Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 23, 2014

No Evidence - Administration's MH17 Case Against Russia Falls Apart

The federalists fighting in east Ukraine just took down two more SU-25 ground attack fighters that were bombing their positions. The weapons used against these planes are either simple air-defense guns or short ranged missiles unlike the missiles that allegedly took down the Malaysian passenger jet.

The case the Obama administration made against the federalists and Russia in connection with that MH-17 flight is completely falling apart.

Even the aggressive State Department spokesperson has to admit (vid) there is no real evidence at all. The "mountain of evidence" Secretary of State Kerry talked about is nothing but doctored photos and sound files provided by the Ukrainian coup government. One photo, for example, is supposed to show a missile system in federalists hands in a town in east Ukraine. But two reporters asking locals there can not find anyone who has seen the bulky and loud system. The photo is therefore likely a montage.

After being public criticized for showing no real evidence the Obama administration trotted out some "senior intelligence officials" who then admitted that they have nothing, NOTHING, to connect the case to Russia and only vague circumstantial "social media evidence" that federalists COULD have downed the jet:

But the officials said they did not know who fired the missile or whether any Russian operatives were present at the missile launch. They were not certain that the missile crew was trained in Russia, although they described a stepped-up campaign in recent weeks by Russia to arm and train the rebels, which they say has continued even after the downing of the commercial jetliner.

In terms of who fired the missile, "we don't know a name, we don't know a rank and we're not even 100 percent sure of a nationality," one official said, adding at another point, "There is not going to be a Perry Mason moment here," a referenc to a fictional detective who solved mysteries.

Most damning for the case may be this:

The senior intelligence officials said spy agencies were not aware that an SA-11 system was in eastern Ukraine until the attack had happened.

So the alleged transfer of such a big weapon system from Russia was either not observable for the multi-billion dollar, all seeing, all hearing U.S. intelligence or it never happened. Case closed.

But the neolibcons in the Obama administration do not despair yet. The murky Ukrainian company that hired Vice President Biden's son is now paying more lobbyists in Washington. The bribes will flow in bigger amounts. The lies from the Obama administration, and especially from Kerry, will continue as its tries everything possible to restart a Cold War against Russia or, if possible, even a hot one.

Let the Europeans bleed. As long as the U.S. is safe everything is hunky dory.

Posted by b on July 23, 2014 at 12:28 UTC | Permalink

next page »

"Russian audio recording experts revealed over the weekend that the intercepts invoked by Kiev and its Western supporters turn out to be FAKE. Reputed digital sound analyst Nikolai Popov and his expert team examined the files made public by the Kiev intelligence services, and they found that the files had been DOCTORED from separate and UNRELATED conversations.
On first hearing, the alleged conversations tend to implicate the self-defence militia in firing a missile at the passenger plane. But on closer examination, the digital fingerprints show that the files were fabricated, taken from separate recordings and spliced together to give the IMPRESSION of integral conversations.
Moreover – and this is crucial – the sound analysis of digital data shows that the tapes were engineered the day BEFORE Flight MH17 was seemingly hit by a missile and blown out of the sky.
This latest discovery makes for some incontrovertible and deeply unsettling conclusions: firstly, parties were involved in DELIBERATELY FORGING the files with the purpose of FRAMING others – the self-defence militia and Moscow; secondly, and more disturbingly, the people who faked the files MUST HAVE KNOWN THAT THE AIRLINER WAS GOING TO BE HIT with a missile, or some other catastrophic external force, in order to bring it down with all the horrific loss of life entailed."

Posted by: brian | Jul 23 2014 12:38 utc | 1

b. Burisma, the company you mention hiring lobbyists, who also employed a former Polish chancellor and Biden's son, presumably is owned by Kolomoisky.

The - US "not having any evidence" - sounds like they know who downed the plane and it is not a side that can be connected to Russia.

European secret services will have a good idea, too.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 23 2014 13:22 utc | 2

One photo, for example, is supposed to show a missile system in federalists hands in a town in east Ukraine. But two reporters asking locals there can not find anyone who has seen the bulky and loud system. The photo is therefore likely a montage.

I agree with you that the Obama Administration and the Western media have not presented proper evidence, and I say as much in my most recent blog post, but that doesn't preclude the possibility backwoods Eastern Ukrainian pro-Russian separatists (or Russians for short) didn't bring down the plane with a Buk anti-aircraft missile system and that if they did, they could have done it purposely knowing it was a civilian aircraft. We don't know, so anything's possible and on the table. In fact, as I state in my latest blog post, at this point we're never going to know, so trying to prove or disprove anything related to this incident is a lesson in futility.

But to call these hoodlum warlords "federalists" is too funny. So this is the latest terminology to describe Russian hicks. Got it. I wonder what they'll be referred to next week because the terminology changes week to week and it just keeps getting better and better.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Jul 23 2014 13:35 utc | 3

#3;Zionist hicks are called scumbags.
When does the POTUS impeachment process begin?Oh,nevermind.
Disaster after disaster after disaster.

Posted by: dahoit | Jul 23 2014 13:44 utc | 4

Ukraine to demand DPR, LPR be declared terrorist organizations - Poroshenko
And Martial Law.

Posted by: TikTok | Jul 23 2014 13:59 utc | 5

Yep, just read in der Spiegel and die Zeit - new Sanctions against Russia. Are they all crazy?

Posted by: Fran | Jul 23 2014 14:03 utc | 6

Video - Elena from Sloviansk - June 18th - English subtitles

describing Ukrainian fighter planes hiding behind passenger planes to bomb the city.

So the pro-Russians knew the Ukrainian government was trying to do this and did their best not to fall into the trap.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 23 2014 14:03 utc | 7

Interesting analysis here.....

Posted by: notlurking | Jul 23 2014 14:04 utc | 8

@3 CNH, you may think you're a good American, but you're obviously a statist and an interventionist, so that ultimately makes you an enemy of freedom. I don't know that you're a "Zionist," but I also don't think that's any prerequisite for foolishness.

Posted by: Jon Lester | Jul 23 2014 14:13 utc | 9

In 2000 the price of oil was about thirty dollars. Today it is around $100.
The main beneficiaries of this price revolution are marginal hydrocarbon producers: the frackers and the shale/oil sand miners, whose production costs are so high that production at less than $40 a barrel is uneconomical.

Perhaps this is why the Canadian government, a jointly owned subsidiary of the oil companies, is so anxious to impose sanctions on Russia which will immediately increase oil and gas prices globally.

Those benefiting from the tragedy involving the airliner also include a wide range of anti-EU ("Fuck the EU!") interests, including those who regard European manufacturing and technology as the main competition to US firms. It is no accident that the neo-cons, as a political force, were organised around the Senator from Boeing, after whom the international neo-con organisation the Henry M Jackson Society is named. Opposition to Airbus and other European industries, including the French shipyards that built the Mistral cruiser for Russia, is extremely excited at the prospect of cutting off or controlling the energy supplies for the German auto manfacturers, for example.

And then there is a significant body of opinion, which includes the Polish ultra nationalists, which sees the crippling of Germany's economy as a desirable object.

Finally there is the reserve currency question: Russia could easily arrange barter and euro/rouble deals which would cut the dollar out of its gas trade with Europe. This would be of particular benefit to the EU economies, which already enjoy significant advantages, over the US, in dealing with Russia and China. It would be a fundamental boost too, to efforts to replace the IMF and World Bank duopoly.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 23 2014 14:18 utc | 10

Posted by: notlurking | Jul 23, 2014 10:04:22 AM | 8

That sums it up. The Ukrainian "government" has got a huge problem.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 23 2014 14:27 utc | 11

Much has been made of the separatists having, using then scuppering away with PHOTOS from several angles. Note the photocredit is Barcroft Media.

“Major U.S. broadcast and cable news organizations all say the same thing: they don’t pay for news. But with tabloid stories—many derived from dubious and often cash-up-front sources—becoming ever more important audience drivers, those guidelines can become very hazy very quickly. And that’s where Barcroft Media comes in.
Growing out of the venerable pay-for-play world of the British media, Barcroft, which controversially brokered the story of the Texas man who lost his face to a power line is more than willing to go where the American media won’t.
“Sometimes we operate purely as a news agency and sometimes we might have [contractual] arrangements with people,” says Alex Morris, London editor at Barcroft, just a bit elliptically. “We straddle a few different lines.”

Posted by: Ben Franklin | Jul 23 2014 14:30 utc | 12

but you're obviously a statist and an interventionist, so that ultimately makes you an enemy of freedom.

This is a false accusation. I am in no way that. Have I not made it clear that I am dead-set against Russia's annexation of Crimea and its intervention in Ukraine proper? For the record, I do not agree with or support Western meddling in the country either. I've made it clear in all my blog posts where I stand on all this. To claim "Russia Stands For Freedom" is beyond absurd.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Jul 23 2014 14:31 utc | 13

Also; the issue of what kind of missile? Air-to-air or SAM? Buks have a proximity fuse but ejects shrapnel. Air-to-air typically are pin/rod ejecta and one photo showed a portion of fuselage that looked like pin penetration.

Posted by: Ben Franklin | Jul 23 2014 14:33 utc | 14

Perhaps this is why the Canadian government, a jointly owned subsidiary of the oil companies, is so anxious to impose sanctions on Russia which will immediately increase oil and gas prices globally.

Ummmm...Russia benefits from the artificially high price of oil. In fact, Russia couldn't and wouldn't do what it's been doing without that pure profit. So, if what you say is true, and I believe it is to a certain extent, Russia benefits from the backdoor tax. The sanctions are feckless window dressing. Behind the scenes it's Business As Usual.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Jul 23 2014 14:35 utc | 15

@3,@13,@15...fuck off and die, you piece of shit!

Posted by: bfrakes | Jul 23 2014 14:43 utc | 16

the goddamn ukies shot down that plane,and the us knows it because we told them to do it,or something like it, because it's who we are:pieces of shit just like cold n. fucking holefield...

Posted by: bfrakes | Jul 23 2014 14:50 utc | 17

@Cold N. Holefield #3:

But to call these hoodlum warlords "federalists" is too funny. So this is the latest terminology to describe Russian hicks.
There is no need to be prolix. There is a well established term for "Russian hicks" – Ukrainians. They even have an alleged country named after them.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 23 2014 14:56 utc | 18

@Demian #18

Har! Absolutely true, though the more correct term is "Хохлы".

Posted by: ДжММ | Jul 23 2014 15:11 utc | 19

@3,@13,@15...fuck off and die, you piece of shit!
Posted by: bfrakes | Jul 23, 2014 10:43:58 AM | 16

No, no, no, Cold Horseshit is invaluable entertainement!

Posted by: acrimonious | Jul 23 2014 15:20 utc | 20

I'm vaguely hopeful that the issues (and discrepancies in reporting) about the "next sanctions" is evidence of a an ongoing and developing rift. More American belligerence and disappointment that the Europeans are not as gung-ho to cripple Russia/Putin. I wonder how the EU body feels about Kiev's management of both these crises ... cough... gotta dance with them you bought, but still... it's one thing to kill your own "separatists", another when internal conflicts and mismanagement of the airspace results in international collateral damage.

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 23 2014 15:36 utc | 21

This is what has to be driven home - The rebels in the DPR COULD NOT, have shot down a jet aircraft at 33,000 ft. even if they had one or 2 functional BUK missiles -0which is not at all apparent. Using a long range high altitude antiaircraft system like the SAM in question is not like breaking clay birds with a shot gun - one doesn't shoot from the hip on sight, it requires having an AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL SYSTEM . The rebels obviously have no such system. Th3ey have no advanced warning no long range radar tracking and none of the infrastructure required to use this kind of weapon. This leaves only Russia and the Ukraine and absolutely NO EVIDENCE AT ALL implicates Russia. This massacre is brought to you courtesy of the Pig Farm in Kiev and IF the lying western media tropes were applied accurately, this is exactly what should have been expected from installing that ilk to power in an illegal coup, and then shielding them from any consequences of their behavior at all..The US/EU AXIS IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS AND THEIR LYING MEDIA AND THIER WILL BE MORE.

Posted by: Marc | Jul 23 2014 15:36 utc | 22

oh, you mean like jon "stewart" liebowitz? bill "maher"? jen pisski, or marie barf?

Posted by: bfrakes | Jul 23 2014 15:38 utc | 23

Using the term "federalists" in exchange "separatists" discredits the argumentation of bloggers.

In the long history of World I can find not one war fought over simply "federalism."

Once shots are fired in anger the modus becomes "separatism" is what we see in E. Ukraine.

Overwhelming problem for the "separatists" is that Putin will not and cannot legitimise them.

That this is so clearly a backdoor operation the same as previously seen in other conflicts and also practiced by the US doesn't mean Russia is angelic in this event.

Posted by: chalo | Jul 23 2014 15:40 utc | 24

The EU and MF are in unison. As long as austerity is agreed upon, all war crimes will be forgiven.

Posted by: Ben Franklin | Jul 23 2014 15:42 utc | 25


once shots fired in anger modus becomes "separatism" or conquest.

Posted by: chalo | Jul 23 2014 15:42 utc | 26

Posted by: chalo | Jul 23, 2014 11:42:40 AM | 26

The correct political description for both sides in Ukraine is "proxy".

Posted by: somebody | Jul 23 2014 15:58 utc | 27

I was speaking today with an old friend who was in the Bulgarian (Soviet) army, and his conclusion is that the SA-11 cannot down that plane. He concurred with Blazov's statement that the missile would probably leave the plane in a state that it could land.

Posted by: Johan Meyer | Jul 23 2014 16:02 utc | 28

Why can't Russia stand for freedom? Because of her communist, Gulag-rich past? Because they do not feel the need to take Western diktats in every open orifice? Because of her corruption? Show me a Western gov't, or ANY gov't that is not corrupt. That does not pressure journalists, directly or indirectly to toe the party line of whomever is in power.
Russia has been remarkably restrained in the face of constant provocation on their borders. Their actions show they are seeking diplomatic solutions to problems and attempting to stay within int'l law...which is more than can be said for some hysterical lying twats who seek to destabilize and solve problems through subterfuge and violence.
They have come a long way in the last 25 years. It seems nowadays you have to kiss Amerikan ass as a nation to be accepted and considered civilized and humane, and if you dare chart your own course, you become a pariah.
Glad to see someone call out US bullshit.

Posted by: Prey4Justice | Jul 23 2014 16:03 utc | 29

The United States has such as scorched earth response to dissidents -- regardless of our "Bill of Right" -- as can be seen in Wounded Knee, Waco, Ruby Ridge and any paltry number of other "dissident acts." Our strategy used to be to simply to depoliticize them, declare them "criminals" and destroy them. In much of the rest of the world there are long-standing "beefs" and/or separatist movements/populations -- Spain with ETA, Spain with Catalonia, Northern Ireland, Kurds, Gypsies (Rom) etc. In evaluating foreign conflict, we have tended to choose "good guys" and "bad guys" and provide black and white headgear along with overwhelming hardware/communications/surveillance advantage to our designated "good guys" (and leave the bad guys and unlucky civilian populations to be efficiently slaughtered).
I'm not going to get all "Rodney King" about how we all need to get along, but ... as they say, war tends succeed only in setting the battle lines of the next war/conflict

Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 23 2014 16:04 utc | 30

@ chalo @ 24,26,27

Those are interesting observations chalo but they ignore, as does all pro US or "anti-Russian" apologia the fact of the referendums conducted before the war. The truth is, Kiev needed no confirmation of a vote to begin its campaign of state terror against the east. All knew before the shooting started that these regions are entirely Russian in language culture and history , so I really don't understand your characterization of this being an "entirely backdoor thing" if the will of the people on the ground in Novorussiya was for you, or some other irrelevant disinterested remote party to ignore because it doesn't fit your narrative of "Russian aggression".

Posted by: Marc | Jul 23 2014 16:06 utc | 31

thanks b,

@10 bevin - i like your rationale for why our canadian gov't are so supportive of sanctions on russia.. meanwhile these same oil/gas corps are turning canada into an environmental disaster..well, i'll accept some responsibility as i drive a car too, but geez we need to be adopting alternative means if we're ever to get out of the need for oil and all it entails.

@22 marc.. i agree with you and think that needs to be really driven home too. it would be great to see someone super knowledgeable on the in's and out's of those buk system missiles completely dismiss the possibility of this, but i don't know that is the case..

Posted by: james | Jul 23 2014 16:16 utc | 32

@8 notlurking.. that is good and balanced analysis. thanks for sharing.

Posted by: james | Jul 23 2014 16:27 utc | 33

Zero Hedge is reporting Putin may be calling back the Duma for an emergency session. Lots of speculation on what for. The next few days will be very interesting.

Also, I need a bag of popcorn to watch the western claims deflate in real time. My assumption is that the European leadership's own Intel, combined with what might have been shared via Russia, had them telling the US back-channel that they weren't willing to lie to their publics' and risk falling on their swords again like with the bogus Iraqi WMD intelligence. Likewise I wonder if team Obama got push back from the US intel agencies and military who weren't willing to go forward with such an obvious pack of lies.

Care to place odds on Seymour Hersh or Bob Woodward being passed data from disaffected beltway insiders on the real scoop in the next few months? I'm sure there are a LOT of republican generals who'd love to knife the administration if they think they can get away with it. Leaking data that the Ukrainians themselves shot it down would be a massive blow to Obama's already defunct credibility on the world stage.

Posted by: thepanzer | Jul 23 2014 16:29 utc | 34

Some internet news items I have recently read puzzle me and I would be interested in any clarification by anyone _

Malaysian airliner was specifically rerouted from its normal flight plan to fly over the Ukraine war zone

A fighter plane was observed in the vicinity of the Malaysian airliner prior to it being destroyed

A US satellite was above the war zone and has observational data of the war zone at that time
Will the US release this data ?

A Russian satellite has data relating to the incident.

Why would the pro-Russian rebels want to shoot down a civilian airliner ? what benefit would it have to them and their cause ?

In the last couple of days hysterical Russia bashing by the Western press has suddenly died down at least on the internet news sites that I visit

Thanks for any response/clarification

Posted by: curious | Jul 23 2014 16:30 utc | 35

notlurking @8

The blog article you linked to states:

"If they were Ukrainian forces, they are likely to have believed they were defending against a Russian military attack they had been expecting as retaliation for Ukrainian artillery shelling across the Russian frontier last week."

Seriously? Ukrainian troops thought a plane coming from the northwest at very high altitude was a Russian military aircraft? More likely believed by whom? Ukrainians caught with their hands in the cookie jar? This is a fine example of apologetics for Ukraine's actions.

Posted by: Yonatan | Jul 23 2014 16:43 utc | 36

No obama cant stop, he will send people to help kill more people in ukraine

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 23 2014 16:44 utc | 37

US policy is made by people who think that what works in the United States will work everywhere else. What works in the US are poll-tested smear campaigns carried by mass advertisement. It''s worked for the past 60 years and especially since Lee Atwater perfected it for Bush I in the 1988 campaign. American politics is all tactics and no strategy. So far the Big Lie has worked pretty well at home: abroad, not so much, which is why the Administration are at a loss in situations where they do not have the option of applying overwhelming unansweable force. They are in an ocean where they do not know how to swim. Rice and Kerry are beyond pathetic, and Obama is just behind. I guess they didn't pay attention during the False Flag module in their foreign policy course. No matter what JSorr thinks, I believe these people are working above their pay grade. Why Can't the MOTU get a more competent crew of flunkies. It's not like their is any shortage of people ready to sell out their country for 15 minutes of fame and a cushy foundation presidency after.

Posted by: Knut | Jul 23 2014 17:07 utc | 38

Posted by: Yonatan | Jul 23, 2014 12:43:16 PM | 36

The assumption being that there was a fighter plane close to the civilian aircraft which either pro Russians or Ukrainians shot at.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 23 2014 17:14 utc | 39

major air defence exercise prior 911,
anti terrorism drill before london 77 bombing,
mh370 vanished from thin air amidst major air sea exercise in scs !

and now....
mh17 allegedly shot down during another nato exercise ?

ever heard of the ian fleming's law of probability ?
once is accident, twice is coincidence,
thrice.....enemy action. !!!

Posted by: denk | Jul 23 2014 17:14 utc | 40

@ Cold: "but that doesn't preclude the possibility backwoods Eastern Ukrainian pro-Russian separatists (or Russians for short) didn't bring down the plane with a Buk anti-aircraft missile system"

It also doesn't preclude the possibility that the tooth fairy did it, or the reptilian aliens. Your conclusions are quite nonsensical, as is your logic in this case.

To put it simple, it could have been literally anyone. The more serious take would be to look at the parties involved and the material evidence so far and then think about the possibilities, instead of juggling with impossibilities.

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 23 2014 17:16 utc | 41

Could this explain the 14killometer detour Mh17 took that Russian intelligence can't explain or I'm I being too conspiratorial??

Boeing Patents Airliner Anti-Terrorist System ---Autopilot Autolands Aircraft For Incapacitated Crew

new "uninterruptible" autopilot developed by Boeing and patented in Canada purportedly flies and lands the aircraft in case the crew is incapacitated.

An autopilot that can fly and land an airliner isn't new, but one that activates itself when it senses excessive force on the cockpit door is (the crew may also activate it manually).

Even that feature isn't as controversial as this: once initiated, the system may not be disengaged by anyone aboard the aircraft.

Once engaged, Boeing's system will accept directions from ground-based controllers. The controversy stems from concerns over what might happen should the system malfunction -- or worse, should terrorists gain control of an aircraft from the ground.

Or this:

Boeing wins patent on uninterruptible autopilot system,

Boeing’s is, of course, not the first autopilot technology in existence, but this one has been designed with counterterrorism first and foremost in mind. Not only is it “uninterruptible” — so that even a tortured pilot cannot turn it off — but it can be activated remotely via radio or satellite by government agencies. The system might even include senors on the cockpit door that activate the autopilot of a certain amount of force is used against it. “There is a need for a technique that ensures the continuation of the desired path of travel of a vehicle by removing any type of human decision process that may be influenced by the circumstances of the situation, including threats or further violence onboard the vehicle,” the patent application explains. To make it fully independent, the system also has its own power supply, independent of the aircraft’s circuit breakers.

Posted by: plantman | Jul 23 2014 17:23 utc | 42

In his article today, Pepe Escobar notes the biggest piece of evidence that proves no BUK missile was fired--no thick, easily visible contrail from the alleged missile that would sill have hung in the air when MH17 hit the ground--and this lack of evidence has many proponents, myself included. "The damaged MH17 starboard jet engine suggests a shape charge from an air-to-air missile - and not a Buk; that's consistent with the Russian Ministry of Defense presentation graphically highlighting an Ukrainian SU-25 shadowing MH17. Increasingly, the Buk scenario - hysterically peddled by the Empire of Chaos - is being discarded. Not to mention, again, that not a single eyewitness saw the very graphic, thick missile trace that would have been clearly visible had a Buk been used."

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 23 2014 17:46 utc | 43

Pretty devastating footage, the missile warhead with fragmentation shrapnel must have exploded right underneath cockpit at front side of plane - photo. [port front of cockpit = left side]

This is a Malaysian Boeing 777 at Schiphol airport.

Posted by: Oui | Jul 23 2014 17:58 utc | 44

Another a close parallel between Ghouta and MH17 is the resultant caterwauling when the false flag failed to fly. There is a story in the NYT today about the petulant cries emanating from Kiev now that it is apparent that Germany is not going to be stampeded into leveling more sanctions on Russia.

Obama's consigliere Denis McDonough was in Berlin trying yet again to line Merkel up against Moscow. It is not going to happen. Blowing apart a passenger jet didn't work, and neither did gassing a bunch of women and children. But the U.S. and its various clients and proxies will keep trying. We can count on that.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Jul 23 2014 18:23 utc | 45

To put it simple, it could have been literally anyone. The more serious take would be to look at the parties involved and the material evidence so far and then think about the possibilities, instead of juggling with impossibilities.

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 23, 2014 1:16:09 PM | 40

Oh, okay, I get it. In that case, from the "physical evidence" I've reviewed, Russia did it and set the "federalists" up as Lee Harvey Oswald. Thanks for setting me straight. This is fun. No hard work necessary. Just go with your best guess based on the "evidence."

Why would Russia do it, you ask? Because they want to further destabilize Ukraine and this is a sure bet to further deepen the conflict.

Done. Next please. See how easy this is? What's not to like?

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Jul 23 2014 18:26 utc | 46

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 23, 2014 1:46:23 PM | 42

And by virtue of that, we know it must have been a Russian jet fighter that brought the plane down, or perhaps the FSB smuggled a bomb on board and detonated it over East Ukraine. I bet I could find any number of people who can take the photos of the wreckage and present a convincing case that it was a Russian bomb smuggled on board that brought down Flight 17. Thanks Pepe Escobabble for setting us straight. Who needs the NTSB when we have Pepee Escobabble?

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Jul 23 2014 18:32 utc | 47

Even CN Holefield is sounding a bit desperate. Popcorn time indeed.

Posted by: mrd | Jul 23 2014 18:36 utc | 48

Yonatan @#36,

Yes, the idea proposed that a Ukrainian missile crew would have thought that they were firing at a Russian military airplane flying - at high altitude - from the Northwest also made zero sense to me. If indeed the Russian military were to be attacking Ukrainian positions in retaliation for cross-border shelling, why in the world would they be coming from that direction and at a high altitude? They would have come screaming in at tree top level, hugging the contours of the terrain, and following a much shorter and more direct route to the positions that they were to attack. A long, high altitude attack approach would have made absolutely no sense for a number of reasons, particularly assuming that the Russians would have even done anything like this, and a major assumption it would have to be considering all of the provocative incidents let go past by the Russians up to now with no visible retaliations being in evidence.

No, if the Ukrainians had actually fired a missile at a plane cruising at 3000+ meters coming from the Northwest, then they would have been intending to shoot down a civilian aircraft, not as suggested by this lame "hypothesis", at an aircraft feared to be from the Russian military.

But even there, the jury is still out about whether a ground-launched missile was even the cause. So, Mr. Helmer, no sale here.

Posted by: JerseyJeffersonian | Jul 23 2014 18:36 utc | 49

So now, there it is
Vostok battalian commander explains rebels had buks, Kiev knew about it and provoked the shooting of the civilian air liner.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 23 2014 18:39 utc | 50

See my post above - #43

Interesting, FT Europe explains photo thus: MH17 crash: FT photo shows signs of damage from missile strike.

Dutch Safety Board takes over lead of international crash investigation Malaysia MH-17

Posted by: Oui | Jul 23 2014 18:40 utc | 51

@thepanzer (34):

Care to place odds on Seymour Hersh or Bob Woodward being passed data from disaffected beltway insiders on the real scoop in the next few months?

Now that this whole false-flag op is clearly failing, what we're likely to get from Hersh or Woodward are a bunch of leaks from the CIA shifting blame for the operation from the 'The Company' to the Ukies. 'Oh, no!' they'll insist. 'We had nothing to do with it. It was entirely Keiv's doing.' Then they'll proceed to tell us all in great detail about a secret operation they supposedly had nothing to do with.

Posted by: Seamus Padraig | Jul 23 2014 18:58 utc | 52

MH17 is a case of get in and early with your version (US) of events.

Remember Benghazi? First it was a pro-muslim demo that went out of control and on the rampage. I and two others on this board immediately said BS, because it was presented as a reaction to an anti-Islam film which, I have forgotten the details now, only had a mild trailer, was not available / seen by anyone, or not even produced yet. In any case such a demo would not kill ambassador “Stevie.”

Then it was downscaled in the news to a ‘small demo’ that confused the situation and finally — now, there was no demo at all ...

WaPo, March 2014.

The public has only the first glaring headlines and they don’t forget them, which is of course the point. Putin as Hitler is to be impressed on the public’s mind-set is similar.

Sure kicking in open doors, many here are aware of such manipulations.

However, it grows thin when one has to back down in the space of a few days. Although one can write it off with ‘confusion on the ground’, ‘inadequate information’ (I don’t think so), etc. Both the US and Russia know or suspect what happened to MH17. But revealing is a piece of a long term now gruesome political hysterical war, fought for now in the MSM.

My reading is that beyond prop. purposes against Russia (a new cold war or boiling up to hot, and so on which distracts from the ME failures and Israel, and most important, keeping the EU from aligning with Russia or China, the BRICS, etc.) is that the US cannot admit it’s mistake in accidentally falling into the Ukrainian cauldron, which is at heart a fight between fiefdoms and oligarchs with all the private underground hoopla which the US (neo-con-libs..) cannot possibly understand or manage, beyond financing their temporary ‘champions’ or ‘allies’ etc.

Sure, the US has been meddling in the ex-USSR and the ‘Stans, the human rights democracy etc. BS, not denying that, but when called on to step up to the plate, get really involved, there is not much on hand except obfuscation, favoritism towards one or another ‘partner’ (vassal, stage-front puppet, paid off goons shills on the take etc.), with massive destruction, which serves the arms-milit-contractors-big Corps and the MSM. This scorched-earth policy provides quick and massive profits and self-felt kudos short-term for some, but then what?

As for MH17, all the guff about ground to air missiles was clamoured because that was the only way the separatists could be blamed. That was planned, from about 3 - 10 months ago, imho.

How it was brought down is another would be good to get to the nitty gritty of that.

Posted by: Noirette | Jul 23 2014 19:13 utc | 53

today the saker has a pretty good overview on the us intelligence comments here

Posted by: james | Jul 23 2014 19:17 utc | 54

@james - #54

Saker's page has been removed. Here is a copy at The Burning Platform

Posted by: Oui | Jul 23 2014 19:45 utc | 55

An interesting leak....

"(Australian) Prime Minister Tony Abbott has asked Defence chiefs and senior government officials to prepare plans for Australia to join a possible multinational force to enter Ukraine to secure the crash site of MH17.

Hardening his language around the need for international intervention to ensure a genuine air crash investigation and recovery effort is conducted, Mr Abbott on Wednesday signalled he was willing to send more Australians to Ukraine to enforce the United Nations resolution that the almost 300 victims are recovered ''with immediate effect''. "

Now nothing Australia does is on its own now, so we can reasonably speculate the he has been contacted by the US to sound him out to see if we would send forces to the Ukraine.

Posted by: oldskpetic | Jul 23 2014 19:53 utc | 56

@55 oui.. thanks

@56 oldskpetic. is this the first step lingo towards nato on ukraine soil? sounds like it to me.. abbott a good christian with a lot of evangelical zeal for following thru on the neo cons wet dreams.. impressive.. maybe he'd like to put a few of his folks on the ground in gaza too?

Posted by: james | Jul 23 2014 20:06 utc | 57

No, the Saker page isn't removed the link is broken.
It should be this.

Posted by: acrimonious | Jul 23 2014 20:27 utc | 58

"… The Europeans bleed."

You mean Ukrainians, Russians? Who are these "Europeans"?

Thank God you have your Eurocorps. Chill, b.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 23 2014 20:27 utc | 59

The night is dark and full of terrors!

I think you've spent too much time with your shirtless-Putin photos. So, you're all in klepto-capitalism. What could possibly be more cartoonishly right wing then Putinism?

Certainly, you would not waste your time with this blog if you were born and raised in Bezirk Chemnitz.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 23 2014 20:47 utc | 60


How terrible is the truth, when there is no help in the truth.

Every American Ive talked with believes it was Putin, or just doesnt care, not with all those Migras, and the Muslim cockroaches our MFN Israel is 'fighting' for its life.

Glass the southern border.

Glass everything.

WW3 in 72 days.

Posted by: Chip Nihk | Jul 23 2014 21:29 utc | 61


Boeing did the beta testing for it on Sep11

Posted by: Chip Nihk | Jul 23 2014 21:38 utc | 62

I still suspect MH17 was diverted from Malaysia Air's normal flight path to over the combat area by meaconing. Now I learn that a military exercise, BREEZE 2014, involving the U.S. that included the use of electronic warfare and electronic intelligence aircraft as well as "commercial traffic monitoring" was going on in the Black Sea at the very moment the airliner was shot down. Wayne Madsen: MH-17: Beware of the «Chameleon»

Posted by: lysias | Jul 23 2014 21:49 utc | 63

On a quick note.
Perhaps someone ease can correct me, but
was the ukie army saved from a major military catastrophe
by the bringing down of the passenger plane, or am I
Imagining things?

Posted by: Forcibly | Jul 23 2014 21:54 utc | 64

Not "forcibly" , but rotciv

Posted by: Rotciv | Jul 23 2014 21:58 utc | 65

Oui's photo @44 and the story @51 seem like pretty strong evidense of a SAM explosion towards the front of the aircraft. And certainly a spray of shrapnel hitting the cockpit would if not outright kill the flight crew then badly damage flight controls. Another story I saw claimed the piece of the cockpit fell into someone's vegetable garden killing their cat, but that may have been detail added to make the monsters that did this look all the worse.

Speaking of monsters -

Perverted truth: How rebel mourning MH17 victims was turned into looter with trophy

I saw this photo the other day and in the Guardian and it had the intended effect. Turns out to be not quite the way it was made out to seem.

Posted by: Anon | Jul 23 2014 22:18 utc | 66

"Wounded Knee, Waco, Ruby Ridge and any paltry number of other "dissident acts."" Add Kent State, Jackson State, the murder of Fred ?hampton, the McCarthy Era, the Hollywood Blacklist, everything in the thick thick volumes produced by the Church Committee...

"What could possibly be more cartoonishly right wing then Putinism?"

Poor slothrop, he's been blindly following the tooting of the Pied Proyect's phony flute for so long, he can't even remember what "right-wing" and "fascism" means. Does Russia care for the health of its people? YES. Does Russia care for the housing of its people? YES. Does Russia have rising standards of living? YES. Does Russia have a powerful Communist Party? YES. Is the Russian government committed to a multi-ethnic state? YES. Does the Russian government work closely with its far-flung allies and reject "exceptionalist" and racist doctrines? YES. Do the Russians enter into mutually beneficial trading relationships with its partners? YES. Does Russia stand up against the forces of sectarianism? YES. Does Russia still remember its Soviet Past, including the massive sacrifice endured in the defeat of Nazi Germany? YES. Does the Russian government have the support of the vast majority of its people from all classes? YES. Does the Russian government reign in its oligarchs? YES.

Now go ask yourself all those questions about the USA, EU, and Israel and see what answers you come up with.

Can it, Sloth-ryect. Russia may not be the Soviet Union any more, but no USA-living phony leftists like you and your boss Louis Proyect are going to throw "cartoonishly right wing" at them, especially from your Laz-E-Boys on in Middle America. Especially while your country murders millions without anything more than a blog post or two from you clowns in opposition.


Posted by: guest77 | Jul 24 2014 0:13 utc | 67

So when we ask the question: "What could possibly be more cartoonishly right wing then Putinism?" let's respond with the following: almost every "Northern" government on this planet, to be sure, and most certainly the USA, the UK, France, Italy, Japan, and all of the craven little satrapies the keep in their iron grip.


@mrd: To be fair, Canker Q. Hangnail is always desperate. Break out the popcorn if you want, he makes me lose my appetite.

Posted by: guest77 | Jul 24 2014 0:20 utc | 68

(Saved by Norton)

"Saker's page has been removed. Here is a copy at..." ==> don't use it!

Posted by: x | Jul 24 2014 0:22 utc | 69

@46 Burrvus AKA Cold

To Destabilize a civil war? That is an oxymoron ... What are you saying? Stabilize the civil war?

Posted by: HAHA | Jul 24 2014 0:56 utc | 70

Everyone remember Igor Kolomoisky's phone call to that Ukrainian media hack, excuse me, CEO, where he yelled at the guy for not answering his phone fast enough? At the end of that conversation Kolomoisky said that he and super - creep Pairuby had "something nasty" planned. Im sure I assumed he was talking about another massacre like at Odessa. Its becoming clear to me what the "something nasty" was, and MH17 is "nasty" in true kolomoisky style. Igor owns his own army full of drunken right sector skin heads and scandanavian white supremacist mercenaries -he alo owns several BUK batteries and has hired Georgian "consultants" (mercenaries) to train his goons how to use them....

Posted by: Marc | Jul 24 2014 1:07 utc | 71

@ guest @ 67

I think sloth is a Proyect sock puppet..For one thing proyect has dozens of identities on web (do you think more than 3 people read all 6 of his worthless blogs?) ... . He loves to make up goofy names for himself and others. He has a truly ghastly, horrible, corny, actually, mentally retarded "sense of humor" which he seems to think is charming... He's so on top of every single state department misinformation campaign that I have often wondered if that's not his real job. I NEVER fucking heard of Looey proyect in the 60's .. where did this legend In his own mind this "last Marxist" come from anyway? I never heard of the clown until the 80's when I noticed he was one of the, "I used to be a trot when I was young and naïve" crowd - you know, of that ilk.

Posted by: Marc | Jul 24 2014 1:22 utc | 72

"Churkin tried to get the reference to the role of the Ukraine in the investigation removed from the text but Julia Bishop (the Australian foreign minister) refused (she did agree to Churkin's suggestion to substitute "downed" for "shot down"). The Russians were right not to veto the Resolution or to abstain on such a small point." SEE HERE

I disagree, this is not a small point! They always control the narrative so that the language used on an issue precludes the possibility of what actually happened ... IE "the towers fell" or "he slumped"!

Gordon Duff, forwards the idea that MH77 security is from the same security airport team that lost the last aircraft and VIPed the "crotch bomber" on-board another flight. Moreover, we are denied an overview of the wreckage area, which denies us knowing if the plane came down in one piece or scattered over a wide area. SEE HERE

Thus, this in not a small matter. "shot down" vs "downed" is to do what one does with a predetermined narrative. I would have not allowed anyone to control the language especially as the investigation is ongoing.

Posted by: HAHA | Jul 24 2014 2:40 utc | 73

Whatever, groovies, let your false flags fly!

All I know about Proyect is from counterpunch. He seems to like post bebop and Korean films. Good enough for me.

One of the joys of Billmon's site was that he played a fairly convincing fellow traveler. He always managed a humorous ruthless critique of Cheney/Bush by paying careful respect to the realities of global capitalism.

b just fetishizes The US "empire"

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 24 2014 2:51 utc | 74

Marc @ 31

By back door I mean as secretive assistance, not straightforward and direct as would be if Russia truly supported in good faith. As it stands, this rebellion does not seem very popular within the majority of Russians or even E. Ukrainians as a whole. This is the most telling point that is never considered.

There is merit also to the points you make about the peoples involved with Russian background wanting common state with Russia. I have sympathy for that feeling of alienation from the homeland. This I believe becomes more the normal condition in the world of increased mobility.

My point is the rebels cannot receive the open support from Russia that is required and thus are doomed to become unwitting proxies as somebody stated, crushed between the imperialist manipulations of uncaring outsiders. In my opinion I blame both Russian and the Western. I know that is not popular here but I see no .

However, as in the middle east trouble spots there are heart felt aspirations of people at the root in both Maidan and Donetsk/Lugansk. I reject the view that all is driven by cynical machinations although I admit that too is a part of the picture.

I am mostly saddened by the shock wave of tragedy sweeping another impoverished part of the globe.

Posted by: chalo | Jul 24 2014 4:17 utc | 75

Some Thoughts on slothrop, Proyect, Chomsky and Putinism: What is to be Done?


What could possibly be more cartoonishly right wing then Putinism?

Certainly, you would not waste your time with this blog if you were born and raised in Bezirk Chemnitz.

What could possibly be more cartoonishly left-wing than hysterical slothrop, or for that matter, grubby Little Louie Proyect, feverishly supporting the US-led, unipolar, Empire of humanitarian Imperialism, murderous hordes of mercenary marauding military Takfiris and Fascists, secret free trade deals, secret rendition, false flags, meretricious corporate media and social media, IMF imposed austerity, and hopeless grinding poverty for half of its denizens (who, of course, are free to sell their blood and organs, since humane work is not to be had, and blind obedience no longer pays)?

Well, at least Little Louie, the self-appointed sys-admin of Marxism (who has richly benefitted from a life sucking at the very tit of empire) can write well, and is knowledgeable and insightful about many things (see older issues of Swans). Although, it must be noted, that he reviews film with all of the insight of a 250 lb. 11 year old reviewing a new bounty of cookies, hot off the grocery racks, from the crumb-infested sweaty corners of his adolescent bedroom.

As opposed to Little Louie's hectoring Old Testament verbiage, slothrop sounds more like the patient who, upon awakening from the disorienting gas of the dentist's chair, feels around tentatively with his tongue amid the bloody tissue and sharp shards of enamel swimming about in his mouth only to find that the wrong tooth has been pulled! -- and yet manages angrily to spit out a few indignant, but unintelligible, syllables before passing out from shock. So writing well, slothrop, sadly,... not so much.

Is Putin a faultless socialist in shining armor standing up for the long-oppressed working class? Obviously not -- but one must live in the real world that exists around us, with the imperfect choices that exist around us, and not in the 11 year old imaginary world of shiny new, sleekly clothed, abundantly muscled, Karl Marx/Prince Pyotr Kropotkin comic book super-heroes swooping down from the etheric realms of Social Justice, their bushy beards peaking out from behind their anonymous "V for Vendetta" masks, to save (OK, if you're 12 years old, "organize") the honest Toilers of the fields and the factories from the predations of the evil Capitalists (Who are not even capitalists anymore, but an inbred gang of cronyist thugs whose very goal is to NOT compete).

slothrop and Louie, self-righteous as you are -- call the readers of this blog hopelessly naïve -- but ALL of us, I believe, from many different political, cultural and religious persuasions, would much rather see an imperfect International rule of law upheld by flawed populist sentiment, such as it may be, than rule by the most violent, sociopathic, and well armed criminals that the human race is capable of spawning, unquenchably grasping and clawing for "More" like a nightmarish horde of devilish Sisyphuses who labor with zombie-like resolution to achieve their goal of the "End of History." And I believe that most of us, having seen how easily perfectly legitimate grievances are subverted and redirected by the Global Oligarchs, and their dirty henchmen, utilizing Baudrillard-level, mass-media spectacle-inducing emotional hysteria and ad-campaign perfect Gene Sharp color revolutions, as in The Ukraine x 2, Libya, Egypt, etc., would settle for incremental change for the better, rather than waiting with messianic zeal for the "Big One" -- the incontrovertible, all-just, and eternal salvation of "The Revolution" by the blameless, high-minded and altruistic Workers of the World. And yes, I can say this with confidence, and still get teary eyed listening to David Rovics sing "After the Revolution."

One needn't throw away one's ideals to live in the real world.

Simply put, the past twenty five years have convinced us that a multi-polar world (with multiple "Development Banks" and multiple fungible currencies, and law written by multiple centers of power) could not possibly be worse than the "Washington Consensus" that has reigned since the fall of the Soviet Union.

Few, if any of us, believe that the worsening human and environmental standards, presciently depicted by Yeats as "Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world, The blood-dimmed tide..." brings us any closer to the "Second Coming." Perhaps if we had only studied "The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Napoleon" better...

I'm sure the two of you could point out where we have strayed from Marxist orthodoxy.

This is not to knock Marxism, or Marxian analysis, but only to point out that in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; but in practice, there is ;)

slothrop and Louie, with their attachment to idealization, and specifically to idealized Platonic worker-states, strike me as the type of person who would abandon a long-term beloved spouse because they farted too much, or their tits sagged, or they ate ice cream late at night and had a harmless crush on the 16 year old paperboy. Sorry guys, the real world is warty and imperfect -- live with it. "With the ideal comes the actual, like a box all with its lid..." (Sandokai, Zen scripture)

Indeed, it is the very attachment the two of you have to idealization (political idealization, in this case) that, despite all of your erudition, leaves you sounding like pre-teenage boys in harping at others and in prescribing solutions for the often thorny and intractable problems and challenges of the real world. Not to worry, you are in good company: despite Hugo Chavez catapulting Chomsky's book "Hegemony or Survival" onto the best-seller lists and world awareness, Chomsky had little love lost for Chavez, incessantly criticizing him. Simply put, the man who advocated voting for Gore in 2000 and Kerry in 2004, as "realistic alternatives to insane statists," did not find Chavez supportable. And yet, how many in the real world believe that Chomsky, despite all his erudition, could have done half the job Chavez did in holding the reigns of power against the full might of Empire and bettering the lives of the Venezuelan people. The very thought is laughable; he wouldn't have lasted five minutes in power, and would have been followed by a violent and deadly retrenchment. And you two, my friends, are no Chomskys, even.

One can read Chomsky with much profit, and still not agree with his political stances (Palestine comes to mind). Similarly, one can read Marx with much profit, and not use it as a modern day Bible to divine all of one's current political positions. Proyect is getting harder and harder to read with any profit, and slothrop, sad to say, is unreadable, regardless of any profit motive in personal reading.

Which brings us to your favorite charge -- "Putinism" -- that you so love to sling around. Yes, Putin is a Conservative and this is a generally left-leaning blog. In my pantheon of favorite recent world leaders, Fidel and Hugo place ahead of Volodya. But if you look dispassionately at what he has done for his country, and the world recently -- coming to power in arguably a more difficult and challenging situation than the others faced -- in a similar span of time, he has bettered the lives of his citizens as much as the other two. (None could compare to what Gaddaffi, with all his imperfections, achieved for his people, moving them from last to first place on the continent of Africa, progress that sadly is largely destroyed, much to your unalloyed glee.) In my brief time upon this planet, I have seen the world descend from the euphoria of Post-Colonial Africa, Civil Rights, and Kennedy tentatively standing up to the "Deep State," to, as Hobbes rightly predicted, with the Neoliberal destruction of the Social Contract and the covert conversion of corporate wish lists into International Law, a state of "bellum omnium contra omnes." Country after country is laid to waste in an ever more manic rush for complete control. The planet, and human society is in an immeasurably worse state than it was half a century ago. But it must be remembered that most of all the worst challenges facing the species at the moment -- rampant militarism, the chaotic destruction of states and the resulting human and environmental destruction, the frenetic rush for unlimited growth, Tar sands, nuclear pollution from depleted uranium, fracking, the destruction and commoditization of potable water, GMO's, the unrestrained vaccination and drugging of vast populations, the death of bees from persistent agrichemicals, etc. -- are of Western origin. If Putin can stop the unrestrained destruction of countries resisting US hegemony and create a true multi-polar world, as he publicly claims to be working towards, we also stand a much better chance of rolling back the unrestrained rights of corporations to own the planet. If he succeeds, I could leave this planet as optimistic as I came into it; if he fails, hope will be -- at least temporarily -- lost. So is this "Putinism?" One can call it a sort of negative Putinism: that is, not a slavish adherence to the details of social and economic policy in a land I do not live in, but an abiding concordance with the deeper geo-political goals of shaping a multi-polar global order. If that is Putinism, than I stand guilty as charged, as I believe you rightly perceive that most everyone on this blog stands equally guilty.

You guys are free to stand on the sidelines and jeer because the solution is not "leftist" enough or Marxist enough, and not completely just (which no one argues that it is.) It is just a single step away from the path to annihilation. But from that position, we can perhaps take another step.

As far as wasting one's time with this blog -- slothrop, you probably, no definitely!!!, take gold medals in at least three Moon of Alabama Olympic events: for historical longevity in frequenting this blog, inarticulacy, and fruitlessness in convincing argument. (Have you planted a seed of doubt in anyone?) Fat little Louie must perchance settle for the silver -- and no tantrums Louie, you know how mummy hates your little fits! And Onkel Karl won't let you review his new restaurant, Chez Brumaire, or his new film, "Remedial Marxism for Recalcitrant Bloggers," if you kick him in the shins again!

Posted by: Malooga | Jul 24 2014 5:02 utc | 76

Bravo, Malooga. It's good to see you around here, again!

Posted by: Copeland | Jul 24 2014 5:58 utc | 77

Posted by: chalo | Jul 24, 2014 12:17:33 AM | 75

As a civilian, when this type of war starts, you have to pack up and go. Woe to the elderly, the sick and the poor who cannot leave, or the people of Gaza who get killed on the borders.

Real people want peace. Any war party is bound to be unpopular. But the bulk of people are fleeing to Russia not to Western Ukraine.

The reason is simple - a passport for Russia but not for Europe. Opportunity to settle in Russia but not in Europe.

As is, Kyiv desperately needs this war. They have no other jobs.

In the meantime the US seems to have to cover up for the Kyiv government.
The Malaysian plane might have been shot down by a Ukrainian army defector, they say.

Russia is bound to have the same satellite photos as the US.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 24 2014 5:59 utc | 78

@somebody #78:

So the Ukrainian defector defected so recently that he didn't even have time to change out of his Ukie uniform (nor apparently did any of the soldiers around him), while the rebels right away placed him in charge of a relatively sophisticated surface-to-air missile system which the rebels have no need for?

This is getting sillier and sillier, and Parry's role as "gatekeeper" doesn't make it any easier to evaluate what he reports his intelligence sources tell him.

Really, the only thing journalists should be asking about at this point is why the communications between Ukie ATC and MH17 haven't been made public yet. Aside from that, no significant developments in this story are forthcoming for weeks.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 24 2014 6:21 utc | 79

Posted by: Demian | Jul 24, 2014 2:21:12 AM | 79

There is an alternative interpretation and it has some likelihood, too.

The rebels were tricked into shooting down the airliner and Russia did support the rebels with BUKs and personnel for a de facto no fly zone. And the US can prove it.

But because the US aim at a European cold and not hot war with Russia, as a matter of fact need Russia to be able to withdraw from Afghanistan, and really have a strategy of confronting China not consolidating a de facto Chinese Russian alliance, they fudge their intelligence but blackmail Russia keeping it on its toes with the threat of legal proceedings.

Lockerbie should have taught us that secret services blame who is convenient to blame.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 24 2014 6:52 utc | 80

@somebody #80:

You could be right, but

(1) From watching the rebels, I don't think a Buk system fits in with what they do. Yes, the rebels would like a no-fly zone, but what happens at altitudes of above 10km is really of no concern to them.

(2) In this whole affair, Russia has been very cautious. Therefore, even if it had provided the rebels with Buk systems, it would have kept them under adult supervision, and I hardly think it would have let them shoot at a target flying at 10,600 meters easily identified as a commercial airliner by civilian radar.

You are basically accusing the Russian government of gross incompetence and the rebels of being idiots, being "tricked" by the Ukies. Sorry, I don't find either of those two as plausible.

Russians, during the Soviet period, had a bad experience with shooting down a commercial airliner, so if they do supply the rebels with Buks (which I see no reason for them to do), they would have taken every precaution that commercial airliners do not get shot down. Caution has been the hallmark of RF policy toward Novorossia.

To be frank, I find your speculations to be insulting to me, as a Russian.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 24 2014 7:17 utc | 81

"Every American Ive talked with believes it was Putin, ..."

"WW3 in 72 days."

Posted by: Chip Nihk | Jul 23, 2014 5:29:09 PM | 61

Strange - every American I talked to says "it's our lying government again, but we got used to it and can't influence it anyway".

As for WW3, you wish. As any warmonger does.

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 24 2014 7:20 utc | 82

@ Cold: "Oh, okay, I get it. In that case, from the "physical evidence" I've reviewed, Russia did it and set the "federalists" up as Lee Harvey Oswald. Thanks for setting me straight. This is fun. No hard work necessary. Just go with your best guess based on the "evidence.""

Strange kind fo evidence you "reviewed" there. Would you please share, wioth all details? Because so far, we have yet to see any "evidence" besides the russian radar data which show a Ukrainian SU-25 there.

Needless to say, you reviewed some bullshit in a couple of blogs and nothing real at all. Wow, now that's sound research (and logic) allright.

"Why would Russia do it, you ask? Because they want to further destabilize Ukraine and this is a sure bet to further deepen the conflict."

This is a totally crazy conclusion, sorry. There is nothing to "destabilize" in a foreign-controlled nazi-coup burdened and occupied country, where genocide is even being loudly announced by the puppet politicians through official TV channels.

"Done. Next please. See how easy this is? What's not to like?"

What is "done" in your fantasy, besides that you said absolutely nothing of substance or even related to the actual topic?

You do know how to use a duictionary? Try googling "evidence", "fact", "witness", "proof" etc., might help. Oh, also "logic", "research" or "references/sources" would be a nice idea in your case. That is, unless you want to do a Marie-Harf-stunt and make yourself even more irrelevant in any serious discussion than you already are.

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 24 2014 7:31 utc | 83

Webster says:

": something which shows that something else exists or is true

: a visible sign of something

: material that is presented to a court of law to help find the truth about something
a : an outward sign : indication
b : something that furnishes proof : testimony; specifically : something legally submitted to a tribunal to ascertain the truth of a matter

: one who bears witness; especially : one who voluntarily confesses a crime and testifies for the prosecution against his accomplices

Please present us the "evidence" you "reviewed".

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 24 2014 7:35 utc | 84

"The Russians shot it down!" > "There were no Russians but Russian separatists shot it down with Russian assistance and equipment!" > "There was no Russian assistance but Russian separatists shot it down with Russian equipment!" > "There was no Russian equipment but Russian separatists shot it down with conquered Ukranian equipment!" > "A Ukranian 'defector' with experience of similar systems shot it down!" (See Read to the end) .

Will we see "A Ukranian unit shot it down but they were under orders!" > "A rogue Ukranian commander ordered the shot down!"? ... and so it goes

Posted by: Thumper | Jul 24 2014 8:28 utc | 85

Thumper, LOL most probably that's how it will go down :D

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 24 2014 9:09 utc | 86

Posted by: Demian | Jul 24, 2014 3:17:04 AM | 81

:-)) come on you challenged me now

You missed the story of Matthias Rust flying to Red Square?

Don't tell me this was only possible because of Soviet Times.

I think, the Russians for the first time copied Western techniques of fighting with deniable "private, ngo" forces. By definition, they are not "in control" and those forces have agendas (and PR, lobbying) of their own. And as this is run by secret service, the right hand might not know what the left hand is doing.

But I have been told for a long time now that Ukraine is deeply corrupt. So what the Ukraine army is doing or not doing would likely depend on who is paying.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 24 2014 10:25 utc | 87

@ somebody, your narrative gets quite nonsensical. We are not talking about some imported russians or even "proxies", we're talking about the eastern Ukrainians who are fighting for survival against a forcefully imposed, foreign-controlled nazi regime. Which openly said they want genocide of the ukrainian ethnic russians.

In your world, a local defending his house against NATO/nazi takeover is a "proxy" and comparable to blackwater/nazi thugs who are shelling their residences and killing their kids? That my friend revels a lot about your character. I pity you, sincerely.

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 24 2014 10:51 utc | 88

Malooga @ 76-

Interesting thoughts but you waste far too many well-phrased words dignifying the small Proyect. Chomsky and Slothrop (?) as well as Putin. You dignify the former and glorify the latter outsized to their relevance.

Marx is an immortally worthwhile subject, a man so far ahead of the field his thought has yet to be properly joined with enough people possessing the requisite courage and skill to bring about the triumph of a collective vision. Let a million Chavez's bloom around the globe and then mayne begin to see formation of an evolved social structure. For now we continue through this darker phase of human base greed, the obliteration of millions of lives and hopes. Might we build an optimistic thought of eventual re-emergence, a renaissance of the human spirit someday to outlast the brutality of this dark age?

Communism is the right system but unfortunately meant for a different blossoming of humans, not the wretches that we are. The people have failed communism not vice versa. Someday maybe the condition and circumstances will evolve to bring about an enlightenment. We can only hope this does not result from the aftermath of World War III.

Until then I am afraid we remain chained to this primitive social historical arrangement led by the wolf pack with our owners in the front.

Posted by: chalo | Jul 24 2014 11:26 utc | 89

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 24, 2014 6:51:21 AM | 88

How much control do the Eastern Ukrainians who are fighting have on the strategy and the politics of it? Last time I checked the leaders of Novorossija were Russians as in "from Russia". Not that I think it matters, the shrinking Soviet Union left a lot of identity issues. For Ukrainian politicians to solve these issues by military means can only be explained by corruption,they live next to Russia and know they cannot afford to go to war against her, so what do they think they are doing? But from the Russian side to "protect Russian speakers" opposed to human rights of everybody is nationalist chauvinist and a mirror of Western Ukrainian fascists. Basically the middle is taken out of this conflict (just as it was taken out in Syria) and this would be done in the interest of the dictators, autocrats and oligarchs of all sides. People just don't count in this type of conflict.

How likely is it that the citizens of a city confronted by the choice of surrender or having their city destroyed would not choose "surrender". I can tell you in medieval times they chose "surrender". And the type of fight that is done in Ukraine (and was done in Syria) is medieval - encircling cities, destroying the infrastructure and shelling. It is completely immoral from all sides. The world used to be much further fighting it out on open fields.
I hear, there is no water in Donetsk now. This is all beyond the Geneva convention.

Anyway (part) of the tape of the rebel commander commenting on the BUK is out now, very suspiciously it is cut, so we have to wait for the complete take. He is very clear though that the Ukrainian government was warned about the BUK so should have stopped civilian flights.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 24 2014 11:28 utc | 90

Somebody @ 80 and 87 -

I do believe that you are closest among many in depicting honest situation of Ukraine and Russia within these two comments. Thank you for standing down so much shallow thinking to make these statements.

Posted by: chalo | Jul 24 2014 11:35 utc | 91

Ans also now I see @ 90....very good, Somebody

Posted by: chalo | Jul 24 2014 11:46 utc | 92


So much sudden emotions from you, as someone else said, this is war, you believe the people in east just going to lay down while the ukraine junta bomb them and their villages?

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 24 2014 12:08 utc | 93

I think my comment which I postet in the Arnold thread should better have gone here. Thus a link to that comment - Nato maneuvers and cyber warfare in Ukraine?

Posted by: Fran | Jul 24 2014 12:21 utc | 94

From Saker watch this CNN Pressstitute

“Peter Lavelle vs a typical CNN Presstitute

We have already seen Mark Sleboda vs a typical BBC Presstitute, today I bring you Peter Lavelle vs a typical CNN Presstitute. I have to admit that I have been loathing the Ziomedia for many years and it has been close to 20 years since I tossed away my TV, stopped reading the papers, stopped listening to Neocon Public Radio and basically fully switched to the Internet for news and entertainment. I never regretted this decision and I still think that this is *the* necessary and unavoidable first step towards personal liberation from system of mind control the plutocrats have imposed everywhere they had a chance to.

I sincerely admire both Mark Sleboda and Peter Lavelle for their courage to try to get at least a tiny little bit of truth across in their interviews, but I have to say that I also think that their efforts are futile. I think that the zombies who watch the Idiot Tube in 2014 are simply beyond hope, they have lost any capability to think, reason, analyze, or question. As Roger Waters put it so well: “But it was only a fantasy, The wall was too high as you can see, No matter how he tried he could not break free, And the worms ate into his brain”. We might as well call them Cerebrum Numbing Network. See for yourself in the video below.”

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 24 2014 12:30 utc | 95

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 24, 2014 8:08:23 AM | 93

Do you think their houses would get destroyed if fighters were not hiding in the city? Can you call this "protecting Russian speakers" with a straight face? For the other side, what exactly are Ukrainian soldiers fighting for? Do they know? Do the "pro Russians, separatists" know?

War does not protect anybody.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 24 2014 13:37 utc | 96


You ask me why ukraine have terror bombed east for 3 months now? You defend ukraine army in bombing of civilians? Is that what you are saying?
You ask me why the east rise up against the junta? Really somebody, is that what you are asking?

Are you one of those that believe that palestinians are terrorists hiding in wardrobes in hospitals?

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 24 2014 14:01 utc | 97

The NATO Black Sea naval exercise BREEZE 2014, although originally scheduled to end Sunday July 13 according to U.S. military press releases, in fact ostensibly ended on Thursday July 16, according to this Voice of America report: NATO Black Sea War Games End. MH17 was shot down the morning of Friday July 17. I very much doubt if the ships invlved in the exercise had already left the Black Sea at that point.

Posted by: lysias | Jul 24 2014 14:24 utc | 98

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 24, 2014 10:01:42 AM | 97

I am saying that there are people who profit from these conflicts but they are not the people who are fighting them.

Borodai gave an interview to the BBC

Q: "What about the Russian state?"

A: "We are getting support from the whole Russian people. Volunteers are joining us. In fact, I am part of that help from the Russian people. Help for the Donbas [ie the Donets Basin] from the Russian people. Let me remind you, I myself am from Moscow. I am Russian. A citizen of Russia, and a resident of the city of Moscow. I am not from the Donbas, not at all. I came here as a volunteer. It just so happened that, instead of sitting in a trench with a rifle or a machine-gun, I'm now in the prime minister's chair. Well… that's fate."

Q: "Are you now or have you ever been a member of the FSB [Federal Security Service] or other Russian intelligence agencies?"

A: "No I am not now nor have I been."

Q: "Never?"

A: "No."

Q: "Have you had contacts with representative of such organisations?"

A: "Of course I have many acquaintances in the security services. I am a professional political scientist. I know many politicians, many businessmen, and of course people who work for the security services."

Q: "How often are you in contact with them?"

A: "It varies. You know."

Q: "When was the last time?"

A: "I have one very good acquaintance who is a member of the security services, albeit an ex-member. That is Colonel Strelkov - also a Muscovite by the way - who is the defence minister of the Donetsk People's Republic. He's a former security service agent and my good acquaintance. He was my good friend even when he was a serving member of the security services. We have known each other for 20 years at least. So what?"

Q: "So when people say you have links to the FSB, that's true?"

A: "As anyone would have, who has dealings with the elite of society. Because the elite, in Russia as in any other society, includes representatives from business as well as representatives from different branches of the state."

Posted by: somebody | Jul 24 2014 14:30 utc | 99

Airliners now rely on GPS for navigating, so meaconing would be much less effective. But I would be very much surprised if the NSA were not also capable of doctoring the GPS signals that airliners get.

Posted by: lysias | Jul 24 2014 14:37 utc | 100

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