Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 27, 2014

Ukraine: Government Attack In Breach Of UN Resolution

The federalists fighting in east Ukraine seem to be in trouble. The Ukrainian army and "volunteers are attacking in size and tries to cut the federalist held area into two by pushing from two sides into the direction of Torez.

The map shows the rough plan, not actually progress, as presented by the Ukrainian government side.


bigger

 

Torez, the center of the push, is the area where flight MH-17 came down. With this push to the crash side the Ukrainian army infringes on the July 20 UN Security Council resolution where point 7:

Demands that all military activities, including by armed groups, be immediately ceased in the immediate area surrounding the crash site to allow for security and safety of the international investigation;

Dutch investigators planned to visit the site today but had to stay away while fighting occurred in the area. From the Ukrainian plan above it is obvious that the Ukrainian attack, not the federalists, is responsible for the fighting and the coup-government of Ukraine for impeding secure access to the site. Why is it so urgent right now for the Ukrainian government to get control of the crash site?

As part of its all-over attack today the Ukrainian army indiscriminately used Grad multiple rocket launchers to shell (vid) the surrounded city of Gorlivka which is in the hands of a few federalists. There are reports about several dozens of civilian casualties from this attack including a mother and her young child (photo).

Earlier Human Rights Watch had condemned such use of Grad rockets by the Ukrainian government:

The use of indiscriminate rockets in populated areas violates international humanitarian law, or the laws of war, and may amount to war crimes.

How long will it take for the "west" to express outrage over this breach of an UN resolution by the Ukrainian governments and its indiscriminate killing of "its own civilians"?

Posted by b on July 27, 2014 at 16:28 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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How long will it take for the "west" to express outrage over this breach of an UN resolution by the Ukrainian governments and its indiscriminate killing of "its own civilians"?

That will never happen they really don't care and yes why the big push to the crash sight?

Thanks b for the update.

Posted by: jo6pac | Jul 27 2014 16:35 utc | 1

unfortunately i agree with jo6pac.. as we are witnessing in the onslaught in gaza - no western countries or the UN are expressing any outrage.. it will be the same here.. unfortunately the UN is almost completely useless..

Posted by: james | Jul 27 2014 16:40 utc | 2

Indeed - no chance whatsoever that this will happen anytime soon; if ever.

Der Spiegel - admittedly embued with a rather anti-Russia tilt these last few months - just conducted a survey in Germany whereby 52% of participants allegedly support harsher sanctions against Russia over the shooting down of MH17 (Google translation: http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fpolitik%2Fausland%2Fumfrage-zu-russland-deutsche-befuerworten-haertere-sanktionen-a-983083.html&hl=en&langpair=auto|en&tbb=1&ie=windows-1252).

Of course, these surveys are usually not worth the paper they are written on; but since Der Spiegel still carries a lot of weight, this does not bode well at all.

Posted by: mh505 | Jul 27 2014 16:50 utc | 3

Hmmmm...
I wanted to check on Strelkov's VK page but it appears the whole VK.com is down.

Posted by: acrimonious | Jul 27 2014 17:09 utc | 4

snark: "All military activities" obviously means anti-junta forces and doesn't include the good guys, the junta and friends, whose only intention is to bring peace and stability to the crash site. In fact they might need to destroy the site to save it.

incidentally, credit due for --

yep, it is against the security council resolution demanding a cease fire.
Posted by: somebody | Jul 27, 2014 10:02:46 AM | 131

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 27 2014 17:09 utc | 5

Well, if Russia wanted to push it they now can go in under the pretext of enforcing the UNSC resolution that was passed unanimously. If they let the Ukies have control of the crash site, they will have no one to blame but themselves for the following whitewash. Russia needs to secure the site and invite in whoever wants to inspect it from any country that is interested.

Posted by: Lysander | Jul 27 2014 17:26 utc | 6

Well, if Russia wanted to push it they now can go in under the pretext of enforcing the UNSC resolution that was passed unanimously.

Russia can go in at any time. It will face no resistance but admonishing rhetoric with a wink. The real question is, considering that, why hasn't it? I've answered that long ago, and it's the only answer that makes any sense. Everyone else is grasping at straws or pushing a false ideological agenda.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Jul 27 2014 17:42 utc | 7

' How long will it take for the "west" to express outrage over this breach of an UN resolution by the Ukrainian governments and its indiscriminate killing of "its own civilians"? '

About as long as its taken the "west" to express outrage over Israel's serial breach of every UN resolution condemning its aggression in Palestine and its genocide of the Palestinian people?

The sun has set in the "west", long time passing.

Posted by: john francis lee | Jul 27 2014 17:50 utc | 8

@ 7 but it begs the question of why the Ukie government is so eager to seize the crash site. Given that the Novorassians have permitted international access from the beginning and have even agreed to Dutch and Australian security; and given that its their own offensive in defiance of a UNSC resolution that their own western patrons sponsored. Do you have an answer for that as well?

By contrast Russia, since long before July 17, has avoided any overt involvement despite massive civilian bombardment and even several cross border shelling incidents. They are maintaining the same policy as always, though circumstances may require they change it.

Posted by: Lysander | Jul 27 2014 17:58 utc | 9

Russian media allege flight MH17 shot down by Ukrainian missile unit


The Malaysian passenger plane MH17 may have been shot down July 17 by a Ukrainian anti-aircraft unit during an exercise, according to Russia's Ria Novosti, which cited an anonymous source in the Ukrainian security apparatus. The new and detailed allegations in the Russian media come amid mounting US and European Union charges that Russia is responsible for the shooting down of the jetliner.

Maybe that has something to do with the 'new offensive' at the crash site?

Posted by: john francis lee | Jul 27 2014 17:58 utc | 10

The Ukrainian government does not seem to know what it is doing

This here is the - correct - Irish Times reporting

The Ukrainian government said its forces were advancing towards the crash site to try to free it from the rebels, who have impeded the work of international monitors and whom Kiev accuses of tampering with evidence pointing to who shot it down. “All our troops are aiming to get there and liberate this territory so that we can guarantee that international experts can carry out a 100-per cent investigation of the site and get all proof needed to deduce the real reason for this tragedy,” said Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for Ukraine’s Security Council. International monitors said the fighting itself could affect the crash site, underlining the growing complexity of trying to establish who shot down the plane.

And this is the Los Angeles Times quoting Ukrainian Foreign Minister Klimko

The Ukrainian government said it does not wish to conduct a more wholesale military operation at the crash site because doing so, though securing the area, would compromise much of the evidence any investigation would need to preserve.

"If you do that, all the traces will be disrupted," Ukraine Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin told CNN on Sunday when asked about a military intervention specifically aimed at securing the site.

So ...

German media is uniformly calling for sanctions and blaming Putin with virtually the same talking points, citing MH17 as turning point ...

Posted by: somebody | Jul 27 2014 18:12 utc | 11

The Ukrainian offensive near the crash site may have the added benefit of fouling the evidence of the investigation, then. Traces of Uke munitions at the site? Well, that will be blamed on the fighting rather than the downing of the plane no matter who holds the territory after the offensive. Win/win for Ukes.

Posted by: yellowsnapdragon | Jul 27 2014 18:31 utc | 12

Posted by: Lysander | Jul 27, 2014 1:58:13 PM | 9

It's simply not true that Kiev is The West's proxy. It's more true it's Russia's proxy. If you read this blog post, you'll see why. The West is all good with this if you pay attention to the actions and not the words. I provide the reason Russia hasn't invaded. It doesn't have to when it can get Ukraine to Balkanize itself and then the spoils are divvied up after the Ukrainian population's been culled a bit.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Jul 27 2014 18:34 utc | 13

@12. There are a million ways the Ukies with the help of the msm can foul up an investigation. But I figure traces of an air to air missile or a SAM would not be explained by ground fighting. Also, if the plane stayed in flight for a while after a fist strike, made a 90 degree turn, then got struck again, someone has all the radar data to prove it.

All this is i material of course. No matter the evidence it will be blame Russia 24/7

Posted by: Lysander | Jul 27 2014 18:42 utc | 14

Fighting in the area may be an added benefit, not a defining element. The West's psyops works by providing plausible possibilities not plausible probabilities anyway. Fouling the nest helps. Note that in spite of the plane's curious turn after the Uke fighter jets' presence, we are told the black boxes indicate a missile and rapid, catastrophic decompression. Is that more possible or probable given the radar evidence? I assume that info is from the flight data rather than flight recorder which will likely show what actually happened in the cockpit among actual human beings.

Posted by: yellowsnapdragon | Jul 27 2014 19:01 utc | 15

@ yellowsnapdragon

You didn't see the photo of the cockpit section on the ground? Instant death.

Shrapnel Damage of Cockpit MH-17 Devastating plus enlarged.

Posted by: Oui | Jul 27 2014 19:42 utc | 16

I find it curious that the first (as far as I know) outside ‘officials’ who visited the site was the OSCE. There is plenty of vid. of them there doing nothing much except looking totally creeped out and taking photos..

They were obviously ‘allowed and accompanied’ in some way and had no difficulties. Now, it is so that the OSCE had some people there already, but I did read that one or another travelled there for that purpose. The mandate of the OSCE is incredibly broad - so broad as to be meaningless imho. Gender equality, good governance, free media, the environment, a buffet of ‘Western’ concerns. They are not and make no claim to be experts in any field related to an airplane crash or any other such disaster type event.

Their presence made a show of ‘internationals’ on the site. The separatists had no objections (and haven’t had as far as I can tell to such moves, in fact it was the OSCE itself who brokered such an agreement, see more below.)

OSCE may have welcomed the visibility, and it is against the nature of such orgs. that when allowed or solicited they would refrain. Or they may have been manipulated somewhat, or even ordered, but their actual visit had absolutely nothing to do with any analysis, securing of the site, etc. Maybe they did play a role as ‘intermediary’ that was worthwhile.

In their declaration of 18 July, the day after the crash - thus really not many hours later, in a as labelled ‘plenary meeting’ that must have been organised at top speed - they already invoke Dutch experts, as if they knew the victims were Dutch. (Well that was easy to guess, but to put it in an official doc?)

http://www.osce.org/pc/121427?download=true

This document mentions a “Trilateral Contact Group” and its advice or decisions or guidance etc. This group is (from their website) composed of “senior representatives of Ukraine, the Russian Federation, and the OSCE” not named. The group convened in Kiev on 17 July (day of) and held a video conference with separatists in Donesk, not named, who agreed to cooperate in the usual (secure the site, let others in, provide safe access, etc. ..)

http://www.osce.org/home/121390

A later article (22 July, Interfax Ukraine, reporting on an OSCE news which I could not find) mentions video conferences with separatists, and gives names of the participants: Leonid Kuchma (former Ukr. pres.), Mik. Zurabov (Russian ambassador to Ukr.) and Heidi Tagliavini (yes Swiss and OSCE chairperson with a long history of such involvement, b. 1950.) This is the ‘Trilateral Group.’

http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/214910.html

One article from Kiev Post shows a picture of Oleksander Borodai speaking to the Trilateral Group in a vid conf. (22 July.) He is the PM of Donesk Repub. (See wiki, news, etc.)

http://tinyurl.com/nv2b2t8

You can see him talking here on this matter and others (BBC with eng subs. ignore the BBC spin, 24 July.)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28450303

Since then, access to the site has become, say, ‘more complicated.’

- Just some history that I looked up.

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 27 2014 19:55 utc | 17

The pilots couldn't have turned as they did after a strike like that, so there is likely important information in the cvr detailing what the pilots were told by ATC, what they saw, and what they said to each other before that strike. Something happened first. What's been suggested by reports of the data recorder is that everything was normal until the missile strike, which couldn't be true if the plane turned as it did.

Posted by: yellowsnapdragon | Jul 27 2014 20:00 utc | 18

Yellow at 18, yes. The main questions are: Why was that plane deviated from the ‘usual course’ (by some ATC, Ukrainian or possibly Polish), why have the Kiev authorities taken the tapes (reportedly), what use is that as that info. will be in the black boxes? And then, why did it veer so sharply just before it finally crashed / was downed? My personal feeling is it was hit once by something, veered away, and then somehow it was downed for good. Anyway this is all speculation.

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 27 2014 20:36 utc | 19

Ukraine is racing against time. They can't sustain this much longer - people are already burning draft cards. Their casualty rates are high.

Posted by: jeff | Jul 27 2014 20:39 utc | 20

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/25/mh17-sacrificed-airliner/

Long but worth the time

Posted by: jo6pac | Jul 27 2014 21:00 utc | 21

@19 Noirette -

Yr speculation is exactly that of retired Russ. Gen Zhillin (sp?), i.e. hit by air-to-air missile and then by ground-to-air.

The Americans have the spy satellite images, but won't release them.

Posted by: chet380 | Jul 27 2014 21:10 utc | 22

@ Oui and ysd,

None of that is inconsistent with the theory of the Russian Air Force colonel: that an engine was struck first with an air to air missile, causing a hard turn. Then the damaged but still flyable plane was finished off with a SAM. That May or may not be the true story, but it is certainly consistent with massive decompression of the cabin and destruction of the cockpit. They haven't said what happened before that.

Posted by: Lysander | Jul 27 2014 21:11 utc | 23

that an engine was struck first with an air to air missile, causing a hard turn

But that too would be evident from the black boxes, right? The Brits are analyzing those I believe. It truly sucks that we are unable to trust anything done or said by the 'West'.

Posted by: tgs | Jul 27 2014 21:21 utc | 24

@tgs,

Yes it would be. I'm no expert, or even knowledgable about these things. I'd like to believe there's a limit to what they can fake and still make plausible. For example, if radars recorded the hard turn, how cant he fdr say there wasn't one and still be credible? I guess time will tell, but how long does it take to study these things? They've had the boxes for a couple of days now and we still haven't heard much. Maybe that's the plan. Either never release the data, or wait a few months when everyone has forgotten. Not sure if they can concoct an entirely fake report and still be taken seriously. Yeah the US booboisie will buy anything, but there's the rest of the world to consider.

Posted by: Lysander | Jul 27 2014 21:44 utc | 25

Lysander,

Yet unreleased data from black boxes indicate missile attack, or so we are told. That's a credible detail but obviously not the full truth. This follows the the West's MO of opinion shaping via the media: Release credible details that, taken alone, support the chosen narrative while ignoring or suppressing the context and additional information that contradicts the story line. I don't know what we will see in the voice recorders or if we will get to see what's there at all. I don't know how the west plans to convince us that the Novorussians did it when there is so much evidence against it.

Posted by: yellowsnapdragon | Jul 27 2014 21:46 utc | 26

that an engine was struck first with an air to air missile, causing a hard turn

Yet-

Air India flight was 90 seconds away when missile struck Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17

The Air India flight crew heard ATC issue the reroute orfer to MH17 and apparently nothing else. Where's the distress call?

Posted by: Anon | Jul 27 2014 21:55 utc | 27

@tgs,

All the anonymous leaked reports of the black box data say is that whatever is there is consistent with a missile downing the plane. If the plane was struck first by an air to air missile at an engine, the data recorder would have recorded the engine failure and the voice recorder would have recorded the concern of the pilots. So, I believe the anonymous leak is a strategic one to maintain the story line.

Reminds me of the infamous 16 words. " The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein . . ."

Posted by: yellowsnapdragon | Jul 27 2014 21:58 utc | 28

I fear for the people of the eastern ukraine. Unless the Russian Army executes and encirclement and crushes the entire Ukrainian forces there are some bad time ahead.

Posted by: Northern Observer | Jul 27 2014 22:08 utc | 29

@Northern Observer #28:

You have to remember that, for over twenty years now, the citizens of the former Ukraine were taught that they are something called "the Ukrainian people" and that the main part of being Ukrainian is fanatically hating Russians.

From the point of view of the Russian government, it is preferable for the resistance to defeat the junta on their own, without Russia directly interfering militarily. And hope of that will remain, so long as the junta is not able to control the Russian border. It tried to gain control of it last week and failed; that's when MH17 was shot down.

Russia's intervening militarily would strengthen the junta considerably. At present, ironically, the Kyiv government appears to be less stable than the governments of Donetsk and Lugansk.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 27 2014 22:29 utc | 30

Where's the distress call?

Yes, strange. Given the time it took to crash. No broadcast? Nothing?

And how long does it take the British to listen to the bloody black box recording? Or did I just miss the newspaper headlines about what really happened?

we are unable to trust anything done or said by the 'West'.
Absolutely not trustworthy. I feel stupid enough having listened to all the crap they taught in high-school.

Posted by: DM | Jul 27 2014 22:30 utc | 31

@DM #30:

I don't know when you went to high school, but the lies our government and media are now telling us are much worse than the patriotic nonsense we were taught in high school.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 27 2014 22:44 utc | 32

OT, so apologies: The Guardian is not accepting comments re The Flight of the Neocon diplomats from the area formerly known as Libya. Quelle surprise...

Posted by: Cortes | Jul 27 2014 23:03 utc | 33

Pyatt emails satellite images of missiles from Russian territory to Ukraine.

http://rt.com/usa/175980-us-images-russia-ukraine/

Looks like Pyatt got the info out before Novorussians could document any wrongdoing by Pyatt. The damage is done.

Posted by: yellowsnapdragon | Jul 27 2014 23:06 utc | 34

The English Colonel Cassad web site is doing a good job of tracking the original Russophone blog. The following post gives you an idea of just how crazy the Yukies are:

On Atrocities of Russian Militarism

In this TV interview, the anchor barely lets the poor HRW worker get a word in, and then when she doesn't affirm his leading question that Russia is firing shells into the territory of the former Ukraine, he just cuts her off and ends the interview. Incredible. The interview is in Russian, but an English transcript is provided.

As I said before, the Ukrofascists are actually more crazy than the original Nazis. (On the actual YouTube page of the video, you have Ukie posters saying the HRW worker was lying.) This is one reason why I don't think the regime will last very long.

It really is an outrage that the Western media are not letting Westerners see the true nature of the regime. It is not that hard: all you have to do is show some Ukrainian "news coverage" of the conflict.

Of course, that Western governments are giving such a regime the time of day shows that they are not much better.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 28 2014 0:16 utc | 35

Kiev intensifies combat operations in MH17 crash zone to evade exposure - DNR PM

Intensified combat operations “are irrefutable evidence proving that Kiev is seeking to destroy all evidence of the crime committed by its military,” Borodai was quoted as saying.

“The junta is in panic, the only thing that matters for them today is to evade exposure. Kiev’s actions run counter to [President Pyotr] Poroshenko’s decision to declare a 40-kilometre zone around the crash site a ceasefire territory.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 28 2014 1:08 utc | 36

And the Junta in Kiev is refusing to make public the tower-cockpit voice recordings preceding the crash of MH17 ..that's got to be a massive violation of about 10 "international laws", right ? There is no international law. Only might makes right. Maybe, there was such a thing up until the mid 90's, perhaps, some nominal code that nations, including even the US, felt bound to at least pretend to submit to. That's all over. We have entered a new age of barbarism and decline and the only satisfaction I get out of that knowledge, is that the most barbaric and criminal actors of all - the US and its ghetto of state terrorists, and above the globalist ruling class, will not escape the downfall in the end.

Posted by: Marc | Jul 28 2014 3:06 utc | 37

Russian Spring

Donetsk. 07/28/2014-05:45

Comment: The essence of the events is the Ukrainian top brass has started an operation planned long time ago to simultaneously strike from two converging direction from south and north, bypassing Donetsk, with the goal to create a big Donetsk caldron.

From south, the blow is at cities Shakhtersk-Torez. From north – at Gorlovka-Debal`tsevo. Diverting strikes are inflicted on cities Pervomaysk and Donetsk.

The goal: to sever communications and conclude the encirclement (of Donetsk) in city Yenakievo.

This is scenario, which Igor` Strelkov warned about. It is this tactic that explains the fact of sacrificing soldiers in the South caldron (settlement Marinovka – Russia border). Dying as fodder for cannons, hundreds conscripts tie, nevertheless, the combatant forces.

Posted by: Fete | Jul 28 2014 3:14 utc | 38

The junta's operational plans and the location of the MH17 crash site match far too well for MH17 to have been an accident or "collateral damage". The plane hit exactly where the junta and NATO wanted it to be.

This conspiracy is further revealed by the GPS jamming and spoofing. Russians were claiming the Kiev plan was to have the plane crash somewhere in the Southern Cauldron, but it somehow magically turned around and flew 30 km backwards. This is not possible, as the plane entered the crash site from the west, not the east.

I found out about the plan a day before the junta published it, and issued this grave warning:

Ukraine: WARNING of imminent WWIII!

Open-source intelligence points to an imminent danger of Russia–NATO war in the Ukraine.

I now think MH17 crashed exactly where it was planned, right in the center of Donbass. Cities form a protective ring around Donbass, but the crash site in the middle of agricultural fields is the perfect spot for an Ukie / NATO airborne invasion.

The retired Russian air force colonel Aleksand Zhilin claimed the NATO plan was to crash the plane in the Southern Calderon so that the Ukie troops now trapped there could be relieved by airborne NATO forces. He said that this plan failed as the plane somehow diverted north and landed in area held the Novorossiyan Armed Forces.

Zhilin says that based on the Russian ATC radar data – confirmed by the transponder data stored in the FlightRadar24 database – the plane flew some 10 km past the crash site, somehow magically turned around and crashed coming from the east. The pattern of debris however proves the exact opposite: the plane came from the west.
http://ai-zhilin.livejournal.com/1419422.html

The fact is, that the GPS data received by MH17 and forwarded to Russian ATC by its transponder beeps and to the FlightRadar24 database through its automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast (ADS-B) beeps is 20 km from where the plane was at the time.

This can only be explained in two ways:

1) The false GPS data came form an escort fighter spoofing HM17
2) MH17 was fed false GPS by the GPS jammer on the escort fighter.

https://twitter.com/PetriKrohn/status/492944857405878272

Both of these techniques were on the menu in the NATO SeaBreeze exercise. RIA Novosti now reports that GPS manipulation had been observed in the area.
http://en.ria.ru/world/20140725/191270394/Pilots-Reported-Problems-with-GPS-in-Ukraine-Prior-to-MH17-Crash.html

***

This is exactly the kind of end result that NATO would like to achieve with their false-flag MH17 attack. The security threat posed by these troops / "unarmed" police can only be offset by a tenfold number of *armed* Russian troops. (Or a Russian no-fly, no-drive zone over all of Donbass.)

One must assume that the real mission of these troops is to prepare the landing zone for a NATO or Ukrainian airborne offensive, or alternatively, an Ukrainian armed breakthrough. It does not matter if the troops are unarmed. Their role is to act as the eyes and ears of the invading force. They will hide in the bushes – looking for "evidence" – and report on the movement of Novorossiyan forces with their satellite communication gear.

Australia has "promised" to send 200 armed troops. These are already in the UK I hear. With whom did they agree about this mission? Kiev? I do not think anyone asked Novorossiya or even Russia. How the hell do they think they will get in? On the heels of the of a Ukie tank battalion?
(It is more likely the Australians would need to spearhead the tank battalion, and act as the infantry protection Ukie tanks are desperately lacking.)

To quote the Malaysian pro-NATO press:

“You need radar, reconnaissance, commandos, anti-tank weapons, attack helicopters... Well, that’s starting to look like a small-scale war,” Klep told Dutch broadcaster NOS.

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/securing-mh17-site-a-dangerous-tightrope-act-experts-warn

***

We are now waiting for direct US and NATO aggression on the Ukraine and Novorossiya. Russia needs to make the choice now; whether to defend Novorossiya or allow total NATO occupation of the Ukraine.

It is clear that all NATO actions are aimed at provoking Russia to act militarily. This would allow the US to isolate Russia from its "International Community". It is widely believed that this is a trap and Russia should not fall for it.

Yet other are saying that Putin has a cunning plan, and after two years of US occupation Russia would somehow magically turn the tide. Maybe.

On the other hand, NATO very much wants all of Ukraine. They very much hope that Russia will not intervene and kill their troops. (Russkies killing Russkies is always a good thing.) They want to occupy Ukraine without any effort.

Russia is now between Scylla and Charybdis. Both alternatives are horrible. To decide, Russia must resolve which is the outcome NATO wants – and chose the other.

Russia must understand that NATO is now the reincarnation of the Third Reich.


Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jul 28 2014 6:07 utc | 39

Is it me or is the US/Israel war machine, propaganda and "diplomats" in tow, going just completely f*cking bonkers beserker like never before these last few weeks? Now they've got "satellite images" from a private- PRIVATE- corporation showing Russia is shelling Ukraine from the Russian side of the border. Is it desperation or out of control hubris and power madness? As for the MH17, the longer it takes to release the black box recordings, the more sure it is they'll be tampered with, or cherry picked at least. Possible they may be "damaged and unrecoverable" or some bs. Anyone have any idea how easy or not it would be to doctor those things? And will we ever hear the recordings from the control tower or will those be dropped down the memory hole? And is nobody gonna touch #12? Gold N Flowfield, that's up there with the most ridiculous thing you've ever spewed. And that's saying something.

Posted by: Colinjames | Jul 28 2014 6:17 utc | 40

Sonic Youth's iconic song is Youth Against Fascism. Somebody should write a song Women Against Fascism, in honor of the Ukrainian women who are resisting the conscription of their sons and husbands by the fascist junta, as can be seen in the video linked to in the Saker's latest post.

The whole post is well worth reading. One way of summarizing it is that if you have a war in which one side is fighting for fascism and the other side is fighting for freedom, the side fighting for freedom will be better motivated.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 28 2014 6:43 utc | 41

I'm rather inclined to believe the Ukie forces saw that the Federalists had more or less abandoned the crash site and saw an opportunity to take some territory they otherwise wouldn't have been able to take. Plus - splitting the Federalist forces would be a bonus.

Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 28 2014 6:47 utc | 42

Today's NYT:
Troops Move on Crash Site in Ukraine, Foiling Deal
By ANDREW E. KRAMER and ANDREW HIGGINSJULY 27, 2014

ZUHRES, Ukraine — Just hours after the Malaysian government reached an agreement with Ukrainian separatists on Sunday over access to the crash site of a Malaysian airliner shot down in rebel territory, the Ukrainian military launched an operation to recapture the debris fields, again stalling international efforts to secure the site.
The heavy fighting threatened to torpedo hopes of a breakthrough and cause yet more delays in collecting evidence and retrieving the remaining bodies from the crash. Ukrainian security officials said they needed control over the site to prevent the pro-Russia separatists from destroying clues to the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/28/world/europe/ukraine.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=HpSum&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 28 2014 6:56 utc | 43

Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 28, 2014 2:56:58 AM | 42

It is clear that they have unconditional US and EU backing, much like Israel.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 28 2014 7:17 utc | 44

Ideological and ethnic confussion - Russian Bloomberg reporter held captive by Ukrainians

Posted by: somebody | Jul 28 2014 7:42 utc | 45

#39 colinjames. Today I read that story in the Guardian that described that the those grad missiles were launched from Russia into eastern Ukraine. They showed the satellite photo making that case. What was interesting they showed two figures based on exactly the same same photo images. In one, they drew in the Russian-Ukrainian border showing the launch sites in Russia and the impact sites in Ukraine. In the second figure the Russian-Ukrainian border was different and both the launch and impact sites were in Ukraine.

This means one of the two figures had to be wrong at least. So I looked at google maps to see where the border actually ran. It was clear, just from the shape, that the border shown in the first figure was not congruent with the google maps border. The second figure, showing the launch sites inside Ukraine, displayed a border consistent with Google maps.

I pointed this out in the Guradian's comments to the article Sunday morning. Now more than 12 hours later the story has not been corrected. Without doubt one of the two figures has to be wrong and the one supporting the story's main thesis is the most likely one that is wrong. This is a transparent falsehood. Yet the story remains. This is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of verifiable fact. But the lie remains in place.

Posted by: ToivoS | Jul 28 2014 7:42 utc | 46

have you guys already forgot that ukraine started fire on RUssia killing 2 people? Russia have the right to defend itself.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 28 2014 7:48 utc | 47

Here's PCR on the Pyiat "release" of "proof":
Another State Department Hoax?

Paul Craig Roberts

I have an email that purports to be from the State Department Press Office. It is dated today, Sunday, July 27, 2014 at 8:45 AM EDT

It reads:

State Department Press Corps:

Sharing with you the attached document with DNI images — evidence of Russia firing into Ukraine.

Regards,

State Department Press Office

There is a 1.1MB file attached with pictures and a few words saying that the pictures indicate Russian firing into Ukraine territory.

As one with news and government experience, I am confident that information as important as this purports to be would not be released in this way. For several days reporters have been asking State Department press office spokeswoman Marie Harf for evidence to back her claims that Russian military is attacking Ukrainian forces. Harf has told the reporters that she cannot provide evidence. In other words, Harf’s evidence is like John Kerry’s evidence that he could never provide that Assad had used chemical weapons.

Suddenly the evidence appears in an email and is spread via social media. This is not credible. Such evidence if it actually exists would be released in a Washington press conference by top government officials with experts present to explain the meaning of the photos to the journalists and to answer questions. No real journalists, if any are left, are going to believe that such hot information would be released in an email. Moreover, the photos are meaningless to the uninitiated, and there is no way to judge their authenticity.

Additionally, it is not credible that such important information would be released at a news dead time–8:45 AM EDT on a Sunday morning when the West Coast is still asleep.

What are we to make of this?

One explanation is that kids, unaware of the seriousness of the matter, concocted a hoax for fun.

Another explanation is that unable to substantiate any of its charges against the Russian government, the State Department decided to use social media to spread disinformation in behalf of its propaganda assault on Russia. It was Geoffrey Pyatt, the US Ambassador to Ukraine who posted the images on Twitter. Pyatt was Victoria Nuland’s partner in orchestrating the coup against the Ukrainian government.

As of 5:45PM EDT Sunday, no State Department official of which I am aware has verified that this is a State Department news release. Indeed, email on Sunday morning is such an unprofessional way to release important news that I do not believe even the incompetent Marie Harf could be responsible for releasing information that was valid in this way.

The import of the “news release” is to use social media to build the image of a dangerous Russia among an unsophisticated public independently of having to convince reporters. Once this image is created, Washington can use it to build public support for its purposes, such as more military spending or sending US troops to Ukraine.

In my opinion, it is reckless for Washington to convince Russia that Washington is going to continue to lie in order to discredit Russia in world opinion and to continue to dismiss out of hand Russia’s protests. Washington is conveying to Russia that Washington has launched a very aggressive propaganda campaign against Russia, a campaign that could easily push the world to war.

In my day, if Washington had such information as the email purports to be, Washington would have used the information to defuse the situation. The Russian ambassador would have been called in and asked to explain. The ambassador would understand that he needed to tell the Kremlin to back off or the information would be released in a news conference.

Today, with the Obama regime seeking confrontation with Russia, the regime would have released the information in a press conference with all the important bureau chiefs present. For journalists of my vintage, releasing it in an indiscriminate email targeted to social media would have completely discredited the information.

The UK Daily Mail took the bait, reproducing the images and reported them as official government releases, but the State Department has made no official statement in behalf of the email, instead passing inquiries off to the US embassy in Ukraine. Russian media have skeptically reported the charges, thus helping to spread the propaganda

Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 28 2014 7:51 utc | 48

Ukrainian borders are not demarcated, Kyiv is attempting a unilateral demarcation, which is bound to generate conflict. So depending on how you draw the map, rockets might have been fired from Russia or Ukraine.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 28 2014 8:00 utc | 49

That Russia - Ukraine border issue is another long EU policy fuse now detonating.

The land along the Ukrainian Russian border is culturally and economically integrated. The EU has pressured Ukraine first and foremost to close that border for EU integration - sealing fortress Europe directed against refugees (and Russian legal and illegal merchandise).

To now end security cooperation with Russia (as demonstrated by the sanctioning of secret service personnel) is the height of irresponsibility.

What "the West" is doing now is trying to blackmail Putin into letting the Ukrainian army "win".

Posted by: somebody | Jul 28 2014 8:41 utc | 50

Turkish support for the Syrian opposition demonstrates how a line in the sand separating enemy from friendly territory is enough to sustain an insurgency indefinitely.

And it is this sort of support that the Russians are being punished for via sanctions. I guess it helps when you're in NATO to avoid such measures, even when you reportedly house Al Qaeda bases.

But the federalists have to want it enough themselves. Nothing good can come from direct Russian military intervention in the long run.

Here's a good blog from a guy who doesn't get on with the EU and who covers details of the crash in Ukraine (scroll down for further posts on the issue).

Posted by: Pat Bateman | Jul 28 2014 9:01 utc | 51

Comment under some bizarroworld 'green' Guardian anti-Russian crap:

fairleft

28 July 2014 9:57am

Civilized countries, ones not interested in demonizing and war-mongering, impose sanctions after the most decisive evidence has been collected and analyzed. For example, the black boxes and flight recordings of the MH17. That hasn't happened yet, but somehow we're way down the road and have already upped sanctions against Russia.

Despite its excellent satellite surveillance capabilities, the West hasn't presented any evidence that the Russia-supported eastern Ukraine rebels shot down the MH17. Russia has presented relevant satellite imagery evidence, which is best interpreted as either inconclusive or indicating that the Ukraine government might've shot down the plane.

And then there's the war-monger-disturbing fact that the last time a country, the US, shot down another country's (Iran's) civilian airliner, no sanctions or any other punishment was imposed on the US. It was, after all, an accident.

Posted by: fairleft | Jul 28 2014 9:04 utc | 52

somebody, the "Russian aggression" meme was intended to get the Russians to convince the seperatists to "lose", ie, same ol'same ol' as letting Ukies "win".

I looked at the Pyatt's so-called "map" of the "shelling from Russia", and besides looking cartoonish fabricated from whole cloth on trajectry, it appears to be 'definitive' as it shows impact craters from the shells. But certainly lack of "demarcation" provides ambiguity, I would still side with PCR that this is another false flag.

Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 28 2014 9:10 utc | 53

Washington Post making some sense for a change

If insurgents are pushed out of big cities, the ongoing asymmetric warfare in Donbas that will be fought largely by conventional means is likely to take the form of an underground guerrilla movement. Similar to the PKK in Turkey, ETA in Spain or the IRA in the Northern Ireland, it will rely on sporadic attacks on government and military installations to exhaust the incumbent and damage its governing capacity rather than establish control over a territory. And like Hezbollah in Lebanon or FARC in Colombia, it will rely on outside powers for provision of arms, funds and training. In its new form, guerrilla attacks will likely spill over to other Ukrainian regions, particularly Western Ukraine. According to the latest poll, most Donbas residents (39%) blame radical nationalist organizations for the ongoing conflict, with Western intelligence services being close second (34%).

The calculations of all sides are completely criminal.

I looked at the Pyatt's so-called "map" of the "shelling from Russia", and besides looking cartoonish fabricated from whole cloth on trajectry, it appears to be 'definitive' as it shows impact craters from the shells. But certainly lack of "demarcation" provides ambiguity, I would still side with PCR that this is another false flag.

Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 28, 2014 5:10:10 AM | 53

There is not just a lack of "demarcation" on land there is a lack of "demarcation" of people. It is impossible to distinguish pro-Russian Ukrainian from Russian as by citizenship (could be dual), language or ethnicity. Even uniforms can be put on by any actor. All those maps "prove" is that there has been shelling.

The US is not serious in this accusation. It is another attempt to define Ukraine as opposed to Russia.

It is an attempt to destabilize Russia, too. Putin is between a rock and a hard place in balancing oligarchs' economic - no sanctions - interests - and the political anti-Yeltsin, anti-liberal Russian opposition.

Der Spiegel quoting German Secret Service was quite clear that they count on putting the screws on Russian oligarchs to put pressure on Putin.

I can't see anybody lobbying for a viable solution of the conflict just now.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 28 2014 10:12 utc | 54

I am afraid this means war, no matter what.
Court orders Russia to pay $50bn in Yukos case

Posted by: acrimonious | Jul 28 2014 11:10 utc | 55

Acrimoniois

Why would.it mean war?

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 28 2014 11:18 utc | 56

Its an ill wind that blows no good!
Sanctions against Russia cause share price collapses with a positive effect:
"If the price of the company continues to fall, we can buy back all companies that have been sold off to foreign countries under criminal circumstances during the Yeltsin dictatorship in the next few weeks" said insider from Russian government sources announced, who wished to remain anonymous.
"Finally, the sanctions take effect! Penalties imposed by the U.S. and EU sanctions have caused a fall of $735 billion in the value of all listed Russian companies according to a statement of the racist Hetzmagazins DER SPIEGEL.
After a likewise appended naive falacy that means a loss of $1 trillion compared to other BRICS countries.
The Russians, meanwhile, put on a further fall in prices. "The Russian currency reserves currently stand at almost 480 billion dollars.
If the price of the company continues to fall, we can buy back all companies that have been sold off to foreign countries under criminal circumstances during the Yeltsin dictatorship in the next few weeks" said insider from Russian government sources announced, who wished to remain anonymous.
The revenues from the oil and gas business will then go completely to the Russian state and not to any kleptocrats on the stock exchanges in New York and Frankfurt.... "
http://amr.amronline.de/2014/07/28/sanktionen-wirken-kriegshetzer-verlieren-eine-billion-dollar-den-boersen/

Posted by: brian | Jul 28 2014 11:20 utc | 57

@55

Of which Leonid Nevzlin is entitled to around 70 percent.

Any funds claimed will be shared among the shareholders. The biggest ultimate beneficial owner is Russian-born Leonid Nevzlin, a business partner who had fled to Israel to avoid prosecution. He has a stake of around 70 percent

I suppose Nevzlin is welcome to try to collect the money in Moscow any time he likes..

Posted by: Pat Bateman | Jul 28 2014 11:46 utc | 58

Yukos: surprise surprise, Netherlands right after Boeing crash ended long arbitration against Russia, and ordered to pay $50 billion in damages and $65 billion in legal costs. Talk about bias and next stage of financial war against Russia.

This reminds me of what US does to Iran, declares it guilty, and then orders it to pay . Since Iran obviously doesnt obey fake trials, US confiscates all Iran's assets it can get its hands on.

Posted by: Harry | Jul 28 2014 11:52 utc | 59

By not collecting both black boxes, decoding them and publishing everything Russia made a move that strongly underestimated the lack of honesty from the western press and polical circles.

The fact that the evidence here (black boxes) provided by the accused (Ukr Federalists) to the accusers (UK,US,Ukr...) would imply some way of innocense never made it to western presstitute media. Obvious questions like the change of flight route, the presence of fighter planes or the confiscation of flight recorders are never touched or twisted by the western ministry of desinformation.

In 1986, a US war ship in Iranian territorial waters shot down an Iranian passanger plane killing everyone on board. They lied there way through the whole process and the CIA was able to collect the black boxes. The acknowledment of the event came years later at a moment when it didn't matter anymore and when nobody was listening.

Posted by: ctr | Jul 28 2014 12:03 utc | 60

@Harry | Jul 28, 2014 7:52:17 AM
What?
You would doubt the honesty of the arbitrating judges?

Posted by: acrimonious | Jul 28 2014 12:15 utc | 61

Russian media say the images are fake.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 28 2014 12:21 utc | 62

ITAR-TASS ‏@itass_en 14m
Pictures placed by US ambassador on Twitter fakes http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/742595

Posted by: brian | Jul 28 2014 12:57 utc | 63

and so it begins..corrupt eurotrash

Alexander Smith ‏@AlexMurraySmith 2h
...seems to leave two conclusions: Andriy Lysenko is lying or the #MH17 data was leaked from the Dutch Safety Board to Ukraine.
Expand Reply Retweet Favorite More
Retweeted by Russian Market
Alexander Smith ‏@AlexMurraySmith 2h
Dutch say they don't know where Ukraine got its info from on #MH17 black boxes; haven't shared findings and boxes not analysed before AAIB.

Posted by: brian | Jul 28 2014 13:12 utc | 64

Here from the PCA site:

News

The arbitrations were commenced in 2005 by the former shareholders Hulley Enterprises Limited (Cyprus), Yukos Universal Limited (Isle of Man) and Veteran Petroleum Limited (Cyprus) (“Claimants”).   

By agreement of the parties, the cases were heard together before identical arbitral tribunals. The arbitral tribunals were composed of The Hon. L. Yves Fortier PC CC OQ QC of Canada (as Chairman), Dr. Charles Poncet of Switzerland, and Judge Stephen M. Schwebel of the United States of America.  

Posted by: Fran | Jul 28 2014 13:25 utc | 65

@60 At this point, the Russians may not care. The reaction has demonstrated the West is popuoated by deranged mad men. The Chinese know whatever the Russians know. The Chinese are holding surprise naval drills while the NATO project in Libya is back in the news. Obama might not be bright enough to get the message, but the Chinese who own our factories are screwing with us in direct support of their ally at a time when previous U.S./NATO operations and the thuggery of the 51st state are hitting the news.

I would just be keeping a list of names and when Western companies want to deal with Russia or China, I imagine they will be reminded of European behavior.

Posted by: NotTimothyGeithner | Jul 28 2014 13:48 utc | 66

using aircraft as human shields??!!
'Or is it because every eyewitness interviewed by the BBC team specifically indicated the presence of a Ukrainian military aircraft right beside the Malaysian Airlines Boeing MH17 at the time that it was shot down?

Or is it because of eyewitness accounts confirming that the Ukrainian air force regularly used civilian aircraft flying over Novorossiya as human shields to protect its military aircraft conducting strikes against the civilian population from the Militia’s anti-aircraft units?'
http://www.globalresearch.ca/deleted-bbc-report-ukrainian-fighter-jet-shot-down-mhi7-donetsk-eyewitnesses/5393631

Posted by: brian | Jul 28 2014 14:02 utc | 67

As I said before, the Ukrofascists are actually more crazy than the original Nazis. Demian at 35.

Oh yes. But they are different, and in a contemporary international context, and their main problems is that ‘they’ are not a Large Nation that is soldered but a rather small loose coalition of ppl in a ‘failed state’ outpost stuck between two major powers: vulnerable, and asking, begging, manipulating for allies and ‘aid’ - economic, military, ressources, from all sides. (The West should give arms, matériel, send troops, Russia has to step up to the plate, etc.)

Totally nuts, yes, but partly as merely exposed to the light of day from what was previously a precarious yet locally held status quo that was not revealed in the media. All of which spurs extremism.

I don’t see the idea of a false flag op. (one interpretation) of downing a commercial plane as originating with them. Simply, ops. like Odessa are their style,— but beyond manipulating ppl outside of corruption and Mafia-like practices is a new scene for these oligarchs (and pol hangers on), who are used to individual control, corruption and sadistic personal violence but don’t have much clue about larger scope of information circuits, international politics, etc. not to mention technology and planes and all around that.

So imho the usual suspects convinced them easily. With no potential cost to the usual suspects, they can turn the news around on a dime: Rogue Ukrainians shot down MH17 by mistake! (This meme is already partly on stage) .. So now back to biz as usual. Nothing to see here. Too sad though.

OK, one pov amongst multiples, I’m not attached to it.

The Kiev coup Gvmt has collapsed, possibly partly due to MH17. Yats quit because UDAR, Svoboda and Fatherland could not support the IMF package and strictures. Thus, he quit for the same reason that forced (after Maidan, etc.) Yakunovitch to flee. Parliament and others could not accept the IMF terms / conditions, so Yanuk. turned to Russia. In Yats’ position, that is no longer possible.

These parties also refused to split Naftogaz (State gas co.) in two and in effect to sell off 49% to EU and US cos, although a first reading of the bill received a ‘pass.’ Naftogaz is so deeply in debt that even the IMF says that (under its conditions, unlikely to be realised) it would be ‘healthy’ in 2018, they always do those ‘soft’ projections. (> Greece for ex.)

Naftogaz owes Russia something like 5 billion dollars (or more? idk.) Nobody wants to pay for that. In short, reliance and co-opting hyper-nationalists on the ground has not turned out well for the ‘West’. And a horrific disgusting false flag, the most likely description, is not doing much better.. revanchist blaming, sanctioning of Russia for failure in the Ukraine!

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 28 2014 14:49 utc | 68

After letting people drown in the Mediterranean for months, the Europeans are going to discover that fuel raffineries on fire are dangerous
http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/2/8/107266/World/Region/nd-Tripoli-fuel-depot-ablaze,-in-very-dangerous-tu.aspx

Posted by: Mina | Jul 28 2014 14:51 utc | 69

Dutch investigators dont like Ukraine junta's accusations.
http://rt.com/news/176136-mh17-crash-rocket-ukraine/

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 28 2014 15:18 utc | 70

The Kiev coup Gvmt has collapsed, possibly partly due to MH17.

Not sure about that - Yats resigned it seems to trigger elections that will lead to the removal of the recalcitrant mps - so they can get the sell off started. Remember, Biden's son is on the board of the gas company and Daddy I am sure expects things to happen.

Posted by: tgs | Jul 28 2014 16:27 utc | 71

tbs at 71. Quite so or yes in part, but replacements and disturbances are bad news for outside controllers or investors and their local stooges.

All is supposed to be smooth, everyone is supposed to toe the line, no opposition allowed. When that breaks down (partly thru outside interference itself!) everyone is dismayed, long-term plans are shattered, and personal interests take a huge hit as uncertainty sets in and partnership control collapses.

So there will be new elections and a new Gvmt.? Then what? Who now has to spend money on lobbying new figures who control...exactly what and how? Moreover in a country in the grip of civil war? Will the newbies be better, different, more pliable, that the older version? And if so, what is the risk of revolution or all out civil war and total break down that stops one even baking a bun and selling it?

How long can we put up with this crap? is no doubt a common thought.

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 28 2014 16:54 utc | 72

sorry, not tbs as i posted, but tgs.

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 28 2014 16:59 utc | 73

If, as I suspect, Kiev/Ukie forces shot down the plane and then bald-faced lied to the United States (and the world) and the United States "decided" to be largely hands-off to allow "plausible deniability" if the ruse unravelled (they lied to me!!!), this would mean that Kiev likely has serious leverage with a Washington eager (desperate) to avoid Benghazi II. (Damned if they, damned if they don't -- but McCain is unlikely to be any more interested in "the truth" in the Ukraine than he was wrt to the securing of Libyan arms by that Benghazi CIA outpost).
The Benghazi coverup was much more about "optics" -- trying to avoid attention paid to the unrest in Libya (being cited as the most perfect little war (humanitarian intervention) since Bosnia). The Ukrainian "regime change" has played out very badly -- so blaming Putin and the insurgency has provided a subtefuge behind which "the financial realities" can play out. I suspect the pressure on Khodorkovsky must be extreme, however, the American press (who really wanted to make a hero out of Khodorkovsky)tends to ignore how desperately unpopular he and the other oligarchs are with the Russian people.
Kiev needs American support, no matter how unenthusiastic it might be, and the United States would really like to avoid recognition of what appears to be an evolving failure. When "damning revelations" eventually arrive (probably after November midterms), Team Obama will not look good as America discovers it was once again told a reassuring but false "the system worked" fairly tale about the Ukrainian "victory."

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 28 2014 17:31 utc | 74

@74 susan - this video that was put up on sakers site yesterday confirms the last part of your post.. as seen thru the eyes of many ukrainians they are very unhappy with the recent developments on a number of levels..

Posted by: james | Jul 28 2014 17:42 utc | 75

artnetnews is reporting that Donbass resistance fighters are raiding Museums for arms. There is nothing new about this but it does put the US State Department claims that Russia ids supplying weapons into perspective: it is utterly and completely false.


"Ukrainian separatists snatched up a new set of weapons for their arsenal last week. But, this time at least, Russia is far from blame. Rebels in the town of Donetsk took a World War Two-era T-54 tank and two Howitzer artillery pieces straight out of the city’s museum commemorating the Second World War, according to an AFP report.

"Speaking to the news agency on the condition of anonymity, the guard working at the museum when the rebels waltzed in said, “They had written authorization to take them away.” Who gave said permission, nevermind would even have official authority over the museum collections in the separatist-held city, remains unclear.

"The guard said that the rebels loaded the tank and weapons into a large truck, adding that, “They took the tank that was least damaged.” It’s doubtful that that tank and the Howitzers are in working order after not having been used operationally for decades. However, the guard said, “I think they’re going to use them to fight......”

Posted by: bevin | Jul 28 2014 17:56 utc | 76

@76 They (the people orchestrating this attack on Russia) are trying to have it both ways. On the one hand the separatists are a ragtag bunch of drunks desperate for weapons. On the other hand they are well equipped and well organized by Putin. They should make up their minds.

Posted by: dh | Jul 28 2014 18:09 utc | 77

@58 59

http://pennyforyourthoughts2.blogspot.com/2013/12/khordokovsky-he-is-free-but-his-money.html


Flashback time: December 2010- Mikhail Khodorkovsky & Platon Lebedev found guilty of embezzlement.


“In 2003, when Khodorkovsky was arrested, he signed over all his shares in Yukos, to one Jacob Rothschild, of the Rothschild banker and Oil family.

   

The Rothschilds have financed oil exploration in Russia since the Tsarist period, while Lord Rothschild has close connections with Yukos.”

If all the top Yukos managers were unable to carry out the role, Lord Rothschild would take over, the company official told Kommersant on condition of anonymity”

There are two viable links contained in the above relinked post.  BBC and Washington Times- Read them, cos I am not making this stuff up.

Khodorkovsky signed over all his shares in Yukos to Jacob Rothschild.

The money is now under the control of Dutch foundations, run by boards known by the benign, if Kafkaesque(?), term of "benevolent interveners (I was thinking Orwellian myself)
Doesn't seem to be much benevolence in this intervention


There is little doubt that Mr. Khodorkovsky still has tens of millions of dollars in other investments. (notice how we have gone from billions to tens of millions?)He is not going to go hungry. In a news conference after his release, he said he had “enough money to make a living.” Striking a philosophical note, he also said he was certainly better off than most of his fellow convicts.


But that is a pittance compared with what could still be his personal stake in what is left of Yukos, once one of the world’s largest oil companies, now bankrupt. There may be as much as $920 million from the sale of the company’s overseas assets, but it is locked up in the Dutch foundations.

Control of these legal entities, called stichtings in Dutch law, is in the hands of independent boards not beholden even to the beneficiaries, possibly including Mr. Khodorkovsky.

The boards are wholly autonomous, run by lawyers and former oil company executives who have found a second career in the corporate afterlife of Yukos.


This legal entity called stichtings run by lawyers and former oil company executives?


If all the top Yukos managers were unable to carry out the role, Lord Rothschild would take over, the company

If there are no "former" oil company executives and all shares were taken over by Lord Rothschild, who controls this stichting?

It would seem to be a Rothschild controlled enterprise, no?"

Posted by: Priceless | Jul 28 2014 18:32 utc | 78

Yukos is no more ... the holding company (GML) won ... I can't find much about who is party to the holding company ... but they estimate that another 10 years of legal wrangling is likely.
http://washpost.bloomberg.com/Story?docId=1376-N99VQF6JTSEC01-0IEV4FL0OPKLBNP492NF1172D2

Khodorkovsky, who’s living in Switzerland, said he isn’t entitled to any part of the damages because he transferred his Yukos stake to fellow shareholder Leonid Nevzlin to protect the company when he became a target of the Russian courts.
Nevzlin is the beneficial owner of about 70 percent of GML, while four other partners -- Platon Lebedev, Mikhail Brudno, Vladimir Dubov and Vasily Shakhnovsky -- each have a about 7.5 percent. GML used to own 60 percent of Yukos.

This is likely of greater significance:
The decision risks dragging Russia’s two biggest corporations by market value, oil producer OAO Rosneft and natural gas exporter OAO Gazprom, into extended legal wrangling. The state-run companies may be targeted because they were beneficiaries of expropriated Yukos assets, said another GML lawyer, Yas Banifatemi. Rosneft and Gazprom both declined about 3 percent in Moscow trading, before paring losses.
Putin’s government dismantled Yukos in 2004 to 2007 over $27 billion in tax charges after imprisoning Chief Executive Officer Mikhail Khodorkovsky. The former owner, who isn’t party to the award, said in a statement today that it was “fantastic that the company shareholders are being given a chance to recover their damages.”

Where there are legal proceedings, there is disclosure. If anyone believes that the escalating charges against Khodorkovsky were not Putin at his most despotic and over-reaching, and even petty, I haven't found them, although punishing the oligarchs -- by whatever means necessary -- appears to play well in much of Russia ...

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 28 2014 18:55 utc | 79

Nevzlin is the beneficial owner of about 70 percent of GML, while four other partners -- Platon Lebedev, Mikhail Brudno, Vladimir Dubov and Vasily Shakhnovsky -- each have a about 7.5 percent. GML used to own 60 percent of Yukos.

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 28, 2014 2:55:38 PM | 79

Well given what we already know, regarding Yukos and the Rothshilds, I think an intelligent person might have to conclude that

  • Nevzlin
  • Platon Lebedev,
  • Mikhail Brudno,
  • Vladimir Dubov and
  • Vasily Shakhnovsky

are, at least when it comes to Yukos, all nothing but mere frontmen for the Rothschilds then

Other not-so intelligent peeps will of course, as usual, conclude something else entirely from that info

Posted by: Priceless | Jul 28 2014 19:07 utc | 80


"If all the top Yukos managers were unable to carry out the role, Lord Rothschild would take over, the company official told Kommersant on condition of anonymity”

Posted by: Priceless | Jul 28 2014 19:08 utc | 81

Germany cant stop its sanctions and hatred of Russia
http://presstv.com/detail/2014/07/28/373156/germany-japan-welcome-russia-bans/

Will Germany be part of WW1 WW2 and soon WW3?

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 28 2014 19:11 utc | 82

worth a peekaboo

Naked Capitalism: 07/28/2013/Yves Smith: More Signs of Doubt in Europe About the Costs of Siding With Ukraine.

yikes!

The IMF demanded an increase of up to 40 percent in residential gas rates by May 2015. The rates will go up 20 percent every year until Naftogaz Ukraine’s gas debt has been paid.
and more hard numbers ... loved this
OilPrice also reminds its readers that Ukraine is likely to start syphoning off Russian gas destined for Europe. The OilPrice article basically urges Ukraine to man up and accept the harsh terms of IMF assistance, but given that the country was already high on global corruption rankings even before the crisis broke out, and an IMF loan will come with stringent terms, it’s not clear that any government that agreed to them would last very long. In other words, stealing looks like the obvious choice for Ukraine, particularly if they can claim it was really “losses” due to separatists targeting pipelines.

It's like 11-dimensional chess of something ...

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 28 2014 19:46 utc | 83

actually, coldn, you are partly correct.. On one level - the official level this is an internecine feud between capitalist powers. That doesn't mean that one side - the US side isn't more wrong than the other. It was the US and their patsy, the EU-centric liberal right wing of the German govt. that created this entire problem which Capitalist Russia has been reacting to. If the US and Germany had not backed a violent overthrow of the Ukraine we would not be here. The US has vigorously backed and propped up in power some of the worst, most degenerate groups in Europe - Svoboda and Right Sector. Germany supported another one, Udar, which naturally hasn't fared as "well" as the US pet stooges. The moral and ethical problems that grew out this mostly US created disaster can be separated from the goals and schemes of both major factions, Russia and the US. Of course the people of Novorussyia have the right to self determination, to self govt. and freedom from persecution based on ethnic cultural and historical bigotries, as do people everywhere, even if that mean leaving a political construct they had no part in creating and which aggressively ignores and abuses these interests and rights. While that does not mean Russia is entirely interested in helping them uphold these basic human rights the US is aggressively (and illegally for what that's worth) persecuting these people, abusing and seeking to deny their human rights, directly and through its proxy govt. in Kiev.

Posted by: Marc | Jul 28 2014 20:08 utc | 84

The NYT decided to put Eastern Ukraine civilian casualties on it's front page ...

NYT: Enmity and Civilian Toll Rise in Ukraine as World’s Attention Is Diverted.

They suggest that the after effects wrt ongoing resentments of victims and the targetted civilian population will be long-standing and destabilizing

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 28 2014 21:04 utc | 85

This is a good development, these persons are professionals, not to be influenced by European politics … at least I think so!

Eurojust coordination meeting: investigations into Flight MH17

Posted by: Oui | Jul 28 2014 21:15 utc | 86

@Oui #86:

I think it's a bad sign that Russia wasn't invited to participate, given that it has publicly disclosed more reliable information about the crash than anyone else, and passed that information on to several European countries.

I was sure that Russia would be involved in the "international investigation", given how close the crash site is to its border.

These people might be professionals, but they will be under tremendous pressure.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 28 2014 21:31 utc | 87

Perhaps the MSM stories of Kyev gains in eastern Ukraine have been over-stated.

Jul 4
Ukraine's newly-appointed defence minster has pledged to to retake Crimea from Russian control promising a victory parade in the key city of Sevastopol. The parliament in Kiev erupted with cheers following the remark made by Colonel General Valeriy Heletey, 46, a former policeman who previously headed the state's VIP bodyguard service.

Jul 28
Secretary Hagel spoke today by phone with Ukraine's new Minister of Defense, Valeriy Heletey. The secretary congratulated Minister Heletey on his appointment and asked for his assessment of developments in Ukraine. Minister Heletey conveyed that despite steady progress by the Ukrainian military , the situation in eastern Ukraine continues to worsen. Minister Heletey expressed his nation's interest in additional security assistance from the United States. Secretary Hagel assured him that the U.S. government will continue to review all such requests within a broad interagency process, beginning with discussions through our embassy in Kyiv.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 28 2014 21:47 utc | 88

July 28, 2014
At 4:15 PM, the Vice President will meet with Foreign Minister Pavlo Klimkin of Ukraine. This meeting at the White House is closed press.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 28 2014 22:05 utc | 89

The US is (properly) worried, and is stepping up the propaganda.

Russian Troops, Equipment Mass Along Ukraine Border
By Jim Garamone
DoD News, Defense Media Activity
WASHINGTON, July 28, 2014 – Russian troops continue to mass along the border with Ukraine, and heavy and sophisticated Russian equipment continue to flow across the border to Russian-backed Ukrainian separatists, Pentagon spokesman Army Col. Steve Warren said today.

Around 12,000 Russian combat troops remain along Ukraine’s southern and eastern borders, the colonel told reporters at the Pentagon, noting that Russian equipment crosses the border into Ukraine with impunity.

“I can tell you that last week we saw a column of over 100 Russian vehicles moving into Ukraine,” Warren said. “That’s the largest one we’ve seen. It is a substantial enough number that is a great concern to us.”

Heavy and sophisticated equipment requires trained personnel, he said. “What we’ve seen that most concerns us is in southern Russia, Ukrainian separatists participating in training activities … around Rostov,” he added. “This indicates that Russia is, in fact, training these separatists on how to fight, how to operate equipment [and] how to conduct operations in Ukraine.”

[OMG -- I wonder where they got that idea! Payback is a bitch.]

More equipment could be quickly moved in to Ukraine, the colonel said. “What the Russians do is posture equipment along the border … in such a way that it can move at any time,” Warren said.

Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 28 2014 22:10 utc | 90

@Don Bacon #90:

I hope that Col. Warren is speaking the truth. I just read an interview with a rebel commander who said that the main thing the rebels need is much more heavy equipment.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 28 2014 22:18 utc | 91

This is interesting... The video is apparently a month old. I think it provides a better explanation of the Ukrainian fighter in proximity. Just as Kyiv is using the wreck site as a tactical asset, they possibly use civilian planes as decoys. Apologies if this has already been posted.

http://youtu.be/aKKoKmUtQXE

Posted by: chuckvw | Jul 28 2014 23:14 utc | 92

@85 If it's in the NYT, Team Blue, maybe even the White House, might be getting antsy about their new pals.

Posted by: NotTimothyGeithner | Jul 29 2014 0:17 utc | 93

Well, now I know where the junta gets its recruits from: it forcibly rounds them up like cattle.

Ukraine Crisis: Death and destruction continues in Eastern Ukraine
(82 min. video with English subtitles)

I'm sure Frontline, American PBS's public affairs show, already has this scheduled for broadcast.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 29 2014 0:18 utc | 94

Man, the US is really dealing the fucking nonsense non-stop these days. Someone bucking for a promotion?

On the heels of the MH17 disaster, the Yukos ruling, sundry other war crimes in Ukraine, etc etc now the US says that Russia has also violated a nuclear arms treaty.

Oh, yeah and Putin slept with your wife, too.

Fucking embarrassing.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 29 2014 1:42 utc | 95

There's the possibility that the MH17 affair is a conspiracy at the highest levels between Moscow and Washington.

There can be no doubt that at the Pentagon and CIA the downing of a commercial airliner by a SAM has been a feature of their wargame models. Advance SAM systems are a blight upon air superiority, which both the Russian and Americans possess. It will strike any independent observer, even without the benefit of hindsight, that it's ludicrous to fly airliners through combat zones where both sides have the potential capability to down them by accident or design.

Russia and the US have broadly cooperated against asymetric threats since 9/11 and this maybe an attempt at controlling the proliferation of anti-air systems and introducing rational energy policy when the US government isn't able to.

Posted by: Ralph Walter Reed | Jul 29 2014 1:49 utc | 96

And so, it came to pass (in the local msm) that the months of milking the MH370 has now passed to months of milking MH17 as the 'story' is about the "struggle to reach the site". Yawn, and no questioning why Poroshenko does not respect a cease fire etc. By the time they find the facts it'll be a dead story which is exactly what they now want seeing it can't be pinned on the Federalists.

I'd be bold enough to suggest that perhaps Putin could now parachute in a ring of steel around the site to protect the protectors of the investigators. Polite 'men in green' peace keepers on the edge of the classified site protecting the Aussies protecting the Dutch by holding back Poroshenko's forces until the job is done etc. Who could complain? Putin's men would leave when Abbott's men leave when the Dutchmen leave. Check, at least ... if not exactly 'mate' just yet!

Posted by: xyz | Jul 29 2014 3:23 utc | 97

@xyz #97:

it can't be pinned on the Federalists.

If you watch the video I linked to at #94, you'd know that the Novorossiyan people are way past federalism.

BTW, that video doesn't have any narration, and appears to be assembled from short videos that got posted on YouTube. I think it's well worth for everyone to watch, and to recommend to other people. It has interviews with Ukrainians, both from Kiev and from Donbass; other than that, it has a lot of dead bodies torn apart by the junta's bombs, with the full support of the Empire. Not a single rebel appears in the video.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 29 2014 4:00 utc | 98

95) This here is a functioning link.

All bets are off now. I am beginning to think Paul Craig Roberts is right - the US are working on the assumption they can win a nuclear war.

The sudden European uniformity on sanctions can be explained that way. They hope they can avoid the worst - hot war - that way.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 29 2014 4:07 utc | 99

@somebody #99:

Honestly, I think that Germany and France joining Russia in making a public announcement that Washington and Kiev were responsible for the downing of MH17 would be a more effective way of stopping a hot war.

I think that what is driving USG behavior is not the assumption that they can win a nuclear war – American elites are not crazy, just demonic (to use a favorite concept over at the Saker), but an ever increasing desperation that no matter what the Empire throws at Russia, it still does not back down.

This is a cornered, wounded animal blindly thrusting at its perceived threat, not the White House and the Pentagon having coolly decided that it is in the best interests of the United States to have a nuclear war with Russia right now.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 29 2014 4:29 utc | 100

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