Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 17, 2014

Plane Down In Ukraine - Facts? Who Needs Facts?

A Malaysian Boeing 777 with 295 people on board crashed today near Shakhtarsk 50 kilometer east of Donetsk, Ukraine.

The appropriate key for "western" journalist to press now is this one.

Over the now coming propaganda shit-storm the recent defeat of the coup-government troops will likely stay unreported.

Posted by b on July 17, 2014 at 12:55 PM | Permalink

Comments
« previous page | next page »

Posted by: HAHA | Jul 17, 2014 7:29:29 PM | 96


the US is already demanding the country the plane fell in does the investigation..
But since the Kiev junta is implicated in the atrocity, that means a conflict of interests!

Posted by: brian | Jul 17, 2014 7:37:25 PM | 101

@99

Exactly, see @96

Posted by: HAHA | Jul 17, 2014 7:38:34 PM | 102

@HAHA #96:

Rebels have called for a cease fire of several days to do the things you mention. Russian could insist that it is observed.

True, that's not a lot of time to investigate a major airplane crash, but hopefully at least how the explosion occurred could be determined. (I think there had to have been a mid-air explosion, since debris is widely scattered.)

Hopefully, since the area is rebel controlled and Russians are already on scene, it will be possible to prevent the Amis, not to mention the Ukies, from hijacking the investigation.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 17, 2014 7:40:12 PM | 103

@100

Ditto see @96

Posted by: HAHA | Jul 17, 2014 7:40:27 PM | 104

@102

I do not think that anyone that is involved would be considered credible. That includes; Russia, US, EU and all of their minions. Someone possibly from Malaysia would have more credibility than any of the other.

Posted by: HAHA | Jul 17, 2014 7:43:56 PM | 105

HAHA #102:

Why wouldn't Russia be credible? It had no reason to down the plane.

Sorry, that remark strikes me as Russophobic.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 17, 2014 7:46:36 PM | 106

@105

No Russophobic, impartial.

This would prevent the junta, claiming that Russia falsified the evidence. And they will! Guaranteed if Russia is the only one investigating ...

Posted by: HAHA | Jul 17, 2014 7:50:06 PM | 107

http://rt.com/news/173636-buk-malaysian-plane-crash/
Kiev deployed powerful surface-to-air missile systems to E. Ukraine ahead of the Malaysian plane crash

Posted by: brian | Jul 17, 2014 7:52:08 PM | 108

Well they got their 'false flag' thing (as I predicted) ...now let us see how NATO reacts...are their troops in the Ukraine yet, they are due this month.

Posted by: oldskpetic | Jul 17, 2014 7:54:13 PM | 109

Posted by: HAHA | Jul 17, 2014 7:43:56 PM | 104


here we disagree...russia has far more credibility than the USA let alone the Junta

Posted by: brian | Jul 17, 2014 7:55:50 PM | 110

@106:

I believe that Obama has called for an "international" investigation. I'm willing to take the chance that if the Germans and the Dutch were involved say, they would keep the Americans honest. I could be wrong of course.

The Ukies don't have the know-how to do any investigation; plus, they don't control the territory. So the US and Germans should make sure that the Russians don't pull any tricks.

Best would be for the Russians to do it alone, but you're right, then "the West" would scream bloody murder.

The rebels should give the Russians the flight recorders. If they give them to the Malaysians, the Malaysians will hand them over to the Amis.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 17, 2014 7:57:27 PM | 111

Strelkov and his stavka really ought to be organising rendition "snatch squads" targetting junta decisionmakers...

Posted by: Cortes | Jul 17, 2014 7:58:19 PM | 112

@109

Agree! However, a Russian investigation with transparency by involving a multinational team will do even better!

Posted by: HAHA | Jul 17, 2014 7:59:38 PM | 113


The Ukrainian military has several batteries of Buk surface-to-air missile systems with at least 27 launchers, capable of bringing down high-flying jets, in the Donetsk region where the Malaysian passenger plane crashed, Russian Defense Ministry said.
READ RT'S LIVE UPDATES ON MALAYSIAN PLANE CRASH
“According to the Russian Defense Ministry information, units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine located in the crash-site are equipped with anti-aircraft missile systems of "Buk-M1” ... These complexes in their tactical and technical characteristics are capable of detecting air targets at ranges of up to 160 kilometers and hit them at full altitude range at a distance of over 30 kilometers,” the ministry’s statement reads as cited by Ria.
Earlier, Itar-Tass and Interfax news agencies were citing a source familiar with the issue, who said that another battery of Buk systems is currently being prepared for shipment to Donetsk region from the Ukrainian city of Kharkov.
The Donetsk region remains the scene of heavy fighting between government troops and the forces of the opposition, which refused to recognize the regime change in Kiev and demand federalization.
A Malaysian Airlines aircraft en route from Amsterdam to Malaysia crashed in Eastern Ukraine – not far from the Russian border – on Thursday.

...

Chances are high that the Malaysian plane was really downed by the Ukrainian anti-aircraft defense, Yury Karash, pilot and aviation expert, told RT.
“A Boeing-777 is an extremely reliable piece of machinery. Modern planes don’t just crash with no reason,” he said. “Let us recall how a Ukrainian missile downed Russian TU-154 aircraft ten years ago. I can’t completely exclude the possibility the Boeing-777 was also hit by a missile.”
“I don’t know who could’ve shot it down. But I can allege that it was most likely the Ukrainian armed forces: simply because its military – anti-aircraft defense, in particular – are, unfortunately, unqualified. As judging by the overall state of the Ukrainian armed forces, insufficient attention has been paid to their training,” Karash added.

Reports in the Western media hurried to blame the self-defense forces of the People’s Republic of Donetsk for bringing the plane down.

The claims were denied by the representatives of the Donetsk People’s Republic, saying that it’s the Ukrainian military, which destroyed the aircraft.

“We simply don’t have such air defense systems. Our man-portable air defense systems have a firing range 3,000 - 4,000 meters. The Boeing was flying at a much higher altitude,” Sergey Kavtaradze, special representative for the prime minister of the Donetsk People’s Republic, explained.

Kavtaradze also expressed condolences to the relatives of all of those who lost their lives in the tragedy.
IHS Jane’s Defense analyst, Nick de Larrinaga, also shared the belief that the self-defense forces lack the capability to bring the Malaysian plane down.

“At normal cruising altitude a civilian passenger aircraft would be out of the range of the sort of manned portable air (defense) systems that we have seen proliferate in rebel hands in east Ukraine,” he said in a statement.

But the aircraft would be within range of Buk or other medium-range surface-to-air missile systems, he stressed.

“Both Russia and Ukraine have such SAM systems in their inventories,” the expert added.

It seems unlikely that the self-defense forces could’ve used Buk surface-to-air missile systems to down the Malaysian plane, retired Brig. Gen. Kevin Ryan, the director of the Defense and Intelligence Project at the Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs, said.

“It takes a lot of training and a lot of coordination to fire one of these and hit something,” he told CNN. “This is not the kind of weapon a couple of guys are going to pull out of a garage and fire.”

According to Ryan, if the plane was really taken down then it was done by a professional military force.

http://rt.com/news/173636-buk-malaysian-plane-crash/

Posted by: brian | Jul 17, 2014 8:00:11 PM | 114

@110

Most likely, the US wants to get involved to gum up the works. Nevertheless, as everyone does not trust anyone else directly involved, I would think that everyone must be involved, especially China. I have not seen the manifest. however, were Chinese nationals on the plane?

Posted by: HAHA | Jul 17, 2014 8:10:07 PM | 115

Posted by: Demian | Jul 17, 2014 7:57:27 PM | 110


'international' as in 'international community'? which means the gaggle of US servant states political patsies

Posted by: brian | Jul 17, 2014 8:11:37 PM | 116

Posted by: HAHA | Jul 17, 2014 7:59:38 PM | 112

of course! that would have to satisfy both sides of the digital curtain

Posted by: brian | Jul 17, 2014 8:12:48 PM | 117

"Ukrainian authorities on Thursday declared the east of the country a no-fly zone after a Malaysian airliner carrying 295 people crashed in the volatile region, European flight safety body Eurocontrol said."

Why wasn't done earlier?

Posted by: Virgile | Jul 17, 2014 8:13:37 PM | 118


Posted by: brian | Jul 17, 2014 8:00:11 PM | 113

BUK are surface to air missiles!

why would Kiev send BUK to the war zone? when the resistance doesnt have anything theyd be needed to strikea?

Posted by: brian | Jul 17, 2014 8:18:36 PM | 119

Posted by: Demian | Jul 17, 2014 7:57:27 PM | 110


KIEVs junta is also a suspect!

Posted by: brian | Jul 17, 2014 8:19:19 PM | 120

@115

Such investigations are customarily conducted under the veil of secrecy, vis a vis, "national security!" That form of subterfuge can not be tolerated in this context! This investigation will have to be open to the scientific community for scrutiny --actual transparency, which means that the culprit will be the one that "doth protest too much" to such an open investigation ...


Posted by: HAHA | Jul 17, 2014 8:28:23 PM | 121

the 'shot down' narrative emanates fromm the Kiev Junta (which the MSM keeps calling a 'government')

Posted by: brian | Jul 17, 2014 8:37:25 PM | 122

for an thoughts on the LH17 incident, this FB page

https://www.facebook.com/vladimir.suchan

Posted by: brian | Jul 17, 2014 8:39:52 PM | 123

a spanish aittraffic contoller in Ukraine is tweeting on this

https://twitter.com/spainbuca
names carlos

Posted by: brian | Jul 17, 2014 8:50:33 PM | 124

George Hatcher Sr. @GeorgeHatcher · 34m #MH17 Headline: Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash: 'Six Britons, 23 US citizens and 80 children

Posted by: brian | Jul 17, 2014 8:52:30 PM | 125

George Hatcher Sr. @GeorgeHatcher · 2h Dutch press conference on #MH17 now says 298 were aboard: 15 crew and 283 passengers.\

George Hatcher Sr. @GeorgeHatcher · 3h #MH17 NOW All flights in eastern Ukraine have now been barred from the area. Now they tell us.

George Hatcher Sr. @GeorgeHatcher · 7h Ukraine Gov. confirms #MA17 crashed, shot down by a BUK surface-to-air missile. Whose? Why would #MA fly passengers over warzone?@susanjzach

(now that the manourver of a plane over a war zone has had its effect...they close off the airspace)

Posted by: brian | Jul 17, 2014 8:54:12 PM | 126

✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 4h En el informe se indica de donde abría salido el misil, y se especifica que no proviene de las autodefensa en las zonas rebeldes Reply Replied to 0 times RetweetRetweetedRetweeted 409 times 409 FavoriteFavoritedFavorited 57 times 57 More
Embed Tweet ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 4h El informe oficial firmado por las autoridades militares de control de kiev ya lo tiene el gobierno,,,, , derribado Reply Replied to 0 times RetweetRetweetedRetweeted 229 times 229 FavoriteFavoritedFavorited 33 times 33 More
Embed Tweet Retweeted by ✈ Carlos.
RT en Español @ActualidadRT · 4h ÚLTIMA HORA Controlador aéreo: El Boeing 777 "voló escoltado por 2 cazas ucranianos" antes de desaparecer #MH17 http://es.rt.com/yW7 View summary Reply Replied to 0 times RetweetRetweetedRetweeted 605 times 605 FavoriteFavoritedFavorited 105 times 105 More

Embed Tweet ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 4h Control militar entrega ahora mismo de forma oficial que el avión fue derribado por misil Reply Replied to 0 times RetweetRetweetedRetweeted 240 times 240 FavoriteFavoritedFavorited 35 times 35 More

Embed Tweet ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 6h Se cierra el espacio aéreo, por miedo a más derribos Reply Replied to 0 times RetweetRetweetedRetweeted 327 times 327 FavoriteFavoritedFavorited 53 times 53 More

Embed Tweet ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 6h Se cierra el espacio aéreo Reply Replied to 0 times RetweetRetweetedRetweeted 140 times 140 FavoriteFavoritedFavorited 22 times 22 More

Embed Tweet ✈ Carlos. @spainbuca · 6h Los cazas volaron cerca del 777, hasta 3 minutos antes de desaparecer de los radares, solo 3 minutos

Posted by: brian | Jul 17, 2014 9:00:30 PM | 127

@brian #118:

The junta is by far the most likely suspect since it alone (along with NATO) had a motive, and it has a track record of accidentally shooting down airliners (not to mention causing disasters in general, like Chernobyl). (I can't believe that the US isn't even considering the Yukies as possibly responsible, given that the last time a military shot an airliner down, the Ukies did it. I'm sure US news isn't reporting that. At least the Guardian did.)

Posted by: Demian | Jul 17, 2014 9:04:23 PM | 128

As troops used to say in Vietnam, "BOHICA" which is "bend over, here it comes again." I've seen too many false flags pushing us into war after war in order for American oil companies to get rich.

Posted by: Bob In Portland | Jul 17, 2014 9:04:31 PM | 129

@ BrevigBay #55:

With the comment from the Ukrainian air traffic controller, we must countenance the very real possibility that there are elements of the Ukrainian military loyal to Tymoshenko which are responsible for the recent shoot down of military aircraft and MH17, rather than pro-Russian separatists.

In order to blame this internecine conflict on Putin, it is also quite likely that US neocons and their military advisers are supporting Poroshenko and Tymoshenko.

Posted by: Fec | Jul 17, 2014 9:06:01 PM | 130

BTW, while the investigation is underway, I expect that the junta (IMF/US-NATO/Kiev) will be smuggling in arms and mercenaries. I would not put anything past these reptiles.

Obviously, the Ukrainian army is no longer interested in this weekend warrior shit. The Russian culture from eastern Ukraine actually shoots back and has developed the skills for hunting Nazis down like rats.

The only ones that want this war to continue is the IMF/US empire of funny money and degenerate gamblers and of course the Nazis from Dracula country --the Carpathians.

Posted by: HAHA | Jul 17, 2014 9:08:05 PM | 131

...And Israel invades Gaza. Coincidence? Opportunism?

Posted by: Maracatu | Jul 17, 2014 9:25:00 PM | 132

The Kyiv post has another one of its ridiculous "intercepted" phone calls: as if anyone in Russian intelligence would talk about anything serious on an open phone line.

That makes it more likely that this was a false flag op, possibly run with little US supervision, not an accident.

In any case, the US military isn't claiming that it has proof that rebels have Buk missiles.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 17, 2014 9:36:23 PM | 133

George Hatcher Sr. @GeorgeHatcher · 31m #MH17 Also 154 Dutch, 27 Australian, 38 Malaysian - 15 malaysian crew, 11 Indonesian, 4 German, 4 Belgians, 3 Philippines and 1 Canadian,

Posted by: brian | Jul 17, 2014 9:44:51 PM | 134

Posted by: Demian | Jul 17, 2014 9:04:23 PM | 126


why should the neocons blame their puppet, Porky?

Posted by: brian | Jul 17, 2014 9:46:41 PM | 135

Regarding the factionalism of the Ukraine military, the distinction must be made that Poroshenko is primarily interested in deescalating tension with Putin in order to facilitate existing business relationships, whereas Tymoshenko is bent on genocide of ethnic Russians in Ukraine.

Posted by: Fec | Jul 17, 2014 9:47:03 PM | 136

Netanyahoo gets his wet-dream wish: Tragic international distraction/diversion to Israeli genocidal event in Gaza, which has been relegated to page 2 news.

Another question: since increase in Ukraine crisis, does anyone know if other commercial airlines have been circumventing Ukrainian airspace because of the danger. If so, how was this Malaysian airliner allowed to fly right into a war zone? Technological trickery by entity such as ICTS?

Posted by: easy e | Jul 17, 2014 9:49:17 PM | 137

Jesus Christ, I can't really believe that anyone here or with half a fucking neurons would NOT AUTOMATICALLY believe that the US and its Neo-Nazi ass-lickers are at fault here.

Please before anyone wastes anymore fucking time wondering just who could have done such a crime let's all remember that if it wasn't for the US-backed putsch to BEGIN WITH there would be no neo-nazi junta controlling Ukraine right now so this and EVERY SINGLE subsequent murder should be laid at the feet of the war criminal US.

Here's another retarded video "proving" that the pro-Russians did it .

I mean, just how many fucking murderous lies will the world swallow before they REFLEXIVELY understand that there is NO NEED to cast suspicions very wide when a mass-fucking-murderer and his minions are standing in the room.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 17, 2014 9:50:51 PM | 138

ISIS is responsible obviously. The Saudis hoped to provoke a nuclear war between Russia and the US that would lead to the Second Coming of the Mahdi, who in an alliance with the CIA and the Illuminati would drive up the price of oil and unite the Ummah in a new Caliphate based on silver, the only currency that can defeat World Jewry as Ezra Pound explained.

Posted by: Louis Proyect | Jul 17, 2014 9:50:55 PM | 139

See video of Ukrainian minister of internal affairs strongly suggest that the junta's army is in need of HELP! He said this with a look of desperation on his face, "NATO should provide us with precision weapons, air support, and NATO should not begin ground operations in Donbas!"

Additionally, may want to keep an eye on flights from northern Iraq to Ukraine. They just need to get rid of the turbines and fake beards and slip on a striped blue and white t-shirt, WALA! Fresh junta forces! BTW they can keep the masks.

Posted by: HAHA | Jul 17, 2014 9:56:18 PM | 140

b, please fix the link here if you can.

My guess is you are guaranteed to lose readers on this important issue with this messed up layout.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 17, 2014 9:57:02 PM | 141

From Stephen F. Cohen at The Nation in June:

Yulia Tymoshenko—a former prime minister, titular head of Yatsenyuk’s party and runner-up in the May presidential election—was overheard wishing she could “exterminate them all [Ukrainian Russians] with atomic weapons.”

Posted by: Fec | Jul 17, 2014 9:58:09 PM | 142

Posted by: Louis Proyect | Jul 17, 2014 9:50:55 PM | 137


look what the cat dragged in!

Posted by: brian | Jul 17, 2014 10:01:51 PM | 143

My heart sank on seeing this.

We must wait for the evidence, and every premature attempt to pin this on Russia or the Donbas resistance must be loudly contradicted in down in every forum.

The US press is already hard at work spinning this tragedy into an excuse to allow West Ukrainian Nazis to kill even more people on the ground.

And people are absolutely right to be suspicious of all sorts of scenarios here. The CIA is running the show in the Ukraine, and will stop at nothing to secure victory there. There is no twisted act of violence too immoral - as they have proved time and time again.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 17, 2014 10:12:49 PM | 144

@137

Holy shit, you read our minds!!!

I mean, what better situation than the fucking murder of 300 people to showcase that incisive and razor-sharp Proyect wit!

Really, it's not just that you sound like SUCH an intellectually impotent fucking douchebag that you've finally lost the ability to discern which events/situations would call for interjections of your lame ass attempts at humor, it's really that those attempts suck so badly. Really.

I mean, if people want to watch a romantic comedy they don't pop in a video of a frustrated old man repeatedly massaging his softie on the thighs of an embarrassed young starlet who keeps telling him "it's ok, we can again try later" for two fucking hours.

Likewise, if people want to read posts with insight/humor/wit/intelligence they don't read your MOA posts because said people can almost feel the stubble of your mental scrotum abrasively scraping across each word that you've typed, the moist flaccidity of your mind pawing and nudging and pawing at their eyes. Can you try again later? You probably shouldn't but we know you will.

Just stop.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 17, 2014 10:15:37 PM | 145

God fucking damnit, I hate the fucking mass murdering criminal scum in this country.

Hillary says plane "probably had to be shot down" by rebels in Ukraine.

Seriously, not a fucking minute - not ONE FUCKING MINUTE - goes by in this fucking insane asylum where a rational/conscientious persons' sense of sanity isn't challenged by the murderous lies and lies and lies of these fucking war criminals.

Jesus fucking christ.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 17, 2014 10:21:01 PM | 146

@brian I know cats. They may lick their own assholes clean, but they still have better sense to put something like Louis Proyect in their mouths.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 17, 2014 10:36:17 PM | 147

@JSorenntine

" feel the stubble of your mental scrotum abrasively scraping across each word that you've typed"

LOL, Classic

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 17, 2014 10:37:09 PM | 148

@JSorrentine #144:

The media might be able to make most Americans believe that narrative, but I don't think it will work with Europeans. I don't even think those traditional Russia haters, the Poles, will buy it.

I don't know if I'll get around to watching those "intercepted" phone conversations, but they really are the last straw. Any European with half a brain should be able to see through that. My impression is that German media are to embarrassed to even mention them.

And if the US/NATO aren't going to be able to convince Europeans that the rebels were responsible – Cossacks? Really? – this may backfire. Most of the victims were Dutch, and the Dutch aren't that easy to fool, IMO.

Maybe Oui can tell us how this is being received in Holland.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 17, 2014 10:38:30 PM | 149

BUSTED! Ukraine Caught Trying to 'Frame Russia' for Shooting Down Malaysia Flight MH17!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28MrASx-RiM

Timestamp on the video are from before the plane crashed. So not only is the almost laughably fake video an obvious fabrication, the Kiev regime knew beforehand that the plane was going to be shot down and giving the world definitive proof of their guilt.

Posted by: Jen Psaki | Jul 17, 2014 10:50:02 PM | 150


http://airflightdisaster.com/index.php/mh17-public-statements/

Posted by: brian | Jul 17, 2014 10:52:56 PM | 151

@144

We never left the Dark Ages. The majority of human beings are incapable of rational and critical thought. It is the very nature of the oligarchical system that humans have have been organized around since the end of the Ice Age. This system that has been our greatest success is the very thing that will be the undoing of most humans.

We are at a fork in human cultural evolution where those that are incapable of creative independent thought and can only parrot what they are trained to believe will be getting of of the bus --permanently.

They are already extinct, they just don't know it yet. I do not get mad at them, any more than I blame Neanderthal for not sticking around. They are at the end of their evolutionary development. There is nothing you can say to stimulate their ability to think, it is just not there.

Posted by: HAHA | Jul 17, 2014 10:54:39 PM | 152

Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 17, 2014 10:21:01 PM | 144


chill out

sunnis are led by the media to hate president Assad with the same venom...and then they go off on jihad

Posted by: brian | Jul 17, 2014 10:56:49 PM | 153

a bad month for the dutch...first they lose their semis in World cup..now this

Posted by: brian | Jul 17, 2014 10:58:09 PM | 154

@ Brian @ 100

Investigation ? Do you really believe there will be an "investigation"? No, the UN security council has announced they will be holding a meeting tomorrow morning (7/18) ...The US security state and the scum-of-the-earth cabal of western finance capital will stop at literally (obviously) nothing to accomplish this attack on Russian/European economic integration, and then China. China can be counted on to be more fawning and compliant in the face of US aggression, but maybe it wont get that far - and maybe they'll blow up the world first.

Posted by: Marc | Jul 17, 2014 11:09:47 PM | 155

A journalist is saying the spanish ATC in Kiev is a Fake.

https://twitter.com/PabVis

Posted by: TikTok | Jul 17, 2014 11:16:22 PM | 156

#18
"Pro-Russian activists fighting the Ukrainian government said the jetliner had been shot down by a Ukrainian jet.

A pssiblity. They may have mistaken it for a Russian plane. If you look at the Malaysina Airline logo and colors its the same as the RF.

Posted by: JMac | Jul 17, 2014 11:18:27 PM | 157

Posted by: Marc | Jul 17, 2014 11:09:47 PM | 153

time will tell

apparently the black boxes are in rebel hands

Posted by: brian | Jul 17, 2014 11:19:07 PM | 158

Maybe another surface to air missile aimed at a civilian airliner. Russia has a history of shooting down civilian planes. 1983 Korean Airlines Flight 007, anyone?

Iran Air Flight 655 anyone? shot down by the United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes on 3 July 1988.All 290 on board, including 66 children and 16 crew, died.

Posted by: JMac | Jul 17, 2014 11:22:30 PM | 159

@ HAHA @150

"We are at a fork in human cultural evolution where those that are incapable of creative independent thought and can only parrot what they are trained to believe will be getting of of the bus --permanently."

Seriously? I hate to be contrairian or anything but do you know how many times that very miracle has been invoked in the past 400 years? There is no hope in human moral evolution. It doesn't exist. If anything we are degenerating.

Posted by: Marc | Jul 17, 2014 11:43:19 PM | 160

I still want to know what an airliner bound for Western Europe was doing flying over a war zone where SAMS have been flying round like mosquitoes.

Does the 777 have so little fuel that it couldn't have diverted over the Black Sea or Belarus?

Idiots sending civilians into harm's way are surely the ones ultimately responsible, whoever pulled the trigger.

Posted by: The Creator | Jul 17, 2014 11:56:24 PM | 161

Posted by: JMac | Jul 17, 2014 11:22:30 PM | 157

and the american who did it was given an award by Reagan

Posted by: brian | Jul 18, 2014 12:00:19 AM | 162

"We are at a fork in human cultural evolution where those that are incapable of creative independent thought and can only parrot what they are trained to believe will be getting of of the bus --permanently."

Seriously? I hate to be contrairian or anything but do you know how many times that very miracle has been invoked in the past 400 years? There is no hope in human moral evolution. It doesn't exist. If anything we are degenerating.

Posted by: Marc | Jul 17, 2014 11:43:19 PM | 158

like the Eloi and the Morlocks?

Posted by: brian | Jul 18, 2014 12:00:50 AM | 163

reports om Vladimir Suchans FB page https://www.facebook.com/vladimir.suchan
has the plane being excorted over donetsk airspace by fighter jets

Posted by: brian | Jul 18, 2014 12:02:13 AM | 164

@ brian @ 141

The cat left it out by the dumpster and puked. Must've blown in on an ill wind.
Did anyone ever take looey seriously ?? That ol' "anti-war" conscientious objector whos got a hard-on for the empire to invade and bomb about 10 nations of which he disapproves - on about 6 different blog sites... (in a "Marxist" way, of course.)

Posted by: Marc | Jul 18, 2014 12:04:53 AM | 165

War criminal Obama's statement about the incident:

1) ceasefire - gee, why would the US war criminals want that?
2) don't tamper with the crash site - gee, trying to cover your asses after the fact that Russia has the black boxes etc?
3) it's all the separatists' fault

This statement screams that the US knows their guys pulled the trigger. If they had even an inkling of evidence that it really was Russia John Fuckface Kerry would have already been making the rounds a la the gas attack.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 18, 2014 12:05:29 AM | 166

@The Creator #159:

I still want to know what an airliner bound for Western Europe was doing flying over a war zone where SAMS have been flying round like mosquitoes.

Colonel Cassad has a map showing the path the same flight took on June 15, 16, and 17. As you can see, the flight only flew through the warzone on 17 June. The claim Cassad makes is that the flight was diverted by Ukie air control from its recent regular route. I have no reason to think that he is wrong about those flight paths.

He is still claiming that two Yukie fighters accompanied the airliner, based on eyewitness testimony and tweets of that Spanish ATC who has been brought up herebefore. That, I'm not so sure about.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 18, 2014 12:21:23 AM | 167

msm aviation 'experts' all seem to remember only the downing of Koream flight kal007 in 1983 and forget about joint us and nato exercises called Able Archer 83 on nuclear brinkmanship between the two nuclear powers.

what about nato exercise off the coast of ustica, sicily an air-to-air [?] missile downed Itavia Airline's DC-9 at 10,500 feet. the italians managed a cover-up for decades.

In september 1993 rebels shot down 3 civilian passenger planes over Georgian airspace.

Not to mention many instances of high probability a plane was downed in an assassination: Dag Hammarsjkold and Pakistan president Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq.

Posted by: Oui | Jul 18, 2014 12:36:08 AM | 168

@158

I am not sure what you are saying, especially when you use the word moral.

What I am saying is that in human social evolution, specifically linguistic complexities, have become so complex, that belief is the only way for the system to function.

Consequently, the language bing, the human being is trained from birth not to be human!

This is why academia has not been able to "settle" on the meaning of ancient cave paintings and the same reason they have no clue as to what their natural unadulterated minds are expressing when they dream.

Most human beings are without humanity. They are reduced to being believers, PLF's (Programmable Life Forms)

Posted by: HAHA | Jul 18, 2014 12:39:56 AM | 169

NYT

By Thursday night, American intelligence analysts were increasingly focused on a theory that rebels had used a Russian-made SA-11 surface-to-air missile system to shoot down the aircraft and operated on their own fire-control radar, outside the checks and balances of the national Ukrainian air-defense network.

“Everything we have, and it is not much, says separatists,” a senior Pentagon official said. “That said, there’s still a lot of conjecture.”

Complete and utter bullshit conjecture by anonymous US officials based on "not much." Seriously, what the fuck. Can the propaganda the NYT publishes be any more blatant?

False flags are getting more and more brazen.

Posted by: ess emm | Jul 18, 2014 12:44:48 AM | 170

then thers the plane carryig the presidents of Rwanda and Burundi! shot down lilely on orders of Kagame

'The UN has launched an inquiry into how a flight data recorder thought to contain vital evidence on the plane crash that sparked the Rwandan genocide was filed away and left untouched for more than 10 years.
The UNN secretary general, Kofi Annan, announced the move in response to claims in a French newspaper that the UN had obstructed the investigation into the 1994 downing of the plane over Rwanda by not opening the "black box".
The crash - in which the then-president of Rwanda, Juvenal Habyarimana, and his Burundian counterpart, Cyprian Ntayamirawere were killed - set off a chain of violent ethnic clashes in Rwanda, culminating in the slaughter of some 800,000 Tutsis by Hutu soldiers and militias.
The recorder finally "turned up" again yesterday, according to a UN statement, in a locked filing cabinet in the organisation's air safety unit in New York.
etc
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/mar/12/georgewright

Posted by: brian | Jul 18, 2014 12:59:45 AM | 171

@168 "Everything we have, and it is not much..."

Posted by: james | Jul 18, 2014 1:01:27 AM | 172

The Assassination of former Rwandan President Habyarimana?
Nobody Can Call It a "Plane Crash" Now!
Judge Bruguière's Report on the Assassination of former Rwandan President Habyarimana

By Robin Philpot
March 12, 2003

As people around the world prepare to mark the 10th anniversary of the terrible Rwandan tragedy triggered by the shooting down of former Rwandan President Habyarimana's plane on April 6, 1994, the report by French anti-terrorist judge Jean-Louis Bruguière provides cause to reconsider some accepted ideas about those events. The 225-page report leaked to Le Monde places the entire blame for the missile attack on President Habyarimana's plane on current Rwandan President Paul Kagame.

That attack was surely one of the worst terrorist acts of the 1990s. Think about it! Two African heads of state were killed--President Cyprien Ntaryamira of Burundi was also in the plane ¬, the fragile peace based on the Arusha accords of 1993 was shattered, war resumed, and masses of people were massacred. The perpetrators of that attack--the Rwandan Patriotic Front according to Bruguière--knew what would happen, as did their principal backers, the United States and the United Kingdom.

Unclassified internal Clinton Administration documents show that on that very night, immediately after learning of President Habyarimana's death, Prudence Bushnell of the American Embassy in Kigali presciently wrote to Secretary of State Warren Christopher in Washington: "If, as it appears, both Presidents have been killed, there is a strong likelihood that widespread violence could break out in either or both countries, particularly if it is confirmed that the plane was shot down."

A rigorous six-year investigation now finally casts light on an event that changed the course of Rwandan--and central African--history and names names. Had the plane not been shot down, the massacres might have been avoided.

The Bruguière report is also particularly damning for many people who have shaped the narrative of the Rwanda tragedy since 1994. Among them, Kofi Annan, who in 1998 commissioned an Independent Inquiry into UN Actions during the 1994 Genocide in Rwanda. In that very official report states: "At approximately 20:30, Habyarimana and President Cyprien Ntaryamira of Burundi were killed in a plane crash just outside the Kigali airport." Indictment documents produced by the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda also calls it a "plane crash". Two surface to air missiles were shot, but the official UN story was that the plane fell out of the sky! That probably explains why the black box disappeared in UN offices for 10 years.

The report is also damning for Louise Arbour, recently appointed by Kofi Annan to head the UN Human Rights Commission. In her capacity as Chief Prosecutor of the Tribunal, Louise Arbour nixed the only UN sponsored investigation into the assassination of the Rwandan president. When investigator Michael Hourigan turned up evidence pointing to Kagame and the Rwandan Patriotic Front along with testimony from RPF members who had participated in the missile attack, Louise Arbour, though initially enthusiastic, suppressed his findings and ordered him to go no further.

It is damning for former UN mission commander general Romeo Dallaire: first he provides no explanation for the disappearance of the plane's cockpit voice recorder (black box), which surfaced this week at UN headquarters. Dallaire was in charge of the so-called Kigali weapons secure area from where the missile was shot. Secondly, his 600-page book does not even try to explain how the former Rwandan president was killed and who did it. Worse still, he continually refers to the assassination as an "accident".

The report is damning for Uganda and Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni. The missiles used to shoot down the plane were the property of the Ugandan Army. Uganda had been bought them from the Soviet Union in 1987. Whereas the official story would have it that the tragedy in Rwanda was an internal crisis, the ownership of those missiles points directly to the fact that the so-called RPF rebels were ranking members of the Ugandan army until the day they invaded Rwanda on October 1, 1990. Paul Kagame had been Uganda's Chief of Military Intelligence and benefited from Ugandan until he took power in July 1994.

The report is also very damning for United States, and particularly the Clinton administration, who have supported Paul Kagame and the Rwandan Patriotic Front unfailingly since the early 1990s. How could a country supposedly so intent on fighting terrorism treat the assassination of two African heads of state so lightly that it never forced the UN get to the bottom of it? After all, the Washington has always gotten its way on Rwanda at the UN.

For instance, when it was time to act in 1994, another unclassified State Department document dated April 15, 1994, states that for the United States the first priority of the UN Security Council was "to instruct the Secretary general to implement an orderly withdrawal of all/all UNAMIR forces from Rwanda." That is exactly what the UN did, thus prompting former UN Secretary General Boutros-Ghali to declare that "the Rwandan Genocide was 100 percent American responsibility".

Hopefully, the 10th anniversary commemoration will be an opportunity find out more about why so many people died in Rwanda and later in the Congo. Moral indignation is fine. But it cannot replace hard facts. Judge Bruguière's report has uncovered some important facts that have been carefully edited out of the official story about in Rwanda. It deserves to be studied carefully.

Robin Philpot is a Montreal writer. His book Ça ne s'est pas passé comme ça à Kigali (That's not what happened in Rwanda) will soon appear in English.

Robin Philpot is a Montreal writer. His book Ça ne s'est pas passé comme ça à Kigali (That's not what happened in Rwanda) will soon appear in English. Reproduced at RaceandHistory.com with permission from the author. Originally published at counterpunch.org


http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/2004/rwanda.html

Posted by: brian | Jul 18, 2014 1:02:05 AM | 173

Posted by: ess emm | Jul 18, 2014 12:44:48 AM | 168

more ... false flags accompanied by Main Stream Media conspiracy theory - just in case the reaction might not be as intended

New York Times - Tragedy on Top of Crisis May Strengthen Stand Against Russia in U.S. and Europe

European officials were cautious in their initial reactions, seeking time and information before jumping to possible consequences, and were reluctant to assign blame. But most of the passengers were Europeans. The majority of them, 154 in all, were from the Netherlands, where the flight originated, which could increase pressure on European governments to respond.

As it happens, the Netherlands is one of Russia’s largest trading partners and therefore has been among the European nations concerned about the economic impact of harsher measures against Moscow. Prime Minister Mark Rutte of the Netherlands cut short a holiday in Germany to return home. “The whole of the Netherlands is in mourning,” he told reporters. “This beautiful summer day has ended in the blackest possible way.”

Posted by: somebody | Jul 18, 2014 1:06:07 AM | 174

New York Times - Tragedy on Top of Crisis May Strengthen Stand Against Russia in U.S. and Europe

..

Posted by: somebody | Jul 18, 2014 1:06:07 AM | 172

so we have a possible motive

Posted by: brian | Jul 18, 2014 1:14:00 AM | 175

@somebody #172

thanks for the link. Here's another quote:

If investigators are able to confirm suspicions that the Malaysia Airlines jet was brought down by a surface-to-air missile fired by pro-Russian rebels who mistook it for a military aircraft, American officials expressed hope that the tragedy will underscore their case that Moscow has been violating Ukrainian sovereignty.

And if the evidence shows that missiles were fired by the Kiev junta would it underscore that anonymous US officials are despicable assholes? If the evidence shows it was a false flag op, would it underscore the case for dismantling the CIA and jailing its covert officers?

Only one version of events can be talked about.

Posted by: ess emm | Jul 18, 2014 1:27:51 AM | 176

@somebody #172:

Senator Christopher S. Murphy, Democrat of Connecticut, echoed the sentiment in a message he posted on Twitter: “If this plane went down as a consequence of the #Ukraine conflict, then Russia has blood on its hands no matter who fired.”

Yes, even if the US State Department started the Ukraine conflict, and it was the genocidally anti-Russian Ukie fascists who fired, it's still all Russia's fault.

American "opinion leaders" make Goebbels look like a professor of logic and hermeneutics.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 18, 2014 1:31:20 AM | 177

EU Political Split Deepens Over Ukraine/Russia Tactics

Decision on successor to Ashton delayed due to competing candidates in the running for EU's top positions

(NRC.nl) – On policy towards Russia and expansion eastwards into Ukraine, Poland and the Baltic states insist on their candidate Neocon hawk Radek Sikorski. The moderate nations support the new Italian FM Federica Mogherini.

Posted by: Oui | Jul 18, 2014 1:43:59 AM | 178

the tragedy will underscore their case that Moscow has been violating Ukrainian sovereignty.

And if the evidence shows that missiles were fired by the Kiev junta would it underscore that anonymous US officials are despicable assholes? If the evidence shows it was a false flag op, would it underscore the case for dismantling the CIA and jailing its covert officers?

Only one version of events can be talked about.

Posted by: ess emm | Jul 18, 2014 1:27:51 AM | 174


that the US can lament the violation of soverignty, which is one of their specialities, isn risible, and to be repeated by the NYT only showw the 'free press' is a myth.
That a plane was flying thru a war zone airspace, when FAA had months before warned ist planes not to...shows us the Junta doesnt care for human lives and since they are tied by US$5billion to the apron of Vicki (Fuck the EU) Nuland and her neocons, it shows US violation of ukraine sovereignty has become deadly for al

Posted by: brian | Jul 18, 2014 1:52:55 AM | 180

@175
democract politicians are as criminally fraudulent as the republicans:

rather, remembering Vicki (Fuck the EU) Nuland and her $5billion to tweak Ukraine into the US orbit,
'If this plane went down as a consequence of the #Ukraine conflict, then USA has blood on its hands no matter who fired.'

Posted by: brian | Jul 18, 2014 1:57:59 AM | 181

@Oui:

I just went over to Booman Trib to see what he had to say. It turns out that he's on vacation, but he did make a good joke.

Seriously, I really would appreciate it if you kept us informed on how the Dutch media handle this. I can't read Dutch, but how Holland responds is very important here. My impression is that it was one of the EU countries most active in setting up the Maidan. But here we have the people Holland helped put in power murdering over a hundred Dutch citizens.

If you post diaries about this over at Booman Trib, I will read them. I might even re-register under this name. :-)

Posted by: Demian | Jul 18, 2014 1:58:46 AM | 182

Ukraine Releases YouTube Clip "Proving" Rebels Shot Down Malaysian Flight MH-17

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-17/ukraine-releases-youtube-clip-proving-rebels-shot-down-malaysian-flight-mh-17

Posted by: Paty Kerry | Jul 18, 2014 2:25:33 AM | 183

@ #20...
"I am an American, born in the Midwest and the daughter of a line of Americans that stretches back to the 1730s
when we immigrated from Europe -- and I am truly baffled at what this country has become just in my own lifetime."

And no one else much recognises it either -- too many hypnotised and fearful people protecting a corrupted government system rather than
their first priority being the Constitution. Nothing 'exceptional' here folks, just delusion and fait money illusion: move on!

Israel and the Christian Zionist lobby have well and truly taken over the national cultural agenda, imo.
What we see now is stiff-necked Old Testament paradigm (not New Testament) -- an eye for an eye (or more likely 10 eyes for one)
making the whole world blind.

Posted by: X | Jul 18, 2014 2:40:36 AM | 184

@ es emm @ 168

Repulsive. Risible. I don't think there is language severe and full enough to describe the un-credibility of the New York Times. A rag. Bumwad. A waste of trees. As a matter of fact its not even bumwad. I wouldn't wipe my ass with the New York Times it would leave more shit behind than it removed.

Posted by: Marc | Jul 18, 2014 3:18:42 AM | 185

There's just one party with the means, the motive and the opportunity. That makes them the prime suspect - the Kiev junta.

Posted by: nonny | Jul 18, 2014 3:33:25 AM | 186

@Demian - #180

I'll be posting here.

Preliminary count 155 Dutch nationals of which approx. 100 were to attend a bi-annual conference on hiv/aids in Australia. One of the world's leading experts is Joep Lange and a number of specialists from AMC hospital in Amsterdam. All lives lost are equal as is the sorrow for family and friends. This does compound the sadness in one community of professionals. The Conference will be attended by Bill Clinton and Bono.

btw the next scheduled flight Malaysian air, same flight number 017 will depart as usual from Schiphol airport. passengers have been informed, an alternate flight route has been planned. multiple passengers had originally booked for yesterday's flight … very fortunate for them.

Posted by: Oui | Jul 18, 2014 3:37:17 AM | 187

Oui 178

You see who this is?

http://www.thenews.pl/0e7940a5-ff75-487c-8ef4-1d09bdcd9c5b.file

Yes thats right :)

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 18, 2014 3:59:48 AM | 188

nonny, exactly correct. And this mitigates the other way:

As it happens, the Netherlands is one of Russia’s largest trading partners...

Posted by: okie farmer | Jul 18, 2014 4:02:22 AM | 189

Lifenews report (w images) that another smaller plane crashed hours after the boeing plane crashed. Interesting.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 18, 2014 4:19:39 AM | 190

A horrible tragedy - hundreds of lives lost and hundreds more devastated by the news. Just awful.

And unless I see strong evidence to the contrary, this looks like an almighty cock up by the Federalists, rather than an almighty conspiracy by some other party. It is quite astounding that commercial flights were still operating over the troubled region and I suspect that those who downed the 777 were as equally surprised to see what they thought was a military plane falling through the cloudy sky as a Malaysian airliner.

If the Kremlin comes to the same conclusion then expect this to be the trigger that reins in the federalists. And I suspect that Putin has his own suspicions about who did this from the comments he has already made

"This tragedy would not have happened, if there had been peace on that land, or in any case if military operations in southeastern Ukraine had not been renewed," he said in televised comments.

i.e. your aerial attacks forced them into making this mistake.

However, there are admittedly a few elements to this incident that raise suspicion. It truly internationalises a localised battle that pitted the Russians against the Ukrainians - one that the Ukrainians would not win alone. When Ukrainian military planes were being shot out of the sky, international reaction seemed apathetic. Imagine the fury that Ukrainian officials were experiencing to the loss of men and international interest.

The almost instantaneous publication of “intercepted phone conversations” with useful mug shots of those talking accompanying the recording is suspicious. If this has been fabricated, why are Ukrainian authorities to be trusted?

Furthermore, the Netherlands is by far Russia's largest export partner. At a time when enemies of Russia wish to see the economic screw turned tighter, the loss of 150 Dutch nationals to alleged Russian involvement will certainly cause Russian imports to tumble off the back of anti-Russian sentiment in the Netherlands, as well as breaking down strong Dutch opposition to tougher EU sanctions.

Posted by: Pat Bateman | Jul 18, 2014 4:55:52 AM | 192

http://niqnaq.wordpress.com/2014/07/18/crazy-ivan-asked-me-to-look-up-this-what-i-described-as-nato-opens-a-situation-room-for-ukraine-operations/

the substantive point cannot be obscured: this is a NATO facility, it is now as of Jul 12 (six days ago) officially open, and large sums are allocated to its function, whatever that is. I suggest that its real function is not just to ‘conduct information warfare against Russia,’ but that it is a serious electronic war room and that its first project has been controlling the Malaysia airliner operation. This has been conducted more or less on the model of the 1983 Korean Airlines Flight 007, which was intentionally directed into Soviet airspace so that it would be shot down. But it is important to hang on to the fact that in today’s case, it was the DPR who were known to have “Buk” and to have used it, who were intended to perform the shootdown, as indeed I believe they did. Therefore, to blame Russia for it is pure misdirection. The intended target of the operation is the DPR, who can now be treated as “international terrorists” and targeted directly by NATO – RB

Posted by: Cu Chulainn | Jul 18, 2014 5:11:11 AM | 193

Recently we learned about the mystery 777 which flew without ID from US to Netherlands during the nuclear summit and was stopped by the dutch airforce. We also read about the carbon copy of the missing plane supposedly seen in Tel Aviv. Both covers were supposedly meant to be used for false flag attacks. Could this plane be one of those two and the whole thing some sort of setup?

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/24/world/europe/summit-plane-intercept/
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-24/two-dutch-f-16s-scrambled-intercept-unidentified-boeing-777

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWYANJzVJvY

Just wondering, I have no hard data or first-hand infos but the "coincidence" is way too convenient.

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 18, 2014 5:29:25 AM | 194

Spanish air traffic controller Carlos had had his twitter shot down @spainbuca

Posted by: Brian | Jul 18, 2014 6:20:21 AM | 195

US spy over ukraine with satelites where are the photos? Could it be that they see the missiles coming from the junta?
This is very similar to gas incident in Syria.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 18, 2014 6:52:23 AM | 196

you ppl are delusional, the separatists stuffed up, it's that simple. The shot a Ukrainian plane a few days ago and were hoping to repeat it.

Posted by: Another Jeff | Jul 18, 2014 6:54:45 AM | 197

CIA: 'fixed' trajectory
http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=1807956

Posted by: Moscovite | Jul 18, 2014 6:57:22 AM | 198

Russian export to The Netherlands is due to gas transport from the east and re-distributed. The Dutch had one of the largest gasfields of Slochteren and has the pipeline infrastructure in place for Europe.

Gazprom and Gasunie ink MOU - 2006

April 2014 – Amsterdam hosted the annual meetings of the Coordinating Committee for Strategic Cooperation and the Coordination Committee for Sci-Tech Collaboration between Gazprom and Gasunie, chaired by Dmitry Lyugai, Member of the Management Committee, Head of the Prospective Development Department of Gazprom and Hans Coenen, Vice President for Corporate Strategy & Portfolio Management, Managing Director of Gasunie Deutschland. [Source: Gazprom]

Dutch Shell has an excellent working relationship with Russia on their joint projects.

The Dutch have had warm relationship with Russia dating back to Peter the Great.

In today's politics, PM Rutte supports a moderate towards Russia as advocated by Angela Merkel. The Dutch rely on their exports on Germany due to its port in Rotterdam and the Rhine waterway for transport to the Rühr industrial area. The Dutch will likely support Italian FM Federica Mogherini. above Poland's neocon hawk Radek Sikorski for the position as EU's foreign policy chief.

[A few hours ago, I linked to Sikorski's original article which now appears to have been scrubbed. I will link below the cached version on server of WayBackMachine]

Posted by: Oui | Jul 18, 2014 7:09:31 AM | 199

link">http://www.brama.com/news/press/2004/print/041227aei_ukraineconference.html">link

Posted by: Oui | Jul 18, 2014 7:10:06 AM | 200

« previous page | next page »

The comments to this entry are closed.