posted by: Cynthia | Aug 4 2014 20:13 utc | 44

it is obama's birthday today.. i wonder if he will say something stupid today as well..

@36 susan - good question in your 2nd paragraph.

@43 cynthia.. that is how i see it too, although the usa has become increasingly more dangerous. it is now like a rabid dog that will attack without reason. it seems the usa at this point is essentially devoid of leadership.. hey - obama is a great talker - very eloquent, but more is needed then an empty suit.. this is the huge difference between obama and putin.. one opens his mouth and says all sorts of stupid shit to an ignorant audience, while the other appears to do much the opposite..

Posted by: james | Aug 4 2014 21:38 utc | 45


And the citizens of the EU are going to get reemed even more due to the sanctions that the US has prodded their govts. into implementing against Russia. Germany just cancelled a big military contract with Russia. I wonder when the layoffs are gonna start hitting the EU commoners. The money will keep flowing as far as high finance is concerned but the average workers unlucky enough to be in the sanctioned sectors will likely be fiscally damaged.

All because big western energy corps. want to control the ukraine to stop Russia supplying gas to the EU....

Posted by: really | Aug 4 2014 22:34 utc | 46

Is there a reason you actually listen to what comes out of the Obamanation's mouth? What Donald Duck says is far more interesting.

Empire needs regime change in Moscow as per the Brzezinski doctrine, (read his books from the 1970s). It is all about the global government that they want and don't really try and hide.

Empire can declare it tomorrow after manufacturing a notable global disaster. That is especially true now that the Muslim areas have been broken down into tiny, digestible chunks. So pretty much all nations states will be reasonably easy to absorb into it, with the exception of Russia and China. Thus regime change is a MUST!

And that my friends is why the Obamanation declared Cold War 2

Posted by: Robert Gorden | Aug 4 2014 23:34 utc | 47

I have finally found an article in the Western press (CSMonitor) that doesn't turn truth entirely on its head (perhaps just on its ear...).

There are many problems with it: it remains full of some of the worst anti-Russian tropes and relies on some pro-Ukrainian "experts" who have the gall to repeat the "Putin is irrational" trope. Moreover, it tries to spin the political collapse of the bankrupt, CIA-sponsored junta war as "weariness" amongst a "pro-war" population. Utter garbage, unless the author is referring to the handful of Nazis encamped in Kiev, and some of the more eager (and ignorant) ultra-nationalists in the West who will soon be left in economic no-mans land: under the IMF, but outside of the EU.

But plenty of irrefutable truth shines through and makes it clear that the rebels are winning and will continue to win - at least to the degree that they can hold their own, and maintain their position against an extremely shaky Ukrainian government that has neither legitimacy nor support among the people it claims to represent.

Some of the more honest sections:

...nerves may indeed be fraying in Ukraine, which has seen increasing signs of war-weariness – including a reported defection of 400 Ukrainian troops over the weekend...the flight of more than 400 Ukrainian troops and border guards to Russia Sunday night, after running out of food and ammunition, to suggest that morale is crumbling among ill-trained and poorly supplied Ukrainian forces...

The increasingly desperate situation of the 79th brigade led some of the soldiers' wives and mothers in the unit's home town of Mykolaiv to protest against Kiev's failure...

...growing antiwar and anti-conscription sentiment around Ukraine. They have also claimed that some Ukrainian military units, which have not been paid for weeks, have refused to fight.

...a certain battle fatigue is becoming evident in Ukrainian society..."The first wave of military euphoria is dying down. The military solution doesn't seem to be appearing," he says. "We do not have a strong leadership that can guarantee extended mobilization... The economy is not geared for war, the state is near bankruptcy, and people are confused about how it's all going to end."

...the optimism expressed in Kiev that the war will end soon with the liberation of Donetsk and Luhansk is probably unfounded...

"The Ukrainian operation is rapidly starting to look like a classic counterinsurgency war, where the rebels can blend in with the civilian population and strike from behind," he says. "Such wars usually turn out to be unwinnable, and the rebels prevail just by continuing to exist. Think of Vietnam, our Afghanistan, your Afghanistan, or Iraq. Even the most modern, well-prepared armies find it difficult to sustain operations all the way to victory. And Ukraine's Army is far from the most capable one to try it."

It appears that the Ukrainian state is quickly collapsing. Upcoming "elections" - under much duress, no doubt, and with the East excluded - are set to still leave the country politically fractured, disunited, and unable to make any moves in any direction. The Maidan is not turning out to be - obviously - the
"rebirth" of the so-called Ukrainian nation, nor can it even be called a turning point (either positive or negative) in any sense. It seems instead to have been just another giant tumble down the cliff of the crippled nation, a fall triggered by the invasion of Western political and economic carpet-baggers post-1991. At this point, the Ukraine is now the only post-Soviet Republic unable to free itself from the social and political decay brought on in the 1990s. And it shows no sign of doing so. As it is, Maidan has exacebated all of the country's problems: it has traded CIA-front groups for the CIA itself. It has turned its oligarchs from the tyrants of industry to the tyrants of everything. The East/West split has developed into full-fledged civil war. Its criminals and fascists are no longer sidelined, but have taken to center field. Its parliament is as split as ever, and its economic prospects have gone from extremely poor to non-existent. This is the "freedom" the Maidan, courtesy of the CIA and Western oligarchs like Omidyar, has brought.

But then, this is plan B (or is it plan A?) of the post-Cold War plans for the region. Turing the two most populous Soviet Republics against each other is an enormous geo-political victory for the United States and the UK. If it succeeds, of course. A more likely course is that it will backfire, and backfire big time. For whatever the Atlanticists have succeeded in doing in the Ukraine (which is not much, and quickly becoming less and less) it cannot counter-balance the acceleration of BRICs ties, the Sino-Russian condominium, the Western defeat in Syria and the strengthening of the Resistance Axis (sure to be further strengthened by the idiotic and barbaric Israeli campaign in Gaza).

Meanwhile, the US has nothing more to point to for national success except an imaginary number climbing ever higher...


In other news - Crust E. WhoreHole shows his perfect hypocrisy... and the sun came up in the morning.

Posted by: guest77 | Aug 4 2014 23:40 utc | 48

The BRIC's represent the first "real" challenge to American global control since "the fall of the Soviet Union" -- however, the BRIC's, in fact, represent a much greater challenge -- The United State is "over-extended" having bled itself and its economy to the point of weakness -- I wouldn't count on the loyalty of our multinationals if they can make a quicker buck/cut a better deal elsewhere.
The "consent" has largely been successfully manufactured -- and Obama can talk dismissively about Russia's weakness without actual damage to the belief in many American minds that "Putin must be stopped" ...
In real life, outside the think tanks, I'm doubtful how much Wall Street/financial sector is willing to gamble on our coming out on top of a confrontation with China, Russia, Brazil and India (and half a dozen smaller defectors and would-be defectors from the American sphere of influence.)
We'll "always" have Japan and the EU, South Korea, the Philippines and various other previously conquered states ... until, I'm guessing, the day we don't. Our economy's reliance on the financial sector and vaguely "technology", oh, and the pyramid/ponzi scheme known as "the service economy" I suspect, makes us considerably more vulnerable than we are willing to admit, and the re-emerging financial sector embarassingly seems still regularly beset with concerning practices (the auto loan industry, the real estate scavengers rental property "boom" and the jobless "recovery" which is unlikely to reignite building starts and/or too much travel/entertainment, as people continue to struggle underemployed and/or underpaid). (Let's not talk about that Ford miracle, 'kay?)
"We" remind me of my neighbor's small yippy dog who barks at me in my yard (yet again, multiple times a day, frantically, while his German shepherd companion just watches silently).
Threats/promises of WWIII seem to have faded temporarily at least. I suspect at least some of this is tritely a matter of "the best defense is a strong offense" ...

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Aug 4 2014 23:45 utc | 49

The United States, as an entity, is capable only of lying. Like Israel, this phantom nation is an enemy of the truth - in every possible sense.

The US is an illusion of falsehoods, imaginary premises and groupthink, resting on rapacious, titanic, hidden violence of an unthinkable scale, conducted over a span extending more than three centuries.

This fact does not automatically confer virtues on their opponents. It does, however, give the ability to know that when abstractions for human liberty are invoked by "America", that the US is looking to destroy that which they cannot steal or enslave, in any given instance.

The truth is the true enemy of the US and of Israel. Were it permitted a moments worth of circulation and regard, these two demons would be revealed, agonizing as they writhe in the sunlight.

Posted by: Jeremiah | Aug 5 2014 0:39 utc | 50

Obama sold his soul and is now America's chief clown. He and his gang are monumentally arrogant, deluded, unprincipled, and silly. They should be proud of themselves for engaging the machinery of America's destruction by foolishly harassing the Great Bear of the North and the Great Dragon of the East. Nonetheless, I enjoyed reading this article. It is a jewel of insight and wisdom....

Posted by: James H Trusty | Aug 5 2014 1:10 utc | 51

@ Posted by: Maracatu | Aug 4, 2014 8:01:35 AM | 19

Yes, exactly -- thank you for that .... History will not be kind.

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Aug 5 2014 3:11 utc | 52

Someone characterized the white house as "shooting from the hip," which is generous. They just put out some bullshit and assume that the msm will repeat it unchallenged, and they do. It's all so lazy. I suppose you can't have an imperial hegemon without brutal disgusting arrogance and ignorance.

Posted by: Crest | Aug 5 2014 3:41 utc | 53

Russian Spring

Donetsk. 08/04/2014-23:23

Question: Media circulate rumors about some combatants’ unit “D.O.L.G” (“D.U.T.Y.”), which took prisoners 702 Ukrainian servicemen under city Shakhtersk


To begin with, no “detachment D.O.L.G.” has ever existed in ranks of Donetsk People Republic military forces. Nonsense entirely. /BLOCKQUOTE>

Question: “South Caldron”


This is no our responsibility zone. This is Lugansk People Republic. We fight heavily at the moment at the “neck” of this caldron, and we have slammed it shut – yet we are not those who get “cream of the milk”. /BLOCKQUOTE>

Question: Future plans


By the way, some thousands of quality Soviet Army vatniks (quilted cotton jacket) have been ordered for combatants of Donetsk People Republic into the fall. /BLOCKQUOTE>

Posted by: Fete | Aug 5 2014 3:44 utc | 54

What are these "leaders" thinking about? The US govt. Is playing global russian roulette. They are actually proposing a vote on this suicidal asinine bill. Someone breakout the straight jackets for the US govt. WTF?

Posted by: gottabkiddinme | Aug 5 2014 4:48 utc | 55

And I thought John McCain was the official Team America ignorant troll. Obama got jealous and is stealing McCain's lines.

Posted by: fairleft | Aug 5 2014 5:38 utc | 56

In his latest piece on the downing of MH17, Robert Parry basically says that his US intelligence contacts have decided that the Ukes did it. The "out" used from this being a false flag op is that the Ukes thought MH17 was a Russian spy plane. Also, Parry suggests that not all of the junta was in on this terrorist act (which seems to be the prevailing view among Russian observers).

Angela Merkel has made Germany look very stupid by using the downing of MH17 as a pretext to impose the first sanctions that significantly harm German business.

Posted by: Demian | Aug 5 2014 5:57 utc | 57

It's frighteningly delusional that the US feels it can contain China. The kind of hubris that makes nuclear war seem almost probable.

Posted by: jeff | Aug 5 2014 6:46 utc | 58

Posted by: Demian | Aug 5, 2014 1:57:19 AM | 56

Parry is obviously fed a counter narrative just like CNN's Barbara Starr. At present, we can't even be sure that the MH17 was brought down by a missile.
Possibly, the US want to put some pressure on Parubyi's Ukrainian Security Council.

The cui bono has shifted as the cut off Ukrainian army supply lines seem to be related to the - now - lacking shield of civilian planes. So maybe "rebels" were too agressive in search for a no fly zone, or some Ukrainians attempted a false flag.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 5 2014 7:04 utc | 59

Demian, somebody,
If there was even one SU-25 tailing the MH17 plane the Ukies would have known that it wasn't a Russian spy plane. Furthermore, I blew up that photo Oui posted of the side of the cockpit - absolutely bullet holes all over it, I mean without a doubt. Whatever that means, I don't know, but the BUK story is discredited quite a bit imo. To me the most important aspect of this story is US Intelligence knows exactly what happened to that plane and won't reveal it.

Posted by: okie farmer | Aug 5 2014 9:22 utc | 60

Why have west become so silent on the crash? Could it be because the evidence is that the ukraine army is behind it?

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 5 2014 10:14 utc | 61


I agree. That cockpit was shelled by the su-25's cannon. The cockpit wreckage broke away and hit the ground first as the remainder of the aircraft continued to fly and break apart.

Posted by: really | Aug 5 2014 10:21 utc | 62


In one way you are correct, the Soviets didnt fly in under cover of darkness and assassinate the Afghan president, since Zbigniew Brezinski opened that can of whoopass years before with a covert program just like the program that overthrew the president of Iran. So it was a 'defensive' Soviet invasion, but you have confused the Muj loyalist warlords fighting off the Soviet invasion with the Salafist-trained Taliban in the south who fought a war of words to overturn the chaotic Mujopalypse after the Soviets pulled out, the Taliban themselves not jihadis at all, meeting with Cheney/Bush in Houston in 1997 to seal an oil deal. It was only after Cheney betrayed the Taliban and invaded Afghanistan that they

Posted by: Chip Nihk | Aug 5 2014 11:09 utc | 63

...became jihadis, not in the Salafist ISIS sense, but the Davey Crockett/Daniel Boone kind of patriot freedom fighter, nevermind their social beliefs, which are none of America's business, just look at the legions of strippers and whores and prostitutes and molested schoolchildren in Exceptional Land.

The mote in thy eye is as big as a lodgepole.

'Islamic Jihad' is a MIC marketing perversion of perfectly understandable blowback.

Posted by: Chip Nihk | Aug 5 2014 11:15 utc | 64

soviets never invaded afghanistan period...they were asked by the govt to enter and help them : initially the russians refused...maybe they smelled a trap..eventuall they did enter,....but thats not an invasion...the US entry into iraq was an invasion.


Posted by: brian | Aug 5 2014 11:20 utc | 65

"In his latest piece on the downing of MH17, Robert Parry basically says that his US intelligence contacts have decided that the Ukes did it. The "out" used from this being a false flag op is that the Ukes thought MH17 was a Russian spy plane.

Also, Parry suggests that not all of the junta was in on this terrorist act (which seems to be the prevailing view among Russian observers)."

Posted by: Demian | Aug 5, 2014 1:57:19 AM | 56


"Parry is obviously fed a counter narrative just like CNN's Barbara Starr. "

Posted by: somebody | Aug 5, 2014 3:04:50 AM | 57

So clearly Robert Parry is, like fellow CIA stooges Juan Cole and Sy Hersh, merely operating as a conduit for disinfo from some CIA faction.

Parry's job appears to be to provide an alternative to the original Empire+Nazi "blame Russia/Strelkov etc" narrative.

Parry's new CIA-supplied narrative is an equally dishonest narrative, (what is known sometimes as "a limited hangout"), to distract people from arriving at the obvious conclusion that both the Nazis in Kiev and the US (and possibly the Dutch) conspired to deliberately destroy MH17 and blame it on Russia/Strelkov etc

no doubt there'll be a reply soon from one or both of the usual tag-team of fake-left cretinous clowns telling us how anyone arriving at the obvious conclusion stated above, regarding the "creating a limited hangout" antics of fake-left CIA-conduit Robert Parry, is "Worse than HITLER!!!"

Posted by: Chortle | Aug 5 2014 11:52 utc | 66

Posted by: Chortle | Aug 5, 2014 7:52:08 AM | 64

Wikipedia - limited hangout

The stuff fed to Parry seems to be disinfo, saying it was a Buk no matter who operated it. The Barbara Starr stuff is "limited hangout" saying the US are watching but are not in the driving seat, which they are.

So the plane that had to evade to Sweden on the 18th was a spy plane and not a stealth fighter jet.

Vienna's civilian flight radar went blind beginning of June by the way - twice. Planes disappeared from the radar screens.

First NATO suspected their own electronic exercise in distracting enemy radar in Hungary was to blame. Flight controllers in Budapest said they had been prewarned so they had no problem. Who warned them and why could not be found out.

Beim ersten Blackout am Donnerstag wurde durch die Flugsicherung Karlsruhe das Zentrum für Luftoperationen der NATO (Combined Air Operations Centre Uedem, CAOC) in Üdem in Nordrhein-Westfalen über "Störungen im Zivilluftverkehr" informiert. Auch die Luftverkehrszentralen Wien, Prag und Bratislava meldeten Ausfälle. Die NATO-Offiziere in Üdem vermuteten als Verursacher sofort eine Übung für elektronische Kampfführung in Ungarn, von der sie auch selbst erst kurz zuvor erfahren hätten. Dort soll das elektronische Stören von Fliegererkennungssystemen (Transponder) geübt worden sein.

Then there was a second incidence. Planes disappeared from the screens in Vienna, Prague, Munich and Karlsruhe.

Der Wiederholungsfall trat nur wenig später am Dienstag um 13.30 Uhr ein: Wieder verschwanden Flugzeuge von den Radarschirmen – diesmal in Wien, Prag, München und Karlsruhe. Die Störung dauerte bis 15 Uhr. Die vereinbarte Intervention der NATO-Stäbe gegen den in den eigenen Reihen vermuteten Störsender kam nicht zustande. Das Luftoperationszentrum in Üdem teilte mit, dass keine Übung im betroffenen Gebiet stattgefunden habe. Diesmal waren nur Flugzeuge in großer Höhe betroffen. Doch auch das ist laut Analyse dramatisch genug: "Lückenhafte bis streckenweise keine Darstellung ziviler Luftfahrzeuge auf den Radarschirmen der zivilen Flugsicherung. Dadurch kam es zu einer essenziellen Gefährdung der zivilen Flugsicherung."

Jetzt herrscht Ratlosigkeit. Denn zu einem elektronischen Angriff auf die Transponder wären nur Mächte wie USA, Russland, China und Indien mit ihren Satelliten fähig. Die zweite technische Möglichkeit wäre ein Cyberangriff auf den Datenverbund der Empfangsanlagen am Boden. Beide Fälle müssten als Katastrophe bezeichnet werden. Alle Beteiligten hoffen nun, dass doch noch ein übereifriger Elektronik-Krieger der NATO als Verursacher ausfindig gemacht werden kann.

The agreed intervention by NATO trying to find their own interfering transmitter, did not take place. There was no exercise in the area the center in Üdem said. Only powers like USA, Russia, China and India have the capability to interfere by satellite. Another possibility would be a cyberattack on the receivers. All these possibilities would be a catastrophe.

From July: Berlin thinks NATO is to blame.

The German government has indicated that NATO electronic warfare (EW) training exercises were responsible for civilian ATC radar display blackouts in central Europe on 5 June and 10 June 2014.

IHS Jane's has obtained the government's answer to a parliamentary question on 17 July, in which it noted that: "In the relevant time period two separate exercises by NATO forces with EW assets were conducted, in the first case by the Hungarian Air Force and in the second by the Italian Army and [undisclosed] partners."

Both exercises involved ground-based air defence radar assets and were held under the NATO Electronic Warfare Integration Period programme. The German government statement said this is "especially dedicated to test and train EW in the airspace. Further details at the moment cannot be given, as investigations by EASA and NATO are ongoing".

Posted by: somebody | Aug 5 2014 16:22 utc | 67

From the second link

Both exercises involved ground-based air defence radar assets and were held under the NATO Electronic Warfare Integration Period programme. The German government statement said this is "especially dedicated to test and train EW in the airspace. Further details at the moment cannot be given, as investigations by EASA and NATO are ongoing".

That is the supposedly Russian ground-based air defence radar that supposedly made the US spy plane go to Sweden.

It is far from clear that whoever fired the missile that hit MH17 controlled its path.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 5 2014 16:48 utc | 68

The stuff fed to Parry seems to be disinfo, saying it was a Buk no matter who operated it

The usual disinfo attempt from you-know-who above

1: Demian stated at 56 " The "out" used from this being a false flag op is that the Ukes thought MH17 was a Russian spy plane.

Also, Parry suggests that not all of the junta was in on this terrorist act"

That is the limited hangout right there. Clearly Parry 's job, in receiving and disseminating this disinfo from his CIA handlers is to spread it under the guise of being a "Leftist" commenter

and again : "saying it was a Buk no matter who operated it" is of course an attempt to create the basis for the "Limited Hangout" Parry wishes to push - Parry has no evidence whatsoever for this.

In fact the only visual evidence we have, of what looks like a bullet-hole ridden cockpit section, contradicts entirely any assertion by anyone, including (and especially) CIA-conduit Robert Parry, that it was a Buk no matter who operated it

And ALL your subsequent commentary about planes disappearing from radar is fine example of how disinfo merchants operate. It's just more disinfo/Limited Hangout nonsense.

Thank you for providing us with an example of how disinfo is cobbled together into a seemingly coherent narrative.

You are attempting to muddy the waters as much as possible, with irrelevant info (as usual) You appear to be suggesting that there is a connection between MH17 and civilian ATC reporting civ planes disappearing from the Civ radar. For your info to have some relevance, for it not to be just an attempt to cobble together some alternative limited-hangout-like narrative to the obvious one I stated above, there would have to exist some reports of MH17 disappearing from ATC radar. But there iaren't, are there? Do you know of any reliable reports concerning MH17 dropping off the radar? No of course you don't, but you decided to mention it anyway so as to further muddy the already murky waters

So far no one but you has made any statement suggesting that MH17 disappeared from the radar: not the Russians not the Ukies, not the US . . . no one. So your introducing "disappearing Civ aircraft" is a pure red-herring.

So your introduction of it into a conversation about limited hangout/disinfo is itself an attempt to spread disinfo imo.

So again: Thank you for providing us with an example of how bullshit-disinfo is cobbled together into a seemingly coherent narrative.

So the plane that had to evade to Sweden on the 18th was a spy plane and not a stealth fighter jet.

and again: introducing an unconnected event (unconnected to the shoot-down of MH17) is noted and appreciated as an example of how disinfo merchants operate - so thanks you once again for demonstrating how disinfo merchants attempt to muddy the waters by introducing irrelevant nonsense in conversations such as this one.

Posted by: Chortle | Aug 5 2014 16:51 utc | 69

It is far from clear that whoever fired the missile that hit MH17 controlled its path.

It is far far from clear that MH17 was brought down by any BUK system, or any missile at all***, as you well know - but wft, why NOT throw it in there anyway, since you are throwing in all the other dis/mis-info crap.

In for a enny in for a pound, eh?


**** (unless you have suddenly decided to re-classify machine-gun bullets as "missiles", which would be very very dishonest, even by your standards)

Posted by: Chortle | Aug 5 2014 16:55 utc | 70

Actually there seems to be a modification of the BUK system that can be used to shoot down missiles

Another modification to the Buk missile system was started in 1992 with work carried out between 1994 and 1997 to produce the 9K37M1-2 Buk-M1-2,[6] which entered service in 1998.[10] This modification introduced a new missile, the 9M317, which offered greater kinematic performance over the previous 9M38, which could still be used by the Buk-M1-2. Such sharing of the missile type caused a transition to a different GRAU designation, 9K317, which has been used independently for all later systems. The previous 9K37 series name was also preserved for the complex, as was the "Buk" name. The new missile, as well as a variety of other modifications, allowed the system to shoot down ballistic missiles and surface targets, as well as enlarging the "performance and engagement envelope" (zone of danger for potential attack) for more traditional targets like aircraft and helicopters.[6] The 9K37M1-2 Buk-M1-2 also received a new NATO reporting name distinguishing it from previous generations of the Buk system; this new reporting name was the SA-17 Grizzly. The export version of the 9K37M1-2 system is called "Ural" (Russian: "Урал")

So quite possibly "rebels" used a Buk to shoot down the SU25 flying under MH17 whilst Ukrainians used a similar system to shoot down the missile. That would rhyme with Russian noting heightened Ukrainian radar activity, the SU25, and the Ukrainian Buk. It would also rhyme with Putin's parable of two hunters shooting a person by mistake, so none of them being responsable. It would also explain the jet not being hit fully just the cockpit. And it would explain the cockpit door being hit from two sides.

The "machine gun" bullet holes don't prove anything. Same holes are made by shrapnel.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 5 2014 17:22 utc | 71


So you have decided to double-down on the bullshit, by flooding us with more bullshit. Good man, exactly what I have come to expect from you. Pile bullshit on top of bullshit to confuse as much as possible. It's your usual M.O.

The "machine gun" bullet holes don't prove anything. Same holes are made by shrapnel.

No the same sort of round-holes found in the pic of the cock-pit section are NOT generally produced by shrapnel at all, and it is highly misleading of you to imply that they are. But again that is your usual M.O.

Shrapnel generally doesn't make round holes - shrapnel is shattered metal fragments, these can take various shapes, almost never round-shaped, and the metal can be pre-scored to help enure that resultant shrapnel takes different shapes (diamond, triangular etc) but I know of no predominately round-shaped shrapnel. And certainly not produced by the BUK system not by the Air-to-Air missile alleged to have been fired by the SU25.

If you know of such shrapnel that results in round-holes in the target, then do enlighten us as to what sort of munitions make such shaped shrapnel that would create round holes in the cockpit. My guess is you won't rely to that request, and will as usual just post another comment chock-full of obfuscatory bullshit, as usual.

Bullets on the other hand DO leave predominately round-shaped holes, exactly of the sort found in the picture of the cockpit.


"So quite possibly . . . blah blah blah"

Back to your usual obfuscatory nonsense. Well done.

So quite possibly the man in the moon came down and poked holes in the cockpit - but he didn't show up on radar because either he's a stealth man-in-the-moon, or the NATO forces had been re-warned of his appearance and blanked out the Civilian Radar, in order to fool the Russians, eh?

That's about as valid a statement as any you have made so far.

Posted by: Chortle | Aug 5 2014 18:11 utc | 72

The "machine gun" bullet holes don't prove anything. Same holes are made by shrapnel.

Yeah whatever - the bullet holes suggest that there were actually bullets involved because the same holes are NOT generally created by shrapnel at all.

the bullshit never stops with you,. does it?

Posted by: Chortle | Aug 5 2014 18:13 utc | 73

You really post a lot an enormous amount of crap

Even this bit of MSM bullshit "analysis" from the NYT admits that the shrapnel from the BUK system missile is diamond-shaped

After the burnout of motors, the missile, which would then weigh about 800 pounds, would approach the targeted aircraft and a proximity fuze would detonate its warhead, causing its sleeves to shatter into diamond-shaped bits about the size of a quarter. Depending on the model, the standoff for the blast might be 30 to 100 meters, Mr. Foster said, or about 100 to 300 feet.

When even the execrable NYT is more honest than you are, it really is time to give up and admit you were just bullshitting all along

Posted by: Chortle | Aug 5 2014 18:28 utc | 74

Even the OSCE guy interviewed by Canadian TV said those holes looked like bullet-holes to him

So who would any intelligent person be inclined to listen to:

  • the OSCE guy with MIL experience, who personally saw the bullet-holes up close


  • the well-known proven disinfo artist @65,66,&69, well-known for piling bullshit upon bullshit in order to muddy the waters?

Tough call, eh? ;-)

Posted by: Chortle | Aug 5 2014 18:36 utc | 75

fragmentation warheads

bullets, right?

Posted by: somebody | Aug 5 2014 20:52 utc | 76

See 75 above ;-D

Posted by: Priseless | Aug 5 2014 21:44 utc | 77


Oh very impressive, at least until one actually clicks the link you provided . . .

So you're reduced now to claiming that it was NOT a buk system with its diamond shaped shrapnel, but some sort of unknown munition, fired by unknown party (the man in the moon no doubt, the perfidious bastard, gets around, don't he?) which contained tungsten balls?

Well, gee, you sure changed your tune very quickly.

First it was "Definitely a buk system , probably fired by rebels",

and now, when pressed for evidence toback up the copious BS, you switch to:

"Unknown hitherto unmentioned munition, fired by unknown party, but definitely filled with tungsten balls"?

Or are you now going to claim the BUK fires tungsten-ball loaded warheads, does it?

Since when? Do tell. . . . we're dying to know.

Or is that just more BS from you? (I'd bet "more BS" myself, thats your MO after all: when caught BS-ing, double down, or even triple down in your case. Drown em in bullshit, eh? Thats your motto it seems . . . )

Posted by: Chortle | Aug 5 2014 22:01 utc | 78

Buk System technical description

70kg high-explosive fragmentation warhead with radar proximity and contact fusing system

All I am saying, bullet holes might just as well have come from a fragmentation warhead.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 5 2014 22:07 utc | 79

Doesnt seems to got that good for the "rebels", Russia want UNSC to gather.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 5 2014 22:13 utc | 80

You do realise that you could come up with a thousand alternatives to diamond shaped shrapnel or a thousand alternatives to air to air missile or even a thousand alternatives to bullets, but its all just more of the usual bullshit you have become famous for, unless and until you can actually show that either the ukies or the rebels had those munitions on that day, and are likely to have used them against MH17.


You DO realise that, right?

Posted by: Chortle | Aug 5 2014 22:14 utc | 81

79 oh you mean the tugnstenball loaded warhead that the BUK system does not even have?

THAT non existant tungstenball loaded buk warhead that you just invented right this second ?

Oh well, since you put it that way . . .


Seriously . . . you should quit while you're ahead. You really are making yourself look totally ridiculous, and I didn't even think that possible, but oh boy, you sure proved me wrong on that score, eh?

Posted by: Chortle | Aug 5 2014 22:20 utc | 82

Yeoman work here by Chortle, as he calls himself today, completely hi-jacking the thread and dragging it into a scrapyard of discredited esoterica.

The only interesting aspect of Parry's article is that, having already shown that neither the Russians nor the Donbas regional militias could have carried out the attack, he tells us that his sources in the government admit that the US is backing away from the direct charges that its Ukrainian surrogates have made. In other words the excuse for war is being dropped. He also tells us that in Washington too they are coming around to our way of thinking, which was, from the first, that Kiev was likely to be responsible for this atrocity.

For most of us this is good. Just as it was good, last year, when the sarin attack story began to collapse (again, just as predicted on one of these boards sponsored by b.

But none of this was good enough for the lunatic currently calling itself Chortle who insists that anyone not accepting, in all details, his pet theory is either a fake leftist or a CI Agent. To the latter category he consigned Seymour Hersh and Robert Parry, along with Snowden and Greenwald with Russell Brand to cheer them up.

Of course quite apart from wasting enormous amounts of space, and our time, Chortle (as he calls himself today) is completely wrecking a discussion that could very well have pulled in some of the shrewd, expert and thoughtful people who come here to comment. Nor is it without interest that Chortle (ahcht)is identifying, as dangerous and corrupt sources, precisely those writers who the CIA most dislikes and whose work it most fears (didn't I mention that Chomsky is another of Chortle's suspected agents?)

Funny that, isn't it: the resident troll smothering the discussion, abusing our colleagues in this search for the truth, and telling us to distrust exactly the same people that the intelligence agencies want us to distrust.

Posted by: bevin | Aug 5 2014 22:34 utc | 83

Parry outed himself, when he admitted his very very obvious limited hangout spiel came from his anonymous "intelligence sources"

Your shilling for yet another cia-conduit, after previously doing mighty work shilling for self-admitted cia-conduits Sy Hersh and Juan Cole, is to be expected

We know Hersh is a CIA-conduit because both he and CIA chief William Colby actually admitted it, and we know Cole kept quiet for years about being employed by the CIA before outing himself in an wierd sympathy seeking attempt to try and regain his utterly selfdestroyed credibility.

We know Parry is pushing CIA limited hangout BS because he swears by the "It was a BUK what done it, honest guvnor! My CIA sources said so and they wouldn't lie, now they?" Line, despite the testimony of the OSCE guy, with MILITARY background, on Canuck tv saying they look like bullet holes to him

But no, says bevin, lets go with Parry and his CIA-contacts, and lets ignore the only testimony we have from an eye witness of the wreckage, cos . . . oh f*ck i don't why, cos "its Parry, and hes a leftist, allegedly, and his cia sources must be telling the truth otherwise Parry would never have said it" or some nonsense.

Well done bevin, with the pseudologic

At least you are consistant in shilling for all the self-admitted cia-conduits though, I'll give you that much

Posted by: Chortle | Aug 5 2014 22:52 utc | 84

Bevin tells us, in his usual pathetically pompous fashion

Funny that, isn't it: the resident troll smothering the discussion, abusing our colleagues in this search for the truth, and telling us to distrust exactly the same people that the intelligence agencies want us to distrust.

Yeah, right, cos somebody is well known for his truthseeking - roflmao.

Hmmm, Ok, lets play bevins game:

So the intelligence agencies "want us to distrust Parry" according to the genius bevin, so parry writes an obvious limited hangout story, still maintaining that "it has to be a BUK" despite the only evidende we have indicating the opposite, wherein he admits his info is actually coming from agents within those very same intelligence agencies, that apparently want us to distrust Parry, according to the resident genius, bevin, and this, according to genius bevin is actually a reason NOT to distrust what Parry says?

That doesnt make any sense at all.

Even for you bevin, thats totally moronic reasoning.

Posted by: Chortle | Aug 5 2014 23:05 utc | 85

@ bevin

You forgot to include your usual "the guy is worse than HITLER!" rant

Posted by: Chortle | Aug 5 2014 23:35 utc | 86

OK - why are all of my posts blocked. Was I banned? Secret banning list?

Posted by: DM | Aug 5 2014 23:38 utc | 87

Vaguely analogue to the Formidable Conspiracy's crowd initially condemning Raimondo's 9/11 Terror Enigma as a heretical
limited hangout but I guess when Raimondo rightly called for BDS he was let off with a stern admonition "go and sin no more"
The Crowd consisting of one also implied a few months ago the fake sellout Greenwald was finished criticising Israel.

they/he got Rand Paul right, though, credit where due.

Posted by: truthbetold | Aug 5 2014 23:42 utc | 88


I see your post.

Posted by: really | Aug 6 2014 0:13 utc | 89

According to bevin we should all just shut up about the fact that,despite all the lies so far from US intelligence agencies regarding MH17, theres no evidence whatsoever that any BUK missile was fired by anyone at MH17.

Apparently questioning the complete lack of evidence that there was any BUK system involved at all is a very very bad thing indeedy, and only really bad and malicious utterly black-hearted people would even consider having the bad manners and lack of social grace to dare to continue to mention that complete lack of evidence concerning BUK usage

No siree, apparently, again according to Pontiff Maximus bevin, we should be eternally grateful to Robert Parry for writing down in an article what the CIA told him, assuring us that it definitely WAS a BUK system that took down MH17, despite there being no evidence so far to support that theory

And how does Parry know any of this is true?

Well you see Parry has contacts within certain US intelligence agencies, and they have assured Parry that it definitely was aBUK, although they, and Parry provide no evidence for this assertion whatsoever, and none of said agencies is even slightly known for their trustworthiness when it comes to issues concerning Ukraine or Russia

But screw all that, because Parry said it, and surely the CIA would never be so uncouth as to lie to Parry, and surely Parry would never print cia disinfo, wittingly or unwittingly, and because bevin likes parry, and Parry is infallible, as is bevin (Pope bevin, remember) so it must be a good thing, right?

Pope bevin assures us that these agencies are trying to discredit people like Parry, so obviously its a behoves all decent people to accept unquestioningly what Saint Robert Parry tells us, especially when his sources come from within those very same intel agencies which bevin assures us would like to discredit Parry.

And anyone deviating from this party line, by for example daring to choose to question what the saintly Mr Parry assures us is the honest to gods truth, (cos the cia wouldn't lie now would they), simply must be doing so purely to distract from the gospel according to Parry/CIA

so lets just ignore the fact that, despite all the previous lies of those intelligence agencies, so far theres no evidence whatsoever of any BUK system involved in this at all, cos not ingoring that seems to upset Pope bevin greatly.

And no one wants that now do they?

Posted by: Chortle | Aug 6 2014 0:23 utc | 90


Gosh yeah.

Agent Grunwald, telling us once again, in an uber-exciting thrilling "exclusive", what we have all known for years now

Wow, thrilling cutting edge journalism indeed

Next time i need someone to tell me something I already worked out for myself many many years ago, well then Glenn Greenwald will be the first person I'll go to

We can add it to the very very long list of thrilling exclusives concerning conclusions that we all worked out for ourselves years ago, so far produced by Mr Greenwald

What will goldenboy Glenn produce for us next?

Maybe next it'll be a brilliant expose concerning his snowden supplied NSA intercepts of preChristmas phone conversations between your parents, providing Cast iron proof that Santa Claus is a myth and all those presents were in fact bought by your parents, who LIED to you for years!!!!

Posted by: Chortle | Aug 6 2014 0:35 utc | 91

@Chortle #90:

questioning the complete lack of evidence that there was any BUK system involved at all is a very very bad thing indeedy

I don't think anybody questions whether a Buk system was involved. The Russians provided evidence that the Ukes moved a Buk system near Donetsk just before the shootdown. That was apparently in an attempt to make it look like the rebels had a Buk system. That a Buk system was involved in a false flag op does not mean that it was used to shoot down the plane.

What Robert Parry publishes about what his CIA sources tell him is helpful; it is not all disinformation. I think most people at MoA know how to interpret it.

Posted by: Demian | Aug 6 2014 0:47 utc | 92

I don't think anybody questions whether a Buk system was involved. 

I do.

Have yet to see any actual evidence of BUK involvement in the shootdown at all, and neither has anyone else here

The Russians, despite mentioning BUK movements in the area, provided no proof of BUK Involvement, neither have the Ukies nor the US

Russians surmised ukie buk involvement, but have provided no proof. What they did provide was apparent evidence of a machine gun equipped SU25 shadowing MH17, and the OSCE guy reported that damage looked like bullet holes

That a Buk system was involved in a false flag op does not mean that it was used to shoot down the plane

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

So far there is no actual real evidence whatsoever that a BUK shot it down.

And in fact eyewitness accounts from locals mention no tell tale signs, such as the signature smoke trail that would have been visible to eye witnesses, if a BUK were involved at all

What we also have is the OSCE guys description of what he called bullethole damage visible on the wreckage

So in fact no witness accounts of the crash and wreckage indicate BUK usage at all.

All we have is Ukie and US allegations, and MSM propaganda, all of which are completely untrustworthy

Posted by: Chortle | Aug 6 2014 1:08 utc | 93

 I think most people at MoA know how to interpret it.

Posted by: Demian | Aug 5, 2014 8:47:11 PM | 92

An unwarranted assumption on your part, imo, given the slavish devotion to the notion of Parry's saintliness displayed by some here

Posted by: Chortle | Aug 6 2014 1:12 utc | 94

Sanctions against Russia and War Edge Closer. “Truthful Resolution” to MH17 Tragedy was Not Washington’s Goal

In addition to Bociurkiw’s account, there are many other witnesses and experts who have suggested an SU-25′s 30 mm cannon as the possible culprit behind the downing of MH17 – and as these accounts and analysis begin to reach a crescendo, the West’s interest in ascertaining the truth behind the disaster appears to be at an all time low. So much emphasis was initially placed on the theory of a surface to air missile downing the aircraft that other possibilities were defacto ruled out. However these alternative possibilities were ruled out without any proper investigation or demonstrable evidence to justify doing so.

Truly Orwellian.

Don't the Dutch care that NATO killed almost a hundred of their citizens, all to get the EU to slam more sanctions on Russia? Or have the Dutch become as zombified as Americans?

Posted by: Demian | Aug 6 2014 2:34 utc | 95

Russian Spring

Oppinion: A former head of an Israeli liaison organization (“Nativ”) about situation in Ukraine and possible developments.

Yaakov Kedmi:

… but in general, the situation remains as it was. That is, out of huge Ukrainian army the battle worth are 20-25 thousands… Whether this is many or little depends on how many the battle worth combatants are out there. This number is not clear - several estimates exist. To deter 20-25 thousand half of that is enough – in assumption of competent operation of either side… Until recently, the combatants demonstrated competence – I did not notice any gross mistake. The most right thing they did was abandoning Slavyansk. And most of all, they did it with confidence, with weaponry and such…

The decisive factor remains how comfortable Russia feels to assist the situation…

The position of Russia is fairly vague. What is clear however, even a minor goal set by Russia to cease the fire has not been achieved. It is worth to note the stopping of hysteria about the plane. The sanctions have consigned. The new phase of Cold War against Russia is under way.

But except for heart breaking media coverage of the refugees and the sufferings of civilians, all Russia’s top brass stays mum.

There is an opinion that some main goal was nevertheless achieved. This goal is to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO. Russia thinks it has achieved this very cleverly by annexing Crimea, therefore instituting a perpetual territorial feud with Ukraine… until the charter of NATO is altered or exceptions are added, or bilateral arrangement between the U.S. and Ukraine is signed…


Posted by: Fete | Aug 6 2014 5:12 utc | 96

Don't the Dutch care that NATO killed almost a hundred of their citizens, all to get the EU to slam more sanctions on Russia? Or have the Dutch become as zombified as Americans?

Posted by: Demian | Aug 5, 2014 10:34:34 PM | 95

Looks like the Dutch don't care AND are every bit as zombified as US-ers

Dutch PM held in high regard for handling of Ukraine flight disaster, poll shows

Personally I suspect that Dutch high command are as involved in this charade as the Ukies and the US. Their immediate response was too choreographed for it to be otherwise imo

Posted by: Chortle | Aug 6 2014 10:57 utc | 97

Posted by: Fete | Aug 6, 2014 1:12:52 AM | 96

Sure, Russia has put a lock on any Ukrainian off shore gas competition (Crimea) or Ukrainian shale gas (Donetsk).

The US will go for an Israel like special relationship with Ukraine, not formal membership (Germany et al would/could vetoe that).

The iron wall was economical, I don't see a potential for that in today's multipolar, globalized world. It is simply no longer possible.

Ukraine will have a very hard time to join Shengen, if they cannot seal their borders. This will be a conflict zone for a very long time.

It was not Russia who started this ***, but from a certain point onwards they decided to be just as ruthless as the West. Lithuania is in panic mode by the look of their ambassador. I guess they have just the right mix of Fascists and aggrieved Russian nationalists to do a Ukraine 2.0.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 6 2014 11:09 utc | 98

Analysis from Petri Krohn and crew, who carried out sterling work in relation to the Ghouta (probable false flag) Gas Attack

found @ Saker

My analysis of the physical evidence results in the following preliminary conclusion:

MH17 was brought down by a frontal attack by a fighter jet. The jet fired a "machine gun" or autocannon through the left side windshield right at the captain. The direction of fire was from slightly to the left and slightly above.

The bullets left perfectly round holes of about 20 mm diameter in the upper frame of the windshield.

Further down the left side the holes became elongated and irregular, some with the appearance of exit holes. The smaller irregular holes on the side are most likely the result of fragmentation rounds mixed in with armor piercing bullets. Some of these may have bounced off the side and exploded outside.

The damage to the left wingtip was most likely produced by debris from the cockpit section hitting the wing.

Posted by: Chortle | Aug 6 2014 11:28 utc | 99

It was not Russia who started this ***, but from a certain point onwards they decided to be just as ruthless as the West. . . . ..

Posted by: somebody | Aug 6, 2014 7:09:46 AM | 98

what a wanker

yeah arming the underdog so's they wouldn't get slaughtered by Nazis is absolutely unforgivable

Posted by: @ bullshit-bot | Aug 6 2014 11:32 utc | 100

next page »

The comments to this entry are closed.