Ukraine: New Coup-Government Offense in Donetsk
Hiding behind the false outrage* over the likely accidental destruction of flight MH17 the Ukrainian coup-government launched a severe attack on the city of Donetsk:
The western part of the city has been shelled since 4 a.m. local time (2 a.m. UTC) on Monday from Grad multiple launch rocket systems, local residents told ITAR-TASS. Heavy weapons are used and explosions are heard.Ukrainian warplanes delivered an air strike by unguided rocket projectiles at the railway station in the city of Donetsk on Monday morning.
There are allegedly several "volunteer groups" on the ground involved on the government side. These are likely groups of the fascist Right Sektor. They are supported by massive armored forces. Unless the federalists have thoroughly prepared their defenses they will likely have to retreat to new positions.
There advantage so far have been unexpected strikes against flank or rearward positions of the attackers. I expect something similar to happen again soon.
*Why would anyone criticize temporarily storing dead bodies in freezer cars?
Posted by b on July 21, 2014 at 11:43 UTC | Permalink
« previous pagePussy Riot and b are on the same page?
b-"* over the likely accidental destruction of flight MH17"
@79 quoting PR- "There is too much evidence that the Malaysia Airlines flight was shot down by the pro-Russian DPR army," the activist continued. "Not on purpose: it was a stupid, horrible accident, a mistake too easily made"
what the hell????
@Robert - #99
Photo apparently uploaded by source here:
Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash
(Tigr.net) – The news of the crash of the Malaysian “Boeing 777″ split the whole world in just a few minutes based on a predetermined basis: “believe / do not believe” that the blame lies with Russia / U.S.A. / Ukraine / Donetsk. While the international investigation has not even started, most viewers and opinion leaders very quickly – after just fifteen or twenty minutes after the news related to the disaster started to arrive – already knew who were to blame.
There was yet no information that the plane mysteriously deviated from the set route, the Prosecutor General of Ukraine has not announced yet that Donetsk and Luhansk militia did not possess air defense missile systems “BUK“, that Spanish flight control manager in Borispol did not yet tweet that Kiev stands behind the tragedy – but the world was already divided.
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thepanzer @22:
"Over at naked Capitalism Yves has theorized that it would take decades to get a non-dollar system off the ground and running smoothly."
I've read Naked Capitalism for years, and I do admire Yves, but she disappoints me when she wrote that. Her views on BRICS seem to be very U.S. status quo, and it's like she wants to stop the whole idea of BRICS in its tracks. I get the impression that her desire to keep the USD as the unchallenged reserve currency colors her views.
From what I've read, the U.S. is supporting murder and mayhem in Ukraine because they see a direct challenge to the dollar as reserve currency. If, as Yves claims, there is no threat, why does the U.S. seem in such panic mode, lashing out all over the globe, "pivoting" to China, spying on everyone, etc.?
Posted by: madisolation | Jul 22 2014 11:11 utc | 105
Brian #85,
so the government of the Ukraine is a fascist junta and the folks at the Maidan were all fascist dupes. And the Crimea up and spontaneously annexed itself without any outside interference from Russia to be free of fascism.
Fine I will buy that. And now my theory about the airliner: that plane must have just shot its own self down.
That seems to be the only theory that is not being spread by the various sides. It points no fingers at anyone. The government in Kiev can remain a fascist junta to those who see it that way, and a beacon of freedom and hope for those who see it otherwise.
And Putin can be a scheming dictator who let his thugs get out of hand or a force for democracy and stability and Russian soverignity in the region.
Because there is only room for black and white in modern political discourse.
Thank god that the world and the media are still large enough to allow both to exist simultaneously. The only people who get hurt are the ones who get caught in the crossfire between black and white.
Posted by: ralphieboy | Jul 22 2014 12:15 utc | 107
@103
Well, theres a difference between a real threat and a perceived threat.
I agree with you that its a real threat, and its factual that the US perceives threats everywhere it looks, but my own opinion notwithstanding, scepticism of whether or not the threats are real is somewhat warranted.
Posted by: Massinissa | Jul 22 2014 12:37 utc | 108
@105 What are you suggesting exactly? Are you saying Putin is somewhere in between Dictator and Saint?
Posted by: Massinissa | Jul 22 2014 12:49 utc | 109
Who "Mislaid" the Malaysian MH-17 Black Boxes?
There should be no discrepancy on the whereabouts of the two black boxes. How the hell can Dutch FM Matk Rutte, overnight turned Neocon pro-Atlanticist and anti-Russian, tell the Dutch people just minutes ago:
"Black boxes are in the train to Charkov." [Kharkiv]
MH17 black boxes to be handed over to global probe team, Najib says
(Malaysian Insider) – Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Razak said the MH17 black boxes which were retrieved from the crash site will be handed to the international investigation team for further analysis.
He said the boxes appeared to be in good condition. “They will held securely in Malaysian custody while the international investigation team is being formalised. At that time, we will pass the black boxes to the international investigation team,” he said in a statement today.
Najib expressed his satisfaction at the manner in which the agreement reached with the rebel leader Alexander Borodai, the self-styled Prime Minister of the Donetsk People's Republic, had progressed.
{Never mind, the SBU/FBI/CAB already know whodunit}
The only value in these two links is that they represent the type of biased distorted commentary going on in the official msm in Oz.
If it is representative of elsewhere in the Western domains then there is indeed a big challenge to get a balanced view based on facts thru the PR spin.
I’m not recommending wasting any time on them unless you wish to hear, as feedback, examples of the distorting news trash being served up.
Masha Gessen (“The Man Without A Face: the Unlikely Rise of Vladimir Putin.”) is clearly not only ill informed but is actively pushing anti-Russian/Putin propaganda.
Pavel Felgenhauer (Journalist and allegedly independent military analyst, Moscow) is also clearly not seeking truth and facts.
I’m not sure where they dragged these characters from but if this is being said from Moscow then Putin has some real challenges at home.
I look forward to a few weeks down the track where either the truth will come out clearly and we’ll see some red faces; or, more likely, it’ll all be ‘too hard’ and end up a forgotten footnote that someone made a mistake. The Kiev push at the moment seems to be an all or nothing gamble – even if the global MH17 narrative goes against them eventually the facts on the ground (by way of any defeat of the Federalists) will make it largely irrelevant with massive msm help.
Posted by: x | Jul 22 2014 14:01 utc | 111
This seems rather interesting here: http://nodisinfo.com/strewn-fake-wreckage-proven-mh17-crash-hoax/
Can anyone verify the photo of the two guys "working" on that rump part? Source?
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 22 2014 14:19 utc | 112
madisolation@103
An occasional reader of Naked Capitalism, I had no idea that Yves was a woman! Thanks for that information.
I agree with you that she underestimates the movement away from the dollar. But I am not sure about the ability of BRICS to weather anything like a full scale confrontation with the US. There are some weak links there, including, as I suggested above India. More likely is for necessity to lead to Russia, China, Iran and allies setting up a trading system of their own, using currency which may be backed by commodities and precious metals.
That could spread very quickly and, once it develops momentum, BRICS could then adopt it.
Posted by: bevin | Jul 22 2014 14:37 utc | 113
I’m not sure where they dragged these characters from but if this is being said from Moscow then Putin has some real challenges at home.
Putin biggest challenge will be Strelkov, he has proven to be a steadfast person, who has held the values of Russia, Christian Orthodox faith and crushed the oligarchs. Watch campaign against Strelkov turn up a gear.
Posted by: hans | Jul 22 2014 15:03 utc | 114
Good article in Counterpunch
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/22/what-putin-knows/
Another at AToL
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-220714.html
Lee at AToL touches on the "challenges to Putin" angle and ID's Atlanticists as the likely source.
I suspect, unlike hans, that Strelkov and his nationalists, if they have any sense, will be gravitating to Putin's side, not because he is one of them but because he is far closer to them than the American Idolators whose literary excretia is now filling the op ed columns of slavophobic papers everywhere.
Penny @100
This is a sad example of your ravenous appetite for blaming others.
b and Pussy Riot are only "on the same page" in that, many hours ago they both used the word "accident" in connection with the downed Airliner.
On the important question of attributing blame there was a wide gulf separating them. b expressed no opinion as to who was responsible while the Pussy Riot woman blamed Putin and Russia.
So they are not on the same page at all.
Since b's post, thanks to the efforts of many others, a much clearer picture has emerged and there is now substance to the well founded suspicions-voiced inter alia by Penny- that the airliner was not shot down by those immediately blamed by the Kievan fascists and the US government.
That is the way that this blog works. It is a collective effort. There are no stars and there is no strife over precedence, people post what they know, or what they have heard and what they think.
And the result, astonishingly often, is that this simple, inexpensive process brings us much closer to understanding the world than the vast engine of the bourgeois media.
It helps, of course, if while engaged in this work we don't have to keep looking over our shoulders to see whether some smartarse is creeping up with a hatpin to stick between our shoulder blades.
Posted by: bevin | Jul 22 2014 15:12 utc | 115
Penny @100
This is a sad example of your ravenous appetite for blaming others.
bevin: more strawmen? Keep on building them, you are expert at it
Here we go again, EU sanction Russia
http://rt.com/business/174676-mh17-sanctions-eu-russia/
What do eu leaders do? Boozing? Sleeping with prostitues and hate Russians, thats 1 typical day.
Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 22 2014 15:51 utc | 117
ANother obviously edited soundclip is leaked with PUtin, anyone heard it? it makes no sense - doesnt say anything, but again, obviously edited.
Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 22 2014 16:12 utc | 118
bevin @111, I see what you mean in regard to India:
"The key, at the moment is the attitude of India's new, fascistic and islamophobic government. If it drifts back into the imperial orbit from which it came, as is not at all unlikely New Delhi could become Washington's super sized satellite in Asia."
About a week ago, though, Pepe Escobar provided a link concerning BRICS and India. Here it is:
Massinissa @106: Yes, skepticism is warranted. I guess I'm just not as skeptical as Yves. I do think the alternative banks are a good start. Forgive me for referring to Pepe Escobar again, but I do think what he writes here is true;
"It's always instructive to come back to Argentina. Argentina is imprisoned by a chronic foreign debt crisis essentially unleashed by the IMF over 40 years ago - and now perpetuated by vulture funds. The BRICS bank and the reserve pool as an alternative to the IMF and World Bank offer the possibility for dozens of other nations to escape the Argentine plight. Not to mention the possibility that other emerging nations such as Indonesia, Malaysia, Iran and Turkey may soon contribute to both institutions."
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/World/WOR-01-150714.html
Posted by: madisolation | Jul 22 2014 16:20 utc | 119
I wonder if Pussy Riot will be invited top play at one of Obama's kids next birthday party? They've earned it. Maybe I'll start a petition on the white house site, they still got that? Setting as how they are held up as heroes for freedom, as avant garde "artists", wouldn't the Obamas be honored by their presence?
Speculation is running rampant on the exact method of the shootdown and all other manner of things, all well and good, but whatever happened, it should be noted that the media seemed to have their talking points ready before the event, or at least immediately following; the recording of the rebels talking about bringing the plane down- edited and spliced together, which takes time, and the picture "proof" of rebels moving a buk system back to Russia, all released within minutes... then you have the whole cui bono question, and all this leaves little doubt it was a staged false flag. I'm thinking the way it happened, whether it was the actual MH17 that left Amsterdam or if it was the missing MH370, the bodies, all this will be debated for months if not years, ala 9/11. We may never know what exactly happened, but we know for damn sure it's being used in a major way for both propaganda purposes and to help the beleaguered portion of the Ukie army, Excuse me, nazi killers and forced conscripts. So while I'm as curious as anyone who brought it down and how, right now it's about how it's being exploited. Sickening. I about lost it yesterday after listening to the Australian ambassador to the UN talking about this event, how the victims and their families deserved justice- and meanwhile, in Gaza, in Ukraine, all those civilians being slaughtered, where is the outrage for them? Just wanted to scream. Total insanity.
Posted by: Colinjames | Jul 22 2014 16:33 utc | 120
“We are asked to exert influence on the militants of the south-east (of Ukraine). Of course we will do everything in our power. However this would be absolutely inadequate” given ongoing attacks by Ukrainian troops, Putin noted.
Another climb down by Putin, i am sure Strelkov will like to hear his armed forces are militants! I think Putin is cracking up, he is not being rational.
Posted by: hans | Jul 22 2014 16:35 utc | 121
@88 robert quote "... the jets nearby MH17 have NOT been SU-25 - they have been two F16 coming from Poland."
@94 t2015 quote "Robert, where did you get that information?"
@99 robert quote in response to brian @96 "Look at the link from brian #90 - scroll down to "Schwarzblut sagt: 21. Juli 2014 um 08:33"
sorry robert. but i am unable to find the quote suggesting f16 coming from poland via the translation tool.. there is some interesting comments on that thread once translated, but no mention of f16s from poland.. below is the translation of "Schwarzblut sagt: 21. Juli 2014 um 08:33" where you suggest it is coming from..
"Why do I say?
Look at the very simple ... Trummerteil to
it is a part of the left outer wing, and that is the bottom. This clearly indicates damage from projectile weapons! Look at the comparison of damage to aircraft in the WW2 projectile weapons!
Here is my analysis of the someone I wrote:
there were no rockets, at least no SAM, as Russia does not start until now reported.
It is compressed more and more, the 2MH17 fighter jets have shot down with canons with their.
A directly into the cockpit from the left back angled
- hence the sudden disappearance of the transponder signal and interfere with the Cancel, due to damage to the instruments by shelling into the cockpit -
clear traces of Projektileinschlage Tragflachenunterseite on the left.
The 2. Machine from the right may be in the cabin or in the engine.
Why impossible missiles?
In any case the goods on the Radar on any Flugischerung either Ukraine, Belarus or Russia has been located! The air traffic control radars are effective enough that you even Quadrocopter places.
According to an air traffic controllers in the Ukraine, there were 2 fighter jets min 3 minutes at the MH17 and after the shooting was supposed to Ukrainian military eingesakt have the data of the air traffic control.
The Account on Facebook mittlerweiel has been deleted from the air traffic controllers, who can delete something? CIA
eja ... it was a lot " deleted "what the culprits had betrayed so ... it fits.
The with canons to Eisnatz came, and no rockets best fits into the picture.
Each aircraft has Annahrungskontrollen the attacks as soon as something like the airplane flies the same course or dangerous crosses near ( also civilian aircraft have radar in the nose )
- would be the rocket has come from the ground = collision alarm
- have had the jets fired missiles = Collision Alarm
pilots must comply with when something certain protocols, in this case an immediate demand for air traffic control
as this is not done, the attack must come as a complete surprise and that happens to be from the dead angle in the form of Projektilsalven - accurately from left behind the aircraft.
The response to such a surprising event? At least the co-pilot does the machine to the right way ( natural reflex ), the left-hand Tragflach ehebt in the harm's way and so do the Einschuße in the left bottom side of the wing!
The higher the aircraft flies, the less you need it to crash.
The machine then broke apart, is physical natural law, in case of an uncontrolled crash the G forces increase the strukturrelle integrity until they eventually failed.
The pilots were not even have been taken, in such a height, the reflex and jerky pull to the right already mean a stall
there were no rockets, also bomb leaves because of the bullet holes in the wing ... it was a targeted shooting from very close!
I have spent a few hours now and I have tons of videos from Geschutzkameras of hunters in the WW2 considered the most likely you can compare with men B17. It was a very successful Abschußtaktik A B17 from an angle to shoot back into the cockpit, since then has mostly been just a single short run enough ( look at the whole video on YT, there is moderately of ... waving in 99% of cases the B17 for such an attack is always in the opposite direction, came attack from left -> Right, attack came from the right -> left ...
for more features for Projektilbeschuß ... in constantly changing angle ( the wing moves through the harm's way through the twist ) creates the likelihood that the projectiles bounce off, even in the case of so thin material such as in civil aircraft ... we
have here 3 floors the Av.
Posted by: james | Jul 22 2014 16:36 utc | 122
@Anonymous | Jul 22, 2014 12:12:14 PM
What's the point posting a "teaser" without giving a link?
Posted by: acrimonious | Jul 22 2014 16:37 utc | 123
I think more immediate is the long-held goal of wooing other ex-satellite countries westward and away from Russia ... particularly after the disaster in Georgia, meaning that the USA feels a necessity to stand-by-your-man wrt Poroshenko so as to not lose ground in those other courtships.
I'm curious how this civil war, planes being shot down and having a leader in Poroshenko so eager to label dissidents as terrorists and kill them is playing with the everyday Ukrainians (who may or may not have "demanded" Yankovich's ouster, but may well have cheered simply the prospect of change) and now find their country a player in a USA versus Russia proxy war. The million dollar question may be how this is playing in the other dozen or so "post-Soviet states" (a list with thumbnails: http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117440/which-former-soviet-state-could-be-next-ukraine)
How "threatened" do any of these countries feel by Putin/Russia? How much of the American demonization of Putin is aimed at enhancing and justifying our image/role as their protector?
A decade of efforts to bring the Ukraine out of the Russian sphere and into Europe has, thus far, been a bumpy ride What lessons are Latvia and Estonia taking from this?
Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 22 2014 16:44 utc | 124
Here is the obviously edited soundclip with PUtin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNoVfyAywlQ
Translation doesnt say anything comprehensible at all.
Maybe any russian here could translate what is actually being said?
Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 22 2014 16:44 utc | 125
All this civil-war conflict has also provided a diversion from the impending EU/IMF austerity measures. Will Kiev be able to blame the separatists for a faltering economy -- and -- the sting of the realities of the EU agreement and the break with Russia?
The BRIC bank may well look like the if-only, greener pasture, road-not-taken in a few months.
Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 22 2014 16:50 utc | 126
When events - either self-created (i.e., false flags) or accidental - are deemed significant enough to need be turned to the advantage of the US war criminals, I really have to believe that there is some sort of hand signal/email/text message that goes out to everyone in the Establishment with any sort of access to a MSM microphone to just start concocting the most ludicrous fucking stories imaginable just so that effectively multiple strata of bullshit are created so as to overwhelm the perceptive abilities of common peons and lay the foundation for the creation of a history to the war criminals' liking. 9/11, Boston Bombing, Iraq War, MH17 etc etc take your pick, each event included so many fucking stupid nonsensical musings, false facts, fairy tales and other assorted horseshit on the part of the Establishment war criminals that it's really quite amazing to think about if one takes the time to review the documentary evidence.
Furthermore, instead of there needing to be a central script writer - those are probably reserved just for the biggest figureheads e.g., POTUS etc - a signal goes out and everyone just starts making shit up knowing that if their detailed version of fucking nonsense helps move the narrative in the direction that TPTB want it to go, said bullshitters will be rewarded for initiative and demonstrated sycophancy.
Thus, what we are seeing is NOT a granularly coordinated effort at propaganda but rather the loosely coordinated yelping of all of the fucking worthless whores trying to gain the attention of the those few elite who actually DO make up the narratives. The closer a sycophant's story hews to a narrative of TPTB's liking the greater the reward - certainly wealth and celebrity - but maybe also something along the lines of a reward only TPTB could bestow upon a peon: immunity from prosecution for any crimes committed past and present? A carte blanche to do whatever they want? Hmmmm, is this where pedophile rings and other such disgusting elite criminality come into play? Are they all fighting to be above the law like their masters?
In the end, this system of yelping whores - Pussy Riot and the rest included - works probably even more efficiently than the coordinated campaign as all that is needed is that the whores need to know that the reality creation "game" is really on and it's time to start fucking lying and saying crazy stupid - usually unverifiable, natch - shit whenever they have a camera on them.
The level of propaganda and horseshit in the US is really at a fevered pitch right now - lucky Israel catches yet ANOTHER break, huh? - and we're beginning to see patterns that need serious investigation/commentary.
Again, the fact that 99.9999999% of the shit that these Establishment criminals try and tell us is easily refutable with about 5 minutes of web-surfing is the tell - well, almost as much as the fact that NO ONE ever tells them to their faces that there lies are so easily refutable.
Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 22 2014 17:01 utc | 127
Like a badly written novel, those never-followed-up-on leads, characters who disappear never to be heard from again, contradictions to what we were previously told, not to mention the failure to produce (cough) evidence, really discourage anyone trying to actively follow the story.
What happened with that cargo plane allegedly downed by separatists hour prior to the passenger jet? Who fired what from where in that instance? Or did that never happen?
Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 22 2014 17:23 utc | 128
Why what a fucking surprise!!!David Cameron's England will retrieve the flight recorder data from MH17.
That seems AOK to me!!!The Dutch are obviously too fucking stupid to be able to do so on their own. Oh well.
Gee, it's just like how the US and sundry other countries always seem to call in the apartheid genocidal Israelis when they need a crime investigated, huh?
Fuck this.
Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 22 2014 18:14 utc | 129
I mean, since the UK were SOOOOOOO very adept at handling/investigating a MASSIVE pedophile ring within the highest echelons of their Establishment it only seems fitting that they should be the ones handling this investigation.
Pip, pip, guv'nor, just gettin' to the "bottom" of things, doncha know!
A nudge is as good as a wink to a blind man!!!!
Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 22 2014 18:19 utc | 131
From the ZH article:
Cameron had this to say yesterday about Putin and Russia:
David Cameron lost patience with Vladimir Putin’s “bluster and obfuscation” on Monday night and called on Europe to impose “hard-hitting sanctions” on Russia after the downing of Flight MH17.In his strongest intervention since the disaster, which killed 298 people, the Prime Minister invoked the spectre of the Second World War and compared Russia’s aggression to that of Nazi Germany.
He said Russia was facing a “defining moment” in its history and expressed his frustration with European Union countries, including France and Germany, which have failed to back his calls for the toughest possible sanctions against Moscow.
Yeah, something tells me this is investigation might not be up to snuff. Gee, what could that be?
Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 22 2014 18:25 utc | 132
Britain is also opening a new inquiry into the case of that poisoned Russian Putin Foe
http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/jul/22/alexander-litvinenko-poisoning-inquiry-russia-video
(they seem to be throwing everything at hand at the wall to see what, if anything sticks)
divert... divert... divert.... Are murder charges again Putin personally in their sights?
Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 22 2014 18:56 utc | 133
Black Boxes Reappear at Farnborough U.K.
Not secured by Malaysian authorities, just temporarily under Dutch watch when deposited on the refrigerated wagons traveling towards Kharkiv with 16 hour delay, through rebel-held territory. The two boxes will be handed over to Atlanticist and Obama's best ally David Cameron (@DavidCameron). Where is the guaranteed independence of an international commission of aviation experts?
Of course, the British have nothing to lose or gain by the Ukraine debate and pushing NATO's boundaries eastward. Cameron is the ideal son-in-law … for the Murdochs et al.
My earlier post - Who Mislaid the Malaysian MH-17 Black Boxes?.
Slightly OT but since I and others mentioned them here's a nice take-down/examination of FEMEN, Pussy Riot and other fucking Western propagandist whores who just happen to be women.
Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 22 2014 19:43 utc | 136
Oui at #100. Your link to Pat Lang's blog by Confused Ponderer turcopolier does have an interesting point. To quote:
The State Department has now released a so-called "government assessment" that holds Russia responsible for the airliner shoot down.
In light of Ghouta, the issuing of another 'government assessment' suggests to me that there was serious doubt in the intelligence circles as to Russia's actual guilt in this matter, and that the policy side insisted and proceeded on their own.
Ghouta redux
When Kerry and his Amazons blamed Assad for the chemical incident at Ghouta, they argued similarly: Since Syria had Chemical weapons, and Chemical weapons were used at Ghouta, Assad must have done it. No mention of indications that, indeed, the Syrian Jihadi opposition was thought to have just such a capability.
Since apparently the intel community couldn't be cajoled into confirming the official line, the White House and State Department people made up something so-far unheard of - a "government assessment" that held, of course, Assad responsible.
Good catch. This does sound like the US intelligence analysts (military and CIA) are unwilling to pronounce the New Russian rebels responsible for the shoot down. I must admit that my first reaction to the news of the KM airline crash was that some fool rebel did the deed. I assumed that since US electronic and satellite intelligence blanket the region, the US would have solid evidence on what did in fact happen. Maybe they do.
In order to attach any significance to this clue means that one has to accept that there remain many honorable people inside the US government and military that are unwilling to actively lie on behalf of politicians. Many fools who post here seem unable to accept this. I was amazed about the numerous commentators who decided that Edward Snowden and Glenn Greenwald were nothing more than double agents working on behalf of some vast conspiracy ruled by the invisible super puppet masters that control the globe.
Posted by: ToivoS | Jul 22 2014 20:16 utc | 137
Groan. I do wish that we had edit options here or, at least, a preview option to see how the html code get translated. I have no idea how I created the mess above. Time to routinely use note pad and copy and paste to see learn from my mistakes. At least the "turcopolier" link works.
Posted by: ToivoS | Jul 22 2014 20:23 utc | 138
Penny @100
This is a sad example of your ravenous appetite for blaming others.
That is the way that this blog works. It is a collective effort. There are no stars and there is no strife over precedence, people post what they know, or what they have heard and what they think.
It helps, of course, if while engaged in this work we don't have to keep looking over our shoulders to see whether some smartarse is creeping up with a hatpin to stick between our shoulder blades.
Posted by: bevin | Jul 22, 2014 11:12:43 AM | 115
What a complete and utter wanker
just f*ck off with your asshole bitchy little queen behaviour, bevin, you enormously pompous Zio-cock-gobbler
you are such a pompous wanker and bitchy little queen that you even get jealous that someone else correctly called this loooong before Zio-cock gobblers like yourself even had the merest clue.
Posted by: foff, bevin | Jul 22 2014 20:32 utc | 139
Two hatpins so far. Another thread down the drain.
I guess both penny and foff (who may be penny's sockpuppet, for all we know) both truly believe that b and Pussy Riot are on the same page since neither of them addressed what bevin actually had to say about the obvious differences in the two positions.
If the host's political positions are so heinous that civilized discussion is beyond your abilities, why do either of you bother to post here?
Contribute to your argument or get lost.
Posted by: Al Cazar | Jul 22 2014 20:47 utc | 140
@ToivoS #138:
I do wish that we had edit options here or, at least, a preview option to see how the html code get translated.
There is a preview option. Instead of clicking on the button marked "Post", you click on the button marked "Preview".
@foff, bevin #139:
Fuck off.
Posted by: Al Cazar | Jul 22, 2014 4:47:51 PM | 140
foff, bevin, you pompous cock
Posted by: foff, bevin | Jul 22 2014 21:00 utc | 142
The charge of the Atlanticist Brigade
By Peter Lee
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-220714.html
Posted by: crone | Jul 22 2014 21:25 utc | 143
@Oui #100:
is this an indication of mutiny inside the CIA?
This has been discussed before. Robert Parry has posted two article over at Consortium News in which he says that some in the CIA believe the Yukes shot the plane down. And Ray McGovern has a piece there today in which he writes that a "Government Assessment" of the use of chemical weapons at Ghouta was a novelty, since usually an "Intelligence Assessment" is produced in such cases. Evidently, the Obama administration has no more need for proper intelligence than the Bush 2 administration had. And still, pathetic fascist pussies like Booman are fanboys.
@foff, bevin #142:
I said, fuck off!
regarding the mh17 and who is responsible, this now in from RT
US intelligence: No link to Russia in Malaysia plane downing.. link here
Posted by: james | Jul 22 2014 22:00 utc | 145
@james #145:
That's just a little more reasonable than the hysterical, bellicose rhetoric that Obama and Kerry have been using. It's also somewhat pathetic, since it says that the CIA is relying upon social media. They should have enough information from sattelite imagery and military radar not to need to rely upon social media.
Speaking of social media, this is pretty amusing:
State Dept. Annoyed at Press Questioning MH17 Narrative
Spokeswoman Angrily Refers Press to Social Media for 'Proof'
There's a link there to the actual exchange, which is funny but long.
From your story and the one I just linked to, I get the impression that the US approach is going to be not to produce any hard evidence, but to claim that there is enough "circumstantial evidence" (i.e., the Russians/rebels are to blame for everything; that's just self-evident) to conclude that the rebels inadvertently shot the plane.
This ignores that (1) the junta quickly produced falsified evidence implicating the rebels; (2) the rebels did not need Buks, and it was against Russia's interests to supply the rebels with them. Rebels may have obtained a truck with Buck missiles on it somewhere in the Ukraine, but I read that they didn't get a radar truck, which you need to find a target.
Just ignore these stupid comments about the plane, us have no proof at all, they just trying to smear the rebels and/or Russia. Psyops.
Isnt there a investigation, yes it is, so who the hell cares what these crazy cia warmongers say?
Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 22 2014 22:26 utc | 147
What the media isn't telling us about the former Ukraine:
Amnesty International and the War in Ukraine
The facts show that EuroMaidan authorities started the terror campaign promptly after toppling the former government, that is to say long before the start of the war. The spiral of violence raging now in Eastern Ukraine is the sequel of the geopolitical drama called EuroMaidan.In addition, to see the whole scale of violence in Ukraine one should gather information about abductions, tortures and other ill-treatment throughout the country and not only in Eastern Ukraine. And the time period should be enlarged: it`s necessary to take into consideration all of the violence perpetrated since the victory of EuroMaidan and not only since the beginning of the hostilities.
When the new post-EuroMaidan government was formed it unleashed unprecedented repressive measures, which became more and more stringent and violent. Policemen and their families were the first targets. They were threatened anonymously, their apartments burnt and some policemen killed.
Amnesty is reporting none of this.
I suspect there is and had been a heavyweight "don't ask, don't tell" agreement between the U.S. and Kiev wrt "what really happened" -- shades of Nixonian "limited hangout" and plausible deniability, allowing the State Department the safety and comfort of "not knowing" all sorts of inconvenient things as they rely on their trusty ally, or whatever ... Ignorance may not be bliss but it beats accountability.
yes, the report (as described in the guardian) is pathetic -- embarassingly, even insultingly shallow -- http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/22/mh17-us-intelligence-russia-separatists-report#start-of-comments
The New York Times doesn't have the story up yet. Surprise surprise.
Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 22 2014 22:53 utc | 149
could 'people' please lay off the foul language..it doesnt improve your arguments
Posted by: brian | Jul 22 2014 22:54 utc | 150
Well thank you Demian, I did not notice that button labelled "preview". My bad.
Posted by: ToivoS | Jul 22 2014 23:08 utc | 151
Turkish PM Cuts Ties With US, Mulls De-Dollarization With Russia
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-22/turkish-pm-cuts-ties-us-mulls-de-dollarization-russia
Posted by: crone | Jul 22 2014 23:18 utc | 152
Turkish PM Cuts Ties With US, Mulls De-Dollarization With Russia
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-22/turkish-pm-cuts-ties-us-mulls-de-dollarization-russia
Posted by: crone | Jul 22 2014 23:20 utc | 153
Senior U.S. Intelligence Officials: Russia Was Not Directly Involved, and The Most Likely Explanation Was the Plane Was Shot Down By MISTAKE
Posted by: crone | Jul 22 2014 23:32 utc | 154
@crone #152:
That's very interesting, but a bit confusing. The reason given for why Erdogan is unhappy with Obama is that Obama hasn't given more support to the terrorists in Syria. Since he is unhappy with Obama, Erdogan wants closer ties with Russia. But Russia and Turkey are on opposite side when it comes to Syria policy.
I think a more plausible explanation is that Erdogan has decided that Turkey has been designated by Washington for a color revolution; that's why he wants closer ties with Russia. As Sibel Edmonds has observed, the Western press turned 180 degrees against Erdogan about a year ago.
In any case, who would have thought that Obama would be better at losing allies than Bush 2?
@brian #50: Sorry. I would never do that to a regular.
@ToivoS #151: :-) I thought maybe your browser was weird.
@Anonymous #147, @Susan Sunflower #149, @crone #154:
My impression is that the propaganda campaign according to which the rebels shot down MH17 "by mistake" (why would they do so deliberately? oh, because they're terr0orits!) is being carried on at a fairly primitive level, as if even the propagandists are tired of attacking one country/group after another with groundless fabrications.
The Russians keep on talking about radars that were turned on by the Ukes. I have never once heard a Western report say that the rebels have a radar. But a Buk can't hit a plane without a radar to direct it, at least not one flying at 10km. A comment from that Guardian story Susan S. linked to:
BUK launcher is part of defense network and requires radar to give it a target coordinates and vector. At altitude 33000 and speed almost a thousand km/h - it Requires TWO radars at least to triangulate and track target.Rebels simply don't have trained teams and Hardware to accomplish such hit.
The launcher itself has capability to track targets up to 4km altitudes and 10km distances only.
Even if launcher that fell into rebels hands from Ukrainian army would Worked.... it is a huge problem to find qualified operator to this system.
It was adopted by Russian army just in 2008.. Ukrainian army operating older version of it developed by USSR.. which didn't came out from testing.The whole story is simply a propaganda bull shit.
@146 demain
the cia isn't relying on social networks only, although that would be funny if they suggested such.. it is like saying i talk to my neighboor via a wire on the end of 2 cans.. regardless, the usa comment is a step forward, but also wants to put the blame on a missile shot from the ground, which still doesn't explain the presence of the jets in the close vicinity of mh17... i await their comments on that to come out, if and when they do..
as for turkey making closer ties to russia.. russia is turkeys 2nd largest trading partner and on the other side of the black sea from them - not very far in terms of distance - 150-200 miles maybe. it makes sense turkey would continue to maintain this important relationship with russia, in spite of the usa wanting interfere with european and non european union countries, especially turkey which is very strategic for a number of reasons. that erdogan is fed up with being a joe boy for the usa/israel designs for syria is another obvious reason that we are hearing about it now.. i sense we will be told what a monster erdogan is soon enough, not that it hasn't been happening already.. turkey has been more vocal about israels murdering innocent palestinians in gaza as well which won't go over well in the usa/israel either..
Posted by: james | Jul 23 2014 0:08 utc | 157
demian, as opposed to demain! that is easy enough to get wrong!
Posted by: james | Jul 23 2014 0:10 utc | 158
After 09/11, the United States actually refused to share intelligence and/or provide evidence/expert testimony in several terrorism trials in Europe. As I recall more than one case had to be dropped entirely since the critical evidence was withheld. I believe that was a German case and that there was more than one.
Ever the braggart, I almost wonder if our capacity (for the 62 billion dollars a year, as mentioned by the guardian) in fact is FUNCTIONALLY considerably less than advertised -- garbage in/garbage out/can't find a bloody thing because none of the raw date is in analyzable form. Like a boastful big-time operator, we tend to claim that we can't share information because "what we know" would reveal our "capacity" and critical operational details -- Most likely flotsam and jetsam agree, iow garbage, obfuscation, and more cynical "exceptionalist" propagandizing.
I think the big question now is will the Netherlands accept our "word" on this or will they and the EU demand more/better explanations of what happened here?
Still, even I feel a little embarrassed to see we have to admit to such a lack of monitoring of that highly contested border region in a (cough) war zone ... and more claims not backed up by anything remotely resembling evidence.
Did the downing of that cargo plane never happen?
Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 23 2014 0:21 utc | 159
@155
For whatever reason (tyler at ZH is saying to get away from US Dollar),
guess who can't fly over Turkey now?
Posted by: crone | Jul 23 2014 0:35 utc | 160
Yes, Hans @ 114
Things are looking not so good for Mr. Putin in Ukraine these days. He has already capitulated once again to disappoint his legions of admirers, who wish to believe in his his words but ignore his body language which screams 'I too am a member in good standing of the global capital partnership'.
Soon enough he will get his club key back for the G7 and a half club.
But this,
Putin biggest challenge will be Strelkov, he has proven to be a steadfast person, who has held the values of Russia, Christian Orthodox faith and crushed the oligarchs. Watch campaign against Strelkov turn up a gear.
is nice sentiment.
Putin can have Strelkov head on a platter in less time than it took Salome to flashdance her seventh veil.
Posted by: chalo | Jul 23 2014 3:07 utc | 161
This is too funny (in Russian).
The Ukie Website korrespondent.net put up a poll asking "Who do you believe shot down the Boeing 777 in the Donetsk Province?"
Separatists, using the Buk system 20.1% (11,228)
Ukrainian military forces, controlling the airspace over Donbass 71.9% (40,224)
Russian anti-aircraft fire 3.6%
An intervening "fourth power" 3.4%
The plane crashed because of a technical failure 1%
Needless to say, the survey was taken down. Even the Google cache was deleted (which the link I gave has a screenshot of).
The survey was definitely real, since if you type the URL into Google Search, the page title comes up, although the cache is not available.
A new narrative is emerging:
It's neither pleasant nor polite to say it, but the crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 may have been the best thing to happen to President Obama's policy on Ukraine in weeks. …Putin appeared to be slowly winning.
Now the picture has changed, thanks to whoever fired the sophisticated Russian-made antiaircraft missile that, mounting evidence suggests, brought the Malaysian airliner down. We may never know for sure whether the culprits were Ukrainian separatists, Russian officers operating under the guise of Ukrainian separatists or (implausibly) someone else entirely.
Comment here is useless at the moment but just for any angels who may bear witness over us let me say that JSorrentine has nailed it, as he so often does, but no more accurately than during shit-storms of noise such as we are in right now. His signal cutting through the noise at #127 is I think a quite brilliant description of how the noise itself is being created.
No one will ever read this, but I thought I should say it. So until a more sane moment...
Posted by: Grieved | Jul 23 2014 4:03 utc | 164
@Grieved #163:
Yeah, before I tried to make a post about an online poll that a Yukie paper did asking who do you think downed MH17, with 72% of respondents answering "Ukie military forces", but no matter what I did, the post never went though.
I was afraid I got banned for using foul language earlier.
Damian
Media narratives cost only a tuppence and are worth even less.
Putin has reacted. It will soon all be over for the separatist fantasy.
Mop up operations are all that is left for E. Ukraine.
Then the federalization will finally begin and it will be backed by Russia, the EU and the US.
See there? six pence worth of new narratives in a single comment!
Posted by: chalo | Jul 23 2014 4:23 utc | 166
Donetsk. 07/20/2014-22:16
Strelkov:
Confirming taking over settlements Kozhevnya and Chervona Zarya by our forces. The units that were in the action are the armored group, 5th Kramatorsk-Konstantinovsk reconnaissance battalion, two companies of “Oplot”, detachments of 3rd Semionovskiy infantry battalion, 4th Storm Slavyansk battalion as well as Combined artillery group of Slavyansk brigade.At the moment, the fight is positional and by artillery in Dubrovka region (despite much effort, we were unable to take this settlement). A garrison in the fortified customs terminal “Marinovka” is also passively defending, but being blocked at three directions may only retreat over territory of Russia.
Donetsk. 07/20/2014-20:08
Strelkov:
From the early morning, heavy fighting is next to the border with Russia, at the customs terminal “Marinovka” through settlement Dubrovka (Dibrovka) to the height 185.At the moment, our units engage in combat in proximities of settlement Krasnaya Zarya (Chervona Zarya), settlement Kozhevnya and at the customs terminal. The opponent repelled all attacks on Dibrovka. There are casualties – by opponent fire destroyed 1 armored carrier. Moving forward is restricted by minefields and massive artillery fire from adjacent areas.
Posted by: Fete | Jul 23 2014 4:37 utc | 168
Penny posted Youtube video of Russian military presentation with radar images, flight corridors, etc. 9 UKR anti-aircraft systems operating in crash area on July 17. Su-25 within 3 km of MH17 at same altitude, then monitored crash site.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BrhEzecCdTI
Posted by: ess emm | Jul 23 2014 4:43 utc | 169
@Fete #167:
Speaking of dispatches from Strelkov, I don't know if people here are aware that the Colonel Cassad blog now has English edition. Competition for the Saker. ;-)
In the interests of fairness and balance, I should point out that the Ukies also have an English-language military blog. Here are some quotes from the latest installment:
The insurgents keep resisting like crazed and cornered rats. …I won’t argue whether it’s right or not–not to respond to the fire from Putin’s scumbags, who shoot in the old NKVD-style, in the back, while feeling their total impunity. But I know that none of our boys who are heroically holding the defense there, will ever again call Putin’s Russia a “friend.” As with any of us, who have retained our ability to think and feel. …
Putin and his hordes can now only impress the mummy of Grandpa Lenin in his Mausoleum [on Red Square in Moscow], but not the nation which is breaking the Moscow hyena’s spine in Donbas today. …
This butcher [Putin] continues to scare his Russian flock with threats from the outside. As in, there is no direct threat, but we must fear and prepare [our] response (overall, one can only wonder about Putin’s verbiage–if there is no threat, what is there to respond to then?). Although today there is only one threat in Europe–it is Putin himself, which is obvious to every last gopher in the Alpine meadows.
But if the Kremlin ghoul is so afraid of NATO–it means he truly thinks that there is a power in the world to stop his bloody march. I hope he is afraid of it for good reason.
This is what passes for military analysis in Ukieland.
It has ended incredibly shamefaced for "the West".
This here is the BBC - ie official
Meanwhile US intelligence officials said they believed pro-Russian rebels had shot down the jet by mistake.But no direct link to Russia itself had been found, they added.
...
Russia has repeatedly said Ukrainian government forces are to blame for the attack, but the US officials said that Russian claims were "not plausible"Analysis: Aleem Maqbool, BBC News, Washington
It's a briefing by US intelligence officials that's left many scratching their heads.Since the crash, officials in Washington have been playing up Russian's involvement in attacking the plane. Secretary of State John Kerry in particular pointed the finger of blame firmly at Moscow and said evidence would be produced very soon. That's what was expected.
But while senior intelligence officials said Russia had "created the conditions" for the plane's shooting down, there was, as yet, NO evidence of the direct involvement of the Russian government. They said that while it's likely separatists brought down the Malaysian Airlines plane… it was by mistake.
So why would the White House want to wind down rhetoric, in the way it appears to many it has?"
Posted by: chalo | Jul 23, 2014 12:23:45 AM | 165
Your scenario is possible. But if it happens, it will be on Russia's terms. The most noticeable fact in the news is the absence of Poroshenko.
He has now called for a mobilisation ie a people's army. If Ukrainians are not brain dead and I don't think they are, they will get their country back from the mercenaries (and the oligarchs).
Posted by: somebody | Jul 23 2014 5:44 utc | 171
"Why what a fucking surprise!!!David Cameron's England will retrieve the flight recorder data from MH17.
That seems AOK to me!!!The Dutch are obviously too fucking stupid to be able to do so on their own. Oh well."
I think I already tried to explain things to you about the actual Empire, but you never listen. Malaysia was a part of british empire until relatively recently and has all the same problems as any other of the still covertly ruled "former" colonies. Here is an example where that gets quite obvious.
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 23 2014 5:56 utc | 172
oh, the Washington Post seems to have been to a different briefing from the BBC
the Washington Post seems to have been to a different briefing
The Obama administration, detailing what it called evidence of Russian complicity in the downing of a Malaysian airliner, on Tuesday released satellite images and other sensitive intelligence that officials say show Moscow had trained and equipped rebels in Ukraine responsible for the attack.Senior U.S. intelligence officials cited sensors that traced the path of the missile, shrapnel markings on the downed aircraft, voiceprint analysis of separatists claiming credit for the strike, and a flood of photos and other data from social-media sites.
The officials also for the first time identified a sprawling Russian military installation near the city of Rostov as the main conduit of Russian support to separatists in Ukraine, describing it as a hub of training and weapons that has expanded dramatically over the past month. The officials said that tanks, rocket launchers and other arms have continued to flow into Ukraine even after the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, which killed 298 civilians.
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 23, 2014 1:56:12 AM | 171
You have to understand that the city of London will be finished if and when the Russian oligarchs leave. There is no other industry Britain has left. Thatcher destroyed it without replacement. Britain lives on financial and business services.
It is not by financial power only, Russian oligarchs are a fraction what the city of London makes. It is the feeling that money is no longer secure in London that will finish the city of London. Gaddafi and Libya was bad enough for Britain's reputation.
Posted by: somebody | Jul 23 2014 6:06 utc | 173
@somebody #170:
It has ended incredibly shamefaced for "the West".
I think it's pretty obvious why this has happened. Both the US and Russians have military intelligence indicating that the Ukies shot the plane down. I initially thought that this plot was supervised by USG, but I could have been wrong. There have been suggestions in the Russian blogosphere that not the junta, but Yulya Timoshenko's faction was behind this.
Apparently, what happened in USG is that the White House and State Department went into their default blame the Russians for everything mode, but eventually, the CIA and/or Pentagon were able to convince them that the Ukies did it, and that the Russians can prove this.
Since the US appears to be backing down so quickly, I don't think this will be very damaging to the US. But more people are going to start thinking that there is something very weird going on in Ukieland.
@T2015 #171:
Yeah, I was wondering about that, too. But I don't think that the Brits can tamper much with the cockpit voice recorder, since Russia will have monitored exchanges between ATC and MH17.
James at @157
What will be interesting is how Turkey handles this:
Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Straits is a 1936 agreement that gives Turkey control over the Bosporus Straits and the Dardanelles and regulates the transit of naval warships. The Convention gives Turkey full control over the Straits and guarantees the free passage of civilian vessels in peacetime. It restricts the passage of naval ships not belonging to Black Sea states. The terms of the convention have been the source of controversy over the years, most notably concerning the Soviet Union's military access to the Mediterranean Sea.
They could block the access of the US Navy to the black sea. Wonder if the US will risk this?
Posted by: Fran | Jul 23 2014 6:58 utc | 175
@ somebody, russian oligarchs are but a tiny particle of dust in the City. Not even worth mentioning, when compared to the really big fishes (of the Empire itself). Also, the whole world knows for years that London is leveraged beyond reason, that is the main reason why we now have the BRICS bank etc. such movements.
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 23 2014 7:22 utc | 176
@ Demian, they do not have to tamper with anythingt, they can just make up stuff as they want - who will prove it and how? Unless there are further black boxes from the plane left and in russian hands, noone will be able to prove or disprove anything that blighty says.
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 23 2014 7:24 utc | 177
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 23, 2014 3:24:17 AM | 176
No, they can't make anything up. Air India flight was 90 seconds away when it happened. They heard everything the Dnepopetrowsk air control told the Malaysian flight to do. The pilots might even have seen it happen.
As I said, it is not the volume of Russian oligarchs that potentially damages the city of London. It is the reputation of financial warfare.
Posted by: Demian | Jul 23, 2014 2:15:28 AM | 173
I think thankfully in today's information age false flags are no longer possible. By definition, only very few people are informed about the false flag, everybody else plays it blindly. So you get professionals coming up with all kinds of conflicting information in real time.
Posted by: somebody | Jul 23 2014 7:57 utc | 178
Ukraine's "government" will have to answer a lot of really ugly questions
And no, the Netherlands leading the investigation is not likely to suppress them.
This here is the Wall Street Journal
Investigators into Thursday's crash of Malaysia Airlines 3786.KU -4.35% Flight 17 will scrutinize a decision by Ukrainian officials this week to set the height of their no-fly zone over conflict-torn eastern Ukraine to 32,000 feet—when many ground-to-air missiles can easily surpass 40,000 feet.....
On July 1, Ukraine advised pilots to not fly below 26,000 feet over the region. On Monday, Ukraine said a Russian missile took down a Ukrainian military cargo jet flying at 21,000 feet, and the government increased the restricted airspace to 32,000 feet.
Aviation officials in the U.S. and Europe said they didn't know why Ukraine decided on those altitudes. Each country can issue such notices as they wish and aren't required to justify them, the officials said.
Some observers theorized Ukraine created the no-fly zone to clear the airspace for government and military aircraft, and they limited it to still allow commercial flights above.
"One, it's a hassle to block off everything. And two, you get money when people fly over you, and they wouldn't necessarily want to give up that revenue," said Mark Duell, vice president of operations for flight-tracking company FlightAware.com
If those Ukrainian military planes were shot down by the same BUK as the Malaysian flight, Ukraine should have closed the airspace for commercial flights.
Posted by: somebody | Jul 23 2014 8:32 utc | 179
"Why what a fucking surprise!!!David Cameron's England will retrieve the flight recorder data from MH17. That seems AOK to me!!!The Dutch are obviously too fucking stupid to be able to do so on their own. Oh well."
it does not matter, the Russian military presentation nullified the ability to falsify what is on the black box. The Russian presentation gave just enough information, but the main jest was we have even more information, so don't try and mess with the investigation. What has happened to the air traffic controllers voice tapes with MH17, why nobody is asking for their release. Why has the Malaysian government taken a low profile position with this downing. Does good means bad and bad means good, just asking after reading MSM news!
Posted by: papa | Jul 23 2014 10:08 utc | 180
@ somebody: "No, they can't make anything up"
Of course they can, they already have in the very article you linked to - "the officials denied that there was an indian plane nearby". Isn't that making things up in your book?
Or how about the fascist coup still being sold as a genuine revolution, even after we saw all the obvious in-your-face proof of the opposite even in their very own reports?
So yes, of course they can make thing up, which is visible every day 24/7 - just watch the news or read the papers.
As for the reputation of London, it has been dead ever since they started blackmailing Arabs with their gold stored in the UK vaults. Or since the latest revelations regarding all the blatant manipulations in pretty much all markets. London's financial reputation has always been based on one single thing - blackmail and imperial power. In no possible scenario was it ever anything like "trust" or "security" or whatever catchprase you may choose to sell it.
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 23 2014 11:38 utc | 181
"In the wake of the attack on Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, "every country, including Russia," must determine whether it is "together with the terrorists or together with the civilized world," Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said Monday."
Poroshenko starts speaking at 1:45
Eye movement analysis: he avoids eye-camera contact looking away (his right and down) between 2:51 thru 2:57 while giving his account of the 'terrorist' attack.
Note: "It illustrates that a glance to the observer's [i.e. speaker's right] left usually reveals a creative process -- when someone is "making up" facts or lying." (just from the web)
Posted by: x | Jul 23 2014 12:05 utc | 182
Hes back!
http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbwfUqs5Y6_jblWJwMIfRzA
Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 23 2014 12:16 utc | 183
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 23, 2014 7:38:31 AM | 180
Well, it is not very successful if someone contradicts what you say the next second, is it?
Dnepropetrovsk airport by the way is owned and operated by Dniproavia which in turn is owned by Kolomoisky's Privat Group. I assume that includes the responsible air controls.
As the crash victims included US citizens, this will go to US courts.
Posted by: somebody | Jul 23 2014 12:41 utc | 184
During later reading I was how widely discrepant reports are -- no one seems to be the close-to the same page. The WaPo article seems to have arisen from an unknown continent. Although reported variously, the EU is apparently holding off actually imposing sanctions (though the next sanction may have been agreed upon/sketched out) -- variously -- in hope of avoiding "impeding the investigation" (because those "awful" Russians might not cooperate out of pique, I guess) or, I suspect, because there's uncertainty about WHY further sanctions are necessary since Putin is cooperating, has been cooperating, didn't shoot down the plane or provide the BUK ... etc. (what has changed since the last round of sanctions, except that the U.S. is eager to demand all its "team members" pledge to the "next steps" -- and there have to be "next steps" to demonstrate that the U.S. is not "backing down" -- more optics, I guess, tedious).
late BBC says that Netherlands and Malaysia Airlines are eager for a prompt, thorough investigation of what happened, quite likely, yes, because "wrongful death" law suits will be filed, as they always are, even wrt acts of God, acts of war ... the Airline seems ripe to be sued out of existence in light of reports that "other airlines" avoided the route ... but we'll see. Except to badger Putin and beat war drums, this may fade from general interest in a few weeks.
Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 23 2014 15:01 utc | 185
Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 23, 2014 11:01:06 AM | 185
German government just heightened the sanctions rethoric "because Putin is not cooperating".
So ...
Does not necessarily mean anything. Maybe just realizing they are about to lose the information war.
Posted by: somebody | Jul 23 2014 15:14 utc | 186
@ somebody: "Well, it is not very successful if someone contradicts what you say the next second, is it?"
You think they care? Have any of them retracted or corrected anything due to this obvious contradiction? No. They'll just keep on saying whatever they feel like, with fingers in their ears singing la-la-laa. And like Marie Harf in her conference yesterday, they'll just openly get enraged for being questioned and spill such bullshit like "we are trustworthy as opposed to Russians, how can you even ask us for any facts and details instead of just trusting us?", something along those lines.
They simply don't even give a fwck about any credibility anymore, not even superficially playing it. Right now they just make shit up as they go and switch the narratives on a daily basis.
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 23 2014 16:07 utc | 187
The comments to this entry are closed.
Look at the link from brian #90 - scroll down to "Schwarzblut sagt: 21. Juli 2014 um 08:33" and translate german to english -> there you'll find the informations.
@brian #96 - do you read what you post/link?
Posted by: Robert | Jul 22 2014 9:58 utc | 101