Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 21, 2014

Ukraine: New Coup-Government Offense in Donetsk

Hiding behind the false outrage* over the likely accidental destruction of flight MH17 the Ukrainian coup-government launched a severe attack on the city of Donetsk:

The western part of the city has been shelled since 4 a.m. local time (2 a.m. UTC) on Monday from Grad multiple launch rocket systems, local residents told ITAR-TASS. Heavy weapons are used and explosions are heard.

Ukrainian warplanes delivered an air strike by unguided rocket projectiles at the railway station in the city of Donetsk on Monday morning.

There are allegedly several "volunteer groups" on the ground involved on the government side. These are likely groups of the fascist Right Sektor. They are supported by massive armored forces. Unless the federalists have thoroughly prepared their defenses they will likely have to retreat to new positions.

There advantage so far have been unexpected strikes against flank or rearward positions of the attackers. I expect something similar to happen again soon.

*Why would anyone criticize temporarily storing dead bodies in freezer cars?

Posted by b on July 21, 2014 at 11:43 UTC | Permalink

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pretty good piece from wsws:

US escalates threats against Russia over Ukraine crash
By Alex Lantier
21 July 2014
The Obama administration is intensifying its propaganda campaign against Russia and pro-Russian separatists over the shooting down of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17. Even as it is clear that the US does not know how MH17 crashed or what role Russia played in the tragedy, top administration officials are using the crisis to issue repeated ultimatums against the Russian government.

US Secretary of State John Kerry made multiple television appearances Sunday, issuing bellicose statements and threats. The shooting down of the airline was a “moment of truth” for Russian President Vladimir Putin, he told Fox News.

Kerry provided the US “case” that Russia gave the east Ukrainian forces weapons that could have been used to shoot down MH17.

“There was a convoy several weeks ago, about 150 vehicles with armored personnel carriers, multiple rocket launchers, tanks, artillery, all of which crossed over from Russia into the eastern part of Ukraine and was turned over to the separatists,” Kerry told CNN. “So there’s an enormous amount of evidence, even more evidence than I just documented, that points to the involvement of Russia in providing these systems, training the people on them.”

Even if Kerry’s claims were true and Russia had provided weapons capable of shooting down MH17, this would not prove that the east Ukrainian forces in fact shot down the plane. Citing Mark Galeotti of New York University’s Center for Global Affairs, CNN said that the “evidence is largely circumstantial. NATO’s images did not show the tanks actually crossing into Ukraine.”

Asked on CNN whether Russia was “culpable” in the MH17 crash, Kerry refused to answer. “You know, culpability is a judicial term, and people can make their own judgments about what they read here. That’s why we’ve asked for a full-fledged investigation,” he said.

The recklessness of Kerry’s statements is staggering. The United States’ top diplomat is insinuating that Russia might have helped shoot down MH17, while issuing threats that could lead to international sanctions against Russia and an escalation of the civil war in Ukraine into a global war. As he advances these charges, however, he admits that the administration does not actually know what happened.

In reality, for the Obama administration, matters of fact—what actually happened and who shot down MH17, provided it was shot down—are beside the point. The event was seized on to press longstanding political aims. Washington continued to exploit the issue yesterday to pressure Russia and the United States’ imperialist allies in Europe to fall in line with US foreign policy.

Speaking on CNN, US Senate Intelligence Committee Chairman Dianne Feinstein (Democrat of California) demanded that Putin “man up” and confess to shooting down MH17. She said, “I think the nexus between Russia and the separatists have been established very clearly. So the issue is, where is Putin? I would say, ‘Putin, you have to man up. You should talk to the world. You should say if this was a mistake, which I hope it was, say it.’”

Feinstein also called on the European Union to impose deep economic sanctions against Russia: “I think Europe has to come together. I think Germany, in particular, has to lead. I think we have to continue with sanctions. It’s difficult, because you need Russian help in so many things.”

For their part, Britain, Germany and France announced on Sunday that they would prepare to increase sanctions against Russia over the plane crash at a European foreign ministers meeting Tuesday.

British Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond on Sunday said Russia “risks becoming a pariah state if it does not behave properly.”

Alluding to divisions within Europe over policy toward Russia—particularly, reluctance from sections of the German political establishment to follow in lockstep behind the US—Hammond said, “Some of our European allies have been less enthusiastic, and I hope that the shock of this incident will see them now more engaged, more willing to take the actions which are necessary to bring home to the Russians that when you do this kind of thing it has consequences.”

While it presses its propaganda campaign against Russia, the US appears to be hedging its bets about what actually happened. In comments Friday in which he denounced Russia, Obama himself made a peculiar reference to a lot of “misinformation” on the MH17 crash, saying that it was necessary for people to “sift through what is factually based and what is simply speculation.”

US claims that Russia is politically responsible for the crash of MH17 are a cynical fraud. Whether the plane was brought down by a missile fired by Ukrainian or Russian-backed forces, the central responsibility for this tragedy lies with Washington, Berlin and their European allies. The civil war raging in east Ukraine, in which one or another side shot down the jetliner, was provoked by their support for the installation of a far-right, pro-Western Ukrainian regime through the fascist-led putsch of February 22 in Kiev.

Since then, CIA officials, mercenaries from the firm previously known as Blackwater, and European intelligence operatives have worked closely with Ukrainian fascist militias, such as Right Sector or the Azov Battalion, to attack and terrorize east Ukrainian cities. It is unclear how much the White House, which has already claimed that the CIA spied on German officials and intelligence agencies without telling Obama, knows about these activities.

Under these conditions, it is impossible to place confidence in any statement coming from the Obama administration about the MH17 crash. While pro-Russian forces might have shot it down, it is also possible that Ukrainian army forces or fascist militias, working with Western intelligence units or mercenary groups, shot down the plane and blamed it on pro-Russian forces.

Significantly, what reports have emerged about missile batteries active in the region at the time of the MH17 crash point to involvement not by Russia, but by the US-backed regime in Kiev.

US intelligence has claimed that US spy satellites over Ukraine detected an SA-11 Buk missile battery firing a missile shortly before MH17 crashed. Both Russian and Ukrainian army units field Buk missile batteries, which were originally designed in the Soviet Union. The Kiev regime subsequently released a video clip of a Buk missile battery, which it said was being rushed towards the Russian border after the attack, ostensibly in order to escape detection after shooting down MH17.

According to Russian television coverage reported by NBC News, however, the serial number on the missile launcher in question—312—showed that it is in fact operated by the Ukrainian army.

Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 21 2014 12:10 utc | 1

So Putin bears no responsibility for Pro-Russian separatists but Kiev is responsible for the pro-government forces? Got.

Now let"s get back to reports of how they put corpses in the airliner before shooting it down...

Posted by: ralphieboy | Jul 21 2014 12:32 utc | 2

The funny thing about the shooting of the plane is that if it was Russian allied fighters it was an accident or poor judgment. However, it seems Ukrainian forces could have done it. In that case, it would be like our allies crossing Obama's red line for Assad. So, Ukraine had something to gain by shooting an airliner from the sky. But, the Russian allied separatists would have nothing to gain. Just a funny dichotomy.

Posted by: scottindallas | Jul 21 2014 12:44 utc | 3

Priceless - a live interview with an (american!) "eyewitness" from Ukraine - scroll forward to 0:40 for the funny bit:

"You're a dumbass, aren't ya?" - LOL.

At least they used to do proper vetting for the TV-liars before, those times are long gone... xD

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 21 2014 12:49 utc | 4

Wealth of information on military action in war zone Donetsk/Luhansk eastern Ukraine …

"30 Hours Earlier. Ukraine Crisis"

Pro-separatists on the move in Donetsk. They do have (at least) one 9K35 Strela-10 mobile SAM system (NATO name: SA-13 "Gopher") - video.

Fierce fighting rages in eastern Ukraine's Luhansk

Fierce fighting raged in the eastern Ukrainian city of Luhansk on Saturday, a day after Defence Minister Valery Heletey said the army had taken control of its southeastern districts.

Posted by: Oui | Jul 21 2014 13:30 utc | 5

Ukroboronservice to upgrade additional Ukrainian S-300PS air defence system

(May 20, 2014) – Ukraine's state enterprise Ukroboronservice is in talks to upgrade an additional S-300PS surface-to-air missile (SAM) defence system for the Ukrainian armed forces.

If the talks are finalised, the company will repair the system and extend its service life by seven years before handing it over to a unit of the Ukrainian armed forces' air force by the end of June 2014.

The company recently delivered an upgraded S-300PS air-defence system to the air force, following an intermediate repair on life extension by a total of five years.

In addition to this, the company is also expected to hand over an upgraded Buk-M1 mobile air defence system to the service early next month.

Ukroboronprom acting director general Yuriy Tereshchenko said the actions towards strengthening the sky space of the country is an important focus of the concern's activity.

Ukraine is exporter of SAM batteries to Georgia and Iran

No wonder NATO wants to 'own' the Ukraine.

Posted by: Oui | Jul 21 2014 13:36 utc | 6

Okie Farmer @ 1. Then there is Robert Parry reporting that a reliable intelligence source of his says U.S. satellite imagery shows junta military operating missile battery that brought down MH17.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Jul 21 2014 13:38 utc | 7

Russia has photos of Ukraine BUK missiles in East. Evidence of fighter Ukrainian fighter jet in vicinity of MH17.

Charades over, you fucking war criminal scum.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 21 2014 13:56 utc | 8

RT also report about an alleged ukrainian fighter close to the plane

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 21 2014 14:48 utc | 9


Meanwhile obama just ordered a staterment when this news came out, they are getting desperate?

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 21 2014 14:49 utc | 10

Yes, more dogs that don't bark ... Anne Applebaum's article in Slate and a NYT editorial from yesterday are both notably "demur" when it comes to specifying exactly what concrete aid Russia/Putin has given the rebels ... not ringing endorsement of the "it must have been highly trained Russian assets operating inside rebel territory who fired that rocket" (it's seems the "rocket was fired from Russian territory" theory has been utterly abandoned).
appelbaum: slate: The End of the Russian Fairy Tale.

This is the context within which a surface-to-air missile was aimed at a passenger plane: A lawless environment; irregular soldiers who might not be so good at reading radar; a nihilistic disregard for human life; scorn for international norms, rules, or standards.
Yes, we get it, she hate Putin ... almost as much as her bread-and-butter scholarship/hatred of Stalin (her bread and butter, being another long-standing bCold War expert).
From the beginning, the Russian government did not send regular soldiers to Ukraine. Instead, it sent Russian mercenaries and security service operatives such as Igor Strelkov—the commander in chief in Donetsk and a Russian secret police colonel who fought in both Chechen wars—or Vladimir Antyufeyev, the Donetsk “deputy prime minister” who led the Latvian KGB’s attempt to overthrow the independent Latvian government back in 1991.
The United States in contrast, sent in how many special ops??

NYT: nyt: Russia's Anti-West Isolationism. (this claims that it's all Putin's fault for exciting ant-Western fervor in Russia and the Ukraine.

Yet even if Russia has not directly supplied the insurgents with the missile technology that destroyed the plane, the sheer scale of the Russian propaganda machine effort against the West could not have continued without consequences. The Russian economy grows weaker as tougher sanctions take their toll, investors shun our markets and our brightest people flee the country. While our hearts go out to the families of the victims, this tragedy has another troubling side for Russians. Whether they choose to acknowledge it or not, Mr. Putin’s rhetoric has come full circle: Our country has become what he has always warned us was true — a place surrounded by enemies.
My, how powerful Putin must be to be able to conjure anti-Americanism out of thin air.
Stephen Cohen (of the Nation) a few days ago on Democracy Now said, paraphrase, that Obama lacks a policy wrt Russia -- Obama has only a "stance" ... it's dismaying every time Samantha Power and/or Susan Rice come into frame, to realize that these are his advisors and that Hillary Clinton is willing, as an Ex-Secretary of State, to compare Putin to Hitler -- because it's generates publicity and buzz for her inevitable run for the Presidency in 2 years ....
Meanwhile, Proshenko (is he echoing Appelbaum?) is declaring that his very own civil war (which he may well be losing) is now an "international matter" -- see seems to have adopted his predecessor's rhetoric that WWIII is at out doorstep if we would just fully grasp the international significance of his country's turmoil ... etc.

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 21 2014 15:13 utc | 11

Petro Porkshanko live on CNN right now, hosted by Christiane Amanpour as they wait for Obama to get back from his morning tricycle ride and address the nation on the Ukraine.

I've lost count the number of times he's referred to 'terrorists' and 'terrorism'.

"please, Christian(sic), no say 'separatists', these are terrorists that are keeling people"

(cut to Obama, who after a blurble about Gaza, starts talking about 'separatists')

The whole thing is just too schlocky to behold.

Posted by: L Bean | Jul 21 2014 15:18 utc | 12

The news this morning (7/21/14)sez an ambush by Hamas military resulted in many Israeli casualties.
Huh! I was under the impression the hairy-chested Hamas fighters tended to take to the underground, concrete bunkers when the Israeli ground troops invaded; leaving the women and children up on the surface to take the brunt of the armored invaders.
B sez, "There (sic) advantage so far has been unexpected strikes against flank or rearward positions of the attackers." Hasn't this type of warfare been common all this time? As a Viet Vet I saw this techniqe used very effectively. Or, am I mistaken about how Hamas has been reacting as a military force?

Posted by: Jake, in Tucson | Jul 21 2014 15:19 utc | 13

sry about that, I'm sure I closed the tag?

Posted by: L Bean | Jul 21 2014 15:31 utc | 15

"*Why would anyone criticize temporarily storing dead bodies in freezer cars?"

Because it's another stick that media whores can use beat the Russians with. So too reports that bodies are being "dragged" around the crash site, rather being termed as "moved into storage". Earlier criticism was made that bodies had been neglected. Make your minds up..

Perhaps had there been any surviors we'd have heard reports that they were being thrown out of intensive care units - and babies thrown out of incubators. Not this time. Federalists are reported to be stealing the possesions of the victims instead..

No such shit from the Team Leader of the Dutch investigation team, though.

"On Monday, the Dutch experts examined some of the 196 bodies kept in refrigerator wagons in Torez, some 15km away from the crash site.

"I think the storage of the bodies is of good quality," team leader Peter van Leit said after the inspection.

Posted by: Pat Bateman | Jul 21 2014 15:39 utc | 16


No, I don't watch CNN at all, unless I'm stuck in an airport or bus station, and that's another reason why I'm driving my own vehicle on my next trip.

One can only hope that the Syria thing from last summer is still fresh in the people's minds.

Posted by: Jon Lester | Jul 21 2014 15:49 utc | 17

The saker has a post up with a Russian briefing on the topic. Which implies essentially what the link to the Robert Perry article discusses. The US will just try to steamroll with this narrative, as usual, facts be damned. The question is, will Germany and the other European countries go along with the lie and risk potential exposure to their public's for falling for more bogus Western "intelligence" along the lines of the Iraqi WMD.

Posted by: thepanzer | Jul 21 2014 15:56 utc | 18

L Bean

Why would anyone watch crazy warmongers spinning their propaganda?
that PORNOsheko say that stuff show his desperation of losing the "war".

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 21 2014 15:57 utc | 19

Anon, it's informative every now and then to see how 'reality' is presented to the majority of western people. I don't like, watch CNN for fun. It's a study..

Posted by: L Bean | Jul 21 2014 16:03 utc | 20

As far as I can tell (primarily based on comments over at Salon) most Americans are completely unaware that there is any question -- much less quite a number of questions -- but that Assad "gassed his own people" and, therefore, obviously, cannot be allowed to continue to hold power in Syria, his re-election and recent inauguration notwithstanding. Mention of our ongoing support of Saddam after he gassed about 8000 of his own people -- crickets -- the great Obama has spoken and, apparently, must be obeyed. I have seen several acknowledgements that the investigation into the shoot down isn't "over", even a few admitting that, in fact, it hasn't begun.
As with other things, I'm doubtful that examination of corpses is likely to be "critical" in determining what happened, particularly if the airplane was struck by a missile (as opposed to an on-board bomb or system-malfunction related explosion -- both of which seem rather less likely, iykwim. The 100 unlocated bodies is usually unmentioned.
Kiev ramping up an offensive isn't going to help matters or speed up any of this ... utterly within character.
Oh, and this just in -- over at Salon -- Biden apparently told Putin -- to his face -- that he believed that Putin had no soul ... I guess that mean Biden's definitely in the running for the top spot on the Democratic ticket ...

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 21 2014 16:07 utc | 21

And one other comment. I know western leaders are dumber than a box of hammers, but what, presumably, is the desired final outcome in their ongoing escalation on everything with Russia? Russia WILL NOT return Crimea, period, dot. By taking these actions the west if de facto putting Russia, a great power, in the same category as Cuba and North Korea...countries in permanent sanction status. This will permanently damage US/Russian relations, at least for another generation, and will only ensure that Russia has every possible incentive to de-dollarize as fast as possible.

Over at naked Capitalism Yves has theorized that it would take decades to get a non-dollar system off the ground and running smoothly. I think that may be the case under "normal" circumstances, but with the US trying to threaten the Russian economy with compliance or death, they've given a huge impetus for Russia to move as fast as possible on this issue. Likewise China and every other BRIC nation is seeing the US is so unhinged it will try to unilaterally sanction anyone, even a peer with comparable nuclear strike/retaliation ability. It's similar to Robespierre's overreach and downfall in the french revolution. By claiming he had evidence on everyone he made enemies of everyone simultaneously and gave everyone incentive to drag him down immediately. The US is doing much the same thing by showing it will not only use dollar status as an extortion tool, but is willing to do so for any reason whether real or imagined, and without regard to the consequences.


Posted by: thepanzer | Jul 21 2014 16:08 utc | 22

"*Why would anyone criticize temporarily storing dead bodies in freezer cars?"

There is way too much plane residue accumulated in one spot. There are way too many bodies collected from this crash site for it to have been hit by a powerful SAM. The crash scene suggest there was a lot of fuel left for a fire. This suggests there is greater likelihood that a Air to Air Missile hit disabled the plane in mid air and brought it down somewhat intact.

Google flight 93 re 911 and/or read Wikipedia on the subject. The crash site in Pennsylvania left a crater and very little amount of human remains (approx. 8%). The largest body part was a human shoulder blade. The crater and the bits and shreds of human flesh tells you that there was a detonation close to the ground because of the crater left.

Contrast this with the MH17 crash scene. Lots of bodies, lots of fuel, lots of plane residue in large chunks and no crater.

TPTB would have preferred that foxes and birds would dispose quickly of the human remains and hence the reason for the demurrage of investigators in Kiev. The fact that more than 200 bodies are not going to decompose but were removed and preserved in refrigerated rail cars would be evidence that a powerful SAM did not DETONATE to bring the plane down but that a rod bundle Air to Air Missile (AAM) did it.

Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jul 21 2014 16:19 utc | 23

Igor Strelkov had asserted that the corpses didn't bleed as if they had died and bled previously.

Here is what I think happened. When the plane was hit with an AAM it depressurized the cabin and rapidly exposed the passengers to -50º Celsius. They flash froze like sushi. Once blood is frozen flesh won't bleed.

Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jul 21 2014 16:26 utc | 24

* over the likely accidental destruction of flight MH17

You're suggesting the rebels accidentally shot down the MH17 with a buk? Could you clarify that statement please?
Much appreciated.

Posted by: Penny | Jul 21 2014 16:32 utc | 25

It seems to be general consensus that the targeting a passenger plane was a matter of error or accident -- regardless of who fired whatever "projectile" brought the plane down ... There are various interpretations as to who was more or less likely to make such an error and/or who had the capability to make the shot successfully.
Some, but few -- as far as I can tell -- believe that Kiev targeted the passenger plane to escalate the conflict ... I guess it depends on how "evil" and/or arrogant and certain to escape detection you believe the culprit to be. Of course, the Americans are suggesting that Russian personnel operating within Ukrainian territory did just that. Making such an error -- while using advanced equipment -- apparently is not "easy" (see tales of drunk Ukrainian soldiers and BUK) while making such a shot successfully without advanced equipment appears to be considered improbable. Hence the need to pinpoint exactly what brought down the plane.

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 21 2014 16:48 utc | 26

Russia hints Ukraine fighter jet shot down Malaysia Airlines MH17

Russia today said its records show a Ukrainian fighter jet was flying close to the Malaysia Airlines MH17 jet just before it crashed and a US satellite was flying over rebel-held Ukraine at the time.
"With what aim was a military plane flying along a civilian aviation route practically at the same time and at the same flight level as a passenger liner?" said Kartopolov. "We would like to receive an answer to this question."

The Russian official also challenged Washington to release its satellite images to back up its claim that rebels targeted the Boeing 777 with a missile.

"No one has seen those images," Kartopolov said, noting that a US satellite flew over the rebel-held part of Ukraine at around the time the plane crashed.

"Whether it is a coincidence or not, but the time of the disaster and the time of monitoring by the US satellite dovetail."

Posted by: Virgile | Jul 21 2014 16:54 utc | 27

@26 "It seems to be general consensus that the targeting a passenger plane was a matter of error or accident -"

General consensus? I have seen nothing anywhere that error or accident is the general consensus.

The NATO media is spinning terrorism fast and furious...

Posted by: Penny | Jul 21 2014 16:55 utc | 28

Well they can't have it both ways, Susan. If we're insisting it was a BUK, it would require radar triangulation to operate. If the 'rebels' did it, how? Much more likely is that there are various contingency false flag plans at any given moment. That's what the CIA gets paid to arrange. So the rebels capture a BUK launcher, and the BUK false flag occurs. Westerners know the public won't be bothered by the holes in the story. If the rebels had never captured the BUK, I'm sure some other contingency false flag would be employed, like the 'rebels' attacking one of their own nuke plants or something. Of course that could still happen. As long as the west can fudge on 'troop movements', blame can be misplaced. It's sort of their get out of jail free card when the facts are just too ridiculous to behold. They did the same wrt to the Syrian gas attack, after all signs pointed to the western-backed rebels. They simply stated that the area in question was under gov control, no 'rebels' could've done it. They claim satellite proof, and the average person sees no reason to distrust the proclamation.

Posted by: L Bean | Jul 21 2014 16:58 utc | 29

How can someone that Stelkov be alive for so long? He even have sometimes public conferences/interviews, how come the junta hadnt killed him? I find that quite amazing since junta surely have spies all over the place.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 21 2014 17:06 utc | 30

The Buk SAM in possession of militias and Ukrainians is a red herring and misdirection. Obama said so, that a SAM brought down MH17 so it is gospel parroted by the sheeple. How does Obama know? Was there an amateur video or pic of the chem-trail coming off the Buk missile engine climbing up to 10,000 meters? The hot gas an water vapor exhaust stream would be hard to hide in broad daylight. It would point towards the source of the launch.

1) Why is there so much MH17 plane residue in one spot?
2) Why was there so much fuel yet unburnt when plane hit the ground?
3) Why were nearly 200 bodies, that have been recovered thus far, not blown to bits, shreds and/or vaporized by the shock wave?
4) Why are so many pieces of fuselage and jet engines not looking like the alloys liquified with the exotherm?

The crash site evidence does not support the detonation of 70 kg of High Explosive (HE), in close proximity to the MH17, which is the total explosive payload of the Buk M missile warhead.

Consider that for 911, the plane downed in the crash site in Pennsylvania did not leave any bodies to be recovered. Same with the Iranian flight hit by US Navy. The very same scenario happened with the Siberian Air flight shot down by Ukraine in the Black Sea. The Pennsylvania flight 93 crash site and the two commercial flights downed by US and Ukranian military respectively, are typical of SAM interception not AAM.

Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jul 21 2014 17:07 utc | 31

More misinformation concerning the Buk SAM in possession of militias.

Kiev said this was proof it was going back to Russia. Now it looks they were caught red handed with disinfo since it was actually video of Kiev's own Buk SAM on another location controlled by Kiev.

The Buk SAM is a red herring and misinformation since in all likelihood the MH17 was brought down with an Air to Air Missile (AAM).

Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jul 21 2014 17:13 utc | 32

@28 thanks l bean. i agree with your overview.

@29 good question and i have wondered that myself. i'm reminded of the idea of bringing the wrong tool for the job. it seems the kiev junta under the direction of the cia want to use something similar to a nuclear bomb to get rid of a few bad apples.. i guess all the expensive military equipment can't be left sitting idle even if making war on ordinary citizens is all a part of it.. thus the term collateral damage - something these political and military leaders with kiev and the cia seem to have had happen to their brains.

Posted by: james | Jul 21 2014 17:14 utc | 33

it is unlikely that this was an accident. The flight was moved from a safe path across the Sea of Avov to a path across the war zone. Most likely it was a false flag conducted the US led Ukraine regime precisely to lay blame on the Russian side forces. The American media hysteria against Russia resembles that of the Weapons of Mass Destruction that initiated the Iraq war.

Posted by: folktruther | Jul 21 2014 17:40 utc | 34

Jesus Christ, only the United States could be as embarrassing as it is murderously criminal.

Here's Joe "Dipshit" Biden on Putin:

“I said, ‘Mr. Prime Minister, I’m looking into your eyes, and I don’t think you have a soul,’” Biden told the magazine. “He looked back at me, and he smiled, and he said, ‘We understand one another.’”

Riiiiighht. I'm sure that's exactly what you said, Joe. Fucking stupid.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 21 2014 17:49 utc | 35

"Over at naked Capitalism Yves has theorized that it would take decades to get a non-dollar system off the ground and running smoothly. I think that may be the case under "normal" circumstances, but with the US trying to threaten the Russian economy with compliance or death, they've given a huge impetus for Russia to move as fast as possible on this issue. ..
thepanzer @22

I think that you are right and Naked Capitalism is wrong on this. Apart from the points that you make in your post there is the underlying fact that the US dollar is pure paper, based entirely on the power and credibility of the US government.

This is the first time in history that a reserve currency has not been convertible into either precious metals or fixed amounts of specified commodities. The history is well known: until 1971 the dollar was convertible into gold at $35 an ounce. Since then, by fiat, it has not been convertible; it has been "backed" by US control of the oil industry and a military with unsurpassed firepower. But in reality the dollar has been accepted because it has been convenient for the world to use it.
Now, as you point out, that convenience is becoming less and less obvious: all nations know that unless they are prepared to sacrifice their sovereignty they risk having their assets stolen from them, after judgements in US Kangaroo Courts.

The key, at the moment is the attitude of India's new, fascistic and islamophobic government. If it drifts back into the imperial orbit from which it came, as is not at all unlikely New Delhi could become Washington's super sized satellite in Asia.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 21 2014 18:01 utc | 36


I remember when George Bush said early in his presidency that he had looked into Putin's eyes and had managed "to get a sense of his soul, a man deeply committed to his country and the best interests of his country."

Posted by: Forgetful | Jul 21 2014 18:01 utc | 37

Someone else must have posted this link. But there is no harm in recommending it again:

Posted by: bevin | Jul 21 2014 18:11 utc | 38

ot - latest from RT
Ukrainian Su-25 fighter detected in close approach to MH17 before crash - Moscow

Posted by: james | Jul 21 2014 18:11 utc | 39

Blowback is in full swing from this botched false flag. Read the comments in the link above to get an idea how people are viewing this PR /propaganda piece.

Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jul 21 2014 18:19 utc | 40

I haven't seen any explaination of how last Monday's downing of the Ukrainian military transport flying at 22000' fits into this story. If the rebels didn't take down that aircraft with a SAM (too high for a manpad) are we to beleive the Uki army shot down one of their own aircraft?

Something doesn't add up here.

Posted by: Anon | Jul 21 2014 18:29 utc | 41

This will be the Sarin gas attack all over. The US and a hollowed out, completely pilant and dishonest corporate media will trumpet the same shrill note , straight from the White House disinformation service, louder and more hysterically until the evidence is gathers - it will show that Ukrainian pro Junta forces carried out the shoot down and the Americans knew all about it - then there will be silence as those nearly 300 people and the war crimes of the US and its stooges are shoved down the memory hole. WHERE are the indictments from the Ghouta atrocity ? Turkey, using the American's liver eating terrorist pyschos in Syria carried out A FUCKING NERVE GAS ATTACK ON A VILLAGE FULL OF SYRIAN PEASANTS>>>>>>>> where are the trials, and the (self)righteous parades of defendants and black robed judges at the Hague, those guardians of "justice" and western morality , and all the high moral editorializing....Like it never happened. Maybe the US media and political system weren't always entirely amoral monsters, but that day has passed.

Posted by: Marc | Jul 21 2014 18:32 utc | 42

The latest insight into the MH17 crash, based on Russian military data and Saker's analysis is that MH17 was shot down by an Ukranian Su-25 with a R-60 air-to-air missile.

Could the lightweight R-60 missile have caused the damage we see to the wings and the total disintegration of the fuselage in midair?

The BUK missile has a 70 kg high-explosive warhead with shrapnel. The would presumably puncture small holes throughout the airframe. In non of the photos of the multiple pieces of the aircraft (mainly side panels) have I seen holes. The only warhead damage seen is to to what I understand to be the upper surface of the left wing. These are not random holes but cuts made by wires or rods expanding in a straight line.

The location of the detonation must have been above the front part of the fuselage. The roof of the fuselage must have been split open, with larger and larger pieces of fuselage torn off by the airflow. Total disintegration would have taken several seconds, with flight recorders still working.

The explosive debris expands outward and and backward along the top of the wing. The backward movement would be explained if the missile was coming from a forward direction. As far as I can understand, the pattern of damage on the wing could be explained by a single continuous-rod warhead with multiple zigzag edges making the individual markings.

It is usually claimed that a single MANPAD would not bring down a multi-engine airliner. MANPADs have infrared guidance and would usually hit the engines without destroying the airframe. In the footage of the downed An-26 we see the plane descending with one engine burning. There are instances of pilots bringing Su-25s back to base with only one engine.

R-60 is also infrared guided. Would it not hit the engine? Maybe not, at least if it is fired from the front. The missile also has a proximity fuze, either the standard Strizh optical fuse or the Kolibri active radar fuse (R-60K). Both would explode in the proximity of the airframe without hitting the engine.

One question remains. How did the missile end up above the fuselage?

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jul 21 2014 18:34 utc | 43

@ 40

Bloomberg is blowing smoke.

Here's article from RT saying Russia is solid enough to handle...

Posted by: crone | Jul 21 2014 18:34 utc | 44

@ 44

I am referencing the comment sections to the article. Not the article contents.

Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jul 21 2014 18:42 utc | 45

@ * "The BUK missile has a 70 kg high-explosive warhead with shrapnel. The would presumably puncture small holes throughout the airframe."

Nope. A Buk SAM would have disintegrated the plane in smaller pieces and shred the passengers into smaller portions of human remains. Fuel would have incinerated for the most part before hitting the ground. Debris would have been scattered over a much larger area.

The 70 kgs High Explosive detonation would have caused a devastating shockwave. This didn't happen judging by the crash site photographs and about 280 corpses collected.

Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jul 21 2014 18:47 utc | 46

Media Whore John Oliver, in his Sunday Broadcast weekly Newsfotainment Show on HBO, has dutifully reported without question or doubt that Putin/Russia is responsible for the MH17 missile attack.

Another fine craven MSM media prostitute.

If he'd questioned the MSM NATO US, narrative in any way, he'd have been toast.
Toast with principles. Then again, the show is taped and HBO is not going to buck the system either. There's too much money to be made sucking Status Quo Donkey Schlongs.

Posted by: Fast Freddy | Jul 21 2014 19:16 utc | 47

@ 45

I apologize, I was responding to article headline :-)

Posted by: crone | Jul 21 2014 19:22 utc | 48

No comments to read there, SunTzu.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 21 2014 19:23 utc | 49

@43 petri and @46 sun tzu. thanks for the info on that..

Posted by: james | Jul 21 2014 19:39 utc | 50

i had read about the possibility of a ukee fighter jet in the vicinity of the mh17 3 or 4 days ago, but this is the first i have read about it from RT link@39 with some pics and etc.. looks like the idea is gaining some traction from one side of the conversation..

Posted by: james | Jul 21 2014 19:41 utc | 51


The comments on the Bloomberg article show how the MSM version of the catastrophe (massacre) is not gaining traction with the sheeple.

Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jul 21 2014 19:46 utc | 52
manpads are very short range as are stingers and who knows what the cia has brought into the country. That might be why there is a battle going on around the crash site and shells hitting the train station.

james 51, yes Russian radar picked it up but I'm sure this can be spin they were only trying to help;)

Posted by: jo6pac | Jul 21 2014 19:46 utc | 53


More sanctions on Russia! Must have been hatched by some knuckle-dragging neocon kook at the Pentagram's command and control center. Sanctions make Russia stronger, more self reliant. Russia does not need the West. I wish someone would put sanctions on the US. Sanctions would have the same effect as tariffs on imports. Sanctions would bring jobs back home as we were forced to again manufacture what we could no longer import. Russia does not need energy or food. Russia can sell energy to the orient and cut off Europe. What is thought to be a game of thrones is a game of fools. Who's running this nightclub?

Posted by: Cynthia | Jul 21 2014 19:56 utc | 54

Posted by: Anon | Jul 21, 2014 2:29:38 PM | 41

It is even stranger than that. New York Times Thursday, July 17, talking about the evening of Wednesday, July 16.

Ukraine says Russian plane shot down its fighter jet.

Ukraine, in turn, has accused Russia of firing a rocket that destroyed an Antonov-26 military transport plane on Monday, and Ukraine also accused Russian military planes of carrying out an airstrike that destroyed a residential building and killed 11 people in the town of Snizhne on Tuesday morning.

And there is this from July 7

ICAO recognizes Crimean airspace as Ukrainian

As a matter of fact, civilean airplanes seem to have been warned off Crimea.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 21 2014 20:05 utc | 55

Cynthia @54 You are right.

This story in the Toronto Star however is a reminder that what is good for Russia is not necessarily good for the parasites who live off the stolen property of the Russian people:
"Flight MH17: Russian billionaires frantic about business prospects, as Putin risks isolation
Russia’s richest businessmen “in horror” that President Vladimir Putin’s policies in Ukraine will lead to crippling sanctions."

What is testing every ounce of Putin's political skill is that his government is attempting to balance the interests of Russia, as a sovereign state, and the, countervailing interests of the oligarchs who are extracting its capital and investing it in London, Wall St and Tel Aviv.
It can't be done.
Sooner or later Russia is going to have to impose stringent currency controls and other regulations to bring the oligarchs into line. Either that or, like Yeltsin, give up and surrender to the United States, which, as has been shown, will pursue policies designed to turn the country into a desert inhabited by uneducated and starving savages waiting to be trafficked into slavery.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 21 2014 20:32 utc | 56

See the Russian Military press conf:

Must See! Explains a lot

Posted by: William Bowles | Jul 21 2014 20:40 utc | 57

Here's a video showing Russian military helicopters supplied to the rebels.

Oooops, I had a knee-jerk reaction and got it all wrong. It shows US military helicopters supplied to the Ukrainian regime flying over Dnieperpetrovsk. The Ukrainians are pissed because they were expecting Apaches and were given shitty Hueys instead.

Posted by: Yonatan | Jul 21 2014 20:42 utc | 58

Sun Tzu @52

I have not heard anyone talking about it either. Perhaps people are just getting used to perpetual lies from the politicians, just as the Soviets did in the USSR.

Posted by: Yonatan | Jul 21 2014 20:47 utc | 59

At last the Russians are getting the hang of using the media to get their point across, though it's a pity about the translator, it's ok but difficult to follow sometimes.

But they have a wide screen computer display with air traffic info and the brilliant observation of the Buk allegedly being in Russia after leaving the Ukraine, but in the background is a billboard with a local, that is Ukrainian address for a car dealership!

I think, as with the Gaza horror, this all might end up as a step far for the Empire and its minions.

The Russians and independent media could play a very positive role here, in exposing the war criminals. When I see comments about events in Gaza being a OTT even for a US audience, then you know things could go seriously wrong for the Empire. It's still not 1933.

Posted by: William Bowles | Jul 21 2014 20:48 utc | 60

Sun Tzu @46

The 70 kgs High Explosive detonation would have caused a devastating shockwave. This didn't happen judging by the crash site photographs and about 280 corpses collected.

A third unidentified plane was spotted on the Russian radar. It climbed rapidly from low altitude towards MH17, turned and then rapidly descended going out of radar view. MH17 disappeared from radar shortly afterwards. I am wondering if this unidentified plane was a backup in case the Buk missile missed (or perhaps was intended to miss?). This aircraft used an air-to-air missile to down MH17 allowing it to survive in quickly identifiable fragments. The hope would be that previously prepared propaganda would do the job of destroying Putin's credibility before anyone could work out what was going on.

Posted by: Yonatan | Jul 21 2014 20:53 utc | 61

Oh and see this Global Research piece on the Sukhoi jet that was tailing the jet liner:

Posted by: William Bowles | Jul 21 2014 20:55 utc | 62

A Russian 2-star general discusses curious evidence that Russia has found, as noted in previous posts here.

A question: What does it imply that both a Ukrainian fighter was near MH17 and that the Kiev Ukrainians had moved a BUK array close to the battle line border with Donetsk?

Sun Tzu makes a good case here that the crash site demonstrates the debris signature of an air-to-air missile. And since the Donetsk forces have no airplanes, the only way that they could shoot down a plane would be with a ground missile. So to blame them, one has to assert that a missile did the dreadful deed.

But what would be the point of having a Kiev-controlled BUK so near to the crash site, if the shooting were done by a plane? Was the Kiev BUK supposed to be mistaken for a BUK captured by Donetsk? Or was it only by chance that the BUK was located so near the crime on July 17, and it was moved hurriedly away, once Kiev and the US asserted that a BUK shot down the plane -- so as not to draw suspicion? Or was it involved in some way in the shoot down? What would explain both the Ukrainian plane chasing MH17 and a Kiev BUK shuttling to and from the crime scene?

Could a plane be used to "mark" a target for a missile shot? Is it possible that the missile was shot and missed? But if it misses, it has to land somewhere doesn't it? Explode in space? Clearly these are technical matters about which I know nothing.

Posted by: coke | Jul 21 2014 20:56 utc | 63

thepanzer@22 & bevin@56

I agree. Western plutocrats have decided to destabilize Russia in order to loot it and gain control of its resources. Russia will be forced to de-dollarize as soon as possible, surrender, or go to war with the West.

Naked Capitalism linked to an important article that explains this madness;

“The capitalist system is at present stricken with at least five worsening disorders for which no cure is at hand: declining growth, oligarchy, starvation of the public sphere, corruption and international anarchy”.

Posted by: VietnamVet | Jul 21 2014 21:00 utc | 64

@ 63
"What would explain both the Ukrainian plane chasing MH17 and a Kiev BUK shuttling to and from the crime scene?"

The Buk was useful as a diversion to implicate the militias but it didn't work out

Kiev said this was proof it was going back to Russia. Now it looks they were caught red handed with disinfo since it was actually video of Kiev's own Buk SAM on another location controlled by Kiev.

The Buk SAM is a red herring and misinformation since in all likelihood the MH17 was brought down with an Air to Air Missile (AAM).

Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jul 21 2014 21:16 utc | 65

Posted by: coke | Jul 21, 2014 4:56:48 PM | 63

As has been suggested elsewhere, if one failed then the other was there as a backup. Look, if these bozos can't even fake a photo without blowing the whole thing, then obviously they wouldn't care about the fact that the entire territory is covered in radar (and satellites)! Sooner or later, this info had to come out. I think the Empire is desperate! Chaos is all well and good, up to a point. But it can backfire.

Posted by: William Bowles | Jul 21 2014 21:16 utc | 66

Posted by: Sun Tzu | Jul 21, 2014 5:16:20 PM | 65

The unit, Buk 312 has been photographed elsewhere, in the Ukraine, under Kiev's control. If only the Western media would tell the truth but it's getting hysterical. They must all be snorting enormous lines of coke.

Posted by: William Bowles | Jul 21 2014 21:19 utc | 67

Now that the issue of the black box and the bodies appear to have been resolved, a potent source of disinformation for Kiev/U.S. is removed. Not long after MH17 went down the junta started shrieking about Novorossiyan militia hiding evidence of their guilt, robbing corpses -- basically everything except necrophilia. This will be harder to do now.

Which puts the spotlight back on how MH17 went down.

My sense is that Russia is letting the U.S. get out front on this. Obama has painted himself into a corner. Shrieking about Russian guilt absent proof can only get you so far before it all falls apart and turns to shit. Which it is now doing.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Jul 21 2014 21:23 utc | 68

My headline of the day:

Ukraine lacks $26 billion to carry on with military operation in southeast Itar-Tass

Posted by: William Bowles | Jul 21 2014 21:25 utc | 69

@69 "The minister said that one third of the sum at the issue could be obtained by cutting spending on administrative bodies."

But nice office jobs was the whole point of Maidan!

Posted by: dh | Jul 21 2014 21:31 utc | 70

@ lester @ 17

I cant watch the corporate "news" circus or read any of the daily State dept. PR sheets. Its beyond offensive to any basically conscious at-least-partially- informed person. Its EXACTLY like watching a TV new satire from some over the top, bonzo science fiction movie, like Starship Troopers or Robo-Cop "ID BUY THAT FOR A DOALLR" <<>> yuk yuk yuk "

Posted by: Marc | Jul 21 2014 23:09 utc | 71

@53 joe6pac. porkoshenko is on record today, in response to russian military claims saying no ukee military jets where in the vicinity.. either he's lying, the radar is lying, or it was a military jet belonging to some other country.. i'm inclined to rule out the 2nd and 3rd options..

@57 william bowles. thanks for the link..

@68 mike. ditto your viewpoint.

@69 re-junta war funding.. i think that's what the bottomless IMF pit funding is for - endless war..

i note today in the news russia demanding an investigation into foreign mercenary involvement in ukraine here

Posted by: james | Jul 21 2014 23:31 utc | 72

re: Joe Biden looking Putin in the eye...

Biden is a lying sack of shit. Most people have forgotten that his first run for the Presidency blew up after he was caught giving a speech that was plagiarized in total from former British Labor Party leader Neal Kinnock. He was stupid enough to think that no one would notice. Biden has a complete lack of class and apparently no shame.

Posted by: Gareth | Jul 21 2014 23:52 utc | 73

It reminds me of a nightmarish version of Fantasy Island where Tattoo and Mr. Roarke are manning a Russian anti-aircraft missile launcher as the passenger jet full of guests approaches the Island and Tattoo and Roarke shoot it down right after Tattoo says "de plane, boss, de plane." It makes me sick to my stomach.

I Think I'm Going To Buk

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Jul 22 2014 0:05 utc | 74

@56 bevin

When I first saw the headline about Russian billionaires panicking, my first thought was, oligarchs are hardly popular on the Russian street. I also realized that the Russian people have long experience weathering adversity, which would be relatively easy this time, as they actually have a growing middle class. Their adjustment to western sanctions would even be easier than what most of us have dealt with since 2008.

Posted by: Jon Lester | Jul 22 2014 0:18 utc | 75

Would B. Cold and Lonely iNa. WhoreHouse seems to have gotten his one synapse tied in a knot again. He can't tell real events from the stupid American sitcoms he used to watch in the 1970s.

Wether Biden would think to say something so abysmally stupid, I have no doubt. I guess his handlers have completely given up on trying to establish him as "not-a-moron". Just too much to over come. You can't polish a turd, as they say.

But it doesn't matter - events on the ground inside the Ukraine are not determined by whatever third-grade insults are molding away in "The Senator from MasterCard"'s head. Even if he does have skin in the game with his princeling son is probably calling him daily, discussing the successes he's having poisoning the part of the Ukraine that his father's boss hasn't yet murdered.

It appears to me that the US is still going strong with its "Chaos" strategy for global hegemony. Who cares how many innocents have to die - whatever keeps the blood-stained dollars flowing into Wall Street, that's what the US will do.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 22 2014 1:52 utc | 76

@ Yonatan @ 58

Those are Iroqois helicopters. Hollywood oligarchs probably donated that fleet of Iroquis they used in "Forrest Gump" or "Apocalypse Now"..Somthing about the sight of formation of the ol' Iroqois just screams "Imeprialist war of aggression". I guess it was Vietman.

Posted by: Marc | Jul 22 2014 2:02 utc | 77

Whoever the sick fuckers are who come up with this psyop shit in the Western intelligence agencies/democracy fronts should be the very first to fucking hang after the tribunals.

From CNN:

Rutte said he told Putin "the opportunity expires to show the world that he is serious about helping."

The tributes at the Dutch Embassy in Moscow include a hand-drawn picture of a plane broken in midair with the caption "children should not die," in a child's handwriting.

Another message reads: "We are afraid, we are ashamed, we are in mourning."

While the official Russian position is that Russia played no role and has no responsibility for the crash, what's striking in many of the notes is the use of the phrase "forgive us."

The messages give a sense that the people who have left them do feel that Russia has an element of responsibility in what is playing out in eastern Ukraine.

One note reads, in English, "Excuse us, please, if you can. Sorry! Russia, Moscow."

Well, I guess it's official then, the cuddly toys and anonymous apologies prove that Putin did it!!!

Where the fuck is Pussy Riot, goddamnit, we need a punk elegy for the dead cuddly toy owners!!!

Maybe they could shove a cuddly toy up their twats? Take that Putin, you soulless ghoul!!!

Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 22 2014 2:07 utc | 78

Oh, Pussy Riot has 'opined', all right. I mean as media sycophants and false artists, it's their job.

"There is too much evidence that the Malaysia Airlines flight was shot down by the pro-Russian DPR army," the activist continued. "Not on purpose: it was a stupid, horrible accident, a mistake too easily made when people get confused (or are deliberately confused by their leaders), when inchoate rage and patriotism are aimed at a target as big as the sky. But rather than admit their mistakes, our leaders ask us to accept a lie."

"Inchoate rage". How utterly craven and absurd.

Posted by: L Bean | Jul 22 2014 2:53 utc | 79

Dave Lindorff on Kerry, Obama and telling lies

Posted by: bevin | Jul 22 2014 3:44 utc | 80

Russian Spring

Donetsk. 07/20/2014-19:52


The fighting came to outskirts of settlement “Gorlovka”. The opponent by sizable armored forces attacks from three directions simultaneously. Hopes may hop in “by a fluke”. Like “would it turns out lucky?”

In area of settlement “Kuteynikove (between Amvrosievka and Ivaylovsk), a private military contractor staffed by Poles has quartered.

Battles continue in area of city Lisichansk. Mozgovoy (the commander) is alive – at least this is relieving.

Situation remains grave and is worsening.

Russian Spring

Donetsk. 07/20/2014-17:04


The center of city Dzerzhinsk is occupied by large opponent forces, the city fell.

Russian Spring

Donetsk. 07/20/2014-16:56


Fight is around settlements Karlovka, Naytolovo. Opponent's attack is petering out. The counterattack by tanks of subdivision “Vostok” reversed an imminent threat to settlement Peski. Our “Nonas” (self-propelled mortars) struck a blow at airport positions of the opponent. A reconnaissance group destroyed a “KAMAZ” (truck) of ammunition at the airport entrance.

Our artillery shelled opponent positions south of settlement Marinovka in area of city Snezhoye. Two dug in armored units were destroyed. Yet, moving forward by the infantry remains impossible for Ukrainians are constantly pulling fresh forces in the area…

Local combatants of city Dzerzhinsk in unison with troops and armored hardware of commander Bezler wiped out a National Guard detachment almost entirely. In the night, the detachment took over a building of city administration – what left from the detachment were blocked in the blazing building and had burned with it. A column of paratroopers sent to rescue hesitated to venture into the urban site and retreated toward settlement Konstantinovka.

The city is being massively bombarded by all types of artillery. The center is suffering the most. The combatants lost about 15 killed and wounded. Ukrainian casualties are much greater.

Overall, the military force of Donetsk People Republic remains in appalling situation, the combat as well as the collateral devastation grow wider and wider.

Posted by: Fete | Jul 22 2014 4:43 utc | 81

@ bean @ 79

Oh man here comes "pussy riot". You know your in a for a serious moral upbraiding when "pussy riot" waxes judgemental .What the fuck do they do when they aren't providing CIA scripted quotes to The New Republic ???

Posted by: Marc | Jul 22 2014 4:45 utc | 82

@Petri Krohn #43:

The BUK missile has a 70 kg high-explosive warhead with shrapnel. The would presumably puncture small holes throughout the airframe. In non of the photos of the multiple pieces of the aircraft (mainly side panels) have I seen holes.

The NY Times has published a story with a picture of wreckage with holes in it.

None of this is very important, in my view. The fact remains that the Yukies had a fighter observing MH17, presumably in order to shoot it down in case the Buk didn't do enough damage.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 22 2014 5:19 utc | 83

People, do not despair over what pussy riot is doing. Once they were embraced by Samantha Power it was clear that they nothing more than tools of Russian hating US foreign policy agents. They have absolutely no support inside Russia. On the other hand, it is not a bad job if you think about how much money they are now receiving from the West. It is such an old story -- "refugees" from America's enemies can receive so much lucre once they make their issue. We see it with all of those whores from the ME that join in the Islamophobe and Zionist groups.

Posted by: ToivoS | Jul 22 2014 5:38 utc | 84

@ ralphie boy

Oh rallllllphie booooyyyy the pipe the pipe is caaa aa lling....Seriously have another puff. I find I strange that you keep harping on the goofy story by Julia Ioffe which cites ONLY loony opinion websites, which were probably set up by NED and USAID anyway - and only one of them This is "big time" "journalism" in the US now.....what sad way to end a once mighty free press. I should ask become a writer a the new republic, because I can find a website right now claiming Russian President V. Putin is the father of Gary Coleman...I can find another one claiming B.H.Obama is a lizard man in a mask...Look ralphie, if your not careful John Kerry is going to start using you as a source.

Posted by: Marc | Jul 22 2014 6:00 utc | 85

So Putin bears no responsibility for Pro-Russian separatists but Kiev is responsible for the pro-government forces? Got.

Now let"s get back to reports of how they put corpses in the airliner before shooting it down...

Posted by: ralphieboy | Jul 21, 2014 8:32:21 AM | 2

the Junta in Kiev is not a 'government': its a fascist regime...before the overthrow of the legitimate govt of Yanokovych, there was there is war
Yes Kiev is responsible for the pro-regime they ARE regime forces....why use the prefix 'pro'?

Posted by: brian | Jul 22 2014 6:22 utc | 86

why did a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter fly the same path as MH17?

The Russian military detected a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet gaining height towards the MH17 Boeing on the day of the catastrophe. Kiev must explain why the military jet was tracking the passenger airplane, the Russian Defense Ministry said

Posted by: brian | Jul 22 2014 6:26 utc | 87

China just told the EU/US to stuff it. That was probably the biggest news of the day regarding all of this.

Posted by: jeff | Jul 22 2014 6:46 utc | 88

Americans are buying "the Russians did it" narrative, but I'm not sure whether Europeans are. As I side note, I am under the impression that an effect of the downing of MH17 is that the difference between citizens of the Ukraine who live in Donbass and citizens of Russia who are ethnically Russian is disappearing in the Russian mind.

A comment at the Saker said that today, the Russian national security council (forget the exact name) is meeting to discuss the issue of the protection of Russian sovereignty. So there appears to be a hint in the air that the response of the RF to the MH17 false flag op may be more overt support from Russia to the people of Novorossia.

With the outrageous, utterly mad MH17 false flag op, the USG seems to have indicated that it will continue to escalate its provocations of Russia without limit. has a post with a link to a US State Department briefing which suggests that the USG stance on the downing of MH17 is openly viewed as a farce by some members of the US press.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 22 2014 6:51 utc | 89

OK friends, now to make it complete bewildering let me tell you that it strongly looks like that the jets nearby MH17 have NOT been SU-25 - they have been two F16 coming from Poland.
Also stop the stupid false path the Ukies and USA is making all to follow that it was a BUG - THERE WAS NO CONTRAIL!!!

Posted by: Robert | Jul 22 2014 6:54 utc | 90

@Robert #88:

What's up with the all bold text? Are you spastic?

Posted by: Demian | Jul 22 2014 6:58 utc | 91

Petri Krohn shared Cor Pan's photo.
31 mins · Edited ·
It only gets weirder!
The plane that left Amsterdam was 9M-MRC
The plane that crashed in Donetsk was 9M-MRD
(Note the marking RC, not RD on the front wheel hatch in this infamous Cor Pan photo of ‪#‎MH17‬)
More here:

Posted by: brian | Jul 22 2014 6:59 utc | 92

For Mother Russia
In a hotel in Turkey, Ukrainian tourists shouted loudly: "Russians must die!"
What those Ukrainians didn't know is that in the same floor there were Russian tourists as well.
A Russian woman asked the Ukrainians to "shut up" and the Ukrainians began to shout even more loudly.
Soon enough the two groups of tourists were in a fight, they used everything in that floor of the hotel, chairs, dishes, and every kind of furniture.
Later on, most of the tourists of other floors joined the fight.
After beating the Ukrainians, Russian tourists were so angry and provocated that they started a fight with the English and German tourists who supported the Ukrainians, and surprisingly, French tourists were on the Russian side along with few guys from Belorussia, Kazakhstan and the Caucasus, and helped us beating the Germans.
Hotel's staff men were so shocked and couldn't do anything except watching the fight, from the cameras.
At the end of the day, a French guy bought a Russian flag, and we hanged it on the rooftop of that Turkish hotel.

Thank god there were no American tourists at that time in the hotel, maybe they were eating at McDonald's, but I can tell their reaction when they returned and saw the Russian tricolor waving on the rooftop, maybe they thought that the hotel was annexed or something...

- For Mother Russia!

the article in Russian:

Posted by: brian | Jul 22 2014 8:28 utc | 93

Refrigerated wagons from Torez will arrive In Charkov shortly

Due to damaged tracks and bombed infrastructure in Donetsk Region, the train had a delay of 16 hours and is expected to arrive in Charkov at 12:00 [-1:00]. Dutch government officials have communicated solely with the western regime in Kiev. Agreement was made the remains of the victims will be flown to the Netherlands where Dutch and international forensics experts will identify the victims. The remains were in satisfactory condition according the Dutch forensics expert Pieter Van Vliet, leader of the team.

Large swats in East Ukraine are under control of local militia and international groups like OSCE provide the contact with a diverse network of rebels. The official term used by the OSCE is non-state actors. Malaysia experts have had talks with the local 'rebel' leaders to secure the release of the two black boxes.

OSCE Special Monitoring Mission to Ukraine: MH17 Timeline of a tragedy

Posted by: Oui | Jul 22 2014 9:05 utc | 94

From THE SAKER: Still, a few very interesting things came out of this press conference.
First, the Ukies have been caught lying about their military aircraft in the area of the disaster. They had claimed that no UAF aircraft were in the area. The Russians have shown the recorded radar tracks which reveal the following: there was what appears to have been a military aircraft (with no transponder) flying below 5000m which suddenly began climbing just before MH17 was hit by some kind of missile. This unidentified aircraft then stayed and observed as MH17 fell to the ground. The Russians added that a SU-25 armed with a R-60 air to air missile could have shot down MH17. Maybe. But what is certain is that the civilian radars did detected this strange Ukie aircraft.
Now, these radar tracks are from *civilian* radars. The Russians apparently are not willing to share the data from their military radars. This is why this mysterious Ukie aircraft 'appears' at 5'000m altitude and then 'disappears' again, but you can be certain that their military radars, especially on their A-50 AWACs did track that aircraft before and after its strange maneuver. Again, I think that the Russians hope that the experts will come to the correct conclusions on the basis of what they have shown today and that they will not have to reveal more. But we can be certain that they have the full picture and that they know exactly what happened.
Second, the Russians are challenging their American colleagues to show the images they claim show the launch of the BukM1 rocket. They also point out at the interesting coincidence that an US experimental launch detection satellite was exactly over the area at the moment of the tragedy. Clearly, they are tossing the world experts some kind of lead here, but I am not sure what this is.
Third, the Russians have shown their own space-based imagery which shows that one battery of BukM1 had been moved just prior to the incident (See for yourself here). It will be interesting to see if the Ukies explain what is shown on these picture and, if yes, how?
As a public information this conference gets a C+ but as a lead for experts I would give it a much higher A-. We know have hard proof that the Ukies lied at least twice. They lied about the footage of the Buk missiles being moved back to Russia (the footage was taken in Ukie-occupied territory) and they most definitely lied when they denied having any military aircraft in the area when in reality they had one in the immediate proximity of MH17. That is a huge lie which the Ukies will have a very hard time dismissing.
As I said in my first post about MH17, I have no hope whatsoever that the western plutocracy will ever admit that the junta did it. Ditto for the corporate presstitues of the MSM, but I do hope that the world will see this tragedy for what is clearly was: a deliberate false flag on the part of the Nazi junta in Kiev. As David Chandler correctly points out about 9/11, the proof of a cover up is in itself already a proof of a conspiracy.
The Saker

Posted by: brian | Jul 22 2014 9:12 utc | 95

@ Robert, where did you get that information? I found no such rumors anywhere, although I had thought about the possibility.

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 22 2014 9:12 utc | 96

Posted by: Oui | Jul 22, 2014 5:05:13 AM | 92
dutch in league with neonazis? a lot of dead dutch resistance must be rolling in their graves!

Posted by: brian | Jul 22 2014 9:13 utc | 97

Posted by: Robert | Jul 22, 2014 2:54:31 AM | 88

for all the hysteria, sans evidence!

Posted by: brian | Jul 22 2014 9:15 utc | 98


Looks like part of the fusilage of a Boeing 777 with [fragmentation] shrapnel coming from the outside. This part shows no evidence of an explosion from inside the aircraft.

Long Shunned, Robots Finally Infiltrate Boeing’s Assembly Line

Posted by: Oui | Jul 22 2014 9:42 utc | 99

I've had serious issues with the writing from Pat Lang, but is this an indication of mutiny inside the CIA?

MH-17 = Ghouta Redux? by Confused Ponderer [blog Sic Smeper Tyrannis]

Posted by: Oui | Jul 22 2014 9:49 utc | 100

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