Plane Down In Ukraine - Facts? Who Needs Facts?
A Malaysian Boeing 777 with 295 people on board crashed today near Shakhtarsk 50 kilometer east of Donetsk, Ukraine.
The appropriate key for "western" journalist to press now is this one.
Over the now coming propaganda shit-storm the recent defeat of the coup-government troops will likely stay unreported.
Posted by b on July 17, 2014 at 16:55 UTC | Permalink
next page »Malaysia say there is no proof yet to say it was shot down which of course it right, no investigation have been done and that will take weeks, months!
Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 17 2014 17:01 utc | 3
It's a given there is no proof it was shotdown that would take quite a bit of time. Fact is Ukraine started spinning promptly.
As if they were all ready to go
"He denied that the rebels possess the SA-17 Buk air-defense as Kiev alleges.
However, the Associated Press reported that a similar launcher was seen by the agency’s journalists near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne earlier Thursday. The Buk missile system can fire missiles up to an altitude of 22,000 meters (72,000 feet), AP said."
This report will be repeated ad nauseum. pinning the blame on the Donbass forces.
Posted by: chet380 | Jul 17 2014 17:19 utc | 5
"Fact is Ukraine started spinning promptly.
As if they were all ready to go.."
Yes, almost before it happened, the quotes from Kievan junta personnel started flowing.
It is impossible to believe that Russia was responsible, it being the only power in the region interested in restraint and clearly checking every move it makes-in sharp contradistinction to the cowboys from Kiev and their bosses in Langley; while the Resistance forces have no access to the equipment needed to bring down a plane flying at 30,000 feet. Nor do they have any motive.
None of which matters in the modern media which has no other purpose but to serve the interests of the ruling class.
Posted by: bevin | Jul 17 2014 17:20 utc | 6
Damn it all to hell -- Because Obama needed to look "strong" standing next to John McCain running up to midterms after Georgia, Syria and Benghazi/Benghazi/Benghazi ... oh, and that was before Iraq largely "fell" to ISIS (which Patric Cobhern believes was at least partly orchestrated by McCain's BFFs in the KSA) ... This administration's "legacy" will be one of serial foreign policy debacles. Yes, Kiev is high on my "index of suspicion" but the "tradecraft" required to pin this on the separatists, I suspect is child's play. See also Gulf of Tonkin.
Yesterday's ramped up sanctions were "convenient" but there was stunningly little reporting about the new BRIC bank ... http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28317555 ...
Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 17 2014 17:27 utc | 7
Well, there have been numerous insider warnings of a major "false flag event" taking place this week - that looks like it.
May the monsters responsible for this rot in hell.
Posted by: Emily P. | Jul 17 2014 17:30 utc | 8
So let me ask. Is there any amount of proof that would lead any of you to ever believe foul play involving Russia, because I get the feeling you've taken the opposite side of the blame coin and instead blame America. If there's proof America was behind this and it was a false flag, I'm willing to look at and consider it. Are you all willing to do the same if there's convincing proof Russia was behind it?
Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Jul 17 2014 17:35 utc | 9
I'm afraid this is Calvinball ... It should matter who "really" did this... but the reality is that is doesn't actually matter at all. It's hard to imagine the "Russians" -- who after all are in fact a "real" military -- being "reckless" enough to mistake a passenger plane for a cargo plane much to "have orders" to strike another plane, any plane belonging to anyone, regardless of air space, provided it was not actually engaging in combat operations ...
Has anyone seen compelling evidence as to who was actually responsible for the last plane??? That's the point, imho, that "the truth" about what happened really doesn't matter (not that it mattered a whole helluva lot in the past either).
Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 17 2014 17:43 utc | 10
The "chocolate king" is going to eat his chocolate tie next i think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyNocJFUloA
Posted by: Paty Kerry | Jul 17 2014 17:44 utc | 11
http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/741182
Well this makes think that Putin knows what really happened and it wasn't Russia or the rebels.
Posted by: Penny | Jul 17, 2014 1:02:51 PM | 4
So true, the cia working over time and as commenter at Saker pointed out the Malaysian govt just called out israel on Gaza.
b great picture and I feel bad for the families everywhere that were on this flight.
Posted by: jo6pac | Jul 17 2014 17:47 utc | 12
An escalating incident on this scale was inevitable considering how hard the US has tried to bait Russia into overt military entaglement in Ukraine. The timing is interesting, too, coming just at the close of the BRICS summit, which reminds me of the beginning of both the Ukraine and VZ coup attemps coming at the close of the Socchi Olympics. It probably doesn't hurt that Russia announced yesterday that it would reopen it sigint facility in Cuba to spy on the US.
Posted by: yellowsnapdragon | Jul 17 2014 17:49 utc | 13
@ anonymous @ 3
Any investigation will fall to the Junta in Kiev, which is if possible, even more corrupt and dishonest than it is incompetent. In fact, any international investigators will be risking their lives if they try to hard to find evidence and, or come up with any explanation other than "putin" ordered it shot down from the Kremlin. The corporate print media in new York and London will be the absolute worst (being the most beholden to the interests of finance capital who are pushing this war with Russia) but TV networks wont be much better. Having said that, in a report on CBS I watched briefly this morning, they didn't (yet) try to blame it on Russia, but did repeat the accusations "of both sides" constantly..Another Malaysian airliner has "catastrophic failure" and crashes...Malaysia airlines is clearly a dangerous ride these days - is all anyone knows.
Posted by: Marc | Jul 17 2014 17:52 utc | 14
"PUTRAJAYA: Malaysia today condemned 'in the strongest terms' Israel's continuing military aggression in Gaza since July 7 through a series of air strikes and other military action, which has resulted in the deaths of 220 Palestinians, among them women and children, and injury of more than 1,500 others.
Foreign Minister Datuk Seri Anifah Aman (pix), in a statement, said Malaysia urged all parties involved to refrain from provocative acts. He also called on the international community, especially the United Nations Security Council, to act swiftly and decisively to demand that Israel cease its disproportionate aggression on Palestine."
http://www.thesundaily.my/news/1115491
Revenge by the Israelis? This development will completely displace criticism of the Israelis over their massacre of children and, as a bonus, give its puppet-master a stick with which to beat the Russians.
There must be close scrutinity on the investigation as to whether a bomb or a missile caused the damage.
Posted by: chet380 | Jul 17 2014 17:53 utc | 15
Stepping a little bit back and looking at all the data regarding MH17, I see the following possibilities - in descending order of 'outward appearance' probability.
1. The rebels shot it down. This is possible, given that an AN-26 was downed a few days back at relatively high altitude - the Ukrainians claimed it was at 6000m. So, with the possible absence of proper IFF and other identification tools with rebels, they could have been shooting blind and hit MH17.
2. There was a explosion on board MH17 - which is almost certain given how the debris are spread. If someone want to conduct a 'false flag' attack with a timed bomb, what would be better than MH17 that flies over Donetsk every day like clockwork. It was assured that seeing a plane going down the rebels will claim responsibility, thereby implicating themselves and indirectly Russia.
3. The rebels does not have any high-altitude SAM systems, and MH17 was shot down like the AN-26 from across the border as the Ukrainians were claiming a few days back. This is very unlikely. It would be ridiculous to assume that Russians would not be able to detect a B777 from an AN-26.
Posted by: abal chan | Jul 17 2014 17:54 utc | 16
I agree with you in this regard. Ukrainian crisis is not purely internal conflict.Clearly, the Western bloc has supported right-wing opposition to topple pro-Russian president Yanokovic. What-so-called "Ukrainian Nationalists" has threatened Russian speakers in Southern and Eastern territories, however, Is it an internal conflict?? or War of influence between Russia and the West?.
Presstv article
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/371697.html
Posted by: Paty Kerry | Jul 17 2014 18:08 utc | 18
Russian intelligence stations and officers have been watching east Ukraine like a hawk since hostilities began. They'll know in short order the general launch area, which missile type was used, and may have comms from the unit that launched it. It will take time for that reporting to be put together, vetted, then routed upchannel to Putin and the rest of the command chain. So the Russians will know in fairly short order the where and what, the question being will be who...was it Ukie, Novo, or a Russian booboo.
Likewise if all their intel picked up nada for a launch, to include no comms, etc. it will point more to a bomb on the plane or potential mechanical failure.
From a SAM standpoint I doubt the Russian's did it even as a booboo, as their ground control officer's for SAM batteries and radar sites deal with commercial airline traffic on a daily basis, they should also have pretty updated orders and SOPs given the hostilities across the border to prevent exactly this type of situation, so the chances of them letting fly at something close to two miles up is slim. (but possible)
The big question on the Novo's is do they actually have anything in the arsenal that can go that high? And even if so, do they have trained SAM crews to operate the gear, track, engage, etc. Again with a height of 10k ft it's odd they'd fire as they'd likely be going after low flyers doing ground attacks or Ukie transports trying to land...again both target sets are well under 10k feet.
The Ukies undoubtedly have the hardware and crews but since the novos don't have any airpower why would they be shooting? Unless they were trying to shoot at a Russian jet, which is possible if they've recieved fire orders based on the potential for Russian shootdowns of Ukie planes, as the Ukies have been claiming. There's also the potential for a false flag attempt which would be reckless and foolhardy since the Ukrainian military knows the big boys would be able to track the event back to them based on the intel from the launch, potential comms, etc. (but the west IS reckless and foolhardy and their Kiev allies are doubly so.)
Quite a mess, no? I'm curious to see what comes out of Russia from their Intel collection in the next 72 hours since they'll likely be the only honest parties. If they oopsed they'll fess up to it, if the Novo's did it they'll have to reluctantly admit it, and if Ukie's did they'll be quite happy to share. The western response will be worthless since it will be "Russia's fault" no matter what actually happened.
Posted by: thepanzer | Jul 17 2014 18:15 utc | 19
Susan Sunfliower@7,
O'Bomber just wants to be a 'War President' like everyone else - you're not a REAL President unless you've personally ordered in the troops on some foreign shore and caused an appropriate amount of damage.
When will it be the title of 'Peace President' that is sought for as vigorously as wars are sought today? When will an American President be proud to be able to claim, truthfully, that during his term of office no US service member died in a foreign war or police action or intervention?
I am an American, born in the Midwest and the daughter of a line of Americans that stretches back to the 1730s when we immigrated from Europe -- and I am truly baffled at what this country has become just in my own lifetime.
Posted by: Cynthia | Jul 17 2014 18:16 utc | 20
#18 -- interesting pressTV says:
"Pro-Russian activists fighting the Ukrainian government said the jetliner had been shot down by a Ukrainian jet.“Witnesses watching the flight of the Boeing 777 passenger plane saw it being attacked by a battle plane of the Ukrainian forces,” the self-proclaimed Lugansk People's Republic (LPR) said in a statement.
“After that the passenger plane split in two in the air and fell on the territory of the Donetsk People's Republic,” it said.""
I wish the rebels' eye-witness credibility were just a bit better ... but I think a second-plane scenario should have some sort of third-party verifiable "footprint" ...
Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 17 2014 18:17 utc | 21
I'm curious to see what comes out of Russia from their Intel collection in the next 72 hours
Maybe another surface to air missile aimed at a civilian airliner. Russia has a history of shooting down civilian planes. 1983 Korean Airlines Flight 007, anyone?
I'm not saying it's the case this time, but it's a possibility. Another likely story is the Eastern Ukraine Terrorists led by the Russian Strelkov shot it down with their newly acquired Buks.
Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Jul 17 2014 18:24 utc | 22
@21,
well, all is speculation now, let's wait for video footage, forensics and of course the black box.
Posted by: Paty Kerry | Jul 17 2014 18:25 utc | 23
Why were commercial flight paths open over eastern Ukraine? This is incomprehensible. It was well known that the rebels had at least one buk missile battery and they shot down that transport plane that was flying at 6000 m just last week. The buk has an altitude range of 25000 m while Boeing 777 fly at 12,000 m.
I sure hope it was not the rebels who did this. Even if it wasn't they or the Russians will be blamed. Certainly, the Russians and possibly the US navy ships* in the Black Sea will have radar tracking data that should establish whether or not a missile was involved and, if so, where it was launched.
*Agis tracking radar can detect a golf ball sized target "over" 165 km and US warships in the Black Sea are no closer than about 300 km from the relevant area in Donbas.
Posted by: ToivoS | Jul 17 2014 18:27 utc | 24
american tv commentators are mostly assuming it was a missile that did it -
one says "whoever did it, it is to no one's advantage - it was a low level operator's mistake"
another one says, "this will increase calls for more action against russia"
given the latter remark, one can imagine that kiev would benefit from doing this, and then blaming it on russia or russian-aided forces - but would they believe they could get away with a misattribution of the attack? assertions are being made that monitoring of the area will reveal where the missile was fired from, and accordingly whose missile it was
the decision by the airline to fly over the area seems, in retrospect, to have been a very big mistake
as the poet said, in a pre-gender inclusive language age, "man's inhumanity to man makes countless thousands mourn"
may the creative forces of the universe have mercy on our souls, if any
Posted by: mistah charley, ph.d. | Jul 17 2014 18:34 utc | 25
@22 "Russia has a history of shooting down civilian planes."
Russia didn't exist as an independent country in 1983. The United States, on the other hand, DOES have a history of downing civilian airliners (USS Vincennes,anyone).
Posted by: shargash | Jul 17 2014 18:35 utc | 26
Back in 1988 the US navy downed an Iranian airliner killing 290 people and never apologized.
Just to put things in perspective.
Posted by: Andoheb | Jul 17 2014 18:35 utc | 27
@ coldn @ 22
Already at that game ? "I said it but I didn't " I think your a ny times employee.. While we remember history it would be good to remember all of it. The US penchant for shooting down civilian airlines (Iran Air 655 ?) as well as murdering innocent people to get their wars started...Remember the Maine anyone ? How about the gulf of Tonkin "incident" ? How about Operation North woods? How about flying a KAL flight over a Russian Submarine base during a surprise cold war 1st strike drill for that matter ?Or recent history, what about using their stooges to carry out these nefarious "false flag" murder sprees, like the turks staging a sarin gas attack to blame it on the Syrians, with obamas foreknowledge (and therefore tacit approval) ? http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n08/seymour-m-hersh/the-red-line-and-the-rat-line
But im sure its different this time. surely the US has learned from its evil past and would never, ever do something like that now...........................
Posted by: Marc | Jul 17 2014 18:35 utc | 28
@abal chan
From a perspective of a "false flag" operation, your #2 sound implausible. Such actions need to have a very good chance of success. Since the detonation should be calculated to be inside a 100 miles perimeter on the border zone, it requires a time accuracy of 10 minutes (cruise speed being 660 miles/hour at this altitude). Eventual delays that are common in aviation business and over the air navigation factors impacting the timing make this sort of accuracy non-manageable for a good success rate.
Your #1 is contradicted by the Ukrainian regime previous declarations (2 weeks ago): they didn't believe at the time that the "rebels" had a launcher capable of hitting targets as high as their Antonov, which was flying way lower than the 777.
You are categorizing yourself the scenario for the Russian downing a plane without knowing it has a passenger signature as highly unlikely;
Which leaves, besides the downing by error scenario (by the rebels or the regime) which can't and shouldn't be subject to analysis, only 2 other options:
- Russia downed the plane as a provocation to furthermore polarize the situation. This is politically improbable in my opinion because it doesn't neither match the current objectives of the Russian government nor serve their long-term interests.
- Fraction in the Ukrainian leadership, or the whole, was involved in this.
Posted by: ATH | Jul 17 2014 18:40 utc | 30
Here are some history on shootdown of airplanes(if that what we have here) incidents
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents
Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 17 2014 18:41 utc | 31
Toivos,
The problem is the US won't release the data if it shows a missile coming from the Ukie side. That's why I'm more curious to hear from their Russian counterparts with similar capabilities.
Both sides are likely already poring over the data. It will take time to be vetted, flow up the command chain, and for decisions on how to message and release it to the public though.
I'd guess 48-72 hours, maybe 24, but that would be rushing it.
~P
Posted by: thepanzer | Jul 17 2014 18:43 utc | 32
From RT.com:
“I can say that Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft - 15:44 Moscow time,” a source told the news agency on condition of anonymity."The contours of the aircrafts are similar, linear dimensions are also very similar, as for the coloring, at a quite remote distance they are almost identical", the source added.
@19
Agree completely with your assessment that Russian intelligence in key to figuring out what happened.
Posted by: yellowsnapdragon | Jul 17 2014 18:50 utc | 34
They are reporting on Al Jezeera that it was a BUK sam that hit the plane...Kiev deployed batteries of BUK missiles in Novorussiya 2 days ago.
Posted by: Marc | Jul 17 2014 19:08 utc | 35
Kiev has claimed in the past few hours that it was a Russian fighter jet -already out of the question..It was a BUK sam missile.
Posted by: Marc | Jul 17 2014 19:09 utc | 36
Would this be possible to find if a plane is attacked by a missiles?
http://rt.com/files/news/2a/64/c0/00/24.jpg
from:http://rt.com/news/173644-photos-plane-malaysia-crash/
Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 17 2014 19:17 utc | 37
@ anon @ 37
Probably, unless it is vaporized by a nuke. A missile would not incinerate an entire 777
Posted by: Marc | Jul 17 2014 19:26 utc | 38
Alot of Russian news site say ukrainian BUK missiles (by the junta) fired at it. If its true or not is too early to say.
Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 17 2014 19:27 utc | 39
Scattered parts of plane indicate in broke apart in mid-air according to panel of experts on CNN. The propaganda station of the British (BBC) assumes exclusively it was a missile from pro-Russia separatists. The area where plane went down is controled by the separatists who have reported the black box has been found. That would indicate it would be sent to Moscow for analysis.
○ Kiev accuses Russia for downing Sukhoi Su-25 fighter jet | The Guardian |
A Ukrainian spokesman, Andrei Lysenko, said in a televised briefing that the pilot of the Sukhoi Su-25 jet was forced to eject from the plane after it was shot at on Wednesday evening. It was the first time Ukraine has directly accused Russia of using air power in the fighting. Russia's defence ministry denied responsibility for downing the plane, calling the accusation "absurd".
RT.com modifies its original statement:
At the same time, there have been reports contradicting Intefax’s report that was the first and the only media source to publish the news, saying that Presidential plane was not flying over Ukraine at the same time.As a source told Gazeta.ru online news portal, Putin’s plane does take off from Vnukovo-3 [the terminal that accepts business jets], but the president does not fly over the conflict-gripped neighboring country.
“Putin has only one jet – Board One, he does not fly other planes. This plane always takes off from Vnukovo-3, but the presidential plane have not been flying over Ukraine for a while,” the source at Vnukovo-3 terminal said.
Let's see...
Ukrainian war, February 2014
Missing Malaysia Airlines flight MH370, March 8, 2014
ISIL/ISIS caliphate, June 29, 2014
Operation "Protective Edge"/Israel–Gaza conflict, July 8, 2014
$100 billion BRICS Development Bank and reserve currency pool worth over another $100 billion,July 15 2014
Syria Assad Sworn In For Third Term As Syrian President, July 16, 2014
Qatar Airways buys Boeing 777 for US$18.9b, July 16, 2014
Malaysian airliner crashes in E. Ukraine near Russian border, over 280 people on board, July 17, 2014
Posted by: Paty Kerry | Jul 17 2014 19:34 utc | 42
From RT.com:
The Ukrainian military reportedly deployed a battery of Buk surface-to-air missile systems, capable of bringing down high-flying jets, to the Donetsk region the day before the Malaysian passenger plane crashed in the area.
You need to check out these tweets. This Carlos fella is working as an Air Traffic Controller in Kiev as far as I understand (correct me if I'm wrong) and has been for some time.
He clearly states that it was Kiev that shot down the plane and that it was clear what happened.
"En los radares esta todo recogido, para los incrédulos, derribado por kiev, aquí lo sabemos y control aéreo militar también"
via Yandex.Translate
"In the radars this all together, for the unbelievers, brought down by kiev, here's what we know and military air control also"
https://twitter.com/spainbuca/status/489835522849009664
There are many more comments following this line from him.
Posted by: RobertB | Jul 17 2014 19:46 utc | 44
Israeli ground forces said to be moving into Gaza-while the world is looking the other way?
Posted by: bevin | Jul 17 2014 19:55 utc | 45
bevin
Exactly my thought, there is no end to the craziness of the israeli regime.
By tommorow we can expect in sum 500 palestinians killed and west will whine about Russia...
Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 17 2014 20:03 utc | 46
"Israeli ground forces said to be moving into Gaza-while the world is looking the other way?"
Exactly. This has the hallmarks of a false flag.
At a minimum, Israel is exploiting the incident to reduce exposure of their invasion of Gaza.
It may well be that sayanim in Ukraine organized this operation with Mossad.
Posted by: Cahokia | Jul 17 2014 20:10 utc | 47
Malaysian plane was not vaporized. RT is showing many plane parts on the ground.
Posted by: lysias | Jul 17 2014 20:10 utc | 48
http://www.vesti.ru/doc.html?id=1807816
Defence analyst Major Charles Heyman, who edited a book called Armed Forces of the European Union, believes it could have been downed by a 'slack' Ukraine air defence centre.
He told Sky News: 'It looks like confusion. It’s possible that Ukraine thought it was hostile and not civilian and shot it down.'
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696161/BREAKING-NEWS-Malaysian-passenger-plane-carrying-295-people-crashes-Ukraine-near-Russian-border.html#ixzz37l93LVDz
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
Posted by: Moscovite | Jul 17 2014 20:24 utc | 49
WSJ: U.S. intelligence confirms surface-to-air missile fired at Malaysian jet but is divided over origin
Posted by: Andrey Subbotin | Jul 17 2014 20:32 utc | 50
oh, let's not forget that it was the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission, a Malaysian organisation established in 2007 as an alternative to the International Criminal Court in The Hague, that, in November 2011, convicted George W Bush and Tony Blair for crimes against peace for their involvement in the invasion of Iraq. In May 2012 it convicted Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Yoo, Bybee, Addington, and Haynes of conspiracy to commit war crimes, specifically torture. In November 2013 the tribunal convicted the State of Israel for genocide of the Palestinian people and convicted former Israeli general Amos Yaron for crimes against humanity and genocide for his involvement in the Sabra and Shatila massacre.
Posted by: john | Jul 17 2014 20:38 utc | 51
While every one is busy.
http://news.yahoo.com/israeli-pm-instructed-military-begin-ground-offensive-gaza-194739389.html
Posted by: jo6pac | Jul 17 2014 20:41 utc | 52
Crashed Boeing dispatcher: two Ukrainian military jets near jet before it crashed
http://rusvesna.su/news/1405625238
Posted by: Moscovite | Jul 17 2014 20:50 utc | 53
jo6pac
look at the comments, are these people paid to say this crazy pro-israel stuff?
Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 17 2014 20:53 utc | 54
More on @44:
Having been a translator of Spanish I offer the following tranlation:
"An air traffic controller, present in the Control Tower (Kiev) that controlled the flight of the Malaysia Airlines flight that crashed on Thurday with 295 people on board points to Ukraine and not the separatists as being responsible for the downing of the plane.
The controller, Carlos, who appears to be Spanish but based in Borispol, has tweeted the following:
"Everything has been recorded on radar. For those that don’t believe it, it was taken down by Kiev; we know that here (in traffic control) and the military air traffic control know it too (7.14)
As soon as the Malaysia Airlines B777 disappeared the Kiev military authority informed us of the shooting down. How did they know? (6.00 pm)
If the Kiev authorities want to admit the truth 2 fighter jets were flying very close a few minutes before the incident but did not shoot down the airliner (5.54)
The B777 was escorted by 2 Ukrainian fighter jets minutes before disappearing from radar. (5.48)
The Ministry of the Interior did know that there were fighter aircraft in the area, but the Ministry of Defense didn’t. 7.15 pm)
Some days ago, on here, I said that the Kiev military wanted an excuse to get rid of the current president. This could be it, and on Timoshenko’s orders 7.36
The military confirnm that it was Ukraine, but it is not known where the order came from. 7.31"
Posted by: BrevigBay | Jul 17 2014 20:58 utc | 55
@ bevin @45
That's true although Israel usually prefers to have an audience for their illegal massacres
Posted by: Marc | Jul 17 2014 21:02 utc | 56
Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 17, 2014 4:53:53 PM | 54
Yes, I would venture that 99% are bat-shit-crazy and will protect the crumbling empire at all cost. I'm sure a lot of them work for a 3 letter Amerikan govt. office. Pretty sad isn't:(
Posted by: jo6pac | Jul 17 2014 21:05 utc | 57
@ brevigbay @ 55
VERY interesting stuff...I have noticed that the our local corporate TV media affiliates, who this morning were already implying that a new putinocity had been committed, have backed off and are characterizing it as an accident now, without the usual connect-the-dots-for-ya' spin
Posted by: Marc | Jul 17 2014 21:09 utc | 58
The Ukranian governement at least bears the responsibility in not officiially warning international airlines to avoid flying on areas where such missile launchers are present.
Posted by: Virgile | Jul 17 2014 21:18 utc | 59
Another bright and shiny new addition to the CIA's legacy of ashes.
Posted by: Pete | Jul 17 2014 21:25 utc | 60
currently plausible story is that there are radio recordings of the anti-kiev forces boasting of downing a kiev military transport plane, then being surprised and dismayed it's actually a plane full of civilians
it might be the way it happened
Posted by: mistah charley, ph.d. | Jul 17 2014 21:30 utc | 61
@60
No, kiev military was shot in Torez, Malaysian at Krzemienczuk! Look at distance: 494 km
@60 Dont listen to CIA/US propaganda
Boeing 777 of Malaysia Airlines most likely shot down by Ukrainian troops
link
Posted by: Moscovite | Jul 17 2014 21:34 utc | 62
MAP Flightradar24
http://anti-maidan.com/index.php?id=3968
Posted by: Moscovite | Jul 17 2014 21:38 utc | 63
https://twitter.com/julianbarnes Pentagon Reporter, The Wall Street Journal
US Defense official: "If the separatists shot it down, it couldn't have been done without Russian assistance." US Official: American intelligence agencies have determined #MH17 was shot down by surface to air missile. Unknown where missile fired from
US official: very unlikely Ukrainians shot down #MH17, "The only groups we are looking at are the separatists or the Russians."
so much for the US investigation... seems the answer was already selected
Posted by: Andrey Subbotin | Jul 17 2014 21:44 utc | 64
60
these audio recordings are fake as hell, anyone can do that and record, we need hard proof.
Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 17 2014 21:46 utc | 65
But...
there are different accounts about the place of the crash
Difficult to know....
https://twitter.com/flightradar24
Posted by: Moscovite | Jul 17 2014 21:49 utc | 66
@63: Reminds me of how categorically U.S. officials denied that the Syrian rebels could have been responsible for the sarin.
Posted by: lysias | Jul 17 2014 21:54 utc | 67
Most probable Kremenchuk ( last signals )
https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/489795658879348737/photo/1
Malaysia Airlines flight #MH17 just before it disappeared over Ukraine. pic.twitter.com/xvDHsEQtkg
Posted by: Moscovite | Jul 17 2014 21:54 utc | 68
@ mista-etc., @ 60
And maybe there's an I phone vid of "putin" in a hot air balloon blowing it away with an old Czechoslovakian RPG (left over from the Hanoi stockpile)...maybe it happened that way too........
Posted by: Marc | Jul 17 2014 22:04 utc | 69
No way the Russians did this,if in fact it is some kind of attack,why?It is likely(if not a bomb aboard) that either the govt or the rebels did it.But who instigated this whole mess;Obama.So he did it in reality,by creating the destabilization.Seems simple to me,but anathema to the MSM.
Posted by: dahoit | Jul 17 2014 22:12 utc | 70
@ subbotin @ 63
And who expected anything less(or more) from the Criminal "US intelligence community" , including a weaponized State Depratment ? But like the sarin gas attack carried out by the Turkish govt. and US - paid for mercenaries in Syria, the truth will out..and when it does you can expect to see pathetic cyphers like coldn on here endlessly repeating long since discredited US lines of misinformation. Because the Kiev Junta will NEVER admit culpability...not unless they were orderd to by John Kerry of course, but of course that will never happen. John Kerry couldn't speak a true statement even if it was by accident.
Posted by: Marc | Jul 17 2014 22:14 utc | 71
Controlador aéreo: El Boeing 777 "voló escoltado por 2 cazas ucranianos" antes de desaparecer
Texto completo en: http://actualidad.rt.com/actualidad/view/134299-controlador-trafico-aereo-buelo-mh17-escoltado-cazas-ucranianos
Posted by: Moscovite | Jul 17 2014 22:14 utc | 72
what can shoot down a commercial plane that lokos like russias Rossiya presidential airlines at 35000 feet? an onboard bomb? thin Lockerbie
its been noted the malaysian plane looks a bit like the russian presidential plane...an attempt to assassinate president Putin?
Posted by: brian | Jul 17 2014 22:32 utc | 73
This is a setup and the US and its semi human stooges in "intelligence community" , and in all of its terrorist for hire cells in 'democracy' movements in Venezuela and Syria and god knows where else, all of its petty tyrant pig dictators in Ukraine and Indonesia, in Thailand and wherever else, will not stop until they are stopped, or until they get their way - it would better if they were confronted directly. BLOW up the whole fucking western extortion system, GO fucking nuclear..Its going to happen anyway unless the bankers cabal and empire is defeated and they wont except defeat without taking the whole world down with them...take it down..burn motherfucker burn.
Posted by: Marc | Jul 17 2014 22:34 utc | 74
However, the Associated Press reported that a similar launcher was seen by the agency’s journalists near the eastern Ukrainian town of Snizhne earlier Thursday. The Buk missile system can fire missiles up to an altitude of 22,000 meters (72,000 feet), AP said."
This report will be repeated ad nauseum. pinning the blame on the Donbass forces.
Posted by: chet380 | Jul 17, 2014 1:19:25 PM | 5
Associated Press journos have a track record of fraudulant reporting eg the israeli invasion of Lebanon 2006
Posted by: brian | Jul 17 2014 22:37 utc | 75
Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Jul 17, 2014 2:24:14 PM | 22
America has abetter history of shootnig down planes abroad Iran air
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
but as Cold and Hole in the head reminds us with his one incident 'history', Russia doesnt shoot down planes that dont stray into its airspace....thanks fella!
US does
USrael also did Lockerbie with an onboard bomb planted in London airport
Posted by: brian | Jul 17 2014 22:40 utc | 76
Kiev has claimed in the past few hours that it was a Russian fighter jet -already out of the question..It was a BUK sam missile.
Posted by: Marc | Jul 17, 2014 3:09:50 PM | 36
anyone making any claim prior to investigation is engaged in propaganda..the Junta is using its official position to make claims that would normally be ignored
Posted by: brian | Jul 17 2014 22:41 utc | 77
I just noticed NBC Nightly News doing the same thing. The end of story discussion was what to do about Russia and the "rebels" in Ukraine ... if that is they were found to be the cause. No comment on if they weren't the cause. It's that strategy of preemption; strike first, blame first.
Posted by: Curtis | Jul 17 2014 22:43 utc | 78
US Defense official: "If the separatists shot it down, it couldn't have been done without Russian assistance." US Official: American intelligence agencies have determined #MH17 was shot down by surface to air missile. Unknown where missile fired from
US official: very unlikely Ukrainians shot down #MH17, "The only groups we are looking at are the separatists or the Russians."
so much for the US investigation... seems the answer was already selected
Posted by: Andrey Subbotin | Jul 17, 2014 5:44:40 PM | 63
Jesus! the US regime is as bad as the Ukraine regime..NO investigation has been carried out...anything they say is clearly war proaganda....the US keeps showing its not an objective observer...as for american INTEL....where were they on 9-11?! how come they knew so little then in attacks in their own backyard?
Posted by: brian | Jul 17 2014 22:43 utc | 79
The last time what people suspected was a missile downing an airliner in the US turned out to be (official story) fuel tanks that heated up and the vapors ignited by faulty wiring. OR as they say in MIB, "Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus."
Posted by: Curtis | Jul 17 2014 22:48 utc | 80
brian
What are US problem?!, do they want to attack Russia? They seems to be complete brainwashed, so eager to start a new war, but why arent they starting it? They are so lame!
Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 17 2014 22:50 utc | 81
@Muscovite #61:
Please use proper html for links so you don't fuck up threads.
Colonel Cassad is convinced a Ukie fighter shot the plane down, but I now find that implausible, since the rebels don't have fighter jets, so if it was a fighter, this couldn't be pinned on them.
I'm pretty sure that the only two real possibilities are that this was a junta false flag operation (perfect time for it, given that they've started losing the war), or just plain old Yukie incompetence. As a Guardian article indicates, the previous time a military shot down an airliner, it was also the Yukies. They really should be kept away from anything explosive.
I presently lean toward a mistaken firing, given that this happened so close to Russia, the Russians were doubtless watching closely, so a false flag op would be hard to spin.
@Demian: The brazenness of the German government's lie about the Gleiwitz incident was no doubt perfectly obvious to people outside Germany, but German people were persuaded, and that was all Hitler wanted.
Posted by: lysias | Jul 17 2014 22:55 utc | 83
Throwing BRICS at Israel
US Financial and Political Tap About To Shut Off For Israel Courtesy of BRICS
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/17/throwing-brics-israel/
Posted by: Paty Kerry | Jul 17 2014 22:56 utc | 84
Posted by: Curtis | Jul 17, 2014 6:48:04 PM | 79
gallows humor! HAHAHA
Posted by: brian | Jul 17 2014 22:56 utc | 85
@81 In my country link for google maps works ;
you can try to find the distance between Kremenchuk (kremenchug)
and Thorez (torez) yourself
https://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/489795658879348737/photo/1
Posted by: Moscovite | Jul 17 2014 22:59 utc | 86
Posted by: Demian | Jul 17, 2014 6:51:18 PM | 81
if we must speculate:
have people forgotten Lockerbie? an onboard bomb timed to explode is also a possibility
also some indication plane was redirected over Donetsk...shades of the Korea plane incident
Posted by: brian | Jul 17 2014 23:02 utc | 87
@brian #78:
USG: The only groups we are looking at are the separatists or the Russians.
That's like Jen Psaki just knowing that the Russians shot first that time a sniper killed two people soon after the liberation of the Crimea.
But both EU and US citizens were killed in this crash. So I think Westerners will be more interested in getting at the truth than they would be if only Russians and Yukies, for example, were involved.
Here's a Russian military expert arguing it was incompetence. (Thanks to William Bolwes on the previous thread.)
Диспетчер: «Два украинских истребителя были замечены рядом с самолетом перед тем, как он исчез с радаров»
Dispatcher: "Two Ukrainian fighters were seen near the plane before it disappeared from the radar"
Испанский диспетчер, который вел упавший "Боинг", опубликовал сообщение в своем Твиттере, в котором говорилось, что два украинских истребителя были замечены рядом с самолетом за несколько минут до того, как он исчез с радаров.
Un contrôleur aerien espagnol basé à Kiev indique que l'avion était escorté par 2 avions de chasse ukrainien avant de disparaitre @spainbuca
Carlos. @spainbuca
El avión B 777 voló escoltado por 2 cazas de ukraine hasta minutos antes, de desaparecer de los radares,
9:48 - 17 июля 2014 г.
El avión B 777 voló escoltado por 2 cazas de ukraine hasta minutos antes, de desaparecer de los radares,
Carlos. @spainbuca
Sí las autoridades de kiev, quieren decir la verdad, esta recogido 2 cazas volaron muy cerca minutos antes , no lo derribo un caza
9:54 - 17 июля 2014 г.
- Когда "Боинг" просто исчез с радаров, киевские власти нам сообщили, что он разбился. Как они могли узнать это так быстро? - пишет Карлос в своем микро-блоге.
Кроме того, испанец сообщает, что военные подтверждают тот факт, что самолет был сбит украинской стороной, но "пока не известно, кто именно отдал приказ".
Напомним, Boeing малайзийских авиалиний, выполнявший рейс Амстердам — Куала-Лумпур за 50 км до вхождения в воздушное пространство России, начал снижаться, впоследствии его обнаружили горящим на земле на территории Украины.
http://rusvesna.su/news/1405625238
Posted by: brian | Jul 17 2014 23:09 utc | 89
Posted by: Demian | Jul 17, 2014 7:03:30 PM | 87
im balancing the US regime by looking at the Junta and the americans
this story bears some similarity to Lockerbie and the Korea incident (plane diverted into hostile airspace)
Posted by: brian | Jul 17 2014 23:14 utc | 90
lysias these are my thoughts too, much similarity to the Syrian Sarin fiasco, which was later 'proven' to have originated from 'rebel held areas'.
There will be an investigation, and then 'proof'. They will claim satellite 'proof'. Kerry will powder his face of clay and tell us all what really happened.
The outcome has been decided.
Posted by: L Bean | Jul 17 2014 23:14 utc | 91
@brian #86:
Ukrainians have deployed Buk systems in Donbass (according to Russia), and the Ukie military has a history of shooting down airliners accidentally. (In fact, they were the last ones to do so, as I said in a previous post.)
As for a bomb: honestly, if you already have a war zone and long-range SAMS, shooting a plane down is just easier. Also, the plane came down on land, so there will probably be enough forensic evidence to determine if it was a bomb or a missile. (Russian investigators are probably already on the rebel-controlled territory.)
Ukrainian Army with Surface to Air missiles near Donetsk on July 5th (see 0:50)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2eGNPJlkMo
Posted by: Paty Kerry | Jul 17 2014 23:19 utc | 93
the plane was being guided over ukraine by ukrainian air traffic contrllers before it disaoppeared off the radars.
vladimir Suchan, a czech academic on his FB page is saying a source in russian air traffic control told TASS that ukaines security agency decided to close the airspace above Donetsk and Kugansk republics 3 days ago, contradicting ukrainian sources.
Posted by: brian | Jul 17 2014 23:21 utc | 94
"Vladimir Putin just killed 154 Dutch and 23 Americans"???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdRQJBCOvnc
Posted by: Paty Kerry | Jul 17 2014 23:23 utc | 95
according to Suchan , 8 of the 12 black boxes from LH17 have been retrieved by forces of the Donetsk Peoples republic
https://www.facebook.com/vladimir.suchan
Posted by: brian | Jul 17 2014 23:24 utc | 96
Wild speculations will continue unabated, unless an independent and impartial body is allowed to investigate, which will not happen in a war zone --and they know it.
Who will perform the necessary disaster recovery operations;
respectful gathering the remains of loved ones, the refrigeration in morgues where power plants have been bombed, autopsies of the diseased, investigative operations, like black box recovery, analysis of part of the plane for explosive residue, and the forensic reconstruction of the plane parts?
Moreover, what happens when the eastern regions of Ukraine attempt a recovery operation, and they are attack by Kiev's forces? Kiev's fascist forces have no history for any compassion whatsoever.
We do not even know if the plane was shot down or remotely hijacked and driven into the ground. All of the factual evidence is on the ground; everything else is hearsay. Moreover, no one will take the word of anyone involved in the conflict.
Who is neutral and has credibility in this regard? This tragic event could be used to put an end to this insane civil/proxy war or it could be used to widen it.
Spanish air traffic controller based in Kiev says the plane was escorted by two fighter planes Ukrainian before disappearing @ spainbuca
Carlos. @ spainbuca
El avión B 777 Voló escoltado por 2 cazas ukraine hasta minutos antes de los Radares of desaparecer,
9:48 - 17 июля 2014 г.
El avión B 777 Voló escoltado por 2 cazas ukraine hasta minutos antes de los Radares of desaparecer,
Carlos. @ spainbuca
Sí las autoridades kiev, quieren decir la verdad, esta muy recogido 2 cazas volaron cerca minutos antes, no lo derribo a caza
9:54 - 17 июля 2014 г.
http://rusvesna.su/news/1405625238
Carlos. @ spainbuca
The plane flew B 777 escorted by two fighter ukraine until minutes before disappearing from the radar,
9:48 - 17 июля 2014 г.
The plane flew B 777 escorted by two fighter ukraine until minutes before disappearing from the radar,
Carlos. @ spainbuca
Yes kiev authorities want to tell the truth, I picked this 2 fighters flew very close minutes before, not shooting down a fighter
9:54 - 17 июля 2014 г....
Posted by: brian | Jul 17 2014 23:30 utc | 98
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyxIiW9m2mM
From clip above, it seems to me that the 777 from doomed MH17 flight hit the ground pretty much in one piece. At the impact fuel ignited and exploded resulting in large black smoke. A fuel tanks are in wings of airplane, in later models of 777 there is center fuel tank thus "connecting" those in wings.
Now, missile 9M37-1/9M38 of Buk M-1 complex has a head filled with 70 kg of high-intensity explosive. If it had exploded anywhere near MH17...it would have created so-called "high-energy event". That event caused that debris of Pan Am flight over Scotland could be found in area of 80 miles.
There is no other video that I am aware of which showing last moments of MH17.
Posted by: neretva'43 | Jul 17 2014 23:32 utc | 99
The tone from the endless stream of "expert opinion" dragged through the network and cable news circuit has become, positively hysterical...literally foaming at the mouth hysterical..Russia this and Putin that..we needed no confirmation from the "US intelligence community" that they 'aren't looking anywhere else'..
Posted by: Marc | Jul 17 2014 23:35 utc | 100
The comments to this entry are closed.
The story stinks. The most foul odor
I have been following this for almost an hour
including a video embed from the Telegraph
if anyone here can translate it that would be great
Posted by: Penny | Jul 17 2014 17:00 utc | 1