Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 17, 2014

Plane Down In Ukraine - Facts? Who Needs Facts?

A Malaysian Boeing 777 with 295 people on board crashed today near Shakhtarsk 50 kilometer east of Donetsk, Ukraine.

The appropriate key for "western" journalist to press now is this one.

Over the now coming propaganda shit-storm the recent defeat of the coup-government troops will likely stay unreported.

Posted by b on July 17, 2014 at 16:55 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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The server of MoA was temporarily unavailable so I could not post any comments. My last post #200 with a link to WayBackMachine caused the frame to widen immensely. b can just delete that post, I posted the new link @BooMan.

Close Trading Ties Between Russia and Netherlands

Posted by: Oui | Jul 18 2014 11:24 utc | 201

84

https://archive.org/details/gd1980-12-26.nak300.walker-scotton.miller.89260.sbeok.flac16

I get it now...

Posted by: chip nikh | Jul 18 2014 11:40 utc | 202

100;Yeah,went to the Graun;Putin did it!sheesh.Hillaryous says;Putin did it!NBC;Putin did it!CNN;Putin did it!A wasteland of propaganda.
Shhhh...Obama did it!5 billion?Certifiable.

Posted by: dahoit | Jul 18 2014 11:56 utc | 203

Twitter have shut down account of @spainbuca. Tweets are archived here: http://slavyangrad.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/spanish-air-controller-kiev-borispol-airport-ukraine-military-shot-down-boeing-mh17/

Posted by: corry | Jul 18 2014 11:59 utc | 204

Audio “Proof” of Ukrainian Rebel Responsibility for Malaysian Flight Downing is Fake http://antiwar.com/blog/2014/07/18/audio-proof-of-ukrainian-rebel-responsibility-for-malaysian-flight-downing-is-fake/

Posted by: corry | Jul 18 2014 12:02 utc | 205

152

http://i.imgur.com/o64Ds.jpg

Let the games begin ... sub-zero winter hits Kiev in ~120 days.

Posted by: chip nikh | Jul 18 2014 12:30 utc | 206

McCain warns Putin over downed Malaysian airplane

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/371734.html


Here is my "Hollywood Interpetation"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A56135DgHs8

Posted by: Paty Kerry | Jul 18 2014 12:34 utc | 207

If the Russians/pro-Russian rebels
were already in possession of surface launched missile
capable of shooting down aircraft at 33,000 feet

then surely they would already have shot down a damn site more planes by now.

a lot of the planes already incapacitated by Russians/pro-Russian rebels
seem to be either helicopters or eles destroyed on the ground.

Posted by: chris m | Jul 18 2014 13:39 utc | 208

who diverted MH17 and why?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152214261361451&set=a.57801966450.71609.591506450&type=1&theater

Posted by: brian | Jul 18 2014 13:56 utc | 209

@197
can give lessons in delusion

Posted by: brian | Jul 18 2014 13:57 utc | 210


Ukrainian Buk battery radar was operational when Malaysian plane downed - Moscow
On Thursday, when a Malaysian Airlines plane was apparently shot down over Ukraine, a Ukrainian Buk anti-aircraft missile battery was operational in the region, the Russian Defense Ministry said, contradicting Kiev’s statements.

The battery was deployed at a site from which it could have fired a missile at the airliner, the ministry said in a statement. It said radiation from the battery’s radar was detected by the Russian military.

“The Russian equipment detected throughout July 17 the activity of a Kupol radar, deployed as part of a Buk-M1 battery near Styla [a village some 30km south of Donetsk],” the ministry said in a statement.

The ministry said the radar could be providing tracking information to another battery deployed in the region, which was at a firing distance from the plane’s flight path.

Earlier Kiev said it could not have fired a missile at the passing civilian plane because it had no Buk missile launchers deployed in the region. At the same time the Ukrainians said the militias had no Buk systems in their hands, according to a statement from the country’s Prosecutor General.

After the Russian ministry came out with the statement, Bogdan Senyk, a spokesman for the Ukrainian Defense Ministry reiterated Kiev’s position, saying that "anti-aircraft missiles have not been deployed during the anti-terrorist operation ... they are all in place."
http://rt.com/news/173784-ukraine-plane-malaysian-russia/#_=_

Posted by: brian | Jul 18 2014 13:59 utc | 211

War by all means. 9/11 was worth the lives, so were those of Ghouta and in this case passengers of MH17. Even if an individual was found pulling the trigger was a federalist, the question remains why you'd keep sending civilian airplanes over a war zone where the last couple of days helicopters and fighter craft have been shut down. Unless the aim is to severely expand the conflict.

What will probably happen now is that Obama will give a stupid speech with a frenzied presstitute media enriching it with all sorts of war cry propagande to pave the was for NATO moving in and start dropping high explosive cluster+phosphorous+low uranium "freedom" bombs on federalists with HRW and AI at the side lines screaming for more. The canon fodder will keep comming from the other regions most likely sprinkled with "advisors" and other US imperial mercenaries. If Russia doesn't sit by idle, I wouldn't be surprised if US + NATO vasals will attack Russia, presumably also under a fake pretext or another false flag as has been going on the last 50 years. That's the price a dying super power is ready to pay to externalize it's problem of economic decay at the hands of the BRICS.

Posted by: cxv | Jul 18 2014 14:04 utc | 212

Spainbuca is a atention seeking whore. All fake. Twitter account has been erased after being outed by Spanish journos.

If it sounds to good to be true, maybe someone is telling you what you want to hear.

Posted by: Alejandro | Jul 18 2014 14:07 utc | 213

Alejandro

Maybe you are not telling us the truth, stop bs here.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 18 2014 14:31 utc | 214

Why so many statements and quotes without sources? This goes for both sides usually debating on here. You can speculate all you want but facts will not be available until the investigation is concluded. Start pasting sources! it's not that hard.

Why and who routed the plane over the war zone? I doubt that a pilot would risk his and the passengers life over saved fuel. But then again, greed is not to be underestimated.

Posted by: Banray | Jul 18 2014 14:32 utc | 215

NYT map of flight paths in the past week. Interesting to note who has and has not been flying across Ukraine. Air France and British Air circled around, and apparently Thai Air did so once (July 17?). Whereas Lufthansa, KLM, Malaysia flew straight.

Flag carriers of countries who push back against US policies a) felt safer or b) had less information or c) care less about their passengers safety or e) other?

Posted by: coke | Jul 18 2014 14:40 utc | 216

BREAKING SHOCK Strelkov: Some bodies in Boeing were people deceased days before crash
Игорь Стрелков: часть людей из Боинга умерли за несколько суток до катастрофы
rusvesna.ru

Posted by: Moscovite | Jul 18 2014 14:41 utc | 217

Looks like Kolomoyski"s job (well known mafia criminal )
rusvesna.su
Expert: well prepared provocation
http://rusvesna.su/news/1405691046

Игорь Стрелков: часть людей из Боинга умерли за несколько суток до катастрофы
http://rusvesna.su/news/1405691046

Posted by: Moscovite | Jul 18 2014 14:44 utc | 218

Zerohedge has the link for the seperatist side talking about the lack of the radar equipment needed to use their BUK SAM equipment. If true, the chances of it being able to blind fire down something at 30k feet are pretty slim.

Likewise the Russians seem to be biding their time and building the Intel from their various collection sites, etc. They've already stated that the Ukie BUK site had it's radar's on and emitting and were in the right location to fire. (For SAM's firing at targets that high you need a radar system to pass data to the SAM for at least initial launch targeting.)So this is much more damning to the Ukie side, though we'll see if Russia can/will release info showing geolocation data and/or IR data from a ground launch site. If so that will be the nail in the coffin for who launched it. Other western nations and China likely have similar capabilities and may have their own corroborating data to add. So the real question is, if it was the Ukies and not the separatists, as seems likely, will the west try to just ignore the data and keep with their existing narrative. If so will the European populations fall for it with Russian proof that will be technical in nature and much harder to refute?

(we already know the US population will fall for it...)

Posted by: thepanzer | Jul 18 2014 14:49 utc | 219

It starts to sound like Operation Northwoods False Flag. Ukraine says it has phone call audio of the separatists telling Russian military peeps they shot down airliner.

The Tonkin Gulf incident that started full-speed-ahead US involvement in Vietnam was created by a script read from US aircraft carrier radio room and details of a minor incident with a Vietnamese gunboat a day or so previously.

Previous incident here is the separatist shoot down of a Ukraine military transport aircraft at an altitude of 22,000 feet. Much lower than the civilian aircraft was flying (33,000 feet).

US "Officials" say the missile that took down a civilian airliner over Ukraine "might have been" Russian made whatever THAT means...

It looks like the warmongers are Kickstarting World War III.

They can’t do it without you!

Informational Video

Contribute Today!

Posted by: Razer Ray | Jul 18 2014 14:49 utc | 220

Summary of some of the Russian side of things.

And for all of you - hopefully - non-Americans who are telling/admonishing us all here to wait for the investigation and that inevitably the facts will come to light:

You guys really have to get your naive heads in a different place because TPTB have expertly factored the latency of the public's attention span as it confronts the propaganda/narrative battery at their disposal.

It is well past the time to blame the US FIRSTLY SECONDLY and THIRDLY for any of the atrocities that happen in ANY of the arenas/theaters of operations where it is waging its decade+ long war of aggression.

If the US hadn't backed the junta/jihadists in Kiev, Syria etc to begin with obviously the atrocities/war crimes directly attributable to the aggressors would not have happened.

IN EXACTLY the same light, the casualties that have resulted from those resiting the murderous campaign of the US et al. would ALSO not have happened and are a direct CONSEQUENCE of them having to defendthemselves against illegal aggression.

Please let's not forget that - just like the 60+ year criminal campaign by the apartheid genocidal Israelis against the Palestinians - THE WHOLE FUCKING UKRAINE CAMPAIGN is a war crime no matter how hard the perps attempt to isolate each of their crimes and paint them as justified responses/reactions to previous events.

As to actually thinking that there will be a real investigation by some sort of independent panel of experts, you really have to be either a non-American or a fucking nimrod to think that. For example, even though some Americans can set their fucking tap water on fire, "independent investigations and panels" just can't quite seem to figure out if it MIGHT be related to the fracking that's going on right next to where these people live.

There are THOUSAND AND THOUSANDS of examples of said "investigative" behavior/actions that happen on every scale imaginable - from 9/11 down to the water/food you drink - involving the US and its whores so really don't hold your fucking breaths.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 18 2014 14:52 utc | 221

Wretched Statement by Ms Clinton On Crash Malaysia Flight 017

Malaysia Air has updated the nationality of the victims, 189 Dutch nationals died in the crash in Ukraine. The Netherlands has a good relationship with Russia dating back to Peter the Great and has important trading ties through joint ventures with Gazprom and Dutch Shell.

Dutch PM Rutte just finished his first press conference after he had a phone conversation with President Putin. Although the Dutch newspapers and journals are extremely biased anti-Russian in its statements and the so-called 'experts' they interview on air, Rutte stayed completely neutral. He made clear it serves no purpose to start with accusations where there is little to no evidence. The only indication from the intelligence source, the likelyhood the civilian plane flight ML017 was shot down by a missile launched from the ground.

Two days ago, the Ukrainian government warned the air space above eastern Ukraine was unsafe. It's not clear why the official international airline organizations permitted flights over the greater area of Donetsk. It appears the pilot of flight ML017 requested the Ukrainian air control permission to ascent to 36,000 feet. Kiev air control replied this was not necessary.

Posted by: Oui | Jul 18 2014 15:21 utc | 222

Well, at least at this haunt, I believe we have a consensus, so can you please change the blog post picture to a Blame America button versus a Blame Russia button? If not, perhaps I'll have to do it at my blog for some semblance of balance.

Also, looking at the replies to this post, I feel proud to have been labeled the "residential" clown, because to be differentiated from this nutty crowd is the greatest compliment I could ever receive. Talk about sending in the clowns, the comments to this blog post reveal they've come out of the woodwork.

Send In The Clowns

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Jul 18 2014 15:58 utc | 223

You have a blog. We get it.

Posted by: Pat Bateman | Jul 18 2014 16:03 utc | 224

We should report the blog of this troll to wordpress so they will close it.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 18 2014 16:13 utc | 225

@220 jsore quote "As to actually thinking that there will be a real investigation by some sort of independent panel of experts, you really have to be either a non-American or a fucking nimrod to think that."

i agree with you here.. this is the same deal as 9-11.. there will be no real investigation.. over and out..

on another note, i suspect that there will be an announcement by monday night that will be a pretext for more war.. the announcement will be full of lies which is one of the main tools of wars.

Posted by: james | Jul 18 2014 16:19 utc | 226

Russia doesn't bear any responsibility in this tragic accident.

- Many Asia Airlines weeks ago had changed their route to avoid overflying this war zone. Malaysian Airlines has not.

- The Ukrainian government has given no warning to Civil Aviation to warn Airlines about overflying on this area.
The question to ask: Was it just negligence of a deliberate omission from the Ukrainian government to allow such accident to happen as it would be immediately imputed to the rebels or to Russia?

- The rebels are known to be ready to shoot at planes passing over Doneshkt as they consider them as enemies planes. They did not imagine that a civil plane would pass on this area and they are not sufficiently equipped to make the distinction. If they shot on the plane, it was by mistake

As Putin said it, the blame lies on Europe and the USA that have allowed the Ukrainian government to escalate the war in East Ukraine indifferent to the suffering of the East Ukrainian civilians.

Now, this tragic event affect non-Ukrainian citizens. That changes the perspective as the EU and US now directly feel the consequences of the escalation they have condoned.
Of course they will try lay the blame on Russia and Ukrainian rebels but practically they have no other choice than to force the Ukrainian government to negotiate with the rebels.

Posted by: Virgile | Jul 18 2014 16:38 utc | 227

AWWWWWH, another fucking media slut leaves RT b/c it's "always Ukraine's fault".

Fuck off, Western Whore. Come and pick up your check in NYC, maybe you can join Pussy Riot.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 18 2014 16:48 utc | 228

Thanks @brian #78:


Here's a Russian military expert arguing it was incompetence of the Ukrainian army BUK untrained operators.

The Russian military expert Igor Korotchenko argues that the catastrophe in Donetsk was most likely caused by the incompetence and non-professionalism of the Ukrainian operators of the Buk systems during its testing after the battery was deployed in the new location. He said that the Ukrainian antiaircraft unit did not have any kind of proper training for the last 23 years since the collapse of Soviet Union. ...

According to the reports, the deviation of the flight MH-17 leading to the passage over the combat area was carried out on the request of the Ukrainian Dnipropetrovsk Air Space Control Centre. The key question is whether it was a tragic coincidence or deliberate provocative act…


http://orientalreview.org/2014/07/18/who-shot-down-the-malaysian-jet-over-ukraine/

Posted by: Virgile | Jul 18 2014 16:50 utc | 229

Ignore Cold and he will get bored and go away

Posted by: Massinissa | Jul 18 2014 16:51 utc | 230

JSorrentine

all these "sluts" are paid by US to leave rt? Wouldnt surprise me!

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 18 2014 16:55 utc | 231

And here is war criminal cunt Samantha Power confirming that she has a fucking reservation in hell:

U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Samantha Power said Friday that investigators could not rule out the possibility of Russian assistance in the crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.

"We assess Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 … was likely downed by a surface-to-air missile, an SA-11, operated from a separatist-held location in Eastern Ukraine," Power said at an emergency meeting of the U.N. Security Council.

Power added that investigators "cannot rule out technical assistance from Russian personnel" since it was unlikely pro-Russian separatists in Ukraine could have operated the SA-11 missile system on their own.

She concluded with an appeal to Russia to de-escalate tensions between Ukraine and the separatists.

"This appalling attack occurred in the context of a crisis that has been fueled by Russian support for separatists and by the Russian failure to follow through on its commitments," Power said.

"Russia can end this war," she added. "Russia must end this war."

Seriously, what kind of fucking soulless/worthless piece of fucking garbage do you have to be to in the US Establishment.

Non-Americans, just know that for every ONE Samantha Power there are at least ONE THOUSAND aspiring young fascist fucks who are scheming/lying/whoring their way up the ladder to be JUST LIKE SAMANTHA ONE DAY!!!

And don't think I'm exaggerating. If anything 1000 to 1 is TOO LOW of a ratio.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 18 2014 16:57 utc | 232

http://www.eturbonews.com/48079/ukraine-air-traffic-controller-suggests-kiev-military-shot-down-

"ETN received information from an air traffic controller in Kiev on Malaysia Airlines flight MH17."

and most importantly;

"ETN statement: The information in this article is independently confirmed and based on the statement of one airline controller and other tweets received."

In other words, someone has been doing their best to shoot down the tweets (no pun intended) from @spainbuca and destroy his reputation as an ATC at Borispol Airport in Kiev.

Posted by: RobertB | Jul 18 2014 17:06 utc | 233

Hysteria is the order of the day with the MSM......Expert opinions abound from the usual think tanks....Putin this and Putin that...Obama warns us about disinformation from outside sources...Please spare me the laughter.....

Posted by: georgeg | Jul 18 2014 17:07 utc | 234

@216

That was my first thought... wasn't there a report about a plane similar to the one that went down months ago being sighted in Israel? My money's on false flag, pure fabrication...

and no, this won't be a military war, US doesn't have stomach for going against Russia... they will use same dirty tricks they've been using... propaganda, mercs, Nazis, etc. attempting to isolate Russia (BRICS can't succeed you see)

Posted by: crone | Jul 18 2014 17:15 utc | 235

God, the writer of the second piece at Counterpunch today doesn't even question the validity of that leaked recording, ostensibly of Russian intelligence operatives discussing the downed airliner. Counterpunch editors are evidently as clueless as your average American.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 18 2014 17:35 utc | 236

@232 The goal is to isolate China. Has everyone forgotten our Asian pivot? Aside from all the traditional resource issues of the great game empires play if China decided to start selling "Panda" gadgets to the world and shut down Apple and other American companies, what could they do? With a functional BRICS American multinationals will have some real problems if China wanted to have health inspections at American factories.

The Chinese aren't that stupid, and South America has had it with the U.S. China's popularity in Africa is on the rise, and the U.S.'s days in the Middle East and Central Asia are numbered. Russia's relations with Europe severely weaken the U.S.'s military capabilities. We use Europe for transit. The old surface support fleet is gone. We can't operate without lackeys.

Putin should end NATO transit to Afghanistan after today's spectacle.

Posted by: NotTimothyGeithner | Jul 18 2014 17:38 utc | 237

http://www.eturbonews.com/48079/ukraine-air-traffic-controller-suggests-kiev-military-shot-down- ETN article is very interesting, since they explicitly state that they have confirmed the source. And no one can say ETN is "pro-Russia". Seems the @spainbuca story is not as simple as I thought. Now I´m not sure about him one way or another. The Spanish Consulate in Kiev says there is no Spanish national working at ATC at Borispol, that all people working there are all Ukrainian. In any case I apologize for the earlier rant. I guess we'll have to wait and see .

Posted by: Alejandro | Jul 18 2014 18:12 utc | 238

A general note: My impression that there has as yet be no significant fallout for the rebels or Russia from the downing of MH17. The general impression seems to be that who is responsible is unknown. In this, that Russia is considered a suspect works in our favor, I think:the more suspects there are, the less bad feelings are directed at the rebels. I think that Putin's government has succeeded in distancing itself from the rebels in most people's minds.

The hunta's public image, in contrast, has been damaged. Because of the news blackout, most people didn't know that there is a real war going on. Now that they know that there is a war, they are shocked that the junta let commercial planes fly into it. (Of course, this is just another example of Yukie incompetence. The Yukies were the last once to (accidentally) shoot down an airliner, and they have missiles capable of downing an airliner in the warzone, so they should not have allowed commercial flights there for that reason alone. Of course, the other possibility is that the Yukies sent MH17 into the warzone deliberately.)

If a country lets commercial flights into its air zone, it is under obligation to protect those flights, even if there's a civil war going on. This dimension was lost on the junta, because they think they can do no wrong, because they are Yukies. They never make mistakes; whatever bad things happen in Yukieland are all Russia's fault.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 18 2014 18:50 utc | 239

Junta False flag op, "recordings" 'edited' - prepared 16.7.14!
http://fox-talleyrand.livejournal.com/96662.html

Posted by: Moscovite | Jul 18 2014 20:12 utc | 240

Who Ordered MH17 Flight to Lower Altitude?

Full flight history for Malaysia Airlines flight MH17

In the website flightradar24.com one can find the data of the history of recent Malaysia Air MH17 travels across Europe. Just briefly looking at the data, one can run the recording of each particular flight, its path, speed amd altitude.

Earliet flights in July, assigned altitude was 33,000 up to central Ukraine and before entering East Ukraine the Malaysia Boeing 777 climbed higher to 35,000 feet! Sometimes as early as passing Kiev, or Dnepropetrovsk or shortly before reaching Donetsk.

ALTITUDE CHANGE

On the previous day July 16, the assigned flight altitude was lowered to 31,000 ft and upon reaching Ukraine border was adjusted to 33,000 ft. On the fateful day of Thursday July 17, this same flight pattern with altitude of 31,000 ft changing to 33,000 ft. Coincidental?

On Dutch news broadcast I heard the request from pilot MH17 to ascent to 35,000 ft was denied by Kiev Air Control.

Posted by: Oui | Jul 18 2014 20:16 utc | 241

Ukraine's Security Service Has Confiscated Air Traffic Control Recordings With Malaysian Jet
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-18/ukraines-security-service-has-confiscated-air-traffic-control-recordings-malaysian-j

Posted by: Moscovite | Jul 18 2014 20:16 utc | 242

How do you explain Russian (!) media reporting excitedly that DPR shot An-26 on 18 July exactly at the time when MH17 was shot?

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741164
http://ria.ru/world/20140717/1016409306.html
http://lifenews.ru/news/136801

How do you explain that just days before the MH17 crash they also shot around 10 other aircrafts in this area? And out of these 10 in at least one case (An-26) DPR announced that it was shot using "Buk"?

http://www.vz.ru/news/2014/7/14/695525.html

How do you explain that just before the MH17 crash DPR excitedly reported that they just got their hands on "Buk"?

http://www.ntv.ru/novosti/1085256/

How do you explain that just 4 days before the MH17 crash Kurgyanin announced that excellent Russian specialists have just arrived to DPR to bring the "Buks" to usable state?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iF0kHsEOIw

Posted by: Timur | Jul 18 2014 20:26 utc | 243

@Timur #243:

None of that matters, since if this was not a Ukie false flag operation, the Ukies would not have released as evidence of rebel responsibility for the downing of the plain a clearly fake recording. Also, just half an hour before the plain was downed, the junta announced that the rebels have Buk systems.

Since this false flag op was done by Ukies, it was very sloppy.

The only countries that are insisting at this point that the rebels downed the plane are Ukieland and the US. The Netherlands and Britain say that that is unknown at this point. That tells you who was involved in the op.

The rebels do not deny that they have a Buk system in their possession. What they do claim is that it is unusable. The reports you cite that state otherwise amount to nothing more than hearsay. It is well known that Kurgyanin is a provocateur who works to undermine Strelkov and the independence of Novorossya.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 18 2014 20:59 utc | 244

Russian media have announced that DPR has "Buk" on 29 June for the first time. On 14 July DPR has announced that they have used "Buk" to shoot down the An-26. And that An-26 indeed fell down. Yesterday they announced they shot down another An-26. And it fell down as well, it just came out to be a Boeing.

Posted by: Timur | Jul 18 2014 21:11 utc | 245

American military experts themselves have said that it is highly unlikely that the rebels are using Buks. All kinds of nonsense gets published in the press of any country.

Stop trolling.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 18 2014 21:30 utc | 246

Washington Post opinion page offers a full-throated demand for total isolation of Russia from the world economy. Accepts unproven allegations made by Kiev regime as evidence. Claims massive transport of soldiers and heavy military equipment this past week from Russia into east Ukraine is established fact. Makes case that - no matter who was operating the system - the simple origin of the surface-to-air missile system (i.e. Russian-built) is enough to hold Russia totally responsible.

New York Times less in WWIII mode, but suggests it is time to end the Ukraine problem, hinting but not actually saying that "the West" should intervene to defeat rebels in E Ukraine. The Times prints statements from Obama and Powers noting that the assessment is that the plane was downed by a surface-to-air missile fired from "a separatist-held location in eastern Ukraine." Powers cannot rule out "technical assistance by Russian personnel”. Obama does allow that no one yet knows what happened.

Across media spectrum: a lot of baseless speculation with very little technical information. Some stories acknowledge that the BUK missile system is complex and requires a great deal of training to operate. Other stories (i.e. in Financial Times) claim that the system is bedrock simple and anyone could use it.

Posted by: jayc | Jul 18 2014 21:34 utc | 247

on carlos the ATC who tweeted on MH17 incident
Vladimir Suchan
Yes, his twitter account has been removed. Ans the Spanish Embassy almost makes it sound as if no such a person ever existed.

Ukraine air traffic controllers instructed MH17 to fly lower, MAS says - See more at: http://www.themalaymailonline.com/malaysia/article/ukraine-traffic-controllers-instructed-mh17-to-fly-lower-mas-says#sthash.wJq9Ujan.dpuf

Posted by: brian | Jul 19 2014 0:42 utc | 248

how do u explain someone like Timur?

person troll CIA robot?

Posted by: brian | Jul 19 2014 0:44 utc | 249

Timur is a new troll..he got wind of this site and decided to descend, like Pravy sektor, and cause havok

Posted by: brian | Jul 19 2014 0:46 utc | 250

Flight MH-17 veered 300 miles off typical (usual, every other day) course- WHY?
The crashed MH17 flight took a route 300 miles to the north of its usual path, an aviation expert has said.
Robert Mark, a commercial pilot who edits Aviation International News Safety magazine, said that most Malaysia Airlines flights from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur normally travelled along a route significantly further south than the plane which crashed.
Malaysia Airlines has insisted its plane travelled on an "approved route" used by many other carriers.
But Mr Mark said: "I can only tell you as a commercial pilot myself that if we had been routed that way, with what's been going on in the Ukraine and the Russian border over the last few weeks and months, I would never have accepted that route.
"I went into the FlightAware system, which we all use these days to see where airplanes started and where they tracked, and I looked back at the last two weeks' worth of MH17 flights, which was this one.
"And the flight today tracked very, very much further north into the Ukraine than the other previous flights did ... there were MH17 versions that were 300 miles south of where this one was."
Records of recent MH17 flights on the FlightAware appear to bear out Mr Mark's claim, with earlier flights significantly further south than the flight that crashed.
Mr Mark’s intervention came amid mounting questions over why passenger jets were flying over the war zone three months after pilots were warned to avoid it.
Aviation safety authorities in America and Europe warned pilots in April about potential risks flying in or near Ukraine airspace.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10975524/Crashed-MH17-flight-was-300-miles-off-typical-course.html
http://pennyforyourthoughts2.blogspot.com.au/2014/07/israels-brutal-gaza-invasion-as-all.html

Posted by: brian | Jul 19 2014 0:48 utc | 251

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUltrf8n_vA&list=UUQ7a7Q4EN-OY1mdyanRs-3w

Chaff "AA countermeasures" visible in MH17 crash site. WTF

Posted by: Alejandro | Jul 19 2014 1:27 utc | 252

back in june, NATO gets on the Fracking bandwagon
http://rt.com/news/167260-greenpeace-russian-fracking-plot/#.U6Q4dVm5Gdg.twitter
fracking gets militarised?

Posted by: brian | Jul 19 2014 1:56 utc | 253

Meaconing could have gotten the plane to go off course.

Posted by: lysias | Jul 19 2014 2:16 utc | 254

I am not sure if anyone else has posted this, but it appears the Youtube clip of the intercepted conversation that is being held up as the smoking gun was made the day before the plane went down, according to the metadata.
http://rghost.net/private/56950510/78d787acfabcaf840cfa213e7221a060?comments_page=2

This is significant because any computer with a connection to the internet would have an accurate time clock, so the excuse that the time had not been set properly on the computer it was edited on does not hold water. This was not a video clip either, so there is no way to explain it by arguing the camera is was shot on had the wrong time.

The time from the metadata therefore shows when the clip was created.

Posted by: Shingo | Jul 19 2014 2:53 utc | 255

brian

WOuldnt it be better to respond to Timmur's videos?

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 19 2014 6:58 utc | 256

so, they're looting the bodies now and destroying evidence

you must be so proud to support such scum

Posted by: Another Jeff | Jul 19 2014 9:32 utc | 257

Another Jeff

Are you retarded racist? There are experts on the ground working now, how can anyone destroy anything? Moron.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 19 2014 9:42 utc | 258

yeah, the ones that have been sent away by drunken separatists?

Posted by: Another Jeff | Jul 19 2014 10:05 utc | 259

Another Jeff

You retarded moron:
http://ria.ru/world/20140719/1016674426.html

You see? Or are you afraid of the truth racist!?

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 19 2014 10:15 utc | 260

I'm not trolling. I'm just reading Russian media and DPR's VK and can't understand how they can claim "DPR had no weapons able to reach 10 km" just 30 minutes after they celebrated shooting down An-26 (that came out to be MH17) using "Buk" by DPR (and two other aircrafts a few days before).

Posted by: Timur | Jul 19 2014 10:50 utc | 261

Loss of Antonov AN-12 Would Match Date Fake Audio

That would fix the date of the audio recording the Kiev junta used in the false flag operation of July 17.

Ukrainian Antonov-26 military transport plane shot down by rocket

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) July 14, 2014 — A Ukrainian military transport plane [Antonov AN-12 turboprop] was shot down along the country's eastern border with Russia but all eight people aboard managed to bail out safely, the defense ministry said.

Posted by: Oui | Jul 19 2014 12:26 utc | 262

I'm not trolling. I'm just reading Russian media and DPR's VK and can't understand how they can claim "DPR had no weapons able to reach 10 km" just 30 minutes after they celebrated shooting down An-26 (that came out to be MH17) using "Buk" by DPR (and two other aircrafts a few days before).

Posted by: Timur | Jul 19, 2014 6:50:02 AM | 261

How dare you question the Sherlock Holmes at this space who have already solved this crime in record time.

Do you not have default Blame America software deployed on your operating system? If not, I'm sure some of the fine commentators here will provide you a free download.

How much you want to make a bet we'll never know what happened to this aircraft to make it crash just as we'll never know what happened to the Malaysian aircraft that disappeared into thin air several months prior. Things are happening so rapidly now, there's no time for investigation — you'll just have to guess rather than doddling around asking the right questions. That's why the default software I mentioned is so important — it allows you to keep up with the latest crisis, coming one a day now before too long, without getting bogged down trying to figure it all out. It reminds me of the days of yore in Southern America when a woman was raped the default response was "it was a Nigger that done it" without fail except for the one exception when it was "it was the Jew that done it" as witnessed in the Leo Frank case.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Jul 19 2014 13:37 utc | 263

@ 103
"Hopefully, since the area is rebel controlled and Russians are already on scene, it will be possible to prevent the Amis, not to mention the Ukies, from hijacking the investigation."

Ironically, if Russia does have any control over the crash scene, that fact alone will serve to convince US public opinion that they had to be behind the crash.

Posted by: Snake Arbusto | Jul 20 2014 6:13 utc | 264

@Snake Arbusto #264:

The RF has exhibited its signature restraint, and has made no effort to enter the crash scene.

What has happened is that the freedom fighters in control of the area are extremely frustrated and angry that the expert investigators are not coming to the crash site but are lounging around in Kiev, while the Western media report that the rebels are not letting the expert investigators come to the crime scene, echoing endlessly a shameless lie made by the Kyiv junta, as the Western media invariably do.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 20 2014 6:32 utc | 265

@Demian Which is an obvious lie, as there are numerous photos published by the OSCE team from the crash site. The problem is that there is not single site but remains are spread over area of several kilometers and separatist groups operating in the are give OSCE selective access to some of them, denying access to others.

Posted by: Timur | Jul 20 2014 8:21 utc | 266

@Timur @266:

Hello! Is your brain still alive?

The OSCE team are just military observers. They have no competence to investigate a jetliner crash site. And the Kyiv junta is doing everything it can to keep the qualified airplane crash investigators in Kyev, instead of letting them go to the crash site and do their job.

The government of the DPR has done everything in its power to make it possible for international investigators of airplane disasters to do their job, but for some reason those expert investigators are hanging around in Kyiv, instead of doing their job and going to the crash site.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 20 2014 8:54 utc | 267

Timur

What lie? As Demian said the experts havent arrived yet which have infuriated the "rebels".

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 20 2014 9:30 utc | 268

@Demian earlier post …

Dutch News Uses Anne Applebaum as Putin Expert

It didn't take long for Dutch newspapers and national television broadcast editors to locate U.S. neocon 'experts' to tell us how we should think and handle the investigation into the crash of Malaysian passenger jet MH-17 in Ukraine.

Posted by: Oui | Jul 20 2014 12:18 utc | 269

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