Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 29, 2014

Ukraine: Pentagon Sees Ballistic Missile Launches - Why Then No MH17 Data?

Pentagon officials tell CNN (video) that the Ukrainian government fired three ballistic missiles towards the federalists during the last 48 hours. Such missiles have ranges from 50 miles up to some 600 miles and carry warheads with some 1,000 pounds or more of explosives.

This is a huge qualitative escalation of the conflict. It shows that the Ukrainian military is in real trouble as it now has resorts increasingly to very indiscriminate, imprecise and large weapons.

But there is one even more important issues that CNN will certainly not mention.

The U.S., like Russia, has satellites that watch for bigger missile launches. Some of these satellites are in a geostationary orbit. They permanently observe one area. Other are in a Low Earth Orbit (LEO) and give a more detailed picture, but as they circulate the earth, for only the time of the overflight. That the Pentagon watched three ballistic missile launches lets me believe that a geostationary satellite with permanent observation was used in this case.

But if there is a U.S. geostationary infrared satellite watching Ukraine all the time it must also have observed the alleged launch of a BUK-1 anti-air missile against the flight MH17. Air-defense missiles release a lot of energy at launch and would be seen as significant, very fast growing white blob on an infrared picture.

The U.S. therefore obviously knows if, when and exactly from where a BUK-1 missile was launched against MH17. That the U.S. detected the ballistic missile launches makes this conclusion inevitable.

Why then is the U.S. not releasing the data of the BUK-1 launch against MH17?

Posted by b on July 29, 2014 at 15:54 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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On the website of Austrian Wings Buk and S25 explainer

a) You can customize a SU 25 with weapons of larger reach.

b) Bullet holes might be the sign of surface to air missile like in Sibir flight 812

Seems to me the Russian questions laid a trail to blame Ukraine no matter what the outcome of the investigation, same strategy as US with more "evidence" shown.


Posted by: somebody | Jul 30 2014 17:10 utc | 101

You're confused. Imperialism and british monetarism is what actually prevented capitalism and truly free market. The imperialism has to go, so the real, natural capitalism (as in free enterprise, freely exchanging goods and services for mutually agreed amount of cash/goods) can finally arrive.
Posted by: T2015 | Jul 30, 2014 1:47:33 AM | 60

Nope that's not Capitalism. That's free enterprise. Capitalism is truly just the accumulation of Capital, which inherently destroys free enterprise as it relies on the creation of monopolies; the greater the monopoly, the greater the surplus value, the greater the capital accumulation. Hell, even the Soviet Union actually had a capitalist economy.

Posted by: skuppers | Jul 30 2014 17:11 utc | 102

An SU-25 can fire pretty much any rocket from the russian arsenal, so the height/distance is a moot point this way or the other.

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 30 2014 17:31 utc | 104

... or whichever plane it might have been, if not SU-25.

But I still think it was a bomb inside the plane with the rest maybe on top for show.

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 30 2014 17:33 utc | 105

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 30, 2014 1:33:27 PM | 104

Or let's go all the way ... to a bomb inside MH 17, triggered remotely from a nearby Kiev fighter jet.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 30 2014 17:51 utc | 106

skuppers, I think we're too burdened with hollow academic speech. What I understand as capitalism would actually be what you call free enterprize. For free enterprize, you will also need capital and every house wife also has to accumulate some money for sudden challenges etc. or in order to grow a bigger family. I definitely do NOT understand anything monopolistic as capitalism, that is actually socialism - think about it without the academic context, just what the word means in simple english. In USSR you had a total state monopolism, which is possible only in so-called socialist systems. See China today as another example.

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 30 2014 17:55 utc | 107

Posted by: Mina | Jul 30, 2014 1:27:21 PM | 102

Thanks. From your link

Back on July 28 Inner City Press asked Russia's Ambassador to the UN Vitaly Churkin about this read-out: does the US support a ceasefire? “I supposed he said they did,” Churkin replied. “What their message is in private to the Ukrainians is a different story... There was a phone converation between Vice President Biden and President Poroshenko [then] they went up another stage in escalating the conflict after that and immediately.”

Sounds like real life ...

Posted by: somebody | Jul 30 2014 18:13 utc | 108

This is something not seen in the MSM because the MSM scribblers know that it would mean an instant pink slip.
NationalInterest, Jul 30, 2014
What Is at Stake in Ukraine
by Andranik Migranyan

...Russia's strategic line, defined by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs before the unification with Crimea, was a comprehensible formula, backed by the more prudent political analysts and strategists both in the U.S. and in the West: Russia supports the territorial integrity of Ukraine, the federalization of the country, its out-of-bloc status, and the adoption of Russian as a second state language.

In this context, Ukraine would be a buffer zone between Russia and the West. It is crucial for Russia to have a friendly country in this region of high sensitivity in politico-military and ethno-cultural terms.

If this order of things had been accepted by Washington and Kiev, Crimea would still be an integral part of Ukraine, and the country would not be engulfed in large-scale civil war. Yet neither Washington nor Kiev were ready for compromises. Instead, they played a zero-sum game with Russia....

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 30 2014 18:16 utc | 109

One suspects that Obama's latest US-EU sanctions on Russia will backfire in measurable ways.
And Putin has said as much.
Obama possibly 'forgot' that US sanctions are famous for targeting and harming civilians. I'm ultra-confident that Putin will do whatever it takes to protect Russian civilians from Obama's insanity.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 30 2014 18:25 utc | 110

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 30, 2014 2:16:43 PM | 108

Yep. That solution was there and Europe would have welcomed it.
Kyiv must be completely bribed to do what they are doing. It is not in their national interest.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 30 2014 18:34 utc | 111

"Petrodollars, Petroyuan, and the Ongoing Erosion of American Hegemony"
is the title of the latest post at http://goingtotehran.com/
US sanctions on Russia are very dangerous provided that Putin can keep the oligarchs under control, they play into the hands of those interested in ending the dollar's reign as the reserve currency in international trade.
It is often forgotten that the dollar has only held this position since 1971 when it ceased to be convertible into gold. And that Keynes at Bretton Woods on 1946 argued for a very different system.
I've only scanned the Leveretts' article but it seems very informative.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 30 2014 18:38 utc | 112

Moscow stock exchange has been down for over an hour today.

link

Reasons remain unclear :-). What a coincidence. First the sanctions and then this...

Posted by: peter radiator | Jul 30 2014 18:58 utc | 113

@ tom gard @ 99

Those (Su25) aircraft are armed with R60 missiles and 30mm automatic cannon..not "bullets"...this isn't 1917. Are you suggesting a civilian 777 is cannon and missile proof ?..And I don't think anyone has suggested the Ukrainian pilot "went mad", but that he was acting on orders.

Posted by: Marc | Jul 30 2014 19:02 utc | 114

Posted by: peter radiator | Jul 30, 2014 2:58:55 PM | 112

they are back, sounds like normal software glitch

and rising. Looks like the market had expected and prized in more sanctions than actually came.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 30 2014 19:06 utc | 115

@Mina

Thank you

Posted by: Luca K | Jul 30 2014 19:36 utc | 116

news report on new tougher sanctions:
The U.S. now has sanctioned five out of Russia's six largest state banks... the measures are expected to sharply restrict the ability of state-controlled banks such as Sberbank ...to raise capital on European markets.

"The aim is not to destroy these banks," said a senior EU official, briefing reporters on condition of anonymity prior to the sanctions' official announcement. "We do not want them to get into a liquidity crisis."

Perhaps the renminbi will come to the rescue.

from Going To Tehran:
“As China has emerged as a major player on the global energy scene, it has also embarked on an extended campaign to internationalise its currency....Chinese policymakers appreciate the 'advantages of incumbency' the dollar enjoys; their aim is not for renminbi to replace dollars, but to position the yuan alongside the greenback as a transactional and reserve currency.

So if Russia handles this properly (as Iran has done) it might hurt the dollar.

Meanwhile, looking at world current account balances, surplus first, Russia ranks number three behind China and Germany. Looking at deficits, USA #1 before UK, India and France.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 30 2014 20:44 utc | 117

Global research is reporting heavy Ukie casualties from their recent major offensives. This report included nearly 200 "American" mercenaries from "Academi" and something called PMC.. Without that blanket of total air superiority American mercenaries die in droves just like anyone else....something to consider Mr. Obama, Sen. Corker, Mr. Biden.. Mr/Mrs. Clintons

Posted by: Marc | Jul 30 2014 20:48 utc | 118

New York Times editorial - Vladimir Putin Can Stop This War

sounds like someone is suing for peace ... so yes, the Ukrainian army is not going to make it.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 30 2014 20:55 utc | 119

and this

Representatives of the Donetsk People’s Republic plan to participate in the meeting of the three-party group on Ukraine due on July 31 in Minsk, the republic’s prime minister has said. “We will be anyway present there, don’t worry. If this meeting ever takes place,” Aleksander Boroday said, refusing to give further details on who will represent Donetsk militia on security reasons.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 30 2014 20:57 utc | 120

Yonatan #96

I've read the SitRep by Juan at Saker a couple of times now - by the way I scanned RT and RIA and don't see anything yet, so this is the only source so far - and what I get from it is this:

4 ballistic missiles were launched. At the moment of launch the Russian troops surged towards the border. The moment the missiles were downed, the surge stopped. The troops have remained exactly where they stopped, neither going back nor forward.

Meanwhile the Ukie offensive has undertaken a noticeable and significant slowdown. Like maybe they were absorbing some implications here.

We don't have all the technical stuff yet, we only have Juan saying reliable sources say the missiles were shot down from inside Russia.

So, there's a red line. Don't fire ballistic missiles in the direction of Russia unless you're going all the way. Not for a second did Russia blink. By the way, all missiles were dropped on Ukie territory, before they reached their programmed height. They were not allowed to hit Novorossiya. So whatever nasty payloads the US wants to stuff in the next missiles, they better get ready to eat their own shit.

I hope all this pans out. Juan has been a great source. This information explicitly declares itself to be reliable information. So now maybe people can let go of Putin being weak and betraying brothers, and all that crap that's been flying around lately. Fucking Russia, man!

Posted by: Grieved | Jul 30 2014 20:58 utc | 121

Motivation is so important in any mortal combat, which is why 'our guys' never fight as well as 'their guys.' It's been demonstrated over and over again. Fighting for one's own homeland and freedom, and with a revengeful heart, can make all the difference.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 30 2014 21:23 utc | 122

@ somebody #119
Now in Minsk there will be a Russian-instigated diplomatic track which will have propaganda value if nothing else. Incidentally, Fox News reported recently that Borodai was skipping town to avoid a Ukie rout, part of the US-promoted "we're winning" public diplomacy (i.e. propaganda) war.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 30 2014 21:30 utc | 123

I am not sure the Ukrainian government is trusted by its Western allies.

From Australia

MS Bishop says she is aware of reports that Ukrainian rebels have been laying land mines on roads through to the crash site of the downed flight in eastern Ukraine.

The claims were reportedly by made a Ukrainian military spokesman.
"I don't know if those reports are confirmed," she told ABC radio on Thursday.
"If that is true, it is utterly despicable."
....
Ms Bishop said new information suggesting remains of up to 80 bodies were still on the site has made the joint team even more resolute and desperate to gain access.
"It's heartbreaking, it's so distressing.
"We have the team in place, we have the experts ready to work, and we can't get to the site."
The foreign minister is concerned that Russia could be actively undermining the access process.
The Ukrainian government had been offering strong support for a humanitarian corridor and ceasefire.
"We sent out a team in advance and they get halfway down the road ... sometimes three quarters of the way ... and then the shelling starts.
"Whilst I can't point the finger at who starts the shelling, we get absolute assurances from the Ukraine government that it's not them."

That's a lot of doubt in the facts as presented for a foreign minister ...

Posted by: somebody | Jul 30 2014 21:35 utc | 124

@ #123
Bishop's hotline to State's Australia Instruction Office must of broken down and she's at a loss for words. What's a puppet to do when the strings break?

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 30 2014 21:57 utc | 125

@122 I use yahoo news for home page. You need a thick skin to withstand the daily barrage of anti-Putin articles. Today it's 'We are Russia's cannon fodder' say rebels.

Posted by: dh | Jul 30 2014 22:15 utc | 126

Interessing source - yes the former Reagan consultant:

On Dominoes, WMDs And Putin’s “Aggression”: Imperial Washington Is Intoxicated By Another Big Lie | David Stockman's Contra Corner

Puleese! The Kiev government is a dysfunctional, bankrupt usurper that is deploying western taxpayer money to wage a vicious war on several million Russian-speaking citizens in the Donbas—-the traditional center of greater Russia’s coal, steel and industrial infrastructure. It is geographically part of present day Ukraine by historical happenstance. For better or worse, it was Stalin who financed its forced draft industrialization during the 1930s; populated it with Russian speakers to insure political reliability; and expelled the Nazi occupiers at immeasurable cost in blood and treasure during WWII. Indeed, the Donbas and Russia have been Saimese twins economically and politically not merely for decades, but centuries.

On the other hand, Kiev’s marauding army and militias would come to an instant halt without access to the $35 billion of promised aid from the IMF, EU and US treasury. Obama just needs to say “stop”. That’s it. The civil war would quickly end, permitting the US, Russia and the warring parties of the Ukraine to hold a peace conference and work out the details of a separation agreement.

Posted by: Fran | Jul 30 2014 22:28 utc | 127

'
Question for Assadists and pro-Assadists, such as MoA commenter Brian: It is politically unacceptable language to refer to the Syrian rebellion as a civil war? Or is it acceptable, Brian?


Posted by: Parviziyi | Jul 29, 2014 8:57:38 PM | 45

like WHOA!

i take it tha Parvs is an anti Assadists and so pro-ISIS...nice bit of casual revelation! Assad also is anti ziosnism...and anti US imperialism.

when you have a majority of militants being foreigners from the 4 corners of the world, Parcs, its not a rebellion nor is it a civil war...

its an aggressive invasion by US and israeli patsies: the supreme war crime

Posted by: brian | Jul 30 2014 22:31 utc | 128

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jul 29, 2014 8:45:50 PM | 44


german isnt and japan certainly isnt a soverieng state///the latter esp is under US military occupation: both serveb US interests, even if their own are compromised

Posted by: brian | Jul 30 2014 22:33 utc | 129

Ukies and the US NO-SEE-NO-TELL circus are now claiming that the crash site is mined...Crash site is mined, everyone......crash, site, is, mined.

Posted by: Marc | Jul 30 2014 22:46 utc | 130

The head of the anti-aircraft defense of the Russian infantry has written that it is unlikely that MH17 was downed by a Buk. This was in an article in a trade journal published today.

Генерал ПВО. «Бук» не сбивал Боинг.

Meanwhile, I have not seen any Russian language sites saying anything about four Yuke tactical ballistic missiles being shot down.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 30 2014 23:33 utc | 131

The head of the anti-aircraft defense of the Russian infantry has written that it is unlikely that MH17 was downed by a Buk. This was in an article in a trade journal published today. (The stupid web server won't let me post the link. Links to Novorossiyan web sites are verboten.)

Meanwhile, I have not seen any Russian language sites saying anything about four Yuke tactical ballistic missiles being shot down.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 30 2014 23:38 utc | 132

Demian @130

Have you seen any sites detailing where the missiles came down? The warheads have 500 kg of explosives which should make a pretty loud bang and leave a fairly large noticeable hole in the ground. The missiles were presumably aimed at concentrations of Donbass troops, so there should be numerous casualties, killed and wounded? Where is the evidence that the missiles hit the targets? After all, what goes up, must come down! If the Russians did knock out the missiles, the US and the Ukies would be aware of it, and that is all that counts.

Posted by: Yonatan | Jul 31 2014 0:02 utc | 133

here's a good article via cannonfire on ukraine...."Imperial Washington Is Intoxicated By Another Big Lie"

Posted by: james | Jul 31 2014 0:03 utc | 134

the kremlin stooge has a good article "To Sin By Silence: The Juggernaut of Ukrainian State Murder Lurches Onwardup" from yesterday as well..

Posted by: james | Jul 31 2014 0:22 utc | 135

@Yonatan #131:

No, I haven't seen anything about where the missiles came down.

A couple of comments at the Saker suggested that Russia may have disabled the missiles through a back door, since it built them.

Russia is being very tight lipped about the whole thing. As for USG, I am puzzled as to why it would leak that the junta fired ballistic missiles.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 31 2014 0:28 utc | 136

here">http://rbth.com/news/2014/07/29/boeings_downing_by_buk_missile_system_unlikely_-_military_expert_38607.html/">here is an article from the comment section at kremlin stooge suggesting strongly it was not a BUK that shoot down mh17..

Posted by: james | Jul 31 2014 0:40 utc | 137

@Ynatan #131:

Ah, there's a report from Novorossiya that an unexploded warhead from a ballistic missile was found in Lugansk.

В Луганской области обнаружены фрагменты баллистической ракеты

Posted by: Demian | Jul 31 2014 0:42 utc | 138

@Ynatan #131:

Ah, there's a report from Novorossiya that an unexploded warhead from a ballistic missile was found in Lugansk.

The blog software won't let me post the link.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 31 2014 0:44 utc | 139

Mobilization law does not seem popular in Western Ukraine

Posted by: somebody | Jul 31 2014 1:44 utc | 140

The Slow-Motion Collapse of the Ukrainian State and the Rada’s Capitulation

Ukraine has been a geopolitical chess piece for the US since its independence in 1991. Zbigniew Brzezinski wrote about its role as a pivot of America’s Eurasian influence in his 1997 work “The Grand Chessboard”, quipping that “Without Ukraine, Russia ceases to be a Eurasian empire”. This strategic advice was certainly heeded at the State Department, since Victoria Nuland admitted that the US had spent $5 billion for “democracy promotion” in Ukraine since 1991. This investment wasn’t for “democracy” but rather for regime change by mobocracy, as can be seen by the Maidan mobs that ravaged Kiev before the coup. The drawn-out urban warfare of EuroMaidan, coupled with an intense Western propaganda campaign of state demonization, inevitably led to the shredding of the state’s structure right after the coup. This is something which did not even happen after the 2004 Orange Revolution, when the governing apparatus still relatively functioned in comparison to today.

Amazingly, an interview with a "Ukrainian" "sociologist" in the New Left Review mentions none of this. It doesn't even mention Victoria Nuland or the US State Department! One of the interviewer's questions was "What do you think Russia’s motivations were for seizing the peninsula?"

The New Left Review has become a Russophobic rag. Yet it is the flagship publication of the Left. I think we can conclude from this that one consequence of the Kiev coup (the "expert" interviewed doesn't think it was a coup!) was the final, definitive death of the Left, in Europe, anyway. Sorry, bevin. Leftists of the religious Marxist variety simply cannot forgive Russia for abandoning communism, and this prevents them from understanding what is happening in the former Ukraine.

Anyway, back to the Oriental Review post.

In hindsight, the EuroMaidan coup may very well be seen as the fatal outside blow that wrecked Ukrainian statehood once and for all. The country is experiencing a painful and extended collapse before the eyes of the world, with the current political void being but the latest iteration of its downward spiral. Ukraine has gone over the edge and into unknown territory, with the only blueprint being the Yugoslavian scenario. The black hole of chaos inside of Ukraine is only growing, with the country now certainly exhibiting the symptoms of failed state status. There was an outside-engineered coup in a geopolitically convenient area, a proxy government, a merry-go-round parliament, a civil war that could possibly involve an intervention by its neighbor (Russia), and rabid nationalists scheming for power.

I think this is why Russia is not intervening military in the Ukraine. Doing so would forestall the implosion of the Ukraine.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 31 2014 2:59 utc | 141

Donetsk. 07/30/2014-19:44

Comment: Lasting for several days initially optimistic Ukrainian Army offensive has transformed into protracted phase. Seemingly, the original goal is still adhered: to take Gorlovka and Shakhtersk, and, severing Donetsk from Lugansk and the border with Russia, storm the city.

From this summary:

Russian Spring

In overall, the situation is serious, the opponent fights offensive on all parts of the front.
The combatants courageously fight back inflicting substantial losses on the opponent.

Posted by: Fete | Jul 31 2014 3:51 utc | 142

American journalists are crazy. Just ran across this at The Atlantic:

Just How Likely Is Another World War?

But it's not about the US getting into a war with Russia. It's about the US getting into a war with China.

It appears that American "opinion leaders" are having a nervous breakdown, faced with mounting evidence that the US does not rule the world anymore.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 31 2014 4:36 utc | 143

@ demian @ 138

The "New Left Review" publishes opinion piece/hit jobs from persons like Binoy Kampmark and Peter Lee ("china matters") ...Kampmark is a pabloite "socialist" of the "new left" type, the fake Trots - like Looey Proyect, etc., and Lee is a pro western , pro US, pro Globalism shil who harps mostly on China but who has written a few hit pieces about Crimea ("the Russian invasion") and MH17 recently.

Posted by: Marc | Jul 31 2014 5:01 utc | 144

@ demian @ 138


Your examples of the putrid establishment "left" have been dead for a long long time, Infiltrated and completely part of the establishment. BTW the new left review is the same kind of Pabloite rag who hated the Soviet Union, much less the thing about not forgiving it...

Check out some real Leftist input

http://www.wsws.org/

Posted by: Marc | Jul 31 2014 5:06 utc | 145

@Marc #142:

Thank you for the recommendation. I knew about that web site, but will now try to follow it.

As for NLR, I associate it with people like Giovanni Arrighi, Robert Brenner, and Perry Anderson. These are all serious scholars who have done a lot to analyze the nature of the Empire. So my personal impression is that the NLR publishing a hit piece on Russia, and thus showing itself to be just another outlet for the usual establishment dribble, is a recent development.

I had to look up "Pabloite" lol. I don't think that the new left hating the USSR is a cause for condemnation; I hated it, too. In hindsight, given developments since the collapse of the USSR, I realize that I was wrong.

FWIW, I consider myself to be a social democrat and a Left Hegelian. I have always seen Marx as a con artist, a failed philosopher who could not understand German philosophy (Kant and Hegel).

Hegel had already explained that unfettered capitalism leads to the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, and Marx didn't add anything to that but a lot of metaphysical obfuscation. Also, Marx didn't understand modernity, since he despised "bourgeois democracy".

Posted by: Demian | Jul 31 2014 5:49 utc | 146

A missile launch would leave behind trace elements

Subject Ukraine's BUK missiles to a full independent forensic audit to determine if any missiles have been fired and or missing.

Ukraine is the only state that has the motive, means and opportunit6y to deliberately shoot down a jet.

Posted by: UkrToday | Jul 31 2014 6:20 utc | 147

@ demian @ 143


I've always seen Marx as an Economist and not a Philosopher. With all due respect, I can probably make a prima facie argument that the Social Democrats and not Marx have proven to be the "con men". It is Orwell's beloved liberals who are wearing the forever-face stomping- jack boots, not the Marxists (of any stripe)

Posted by: Marc | Jul 31 2014 6:43 utc | 148

@Marc #145:

Sorry, I'm proceeding on a completely naive level here, but did not Scandinavian countries, with their welfare states (AKA social democracy) create a better form of live for their citizens than the Soviet Union did?

And leave liberals out of it. We can both agree that liberalism leads to fascism. (I asked bevin for the relevant text of Trotsky on that, but he never replied.) Social democracy and liberalism are two completely differenth things. Liberalism doesn't have a concept of society; social democracy certainly does.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 31 2014 7:17 utc | 149

Demian,
Yes, the Scandinavian countries produced a better life for their citizens than Soviet Union, but your so-called Social Democracy was actually full blown SOCIALISM. When Stalin came to power he destroyed Lenin's start at creating a true socialist system, from which USSR/Russia has never recovered. Not only did Stalin destroy Lenin's work, he hunted down and killed every true socialist that came out of the revolution who was still alive, including Trotsky living in Mexico.

One of the greatest tragedies of our time is the leoliberal takeover of the Scandinavian countries - the most enlightened countries the world has/had produced - now diminished by greed.

Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 31 2014 7:34 utc | 150

Demian@143
Peter Kropotkin on Marx' Das Kapital:
[from note #7 of PK's MemoirsOfARevolutionist edition later edited by James Allen Rogers]
On economist Marx and math:
"The excursions of Marx into the realm of quantitative expression and algebraic formula were ridiculous. They prove his complete incompetence to think concretely quantitatively. ...
To express by formulas what a formula does not express is indeed ridiculous."
[BTW, PK's autobio above was written in English, so does not suffer from translation. He was fluent in several languages] The particular edition by JARogers did however omit some vital paragraphs.]

Also, this rather suppressed data direct from Lenin, himself, on meaning of Bolshevism,
at 26:45 on tape* G.Seldes quoting Lenin's response to a press question [after L's recovery from stroke]

"Why do you Americans make such a terrific campaign against Bolshevism? After all, what is Bolshevism? Bolshevism is an interpretation of Marx. It is interpretation of Marxian Socialism originated by an American.
[Press asks Who? Who?] Why, his name was Daniel DeLeon."

From journalist George Seldes' interview at age 95 [died at 104 in 1995] now on YouTube. Real first-person history! Few ever heard of DeLeon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1z_dzJoRGY

Posted by: wattman | Jul 31 2014 7:39 utc | 151

@okie farmer #147:

I must say that your comment confuses me. I had just been getting used to the idea that Stalin was not as evil as I was led to believe by my education and upbringing, but here you are, saying that it was Stalin who screwed everything up. (My view remains that it is Marx who was the main culprit, with his perversion of Hegelian philosophy; not Lenin, Trotsky, or Stalin.)

Lenin and Trotsky had their "war communism", which they openly described as the state imposing terror on its population. Sorry, but I don't believe that such an approach is acceptable. Lenin and Trotsky did to Russians what the US did to Iraq and countless other countries.

The Bolsheviks, under Lenin and following Marxist ideology, originally abolished money. However, a modern society can't function without money (Star Trek, the Original Series notwithstanding). The Bolsheviks had to bring back money. So I don't see how you can claim that Lenin created anything that was viable.

If you want to call what the Scandinavian countries had before they embraced neoliberalism "full blown socialism", fine. The fact remains that their political systems were democratic, not based on the "dictatorship of the proletariat".

Posted by: Demian | Jul 31 2014 7:56 utc | 152

Demian,

I had just been getting used to the idea that Stalin was not as evil as I was led to believe by my education and upbringing, but here you are, saying that it was Stalin who screwed everything up. (My view remains that it is Marx who was the main culprit, with his perversion of Hegelian philosophy; not Lenin, Trotsky, or Stalin.)

I don't agree with any of this statement, but I also don't want to get into arguments about dialectical materialism, so I think we should just agree to disagree.

As someone suggested above, http://www.wsws.org/ is an excellent site for understanding where Marxism is today.

Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 31 2014 8:05 utc | 153

Why do you Americans make such a terrific campaign against Bolshevism? After all, what is Bolshevism? Bolshevism is an interpretation of Marx. It is interpretation of Marxian Socialism originated by an American."

He should have added

    . . . And paid for by Jewish Zionist Wall St. Bankers

But that would have probably been just a little too much truth for the poor communists to swallow.

Imagine the resultant apoplexy from all the fakes and pseuds ! :)

He probably didn't want to thin the ranks of all those "useful idiots" since he planned to use em in the future

Posted by: Priceless | Jul 31 2014 9:01 utc | 154

Official Ukrainian Military Report of Losses for July 9-15, 2014(Arsen Avakov, Minister of Interior and V. Gritsak, Head of the ATO)
1. Desertions: 3473
2. Killed in Action: 1600
3. Wounded in Action: 4723
4. Tanks: 35
5. Armoured Battle Vehicles: 96
6. Artillery : 38
7. Aircraft: 7
8. Helicopters: 2
9. Automobiles: 104
In the event the negative trend continues…I estimate that 2/3 of the active combat military units currently participating in the ATO will simply cease to exist in as little as 4 to 5 days.
Signed,
V. Nalyvaichenko, Security Service
Agreed,
B. Hrytsak, Antiterorist Center Security Service
'This report is mind-boggling. Notice, the data is for one week in July only! The same report mentions that Donbass self-defence lost only about 45 people in the same period! Meanwhile, again, according to the same report, around 500 peaceful citizens died in the same timeframe! Clearly, Kiev targets with its bombings exclusively the peaceful population. Kiev dominates the sky, as Donbass self-defence has no planes, nor pilots. At the same time, Kiev is afraid to go head-to-head with self-defence, as they get beaten every time.'
http://futuristrendcast.wordpress.com/2014/07/28/predictions-kiev-junta-losses-botched-false-flag-foreign-mercenaries-shale-gas-in-ukraine-goes-puff-how-long-has-the-kiev-junta-left/

Posted by: brian | Jul 31 2014 10:06 utc | 155

nothing like hypocrisy... a british passport with an sudanese(islamic?) name...
Valentina Lisitsa ‏@ValLisitsa 1h
PM Cameron demands Russia cease support for rebels.
In other news: rebels capture
BRITISH NATIONALS mercenaries.
http://m.vk.com/wall-57424472_9751
31.07.14. Фото-доказательства от ополчения.

Фото документов наемников хунты из-под Донецка. Пойманные наёмники оказались суданцами с гражданством Великобритании.
Photography documents mercenaries junta from the Donetsk. Caught Sudanese mercenaries were with British citizenship.

Posted by: brian | Jul 31 2014 11:15 utc | 156

The analysis at WSWS is as good as you will read anywhere.
The site is indispensable.

Posted by: plantman | Jul 31 2014 13:47 utc | 157

I'd love to see a debris trail mapped of flight 93 on the day that changed everything.
Tom Gard;I'm a mushroom in the dark,and know I have no factual truth,as it has been obscured by serial liars,but we can read license plates from space,or so they say,and we have produced absolutely no evidence of a BUK,and neither have the Russians,so I conclude there is something going on backstage,between the parties.
This story is obviously not to our governments advantage,or else we'd hear all about it,from the Nazi MSM.
What ever happened to the Spanish air controller?

Posted by: dahoit | Jul 31 2014 14:13 utc | 158

Lie sow death - about this page

Posted by: Juons | Jul 31 2014 21:01 utc | 159

recent tweet
Pentagon: Ukrainian forces 'showing increasing effectiveness' in fight against Russian-backed separatists
--which means they are not, of course

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 31 2014 21:40 utc | 160

@Don Bacon #1260:

Here are a couple of videos of how Ukrainian soldiers end up. I have never seen such badly mangled bodies.

The first video is of some Ukrainian "intellectual" saying that 1.5 million residents of Donbass should be killed. (Russian subtitles only.)

Posted by: Demian | Jul 31 2014 22:18 utc | 161

@Don Bacon #1260:

Here are a couple of videos of how Ukrainian soldiers end up. I have never seen such badly mangled bodies. (The blog won't let me link to Colonel Cassad, so I am giving the YouTube links from Cassad's post.)

video 1
video 2

Posted by: Demian | Jul 31 2014 22:24 utc | 162

putin answering questions on us sanctions and ukraine..

Posted by: james | Jul 31 2014 23:47 utc | 163

International Forensic Investigators Come Under Fire at Plane Crash Site

After four days of failed attempts to reach the area in the rebel-held region of Donetsk, the group arrived in three vehicles at the crash site near the village of Grabove, apparently without the knowledge of pro-Russian separatists and government forces fighting each other.

Good for the investigators. I guess they have some balls.

The good news is that the Ukes don't appear to have made it to the crash site yet.

Posted by: Demian | Aug 1 2014 3:14 utc | 164

Russian Spring

Donetsk. 08/01/2014-02:28

Question: Activists report 11 Ukrainian tanks broke into city Yasinovataya. 6 tanks drove to the square in front of railway station, other are around the city. The combat ensued.

Strelkov:

Stop panicking. There were just 2 tanks on “the square in front of railway station”, then, emerged 1 armored carrier. The carrier was burned; both tanks were hit by self-propelled grenades and ran away. As Yasinovataya was in our hands as it is.

Russian Spring

Donetsk. 07/31/2014-17:59

Strelkov:

According to data we have received, furthermore, this data corroborate, during three nights, military cargo planes transported three pieces – three missiles for “Tochka-U” (“Point-U”) launchers - to the territory of city Kramatorsk.

These missiles are currently being serviced in preparation for launch. Presumable targets for these missiles are the water treatment plants of cities Donetsk and Lugansk. There, for your information, 122 and 160 tons of chlorine are stored respectively.

A backup target is a plant “Stirol” in city Gorlovka with a storage of ammonia.

It is assumed that before launching these missiles, the media would start a propaganda campaign accusing the combatants of conspiring terroristic acts on chemical plants of Donetsk and Lugansk.

Let me repeat it again, if my eyes did not see the efforts of the Ukranian troops to exteminate our population - their own population, as they consider; if I did not see, how, say it mildly, they carelessly treat the lives and interests of the citizens – their own citizens, I would probably regard this information as a sick joke. But having seen what happens, I believe everything.

The consequences could be horrific. Depending on the wind rose, the poisoning by the chlorine vapors could stretch, for example, from Donetsk to Volnovakha, where anything living would be killed… The stocked amount of chlorine is enough to kill anything on alarge territory.

I hope that this announcement we make today will prevent such a barbaric method of conducting the punitive operation.


Posted by: Fete | Aug 1 2014 4:48 utc | 165

Posted by: james | Jul 31, 2014 7:47:11 PM | 162

Yes. The questions and answers are interesting. Questions are obviously staged.

The body language. Putin seems to attempt becoming a Western style politician "showing emotion". Long way to go.

The Moscow Tube question. Strange example. Two hunters shooting at a bush and accidentally hitting a man. Would fit MH17.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 1 2014 5:49 utc | 166

@somebody #165:

The body language. Putin seems to attempt becoming a Western style politician "showing emotion". Long way to go.

Why do you hate Russians so much?

Putin comes across as totally authentic to me, unlike any current Western politician. Yet you feel the need to join in the current Western Putin bashing.

Look, the Russians beat the Germans in World War II after the Germans attacked them, but it is the Americans who are now oppressing the Germans, not the Russians. So your hatred of Russians is completely irrational.

Posted by: Demian | Aug 1 2014 6:52 utc | 167

Posted by: Demian | Aug 1, 2014 2:52:34 AM | 166

Come on, the body language is funny. He seems to be in the middle of coaching.

Compare to practically immovable face in interview here.

No, it has got nothing to do with Russia and Russians. This here is Medvediev comfortable in his skin - though his message is much harder.

You can see it in Western politicians, too. Compare shrill young Thatcher to the elder states lady and the stages in between, same applies to Angela Merkel ...

Posted by: somebody | Aug 1 2014 7:44 utc | 168

Posted by: somebody | Aug 1, 2014 3:44:02 AM | 167

Above Medvediev interview on Russian policia re Georgia, Ossetia, Abchasia is interesting for its content, too, as it clearly states Russian policy which presumably applies re Ukraine.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 1 2014 8:02 utc | 169

somebody 167

Record yourself/your face talking to 1 person vs record yourself/your face talking to a crowd and you will understand.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 1 2014 10:01 utc | 170

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 1, 2014 6:01:43 AM | 169

Above Putin immovable face interview was one person (though admittedly unfriendly one person). I am not into this reading body language thing for conclusions about people because Western politicians (and sales people) learn to fake it, so conclusions from it are useless. I find it interesting that Putin seems to be working on the effect he has on Western audiences used to smooth politicians.
The Medvediev interview is interesting as it - very openly - discusses the role of the media.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 1 2014 10:35 utc | 171

somebody

And what did I just say? Compare yourself when you talking to 1 person vs a crowd. You see the difference?

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 1 2014 10:41 utc | 172

The usual procedure is to
first decide on the guilty party,
and then find the evidence

(Shoot first, ask questions later, as in Iraq/Libya wars, not to mention Iran&c)

I am sure that US has evidence regarding MH17 incident (lots of it)

After all the NSA and others collect all known humann communications on the planet.
The problem is that whatever information they do have can only be released
at a politically advantageous time (such as right before an election, for example)

They should have tried working at a circus, because doing so would provide
excellent training, but then media nowadays is like a circus anyway.


Posted by: chris m | Aug 1 2014 12:21 utc | 173

"...Unlike Washington, Putin is willing to share the evidence that Russia has about who is doing what in Ukraine. It is a simple matter to establish that Washington organized a coup that overthrew an elected government, supports violence against those who object to the coup, and has turned a deaf ear to Russia’s repeated pleas for Kiev and the separatists to negotiate their differences.

Putin should make it clear to the world that Washington continues with provocative military steps against Russia, with force buildups on Russia’s borders and calls for more buildups, with S.2277 which reads like a US preparation for war, with provocative actions and accusations by top US generals and government officials against Russia, and with efforts to isolate Russia..."

https://whitewraithe.wordpress.com/tag/s-2277-bill/

This senate bill written in May of this year reass like the "Agression Against Russia" bill. I read it Russian, American and world citizens should be really concerned...

Posted by: really | Aug 1 2014 13:49 utc | 174

Russia losing patience ...

Instead of presenting hastily doctored evidence to the international community, the SBU could do with better control over all the mercenary units in the areas around Donetsk and Lugansk organized by Kolomoisky, Lyashko, Yarosh and others, who shell Ukrainian territory without any control from those in charge of the anti-terrorist operation.

***

In conclusion, based on the data provided by the Russian space surveillance, one may deduce that Ukraine does not own the disclosed information.

However, its quality, as well as the SBU’s arguments allegedly proving Russia’s involvement, are absolutely implausible.

Apparently, the reason why the true owners of these images have not put their names to these publications is to make sure the myth of their mighty space intelligence keeps going.

In the meantime Germany has noticed that it is sanctioning itself.

Translation of the headline: Russian sanctions will cost us a lot.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 1 2014 19:50 utc | 175

The junta is summarily executing deserters and advertising this.

I can't link to the Web site because the blog won't let me. The relevant post will show up on the English version of the Colonel Cassad blog in a day or two.

Posted by: Demian | Aug 1 2014 21:30 utc | 176

@166 somebody... i thought the analogy of 2 hunters shooting at a bush was a very good one for a few reasons.. assigning blame quickly is a habit of many politicians, leaders and the media especially.. mh17 is a case in point... without more info, i think it is foolish to do so.. there may be more then 1 actor at work in this too - there usually is.. at the same time i conclude usa/nato/kiev are responsible as they are not providing information to back up their accusations. until they do, i think it points to them! it was a similar deal with 9-11..

here is Pepe Escobar's latest "Western plutocracy goes bear hunting."

Posted by: james | Aug 1 2014 21:42 utc | 177

@james #177:

i conclude usa/nato/kiev are responsible as they are not providing information to back up their accusations.

We really are living in an Orwellian world now. Remember the continual, daily reports about about the search for the black boxes from the previous Malaysian Air plane that crashed. The black boxes for MH17 were found without any problems, yet there is now complete silence about them. The same goes for Uke ATC recordings. We don't even know whether the Uke secret police has given them to the "international investigators".

It may well be that the US/NATO are at a loss as to what to do. They've had enough time to doctor both the ATC tapes and the flight recorder records to match each other. It looks like they are afraid to release anything, lest their fabrications be exposed by the Russians.

Why the Americans thought the Yukes wouldn't botch this black flag op like they botch everything else (other slaughtering unarmed people who are on the ground) is beyond me.

Posted by: Demian | Aug 1 2014 22:57 utc | 178

Either the rebels in eastern Ukraine downed the plane by accident, or the coup Government (or a faction of it) downed the plane on purpose to blame it on the rebels (for obvious huge benefits which they are already starting to receive just based on the suspicion it was the rebels with Russia's lesser or greater assistance).

SO - IF Kiev downed MH17, they would plan for it - to blame the rebels, they would have to do their homework. Now, what did they have at their disposal, and how best to frame the rebels ? Russians are not the only ones who can analyze this mystery looking at known facts. I watched their press conference closely - they saw a military aircraft in the area of the shootdown once it climbed above 5000 meters - their civilian, ATC radars could not see below 5000 meters in the area of the MH17 crash at that distance from the Russian border (where the radars were). We know the Kiev regime lies - who cares if they said they shot no anti-aircraft missiles that afternoon ? What did they HAVE if they were going to do a covert op to frame the rebels ? I read CSMonitor cite IHS Jane's World Air Force data saying Ukraine has a fleet of aircraft with 45 Su-27's (26 Su-25's, but I'm more interested in the Su-27). A single Su-27 could fly quickly over rebel "held" territory at a few hundred feet height, at 870 mph, and fire one or two R-27 EA (or R) missiles at MH17, which they would know position and speed of at any time, given access to Kiev ATC routing information. The R-27 air-to-air missile is very similar to a Buk SA-11 missile - same radar homing, 39kg of explosive (SA-11 has 70 kg), radar-proximity fuse, blast/fragmentation warhead.

The Su-27 is basically a SAM launcher that Kiev can quickly place anywhere slightly above "rebel held territory" - it can fly at 1400 km/h at sea level - so in 3 minutes it could jet out 70 km over "rebel held territory" before anyone with MANPADS could react, shoot one or two AAMs that will leave identical damage on a Boeing 777 to the SAM they accused the rebels of using, then jet back to "government controlled territory" in 3 minutes. BAM. Done. And US infrared satellites would detect a "SAM launch over rebel held territory", which would really be an AAM launched from 100 feet up. Bonus - secret services love stuff like that.

The whole 6 minute mission (and the Su-27 is a single pilot - less chance of leak) would leave just a few random eyewitnesses to "military aircraft in the sky before we heard the booms" (which BBC Russia interviewed, it's on YouTube), and maybe an Su-25 spotter plane to make sure the kill went down in rebel territory as planned - which would trigger the release of rebel Buk "evidence". The Russian ATC radar would never see the low flying Su-27. Most people in the Kiev regime wouldn't even know about the mission. And if the rebels had captured an old Buk (without the radar truck, without launch codes) and Kiev secret service had some "social media" ready to go on July 16 (whoops, they released "evidence" that was time stamped too early), so much the better for the frame up and gullible Public.

Would one or two AAMs (air-to-air missiles) launched from the Su-27 at 100 feet look different than an SA-11 surface-to-air missile launch on US satellite data ? Who knows, they'll never release it. Will investigators find fragments of an R-27 missile (or two?) at the wreckage site that could be distinguished from SA-11 fragments ? Who knows, Kiev is doing their best to keep the wreckage site cut off by attacking the rebels - and if they capture the site, would pick it clean. Would the Cockpit Voice Recorder reveal that MH17 crew noticed Ukrainian military jets flying about before they were killed ? Who knows, will that data ever see the light of day ?

Posted by: Wolfgang | Aug 2 2014 0:17 utc | 179

Russian Spring

Donetsk. 08/01/2014-22:53

Strelkov:

We have a tragedy here. Today we exchanged two “paratroopers” for two our prisoners. “Airmobiles” (“paratroopers”) went to theirs on own feet. Ours were tosses out like cargo: all bones were fractured, all entrails beaten-up; the likelihood they will live probably zero...

The animals! Such the animals! And this was not the National Guard; this was “Dnepropetrovsk paratroopers”. Very well, taking a note. I issued a command take no prisoners from officers of 25st. NEVER. /BLOCKQUOTE>

Posted by: Fete | Aug 2 2014 5:22 utc | 180

unlike syria, we can see the people of ukraine begin opposing their regime, and its new conscriptions for war: Take this Rada...its not the will of the ukraineian people..its the will of the party in power = dictatorship, a dictatorship the US and EU regimes have no qualms supporting

'A rising wave of antiwar and anti-conscription protest is taking place in cities and towns across western Ukraine. The protests are prompted by the announcement of Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko ten days ago that a "third" military mobilization is now required for the war that his governing regime began waging against the population of eastern Ukraine three months ago. Kyiv calls the war an "anti-terrorist operation."

The protests are paralleled by a rise in Ukraine army desertions and refusals of men and women to heed conscription orders.

Poroshenko's mobilization proposal was approved by the Ukraine Rada on July 22. The measure means that more people will be conscripted into military service and that more reserve army units will be thrown into the battle theatre.'
http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/25322-antiwar-protests-spreading-in-ukraine-as-government-wages-all-out-war-in-the-southeast-and-nato-threatens-russia

Posted by: brian | Aug 2 2014 9:35 utc | 181

Funny that Russia has just blocked a number of websites announcing "march for Siberia federalisation"... https://antizapret.info/site.php?id=5271

Posted by: misty6 | Aug 2 2014 10:40 utc | 182

@misty6 #182:

Obvious troll is obvious.

Russia is the biggest country in the world. Ukraine is not a country, and does not exist.

Get over it.

Posted by: Demian | Aug 2 2014 11:07 utc | 183

182

Russia is already federalized inclduing the landmass called Siberia, did your propaganda link perhaps mean independence?

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 2 2014 11:45 utc | 184

@179 wolfgang. if the intent was to create a bad impression of russia without backing it up with any substance by downing an international passenger aircraft leaving 298 dead - it was a very malevolent approach to creating more war and pain on yet more innocent people.. that is what it looks like to me, regardless of who is responsible.. and, i think anyone who looks at this closely can't help concluding that the usa/kiev are withholding information as it points back to their side..

@181 brian. thanks for that overview. that is encouraging if so..

Posted by: james | Aug 2 2014 16:00 utc | 185

@185

Any Government that doesn't mind killing 1000's of their "own people" would think even less about killing 298 foreigners if it helped them achieve their strategic goals, especially if they thought they could pin the blame on their hated enemies.

Anyone who knows anything about "covert ops" knows they rationalize away who gets hurt - the only question is, what scenario of a Kiev faction downing MH17 is consistent with all the evidence? The Kiev regime is actively trying to keep international investigators from the crash site, and also trying to capture the crash site, so I'm guessing they realize some damning evidence is there - most likely the missile fragments or explosive residue on some wreckage parts. The longer the initial (after only SIX MINUTES !) Ukraine supplied story of rebels shooting it down with a Buk is repeated as fact in the Western mediasphere, the more it will become the "accepted" version of what happened.

The black boxes were sent to U.S. Poodle UK for whitewashing (but any modern country can download/analyze the data, including France and Taiwan and Netherlands and Malaysia), but the anti-Kiev fighters had them for four days - the West is worried they were smuggled into Russia for reading the data, so if they release doctored data, they will be caught red handed. Media propaganda like the Cartoon News Network (CNN) and British Brainwashing Corporation (BBC) can only manufacture consent given the right circumstances - this new Internet Era where everybody can easily check counter-claims is making them worried...

Posted by: Wolfgang | Aug 2 2014 19:18 utc | 186

you all are the bunch of idiots who think that they know everything just because of some official lies (JFK assassination, Iraqi nukes etc).

" The Kiev government... is deploying western taxpayer money to wage a vicious war on several million Russian-speaking citizens in the Donbas... Indeed, the Donbas and Russia have been Saimese twins economically and politically not merely for decades, but centuries.

... Kiev’s marauding army and militias would come to an instant halt without access to the $35 billion of promised aid from the IMF, EU and US treasury.'

Whoever was the idiot who wrote that, he or she can't be furthest from reality. I am the resident of Donbass and it is the Russian terrorists who destroy this region and kill innocent people to spread disastrous tendencies across Ukraine to show the world that it is very wrong thing to overthrow the dictatorship because your overlord the Great Kim Chen Put thinks it is a very ominous example for him. As to the Malaysian jet speculations_ the half of the whole population of Snyezhnoye, occupied by the Russian terrorists? saw the launch of the Бук SAM and one minute later the jet crashed, the terrorists immediately released exalted reports to the Russia Today claiming that they shot down the Ukrainian AN, but as soon as they learned the truth they erased all the traces of the tv-program later so unfortunately for them aired previously. To your knowledge, Su-25-s CAN fly at the height of 10 km, but surely can't operate, because they are designed to hit GROUND targets. So, think about that (if you can, of course) you conspiracy theoretics.

Posted by: vigilante | Aug 4 2014 21:02 utc | 187

Some moron named Wolfgang wrote:"The Kiev regime is actively trying to keep international investigators from the crash site, and also trying to capture the crash site, ..."
To your limited knowledge, the actual cite is controlled by the Russian terrorists, who indeed are making hindrances for everyone who tries to get to the crash area, they eliminated parts of Boeing and bodies with fragments of warhead, indicating of the "Бук" SAM, also they threatened anyone who tried to overstep the indicated zone because that might help find some evidences: also they looted the bodies and the luggage, their leader Kozytsyn (Козицын, the Russian Cossack chief) called the victims 'the western spies', and in this lies all the ideological underline of the whole story; you are a bunch of WESTERN degenerats (judging by your knowledge of the theme: in the epoch of internet you clearly know NOTHING), and the present Russian doctrine is about the Western adversary world (that includes you) that tries to kill "the Holy and Spirited (ha-ha) Mother Russia". Think again, if you can.

Posted by: vigilante | Aug 4 2014 21:16 utc | 188

"...The black boxes were sent to U.S. Poodle UK for whitewashing(but any modern country can download/analyze the data including France and Taiwan and Netherlands and Malaysia), but the anti-Kiev fighters had them for four days - the West is worried they were smuggled into Russia for reading the data, so if they release doctored data, they will be caught red handed Media propaganda like the Cartoon News Network (CNN) and British Brainwashing Corporation (BBC) can only manufacture consent given the right circumstances - this new Internet Era where everybody can easily check counter-claims is making them worried.. "
Posted by: Wolfgang | Aug 2, 2014 3:18:44 PM | 186

I agree with your sentiments wolfgang. Just look at what your post dragged in...

Posted by: really | Aug 4 2014 22:11 utc | 189

Courtesy of Club Orlov, here is a detailed analysis of the downing of MH17, including an explanation of how Buk systems work.

The analyst considers where the missile could have been shot from – considering where the plane went down –, that it did not ignite before impact, and observed damage to the cockpit. He concludes that the Ukes shot the plain down with a Buk, not with cannon fire by a fighter jet. He argues that shrapnel from a Buk could have produced the kind of damage that we have seen in a picture of the cockpit.

And he makes a point that the Western media have totally missed, that Buk is a sysstem, with a separate command unit, primary radar unit, and the actual launchen, which has its own radar (which is less powerful than that of the primary radar unit), whereas nobody has even suggested that the rebels had anything more than one launcher unit. So the story that the rebels could have shot MH17 down was an obvious fairy tail from the start (even setting aside the obviously forged evidence the Ukes instantly produced after the plane went down).

Posted by: Demian | Aug 6 2014 23:54 utc | 190

Apparently US satellites can see the girls that were kidnapped by boko haram...but we have yet to see any satellite imagery of the alleged rebel buk launch or alleged weapons transfers from russia to rebels. Believe me if the US had any it would be playing on the "news" more than old seinfeld episodes on syndicated tv.

Posted by: really | Aug 7 2014 0:11 utc | 191

@really #191:

Recent Western media stories on MH17 don't even mention anymore that the rebels are suspected of downing the plane.

I'm pretty sure that even if some Western journalists and/or politicians thought that the rebels were responsible, it's obvious to everyone by now that this was a false flag op that failed. Holland just announced that the release of information from flight recorders will be delayed, without giving any reason. That will allow this tragedy to further leave most people's minds.

The report that finally gets released will probably say that MH17 was probably shot down by a Buk by "unknown parties". The US, given its intelligence capabilities that you mention, will adopt a very low profile in any announcements.

If the Dutch had any concern for their lost loved ones, they would start a movement to get at the truth, like the New Jersey wives of 9/11 victims did. But the Dutch have been too conditioned into passivity.

Posted by: Demian | Aug 7 2014 0:27 utc | 192

@192

Yup. I remember on the day mh17 was shot down the entire msm was screeching the same talking points. I said to myself their stories are bogus because there was not even an investigation conducted, yet the msm and its "experts" just knew the rebels did it and putin gave them the means. Failed false flag indeed.

Posted by: really | Aug 7 2014 0:38 utc | 193

Finally some human rights organizations are starting to speak out against what is happening in Kiev.

Abductions, lawlessness: Amnesty International slams pro-Kiev ‘vigilantes’ — RT News

Amnesty International has called for an investigation into the abuse of power by pro-Kiev “vigilantes,” including Ukrainian ultra-radical MP Oleg Lyashko. The organization described instances of abductions and physical abuse of victims.

Posted by: Fran | Aug 7 2014 6:19 utc | 194

This was posted yesterday in one of the biggest Malaysian Newspapers:

US analysts conclude MH17 downed by aircraft | New Straits Times

KUALA LUMPUR: INTELLIGENCE analysts in the United States had already concluded that Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was shot down by an air-to-air missile, and that the Ukrainian government had had something to do with it.

This corroborates an emerging theory postulated by local investigators that the Boeing 777-200 was crippled by an air-to-air missile and finished off with cannon fire from a fighter that had been shadowing it as it plummeted to earth.

In a damning report dated Aug 3, headlined “Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts”, Associated Press reporter Robert Parry said “some US intelligence sources had concluded that the rebels and Russia were likely not at fault and that it appears Ukrainian government forces were to blame”.

This new revelation was posted on GlobalResearch, an independent research and media organisation.

In a statement released by the Ukrainian embassy on Tuesday, Kiev denied that its fighters were airborne during the time MH17 was shot down. This follows a statement released by the Russian Defence Ministry that its air traffic control had detected Ukrainian Air Force activity in the area on the same day.

Posted by: Fran | Aug 7 2014 9:11 utc | 195

"...rebels shot down a Ukrainian MiG-29 near the town of Yenakievo on Thursday evening, Ukrainian military spokesman Vladislav Seleznyov said Initial information indicates that a missile from a Russian-made surface-to-air antiaircraft system, called Buk or SA-11 shot the plane, Seleznyov said. Information about the fate of the pilot wasn't immediately available.

That's the same type of missile system that U.S. and Ukrainian officials have alleged downed Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in eastern Ukraine last month, killing all 298 people on board U.S. officials have concluded the missile was fired from rebel-held territory...."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/07/world/europe/russia-ukraine-crisis/index.html

Kiev and its puppetmasters are persistent with their fables. Don't worry about the pilots, I saw on the kyiv-post that they ejected safely as usual. I saw on cnn a military expert saying that now that they shot two planes down with the buk, there is a greater possibility that the rebels received more russian training than we thought. Oh gawd...

Posted by: really | Aug 8 2014 0:47 utc | 196

"...The stolen data allegedly was sent to a computer in China, according to an unnamed source cited by the  Star. The officials who were targeted reportedly were from the country’s Department of Civil Aviation, the National Security Council, and Malaysia Airlines. The country’s cyber security agency recognized the breach hours later when it then blocked all transmissions and shut down the compromised machines..."

http://qz.com/252539/chinese-hackers-targeted-mh-370-investigation-and-appear-to-have-stolen-classified-documents/

So with all the coverage of mh370 we are just finding out about this data breach 5+ months later. Dry run for mh17???

Posted by: really | Aug 21 2014 1:57 utc | 197

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