Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 19, 2014

Ukraine: Financial Rating Propaganda Likely To Fail

International credit rating agencies like S&P are nothing but political instruments. Consider this from July 11:

Ukraine had its credit-rating outlook raised to stable from negative by Standard & Poor’s after the country obtained a $17 billion bailout loan from the International Monetary Fund.
...
“Full disbursement of the IMF program and related multilateral lending should enable Ukraine to meet its external financing needs over the next year,” S&P analysts said in an e-mailed statement.

Now compare that with a real world report from July 17:

The IMF now expects Ukraine's economy to shrink by 6.5% this year, compared with 5% at the time the emergency loans were agreed. GDP stagnated last year.

Ukraine's government is spending more than expected on security as it battles the separatists. Having lost control of parts of the country, revenue collection is also falling behind schedule.

And state gas firm Naftogaz is struggling to force customers to pay their debts.
...
"The program hinges crucially on the assumption that the conflict will begin to subside in the coming months," the IMF said. "A significant prolongation of the crisis would seriously strain their ability to [reform the economy] without a substantial increase in external support on adequate terms."

The IMF more explicitly formulated: "Expect more of your money being wasted on the Nazis in Kiev."

Fortunately, after the rating disaster of mortgage bonds and derivatives that led to the financial crisis, smart real world investors have become mostly immune of the rating companies' nonsense, diminishing their influence further into the pure propaganda territory. From the last lines of first piece:

Global bond yields showed investors ignored 56 percent of Moody’s and 50 percent of S&P’s rating and outlook changes in 2012, more often disagreeing when the companies said governments were becoming safer or more risky, data compiled by Bloomberg show.

The S&P propaganda effort will therefore likely fail.

Posted by b on July 19, 2014 at 19:48 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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The conflict may well subside in a few months, but the result might be an independent Novorossiya.

Posted by: Jon Lester | Jul 19 2014 19:57 utc | 1

b quote "International credit rating agencies like S&P are nothing but political instruments"

that is very true.. financial propaganda, as opposed to other types of propaganda.. what do you think of the new development bank created by BRICS?

Posted by: james | Jul 19 2014 20:01 utc | 2

While we wait for b's take on the new BRICS development bank, I can tell you that other Americans I've talked to don't seem to appreciate its significance, and I think that's because they're forgetting that two of the member states are net energy exporters, as are Venezuela and a few other countries that may sign on. Most people here just don't see that the US dollar is in serious trouble, so of course they're not prepared for it, either.

Posted by: Jon Lester | Jul 19 2014 20:33 utc | 3

@3 jon - as i see it, one of the main reasons for war is money.. some might say it's the only reason! i think the increase in tension on the war front has a direct relation to these developments.. people are going to wake up to this soon enough, if they haven't already.. the clock is ticking down while the bogus army of ISIS is allowed to pillage and destabilize what it can as this same clock ticks down..

Posted by: james | Jul 19 2014 20:47 utc | 4

ukraine is a fcken joke, a neofacist country falling in part and led by a chocolate producing billionare!

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 19 2014 20:51 utc | 5

“International credit rating agencies like S&P are nothing but political instruments”

No kidding!?

Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 19 2014 21:08 utc | 6

Moody's and S&P Have been completely exposed as merely a part of the apparatus of extortion of the finance capital empire. Completely politicized, lacking any independent credibility, just more weaponized, privately owned and operated - pseudo governmental agencies.

Posted by: Marc | Jul 19 2014 21:17 utc | 7

How much is the Russian government paying you for your propaganda?

As someone who has lived in Ukraine and has close ties to it, I can say unequivocally that your posts are obfuscations and outright lies about the situation on the ground over there.

These lies and propaganda are so obvious that I do believe you should be up front with your readers and tell them how much the Russian government is paying you.

Gonzalo Lira

Posted by: Gonzalo Lira | Jul 19 2014 21:25 utc | 8

@ gonzo Lira @ 8

that's an apt moniker you have there given the subject. No propaganda here, just wondering how a massively indebted nation Like Ukraine in the middle of a civil war gets its credit rating RAISED not, lowered for taking on more debt...seems funny to us, and no doubt, its just another crooked political maneuver by another crooked, imperialist, finance capital book-cooking outfit

Posted by: Marc | Jul 19 2014 21:47 utc | 9

As Polish, I'm seriously wondering if it wouldn't be the best to reclaim Lviv and Carpathian Mts while they are standing still yet.

Ukraine is damned. It's gonna be Europe's Somalia soon. Beware of Black Sea 3.14rates.

Posted by: with love from Poland | Jul 19 2014 21:49 utc | 10

If Poland wishes to invade Ukraine then they should expect to come face-to-face with heavily armed Jobbik fascists in the Carpathian Mountains.

Posted by: Peter Pan | Jul 19 2014 22:00 utc | 11

@ peter pan @ 11

waiting there to claim that lot for Hungary ?

Posted by: Marc | Jul 19 2014 22:23 utc | 12

@ 10,11,12

Interesting.Im sure there will be nothing left of Ukraine in 10 years but some rump state between the west bank of the Dnieper and the Carpathian mnts..

Posted by: Marc | Jul 19 2014 22:24 utc | 13

speaking of propaganda with regard to ukraine and etc..
cannonfire has a good article up here

Posted by: james | Jul 19 2014 22:34 utc | 14

@with love from Poland #10:

I'm not sure what you mean by "standing still yet": a social implosion has not yet occurred?

From the very beginning with the breakup of the USSR, it was clear to anyone with any knowledge of the region that the project of a "Ukrainian nation" was dubious at best. It is an artifact of Soviet rule of Russia, with its borders arbitrarily drawn up by Stalin and Khrushchev, with no thought given to regional differences in terms of the ethnicity and culture of the inhabitants. Clearly, the only reason that "the territorial integrity of Ukraine must be preserved" has become a mantra of the West is that the Ukraine, with its current unabashedly fascist and racist regime, is a major problem for Russia, which is a main impediment to US full spectrum dominance.

I don't think that one should fear that the MH17 black flag op is going to be enough to make the Novorossiyan independence movement fail. Once Novorossiya, which will be more than just Donetsk and Lugansk, breaks away from Ukieland, Poland should certainly start talking about reclaiming the regions you mention. Alternatively, Poland and Russia agreeing to partition the former Ukraine between themselves would doubtless serve as an excellent basis for improving Polish-Russian relations, and would help Poland overcome its main current problem, which is being a pawn of the Empire.

To get back to MH17, it will be interesting to see how the "investigation" and its reception pan out. As the Saker wrote here, it is likely that the USG, Russia, and Germany already know who was responsible for the downing of MH17. His main worry is that the Russian military is extremely reluctant to disclose intelligence that it has obtained.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 19 2014 22:36 utc | 15

@15

Once all that happens, and it just might, Moldova and Romania should seriously consider what to do about the region around Chernivtsi, which is home to many people whose first language is Romanian. I know they haven't had the resources to reunify before, despite the fears of Transdnistrian separatists (because wealthy West Germany almost went broke reunifying with East Germany), but they should at least break from EU groupthink and make their voices heard.

Posted by: Jon Lester | Jul 19 2014 23:02 utc | 16

Clearly, the only reason that "the territorial integrity of Ukraine must be preserved" has become a mantra of the West is that the Ukraine, with its current unabashedly fascist and racist regime, is a major problem for Russia, which is a main impediment to US full spectrum dominance.

If Ukraine ruling Kleptocracy is a fascistic than the Russian one are no less fascist. With what countries the Russian like to see themselves with? Apparently establishment of both countries are competing with the West in game called "Who Is the Biggest Fascists". It seems that today's Russia, as the major victor country from WWII, like to being seeing as the guardian of anti-nazism while accepting all tenets of western-liberalism and the nation states which are fundaments of fascism.

So, whom the lawmakers like to compares with?

«The only way to fight against this like civilized countries do, namely the US and the EU. We should use precision weapons, like Israel, to destroy those who fired this shell [on Russia’s Donetsk]," the lawmaker said.

With "civilized countries" such as Israel?

Sorry Demian quite an idiotic comment.

Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 19 2014 23:18 utc | 17

“Decision theory in economics ... is concerned with identifying the values, uncertainties and other issues relevant in a given decision, its rationality, and the resulting optimal decision. It is closely related to the field of game theory ...” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_theory”>Wikipedia, 2014) --interactions of variables are influenced by agents to effect the desired outcome.

“Given that people aren’t rational Bayesian expected utility-theory decision makers, what do economists think that they are doing modeling markets as if they are populated by agents …” (http://equitablegrowth.org/person/brad-delong/”>Brad DeLong, 2014) .

They are not. They know that human beings are not utility-theory decision makers and are fundamentally driven by emotions rooted in desires. Stimuli is manufactured (media) based upon economic necessities and dictates. We share a culture that is carefully crafted in a series of stimulus that evokes predictable reactions for a desired outcome.

I flash a cold glass of water on a hot day and you buy a Coke! Oil stock are falling, I blow up a pipeline. Need to save the Ukrainian army from total destruction, blow up European airliner!

Question? Knowing that facts and reason are not the central tools of such a system, why do we spend so much time arguing on such irrelevancies as to what the truth of a political or economic matter is? By the time we hash it out, the world has moved on to the next crisis and forgotten about last weeks.

Do we think we are affecting a different outcome? I see this method similar to bringing a knife to a gun fight! I mean the entire system is based on puppets on a string --“Leave the gun, take the cannolies.” (Clemenza, 1972)

Militarists, economists, behaviorists, et al., manufacture emotional stimulus for individuals to follow expected-utility decision theories they create to compensate for our cognitive biases, or for that matter, democratic processes. Truth appears to be a sub genera and a buggy whip!

The question is, what methods, aside from irrelevant facts, can be used, not to change an individual's mind on a specific issue, but like an ocean liner, slightly alter their course toward balance in context to all issues –as they are all interconnected? The Petrodollar, Gaza, Iraq, Syria and Ukraine are one and the same issue and struggle … Surely, facts did not alter the avalanche of events that followed 9-11. Therefore, why do we think that the facts will alter the outcome of Ukraine's economic future?

Posted by: HAHA | Jul 19 2014 23:27 utc | 18

@neretva'43 #17:

Why don't you just go all the way and join Hillary Clinton in calling Putin Hitler? You certainly don't understand the Ukraine (it's "the Ukraine"; omitting the definite article is the fascist practice, so you gave yourself away) or Russia any better than she does.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 19 2014 23:37 utc | 19

@15 "...it was clear to anyone with any knowledge of the region...It is an artifact of Soviet rule of Russia, with its borders arbitrarily drawn up by Stalin and Khrushchev, with no thought given to regional differences in terms of the ethnicity and culture of the inhabitants"

Not clear. It is impossible to obtain "knowlege of the region". Today's manipulation of the media with Putin as the new Stalin is proof. We know Putin is being smeared; ah, but when it comes to that ogre, Stalin, that was all justified, because...Wrong, the voices which lie to us today are the ones that have been lying all along. Go look up the Holdomar: page after page of voices crying the "unknown Holocaust!" Yeah, right, unknown.

Posted by: ruralito | Jul 19 2014 23:40 utc | 20

Just as I've said quite idiotic comment(s).

Yes, Clinton(s) and Putin(s) are two side of same coin: liberal-chauvinist one. They represent a national oligarchy of countries that they represent. Difference is only in "taste" that observers prefers. While I agree there is no bigger villains, murderers and sociopath than Americans are, I believe that Russian would do same thing if they have a chance. That is just nature of the White Man and matter of opportunity.

Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 19 2014 23:49 utc | 21

Sure, S and P is just doing what capital wants. If it didn't it would be out of business.
But what it is saying, essentially, is that those who invest in Ukrainian Bonds will collect their interest on time.
That usually means that the rating agency believes that the economy is in good shape. But it can also mean that the government can be counted on to prioritise bond holders and to screw every last penny out of the taxpayers.

In other words S and P is betting on two things: the government is ruthless and there is no chance of a popular revolt succeeding.

In other words S and P is telling investors that Ukraine is ruled by Nazis who will not countenance any popular protests against "reforms" to the economy. And that, not coincidentally, Ukrainian society is so fucked up, divided and hypnotised by false ideology, of one kind or another, that the people- who are already reconciled to a political system which only offers them a choice between competing oligarchs, everyone of them a thief and thug- can be counted upon to make no protest as the lifeblood is drained out of their country.

This is not to say that S and P and its masters are right- if the revolt in the east succeeds, the rest of the country will surely follow their example, merely that the Kiev junta has the full support of the US government. And just look what they did to Panama and Grenada!

Posted by: bevin | Jul 19 2014 23:58 utc | 22

@ #22:

That's a very interesting and insightful take, bevin! I hadn't thought about it that way.

Yes, S&P's job is to estimate risk to investors. It is reasonable for Western economists, given their background knowledge, to assume that the Ukraine will not fall apart, and that the IMF will continue bailing it out, so that it does not default.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 20 2014 0:14 utc | 23

"But what it is saying, essentially, is that those who invest in Ukrainian Bonds will collect their interest on time."

Really, how do you know that? Are you working for U.S. Treasury. Is the U.S. will guarantee that?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-06-23/jordan-raises-1-billion-of-notes-guaranteed-by-u-s-.html

http://www.emergingmarkets.org/Article/3342092/US-fortifies-diplomatic-bonds-with-1bn-Ukraine-deal.html

S & P is a tool. A tool of the U.S. Treasury, i.e. U.S. Government, just as is IMF and World Bank, Ernst and Young, Accenture and so on.

Ukraine if this current nomenclature stays at power will be/is compradore class feed by IMF and World Bank while gap of budget deficits will widen by hour.

Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 20 2014 0:19 utc | 24

and than

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/10972348/Fed-kicks-off-global-dollar-squeeze-as-Janet-Yellen-turns-hawkish.html

The US Federal Reserve has begun to pivot. Monetary tightening is coming sooner than the world expected, with sober implications for overheated bourses, and for those in Asia, eastern Europe and Latin America that drank deepest from the draught of dollar liquidity. We can expect a blistering dollar rally, perhaps akin to the early 1980s or the mid-1990s. It is fortuitous that the BRICS quintet of Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa have just launched their $100bn monetary fund to defend each other’s currencies. Some of theThe US Federal Reserve has begun to pivot. Monetary tightening is coming sooner than the world expected, with sober implications for overheated bourses, and for those in Asia, eastern Europe and Latin America that drank deepest from the draught of dollar liquidity. We can expect a blistering dollar rally, perhaps akin to the early 1980s or the mid-1990s. It is fortuitous that the BRICS quintet of Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa have just launched their $100bn monetary fund to defend each other’s currencies. Some of them may need it.

Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 20 2014 0:27 utc | 25

BREAKING NEWS: Ukraine to launch US GG bond via JPM and MS

14/05/2014 | Francesca Young

Ukraine is pricing a five year $1bn US government guaranteed bond

Ukraine is pricing a $1bn US government guaranteed bond via JP Morgan and Morgan Stanley, two DCM officials away from the deal have told GlobalCapital, the sister title for Emerging Markets.

The five year bond will have a maximum yield of 2.9%, according to press reports which quote the Ukraine government website as the source.

“A yield of 2.9% would seem very generous,” said one DCM official away from the deal. “Treasuries are at 160bp, and that seems like a big pick-up.”

Ukraine is rated Caa3/CCC/CCC, with rating agencies having lowered their assessment of the country’s creditworthiness after Russia sent troops into Crimea on March 1.

Ukraine Bond is just joke. But in the world where economic fundamentals doesn't matter everything is possible.

Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 20 2014 0:34 utc | 26

The Sunday canned-pablum cycle is already in full swing with 'TED Radio Hour', after only a brief obligatory bulletin about doomed MH17, now wrapping up, "The air crash (sic) victims' families are in the process of identifying the bodies, in what for Malaysia Air was another example of being in the wrong place at the wrong time."

A real tragedy. Kill the story. Wrong place. Wrong time. How about that great World Cup!?

Meanwhile, the Blavatnik School of Government is 'moving forward' in "pursuing a vision of better government, stronger societies, and richer human opportunities!" So there's that!!

Back to TRH: "Move forward with a Better Amy, walking gracefully. Oh, my racing heart!"

That's when a new chapter in my life began.
There in my Father’s home, safe and at rest,
There in my Savior’s love, perfectly blest;
Age after age to be, nearer my God to Thee.

Nearer my God to Thee.

Posted by: chip nikh | Jul 20 2014 0:38 utc | 27

Bevin @22. . .Yes Bevin - very well put. I, never being involved in "the market" would not have thought like you. They would never admit it of course, that this is their underlying message to investors.

Cheers

Posted by: kiwicris | Jul 20 2014 0:50 utc | 28

3

Venezuala may join BRIC IMF-Light as 'least worst evil' but they will still have to sell oil to their main customer, the United States, in petrodollars, if their country lasts that long. Having the largest pool of tar sludge on the planet makes 'em a pawn in the Oil Wars.

Brazil is bankrupt and even more so with the Olympics. Their deep water oil reserves are unreachable without massive indebtedness and 'structural readjustments' to swapping oil royalties for interest-only IMF loan repayments.

Russia is technically bankrupt, and with Ukraine affecting their one-trick-pony EU sales, and any deal with Iran and China still a 2,000 mile, $10Bs, multi-year away, Russia will fold. WW3 against the NATO Wurm is suicide.

That leaves poor India, a basketcase, even with the extra 18,000 MicroSoft jobs expatriate, their new Prime Minister is liquidating their bullion supply for IMF loan credits, selling out a billion Indians the same way that Afghans will be sold out by new Executor IMF Ghani.

China, so overleveraged there's not any 'model' capable of predicting how they collapse, as collapse they must while US/EU demand continues to fall, one losing 1Q after another 2Q. China hosting the IMF Light is kind of like the lions guarding the sheeps' sleeping area.

But you will hear gnashing and wailing by the Gold Buggerer propagandists stampeding goys for The Chosen's favorite con: "Buy Gold! Buy Silver! End Times Are Near!! BRIC Will Soon Destroy the PetroDollar!! Act Now, Save Yourselves!! Buffett Says Sell! Oh, the HUMANITY!!!"

Posted by: chip nikh | Jul 20 2014 1:00 utc | 29

As I've stated previously ANY economic indicators/pronouncements - much like any of the MSM news and governments pronouncements - coming out of the US are no longer correlated to any thing resembling reality as they are just the fantastical narratives and meta-narratives that enable the war criminal elite to stay in power.

As any half-awake Westerner should know by know, all economic indicators - from the LIBOR rates on down to unemployment rates, inflation rate, the market indices, bond prices, PM prices - are all fully and completely manipulated to serve the narrow interests of TPTB.

While we are specifically talking about Ukraine here, b could have chosen the numbers - again, any numbers - put out by the US concerning any country/index/rating and the merest surface investigation would show the inherent absurdity of said numbers.

All this being said, what is really interesting is that similar to what happened to the Soviet Union in its waning days, the United States and the neoliberal West are now - and have been for some time - engaging in wholesale/whole cloth fabrication of economic data to fit their perverted ideological agendas.

The BEST - for me - is that now knowing The Market - and all included indices/gauges - is a complete and utter bunch of horseshit what does that say about neoliberalism as a philosophy in general?

I mean, since the Market is supposed to be the Final Arbiter/Prime Mover in the neoliberal universe what the fuck does that say about the system as a whole?

That's right, it's an EVEN BIGGER sham than the degenerate late-stage forms of Soviet Communism ever could have hoped to be.

The sad part is that through the neoliberal naturalization/integration of individual greed/power-lust, individuals in a neoliberal society now not only pretend - if they want to retain their sanity etc - that there is a philosophical "there" to the system they are living under - a situation not easily arrived at due to the massive propaganda battery - but they have to contend with all of the noise/clamor that the myriad bought off whores/minions are making while they cheer the system ever onward - i.e., DOW 50,000 MOTHERFUCKERS!!!

Many of those living under the Soviet yoke but who knew the system was a joke/fairy tale at least could potentially salvage their personal dignity through various acts of non-participation, private/public dissindentism etc but in the neoliberal West those people who are in on the "joke" of the system, why, they're gonna never STOP whooping and hollaring for MORE and MORE and MORE while they gladly/cheerfully fuck us peons and serfs for ever until a some sort of catastrophe stops them e.g. massive war, societal collapse, etc.

Dignity and self-respect are the two worst casualties of the neoliberal paradigm and the loss of each has a profound effect on human relations world-wide because how does one deal with a society - e.g., America - in which the people have forgotten how to lead dignified lives, who have become completely and totally whorified?

Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 20 2014 1:22 utc | 30

@ bevin @ 22

Yes that's an interesting take but I disagree completely. S&P and Moody's are instruments of policy enforcement. Those rating are used to reward behavior that the present regime of finance capital wants and punish behaviors it wishes to forbid- regardless of expected performance. Sure the US and EU govts. will bail out investors, I think we've reached the point where they will do that anyway. They are FUCKING GIVING AWAY money to the ruling class in the form of "quantitative easing" -we "loan" you finance capitalist money a 0% then you can buy these securities with the "loan" and collect a 3% rent. THERE IS NO FUCKING RISK if your a ruling class pig. But take the case of California state. The ratings agencies downgraded California bonds as a punishment for not pushing through a raft of "structural adjustmets" during a yearly budget vote, the kind the regime wants - tax cuts, social spending cuts, etc.,...in this case California said fuck you. you fired.. The rating was changed back to doubleplusgood quickly, because California has the 5th largest economy in the world and the power to tell them to fuck off. These ratings are nothing but carrot and whip extortion..

Posted by: Marc | Jul 20 2014 2:13 utc | 31

Our host's mood seems dilatory. Perhaps arranging charts and diagrams of Central Asian commercial air travel, proving that the insane clown posse was sent to Kiev by John Kerry to find a well-packed commercial jet to blow up.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 20 2014 2:37 utc | 32

Russian Spring

Donetsk. 07/19/2014-22:44

Strelkov:

The situation as it is on the evening: no information about Lugansk.

The unit of commander Mozgovoy successfully repelled the attack destroying 1 tank. Communications with the city (Lisichansk) remain open.

Our matters remain unchanged. Productive were units under command of Bezler to the north and nort-west of settlement Gorlovka.

Russian Spring

Donetsk. 07/19/2014-16:37

Strelkov:

Last reports were giving account for heavy battles under Lugansk, in settlement Yubileyniy. Opponent’s vanguard tank group raided highway Lugansk-Krasniy Luch in area of settlement Lutugino. Yet another communication route is severed.

In city Lisichansk, forces of commander Mozgovoy are under threat of full encirclement inside the city.

Here, the opponent pulls troops toward a “corridor” at settlement Marinovka. Arriving is 51st brigade. Today, a “strayed” armored carried of 72nd brigade rushed up on our positions there. It did get away despite of two shots from anti-tank rifle. Two soldiers were “taken down” from the armor. One was shot dead, second (wounded) was taken captive. He happened to be from 1st company of 1st battalion of 72nd mechanized brigade. Told us that most in his company believe the victory is close.

Settlement Marinovka is being shelled. Combatants fire back at opponent’s positions next to settlement Grigor`evka.

Skirmishes and attacks by reconnaissance groups are in other places.

Question: Combatant’s army does not decree mandatory mobilization.

Strelkov:

We were hindered to do round-ups by the fact that we have come to defend people rather than compulsory drive them to war.

Posted by: Fete | Jul 20 2014 4:58 utc | 33

Most of us realize that the US's ability to control the world through our military power and to coerce other nations through our diplomacy has been seriously degraded over the last decade. Our failures in Iraq and Afghanistan followed by the fiascoes in Libya and Syria have resulted in that. However, the US still has two powerful weapons that we can and are using to control international events. One is control over the information the public's in Europe, the US, of course, and many other people throughout the word receive through our propaganda outlets (As Russian knows full well especially after the few days). The second is US domination over international finance. This latter is one tool that will be very hard to confront.

The US dollar is, and will likely remain, the international reserve currency. As long as that lasts this means the US can intimidate many opponents. As of today, there is no currency nor groups of currencies that can challenge the US dollar. The BRICs can make some efforts, as they should, to by-pass, the US dollar but as of now they cannot replace it. The incredible wealth contained inside the US means the US will be the dominant power for the foreseeable future (at least a decade if not the next 50 years. This why S&Ps rating will be important. Also, as long as the US guarantees Ukrainian bonds, those bonds will have value. Investors need not worry about default because the US will make up the losses. As long as the US backs up Ukrainian bonds, Ukraine will not run out of money. So far we have only guaranteed only $1 billion in their bonds. For the US that is nothing. Recall, we spent, so far, close to $1 trillion in the Iraq war. This was for a strategic goal that many "realist" international relations experts could not even define. In the Ukraine, US's strategic interests are obvious to all.

The point is, do not count on the Ukraine economy to collapse. The US has many more billions of dollars to commit to making sure that does not happen. We can easily spend $100 billion towards that goal. The reason we have not heard that number mentioned is that it is currently not politically possible to convince the US public to go along with such an expenditure. But one crisis here, another there, $1 billion here another $10 billion dollars there and the US public will support commitments. That is the beauty of loan "guarantees", no money needs to be appropriated, the payments are always in the future. Should an "unforeseen" crisis happen, the US will already be committed to honoring the guarantee because the America's word will be on the line.

Posted by: ToivoS | Jul 20 2014 6:21 utc | 34

air to air missile against MH17?
http://whatsupic.com/news-politics-world/1405840273.html

Posted by: brian | Jul 20 2014 7:44 utc | 35

liberal mouthpiece for a fascist regime? Raw Story weighs in
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/07/19/ukraine-accuses-separatists-of-taking-bodies-and-evidence-from-mh17-crash-site/

Posted by: brian | Jul 20 2014 7:45 utc | 36

'If Ukraine ruling Kleptocracy is a fascistic than the Russian one are no less fascist. With what countries the Russian like to see themselves with? Apparently establishment of both countries are competing with the West in game called "Who Is the Biggest Fascists". It seems that today's Russia, as the major victor country from WWII, like to being seeing as the guardian of anti-nazism while accepting all tenets of western-liberalism and the nation states which are fundaments of fascism.

So, whom the lawmakers like to compares with?

«The only way to fight against this like civilized countries do, namely the US and the EU. We should use precision weapons, like Israel, to destroy those who fired this shell [on Russia’s Donetsk]," the lawmaker said.

With "civilized countries" such as Israel?

Sorry Demian quite an idiotic comment.
Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 19, 2014 7:18:38 PM | 17

russia fascist?
a sample of your thinking? to paraphrase u 'Sorry neretva'43 quite an idiotic comment.'

Posted by: brian | Jul 20 2014 7:48 utc | 37

from pepe Escobars FB page:
'Pepe Escobar
8 hours ago
It was Putin's missile! Also at Asia Times. With the original exclamation mark in the title. At RT, they preferred an interrogation mark.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-190714.html

Asia Times was offline for two days - we had serious problems - at the start of the MH17 tragedy. Now we're back, and the site is infested with pathetic Empire trolls.'

Posted by: brian | Jul 20 2014 8:04 utc | 38

@brian #36:

russia fascist?

Let us be fair to neretva'43. There are such people as Russian fascists. They are called Ukrainians.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 20 2014 8:16 utc | 39

Spanish aircontroller CARLOS working at Kiev Borispol airport...he said in many TWEETS that the Malaysian airplane was shot down by two Ukrainian forces. And it is specified that it did not come from the self-defense in the rebel zones. CARLOS had TWITTER account since 2010, but now he has diappeared i Kiev (probably taken by the US=EU supportedf Kievan Junta security forces.) Here are the TWEETS tranlslated from Spanish....
Carlos. @spainbuca – 9h
290 innocent persons dead, for a useless war, where patriotism
is bought with money.
Retweets 471 Favorites 120
Carlos. @spainbuca – 9h
The military command yes knew and other commands did not.
Retweets 76 Favorites 14
Carlos. @spainbuca – 9h
Military commands here (ATC) tower control, confirm that
The missile was from the Ukraine armed forces,
Retweets 811 Favorites 116
Carlos. @spainbuca – 9h
The military personnel under the orders of the Interior Minister,
Knew what happened every moment.
Retweets 299 Favorites 51
Carlos. @spainbuca – 9h
For those who do not know, let us say,
There are military personnel under the command of the Ministry
of Defense and those military personnel under the command of
the Ministry of Interior.
Retweets 288 Favorites 52
Carlos. @spainbuca – 9h
The military high command did not order the launch of the missile,
It slipped off the hands of somebody on Ukraine’s name.
Retweets 360 Favorites 60
Carlos. @spainbuca – 10h
The military radars yes picked up the data of the missile launched
At the airliner, not the civil radars.
Retweets 271 Favorites 52
Carlos. @spainbuca - 10h
The report indicates from where the missile would have been launched,
And it is specified that it did not come from the self-defense in
the rebel zones.
Retweets 449 Favorites 75
Carlos. @spainbuca – 10h
The government already has the official report signed by the military authorities
controlling Kiev…downed.
Retweets 243 Favorites 37
Retweeted Carlos.
RT en Español @ActualidadRT – 10h
FINAL HOUR air traffic controller: Boeing 777 “flew escorted by 2 Ukrainian
Fighter jets” before disappearing
‪#‎MH17‬ es.rt.com/yW7
Retweets 688 Favorites 122 show summary
Carlos. @spainbuca – 10h
Right now the military control officially hands over that the flight was
downed by a missile.
Retweets 255 Favorites 42
Carlos. @spainbuca – 11h
The air space is closed for fear of more downing.
Retweets 343 Favorites 57
Carlos. @spainbuca – 11h
The air space is closed.
Retweets 143 Favorites 23
Carlos. @spainbuca – 11h
The fighters flew close to 777,
up to 3 minutes before disappearing from the radars,
only 3 minutes.
Retweets 810 Favorites 132
Carlos. @spainbuca – 11h
Several days ago I said so here, that the Kiev military wanted
to rise up against the current president, this can be a way,
under the orders of Timoshenko.
Retweets 428 Favorits 70
Carlos. @spainbuac – 12h
Military personnel confirm that it was Ukraine, but it continues
to be unknown from where the order came.
Retweets 575 Favorites 83
Carlos. @spainbuca – 12h
The interior minister yes knew what the fighter jets were doing
in the zone, the minister of defense did not.
Retweets 226 Favorites 35
Carlos. @spainbuca – 12h
Here the military commands know and admit that the military
personnel possibly (obeyed) orders from others, but, not from
pro-Russians.
Retweets 332 Favorites 53
Carlos. @spainbuca – 12h
Everything is registered by the radars, for those who don’t believe,
downed by Kiev, here we know it, and the military air control also
knows it.
Retweets 1000 Favorites 170
Now Carlos reads Carolina Ocampo, Manu Abu Carlos, John Muller
And three others.
Carlos. @spainbuca – 13h
At 7:00 minutes the downing was notified, later our tower was taken
By foreign personnel who continue here.
Retweets 656 Favorites 90
Carlos. @spainbuca – 13h
At the disappearance of flight 777 of Malaysian Airlines, the military authority
informed us of the downing, how did they know?
Retweets 1500 Favorites 160
Carlos. @spainbuca – 13h
If the Kiev authorities want to tell the truth, 2 fighters jets have been
Registered flying very close minutes earlier, before disappearing
on the radars.
Retweets 578 Favorites 76
Carlos. @spainbuca – 13h
The flight B 777 flew escorted by 2 Ukrainian fighter jets until
Minutes before disappearing from the radars,
Retweets 2500 Favorites 355
Carlos. @spainbuca – 14h
When it is possible, I will continue writing.
Retweets 75 Favorites 35
Carlos. @spainbuca – 14h
What are the foreign personnel doing with the Kiev
authorities in the tower (control)? Collecting all the information.
Retweets 291 Favorites 42
Carlos. @spainbuca – 14h
We have the confirmation. Flight downed, the Kiev authority
already have the information, downed, we are quiet now.
Retweets 559 Favorites 83
Retweeted Carlos
Ricardo Marquina @RusiaSeMueve – 14h
I am very afraid that this has NOT been an accident. Here,
to someone, it has slipped out of their hands and I hope that
they pay no matter who they are.
Retweets 101 Favorites 21
Carlos. @spainbuca – 14h
Before they confiscate my cell phone or break my head, it
was downed by Kiev.
Retweets 983 Favorites 154
Carlos. @spainbuca – 14h
They are going to take our telephones and other things at any moment.
Retweets 393 Favoritos 48
Carlos. @spainbuca – 14h
It is not a normal accident, they are threatening us within
the Kiev airport tower control itself,
Retweets 431 Favorites 49
Carlos. @spainbuca – 15h
Kiev has what it wanted, I said so in my first tweets,
Kiev is responsible @ActualidadRT
Retweets 223 Favorites 32
Carlos. @spainbuca – 15h
Flight downed, downed, downed, not an accident.
Retweets 375 Favorites 42
Cralos. @spainbuca – 15h
The flight B 777 of Malaysian Airlines disappeared from the radar,
there are no communications of any anomaly confirmed.
Retweeted 288 Favorites 22
Retweeted Carlos
RT en Español @ActualidadRT – 15h
‪#‎URGENT‬: The Boeing 777 with 280 passengers disappeared from the radars
at 10,000 m of altitude
es.rt.com/yVE
Retweets 167 Favorites 25 show summary
Carlos. @spainbuca – 15h
The tower control is again seized.
Retweets 140 Favorites 11
Carlos. @spainbuca – 15h
Be careful! Kiev has what it is looking for.
Retweets 97 Favorites 14
Carlos. @spainbuca – 15h
Attention! It could be a downing of B 777 Malaysian Airlines
In Ukraine, 280 passengers.
Retweets 118 Favorites 13
Carlos. @spainbuca – 15h
Authorities in Kiev, intend to do…attach the…
Cralos. @spainbuca – 15h
B 777 Malaysian Airlines. 280 passengers accident, crashes in Donetsk, Ukraine,
Retweets 71 Favorites 12
Retweeted Carlos
Grasswire @grasswire – 15h
Malaysian passenger plane with 280 passengers and 15 crew members
crashed in Ukraine, near Russian border.
Retweets 84 Favorites 10
Carlos. @spainbuca – 15h
B 777 Malaysian Airline crashes in Ukraine, borders with Russia.
Retweets 43 Favorites 3
Carlos. @spainbuca – 15 h
Accident of flight 777, passengers, Donetsk zone.
Retweets 28 Favorites 5
Carlos. @spainbuca – 15h
Air accident, passenger plane crashes in Ukraine, Donetsk zone.
Retweets 44 Favorites 6
Retweeted Carlos.
RT in Spanish @ActualidadRT – 15h
#URGENT: A passenger plane crashes at the border ‪#‎Rusia‬ and ‪#‎Ucrania‬,
according to the agency actualidad rt.com
Retweets 69 Favorites 10 show summary
Carlos. @spainbuca – 16h
The good thing about not being in Madrid, 23 degrees and storms.
Retweets 6 Favorites 7
Retweeted Carlos.
Benhur @Lubalas – 16h
@daniespsil @spainbuca In this brief MESSAGE TO UKRAINE there is
a very clear explanation of the motives sold to Ukraine
twitter.com/CT4444/status/…

Posted by: brian | Jul 20 2014 8:40 utc | 40

Folks, stop spamming the site with reports by Carlos, the air traffic controller in Kiev. They are bogus. Please be patient, the valid information is still coming in.

Posted by: ToivoS | Jul 20 2014 9:19 utc | 41

money well spent!
Bridget Dunne shared a link.
11 hours ago
Not.one.dissenting.vote.not.one.

US Senate Unanimously Passes Resolution Supporting Israeli Assault on Gaza

Following a similar resolution passed last week by the U.S. House, the U.S. Senate voted Thursday night to support Israel’s ongoing invasion of the Gaza Strip.

No dissenting vote was cast, and no mention was made of the hundreds of Palestinian civilians, most of whom are women and children, that have been killed by Israel in the past ten days.

Senate Resolution 498 was authored by Bob Menendez (D-NJ) and Lindsey Graham (R-SC), with additional support by Ben Cardin (D-MD) and son of former Republican party politician Ron Paul, Rand Paul (R-KY).

Paul is urging the Senate to pass his own bill, S. 2265, which would end all U.S. foreign aid to the Palestinian Authority until Hamas is barred from the new Palestinian unity government, among other stipulations.

The resolution was passed on the very same night Israel launched its current ground offensive into the Gaza Strip.

The United States and Israel, this past week, signed an agreement under which $429 million of American taxpayers’ money "will be transferred immediately to Israel" to further fund the Iron Dome missile system, which has recently come under scrutiny by prize winning Israeli defense and aerospace engineering expert Dr. Moti Shefer.

http://www.imemc.org/article/68523

Posted by: brian | Jul 20 2014 9:31 utc | 42

Posted by: ToivoS | Jul 20, 2014 5:19:05 AM | 40

theyre not bogus toyboy...but you may be

Posted by: brian | Jul 20 2014 9:31 utc | 43

Toivus

How are they bogus?! What proof you got for saying such?

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 20 2014 9:32 utc | 44

@Demian earlier post …

Dutch News Uses Anne Applebaum as Putin Expert

It didn't take long for Dutch newspapers and national television broadcast editors to locate U.S. neocon 'experts' to tell us how we should think and handle the investigation into the crash of Malaysian passenger jet MH-17 in Ukraine.

Posted by: Oui | Jul 20 2014 12:18 utc | 45

Both The Russians and Germans (and perhaps French)
should just get together and have a joint investigation between themselves
as to what happened

(and exclude everybody else)

Posted by: chris m | Jul 20 2014 12:33 utc | 46

Dutch News Uses Anne Applebaum as Putin Expert

Anne Applebaum is a very good choice
She is after all one of the "Chosen Ones",
and i most certainly am not.

Posted by: chris m | Jul 20 2014 13:07 utc | 47

Americas word is poopie cockie.Please,spare us the stupidity.The only thing the world believes about America is is military might and willingness to use it,dwarfing even the bellicose Hitler,and our economic power is a house of cards waiting for the first big wind of reality of balancing books, waiting for the right accountant.
And the Zionist MSM still hasn't fingered Russia,but they are trying,using unnamed govt officials statements of reliability.
Rand Paul is really trying to throw any chance of election isn't he,by muddying the choices of American voters to only neolibcon idiots,he won't have a chance if they all speak the same language,Hillaryious is much more loved by the Zionists,and they will throw away their boy toy Rand as useful tools.Sheesh,they can't read tea leaves.

Posted by: dahoit | Jul 20 2014 13:26 utc | 48

Well, John "Fuckface" Kerry has come out blaming the rebels for the shoot-down so now intelligent people know that it was Kiev.

Thanks, Fuckface!

Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 20 2014 13:35 utc | 49

Rebels will give black boxes to ICAO.

The fucking propaganda on MH17 here is as thick is the war criminal Israeli assault on Gaza.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 20 2014 13:42 utc | 50

Images from the crash.

http://blogs.korrespondent.net/blog/politics/3394629/

Seems like someone brought their pets on the plane :(

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 20 2014 13:44 utc | 51

Gwynne Dyer has an interesting angle on the intercepted telephone conversations between rebel commanders on YouTube.

http://www.straight.com/news/688786/gwynne-dyer-its-pretty-obvious-who-shot-down-malaysia-airlines-flight-17

The really damning evidence, however, is on the social media sites. First there is a post on a top rebel commander’s site, just at the time MH17 went down, claiming to have downed a Ukrainian transport plane. Within hours that post was deleted. Then the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU) posted intercepted telephone conversations between rebel commanders on YouTube.

“Demon”, commanding the rebel troops who are the first to the crash site, reports: “Cossacks from the Chernunkhino checkpoint shot down the plane....They found the first body. It’s a civilian.” “Were there many people?” asks his superior, nicknamed “Greek”. “A fuckload,” replies Demon. “The debris rained right into the yards.”

“Any weapons there?” asks Greek. “None at all. Civilian things. Medical stuff, towels, toilet paper,” says Demon. “Any documents?” asks Greek. And Demon, finally realising what must have happened, replies: “Yes. From an Indonesian student. From Thompson University.” And he curses again.

It’s probably not Thompson University, which is an entirely online institution in the United States. It’s almost certainly Thompson Rivers University in Kamloops, which has a student exchange agreement with the International Islamic Education Council (IIEC) in Indonesia.

And there’s no way, without access to the crash site and with only a few hours to do the job, that the Ukrainian intelligence service could have come up with that kind of detail to put into a fake recording. It’s genuine. The rebels did it.

Posted by: pantaraxia | Jul 20 2014 14:11 utc | 52

Paul Wolfowitz has stated on numerous occasions that the overarching objective to US foreign policy is to prevent the rise of another global challenger. He and other neoliberalcons aim to break up Russia or corner it and starve it with economic sanctions. The US puppet regime in Kiev is key to this.

If nations will not fall in line with America's "hegemonic plans," especially in turns of the petrodollar, they will be targeted for bombs, missiles, and bullets or shut out and starved. Nations that are taken over will either be assimilated or if the occupied population proves unruly, they'll be reduced to third world status. Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine, Pakistan, etc. are not US foreign policy failures. They are great success stories of US foreign policy.

Posted by: Cynthia | Jul 20 2014 14:19 utc | 53

LOL - that made my sunday http://rt.com/news/174196-berlin-artist-obama-embassy/

Posted by: Robert | Jul 20 2014 14:28 utc | 54

There is a concerted campaign to rush the victim to the scaffold in the centre of town, before the Judge arrives.

This haste usually means that the guys at the head of the lynch mob can't prove their victim committed the crime, are just using the opportunity to settle old scores, and are afraid that judicial proceedings will discover that they did it.

One thing is certain: the popular forces had no motive, while the fascists in Kiev and their bosses in Langley most certainly did. This doesn't eliminate the possibility that the aircraft was shot down inadvertently, although technical factors would tend to suggest that the militias had neither the experience nor the equipment to bring down a target at 33,000 ft.

At this point sensible people will be calling for restraint, objective investigations and warning against the quick and brutal punishment response that causes untold and permanent waves of suffering. There is a continuum between the "tough on crime" rhetoric of right wing demagogues and brutal massacres of the sort being carried out in Gaza and planned in Kiev.

In the meantime the sincerity of the political blowhards (100% in favour of the evidently false proposition that 'Israel is defending itself') and their echo chamber is perfectly indicated by the insouciance with which they applaud another day of slaughter in Gaza and write off as "necessary sacrifices" the lives of dozens more children and their impoverished, ill treated and utterly defenceless parents.

And The Guardian, the Toronto Star and other instruments of imperial hegemony add more proof every day that the intellectual and moral centre of civilisation has long since left the banks of the Atlantic where no-nothings howl down any attempts at reasoned and serious analysis and the threadbare remnants of Bills of Rights and the rule of law have been completely discarded as exceptions to imperial appetites and whims.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 20 2014 14:31 utc | 55

I hazard a guesstimate that the shootdown of MH17 is directly connected to the Israeli invasion of the Gaza Strip. The connections between the Kiev regime and Israel have been well documented. And that in spite of overwhelming superiority on the ground (and in the air) Kiev has been getting its arse kicked by an amateur war games enthusiast (or reenactment).

So what better than a gruesome diversion, ably abetted by the corporate/state presses of the imperialists. The whole thing reeks! I have a feeling that it's going to unravel badly for the Empire.

Posted by: William Bowles | Jul 20 2014 14:51 utc | 56

LOL! @ pantaraxia

Hilarious anyone is dumb enough to be still babbling about those hilariously fake recordings.

Moving on...

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/19/airline-horror-spurs-new-rush-to-judgment/

"Regarding the shoot-down of the Malaysian jetliner on Thursday, I’m told that some CIA analysts cite U.S. satellite reconnaissance photos suggesting that the anti-aircraft missile that brought down Flight 17 was fired by Ukrainian troops from a government battery, not by ethnic Russian rebels who have been resisting the regime in Kiev since elected President Viktor Yanukovych was overthrown on Feb. 22.

According to a source briefed on the tentative findings, the soldiers manning the battery appeared to be wearing Ukrainian uniforms and may have been drinking, since what looked like beer bottles were scattered around the site. But the source added that the information was still incomplete and the analysts did not rule out the possibility of rebel responsibility."

The NeoNazi regime is finished:

* Redirected a commercial flight over territory they were attacking and ordered the pilot to drop altitude to for their missile crews to be able to hit.

* Were caught with their BUK systems active at both the time and the area the jet was shot down

* Have admitted the Novorossiya have no working BUK systems

* Captured on satellite photos firing the BUK that shot down the jet

You just have to shake your head in disgust at just how far off in fantasyland the jingoists are:

* Russia sent a single BUK unit over the border even though the Novorossiya have been begging for weapons from Russia have have been turned down

* Novorossiya forces dressed up in Ukraine uniforms and used their new BUK to shoot down a commercial jet without any of the targeting and tracking support infrastructure BUK systems are require

* Then raced the BUK system right back across the border to Russia

Right...

Posted by: Jen Psaki | Jul 20 2014 14:54 utc | 57

Improving a countrys financial rating
would allow it to service existing loans at lower interest rate,
and maybe get to borrow a little bit more.

"Give me control of a nation's money
and I care not who makes its laws."
Mayer Amschel Rothschild.

Good advice.

Posted by: chris m | Jul 20 2014 15:27 utc | 58

In 1988, The US navy shot down Iranian civilian A300 Airbus
http://www.arabworld360.info/2014/07/the-us-navy-shot-down-iranian-civilian.html#.U8v3NJSSzfI

Posted by: M. Tomazy | Jul 20 2014 16:07 utc | 59

@ 54

Hilarious anyone is dumb enough to be still babbling about those hilariously fake recordings.


How do you explain the documents being incorporated into a video made the previous day?

Are they that good? To put that kind of detail in a false flag.

What would be the point? It could backfire on them - no student on the flight.

And if they are that good - we're fucked.

Posted by: pantaraxia | Jul 20 2014 16:22 utc | 60

test

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 20 2014 16:24 utc | 61

@pantaraxia

You can't possibly be this dimwitted.

The fake recording is made up from editing together old Novorussia communications talking about the downing of a Ukraine military plane and the amateurish Ukraine intelligence agency(or whoever) MH17 staged acting.

This has been known for two days now.

And it is why the timestamps match the time original Novorussia shoot down of the Ukraine military plane.


Posted by: Bart | Jul 20 2014 16:42 utc | 62

Has anyone here reposted the theory advanced by separatist militia that the airlines was already filled with corpses? It would be irresponsible not to, as every possible blame-pointing theory has been vented here and given equal treatment, especially if it points a finger at the Kiev government.

Posted by: ralphieboy | Jul 20 2014 16:49 utc | 63

60

And the people that were supposed to be on the plane had been killed before? Is that what you mean?

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 20 2014 16:51 utc | 64

Airline Horror Spurs New Rush to Judgment (consotorium News] some US intelligence belief on surveillance that the Ukies did do the deed -while drinking beer

Posted by: NMS | Jul 20 2014 17:27 utc | 65

Re Guardian;What used to be the best overall website in Britain(at least)for this Yankee dog has turned into NYTs east,its site filled with gender and social bs,and comments restricted to free speech zones.My god, they now suck,and it all started right after the Iraq war when the groundswell of opposition must have scared the Ziomonsters,and they stopped feeding that alleged beast of peace and understanding.
Oui;Is the Netherlands MSM owned by Frisians or Hebrews?I would think there might be your answer.I have never looked myself,as Dutch news doesn't make much noise on the web.(for whatever reason)

Posted by: dahoit | Jul 20 2014 17:33 utc | 66

@22 bevin quote "But what it is saying, essentially, is that those who invest in Ukrainian Bonds will collect their interest on time."

just like s&p, moodys and etc stood behind enron (up til 2001),the usa bank system, subprime mortgage lenders circa 2008 and etc. etc. etc. bevin.. playing musical chairs on the deck of the titanic sometimes pans out and sometimes it doesn't.. this one is too early to tell, but on the surface you are correct.

@31 marc quote "S&P and Moody's are instruments of policy enforcement. Those rating are used to reward behavior that the present regime of finance capital wants and punish behaviors it wishes to forbid- regardless of expected performance." ditto marcs comment..

@34 toivoS quote "The US dollar is, and will likely remain, the international reserve currency. As long as that lasts this means the US can intimidate many opponents. As of today, there is no currency nor groups of currencies that can challenge the US dollar." ditto this quote too..

@46 chris m quote "Dutch News Uses Anne Applebaum as Putin Expert" that is really quite pathetic, but to be expected.. it is a bit like asking a known pedophile to look after the kids..

@49 - 'Gwynne Dyer', another useful tool for the empire.. what an ignoramus. the straight is a shitty vancouver b.c. rag.. give it up with that shit..

@52 bevin - ditto that. thanks.

@57 pantaraxia.. could it be they are discussing the ukee military aircraft that was downed the previous evening of mh17, or are we supposed to believe it is one and the same? use your thinking, instead of swallowing the pablum knowingly..

@59 bart.. yes, it appears pantaraxia is that dumb! cheap western propaganda works on many people and pantaraxia is a good example of this..

@62 nms.. that sounds more likely... i hope the beer was worth it. the suffering this has caused is horrific to those who have lost their life over this and all the extra bullshit propaganda it has set in motion..

Posted by: james | Jul 20 2014 18:07 utc | 67

To #52, there was no Thompson Rivers University student on this plane.
http://inside.tru.ca/2014/07/17/concern-and-sympathy-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17/

Posted by: Steve | Jul 20 2014 18:58 utc | 68

@67 correction to my post.. i meant @55, instead. thanks bevin..

Posted by: james | Jul 20 2014 19:00 utc | 69

Thank you James@wpc - http://winterpatriot.com/node/907

An antidote to the bullsh*t "Incompetence Theories" so beloved of the idiotic/dishonest bevinites

    Before we start, though, it might be useful to refresh our memories of a few facts that are generally available to the public and would certainly be available to Robert Parry with his connections to various government and intelligence agencies.

    It must be borne in mind that all employees of US intelligence agencies sign agreements to the effect that they will not speak or publish anything that even hints at national security without submitting it the agency concerned for vetting. In other words, when someone like ex-CIA analyst, Ray McGovern, publishes an article, it has been approved by the CIA.

    Similarly, anyone who conveys intelligence information to a journalist like Robert Parry, whether through a third party or not, is breaching his contract of employment and the law and maybe guilty of treason if his action and information has not been previously approved for distribution or 'leaking'. Also, the journalist concerned will be breaking the law if this has not been approved.

    So, given that Robert Parry has quoted CIA sources and has not been charged with any offences arising from this article or any previous ones quoting 'inside information' and remains employed as a publishing journalist, we can take it that the intelligence agencies, at the very least, are not upset with the 'leaks' or, more likely, have approved the distribution of the 'information'. Either way, the logic says it must suit the CIA's purposes.

    Also, Mr Parry represents the State Dept (bad guys), the CIA (good guys) and the Obama Administration (clueless guys) as all acting independently from one another. And, indeed, certain individuals such as Victoria Nuland actually facilitate coups quite independently to further their own personal careers and presumably without any harm to said career. This is not credible, especially in time of war.

Posted by: ahem | Jul 20 2014 19:17 utc | 70

@67 James

I was referring to:

"Any documents?” asks Greek. And Demon, finally realising what must have happened, replies: “Yes. From an Indonesian student. From Thompson University.” And he curses again."

How does an Indonesian student fit your cozy little scenario of "discussing the ukee military aircraft that was downed the previous evening ".

It may be prudent to know what you're talking about before you start talking.


Posted by: pantaraxia | Jul 20 2014 19:23 utc | 71

There is a concerted campaign to rush the victim to the scaffold in the centre of town, before the Judge arrives.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 20, 2014 10:31:39 AM | 55

Oh but surely that cannot be!!

Why, that would involve some sort of concerted common action by myriad individuals, and as we all know by now no such thing could ever occur because TPTB are too stupid to ever achieve such a thing, right?

"concerted common action by myriad individuals" - sounds a bit like a "conspiracy" - but don't worry your pretty little non-pompous heads about all that cos of course "conspiracies" don't exist - bevinite-dialectics, favourite anti-logic tool of pseudo-intellectuals everywhere, shows that conspiracies don't exist because the people that rule are just too fuckin stoopid, apparently

Posted by: ahem | Jul 20 2014 19:24 utc | 72

brian @36

"ukraine accuses separatists of taking bodies and evidence from mh17 crash site"

As opposed to leaving them there to rot and be scavenged by dogs, wolves, birds etc? I'm sure that is best practice for crime scene management in war zones - Ukraine style.

Re Ukrainian bonds:

Ukraine is raising war bonds as it already having to fund its army from donations. The bonds have a high return which will be sustainable until the Ukrainian tax-payers are totally impoverished. It is also about to declare martial law (Friday 25 July possibly) with conscription. They are talking about having the exemption limit set to 60 years. Geez, how desperate is that? Still I guess if they just want canon fodder, there is no point in being choosey.

Posted by: Yonatan | Jul 20 2014 19:32 utc | 73

bevin @22, james @67

The big banks will invest, as will connected people, along with greedy ordinary people. Those connected will have prior warning of impending problems, allowing them to pull out in time. The Cyprus collapse happened, just by pure chance you understand, immediately after major French and German banks term deposits matured. The banks were paying 0.5% in France/Germany and getting 4.5% or more in Cyprus - money (pure profit) for nothing, especially when there is no downside.

Posted by: Yonatan | Jul 20 2014 19:49 utc | 74

Jen Psaki @57

Ukrainian Buk systems have been spotted a two sites (Krasnoarmivska and Soledar) ~100 km to the north-west of the crash site, well in side Ukrainian-held territory. Interestingly, one of them had only 3 missiles on the launcher.

Posted by: Yonatan | Jul 20 2014 20:05 utc | 75

Yonathan

Please post the one with only 2 if you can find it.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 20 2014 20:07 utc | 76

"Ukrainian Buk systems have been spotted a two sites (Krasnoarmivska and Soledar) ~100 km to the north-west of the crash site, well in side Ukrainian-held territory. Interestingly, one of them had only 3 missiles on the launcher."

The evidence that Ukraine committed this terrible act is growing everyday.

1. Ukraine deployed BUK systems in the very same area that the jet was shot down days before

2. Ukraine ATC redirected MH17 to fly directly over these Ukraine BUK systems

3. Ukraine ATC ordered MH17 to lower its altitude below its requested height

4. The Ukraine BUK systems were active at the time of the shoot down

5. Ukraine had badly faked recordings edited and ready to go immediately after they shot MH17 down

6. US intellegence apparently has satellite photos of the Ukraine BUK system that shot down MH17 with soldiers wearing Ukraine uniforms manning it:

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/

7. Ukraine is hiding the ATC communications with MH17. There is absolutely no reason to do so other than they are hiding the pilot's fears about being ordered to fly directly over the area Ukraine forces are waging their attacks and dropping to a lower altitude.

The lack of any direct evidence being presented by the US is very telling. If the anti-neo nazi forces had really fired at MH17 the Western media would be mass spamming those satellite images 24/7 with the US calling for NATO air strikes backed UN Security Council resolutions.

Russia should demand that Ukraine have its BUK systems weapon inventories audited and accounted for by a United Nations inspection team.

Thankfully the black boxes have been finally discovered and are being handed over to investigators and are safe from being hidden or destroyed by Kiev.

Posted by: brenda steele | Jul 20 2014 20:29 utc | 77

@71 pantaraxia.. i read the article by gwynne dyer that you shared here

do you believe the article you read by dyer? this is your quote from @52 "Gwynne Dyer has an interesting angle on the intercepted telephone conversations between rebel commanders on YouTube."

as i said before, dyer is a bullshit artist feeding the halls of power...the tapes are by patch artists and fictitious as i see it.

Posted by: james | Jul 20 2014 20:38 utc | 78

@Oui #45:

Thanks. To be expected, I suppose. Pathetic how some Dutch don't mind their own people being murdered to prop up a fascist regime, and then even lying about that to blame someone else for the murders.

I will not post a comment on your diary, since I don't register at fascist blogs.

@ahem #70:

Thanks for that. I had already sussed out Parry (how he blames everything on the neocons, with Obama being an innocent, helpless bystander). I did find the use of the phrase "ethnically pure Ukrainians" bizarre. That fantasy is of course at the root of Ukie fascism/racism.

As that excellent blog post makes clear, the media are leading the public on another wild-goose chase. Exchanges of MH17 with ATC might very well reveal as much of what happened as the black boxes can, but that those recordings have been seized by the junta is never mentioned by the media (apart from one brief mention by the BBC). And as the Saker has mentioned, the US, Russia, Germany, and possibly other governments of NATO countries must already know how MH17 was downed, but the press presents this as if it all is still a "mystery (with the usual suspects being the main suspects, of course), to use one of Parry's favorite words.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 20 2014 21:01 utc | 79

Radio communications between MH17 and air traffic controllers should have been available to (and presumably recorded by) all powers that were intercepting those communications. I would be very surprised if the Russians were not listening in.

Posted by: lysias | Jul 20 2014 21:19 utc | 80

lysias

Same goes for US I guess?

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 20 2014 21:39 utc | 81

@lysias #80:

Well sure, Russian ATC was just a few minutes from taking over from Ukieland.

I'm not sure what game Russia's playing. Part of its considerations is clearly to reveal as little of its ELINT capabilities as possible. It would prefer the West to figure out the truth on its own without Russia needing to reveal anything. Also, it probably wants the junta/USG to dig their own hole deeper.

It is hard not to see this as just more overreach by USG, as the coup itself was. I hope that German and French intelligence and governments do not think that shooting down an airliner with hundreds of Europeans on board, all to prop up an illegal fascist regime in the middle of Europe, is part of normal Realpolitik.

In any case, if the truth does come out, obviously it will not be the whole truth (that the Empire ordered the junta to shoot MH17 down).

@Anonymous #81:

Sure.

The press is disgusting as ever. I have seen no demands for ATC recordings to be released, as Malaysian Airlines did in the case of its first lost plane.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 20 2014 21:48 utc | 82

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-ukraine-malaysia-jet-training-20140719-story.html

“Whoever fired the surface-to-air missile that brought down a passenger jet over eastern Ukraine would have needed extensive training to execute the mission, according to military experts.”

Confusing article from the Government's outlet. It is noticeable effort of them to be "balanced" and yet it is more noticeable an article's appeal to emotions of reader because “Senior U.S. officials have said...” and “It’s possible, Reeves said, that specialized Russian military personnel...”

What is puzzling to me, and I saw that is few articles, is emphasis that "the system is unable to distinguish between a military transport plane and a large passenger aircraft." as if they are giving an excuse to whoever did this.

John Pike, the director of GlobalSecurity.org, says:

"The thing is a traveling road show. Pike said the pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine couldn't operate such a system on their own.

This thing is way too complicated to be operated by anyone other than somebody who does it for a living," he said. "We continue to have a discussion as though... the pro-Russian separatists were somehow independently owned and operated -- they're not."

Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 20 2014 21:59 utc | 83

Agree that it feels well past time for some proof by the accusers (and/or an admission of guilt by the guilty -- since whoever did this must know that there is proof somewhere) -- it's becoming a dog that didn't bark in the night glaring hole in the story, particularly since the targeting of a commercial passenger jet seems to be universally recognized as an targeting error ...
The BBC was disgusting this morning mentioning repeatedly the vague smell of decomposing bodies, but failing to mention that in fact the rebels have few resources at hand and have been cooperating for days -- and that somehow, despite claims suggesting the rebels are somehow holding the bodies "hostage" refrigerated railcars have been deployed to hold the remains and remains have been transferred therein for safekeeping and eventual transfer to, apparently Kiev.
The worst, however, on BBC was the suggestion that the patience of the Dutch may be running out and their anger at Putin and Russia and the Rebels (whom they blame) may ......something ... (shake those war rattles, shake them hard) ...

It should be mentioned that apparently there are about 100 bodies that have not been found ... so they're not being held hostage or anything else.

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 20 2014 22:04 utc | 84

the media try to kick start WW3? worse than nazi Der Sturmer #neverlearnfromhistory
http://www.globalresearch.ca/malaysian-airlines-mh17-weathering-the-propaganda-firestorm/5392329

Posted by: brian | Jul 20 2014 22:20 utc | 85

@Susan Sunflower #84:

The "international investigation" is as unconscionable fiasco. It's absolutely disgusting that three days after the crash, experts are still not on site. As someone else said, if the "international community" were really interested in conducting a proper investigation, they would have flown to Rostov (in Russia), which is right next to the crash site.

But no, everything has to be done through the junta, who are coincidentally guilty of the crime being investigated.

The whole thing is so obvious. As I said before, it's a replay of the Syrian gas attacks, which everyone now knows were false flag ops. So to say that the junta deliberately shot the plain down can't even be called a conspiracy theory. It's the only plausible explanation.

The Guardian still has a few left-wing columnists. Is one of them going to state the obvious?

Posted by: Demian | Jul 20 2014 22:23 utc | 86

Posted by: Demian | Jul 20, 2014 5:01:46 PM | 79

yes the neocons are to blame...it was Obama who took the russian offer and rejected attacking syria...who was unhappy? the zionists...esp israel

Posted by: brian | Jul 20 2014 22:34 utc | 87

@brian #87:

Sorry, I don't think this has anything to do with Zionism or Israel. I don't think Israel is angry with Putin for giving Superfly (AKA Obomber) an out with regard to Syria. I have always believed that what stopped the attack on Syria was the British Parliament voting against it and also overwhelming US public opinion against it. Even if Putin hadn't intervened, I think the attack would not have happened. Obama didn't have a leg to stand on; it was starkly different from Bush 2 and Iraq.

This is not to say that Israel was not informed of this false flag op beforehand. It probably was. (Somehow, I don't think NATO countries were.)

Since Bush 2, the State Department and (apparently) the CIA have become Zionized. By that I don't mean that everyone there is a Zionist, but that the US now behaves across the whole world as Israel does in the Middle East. Andrew Bacevich has written about this: How We Became Israel.

USG policy towards Russia was not created by the neocons. Brzezinski was the last one who made significant changes to it, when he decided to use jihadists against Russia. Using Nazis against Russia is just a small modification of Brzezinski's strategy.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 20 2014 22:58 utc | 88

"yes the neocons are to blame..."

it is a convenient excuse. Not to blame the ruling Kleptocracy, i.e. political system which is nothing but a fascism. Secondly, it is blame on "Israeli lobby groups" who somehow have managed US foreign policy for the past decades!?

Everybody but them. Those on the Capitol Hill and the White House.

Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 20 2014 23:04 utc | 89

@gonzalo lira 8

That's a pretty heavy accusation. I'm familiar with your work ( if you are the Gonzalo Lira I'm thinking of ) and so you've earned credibility. However, I don't think b is making any outlandish references in his posts. The ratings agencies clearly were derelict in their responsibility to assign proper ratings to the toxic sludge the investment banks were securitizing and selling to investors. As a financial blogger, you know this.

Given your accusation, you have the responsibility to present evidence as to how b's rendition of events in Ukraine differ from yours.

Posted by: Category 5 | Jul 20 2014 23:08 utc | 90

@brian #85:

Ha, funny that you would link to that piece just before my post. That excellent piece by Tony Cartalucci in effect expands on my post LOL.

Here is a more moderate piece which complements Carlucci's piece. If Western media were not now little more than propaganda outlets for the Empire, these are the kinds of op-eds we would be seeing in the top newspapers. Nothing but sound common sense here; no talk of false flag ops or fascists.

Malaysian Boeing Hit Over Ukraine: Kiev Running Amuck or US Style Policy

The already available facts related to the tragedy clearly tell that no matter what the results of international inquiry may be, the perpetrators are Kiev rulers. According to international civil aviation organization rules, it was Kiev who had to provide safety guarantees in its airspace (especially as it insists the territories of Donetsk and Lugansk regions are under its control) and prevent escalation of combat in the air during the so-called anti-terrorist operation. The excessive use of military power against civilians in the east gave rise to intensification of combat actions.

This is the only reasonable position. Even if the rebels did mistakenly shoot down the plane, the main blame still lies with Kiev. Yet Kiev is left completely off the hook by the Western media. But if its OK for a US-backed fascist junta to murder its own people, why shouldn't it be OK for it to let an airliner get shot down on its territory and under its ATC?

Incidentally, what is stated in that paragraph I quoted is basically as far as Putin has gone in his statements about the tragedy up to this point. But common sense is beyond the pale, as far as the corporate media is concerned; hysterical Russophobia is the order of the day.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 20 2014 23:35 utc | 91

I'm curious!

http://youtu.be/mBlU2hHYJMg The Russian 9K37M1 'Buk-M1' SAM or

better this one

http://youtu.be/DDXScnEKaP0

I was watching these clips about Byk M1 system several times, since there is video of MH17 "hitting" ground (which itself is highly suspicious) how come that the same individual who filmed hadn't filmed the missile at flight? He/she must had been there. From first clip, at mark 1:50 and 2:00 we can see nice smoke trial that missile left behind, also sound of launching/in-flight of missile in second clip, as well. The jet was shot down at 12:15 local time, to reach target it takes the missile couple minutes, few at most. This all is just one huge fakery or something.

Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 20 2014 23:54 utc | 92

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140718/191009824/FBI-Investigators-to-Head-to-Malaysian-Plane-Crash-Site-in.html

"FBI Investigators to Head to Malaysian Plane Crash Site in Ukraine – Report"

What a joke! Now I am certain, everything is just choreography with Hollywood style with "coalition of willing" as the main actors.

Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 21 2014 0:03 utc | 93

ahem: what did you call yourself last?

And supposing that your posts @70 and @72 actually dealt with opinions that I had expressed rather than false caricatures you have supplied, so what?

In fact the burden of your argument is to discredit Parry and McGovern while they are making arguments against the MSM/State Department propaganda. Just as, using another name months ago, you went out of your way to discredit Snowden and Greenwald, asserting that, like Parry and NcGovern, they are not really opponents of those guiding US policy and that their revelations should be dismissed.

So, in fact, you are taking the same position that sock puppets of the NSA and, in your case, GCHQ always take.

You set out to discredit whistleblowers, discount their revelations and promote explanations that blame anything and anyone except the capitalist class and the government of the Empire.

In future I will not feed you as you attempt to disrupt this forum; by the way couldn't you ask the boss if you could use a pseudonym that did not always conform to the four letter pattern?

Posted by: bevin | Jul 21 2014 0:07 utc | 94

Who will the investigate investigators?

Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 21 2014 0:30 utc | 95

@92 you're on the right way, if a SAM/BUK would have been fired everybody MUST see a contrail and this even still would be in the sky after MH17 already hit the ground. There was no one...

Posted by: Robert | Jul 21 2014 1:11 utc | 96

yea, that is interesting..

Posted by: james | Jul 21 2014 2:10 utc | 97

One only had to watch the media rollout of the shoot down to know that - whatever the facts - the fix was in. From the first reports in the Western media, "experts" were declaring "the Russians had done it", quickly confirmed by those trustworthy fellows from the Central Intelligence Agency (known for always telling the truth, those guys). Then we hear reports of "looting at the crash site" which the media tells us means "we'll probably never know" (how very convenient) - as someone here mentioned, this was the exact script from the Ghouta gas attacks.

Events like this and their victims are, as always, just cannon fodder for the media war. Now, wether proof can be gathered to pin it on its culprits,,, that would be interesting. Though I'm quite certain that the FBI, those of "shoot them in the top of the head and say he attacked you" and "no one really wants to work the counter-terror cases anymore" are there to make sure anything like that won't ever happen.

---

@bevin - who do you think ahem is? It the same old pro-Maidan, nazi faker who's been leaving his slimetrail on MoA for years. The manipulative little ass-kisser who is, IMHO, more or less responsible for the banning of Mr. Pragma. The total liar who claims on his resume everything from "having worked for a grain merchant" to "leading a housing protests" (whatever the fuck any of that means) - in increasingly pathetic attempts to appear relevant.

His emergence, along with slothrop showing up to do a bad impression of Louis Proyect is making for a pretty nauseating evening.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 21 2014 2:25 utc | 98

TovioS, what is your evidence about the Spanish ATC? I really don't see why you would say something like that. He has actually conducted live, on-air interviews:

Global Research

RT Spanish

If you're going to make accusations, you need to back them up.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 21 2014 2:35 utc | 99

The Spanish ATC had a role of "ping coming of black boxes in Indian Ocean off Australia".

Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 21 2014 2:45 utc | 100

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