Ukraine: Retreat From Slaviansk Far From End Game
The Saker is somewhat depressed that the insurgents in east Ukraine retreated from Slaviansk. But that retreat was in good order and with few losses despite being surrounded by enemy forces. As their commander Strelkov explains there was no way Slaviansk could be defended against superior artillery and air superiority with little means to counter those.
Strelkov is now setting up defenses in Donetsk which is a nuch bigger city with more resources and likely easier to defend. As the Ukrainian army and the National Guard stormtroopers from the Right Sektor now move forward they may soon find that they have some "left behind" enemies in their back who can seriously influence their operations.
Supporters of the insurgents seem to blame Russia's President Putin for lack of (visible) support. But that is, in my view, thinking too small. It is far too early to have any idea of who has won or lost in Ukraine. What Putin is currently trying to do, with growing success, is to separate the Europeans from the ever meddling United States. Last Thursday a new agreement on a ceasefire was negotiated and agreed upon with Russia, France, Germany and Ukraine at the table. When the German chancellor Merkel informed U.S. President Obama about it it was the U.S. which again threatened Russia and urged the Ukrainian President Poroshenko to continue his "Anti-Terrorist Operation". The Germans and French will have taken note of this and will again move a bit more further towards the Russian side.
In judging the current situation I agree with Anatol Karlin who finds that Putin is playing a clever but cynical game:
[T]he lack of *direct* [Russian] intervention is more likely just the product of a series of cold calculations that show it more likely to be effective in a few months than today, when:a) The Ukrainian Army has become weaker and more demoralized;
b) Photos of bisected, bloodied, and burnt corpses have been filling the Russian and international airwaves for a few months;
c) The resolve of the West and its unity are weaker;
d) The Russian economy is more prepared for any sanctions that are forthcoming; and
e) Austerity is biting Ukraine hard, and (gas-less) winter is coming.
Too bad that it is the residents of Donetsk who will be playing the blood price for this.
The Twisted Genius (TTG), who is former Green Beret trained in creating and directing local insurgencies, has a somewhat similar take on the situation:
[Putin] he is another hard hearted empath. He knows that Novorossiya must be forged from fire if it is to survive. They must want it and be willing to fight for it themselves.
...
Additionally, Putin disdains the West’s penchant for R2P and aggressive interference in the affairs of others. He will move if he thinks it is necessary and when he thinks it is necessary. For now, I believe he is content to provide covert support as necessary, push for a real ceasefire and political solution, and bide his time as a new nation that intends to span from Kharkov to Oddessa and Transnistria births itself.
Posted by b on July 6, 2014 at 14:58 UTC | Permalink
« previous page | next page »"Machos who think in penis-weapon terms and believe in the power of guns instead in the power of self-consciousness and democracy are self-responsible for every massacre inflicted on them."
Who are this one? A Family Femen Guy?? The leftist wing of banderism (Makhnoism)? An anarconazi? or a redarmist of the people republic of NATO?
Posted by: Alessandro | Jul 7 2014 8:56 utc | 102
brian: they're just trying to reach the majority of their audience, who only know this:
http://geocurrents.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/World-Accoring-to-Americans-Map.jpg
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 7 2014 9:13 utc | 103
Demian, "Not destroying Strelkov and his militia when they left Slavyansk was a major failure.
Yes and no. Strelkov was guided out by ukrainian troops dissident to Parubij /NATO-command, who want him out, but without massacres and cleansing and who resist the strategy of dragging Russian military in by all means. If all the military hardware Strelkov mentioned had stood against him, Slaviansk had been flattened and he hadn't had any chance to get out.
IF the plan to beleaguer Luhansk is implemented and IF the Kremlin decides to intervene, because it judges the risks of damaging its authority unbearable, then the russian air force would get well defined targets for a limited intervention.
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/brzezinski-the-west-should-arm-ukraine
Brzezinski is at it again, and with EXACTLY the same suggestion for Ukraine as got US into Afghanistan, but would he have them stop at Crimea, or push the Russians out of the Baltic and precipitate another massive Cold War buildup. "Just give them some defensive weapons."
Well, all of Eastern NATO is already given the Kiev Coup all their defensive weapons and US is already training the Right Sektor fascists in Poland Special Forces camps, so what exactly does the slippery slope of 'anti-tank weapons' lead to? Helicopter gun ships?
The irritating thing is, Zbigniew sounds so darn reasonable, and so the US Senate is already floating a bill to arm Ukraine, and the four East Europe republics bordering Russia, and also establish permanent NATO military bases and 'missile defense systems'.
All part of the 'Bear Trap' theology of Brzezinski's leather jackbooted PNAC G-d.
I remember the 1950s arguments with my uncles, screaming arguments about 'Better Dead Than Red', they are still stuck in that mindset three generations later, even though Russia is just another oligarchy like Ukraine is now, for sale to the highest bidder.
Buy tungsten!! Chairman Mao needs your US$!!
Posted by: chip nikh | Jul 7 2014 10:46 utc | 105
Ukraine to Close Crimean Ports
According to World Maritime News, the Ukrainian regime is about to blockade Crimea's ports.
Transport and navigation in this area has been attributed with a “high level of risk” by the Ukrainian port authorities that claimed they could not vouch for navigational safety in waters around Crimean ports.The safety in Crimean ports and waters is being ensured by the Russian Federation, as explained by the country’s Department of State Policy for Marine and River Transport, RF Transport Ministry in a note to the International Maritime Organization (IMO), writes PortNews.
The IMO, being a branch of the UN, does not recognize Russia’s annexation of Crimea declared in May.
Posted by: William Bowles | Jul 7 2014 11:32 utc | 106
@ 104: sure, they'll just put those handful of fisherboats they own in the way of russian warships... that'll work.
"Buy tungsten!! Chairman Mao needs your US$!!
Posted by: chip nikh | Jul 7, 2014 6:46:29 AM | 103"
Tell that to the US army, they're one of the biggest buyers of the so-called "rare earths". Those targeting systems in missiles etc. require lots of them.
In the consumer industry, we switched over to non-rare earth magnets in the meantime...
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 7 2014 11:40 utc | 107
chip nikh
IS there any more slimy person that brezinski, as a jew he have supported islamic terrorists and now neo-nazis in ukraine, what a moron!
Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 7 2014 11:43 utc | 108
Isn`t it strange, the west makes money in Russia and in the same time they sponsor the killing of russians in Ukraine.
the more the killing goes on the more Putin`s economy makes no sense. Why to export oil and gas when they the west are the sponsors of the killers?
Posted by: ZX | Jul 7 2014 12:10 utc | 109
I don't think they are on a tactical level. (I hope that makes sense; I am not a military person.) Not destroying Strelkov and his militia when they left Slavyansk was a major failure.
Or perhaps it was their humanity. They know it would have been a slaughter and didn't want to do that to fellow citizens and combatants, at least those among the rebels who are actually Ukrainian citizens. McClellan at Sharpsburg/Antietam comes to mind. The only conclusion that can be drawn is that McClellan wanted to avoid a further bloodbath and slaughter by allowing Lee's hobbled army to retreat across the Potomac. The Civil War could have ended with the Battle of Antietam, but instead Lee, given the opportunity to limp away, was able to regroup and rebuild momentum and so the Civil War continued for another three tremendously bloody years.
Perhaps the Civil War in Ukraine is precisely the goal, so like Lee, Strelkov is given another chance because the fight must go on until someone or something somewhere says "that's enough now, let's lay down our arms in an armistice and plant the seeds of the next conflict in the smoldering ruins that are our destiny."
Maybe those who conjure these conflicts have a thing for The Saker and do not wish to see his blog fall into relative obscurity once again if the Ukrainian conflict were to subside and resolve. Maybe.
Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Jul 7 2014 12:15 utc | 110
A szene in Kramatorsk, when regular ukrainian forces entered:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFtyoA7LrCs
At similar occasions weeks and months ago, irregular (Proxy-) forces killed two to ten protesters on the spot, and that was exactly the reason, why formations of defending right-wing militias was inevitable.
(Just to save again the narrow rational point in thomas lunatic interjections)
"He knows that Novorossiya must be forged from fire if it is to survive. They must want it and be willing to fight for it themselves."
Well, if this is the logic, I suppose the same can be said of Obama and Iraq. Whichever side wins, if we can determine all the sides, it , whatever "it" is, will be forged from fire and Obama is just being a "hard-hearted empath" (just like Colonel Mustard) by allowing the ultimate victors to be forged from fire.
What's good for Putin's Goose is good for Obama's gander.
Let the best man's men win!
Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Jul 7 2014 12:20 utc | 112
"formations of defending right-wing militias"
What's that supposed to be??? The attackers are right-wing, not the defenders.
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 7 2014 12:23 utc | 113
TomGard | Jul 7, 2014 8:17:21 AM | 109
Sorry, I have to retract the video-link, it is of May. Russian propaganda :)
@ Cold - you don't understand the context, or deliberately do so. If those people want to be free from nazis, they have to fight instead of waiting for some miraculous "savior". That's all he said there and that is simply true - stand up or shut up.
Again, we're talking about at least ten million Russians here. Let alone all those ill-defined "Ukrainians" who are also ethnic Russians but chose to register as "Ukrainians", just like we were all "Yugoslavs" in former Yugoslavia before the shit hit the fan.
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 7 2014 12:30 utc | 115
The Twisted Genius (TTG), who is former Green Barret trained in creating and directing local insurgencies, has a somewhat similar take on the situation:
An alleged "Anti-Imperialist" blog paying homage to the authority of an imperialist havoctician by quoting his expert opinion. Marvelous. Really. TTG is the enemy. Anyone who is an expert in training insurgents has no business walking the face of this Earth for they and their ilk are the enemy of all Mankind. Mankind cannot move forward, cannot evolve, so long as the likes of TTG walk in our midst, and here this cretin not only walks in our midst, but is placed upon a pedestal at a blog that allegedly concerns itself with human rights but increasingly has become an organ of propaganda for regionalized tyranny versus global tyranny in its turning a blind eye to the tyrannical abuses of Russia, China and Iran in its myopic American Exceptionalism.
Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Jul 7 2014 12:31 utc | 116
@98 CNN is run by the same guy who led NBC from a first place to a distant fourth place network. He came up through GE which means his only attribute was being a Jack Welch yes man. CNN had faded when he took over, so CNN has no chance as an organization.
Posted by: NotTimothyGeithner | Jul 7 2014 13:01 utc | 117
It gets crazier. This from Voice of Russia today:
Lugansk People's Republic to create own Air ForceThe Lugansk People’s Republic (LPR) in eastern Ukraine will have its own Air Force soon, LPR Defense Minister Igor Plotnitsky said on Monday.
"One of the Ukrainian warplanes - a Su-25 – has made a forced landing. Our fighters seized it. The plane requires minor repairs… After that, we are planning to use it. The LPR will at last have its own Air Force," Plotnitsky said. He gave no further details.
Read more: http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_07_07/Lugansk-Peoples-Republic-to-create-own-Air-Force-1008/
Posted by: William Bowles | Jul 7 2014 13:03 utc | 118
What's so crazy about that?
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 7, 2014 9:26:41 AM | 117
It's just a matter of time until they have a Navy too when they seize a forfeited fishing vessel and equip it with a couple of forfeited SAM's and anti-aircraft guns. ISIS/ISIL is using the same strategy. What ever happened to Scorched Earth? Did the same people who train insurgents neglect to train the other side about leaving tactical weapons intact when they hightail it?
Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Jul 7 2014 13:42 utc | 120
Well yeah, you have to begin with something... of course they'll have a "navy" as soon as they have a few fishing boats with a turret on them. The inherent craziness of the whole theater aside, of course.
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 7 2014 13:48 utc | 121
@ cvold: ISIS/ISIL do NOT use the same strategy, since ISIS/ISIL came fully equipped with a whole fleet of brand new Toyota trucks and full combat gear.
Of course all that stuff just came out of the blue sky, it's not like the brits and arabs are runniong the whole thing...
So where is the actual comparison to any relevant situation in the Ukraine? You know, where we have a genuine insurgency against a fascist coup government and Blackwater thugs?
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 7 2014 13:52 utc | 122
Talking of Germany, this piece by Victor Grossman may be of interest to foreigners, such as myself
http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2014/grossman060714.html
" The ongoing, bitter, increasingly bloody events in the Ukraine are a central issue for Germany's government. On the one hand its whole history since 1945 (and actually well before that) commits it to join the USA in extending "western" influence and NATO military presence ever further eastward, very obviously encircling Russia in the process. But on the other hand Merkel & Co. are under pressure from major German corporations to maintain profitable economic ties with Russia, especially with respect to very important gas and oil imports.
In this dilemma it has been the Green party, not in the government coalition and thus lacking any such responsibilities or pressures, that outdoes all the others in demanding ever tougher sanctions or other measures against Russia. The Greens in Germany are not like those in the USA. Their once rebellious roots have largely withered; with some exceptions they have become a quite conservative party, worst of all in foreign policy. In the Yugoslav wars and the attacks on Libya they were the most belligerent of all, and in the current bloody Ukraine crisis they were louder than any other party in their support of the new government in Kiev. And, like all except the Left, they were undisturbed by the presence of vicious chauvinists and anti-Semites in the group which seized power.
Stephen F. Cohen wrote in The Nation:
Independent Western scholars have documented the fascist origins, contemporary ideology and declarative symbols of Svoboda and its fellow-traveling Right Sector. Both movements glorify Ukraine's murderous Nazi collaborators in World War II as inspirational ancestors. Both, to quote Svoboda's leader Oleh Tyahnybok, call for an ethnically pure nation purged of the "Moscow-Jewish mafia" and "other scum," including homosexuals, feminists and political leftists. Both hailed the fiery massacre in Odessa as "another bright day in our national history."
"And both were part of the new Kiev government. Katrin Göring-Eckardt, co-leader of the Greens' caucus in the Bundestag, disregarded such reports. She made statements like: "Many of us Greens have long been connected with the reform movement in the Ukraine . . . motivated by the defense of European values and the protection of human rights." When she stuck by this stand, criticizing Left opposition even after events like the brutal killings in Odessa on May 2nd, she was attacked by fiery little Sevim Dagdelen of Bochum, one of two Left women delegates with Turkish background and a party spokesperson on foreign policy issues: "It makes me angry, I am really shocked at your claim that, because candidates of the Svoboda party and the Right Sector got few votes in the elections the problem of neo-fascism, the problem of anti-Semitism in the Ukraine is eradicated." Dagdelen then quoted the German author Bertolt Brecht: "Whoever does not know the truth is simply a fool. But whoever knows the truth and calls it a lie is a criminal.".....
Posted by: bevin | Jul 7 2014 13:56 utc | 124
all the armchair generals and would-be military strategists, and exsp. the Oberkommandierende b. here don't dare to answer this question: who or what gives you the right to decide about millions of people to shed their blood or, as one ober-idiot said "forge them from fire"?
the only successful way of long term resistance in Donbass would have been what happened not once but several times in several places in the first weeks of the fighting there in March:
The Donbass people had all the chances to keep their region autonomous. When the Kiev junta in March made it's first military approach into the region they were stopped by hundreds of unarmed women, children, men on the roads and had to leave. The Donbass inhabitants only had to multiply these strategies by the thousands all over their places and they would have caught 90% of the public in Europe (don't know how much in the US) positively.
So the question remains why could asshole Strelkov take over and trample down that delicate flower of civilian restistance?
Posted by: thomas | Jul 7 2014 14:01 utc | 125
bevin @122: exactly - "Dagdelen then quoted the German author Bertolt Brecht: "Whoever does not know the truth is simply a fool. But whoever knows the truth and calls it a lie is a criminal.".....
and the same sort of liers and criminals we see here in this blog, at the Saker or TTG - people who side with the fascist thugs of the Strelkovs, cowards like Puschilin in Moscow etc. and justify their crimes
Bertolt Brecht and Jim Morrison would both turn around in their graves knowing that this happens under the name of "Moon of Alabama". Happy that I don't believe in life after death
Posted by: thomas | Jul 7 2014 14:10 utc | 126
thomas
How is the "rebels" in ukraine facists thugs?
Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 7 2014 14:30 utc | 127
its not "facists" but fascists, from latin fasces - but if you are the same ignorant "Anonymous" who asked me about "genocide" in the other blog over the weekend I tell you again: use your own brain, my brain cells costs 35,- € / minute if you use them
Posted by: thomas | Jul 7 2014 14:43 utc | 128
@ bevin: that's a bunch of nonsense. There were never any "rebellious roots" there, only a cheap show for the gullible bunch.
The german "green" party was started by a certain Petra Kelly, who was an adopted child of a US officer. She "studied" in Washington later of course. She was then "suicided" along with her partner a few years down the road, after her usefulness was depleted.
That should tell you all you need to know - the green party is a simple fifth column that should have been used to de-industrialize Germany and lower the birth rates. Fortunately, it didn't quite work as intended, at least regarding the de-industrialization.
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 7 2014 14:48 utc | 129
Thomas: "all the armchair generals and would-be military strategists, and exsp. the Oberkommandierende b. here don't dare to answer this question: who or what gives you the right to decide about millions of people to shed their blood or, as one ober-idiot said "forge them from fire"?"
I am not an armchair general but a war survivor. I can tell you from I saw in Yugoslavia - if YOU don't stand up and fight for yourself, NOONE else will, at least not without vested interest. You did not hear the Serbs begging for Russian invasion bach then, not even in the worst of times. It was simple, fight or die. If you wait for someone to save you, that will be a loooong wait... like, forever.
After the shit hit the fan in my country, it took less than two weeks to have half a million people mobilized and armed and ready to fight the nazis and the imported mujahedeens in Bosnia.
If we had acted like the tranquilized masses in Donbass or that comedian Strelkov, I would surely not be here to talk about it today.
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 7 2014 14:58 utc | 130
hey, you T2015 idiot, not only Petra, I was also a regional founder member of the greens and we did everything to raise the birthrate, even fucking in the streets, but you know, without Jesus Christ it's useless...
Posted by: thomas | Jul 7 2014 15:01 utc | 131
And thomas, just so I understand you correctly, are you seriously calling the rebels "fascist" here? What sort of cognitive dissonance is it in your case? Those people are fighting the certified nazis who violently took over Kiev and openly promote genocide. It's the most basic self-defence for survival.
"Civil" resistance only goes so far in reality, it's over as soon as the bullets fly.
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 7 2014 15:03 utc | 132
"I was also a regional founder member of the greens"
Ok, NOW I understand everything. I will never again bother talking to you - you are either completely retarded or a traitor yourself. Go fwck yourself.
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 7 2014 15:06 utc | 133
you are not a war survivor but obviously a serbian warmonger, one of those who started the wars in Slovenia by invading the country,killing people in Vukovar and comitting mass murder in Srebrenica under the guidance of serbian nationalism and deepest bullshit orthodox religions believe supported by your bishops
Posted by: thomas | Jul 7 2014 15:07 utc | 134
It is not the tactic of civil disobedience which is correct- in many cases, one of which is Palestine, it of limited potency. When directed against fascists it becomes an excuse for massacres. As to the way such events play in the media- a crucial question in the martyrdom business- that is easily taken care of.
I suspect that the media in Canada, which I largely steer clear of, has virtually nothing about the havoc artillery and rocket attacks have caused among civilians in Slavyansk. Nor would it have anything if crowds of women and children had been crushed by tanks- such things have to happen in Beijing to win the "west"'s attention.
How many Americans know what happened to Rachel Corrie, whose decency is immortalised ?
Whether resistance should be civil and pacific or armed struggle are matters decided by circumstances. What is of overwhelming importance is that resistance should be part of a political struggle involving the masses.
It may be that there is an intensive debate taking place in the Donbass and that hundreds of thousands of people have concluded that they cannot and will not live under the rule of the Junta in Kiev and the superpower that pulls its strings. But there is not much sign of it, at this, considerable, distance.
"The people united will never be defeated" is more than a slogan it is a fairly accurate predictor too.
@125
I presume that Thomas is questioning the politics and therefore the motives, objects and capability of the "leaders" of the Donbass militia.
There are those who suggest that there are ultra right wing nationalist elements and military fantasists among them. I don't know but it would not be surprising if there were. I'm not even sure that it matters, so long as the movement they serve is popular it will inevitably bring the "leadership" to reason. It is a fact that the Red Army-sorely needed here- was staffed from the first by right wing patriot officers who were only turned into communists by events.
What matters is less what men like Strelkov say than what they do.
Posted by: bevin | Jul 7 2014 15:08 utc | 135
"...The german "green" party was started by a certain Petra Kelly, who was an adopted child of a US officer. She "studied" in Washington later of course. She was then "suicided" along with her partner a few years down the road, after her usefulness was depleted.
"That should tell you all you need to know - the green party is a simple fifth column that should have been used to de-industrialize Germany and lower the birth rates. Fortunately, it didn't quite work as intended, at least regarding the de-industrialization." T2015 @127
The key sentence here is "That should tell you all you need to know."
Because it tells us very little, which is much less than sensible people need to know.
To suggest that "the green party is a simple fifth column that should have been used to de-industrialize Germany and lower the birth rates" is so unhistorical, irrational and downright idiotic as to need no further comment.
Posted by: bevin | Jul 7 2014 15:19 utc | 136
"What matters is less what men like Strelkov say than what they do. "
Both matters, and Strelkov did what he said, introducing his own personal justice in Slowjansk: "We will not shoot the doctors and academics who refute us, we will force them to dig trenches in forward lines" is something he said in an interview
just the normal power-drunken fascist thug kissing a religious flag, comparable in every aspect to many of the serbian commanders
Posted by: thomas | Jul 7 2014 15:20 utc | 137
In the days of civilian disobedience and resistance in March in Donbass nobody was killed, the army was chased away from a lot of positions; but then the macho style type of robber colonel Strelkov overtook the situation and changed everything into "I'm stronger than you" instead of "I'm not as dumb as you".
The same applies to the Palestinians fighting the occupation: there was never civilian restance, they always thought they would get back the land by wars, self-destruction etc. they should rather follow the example of people like Omar Barghouti of civil disobedience and resistance and BDS on the basis of human and social rights of every human being instead of continuing a so-called armed struggle on the basis of a fascist religious believe against an enemy fighting on a similar believe.
www.facebook.com/events/517087091752066
Palestinians have already tried civilian disobedience - not all all enough, too many people too much posing as religious machos
in the civilian and BDS movement in Palestine, there are a lot who say that the violent religious macho style sort of "resistance" has completely failed and only brought death and suffering on the people because this way the army is always better, more experienced. But they cannot shoot on people just using their bodies not for self-destruction but for resistance and disobedience
Posted by: thomas | Jul 7 2014 15:31 utc | 138
is this the new 'thomas' blog? talk much? friggin idiot..
Posted by: james | Jul 7 2014 15:39 utc | 139
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 7, 2014 9:26:41 AM | 117
It's crazy because, it's suicidal! One beat-up SU-25 (ex-Ukraine airforce) means nothing!
This quote from RT sums it up I think, in terms of what the people of E. Ukraine are up against:
Poroshenko is basically a puppet worth two billion dollars, he is involved in the drug trade, he is involved in making cars, chocolate – he is an oligarch. We found out that he already financed the Right Sector before the putsch even happened, and he financed these people on Maidan. So this is consistent to what we know about oligarchy, with the bunch of the Right Sector people now in the military. And this is nothing different from Nicaragua in 1984, nothing different from Angola, Mozambique, El Salvador, Panama – it is a classic textbook example work by the CIA, and Poroshenko is a puppet. More than one carried it out. The amazing thing is the restraint shown by Vladimir Putin, but I am not sure how long that has to run.
It's all very well talking about defending the E. Ukraine (from a distance I might add) but we should remember that it's not just Poroshenko and his Nazi death squads, but the entire weight of Western media is making sure that our publics don't get a hint of what's taking place there.
As usual, it's the innocents who pay the price.
Posted by: William Bowles | Jul 7 2014 15:41 utc | 140
james, you will be banned if you don't contribute some reasonable thoughts
Posted by: thomas | Jul 7 2014 15:47 utc | 141
Handjob@108
John Bell Hood would laugh at your attempts at historical revisionism. I realize most of the people posting here are not from the US or familiar with the biggest controversy in our country's history, but you had to know there would be at least one who would call your bs for what it is. McClellan was one in a series of generals who didn't muster up, and it was the death of Jackson and Lee's attempt to take Gettysburg that really turned the tide of the war between the states. You'd better go back to wrestling gators, or whatever it was you claimed to do for fun and relaxation.
Posted by: Jim T | Jul 7 2014 15:50 utc | 142
thomas
Are you on drugs or a downie?
Again, how are the "rebels" fascists?
Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 7 2014 15:51 utc | 143
wow thomas even bans people. Wonder if he wears a Prussian helmet to bed?
Posted by: dh | Jul 7 2014 15:52 utc | 144
Jesus Christ, is this the same fucking idiot troll thomas who threatened to legally shut down b's blog back in March (post 289 and then post 10 of the next Ukraine thread) and who equates being anti-Zionist with Holocaust denial?
Yup, the same fucking troll.
Don't feed this fucking dbag troll. He's intentionally here to fuck things up.
Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 7 2014 15:54 utc | 145
JSorr, thanks for making my invaluable thoughts available for everybody here, but you know there are much more on the blog here during the last 10 years - search and you'll find!!!
Posted by: thomas | Jul 7 2014 15:59 utc | 146
"It's all very well talking about defending the E. Ukraine (from a distance I might add) but we should remember that it's not just Poroshenko and his Nazi death squads, but the entire weight of Western media is making sure that our publics don't get a hint of what's taking place there."
I agree.
The situation in Ukraine is dire and the media is looking the other way, just as looks away when Gaza is being bombed.
It is high time that we recognised that this will not change.
Happily, and perhaps only temporarily, the internet does allow us to publish the truth without the massive costs of printing and distributing news.
Which is all the more reason that we should use these forums soberly and honestly.
I am not a partisan of the politics of the former WRP but there is no doubt that the WSWS, for all its faults, is a model of the sort of journalism socialists can engage in.
Posted by: bevin | Jul 7 2014 16:15 utc | 147
Someone on this forum mentioned he was responsible for exerting pressure to get mr. pragma banned, and now he has threatened James...
Posted by: crone | Jul 7 2014 16:17 utc | 148
thomas is a useless piece of net-trolling trash that is turning this site upside down IMO. Divide and destroy. What I cant decide on is if he is a paid troll or just a moron.
Posted by: RobertB | Jul 7 2014 16:17 utc | 149
Thomas used to troll the Vineyard of the Saker blog as "Crazy Ivan". This is his website:
http://crazyivanreport.wordpress.com/
Posted by: scalawag | Jul 7 2014 16:21 utc | 150
http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.ru/vz.ru/news/2014/7/7/694498.html Militiamen said on preparation of Kyiv provocations
"In Slavyansk shovel out the graves of the Ukrainian military, and Ukrainian media are preparing a report about "atrocities" militias that are going to give killing of civilians under the control of the Kiev troops, said the militia.
"Verified information from the source. In the area of the outskirts of Slavyansk, previously the position of the troops of the junta appeared construction equipment. Being excavated, the territory is guarded around the perimeter placed posts of nazhalov, patrols; apparently, reveal their own burial grounds, where they were previously bury conscripts, who refused to fire on civilians and their punitive", - is reported on the page "Summary from strelkov Igor Ivanovich" social network "Vkontakte".
"Especially this correlates with other information received from Kyiv - there is evidence that ukrasni going to mount a report in which to talk about the "atrocities" of the militia, they say, they say, were shot peaceful citizens," the statement said.
"Given that there are already the first dead among the civilian population after the entrance of ukrepov in Slavyansk and Kramatorsk, the provocation may place literally today or tomorrow. A source from Kiev reported that the report is scheduled for tomorrow," said the militia.
Please provide distribute the situation in social networks, to prevent this vile provocation."
Posted by: scalawag | Jul 7 2014 16:31 utc | 151
Posted by: scalawag | Jul 7, 2014 12:31:07 PM | 149
It just reinforces my view that NONE of these atrocities (and undoubtedly the ones yet to be carried out) would not be possible without the direct connivance of the corporate/state media and here in the UK, the BBC has been spreading, well atrocious, Goebbelian propaganda of the most disgusting kind. I'm sickened and ashamed!
My grandfather came from the Kiev area and his entire family, barring one, were exterminated during WWII, no doubt by the same kind of fascist-loving fuckers who torched the Trades Union building in Odessa.
What can we do? I feel utterly powerless...
Posted by: William Bowles | Jul 7 2014 16:51 utc | 153
Posted by: scalawag | Jul 7, 2014 12:31:07 PM | 149
BTW, any chance of a complete translation of the Yandex piece?
Posted by: William Bowles | Jul 7 2014 16:56 utc | 154
@151: yeh, that's an easy way to evade responsibility for atrocities: behaving and acting like machos and murderers, then, after defeat, whining and screaming and telling Mama that the other kid is responsible...
Posted by: thomas | Jul 7 2014 16:57 utc | 155
http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/06/hacked-facebook-correspondence-indicates-a-burgeoning-trade-in-organs-of-ukrainian-soldiers/ Hacked Facebook Correspondence Indicates a Burgeoning Trade in Organs of Ukrainian Soldiers
"Translated below is the Facebook correspondence published by Kiber Berkut between Yuliya Tymoshenko’s lawyer (and lover), Sergey Vlasenko, a German surgeon, Olga Wieber, and the commander of Battalion Donbass, Semyon Semyonchenko. According to Kiber Berkut, the correspondence was obtained via a hack of Vlasenko’s Facebook account by Kiber Berkut on July 4, 2014. The original posting by Kiber Berkut can be found here.
The complete correspondence archive can be found here: Dropme Files and Rghost.
According to Kiber Berkut, the following Facebook accounts are involved: Sergey Vlasenko, Olga Wieber and Semyon Semyonchenko."
(Following the intro at the site is a large amount of the correspondence between these war criminals, as well as links to the information. Much clearer translation and the conversations are grouped together in a cohesive format.)
That Tymoshenko’s lawyer/lover is deeply involved means the Hillary Clinton of the Ukraine is also deeply involved. Note they are doing business with the Israelis (the Israeli mafia human organ trade). The Israeli mafia connections of Tymoshenko and the rest of these criminals probably go back many years. In the 90's Tymoshenko's rise to riches was largely connected with organised crime. Like most of the Ukrainian oligarchs being backed by the west now.
Posted by: scalawag | Jul 7 2014 17:10 utc | 156
Posted by: William Bowles | Jul 7, 2014 12:56:40 PM | 152
"Posted by: scalawag | Jul 7, 2014 12:31:07 PM | 149
BTW, any chance of a complete translation of the Yandex piece?"
Just click on the link at the top of that comment of mine and you can read it all there. But here is the rest:
"On Saturday squad Strelkova, breaking out of the encirclement, left Slavyansk and Kramatorsk. There entered the Ukrainian military. According to Strelkova, he managed to 90% of personnel and weapons.
While the city remained a part of the militias and the Ukrainian security forces continued shelling of residential areas from howitzers. In addition, the Chairman of the Parliament of the Union of the people's Republic of LNR and DND Oleg Tsarev reported that in Slavyansk conducted mass arrests."
The article has embedded links leading to other articles. If using the Yandex translated link I originally posted in 149, clicking any of the hot links will bring up the article translated into English.
The original article in Russian is here:
http://vz.ru/news/2014/7/7/694498.html Ополченцы заявили о подготовке Киевом провокаций
Posted by: scalawag | Jul 7 2014 17:21 utc | 157
Posted by: scalawag | Jul 7, 2014 1:21:03 PM | 155
Thanks
B
Posted by: William Bowles | Jul 7 2014 17:30 utc | 158
#148 scalawag
you are quite mistaken; crazy ivan defends the donbass and his posts are informative, the opposite of thomas
Posted by: Cu Chulainn | Jul 7 2014 17:49 utc | 159
and what would change in your mind if I'm an Australian?
Posted by: thomas | Jul 7 2014 18:10 utc | 161
@ 134: ok, one last time - no my dear, I'm not of yugoslav origin but I lived there and I'm a first-hand witness to reality on the ground. Vukovar was sacrificed by the Croat leadership in order to whip people up into the war, since they were reluctant at first just like people in Ukraine. Srebrenice is a twisted myth, it was a couter-attack after the islamic extremists completely exterminated some 25 serbian villages with about 1500 people. And most of those dead were soldiers, many of them foreign mercenaries to boot.
I won't bother a crazy like you with real numbers and facts, since you will ignore that anyway due to your ideological blindness. In yur case I'm quite certain that you're not a paid shill, but simply batshit crazy.
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 7 2014 18:38 utc | 162
bevin - "To suggest that "the green party is a simple fifth column that should have been used to de-industrialize Germany and lower the birth rates" is so unhistorical, irrational and downright idiotic as to need no further comment."
How so? Those are simple, bare facts. They were always promoting ego-directed feminism, homo- and transsexuality and as recently widely discussed in the media even pedophily - all of those are evidently lowering birth rates. The results in actrual birth rates numbers are confirming this, the number of ruptured marriages confirm this, the number of "old" singles confirms this, the strategy to divide the people into single units has worked wonderfully, mostly thanks to our own stupidity and blindness.
They were also always actively promoting "reducing the load our mother earth has to bear", many of them downright luddites and eugenicists. They evidently did contribute to the total destruction of anythig nuclear in germany, they did contribute to the death of maglev in germany etc etc. Their allergy against the stuff that makes life on Earth possible (CO2) and their climate-mongering is also well documented.
Their warmongering is legendary. Way worse than any conservatives or nationalists, they were the main thurust for bombing of Yugoslavia and every subsequent war NATO made. We had WW2 veterans who got bombed by the Germans for the SECOND time in their life after 55 years, can you imagine that? That's mainly the work of the olive-green fascists, back then J. Fischer. As is Ukraine today with Rebecca Harms, who would have bombed Donbass long time ago if it was her decision. The sad thing is, it's a carbon-copy of the procedure from back then. Utterly crazy trip for someone who witnessed the shite back then.
So prey tell, what is "crazy" about the simple facts I presented here? (and this is just a small sample of the stuff they did and do). Serious question and feel free to correct me if I lied about anything.
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 7 2014 18:51 utc | 163
Oh and current outings of R. Harms are available on twitter and co. According to her, there are no fascists in the Ukraine and the russian "terrorists" in the east are attacking poor little democratic Ukraine. And you call ME crazy? Go figure...
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 7 2014 18:53 utc | 164
@ 140 William Bowles: of course it's sucidal but what do they really have to lose? You can understand it as a sort of black humor on their side in a certain way. Noone takes it seriously, but it's "proper" rhetorics for the occasion. Might as well work one day in remote future (or so they hope).
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 7 2014 18:57 utc | 165
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 7, 2014 2:57:04 PM | 165
Read this Ukrainian Army General's piece on the Slavyansk pullout, it's instructive.
Is this Strelkov guy fighting WWII all over again? Does he really believe he can turn Donestsk (pop. c. 1,000,000) into a fortress and hold off the central government?
Ukrainian Army General Speaks His Mind, July 7th, 2014 – “Strelkov’s Operational Freedom”
And check out Strelkov's views after the withdrawal from Slavyansk
I have the feeling that this Strelkov fellow thought that Putin would ride in, Alexander Nevsky-style, and save the day, but this is the nasty world of real politik. I'll admit that judging by what I've read of him, he has the knack to lead, no doubt but lead where exactly?
Posted by: William Bowles | Jul 7 2014 19:16 utc | 166
There's an interesting blog post by Colonel Cassad. It turns out that there was a political dimension to Strelkov's coming to Donetsk. There was effectively a truce between the people in power in Donetsk and Kiev, through the oligarch Akhmetov, who does not like the idea of a DPR. Furthermore, it turns out that not much progress was made in creating political structures for the DPR. Also, a conspiracy was underway to bring the DPR back into the Ukraine. Strelkov's arrival in Donetsk with his militia will have the likely effect of putting a stop to those plans for betrayal. If the influence of Strelkov cannot be reduced through a smear campaign, attempts will be made to assassinate him.
@168 It may be difficult to smear Strelkov and Putin simultaneously but I'm sure some brilliant minds are working on it.
Posted by: dh | Jul 7 2014 21:07 utc | 169
@TomGard #104:
Strelkov was guided out by ukrainian troops dissident to Parubij /NATO-command, who want him out, but without massacres and cleansing and who resist the strategy of dragging Russian military in by all means.
Sounds like disinformation to me. Where did you hear that?
Ukie troops didn't have any problems firing upon the families who left Slavyanks with their men who are in the resistance.
Posted by: thomas | Jul 7, 2014 11:07:08 AM | 134
ah yes : Srebernica
A few other indisputable facts should not be overlooked:
Shortly before the Bosnian Serb attack on Srebrenica, the Muslim troops stationed in that enclave carried out murderous attacks on nearby Serb villages. These attacks were certain to incite Serb commanders to retaliate against the Srebrenica garrison.
Meanwhile, the Muslim high command in Sarajevo ordered the Srebrenica commanders, Oric and his lieutenants, to withdraw from Srebrenica, leaving thousands of his soldiers without commanders, without orders, and in total confusion when the foreseeable Serb attack occurred. Surviving Srebrenica Muslim officials have bitterly accused the Izetbegovic government of deliberately sacrificing them to the interests of his State.
According to the most thorough study of Srebrenica events, by Cees Wiebes for the Netherlands Institute for War Documentation report, the Bosnian Serb forces set out in July 1995 to reduce the area held by Bosnian Muslim forces on the outskirts of Srebrenica, and only decided to capture the town itself when they unexpectedly found it undefended.
"The VRS [Republika Srpska Army] advance went so well that the evening of July 9 saw an important ‘turning point’ [...] The Bosnian Serbs decided that they would no longer confine themselves to the southern part of the enclave, but would extend the operation and take the town of Srebrenica itself. Karadzic was informed that the results achieved now put the Drina Corps in a position to take the town; he had expressed his satisfaction with this and had agreed to a continuation of the operation to disarm the ‘Muslim terrorist gangs’ and to achieve a full demilitarization of the enclave. In this order, issued by Major General Zdravko Tolimir, it was also stated that Karadzic had determined that the safety of UNPROFOR soldiers and of the population should be ensured. Orders to this effect were to be provided to all participating units. [...] The orders made no mention of a forced relocation of the population. [...] A final instruction, also of significance, was that the population and prisoners of war should be treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention. On July 11 all of Srebrenica fell into the hands of the Bosnian Serbs."
In testimony to a French parliamentary commission inquiry into Srebrenica, General Philippe Morillon, the UNPROFOR officer who first called international attention to the Srebrenica enclave, stated his belief that Bosnian Serb forces had fallen into a "trap" when they decided to capture Srebrenica.
...Counting the victims
So we come to the question of numbers. The question is difficult, both because of the uncertainty that surrounds it, and because merely pointing to this uncertainty is instantly denounced as "revisionism" and lack of respect for the victims. This reproach is not logical. Victims are victims, whether few or many, and respect is not in proportion to their numbers.
The question of numbers is complex and has been dealt with in detail by others, recently by an independent international Srebrenica research group which will soon publish its findings in book form. (3)
Suffice it here to note the following:
1. The sacralization of the estimated number of victims. In many if not most disasters, initial estimates of casualties tend to be inflated, for various reasons, such as multiple reports of the same missing person, and are subsequently corrected downwards. This was the case for the World Trade Center disaster, where initial estimates of up to 10,000 victims were finally brought down to less than 3000, and there are many other examples. In the case of Srebrenica, the figure of 8,000 originated with September 1995 announcements by the International Committee of the Red Cross that it was seeking information about some 3,000 men reportedly detained as well as about some 5,000 who had fled to central Bosnia. Neither the Bosnian Serbs nor the Muslims were ever forthcoming with whatever information they had, and the "8,000" figure has tended ever since to be repeated as an established total of "Muslim men and boys executed by Serb forces". It can be noted that this was always an estimate, the sum of two separate groups, the smaller one of prisoners (whose execution would be a clear war crime) and the larger one of retreating troops (whose "massacre" as they fled would be the usual tragic consequence of bitter civil war). Anyone familiar with the workings of journalism knows that there is a sort of professional inertia which leads reporters to repeat whatever figure they find in previous reports, without verification, and with a marked preference for big numbers. This inertia is all the greater when no truly authoritative figures ever emerge.
The number of bodies exhumed.
Despite unprecedented efforts over the past ten years to recover bodies from the area around Srebrenica, less than 3,000 have been exhumed, and these include soldiers and others-Serb as well as Muslim-who died in the vicious combats that took place during three years of war. Only a fraction have been identified.
etc
http://www.counterpunch.org/2005/10/12/srebrenica-revisited/
Posted by: brian | Jul 7 2014 22:53 utc | 171
ess emm @68
Don't worry. If this one goes, another one will pop up to replace him. Remember how many times the same leader of al Qaeda was killed when that franchise was the market leader in the GWOT market.
Posted by: Yonatan | Jul 7 2014 22:56 utc | 172
interesting that my posts on Srebrenica arent being posted! are they being removed?
Posted by: brian | Jul 7 2014 23:04 utc | 173
scalawag @156
There was a comprehensive set of articles in Der Spiegel in 2009 detailing the process. 42.90 euro for an arm at the time. The parties were Ukraine (retrieval), German (processing OK but use is not), US (recipients) and ???. The modus operandi suggests that tissue is recovered and matched to recipients who the have to travel pronto to a suitable hospital / clinic. This suggests the recipients are those who can buy their way to the top of waiting lists. Maybe this explains the 4 private jets sitting incommunicado at Kiev Borispol a while ago.
Posted by: Yonatan | Jul 7 2014 23:09 utc | 174
The Ukraine Nazi Right Wing manifesto includes an intent to acquire nuclear weapons, and to use them pre-emptively. Just to make things worse (or was it forward planning?) the US encouraged Ukraine to establish some loosely regulated bio-weapon laboratories (one near Odessa, one near Kharkhiv, others ?) that wouldn't get the go ahead in the US.
I must admit any concerns for the Iranians acquiring nukes (probability ~0), the SIS nutters (who knows, but probably ~0 without a lot of help from an Invisible Hand), but these Ukrainian Bezerkers? They are sufficiently full of themselves and are prepared to murder anyone who doesn't bow before them. In a rational Europe, they would be taken out by all sane countries before things really get out of hand.
Posted by: Yonatan | Jul 7 2014 23:20 utc | 175
Posted by: Demian | Jul 7, 2014 5:38:54 PM | 170
"@TomGard #104:
Strelkov was guided out by ukrainian troops dissident to Parubij /NATO-command, who want him out, but without massacres and cleansing and who resist the strategy of dragging Russian military in by all means."
LOL. I missed that establishment butt banditry from Tom "Flight MH370 was abducted by aliens" Gard. That's one dedicated employee where reading a comment or two of their spam, it was obvious there was no point in pausing the usual MoA zionist garbage curser scrolling action. :D
Posted by: Yonatan | Jul 7, 2014 7:09:07 PM | 173
"There was a comprehensive set of articles in Der Spiegel in 2009 detailing the process. 42.90 euro for an arm at the time. The parties were Ukraine (retrieval), German (processing OK but use is not), US (recipients) and ???. The modus operandi suggests that tissue is recovered and matched to recipients who the have to travel pronto to a suitable hospital / clinic. This suggests the recipients are those who can buy their way to the top of waiting lists."
It's very big money.
"Maybe this explains the 4 private jets sitting incommunicado at Kiev Borispol a while ago."
Very good point. I didn't think of that angle when I saw the reports on those "special" planes. Makes a lot of sense.
Interesting how this human organ trafficking evidence elicits almost no interest on this predominantly Jewish site...
Posted by: scalawag | Jul 8 2014 0:08 utc | 176
Posted by: brian | Jul 7, 2014 7:04:38 PM | 172
"interesting that my posts on Srebrenica arent being posted! are they being removed?"
If it is what I've experienced, they are being held up for site owner approval. There is a rather elaborate censorship criteria on this site. You either linked to a no-no site, or they have flagged specific words in your posts. The comments are held for "review". MoA will look those posts over and decide whether to delete them permanently. If eventually posted, the 12-24 hour+ delay guarantees hardly anybody will see them, and the discussion will have moved on, which is the whole point of that sort of censorship. You, Brian, have already caught the eye of the MoA establishment for you earlier posts, remember the asinine warnings you were getting, once that happens, you then get singled out for "special treatment" for being an establishment "hostile".
Posted by: scalawag | Jul 8 2014 0:36 utc | 177
I believe b is absolutely correct in this post. Spot on.
Posted by: b4real | Jul 8 2014 1:03 utc | 178
@scalawag #176:
Interesting how this human organ trafficking evidence elicits almost no interest on this predominantly Jewish site...
Has this been reported in the Russian, as opposed to Novorossian, press? The Novorossian press also reported today that the Ukies shot a mother and two of her children in a public square after the freedom fighters left.
It seems that human organ trafficking stories always pop up in contemporary civil wars. For example, Valley of the Wolves: Iraq has an American doctor harvesting organs from prisoners. (If you are going to see one movie about the Iraq war, by the way, see this one.)
Posted by: Demian | Jul 7, 2014 9:25:43 PM | 178
And?
Besides the fact that YOU, yes YOU, damian, do not like that your people are being singled out. Even bevin is more clever than you. :D
Have you reserved your place on "the list"? If not, do you not think it is time to save up for the future? You are not getting any younger...
Posted by: scalawag | Jul 8 2014 1:50 utc | 180
excellent discussion of Ukraine by Rick Rozoff
http://rickrozoff.wordpress.com/2014/07/07/radio-interview-on-ukrainian-war/
Posted by: Cu Chulainn | Jul 8 2014 2:04 utc | 181
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/07/polkovnik-colonel-strelkov.html Polkovnik (Colonel) Strelkov
"by Auslander
Sketch by Christopher
I've read a lot of reports this morning about, according to The West, the 'catastrophic defeat of the terrorists and rebels with massive casualties' and the 'glorious victory of the Ukraine army in evicting the terrorists from their bastion of Slavyansk' sometimes followed with 'the incredible destruction carried out by the terrorists as they retreated through Slavyansk' and in one article 'the freeing of the scores of hostages held by the terrorists in some cases for months'. And so forth. On the other side of the spectrum are 'Putin has to act now to save Novorossiya or he's done for', 'Putin is betraying the people of Donetsk and Lugansk when he said he would save them', 'Strelkov is a traitor' and 'Strelkov is a coward, he should have fought harder'. And so forth.
All of this is easy to say while we sit in front of our computers in relative comfort. We could just as easily sit here and argue that if Lee had listened to Longstreet and gone around the Yankee army gathering at Gettysburg he could have fought on ground of his choosing, beat the danged Yankees, taken Washington and won the war. We were not there, we were not privy to the conversations, we were not privy to the recon reports nor did we hear the supposed shouts from Richmond to 'get on with it, win the war' or the complaints of the citizenry to Lincoln about a rebel army sitting on the doorstep of Washington, just as none of us are privy to what Colonel Strelkov wanted to accomplish, what his information was, what his supply situation was and is, what his orders were and are, his conversations with his subordinates, nothing, nor are we privy to Mr. Putins plans long term and short, his conversations with his advisors and allies, his goals and ambitions.
Most of us only know what we are allowed to know and we know what we know generally after the fact. We can surmise, we can pontificate, but most of us know nothing of what will happen, only what has happened and precious little of that. What follows, and it's pretty short and sweet, is what I know has happened.
Colonel Strelkov arrived up north in April. He had with him 20 or so men. That's all. Not all were armed and some of the armed ones had bolt action rifles from the second war. This was the nucleus of what Strelkov built. In the first early weeks several hundreds of men rallied to the new colors and volunteered for service with Strelkov. It was with these men that Strelkov held off the first tentative attempts by the Ukes to enter Slavyansk. It was his men that took Karachun Mountain and it was his men who could not hold the mountain, to be specific the radio/TV tower that used to be up there, against a heavily armed Uke force that was determined to take it back. With the Ukes holding Karachun Mountain (in reality a long series of high hills) they could see all of Slavyansk and Kramatorsk and the surrounding towns and villages, rail lines, the local airports as such, and the main and secondary roads in the whole area. The die was cast. Was it a trap for the Ukes? We'll find out when the memoirs are written in the coming years.
As the situation developed the Ukes poured in more and more troops to the Slavyansk area, both the regular army and the new 'national guard', which is nothing more that right sector under arms. Several of the Uke regular army units refused to fight against their fellow countrymen and one airborne unit surrendered and left, leaving half a dozen light tanks in the possession of Strelkov's forces. At the same time, in a desperate bid to get more weapons for his burgeoning little army Strelkov's men took several Militsiya (criminal police, pun intended) and DAI (traffic police, totally corrupt and useless) armories and managed to arm all his men with Kalashnikovs, light and medium machine guns and sniper rifles. Don't ask me why two police organizations have a huge amount of weapons but they do. We did the same thing here in Krim when we armed up to defend ourselves and our north borders from right sector thugs on their way down here from Maidan.
As time progressed the Ukes began to make stronger attempts to get in to Slavyansk and Kramatorsk. Each and every one failed with sometimes significant losses to the Ukes. It seems that Strelkov always managed to get a few more men where they were needed most at the last minute. At the same time small units began to stalk and hunt the Uke supply columns day and night in addition to small patrol units. In this way antitank weapons, automatic grenade launchers, medical supplies, large ammunition supplies and at least 3 towed twin barrel anti aircraft guns were obtained. Still, Strelkov was fighting on a shoestring and he seems to have known it.
As May ended the bombardments of Slavyansk, Kramatorsk and other towns and villages began. The Ukes installed more and more medium and heavy artillery on the crests of Karachun, both towed and SP. Tanks by the hundreds arrived in the area as did troops by the thousands and BTR, BMP and BMD light armored vehicles in the many hundreds. And still, try as they might they could not break in to either Slavyansk or Kramatorsk although they tried, twice mightily. Each time they failed to enter either city the Ukes increased the level of bombardments. Almost all were not aimed at Strelkov's men or areas, they were patently aimed at civilian infrastructure, the electric, gas, water and sewage facilities, civilian living areas including not only villages but large areas of 5 to 11 story flats houses, shops and industry. Civilian losses grew exponentially.
Air attacks started in June. In addition to the attack on the administration building in Lugansk on 03 June, two of Strelkov's small units were savaged by Mi 24 ground attack choppers. Two days later Strelkov obtained air defense missiles of the shoulder fired variety and began to knock the Uke airframes from the sky. Did they come from Russia? How the heck would I know? Go up there yourself, find some discarded empty tubes and run the serial numbers. Same with the 5 T 64 upgrades Strelkov has and the now two T 72s. Run the numbers and tell me where they came from. I know their origin, the Uke army, just like every BTR, BMP and BMD Strelkov has. How do you capture tanks and other armored vehicles? Simple. When you own the battlefield, no matter how small it may be, after the fight you get the spoils. Poorly trained and motivated tankers and AFV crews are notorious for bailing out of their iron warhorses at the first loud 'thump' on the side. They'll bail rather than risk burning to death in their iron coffins. The trick then is to kill the crew so they don't simply go back to base and get another one. It takes under wartime conditions a week or less to assemble a tank. It takes six months to field a well trained and motivated tank crew.
As mid June approached, 80% of the entire Uke army was arrayed around Slavyansk and Kramatorsk. The fighting became more and more savage. Grad and Hurricane MLRS joined the bombardments of the cities and towns. Civilian losses were getting horrendous. The West was silent, literally hardly a word said in the MSM. Both cities and surrounding towns and villages were cut off and the critical supply of diesel and benzine was running out.
On 05 July Strelkov evacuated Slavyansk and Kramatorsk, pulling almost all of his fighters in. A very few small volunteer units were left in the cities to discourage any Uke advance to interfere with the evacuation (almost all survived and have returned to the fold). As it turned out a two kilometer long column of trucks, AFV's, tanks, GAZ jeeps and civilian vehicles left well before dawn, taking every last piece of equipment with them and every bullet and weapon they had. Nothing was left for the Ukes. This was not a spur of the moment run for cover, this was a well planned and executed tactical withdrawal, I would say two weeks minimum in the making. Most of the fighters from Slavyansk and Kramatorsk managed to get their families out with the withdrawal. To the best of my knowledge the entire move was executed with 3 casualties, all civilian at the tail end of the column. My information says they all made it and the wounds were not life threatening.
AAR (After Action Review). For three months Polkovnik Strelkov tied down the vast majority of the Ukeland Army in his small area. His position was untenable from the beginning. He and his men persevered and fought. He commenced a well planned and masterfully executed evacuation of his forces and many civilians in the dark of night under the very noses of a force that vastly outnumbered him and that force was arrayed all around him. The evacuation column arrived to Donetsk in broad daylight. He arrived with 20 men in April and three months later left with an army of reasonably well equipped, very well trained, and blooded veterans after savaging many units of the Uke army. In the time he held the Ukes off Novorossiya was formed and the infrastructure put in place. I would say the good Tovarich Polkovnik performed his task rather well."
Posted by: scalawag | Jul 8 2014 3:17 utc | 182
I have posted a couple of pieces written by "Auslander" before. He is somebody working very hard to help refugees from the Ukraine. Those who would like to help also can start here:
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/06/auslander-reports-on-refugees-from.html Auslander reports on refugees from the Ukraine and how to help them
Posted by: scalawag | Jul 8 2014 3:29 utc | 183
Comment: Nothing from Strelkov today. In the new capacity (commandant of Donetsk/garrison commander) it is harder to get things done than lashing at enemy from trenches. Novorossiya may politically fail; this though being whole new story
Posted by: Fete | Jul 8 2014 3:56 utc | 184
Posted by: scalawag | Jul 7, 2014 8:36:04 PM | 176
i linked to a 2005 Diana Johnstone article on Counterpunch
Posted by: brian | Jul 8 2014 4:58 utc | 185
The NY Times is getting sloppy and dumb:
Ukrainian officials said Monday that they had succeeded in sealing the previously porous border with Russia, stopping the influx of new weapons and fighters.
There have been absolutely no reports in the Russian media about the fascists making any effort since the rebels left Slavyansk to regain control of border station that rebels now control. If the fascists actually succeeded in sealing the Russian border, that would be gave over for the freedom fighters, unless Russia intervened. You'd think that the Times could at least qualify such a momentous claim with a "could not be independently verified". But no, Times "correspondents" are so used to being stenographers for Washington officials that they do the same for Ukie fascists now.
But at least the article admits that the conflict in the former Ukraine "has effectively become a vicious civil war". Maybe when all is said and done, it will be called the Novorossian War of Independence?
@ 166 William: I can't tell you why or prove it, but I have quite a strong feeling that this Strwelkov guy is either a decoy or some sort of double agent.
There is no way in hell that an actual military commander occupied with figting, commanding, planing and strategy will have time or intentions to post his every move on twitter several times a day. All that while talking about many strategically imoportant details, troop miovements, casualties etc etc. Probably posting via his iPad or so...
Let me just say, this stinks to high heaven. It's pure, filtered, highly concentrated bullshit. IMO of course and I can't give you any hard facts to back it, but the obvious stupidity and senselessness of this whole act.
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 8 2014 6:30 utc | 187
@T2015 #186:
Does it matter? By what he said in his persistent online/media presence, he convinced everyone, that he was going to stay in Slavyansk to fight to the death. This made leaving the city in an orderly fashion easier. It's called psy-ops.
Here we go again, more sanctions on Russia.
http://presstv.com/detail/2014/07/08/370366/eu-agrees-to-expand-russia-sanctions/
Exactly why?
Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 8 2014 6:59 utc | 189
@Anonymous #188:
This just seems to be a pointless game that the EU and the US feel they need to play with each other for some reason. All this "new round" of sanctions will involve, judging by that article, is adding people to the list of those who are sanctioned.
My impression of what's going on at present is that the Russians are humoring the Europeans, while the Europeans are humoring the Americans.
Lest someone is disappointed that I left out the Ukrainians, I'm afraid I will have to stoop to scalawag's level here. They are jerking themselves off, while giving blow jobs to the Europeans and being fucked in the ass by the Americans.
Demian @170
What I said is conclusion, but there is direct evidence also, given by german edition of Rian:
http://de.ria.ru/zeitungen/20140707/268938189.html
http://de.ria.ru/politics/20140707/268938158.html
@ Demian, this was way too stupid for a psyops. If anything, there is a bigger psyops behind that which none of us has recognized yet.
@ Tom Gard: just making sure - you DO know the actual meaning of the word "evidence"?
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 8 2014 8:01 utc | 192
T2015 #191
No sweat. What I linked to is not evidence in the sense of "proof" (btw: what could "proof" duly mean outside the judiciary field?!) nor "record", but "indication". E.g. the FACT (you know, where the word fact comes from?) that the convoy HAD to be on the road for at least 2 hours (they say it were three) PLUS that it WAS attacked!
That is quite near to judicial proof. And it's the reason for this guy Gerashtchenko feeling the need to assert, they let the convoy pass with regard to "hostages". But why didn't they simply stop it then by artillery - barrages on its way?
Sorry but all I see there is a statement by some unnamed "journalist" unbacked by anything at all.
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 8 2014 9:30 utc | 194
Btw. @ Tom:
"fact (fækt)
n
1. an event or thing known to have happened or existed
2. a truth verifiable from experience or observation
3. a piece of information: get me all the facts of this case.
4. (Law) law (often plural) an actual event, happening, etc, as distinguished from its legal consequences. Questions of fact are decided by the jury, questions of law by the court or judge
5. (Philosophy) philosophy a proposition that may be either true or false, as contrasted with an evaluative statement
6. (Law) after the fact criminal law after the commission of the offence: an accessory after the fact.
7. (Law) before the fact criminal law before the commission of the offence
8. as a matter of fact in fact in point of fact in reality or actuality
9. fact of life an inescapable truth, esp an unpleasant one
10. the fact of the matter the truth"
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 8 2014 9:32 utc | 195
" ... all I see there is a statement by some unnamed "journalist" unbacked by anything at all."
That is a colloquial (grammatically incorrect) proposition of a fact ("something that is done", it had to be put "all I saw (or: could see) ...") that either is truefully referred or lied about. I suppose you lied.
btw:
1,2,5 are false propositions, i.e. they are either contradictory or no propositions at all, since tautologic. The rest are definitions made more or less binding by (military) authorities.
The reason, why I anwer this: You give an example for the kind of thinking of an authoritarian charakter fiercly determined to submiss to a authority that choose him to submiss, by pretending the choice to be his own ...
is someone compiling alist of Psakisms? even better than Bushisms
cause...hot damn!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCy4ndFvF4Q
Posted by: brian | Jul 8 2014 11:26 utc | 198
Posted by: Demian | Jul 8, 2014 1:43:29 AM | 185
any of this remind you of a mirror of Syria? only with the rebels (real local ones) in ukraine being seen as bad by the empire, and 'rebels'(fake and foreign) in syria being seen as good
Posted by: brian | Jul 8 2014 11:28 utc | 199
scalawag @175
No one in the MSM will touch it. I have tried to raise it on some other high profile US blogs (non MSM) and they won't touch it either. I hope the Russians are aware of it. I think they produce something called the 'White Book' document human rights abuses in Ukraine. Maybe it should be in there? Putin should raise a stink about it as no one else will.
Posted by: Yonatan | Jul 8 2014 11:28 utc | 200
The comments to this entry are closed.
@Anonymous #94:
I don't think they are on a tactical level. (I hope that makes sense; I am not a military person.) Not destroying Strelkov and his militia when they left Slavyansk was a major failure. As an American, I hope that if the US military had been directing the cordon around Slavyansk, they wouldn't have let that happen. (I also think, from what I have read, that the competence in combat of the US military is significantly higher than that of NATO in general.)
If Strelkov's militia had been destroyed (something the Russian military would certainly have done in the fascists' place), the civil war would pretty much be over. The only thing left for the resistance to do would be strictly guerrilla, partisan type activity. They would not be in the position to control any territory.
Posted by: Demian | Jul 7 2014 8:43 utc | 101