Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 29, 2014

Ukraine: Pentagon Sees Ballistic Missile Launches - Why Then No MH17 Data?

Pentagon officials tell CNN (video) that the Ukrainian government fired three ballistic missiles towards the federalists during the last 48 hours. Such missiles have ranges from 50 miles up to some 600 miles and carry warheads with some 1,000 pounds or more of explosives.

This is a huge qualitative escalation of the conflict. It shows that the Ukrainian military is in real trouble as it now has resorts increasingly to very indiscriminate, imprecise and large weapons.

But there is one even more important issues that CNN will certainly not mention.

The U.S., like Russia, has satellites that watch for bigger missile launches. Some of these satellites are in a geostationary orbit. They permanently observe one area. Other are in a Low Earth Orbit (LEO) and give a more detailed picture, but as they circulate the earth, for only the time of the overflight. That the Pentagon watched three ballistic missile launches lets me believe that a geostationary satellite with permanent observation was used in this case.

But if there is a U.S. geostationary infrared satellite watching Ukraine all the time it must also have observed the alleged launch of a BUK-1 anti-air missile against the flight MH17. Air-defense missiles release a lot of energy at launch and would be seen as significant, very fast growing white blob on an infrared picture.

The U.S. therefore obviously knows if, when and exactly from where a BUK-1 missile was launched against MH17. That the U.S. detected the ballistic missile launches makes this conclusion inevitable.

Why then is the U.S. not releasing the data of the BUK-1 launch against MH17?

Posted by b on July 29, 2014 at 15:54 UTC | Permalink

next page »

Why would they release anything that will go against them. we all know how the CIA operates.

Posted by: Shoes | Jul 29 2014 16:04 utc | 1

Upload backups of video now!

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jul 29 2014 16:11 utc | 2

FWIW, release of proof of Putin's support of the rebels, not to mention the alleged missile strikes from Russia on the Ukraine would also be appreciated (not blurry twitter photos, please). Shades of Saddam and the weapons inspectors, lack of proof/evidence apparently not needed as the "level III sanctions" are drafted, apparently on the basis of his support for the rebels and/or failure to make them surrender or something -- all in the face of Putin's denial of such aid/support/influence, public statements in favor of a ceasefire, and the rebels' complaints of Putin's failures wrt support. What I want to know, sir, is when did you stop beating your wife? (all "ironic" complaints as we pour resources into Kiev and tsk-tsk disapprovingly about Russian military troop movements inside Russian territory, as if these actions were "telling" and provocative).
I'm absolutely disgusted and disheartened.

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 29 2014 16:26 utc | 3

Is someone in the Pentagon pushing back in the hope that someone will ask the right questions of the White House/State Department?

Posted by: blowback | Jul 29 2014 16:30 utc | 4

BECAUSE NO SUCH EVIDENCE EXISTS!! MH17 was shot down by a Ukie Su25 interceptor, on to the next provocations ..gutter "journalism" from the majors is the order of the day.

Posted by: Marc | Jul 29 2014 16:49 utc | 5

I'm curious to see if data starts to leak from high levels in the DOD via "anomynous sources" to people like Bob Woodward and Seymour Hersh in the coming months. Especially if deep state leadership reaches the group consensus that the near-daily escalations with Russia could lead to open conflict.

There's enough sane leadership in the deep state to realize an armed conflict with Russia will only be "won" by the nations who stay out of the conflict.

The west is a giant with feet of clay, the first time it gets into conflict with a near peer we're going to see those feet shatter.

Posted by: thepanzer | Jul 29 2014 16:49 utc | 6

It's purely a personal opinion, however, it is becoming patently obvious from news reports here in Oz, that the LAST thing the Ukraine coup govt (and its Yankee friends) want is for the crash site and wreckage of MH 17 to be carefully inspected by qualified air-crash investigators.

Imo, it is also highly significant that Boeing hasn't sent a team of its own technical staff to Ukraine to assist in assessing the wreckage. Boeing ALWAYS send staff to assess EVERY mishap involving damage to one of its own planes - no matter how minor the mishap.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 29 2014 17:06 utc | 7

thanks b.. your quote "Why then is the U.S. not releasing the data of the BUK-1 launch against MH17?"

aside from the obvious answer provided @1, or the less obvious answer @5, we are still left knowing that someone knows what happened but they are not sharing that info.. we also know that a lot of effort has been made off the tragedy of mh17 to make it stick on russia/putin.. it isn't sticking and this leads one to suspect the one's pointing the finger at russia are the ones responsible.. no easy answer, but as @1 says - if they were involved in the mh17 take down, it doesn't serve their interests to share this.. same deal 9-11..

Posted by: james | Jul 29 2014 17:10 utc | 8

They certainly appear to be trying to maintain an obfuscating shit-storm until something cracks or ???.
Yesterday's "scare headline about violations of the nuclear pact is all about tests that have apparently been ongoing since, irrc, 2008 (Democracy Now). So, now, Russia allegedly may opt out of ... oh wait, that headline has disappeared ...
Yes, we're all being "played" and, regardless of which "side" we're on, our anxiety level is being deliberately ratcheted up (all too often ending in cries for someone just make it stop and/or kill the beast). All the WWI commemorative coverage certainly makes it feel as if "mankind" in general, or at least "Western Civilization" in particular had devolved a great deal in the last century. Imaging proposing a "league of nations" these days.

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 29 2014 17:24 utc | 9

I'm with james. I think the roll out of EU sanctions and Yukos decision and allegations of INF treaty violations (which were reported back in January) is meant to obscure the fact that things are not going the junta's way. The Human Rights Watch report last week accusing Kiev of war crimes, the collapse of the U.S. "smoking gun" proof that the Novorossiyan militia blasted MH17 out of the sky with a Buk supplied by Russia -- all this had to be drowned out.

What I think is noteworthy is how the junta military offensive is being trumpeted as a great success. More Goebbels-like propaganda.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Jul 29 2014 17:30 utc | 10

From the Russian press briefing July 21:

"According to the statement of the US representatives, they have some pictures from space supporting that the militants launched the missile. But nobody has seen these pictures.

According to our records from 17:06 till 17:21 Moscow time on the July 17 over the Southeastern territory of Ukraine, a US space satellite flew overhead. This is a special device of the experimental space system designed to detect and track various missile launches. If the US party has photos made by the satellite, please let us ask them to show them to world community for further investigation."

It is very notable that no one from the Western media has even brought this up, let alone questioned any official about it. They dutifully report the social media clips and blurry satellite imagery obtained from a private firm and continue the 2 minutes of Hate directed against Russia. Wagging the dog.

The Americans have the evidence and will not show it. Someone somewhere also knows full well what happened to the other Malaysian airliner too.

Posted by: jayc | Jul 29 2014 17:48 utc | 11

I suspect the USKraine regime is attempting to destroy or hide evidence relating to the downing of MH17. Fortunately, Jeroen Akkermans has uploaded lots of imagery of the in-situ debris. One crucial image shows an area of fuselage just below the left window of the cockpit. This shows both scorching and a peppering of small holes suggestive of shrapnel impact or less likely, cannon fire.

Posted by: Yonatan | Jul 29 2014 17:51 utc | 12

Dear Susan,

"Yes, we're all being "played" and, regardless of which "side" we're on, our anxiety level is being deliberately ratcheted up (all too often ending in cries for someone just make it stop and/or kill the beast)."

Thanks for your wise words. I have been having sinking feelings in my stomach as to where this is all going. I have just have to keep reminding myself is that lies are all they have got.

Posted by: Yonatan | Jul 29 2014 17:56 utc | 13

EU agree to sanction Russia
This is some iran type of sanctions, EU really wants war.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 29 2014 18:04 utc | 14

Posted by: Yonatan | Jul 29, 2014 1:51:12 PM | 12

Yep. the holes seem to be cut from both inside and outside of the cockpit.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 29, 2014 2:04:13 PM | 14

wait and see.

Der Spiegel has suddenly stopped to be propaganda media and thinks it wise to be sceptical towards US claims of Russia firing into Ukraine.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 29 2014 18:25 utc | 15

So it seems that both russia and the us have super advanced satellites staring at every inch of that place. They both know what happened, so why keep quiet and let the press speculate like the idiots they are?

First the us starts saying it has "evidence" that it was the rebels.
Russia responds with commercial, not military, radar data showing a uki military plane accelerating towards mh17.
At the same time the "ukis are hiding behind civ airliners" allegations come out.
US then "admits" that "it was probably an accident", and switches gears, accusing russia of cross-border shelling (made up).
Russia drops the issue as well.

What fits is that the rebels were shooting at a Uki plane, who hid behind MH17, which then got hit inadvertently. Makes everyone look bad, and no one wants to give away their super secret satellite capabilities, so the issue drops. Also explains the deleted rebel conversation where they thought they shot down a military plane. They most likely shot AT one, but something got in the way.

Posted by: Oren B | Jul 29 2014 18:26 utc | 16

Sometimes, I reluctantly return to the National (CBC's flagship news program) to check out its coverage of events in the Ukraine. Last night, it was reported (with some "select" commentary) that investigators are prevented from due dilligance to investigate the crash because of various checkpoints hampering their movements; and that there is considrable fighting too close to the c rash sight. Without saying directly that thes various barriers are are to be blamed on "pro-Russian" separatists (a very well-used discursive identification of the anti-Kiev forces) one is left with the impression that it is the "separatists" who are hampering the investigation.

The fact that the CBC and all the rest of MSM can focus blame for an incomplete investigation, which certainly includes a timely and thorough in=investigation on the ground, which does not appear forthcoming any time soon, means that whatever is revealed from examination of the "black boxes", satellite imagery, eye-witness accounts, or whatever, will not have have any weight whatsoever. The spin will be that causes of the downing of MH17 will never be definitively known, with thanks to `pro-Russian: forces preventing a complete investigation.

How very "convenient" that this unfortunate airliner was shot down in a war-zone - which raises many more questions never to be asked on MSM.

Posted by: bjmaclac | Jul 29 2014 18:31 utc | 17

@16 The other possibility is that Western reaction in the absence of evidence has convinced the Russians to move on from relations with the West. A crash investigator leaking the audio recordings would be more damaging than the Russians politically, and the Chinese between their surprise naval exercises and seizing Microsoft offices have already announced their opinion. Brazil tossed the Israeli ambassador. The first and fifth most populous countries have made their positions known.

Putting out evidence will be much better after more sound bytes from Western leaders, and the Dutch are getting antsy as they have called for Kiev to respect the cease fire. They didn't call out Novorussyian forces in a false equivalency.

Posted by: NotTimothyGeithner | Jul 29 2014 18:42 utc | 18

The pattern is identical as the one seen when the UN inspectors wanted to go in the area where sarin had supposedly been used. Yats quitting the next day would confirm what the Spanish air controler reported, that is that the people who shot the plane were obeyings the orders of one group in Kiev, on which the other groups in the governement have no power. They can all be ashamed and will do everything to bury it. In the meantime, Craig Roberts reports that Putin is sure we're heading for a war in Europe.

Posted by: Mina | Jul 29 2014 18:50 utc | 19

This is good, so are the comments. Every Tuesday:

Posted by: bevin | Jul 29 2014 18:54 utc | 20

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 29, 2014 2:04:13 PM | 14

The sanctions.


Forbidding European investors to profit from Russian shares.


Posted by: somebody | Jul 29 2014 18:56 utc | 21

However, it appears that -- minus a Russian supplied BUK -- the rebels did not have the hardware capacity to hit the airliner at that altitude -- The pattern of explosion might be used to indicate what sort of warhead hit the airliner, again raising questions about access and deployment.

I still run into people on line who insist that Saddam's WMD's really existed and, most recently, were secreted out of Iraq to become part of Assad's arsenal (even though as far as I can tell knowledge and covert monitoring of Assad's arsenal has been a long-standing concern). The assertion that a BUK could be "secreted" out of rebel territory is just a dust storm which helps support a scenario in which same system was also "missed" being secreted across the Russian border into the Ukraine -- black arts, magic wands, presto-chango. Putin's a wizard or Bob's Your Uncle. That's entertainment.

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 29 2014 18:57 utc | 22

Some tidbits of MH-17 news out of The Hague …

The combo Frans [Timmermans] & Mark [Rutte] got exclamation from all Dutch parliamentarians and got unanimous support for handling the MH-17 case. The Netherlands were to take the lead in the international investigation, but 14 days on, their forensic experts are holed up in a hotel in Donetsk. Both Timmermanns and Australian counterpart Julie Bishop were in Kiev to urge the Kiev Ukrainians to lend support for entry to the crash site. A new agreement was signed to allow an additional 700 armed forces to enter the Donetsk area when security of the investigators is needed.

The Dutch talk the talk but don't walk the walk. All talk but no results.

There was a special session with parliament of the security ministers forming the government on MH-17 case. Very cunny by the cabinet members to add to today's topic not just the MH-17 investigation but also the new EU sanctions on Putin and Russia. Great move, as everyone in The Netherlands wants to hit out at 'evil' Putin.

The Dutch government was irritated at Kiev that of all the agreements and talks, nothing has changed on the ground, except a worsening of the situation. The large area of the crash site is already split up in parts between ukies and the rebels. The crash site in the village of Grabove was conquered by the ukies today according to a NY Times correspondent.

At Donetsk airport, heavy fighting taking place with Ukrainian forces surrounded by anti-Kiev militants.

At Torez train station a wagon with all valuables of the passengers, collected by the rebels, and remained guarded until the ukies approached Torez. At the last moment the rebels had to flee, leaving the wagon unguarded since yesterday.

Due to the long delay for the international investigators to come into Donetsk, the rebels have lost patience with the OSCE team on the ground. They call them unreliable and working for the western powers, their enemy Kiev and the U.S. Chance is the OSCE may be denied further access to Donetsk and the Dutch and Australians will lose their intermediary with the rebels. This would complete the stalemate.

Posted by: Oui | Jul 29 2014 19:00 utc | 23

On the BBC and elsewehere, what people are seeing as main news today is "Gaza bombing intensifies" and just next to it "Eu agree on sanctions against Russia".
Some are right to call it "a mess of epic proportions"

Posted by: Mina | Jul 29 2014 19:21 utc | 24

@16 oren b... my problem with your analysis is you conclude the rebels were shooting at the ukee jet and it missed.. do we know the rebels have access to devices able to shoot that high in the air? we know the ukees do.. actually i think your supposition is wrong for this reason.. if the usa had something concrete pointing to the rebels firing something sophisticated enough to reach that height - we would have been given the data already.. we haven't.. the one side that has been constantly pointing a finger in one direction would not sit on it's knowledge my friend.. i think you are being duped..

Posted by: james | Jul 29 2014 20:05 utc | 25

The Russian government lost the moment it believed the empty promises of a few EU countries. They really believed these countries have an independent international policy when they are just fully under control of the US/western empire (even if it means hurting their own countries) just like most other EU protectorates.

It's a pity that they didn't learn anything from years of negotiations about the Iranian non-existant nukes. It's even worse that they don't even seem to understand what is the current international situation and in what position they are being played into (not much different from other small irrelevant 'resistance villages' in the empire frontiers, not unlike Iran or North Korea). They have become just pure talk while hundreds are getting killed just a few kilometers from their frontier.

Posted by: ThePaper | Jul 29 2014 20:05 utc | 26

Maybe things are finally shifting a little:

Obama Should Release Ukraine Evidence | Consortiumnews

With the July 17 shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over Ukraine turning a local civil war into a U.S. confrontation with Russia, former U.S. intelligence veterans urge President Obama to release what evidence he has about the tragedy and silence the hyperbole.

Posted by: Fran | Jul 29 2014 20:20 utc | 27

Great info on how the BUK system actually works on Niqnaq the other night -

can anyone confirm ...

Paveway comments it is unlikely the rebels did the shooting since the Ukrainians very likely disabled the BUK launchers before they were captured back in June. He also claims it would be insane to fire a SAM without knowing exactly what you're targeting. And there's this -

An odd thing about Ukraine is that the Armed Forces control about half the SAM units, and the Interior Ministry controls the other half. That’s just odd – in that old Soviet organization way. Then you have ‘militias’ that have ties to the Ukrainian Interior Ministry that operate outside the purview of the military and *they* supposedly have BUKs with trained crews as well.


Posted by: Anon | Jul 29 2014 21:07 utc | 28

James Petras:

Posted by: bevin | Jul 29 2014 21:33 utc | 29

@Fran #27:

That group of former CIA officers always takes a reasonable line, so that letter does not indicate any kind of shift. The letter concludes, "The courtesy of a reply is requested." But Obama will not reply, because he is a thug, and thugs do not behave courteously.

If Obama did reply, that would represent a shift.

The letter also says:

It seems that whenever Kerry does cite supposed “evidence” that can be checked – like the forged anti-Semitic fliers distributed in eastern Ukraine or the photos of alleged Russian special forces soldiers who allegedly slipped into Ukraine – the “proof” goes “poof” as Kerry once said in a different context.

So long as Kerry remains as Secretary of State, the USG appears as nothing but a bunch of thugs to any informed observer.

I'm pretty sure that these ex-CIA officers speak for most people currently working for the CIA. The CIA still has professionals working for it, who must be utterly disgusted by the Obama administration. The days when the State Department hired professionals are long gone.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 29 2014 21:40 utc | 30

In my opinion, the BRICS deal -more than the airplane - has generated the stepped up hysteria of the past few weeks.

There continues to be a small but steady drumbeat of comments admonishing the Russians for "weakness", for not responding in Ukraine in a more overt military manner. If Russia had done so at anytime before the signing of BRICS, there would have been tremendous international pressure aimed at India and China, in particular, to step away from the pact and that pressure may well have succeeded. As it stands, it looks like Russia is preparing to hunker down and withstand the shit storm of accusation and sanctions, with the backing of its BRICS partners (who have notably not joined the hysteria).

I, for one, appreciate Russia's repeated referrals to international law, institutions, and partnerships and recognize, counter-intuitively as it may seem living in the West, that Putin has constantly attempted to mediate ceasefires and negotiation. The West's hypocritical senselessness is increasingly damaging its own position. While I don't see a full war breaking out, it is disturbing to note that the West's political representatives are a thoroughly mediocre bunch - perhaps the worst collection since the ones who blundered their way into WW1.

Posted by: jayc | Jul 29 2014 21:44 utc | 31

@bevin #20:

Orlov has produced the only plausible argument that the downing of MH17 was not a Ukie false flag op that I have seen:

in the case of flight MH17, the false flag theory rests on an untenable assumption: that the Ukrainians, if tasked with shooting it down, would in fact succeed in shooting it down. All previous evidence illustrates that when Ukrainians want to shoot down a plane, they may succeed in shooting down a nursery school, a maternity ward, an apartment building full of elderly Ukrainians, but never a plane. Conversely, if Ukrainians set out to destroy a maternity ward or a kindergarten (as they are known to sometimes do) odds are that they will hit a Boeing. They inherited a now rather obsolete Buk M1 air defense system from the USSR, which, in skilled hands, is quite capable of shooting down a Boeing flying at cruising altitude, but you'd be wrong to think that they have figured out how it works. They held exactly one training exercise using this system, in 2001, and succeeded in... shooting down a Russian civilian airliner! There were no training exercises in using this system until... it was used to shoot down MH17! It was used in Georgia during the war of 2008 over South Ossetia, where it did shoot down four Russian military aircraft, but there it was commanded by American mercenaries of Polish descent. Ukrainians excell at robbing, selling out, dismantling and destroying their own country; but achieving a specific, precise result as part of a highly coordinated mission? Not so much.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 29 2014 22:10 utc | 32

Whether the Ukies shot down MH17 or not is almost incidental since the incident has achieved its strategic objective which is to further isolate Moscow from Europe.

Just think of it?..Somehow the US has talked Merkel, Hollande and the rest into levying sanctions against Russia with absolutely zero proof of their guilt.
How,d they manage that?

Obviously, all these leaders know the US has satellite evidence of what really happened. But do they ask to see it before they vote for sanctions?
Hell no.

But why?
What sort of power does the US have on these foreign leaders?
Are they all being blackmailed? Are they all in the grip of the bank cartel?
What is it?

Posted by: Plantman | Jul 29 2014 22:45 utc | 33

if it did happen, US would nmake the news viral: ergo it didnt happen

Posted by: brian | Jul 29 2014 23:06 utc | 34

'Forbidding European investors to profit from Russian shares.


Posted by: somebody | Jul 29, 2014 2:56:41 PM | 21

doesnt that sound like a dictatorship?

Posted by: brian | Jul 29 2014 23:07 utc | 35

@ plantman @ 33

The US and the EU, those in power are in the same boat - their system of extortion. The western banking system (central banks /petro dollar exchange system) neocolonialism (deindustrialization financialization, concentrating "labor markets in third world , resource extraction) short the fortunes and power of the in - power ruling elite are all tied up together and they are all in ball deep. What is it ? It called imperialism. Capitalism has to go. Its GOING to go..will it take the world out with it on the way down?

Posted by: Marc | Jul 29 2014 23:07 utc | 36

Posted by: james | Jul 29, 2014 1:10:15 PM | 8

dont make heavy weather of a slam dunk

Posted by: brian | Jul 29 2014 23:10 utc | 37

Notice how Ukraine fires ballistic missiles but everyone else fires "scuds." I wonder why that is.

Posted by: Lysander | Jul 29 2014 23:16 utc | 38


ZioNazi Ukraine Army trapped in East, collapse imminent...

Initiate Operation Iron Hot Chocolate Fudge Sundae!!

Upload fake YouTube videos showing Resistance cheering.

Small flechette bmob-timer placed in cockpit in layover in Netherlands, Mossad's branch office. Easy access to any airplane by catering crew. Jacob Rothschilds majority owner of Malaysia Air and also insurance company paying his claims, he's oligarch pals with dual-citizen Israeli Chocolate Emperor and his D-CI poodle Prime Minister Yats, (every emperor needs a poodle).

Two Ukraine jets trail MH17 until flechette bmob-timer explodes, killing flight crew (copious blood splattered all over inside of cockpit reported). MH17 makes sharp left turn as pilot (left seat) slammed to left by in-cockpit flechette bmob-timer. Ukraine planes peel away, reporting hit. (where are the autopsies of the flight crew?!)

Ukrainian BUK launched as Anti-Russia provocation to pull NATO into Ukraine conflict. Doesn't matter if BUK intercepts or not, at this point it's political propaganda.

Third Ukraine jet roars up from below to deliver coup-de-grace A2A misisle attack before now disabled doomed flight drifts NE into Russia, out of Ukraine's control.

QED, just like MH370, which left Jacob Rothschilds the sole remaining patent holder for a hugely important military technology breakthru.

[OK, the Rothschilds Nexus remains speculation, but the cockpit takedowns are QED]

Bonus award, mostly Dutch passengers, wild Anti-Russian demonstrations, International Court in Hague, Netherlands, awards dual-citizen Israeli businessman $50B, payable by Russia.

Double bonus, EU joins US in heavy sanctions against Russian government.

All it took was a tiny flechette bmob-timer hidden in a catering cart, plus MSM psyop.

Civilization is not going to survive.

Posted by: ChipNikh | Jul 29 2014 23:17 utc | 39

What sort of power does the US have on these foreign leaders?
Are they all being blackmailed? Are they all in the grip of the bank cartel?
What is it?

Posted by: Plantman | Jul 29, 2014 6:45:34 PM | 33

The Pedophocracy

by David McGowan . . .

The Pedophocracy, Part I: From Brussels ...
The Pedophocracy, Part II: ... to Washington
The Pedophocracy, Part III: Uncle Sam Wants Your Children
The Pedophocracy, Part IV: McMolestation
The Pedophocracy, Part V: It Couldn't Happen Here
The Pedophocracy, Part VI: Finders Keepers

Posted by: Priceless | Jul 29 2014 23:17 utc | 40

its amaing what Twitter tolerates

tweeting the Kremlin is this fellow:

Putin MUST DIE ‏@gpol03 ·Jul 27
@KremlinRussia_E Hows your daughter Maria Vladimir? She may return to you piece by piece one day. #DIE_YOU_RED_CUNT

and daring to venture into the den, you can fnid this bit of illumination:

@DeathToPutin ·


Posted by: brian | Jul 29 2014 23:51 utc | 41

Brian @ 41

Substitute Nettanyahu for Putin and Bibi's son Yair for Putin's daughter Maria and suddenly we would see Twitter isn't so tolerant.

Posted by: Prey4 Justice | Jul 29 2014 23:58 utc | 42

@Plantman #33:

My impression, FWIW, is that the Europeans are just humoring the USG. It is obvious by now to everyone who is not a zombie that the US is acting increasingly desperately and erratically, like a ship commanded by a drunkard captain going down.

The Europeans do what they do in the hope that the US will go down quietly, without taking the whole world down with them. (somebody expressed a similar thought yesterday.)

Posted by: Demian | Jul 30 2014 0:32 utc | 43

I'm disappointed to see that Germany and Japan have aligned themselves in favor of these senseless trade sanctions against Russia. These countries are sovereign governments and sovereign peoples which are responsible for their own thinking and their own actions. The governments and peoples of Germany and Japan honestly think these sanctions have a sensible and intelligent basis; they think these sanctions are righteous and wise. I see this as a big cognitive failure by them.

The Russians evaluate the basis of the West's sanctions the same way I do: First and foremost, it's a large-scale cognitive failure throughout the West (and Japan). The cognitive failure is exacerbated by an ethical failure to give enough respect to Russia's right to be different.

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jul 30 2014 0:45 utc | 44

Off Topic. Bashar Assad in his speech on 16 Jul 2014 said:

"The crisis has validated the strong social cohesion among Syrians and refuted the malicious claims about a civil war.... The term ‘civil war’ today is used as a political cover to legitimise the terrorists as one side in a Syrian–Syrian conflict rather than despicable instruments in the hands of external powers.... There cannot be a civil war or a real division, when the army is united, the institutions are united, the Syrian street is united and people are going out together to the markets and restaurants. This [a civil war] is a mere illusion."

Question for Assadists and pro-Assadists, such as MoA commenter Brian: It is politically unacceptable language to refer to the Syrian rebellion as a civil war? Or is it acceptable, Brian?

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jul 30 2014 0:57 utc | 45

@Parviziyi #44:

It is not Russians who are different, but Americans. The only way Americans can interact with other countries is by bombing, occupying, invading, or infiltrating them.

So unable are Americans to treat other countries as equals that Americans have their own two national sports that no one else is interested in (except for totally colonized societies like Japan), instead of being into the same sport as the rest of the world is. (The English got the Indians to play cricket, but the Americans never managed to make Europeans play baseball.)

Posted by: Demian | Jul 30 2014 1:15 utc | 46

@ plantman # 33: I am most disappointed in Hollande, who calls himself a socialist. Several months ago, he expressly advocated trickle down Reagonomics, he has made no calls to leave the neoliberal Economic and Monetary Union, and now he has solidly aligned with Western imperial powers against Russia (and basic human rights and decency). It's pathetic. If the French socialist party is a right-wing party (and it is), where does that leave everybody else?

Posted by: ee | Jul 30 2014 1:39 utc | 47

@47 through reading "the politics of heroin" which focuses a good portion on immediate postwar French politics, i am not longer shocked to see the so called "socialists" suck up to the empire, even if it means engaging with the CIA and French Gangsters. this is what they did in the 1940s when they helped aatack the French Resistance, the Communist Party, and the French rebellious colonies, and this is what they do now when they join the Empire in their imposition of austerity on the French working class, assault independent Libya and Syria, and support fascism in the Ukraine.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 30 2014 2:15 utc | 48

@ guest77 @ 48

True. What one needs to understand is that in France, Germany, most of Europe, the "socialist party" is equivalent to, fulfills the same role as the "democratic party" in the US. The French resistance is another one of those mythologized US/EU WW2 legends. There certainly WAS a French resistance, but it was made up mostly of Communists. Many of their leaders and contacts in Europe infiltrated INTO the country from eastern Europe, especially the Soviet Union (while the petty bourgeois Gaulists were running the other way). Most of the rest were Jews in Hiding and other persons of a radical proletarian disposition (including Arabs). The "Gallic", Gaulist, nationalist myth of the French resistance is the sad joke.

Posted by: Marc | Jul 30 2014 2:44 utc | 49

I'm not on the ground & I don't really know, but based on the evidence I have to agree with Mike Maloney #10 that "things are not going the junta's way."
--DM Heletey: "the situation in eastern Ukraine continues to worsen."
--increased sanctions (maybe - -we'll see) Anyhow sanctions don't win wars.
--wild charges against Russia for testing a guided missile (big deal).
--Kerry Says Not ‘a Shred’ of Evidence Russia Wants to Ease Ukraine Fighting ("please stop")
--Ukraine disobeying UNSC resolution
--consistent MSM stories that the junta is winning (US propaganda, never true)
--Kerry is calling for a ceasefire
--news: Ukraine’s Battle of the Donbas is not only going to last the entire summer, it could go on into the autumn or winter with mounting casualties.
--no "lethal aid" from US

This is a civil war with easy support for one side by neighboring Russia. The junta force must impress fighters; the rebels are more motivated with volunteers. The outcome will be decided on the ground, not in Washington and Brussels.

The US would not be fully occupied with this matter if it were winning.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 30 2014 3:23 utc | 50

Donetsk. 07/30/2014-02:09

Comment: A summary from Strelkov is unavailable today.

A post from A. Mozgovoy (commander of battalion “Prizrak” (“Ghost”) ):

Russian Spring

On the direction of city Pervomaisk, the units of battalions “Prizrak” and “Sever” (“North”) are squeezing opponent off city Popasnaya. The enemy is backing down and carry losses.

On other direction, Debal`tsevo-Kommisarovka, a small group from ranks of a combatant brigade destroyed “URAL” (truck) with military personal. The losses of the Ukrainians amount to a company.

There were no casualties among the combatants.

At a ceremonial meeting of the brigade, for the selflessness and valor, combatants received awards.

A post from combatant unit “Oplot”:

Russian Spring

Since July 27, the Ukrainian military attempted an offensive in cities of Shakhtersk and Torez, but to no avail. The cities as well as a sector of road in the area are under control of the Army of Donetsk People Republic. As battles continue, the opponent has lost two columns: 36 units of mechanized combat equipment of the first column were smashed, 73 – of the second. The military force of Donetsk Republic has kept its equipment intact.

Today around noon in Donetsk, the Ukrainian military fired mortar rounds and self-propelled shells at clusters of residential units in areas of Sherbakov Park, trade complex “Mayak” (“Beakon”), Shchers street.

The shelling originated from the airport site – a group of Ukrainian subversives infiltrated the site to shoot 3 self-propelled shells and about 15 mortar rounds.

A post that Ukrainian warriors of 95th airmobile brigade and Novograd-Bolinsk 30th mechanized brigade are blocked in Donetsk Republic near height Saur-Mogila (Saur-Burial)

Russian Spring

The warriors of 95th and 30th brigades found themselves in grave if not worse situation. The third day in a row, they are surrounded in settlement Stepanovka near Saur-Mogila. These Zhitomir paratroopers and their kin from Novograd-Bolinsk were due to create a corridor to allow to supply units fighting along the border in the south of Donbass. But were themselves blocked.

Posted by: Fete | Jul 30 2014 4:13 utc | 51

@Don Bacon #50:

Your reasoning seems valid to me.

As to "not being on the ground", in case you missed my previous plug, I will once more recommend the English translation of Colonel Cassad's blog.

This blogger is based in Sevastopol. I don't know his biography, but I imagine he comes from there, which means that he was a Ukrainian citizen until the Crimea and Sevastopol rejoined Russia. He also makes trips to Moscow occasionally on behalf of Novorossiya.

Until the English translation of his blog appeared, really the only resource English speakers had for getting information of an operational kind of how the civil war is going was the Saker. Like myself, the Saker was not born in and did not grow up in Russia. So if you want to get an impression of how the "Russian mind" sees the civil war in the former Ukraine and things in general, you will get more out of Cassad than the Saker.

And speaking of the Russian mind, Europeans have a sense of nationality, to be distinguished from being a citizen of a particular country, that Americans do not. (To put it using a distinction made by Alexander Dugin in a recent post which has not been translated into English as far as I know, nationality is a pre-modern concept, whereas citizenship is a modern concept.) I'm fairly certain that by now, most ethnically Russian citizens of Russia consider the people of Novorossiya to be Russian, in the sense of nationality. This means that to Russians, Novorossiya is already no longer a part of the imaginary country called the Ukraine, and that any talk about the Ukraine's "territorial integrity" is nothing but Anglo-imperialist, Russophobic nonsense.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 30 2014 4:16 utc | 52

Posted by: Demian | Jul 30, 2014 12:16:45 AM | 52

And you are talking nationalist nonsense. It is like Switzerland descending into civil war to join Germany/Austria, France and Italy - how come they never want to do that?

And your reasoning would take large chunks from the Russian Federation itself, not everyone is "ethnic Russian" there or exclusively Russian speaker.

Main fact is that Russia does not want to integrate Eastern Ukraine, same as the EU does not really want Western Ukraine, both are huge financial burderns. But of course Western Ukraine wants at least Poland's standard of living and Eastern Ukraine wants Russian wages.

Politicians have been lying to both parts of Ukraine.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 30 2014 4:54 utc | 53

Sorry, but this is not a really valid comparison. A ballistic missile carrying a 1000-kg warhead over a range of 50 km makes much more of a flare than a SAM carrying an 80-kg warhead over a range of 25km, and is much easier to detect in consequence.

I seriously doubt that the US has any reliable data about the MH17 shootdown. Whoever launched the missile (I don't buy the SU-25 interception story; it's a totally unsuitable aircraft for an interception of an airliner, whereas it is quite likely that the Kiyiv air force would try to sneak bombers into the Eastern Ukraine along commercial traffic corridors)wouldn't have announced it on radio, so the US ships and even the Russian monitors along the border might easily not have known that it was coming until it was launched.

In which case the missile would only have been in sight for a few seconds before detonating, and it would have been hard to track it back to source. The Russians might be able to do this; the Americans, probably not.

Don't overestimate American power; it's less than their PR would make you believe.

Posted by: The Creator | Jul 30 2014 5:02 utc | 54

new sanctions:

The United States expanded its July 16 sanctions to include three more state-owned banks and another weapons company, while also targeting technology for deep-water, Arctic and shale oil production.

While expanding on the earlier moves, the latest sanctions include limits. They don't affect Russia's current oil production, instead targeting the ability to develop new areas, senior administration officials told reporters on a background call. The European sanctions on weapons trade only involves future transactions, allowing France to complete an existing helicopter deal with Moscow.

If fully enacted by Europeans, which is doubtful, would this weak tea put a crimp in Europe's major economic ties with Russia -- about $500 billion in trade and investment per year?
Probably not, and if not, then Russia shouldn't be concerned.
And winter is not far away.
Doesn't September get a little chilly in Ukraine, Germany etc?

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 30 2014 5:07 utc | 55

@somebody #53:

It is like Switzerland descending into civil war to join Germany/Austria, France and Italy - how come they never want to do that?

Because French and Italian Swiss don't use the Swiss military to slaughter German Swiss?

And your reasoning would take large chunks from the Russian Federation itself, not everyone is "ethnic Russian"

Again, your Russophobia is blinding you. You yourself pointed out to me that the Russian Empire was able to find a political solution allowing non-ethnic Russians to live happily within it.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 30 2014 5:13 utc | 56

The NYTimes creates its own reality.

More frequent and prominent critics are saying that Mr. Putin and the hard-line leaders in the Kremlin overreached by suggesting that Russia, far more dependent than the old Soviet Union on international trade and financial markets, could thrive without the West.

There is no possibility, that I've seen, that Russia might be completely cut off from the West.

Obama is trying economically to weaken both Russia and the EU, which are US economic competitors, but they are onto him.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 30 2014 5:15 utc | 57

David Stockman has an entertaining view of the Ukraine situation, and the silly sanctions, here. He also addresses Ukraine "sovereignty." --After all, what is so sacrosanct about preserving the territorial integrity of the Ukraine?

There was until recently a neighboring “state” of equally artificial lineage called Czechoslovakia. It was carved out of the German and Austrian empires by the vengeful victors at Versailles, urged on by scheming Czech nationalists who coveted the resources of the Slovaks. But notwithstanding revolutions, the Stalinist oppression, the Cold War, the Prague Spring and all the rest of the 20th century mayhem—-the machinations at Versailles didn’t birth a state that was viable or sustainable. Accordingly, separation has been had, and the parties are better off for it—as are its neighbors and the larger world.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 30 2014 5:25 utc | 58

@ don bacon @ 57

I agree, and even so, look at North Korea. An extreme example yet where the political will exists, a political way possible. Russia has far more resources and weapons available to it, both literally and metaphorically, and is far far better situated on the map(than N.Korea) - at the center of the World. Maybe that's why the US is appearing desperate, even hysterical to capture Russia's Mediteranean - accessible ports in Syria and Crimea. A gambit likely to fail, in fact it has failed apparently. And even if it were to succeed ultimately, being at the center of the world in 2014 allows one to worry a whole lot less about where the galleons and cogs are going to park. Why the NYT hasn't brought up the total absurdity of the unstated-yet often stated US goal of "encircling Eurasia". An absurd Neocon fantasy at best

Posted by: Marc | Jul 30 2014 5:45 utc | 59

What is it ? It called imperialism. Capitalism has to go. Its GOING to go..will it take the world out with it on the way down?

Posted by: Marc | Jul 29, 2014 7:07:37 PM | 36

You're confused. Imperialism and british monetarism is what actually prevented capitalism and truly free market. The imperialism has to go, so the real, natural capitalism (as in free enterprise, freely exchanging goods and services for mutually agreed amount of cash/goods) can finally arrive.

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 30 2014 5:47 utc | 60

Posted by: Demian | Jul 30, 2014 1:13:09 AM | 56

Sure, but exclusively protecting Russian speakers does not help, this is Putin's foreign policy doctrine. It basically threatens any country with a large proportion of Russian speakers.

But talking of identity, you are a US citizen? In a hot war between the US and Russia, where would your support be?

Quite a few German Americans had this problem in World War I and II.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 30 2014 5:47 utc | 61

OT, but ...
It seems, Aussie Boss, Tony Abbott's 'other' little problem is way beyond MH17 access in SE Ukraine -- UK Queen's local Aussie government minders have ordered suppression of Aussie media relating to an international corruption issue.
Link to aus-suppression-order

Posted by: xt | Jul 30 2014 5:49 utc | 62

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 30, 2014 1:15:46 AM | 57

The point of this stage of sanctions is - what next? Russia can now adapt and escalate at free will, there is no next that is not hurting Europe more than they want to be hurt.

The other strategic point - Ukraine now concentrates its troops in reach of Russian troops. So if they want to destroy Ukrainian troops they got them on one spot.

Militarily Ukrainian military action is nuts - you cannot win against an enemy with this type of supporting hinterland. And you don't do it when a large part of your economy is intertwined.
But the strategy presumably is internal - the army is the way to get rid of Maidan trouble makers and Western Ukrainians want the split as much as Eastern Ukrainians want it, it is the only way they can join "the West".
So while Western and Eastern nationalists could agree easily, it is the oligarchs who want to keep the fracking areas. And it is the EU (and Russia) who don't really want to integrate their parts.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 30 2014 5:59 utc | 63

Posted by: Parviziyi | Jul 29, 2014 8:45:50 PM | 44

on sovereignty - sorry man but neither Germany nor Japan are sovereign. Both are occupied countries and that is absolutely official, black on white. we have some 300 bases and over 100.000 US/UK soldiers here

I can tell you from here in Germany, our "shadow" government is trying to keep the damage minimal while superficially playing along. Of course, the professional whores in the parliament and media are almost exclusively NATO shills and staunchly pro-US and pro-war, but they have no relation to the german peoples at all, they're living in their own reality.

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 30 2014 6:05 utc | 64

Difesa online is not likely a russian propaganda outlet. What they have to say about MH17 and the Black Sea 'Breeze' exercises amöunts to near certainty, that the US have unmistakeable and rather complete data of how M17 was brought down.

Posted by: TomGard | Jul 30 2014 6:15 utc | 65

Is there anu validity to this? Note: Third time posting it, it says it's BEEN posted but hasn't shown up... b? Food for thought anyway...

[3,260 word comment copied from somewhere else deleted here. Such will NOT pass the SPAM filter (notice the name? SPAM) and will NOT pass my overview of it - b.]

Posted by: Uncle $cam | Jul 30 2014 6:29 utc | 66

@somebody #61:

talking of identity, you are a US citizen? In a hot war between the US and Russia, where would your support be?

That is a rather invasive question, given that the NSA surveilles everything. And what practical meaning could who I "support" have, given that I am too old to be drafted into the military? Certainly, intellectual honesty should be seen as a higher value than rooting for your own nation, even at a time of war. (Bertrand Russel ran into this problem.)

The older I get, the less conflict I feel between my American and my Russian identities. Today, many Americans who have nothing to do with Russia say that Putin stands for them more than Obama does. The list of prominent elderly Americans—who do not need to worry about keeping a job—who see the present USG policy toward Russia as utter madness is long. David Stockman (the architect of Reagonomics!), whom Don Jacobs cited, is just one example.

Yes, I am a US citizen. There being a hot war between Russia and the US is not a contingency to be seriously considered, because of MAD. In any case, I will always be loyal to my country, so long as I am a citizen of it. This is just part of being an honorable person, which is a premodern concept, and hence something you may not understand, since you strike me as having a postmodern orientation. ;-)

Posted by: Demian | Jul 30 2014 6:32 utc | 67

Posted by: Demian | Jul 30, 2014 2:32:14 AM | 66

You are correct, "honor" is an alien concept to my code of ethics, what counts is what you do to "people" not to "countries". And "honor" tends to make people commit atrocities.

In any case, I will always be loyal to my country, so long as I am a citizen of it. This is just part of being an honorable person ...

So in your logic being a Russian citizen of Ukraine your honor would require to fight for Ukraine ...

Germany against stationing NATO troops in Eastern Europe.

And still aiming at a European Russian partnership though "cooperation is not possible at the moment".

Posted by: somebody | Jul 30 2014 7:33 utc | 68

@somebody #67:

So in your logic being a Russian citizen of Ukraine your honor would require to fight for Ukraine ...

Odd as it may seem, you and I are really on the same wavelength, despite our disagreements. Because I was just thinking of making another post, to follow up on my last post. But now you have directly brought up the issue I wanted to address.

The United States is a real nation. The Ukraine is not a nation; it is just a chimera constructed by successive waves of Russophobes, first the Poles, then the Austrio-Hungarians, then the Germans (WW I & II) (with the Bolsheviks encouraging this fiction), and finally the USG.

There is absolutely no requirement on any citizens of Ukraine to fight for "Ukraine", because there are no such entities as the Ukrainian nation or the Ukrainian people. These are just demented fascist fantasies. The rate at which draftees into the Ukrainian army are deserting shows that many "Ukrainians" understand this. (Again, to repeat: a "Ukrainian person" means either: (1) a Ukrofascist with an all-consuming, pathological hatred of Russians; (2) an entirely fictional entity.)

Sure, some Russians speak the Ukrainian dialect of Russian, but that is not something worth going to war about.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 30 2014 7:58 utc | 69

Today's news …

Dutch military stages liaison officer with Ukrainian Defense Forces.

PS on photo the happy faces of FM Timmermans and Defense minister Jeanine Hennis-Plasschaert after meeting a lenient parliament on the MH-17 investigation and EU sanctions of Russia.

Googling for an English version of the news item, this showed up:

Establishing a NATO Liaison Office (NLO) in Kiev from 1994 'till today: A Partnership for Peace

Rumor circuit: another Ukrainian military plane shot down near Donetsk; OSCE mission to crash site abandoned once again.

Posted by: Oui | Jul 30 2014 8:05 utc | 70

@ parviziy, use a translator and read this:

"Rund 25.000 britische und 68.000 amerikanische Soldaten sind noch auf deutschem Boden
stationiert, an 72 Orten, mit 159 Abrams Panzern, 173 Panzern M2, 18 Raketenwerfern
und über 100 Atombomben. Das sind mehr als einem freundlichen Austausch im Rahmen einer
Zusammenarbeit entspricht, dieser Umfang entspricht einer vollen Besatzungsstärke wie
im Irak, zumal deutsche Politiker diese Einrichtungen nicht einmal inspizieren dürfen."

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 30 2014 8:05 utc | 71

Posted by: Demian | Jul 30, 2014 3:58:41 AM | 68

Sorry, this is the Oxford Dictionary definition of nation

A large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory

Even if you take language as exclusive criteria for a nation, the United States do not qualify

The most common language in the United States is known as American English. English is the de facto national language of the United States, with 80% of the population claiming it as a mother tongue, and some 95% claiming to speak it "well" or "very well".[5] However, no official language exists at the federal level. There have been several proposals to make English the national language in amendments to immigration reform bills,[6][7] but none of these bills has become law with the amendment intact. The situation is quite varied at the state and territorial levels, with some states mirroring the federal policy of adopting no official language in a de jure capacity, others adopting English alone, others officially adopting English as well as local languages, and still others adopting a policy of de facto bilingualism.

Plus, the US insistence that citizenship is founded in territory alone makes it possible to be a US national but no citizen.

So, to go to war for the US is not fighting for a "nation", if it is required by citizens for "honor", it is the same honor that would force a Russian Ukrainian to go to war for Ukraine.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 30 2014 8:27 utc | 72

@somebody: "So in your logic being a Russian citizen of Ukraine your honor would require to fight for Ukraine ..."

That is totally illogical. To begin with, "honor" is a purely fictional nonsense for egoists and dumbfwck rednecks. There is no such thing, it's just a tool to lure in the gullible.

As for the war and choosing sides, I can give you my own example from the past - I DECLINED to shoot ANY people, because that is always wrong, in every combination you can think of. No entity (especially fictional ones like "state" or "nation") has the authority to make you kill another human. So obviously, there is only one right choice - stay human and don't let the idiots make you lose your humanity.

Of course, defending your door when foreign troops come plundering is a totally different issue, I'm talking about the badly misnamed "civil" wars, which are always driven by elites to bleed the people, good old divide and conquer.

And as a German, you should know the good old "stell dir vor es ist Krieg und keiner kommt hin".

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 30 2014 8:31 utc | 73

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 30, 2014 4:31:39 AM | 72

I agree, that was my point. Cheerleeding for either side is war propaganda nothing else.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 30 2014 8:43 utc | 74

This here is an Daily Mail "expert" description how a Buk missile would pulverise a plane on impact - written shortly after the event.
Somehow this does not seem to have happened - this here are Wall Street Journal maps and photographs of the debris.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 30 2014 9:08 utc | 75

Forget the Buk theory, a Buk system requires full working radar infrastructure with live comm up the command chain etc. Even if the separatist had a working Buk launcher, it would be useless without the rest, especially radars and flight control are required.

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 30 2014 9:30 utc | 76

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 30, 2014 5:30:01 AM | 75

I would keep an open mind - some separatists are very professional, not rag tag.

Everybody would know about it though, just us stupid citizens are not told.

this here is from the last time a passenger jet got downed in Ukraine

Instead, the US and Israeli authorities are convinced that a stray missile was to blame. American officials have refused to disclose how they gathered so much detail about an off-course missile which they believe caused the crash. However, defence experts said one of America's early-warning satellites, which cover large swathes of the former Soviet Union, would almost certainly have detected the missile launch. A Pentagon official said intercepted telemetry data - information on the speed and flight path of the missile - showed that a single missile had gone "wildly off course" before the plane exploded. He said it had been fired from the Crimean Peninsula but apparently missed its intended target, an unmanned drone. Instead, it failed to self-destruct, as programmed, and locked on to the radar signal from the Siberian airliner - with devastating results.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 30 2014 10:00 utc | 77

No. Definitely impossible to use the Buk the way you imply - it is simply technically not doable.

The last time they downed the passenger jet was actually the first and only time that the Ukies had "exercises" with they ancient Buk systems.

Now they supposedly also had an "exercise" and another passenger jet goes down - go figure... actually it could be incompetence just like the last time, but if, then it is only possible on the Ukie side.

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 30 2014 10:30 utc | 78

Marc #49 any bibliography to support this claim?

on the other side is Simon Epstein's work, for example Un paradoxe français (2008)

Posted by: Cu Chulainn | Jul 30 2014 10:53 utc | 79

All the bibliography you need is the count of Germans that died in France via the hand of the "resistance". It was a joke, nothing more.

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 30 2014 11:26 utc | 80

Marc says that there was no significant Gaullist role in the resistance; Epstein shows the opposite, and that many pre-war Socialists were Vichy

Posted by: Cu Chulainn | Jul 30 2014 11:31 utc | 81

And I'm telling you there was no resistance worth being called such.

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 30 2014 11:47 utc | 82

Australian Air Power:

"Development of the improved 9M37M1 Buk M1 variant commenced in 1979 and IOC was achieved in 1983. The 9M37M1 Buk M1 variant has been exported.

The new variant introduced a range of incremental improvements to system components, resulting in the 9S470M1 command post, the 9A310M1 TELAR with improved 9S35M1 Fire Dome and 9Sh38-3 electro-optical tracker ..."

So this of Aviation Week is overall correct

Posted by: TomGard | Jul 30 2014 11:53 utc | 83

@ Tom: the tracking on the launcher is like a laser pointer, it can do absolutely nothing without the lead (angle/speed/azimuth etc.) in real-time from the long-range radar, or rather at least two such for properly pinpointing a SU-25.

Theoretically it is possible to shoot a bullet into the air and hit the pilot in some aircraft - it is about the same degree of probability as the launcher-only version of the story.

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 30 2014 12:08 utc | 84

Canadian OSCE head talks of holes like from machine gun fire and no missile fragments were found - you have to get through a lot of "human interest" to the end of the video. But is no expert, he says.

Two fringe German specialists say something similar, one former GDR NVA, the other a pilot with Russian roots.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 30 2014 12:33 utc | 85

And the serbian army says the same too (I already posted the link to the article in one of the threads here), they own and operate those systems too, first-hand knowledge.

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 30 2014 12:35 utc | 86

Demian @32

The premise that the Ukies couldn't run it as a false flags makes one big assumption - that the pilot was Ukrainian. In my view, a mercenary would be used, possibly Polish. Come in, do the job and disappear with a new identity. Probable cost? A few million tops. If the Ukies' controllers were really good, the pilot would leave this world shortly after gaining his new identity.

Posted by: Yonatan | Jul 30 2014 12:51 utc | 87

false again.
Serbia operates modernized SA-6 "Gainful". Neither military-today nor Deagel lists Serbia amoung operators. Russian wikipedia claims they have "a small amount", citing an IHS Jane's article of 2008 that isn't accessible. Not good enough.

I object the culture of lying and denying, I don't argue for rebels having shot down MH17.

Posted by: TomGard | Jul 30 2014 13:25 utc | 88

yonatan @87

It's a valid objection, that the Ukies couldn't decide the False Flag on their own and are not reliable enough to be commissioned by the US. But this lack of reliability also handicaps the use of a (polish) mercenary.

But why not use a polish (NATO) F-16 or Mig-29? Russia won't tell!

Posted by: TomGard | Jul 30 2014 13:39 utc | 89

I keep going back to the claim that the Ukrainians thought the plane was Putins,(similar markings)and they shot it down,The interim might be back stage outrage between Russia and US,on the down low,as this possible act might have very very bad implications.
Thus the lack of Russian and US proof.
Demian;No offense,but watching soccer (football)is like watching paint dry,and there is more action in a 0-0 ballgame,and in one play in American football.sorry.

Posted by: dahoit | Jul 30 2014 14:49 utc | 90

Now this

In response to repeated calls from the US for Russia to ensure international experts a safe, clear passage to the MH17 crash site, Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has asked the UN Security Council to authorize the deployment of Russian Peacekeepers to the area.

Lavrov says that the only way that Russia can live up to the demands of the US and ensure the safety of investigators is through the use of Russian peacekeepers, as Kiev has previously stated that they (Kiev) does not assume responsibility for the safety of international experts.

Experts from both the Netherlands and Australia have been trying to gain access to the area where the doomed jetliner went down, but their efforts have been hampered from increased shelling by the Kiev military.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 30 2014 15:00 utc | 91

@ Tom Gard: again, I posted the interview with the serbian airforce officer in one of the latest threads, too lazy to look for it right now. There he explained in detail how the tracking and shooting is executed and which part of the unit does the specific tasks. The first thing you must know is that there is a plane at all and where it's coming from, only then can you try to find it with the narrow on-board aiming radar. You must know where to look BEFORE you can use it.

Now of course there is a possibility that Russians did it and gave them the data for the launch in real-time, but then we would see that the russian radar was active and that was certifiably not the case. All while the Ukrainian radars were active according to russian intel communicated in the news, which noone disputed so far.

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 30 2014 15:29 utc | 92

And Tom, I'm not talking about Serbia *today*, but in former Yugoslavia, we had all the russian systems over the years as soon as they were available. Until the war that is, afte that, pretty much nothing got updated/upgraded from what I heard. They don't even have a draft there anymore, only a "professional" army, just like the rest of the current american colonies.

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 30 2014 15:33 utc | 93

And dude, I'm coming from there and served in that army before the war, so don't try to be a smartass here. It's as ridiculous as if I tried teaching you about the US army (ass-uming you are an American, otherwise insert your country of origin instead).

Here's the interview:

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 30 2014 15:40 utc | 94


The first thing you must know is that there is a plane at all and where it's coming from, only then can you try to find it with the narrow on-board aiming radar.

Right. That's why this ominous "could-be" SU 25, that the russions claim to have observed, is indispensible for the theory of an accidential shoot down, because it could have been targeted optically, shot at in autonomous and automatic mode, with a failing rocket changing target.
We know by the debris, that it nearly couldn't happen this way, that the B-777 wasn't downed by a 70 kg HE fragmentation warhead that found it's target. But the counting thing is, that Russia puts it's facts in a way that is not less deceptive, than the american narrative, just "more open" to variants.

And this had to be told, I say.

Posted by: TomGard | Jul 30 2014 16:10 utc | 95

$ ballistic missiles were fired and all were shot down before they reached their targets. An article on The Saker is very confusing over the exact circumstances of who, where and how the shoot down occurred. There were movements of Russian troops towards and away from the border about the time the missiles were fired.

Posted by: Yonatan | Jul 30 2014 16:15 utc | 96

Ooops missing </a> in previous post. Apologies

4 ballistic missiles were fired and all were shot down before they reached their targets. An article on The Saker is very confusing over the exact circumstances of who, where and how the shoot down occurred. There were movements of Russian troops towards and away from the border about the time the missiles were fired.

Posted by: Yonatan | Jul 30 2014 16:17 utc | 97

Btw.: Those "bullet holes" "expertize" is a piss take of the russian narrative of the "could be SU-25". Impossible to tackle a B-777 by gunfire with a SU-25, that would be much slower in this heigth with a highly stressed Pilot, because the cabin is not pressurized.
And it would still be a quite demanding job for a Mig 29 having one maschine gun with just 100 rounds. So the possibly underlying narrative of a ukrainian Mig-Pilot gone mad is bullshit, too.

Posted by: TomGard | Jul 30 2014 16:33 utc | 98

@B or anyone else;
Roughly, how many civilians have been killed or wounded in
East Ukraine by the junta forces?
Thanks in advance.

Posted by: Luca K | Jul 30 2014 16:41 utc | 99

It has become a dirty war everywhere uwith lies, hatred and revenge.
One wonders what is happening to the world. Does it need a WW3 to get back to its sense?

Posted by: Virgile | Jul 30 2014 16:50 utc | 100

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