Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 23, 2014

No Evidence - Administration's MH17 Case Against Russia Falls Apart

The federalists fighting in east Ukraine just took down two more SU-25 ground attack fighters that were bombing their positions. The weapons used against these planes are either simple air-defense guns or short ranged missiles unlike the missiles that allegedly took down the Malaysian passenger jet.

The case the Obama administration made against the federalists and Russia in connection with that MH-17 flight is completely falling apart.

Even the aggressive State Department spokesperson has to admit (vid) there is no real evidence at all. The "mountain of evidence" Secretary of State Kerry talked about is nothing but doctored photos and sound files provided by the Ukrainian coup government. One photo, for example, is supposed to show a missile system in federalists hands in a town in east Ukraine. But two reporters asking locals there can not find anyone who has seen the bulky and loud system. The photo is therefore likely a montage.

After being public criticized for showing no real evidence the Obama administration trotted out some "senior intelligence officials" who then admitted that they have nothing, NOTHING, to connect the case to Russia and only vague circumstantial "social media evidence" that federalists COULD have downed the jet:

But the officials said they did not know who fired the missile or whether any Russian operatives were present at the missile launch. They were not certain that the missile crew was trained in Russia, although they described a stepped-up campaign in recent weeks by Russia to arm and train the rebels, which they say has continued even after the downing of the commercial jetliner.

In terms of who fired the missile, "we don't know a name, we don't know a rank and we're not even 100 percent sure of a nationality," one official said, adding at another point, "There is not going to be a Perry Mason moment here," a referenc to a fictional detective who solved mysteries.

Most damning for the case may be this:

The senior intelligence officials said spy agencies were not aware that an SA-11 system was in eastern Ukraine until the attack had happened.

So the alleged transfer of such a big weapon system from Russia was either not observable for the multi-billion dollar, all seeing, all hearing U.S. intelligence or it never happened. Case closed.

But the neolibcons in the Obama administration do not despair yet. The murky Ukrainian company that hired Vice President Biden's son is now paying more lobbyists in Washington. The bribes will flow in bigger amounts. The lies from the Obama administration, and especially from Kerry, will continue as its tries everything possible to restart a Cold War against Russia or, if possible, even a hot one.

Let the Europeans bleed. As long as the U.S. is safe everything is hunky dory.

Posted by b on July 23, 2014 at 12:28 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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somebody

Again, people in east fighting for their own interests again belive it or not, these poeople like palestinians dont want to be killed.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 24 2014 14:42 utc | 101

malooga. Throw on Another Green World and misread wallerstein. Again.

What's up w/ you knuckleheads and Proyect? Did he shit on the kitchen table? I don't get it.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 24 2014 14:47 utc | 102

BREAKING: Yatzniuk (or whatever his name is) is stepping down as a PM.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 24 2014 15:09 utc | 103

@ somebody, your narrative gets quite nonsensical.

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 24, 2014 6:51:21 AM | 88

It always does . . .

Posted by: Tor | Jul 24 2014 15:49 utc | 104

I am saying that there are people who profit from these conflicts but they are not the people who are fighting them.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 24, 2014 10:30:17 AM | 99

Wow . . that's like, awesomely deep, dude

You should become a guru, or something

Posted by: Tor | Jul 24 2014 15:52 utc | 105

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 24, 2014 10:42:19 AM | 101

Again, people in east fighting for their own interests again belive it or not

no, as their interests are the same as the interests of people in the rest of Ukraine, which is peace and a viable economy.
Whoever made them fight each other forced them to fight against their interest.


these poeople like palestinians dont want to be killed

that is my point. if you fight you are likely to get killed.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 24 2014 16:08 utc | 106

somebody

Well I mean I just state facts, if you want live in your emotional world go ahead but thats not how the world works.
Thats east is paid off by Russia as you imply is a disgrace to the thousands of affected and killed by the regime in kiev.

I never hope you get jumped at in the street, after all we all know you wouldnt fight back.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 24 2014 16:42 utc | 107

Posted by: Tor | Jul 24, 2014 11:52:56 AM | 105

Let's face it there is a lot of war propaganda around here, which is the vilest sort of propaganda.

Some wars may be solved simply for lack of finances.

Ukrainian govt has no cash for army salaries from Aug 1 - finance minister

Do you think the EU or the US will step in to finance the Ukrainian army, now?

Posted by: somebody | Jul 24 2014 16:47 utc | 108

Will junta break down now when yatziuk leave?

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 24 2014 16:52 utc | 109

Excellent piece at Club Orlov:

"...Did the rebels have the means to shoot down the plane? They have no military aviation and no functioning airport (the one near Donetsk is out of commission and occupied by Ukrainian troops). They have shoulder-fired missiles, which can take out helicopters and planes flying at low altitude, but are useless against airliners flying at cruising altitude. They also have a “Buk” air defense unit (one truck's worth of it) which they took from the Ukrainians as a trophy, but it's said to be non-operational. A rocket from this unit could have shot down MH-17, but only if it were integrated with a radar system, which the rebels did not have.

"Did the Ukrainians have the means? They had five “Buk” units active in the area on that day, integrated with a radar system which was also active that day. (Deploying an air defense system against an enemy that does not have any aviation seems a bit strange.) According to a report from a Spanish air traffic controller who was working in Kiev (and has since been dismissed, along with other foreign ATCs) MH-17 was followed by two SU-25 jet fighters. According to a Russian expert on “Buk” systems, the damage to the fuselage visible on photographs of the crash site could not have been from a “Buk” surface-to-air missile, but could have been caused by an air-to-air missile fired by a SU-25. ..."
http://cluborlov.blogspot.ca/2014/07/fact-free-zone.html#more

Posted by: bevin | Jul 24 2014 17:00 utc | 110

malooga @76

"Simply put, the past twenty five years have convinced us that a multi-polar world (with multiple "Development Banks" and multiple fungible currencies, and law written by multiple centers of power) could not possibly be worse than the "Washington Consensus" that has reigned since the fall of the Soviet Union."

Why this is so hard for the likes of Proyect (and Tony Blair) to understand is a mystery.

It is, after all, precisely the same logic that led to most of the left-and all of the rank and file on the left- to join the war against the last proto-hegemon Hitler.
They realised, as we realise today, that there is, very likely, a big difference between attempting to make revolutionary change in a world in which the ruling class is split into competing blocs and states and one in which one global hegemon, with the ability to track our every movement and to monitor our lives from cradle to grave, rules.

The primary logic behind anti-imperialism in this era is to prevent the emergence of an all compassing global ruling class and a supranational state authority.

Of course not all the left did fight Hitler, some took the road of revolutionary defeatism which, at the time, could be defended. But out of this school emerged, inter alia, that section of the "left" to which Proyect and his friends belong- the faction which refused to defend the heroic, genuine and long buried revolution in Korea, looking above the sordid triviality of a people fighting for freedom in a land which had not passed through the stages of development, so central in the Menshevik mind, and saw only a struggle between competing powers, one of which, the most questionable politically, paid their salaries. Or, at least, had the power to put an end to them.

"You guys are free to stand on the sidelines and jeer because the solution is not "leftist" enough or Marxist enough, and not completely just (which no one argues that it is.)"
Isn't that what the Cliffites did and do yet?

Posted by: bevin | Jul 24 2014 17:24 utc | 111

Anybody hear about the guy who drowned in a bowl of musli? He was dragged under by a nasty current...

Posted by: Dan | Jul 24 2014 17:39 utc | 112

@slothrop:

Commentary No. 381, July 15, 2014 "Germany and the United States: Unprecedented Breach"
by Immanuel Wallerstein


...The op-ed in the Los Angeles Times, written by Jacob Heilbrun, was entitled "The German-American Breakup." The word "breakup" is unequivocal, or almost. After an overview of various German commentaries, Heilbrun ends with this admonition:

"If Obama is unable to rein in spying of Germany, he may discover that he is helping to convert it from an ally into an adversary. For Obama to say Auf Wiedersehen to a longtime ally would deliver a blow to American national security that no amount of secret information could possibly justify."

If Heilbrun seems to have little hope that his viewpoint will be heard in Washington, it pales before the lead article in Der Spiegel on the same date. The long article is entitled "Germany's Choice: Will It Be America or Russia?" One section of the article is entitled "The Last Straw." It cites not someone on the left or someone who has long advocated closer relations with Russia. It cites instead a conservative advocate of the free economy and of rocksolid relations with the United States, who chairs an organization called Atlantic Bridge. In a tone of desperation, he says: "If [the latest allegations about spying] turn out to be true, it's time for this to stop." Note that the article says it's time for it to stop, not that it's time for further discussions or negotiations about it. Just stop.

One last poignant detail: The U.S. ambassador to Germany speaks no German. The Russia ambassador is so fluent one scarcely notices his accent. Entrance to the U.S. Ambassador's office is protected by the highest-level security possible, surpassing that which governs the entrance to the White House's Oval Office. Entrance to the Russian embassy is so casual that it prompts disbelief.

...However, the problem is structural and not the passing mistakes and stupidity of those in power in the United States.

The basic problem is that the United States is, and has been for some time, in geopolitical decline. It doesn't like this. It doesn't really accept this. It surely doesn't know how to handle it, that is, minimize the losses to the United States. So it keeps trying to restore what is unrestorable - U.S. "leadership" (read: hegemony) in the world-system. This makes the United States a very dangerous actor...

That is what Europeans in general, and now Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany in particular, are realizing. The United States has become a very unreliable "partner." So even those in Germany and elsewhere in Europe who are nostalgic for the warm embrace of the "free world" are reluctantly joining the less nostalgic others in deciding how they can survive geopolitically without the United States. And this is pushing them into the logical alternative, a European tent that includes Russia.

As the Germans, and the Europeans in general, move inexorably in this direction, they have their hesitations. If they can no longer trust the United States, could they really trust Russia? And, more importantly, could they make a deal with the Russians that the Russians would find it worthwhile and necessary to observe? You can bet that this is what is being discussed in the inner circles of the German government today, and not how to repair the irreparable breach of trust with the United States.

*****

As far as Proyect goes, no one cares that he shits on his own kitchen table, but these days too few people visit his house to admire and comment upon his handiwork. So he goes from house to house (Swans-MOA, etc.) and shits on their kitchen tables. When they are less than enthralled with his handiwork, he takes to going about in disguise to gain entrance, although his explosive behavior soon gives him away.

People know he eats out a lot, but his actions -- horrific and asocial as they are -- reveal a lot about him: He believes his creations (or works of art as he call them -- although others refer to them as excreta) are preferable to other’s kitchen tables and angrily defends them. When others clean their kitchen tables, he comes in stealthily at night to make what he laughingly terms “night deposits." He has no ability to handle corn, in any form, as his digestion leaves him in eternal bad humor. And the stench is militantly inhumane, although he claims that to his nostrils it smells like a daisy in the barrel of a gun at a spring morning protest.

*****

Look slothrop, in relation to World Systems Theory (WST), hegemonic actions in Libya and Syria, by their indisguisable violence, destructiveness and utter hypocrisy, split the left into two camps: those who are cognizant and critical of the work of hegemony, and those that deny that hegemonic behavior even exists, preferring to interpret such actions in altruistic terms: r2p, etc. I would term those the apologetic left (also critiqued as Liberal, or even radical leftist Imperialism, the “Left Man’s Burden”), and put you, Proyect, Amy Goodman, Code Pink, more recent Chomsky, etc. into that camp. (Hang on here, I will return to this. Obviously, there is a spectrum of beliefs, and this precis a simplification for the purpose of explication.) In any event, the sentiments between the two left camps are vitriolic and at this point unbridgeable.

The so-called “Arab Spring,” as it was marketed and promoted by, for instance, both the US State Department and Democracy Now, and the interpretation of those events and their later consequences, was a particularly schismatic and disabling event for the left, and along with the introduction of Obama, I believe, planned to be so -- and particularly traumatic for me personally, leading to much introspection, research, and loss of old friendships.

The former left camp, in alliance with the ur-right (or idealistic right), has done much work in recent years in revealing the work of the “Deep" or undemocratic state: dark events like false flags, mind control, systemic bribery of elites, ignorant mercenary armies who literally do not know who they are fighting against or what they are fighting for, etc., and on the other side, “light” events like the ever more intelligent co-optation of dissent through “hip" social media. The latter camp is largely in denial of such work, preferring to read all events at face or surface value.

Recent work by Nader and others point to a possible alliance on a number of points of commonality between the critical left and the ur-right, as does the flow of commentary on this and other blogs. Yes, Nader has unequivocably never rejected Captalism, and the ur-right idealizes the “Free Market,” but both are equally disgusted by the increasing concentration of power, wealth, corruption and hypocrisy at the top and the increasing destruction of the foundation upon which this unholy pyramid is built. (I, for one, as a self identified radical leftist, would feel more comfortable living in a country governed by “rightist” Paul Craig Roberts, than by “leftist” Barak Obama.)

Yes, solutions being considered are more functional than ideological in nature, but, by its very nature, this is a big tent dialogue, and communists, socialists, anarchists, primitivists, Schumacherites, right sizists, distributists, mutualists, etc. would only profit from discarding their paranoia and feelings of superiority, inferiority, and exclusivity, and peaking their heads inside and contributing to the discourse. I believe that the emphasis is on ad-hoc practicality in a time of crisis, and small achievable steps rather than grand theoretical constructs. Long term planning will flow from the vision of achievable steps, rather than the other way around, which has failed in the past generation to produce results.

This functional approach of skirting ideological reefs in looking for solutions, might be termed a “fifth way,” in contra-distinction to Dugin’s spooky mystical/identity structure of a “fourth way.”

Returning to the point above, “Politics” -- that is to say, who gets what, and how and why -- as the term is currently used, conceals more than reveals. You and I may be very close in the way we ideally wish the world to be, but we differ greatly in how we interpret current events, and what the opportunitities for productive action currently are. Much more can be said about this, indeed a book could be written, teasing out the different strands of meaning, interpretation and possibilities for action that hide beneath the umbrella term, “politics,” -- I have put much thought into this area over the past few years -- but I will leave it here for now.

WST is a framework for understanding human civilizational development. Are all relations between core and periphery immutable? Is WST merely a mechanistic model to be passively observed as the Empire founders, or is there space for constructive human intervention? Must all relations be one-sided and extractive in nature, or is mutally beneficial exchange possible? What role do human social values, such as fairness, and explicit or implicit social contracts play in political organization? What lessons do the actions of the former Soviet Union, of Cuba, Venezuela, of ALBA, of the BRICS, of new investment models, have to teach us? Wallerstein, in particular, has been sympathetic to the rights of indigenous peoples, as has John Perkins, by the way. Their struggles are almost at right angles with struggles over centers of power. Certainly, the case of India, for instance, and the critical work of Arundhati Roy and Vandana Shiva, among others, points very clearly to the limitations of the BRICS model for human poly-cultural survival, and these dangers are not to be minimized. Like Wallerstein, I , certainly, am not naively optimistic (in actuality I am as darkly pessimistic of the human future as Ivan Illich), but a productive dialogue along these lines could be developed.

*****

Question: Do people fight for freedom, or against extreme oppression? There is a balance between freedom and responsibility, which for ideological purposes the West rarely acknowleges.

*****

Eno is good, especially in calming the dyspepsia that considerations of Proyect bring on, but the last several weeks I have been getting in touch with my inner Ramones, and remembering the summer days of past when I lived across the street from their loft on 2nd St. between 2nd Ave. and the Bowery, the back of CBGB’s visible behind the parking lot and the row of almost oriental-looking ineradicable ailanthus trees -- sadly all gone now, devoured by the neo-liberal leviathan, NYU. Hearing them rehearse, dressing in all black, after-hour dinners at the Kiev... Who could have imagined that I would one day think back wistfully to my hopeless attempts of duct taping pillows to my windows on those rare nights when I had to get to sleep before 4 AM.

Posted by: Malooga | Jul 24 2014 18:49 utc | 113

New PM "elected": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volodymyr_Groysman

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 24 2014 19:29 utc | 114

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 24, 2014 3:29:53 PM | 114

He is obviously Poroshenko's guy - former mayor of a town owned by Roshen.

The following is Dutch and the headline translates as

Passenger planes were in fact human shields for Kyiv

This here is Elsevier - a Dutch magazine with a great tradition - not fringe

The EU now has to decide if they want to cooperate with war criminals.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 24 2014 19:48 utc | 115

Mirabile dictu! Malooga. I disagree with nothing in the article. I especially agree with this: "However, the problem is structural and not the passing mistakes and stupidity of those in power in the United States."

"Structural." This is rather the control thesis of dependency theory/world-systems: there is no political center, only the dynamic organization of society by the logic of capitalist accumulation.

Whatever decisions are made in Kiev, London, Bonn, Washington, Moscow, are bounded by the structural constraints of this irregular expansion.The linkages in the world economy are much stronger than the empty pursuit of "Empire" – Wallerstein, so far as I can remember, always emphasizes that the global economy is completely incompatible with political domination– The rising dominance of FIRE
in the ostensible "core" is the only Form of global mediation intended to defend & expand The interests of an international capitalist class who could care less about the sanctity of the modern state.

b is a loon.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 24 2014 20:03 utc | 116

somebody

Great find although where does that info comes from (about shielding)?

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 24 2014 20:08 utc | 117

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 24, 2014 4:08:20 PM | 117

Logical deduction. Run the article through Google Translate. Dutch translates easily into German or English

This here is the gist

The third reason is of a military nature. If there is no passenger aircraft to fly in the area, the rebels know that everything that passes is military. They can unhesitatingly shoot at anything. Kiev did not want to give this strategic advantage to the separatists.

Since July 14, the Ukrainian services knew that the rebels possessed Buk missile systems that can shoot up to 24 km altitude. Yet the airspace was closed, but to a height of only 10 kilometers. The consequences of this decision are known.

This now out in Dutch media, the government of the Netherlands has to get an answer from the Ukrainian government. After the huge emotion shown by Dutch politicians after the downing of the airliner, they cannot let the Kyiv government get away with it.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 24 2014 20:21 utc | 118

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 24, 2014 4:03:56 PM | 116

You are neglecting the human factor in your analysis.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 24 2014 20:27 utc | 119

somebody

Yes interesting, you have watched the video by the rebel girl making this claim back in june right?

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 24 2014 20:41 utc | 120

"Human factor"

Wallerstein, Frank, Amin, Arrighiri, are structuralist Marxists, crudely speaking. People are forced to do things they don't want to do in order to maintain accumulation in the global economy.

So, even very powerful people are tethered to this system. The rest of us are diminishing sources of labor power needed to create surplus value. This is a real crisis, and could be included in the analysis of the present Ukrainian conflict.

b has a master hypothesis about American "empire" that amusingly traps him in continuous contradiction of his thesis. Fortunately, RT , and some long-tail outlier content props up the creaking shithouse.

Also, a German who finds relief in the survival of tyrants who supposedly oppose the US, is a little creepy.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 24 2014 20:51 utc | 121

well, slothrop is barely human, so that figures

thank you for your reflections malooga & bevin

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jul 24 2014 23:06 utc | 122

Russian report:
American intelligence officers refused to falsify information about the downed MH17

I did not here everything that, referring to American sources, Iosif Diskin said in the program "Policy" on the First channel. But his information is very important. So I want to repeat it, because the more clearly he told me everything before transmission. So, according to American sources:

1. The operation of the downed over the Donbass Malaysian Boeing 777 was not developed in Ukraine, but was implemented through a chain of representatives of the current Ukrainian authorities.

2. Everything was done in secret from Peter Poroshenko, so that he: 1). Not stop it; 2). Be so sincerely indignant when he was told that the Russians have shot down a passenger Boeing.

3. The operation succeeded only in part: the downing of the Boeing, but everything else has failed.

4. The U.S. state Department reported that in a day, the U.S. intelligence will produce all the evidence.

5. A day later, nothing has happened as of a particular people from American intelligence refused to falsify the facts and had a question: and if everything turns out that who will be responsible? A clear answer to your question, they have not received. And then refused. Also, in the fall the US Congressional elections will be held, and the intelligence officers were afraid that the Republicans, hitting at the Democrats, accuse the intelligent agencies not that they concealed the truth about who downed passenger aircraft (nobody cares), but that they had "misled the top leadership of the USA and thus caused damage to the national interests of America." And like in the US you can not only post to lose. There's not a joke, again caught.

6. So there was information from three anonymous representatives of the U.S. intelligence: the evidence against Russia.

7. If Petro Poroshenko (to autumn he will receive cover from the Americans) doesn't conquer the South-East, the Americans will reveal, shouldering responsibility for downed Boeing at him. According to Diskin, "it may in the Hague to send him".

Posted by: Demian | Jul 24 2014 23:45 utc | 123

Demian, can you give a rough translation of number 5 in your own words? I can't decipher the meaning.

Posted by: yellowsnapdragon | Jul 25 2014 0:07 utc | 124

@somebody #106:

their interests are the same as the interests of people in the rest of Ukraine, which is peace and a viable economy.

Making compromises with unapologetic racist fascists, which you are vehemently advocating, is what made the Third Reich possible in the first place. You of all people should know that.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 25 2014 0:14 utc | 125

@yellowsnapdragon #124:

OK, here is my "handmade" translation. I tried to improve on the Yandex translation before.

5. After twenty-four hours, nothing of the kind happened, because the relevant people in the American intelligence community refused to falsify facts, having posed the question: but if everything comes out, who will be held responsible [for the CIA's falsification of data]? They did not get a clear answer to this question. It is then that they refused. They were led to this decision all the more by the fact that Congressional elections will be held in the fall, and the intelligence officers feared that Republicans, going after Democrats, would accuse intelligence services not of hiding the truth about who downed the jet (that is of concern to no one), but that they "had misled the highest officials of the USG and by that very deed damaged the national interests of America". And for this sort of thing, in the USA, you can not just lose your job. They don't kid around, once you're caught.

This account is consistent with the impression one got of what was going on in the US intelligence community from Robert Parry's reports. As you may recall, some of his intelligence sources told him that it looked like the Ukes had launched the missile. (Of course, "somebody" knows better.)

Posted by: Demian | Jul 25 2014 0:33 utc | 126

herr (s)Lothrop Stoddard

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Jul 25 2014 2:00 utc | 127

"...Wallerstein, Frank, Amin, Arrighiri, are structuralist Marxists, crudely speaking. People are forced to do things they don't want to do in order to maintain accumulation in the global economy.

"So, even very powerful people are tethered to this system. The rest of us are diminishing sources of labor power needed to create surplus value. This is a real crisis, and could be included in the analysis of the present Ukrainian conflict..."

So here we are again, bowing in awe before, his ineffable majesty, the god of Nature, invisible hand and all. Slothrop is one of those who cannot believe that man makes his own history, a Menshevik, infected by the disease of Victorian positivism.

Man makes his own history. And, if he does not, the evolution of international trade will not make it on his behalf.

The system has no trajectory, it will not die unless it is killed, there is no end to the horrific forms that the greed and enslavement which is capitalism could take if it is not euthanised.

History is not a spectacle, any more than the lives of the poor are an amusement, or massacres in the middle east a passing detail.

The last time that Slothrop appeared here to sneer at b and the locals, it was to sketch for us the, laughable, notion that b had a portrait of Eric Honecker in his study.

Slothrop regards it as axiomatic that the GDR was not just a bad regime but clearly worse than the one which waged wars in Korea and Vietnam and treated Africa, Latin America and Asia like plantations on the Mississippi. He suggests that b must be a secret admirer of Honecker, perhaps even drive a Brabant!

The reality is that Slothrop and his ilk are quite reconciled to Harry Truman and look back fondly at Eisenhower, probably cast their first votes for LBJ and their most recent ones for Obama. And are, even now, thinking about Bernie Sanders (Democratic Socialist!!) or Elizabeth Warren. And none of the above is fit, despite all his failings and all the faults of his governments, to lick Eric Honecker's arse.

Why? Because the GDR poured vast and very scarce resources into rebuilding the ruins of North Korea, diverting assistance, of all kinds to national liberation movements, to the likes of Che Guevara and (the never forgotten) General Giap, peasant pedant soldier and victor over the Empire.

b, according to Slothrop is a loon, because he bothers.

Slothrop has more sense- he doesn't give a fuck. It's all one when History is God and we and our consciences and our preferences are so much chaff in the wind.

Slothrop wouldn't bother, (he rarely visits the site, he has more important matters to attend to, papers to mark, students to impress, names to drop, cheques to cash, genitals to play with...) but he will not stand idly by and witness, in effect, a celebration of the soviet policies of opposing imperialism with suspect, nay, impure motives. That is to ask too much of his patience. So he visits us, like a missionary picking his way through a crowd of naked cannibals, and his message is that the Universe is unfolding, just as Karl, Kautsky that is, prophesied.

If Marx returned to earth, for a day, the thing that would puzzle him most would be the number of otherwise intelligent people who, despite his injunctions to criticise received ideas and study unfolding empirical reality, insist upon the validity of guesses that he made-such as those to do with falling rates of profit and the accumulation of capital-that have long since been exploded as irrelevant.

If he stayed a day longer, he would realise what a wonderful excuse dogmatism had become for inaction and indifference.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 25 2014 2:07 utc | 128

Demian, thanks. It was the last bit about the election that was unclear. So US intel agents weren't worried about the fabrication of evidence itself. No, they were afraid they would lose their jobs because they mislead one faction of powerful electeds at the request of another. Wow. Great info.

Posted by: yellowsnapdragon | Jul 25 2014 2:18 utc | 129

bevin, that is living scholarship

herr stoddart - represents what is dead in thinking, that is normal - often there is this moment if front of the terrible facts - the terrible facts on which b constructed the blog - those facts have only got more horrific but for s, they don't exist, don't matter, they are nothing, they interrupt whatever he thinks that he thinks is his method

if he was not such a smartarse i wonder what things he could tell but i think that part is long dead

living scholarship actually helps yo live with hysteria that surrounds us

Posted by: remembereriingiap | Jul 25 2014 2:40 utc | 130

@yellowsnapdragon #129:

Well, I got that from a Web site that I ran into because it publishes pieces by Dugin. It's basically either a guy in a Russian think tank or in some government commission who reports what was reported on Russia's main news channel, "the First Channel". This Russian reporter claims to have "American sources".Of course, those could really be Russian counterintelligence sources who, one way or another, have some insights into what goes on inside American intelligence.

So one needs to take this with a grain of salt (why is not even a Western blogger reporting this, as far as I know?), but I believe it, because (1) of what Robert Parry reported; (2) I had earlier said, based on a post by the Saker, that both Russian and US intelligence know who really shot the plane down, which means that if US intelligence publicly lied, Russian intelligence would be able to catch them in the lie; (3) American spies have a reputation for trying to cover their buts (this may just be based on movies for all I know, but it rings true).

In other words, we have no way of knowing whether that report is based on anything more than guesswork, but it rings true to me.

Actually, i just recalled that that piece mentions something I didn't know, but wondered about a little: that Poroshenko was kept out of the loop. I find that believable. But whether it's true or not, I think it's more likely that the reporter got that information from his contacts in Russian intelligence than from his "American sources".

Posted by: Demian | Jul 25 2014 2:46 utc | 131

Demian @131,

Yeah, I have little doubt that both US and Russian intel know what happened, and I'm convinced the Russian intel was good because the US didn't acknowledge it at all in real time. Instead, the US immediately walked back the evil Russia meme after the Russian presser. Judging by what the US does rather than what they say, the US seemed to concede the validity of the Russian evidence. The Perry piece also suggests some discomfort by US intel since the point of his story is that the US intel could indicate the opposite of what the O admin claims. IOW, US intel may show Ukies firing the BUK. That supports the credibility of this info.

I'm filing this new info as very possibly credible.

Posted by: yellowsnapdragon | Jul 25 2014 6:03 utc | 132

I just can't stop laughing about even the idea that the rebels could have fired the rocket. That is technically utterly impossible - it requires a workign flight control, at least two long.-range radar stations working in unison for tracking and a full chain of command with back reporting, live directions and all - because otherwise it can not work. It is indeed as simple as that.

Nowadays with more modern systems it can be faster and more autonomus, but those BUK systems are ancient tech and reqire the whole lot.

Of course, before you deploy ANY of these weapons, you will have a batallion or a brigade swarm out in the area for protection (depending on size of the weapon system and infrastructure to be protected), because these systems are of course the preferred target for any bomber plane or ground-ground rocket system.

So if anyone ever tells you that even the *possibility* exists that the "rebels" did it, just slap him in the face, HARD - you can be 100% sure it's a liar or a dumbass.

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 25 2014 6:42 utc | 133

@yellowsnapdragon #132:

I had noticed that one of the top US national security bloggers, emptywheel, had not made any posts about this. Now she has, but it is pathetic.

I’ve been so buried in Netroots Nation and related issues I’ve only followed the top-line coverage of the MH17 shoot-down. I think the version the Administration released yesterday — that Ukrainian rebels shot down the airliner by mistake — is the most plausible explanation, though I’m aware of questions about that story.

All that said, there’s something about yesterday’s dog-and-pony show offered at the Office of Director of National Intelligence that seriously discredits the US story. …

I suspect at this point both sides are hiding interesting details they know. But the US has the more plausible case, thus far. So why are they unwilling to present their case publicly?

Major fail. Either emptywheel is a Russophobe (like our "somebody"), or she has a significantly blindly nationalistic side. The US/Ukie side of the story was always obviously nothing but lies created to discredit Russia/the freedom fighters, whereas the Russian side never said anything that did not make perfect sense. So emptywheel should stick to writing about matters she knows something about.

Sibel Edmunds' Boiling Frogs Post appears to be ignoring MH17, which is better than writing highly naive remarks about it.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 25 2014 6:43 utc | 134

Posted by: Demian | Jul 24, 2014 8:14:29 PM | 125

You got your dates wrong. The Third Reich was the outcome of a 14 year civil war. Making compromises with fascists is the foundation of the Federal Republic of Germany of 1949 - and of the GDR where some people had a clean cv of 1933 membership of NSDAP, 1946 membership of SED.

Posted by: somebody | Jul 25 2014 6:46 utc | 135

@somebody #135:

So the German political establishment letting Hitler become Chancellor, and the Reichstag voting for the Ermächtigungsgesetz, were not compromises made with fascists?

The main fascist aspect of the FRG is that it continues to be a member of NATO.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 25 2014 7:01 utc | 136

@ Demian, say it correctly. it was National-Socialists and they only won thanks to the treachury of the Social Democrats and in the end thanks to the Catholic shill party Zentrum.

It's all just social, socialists, socializing in social clubs, traitors and killers as always. The rest is just smokes and mirrors. There never was a real left in Germany after the WW2.

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 25 2014 7:12 utc | 137

... either, is what I want to say. Todays "left" party is just NATO-EU controlled opposition and united as a pan-european left with a seat in Brussels.

Posted by: T2015 | Jul 25 2014 7:13 utc | 138

Russian news report, referring to unnamed Ukrainian officer, that the Boeing was shot by 156th SAM regiment, launch happened from the village of Zaroshino. No proof beyond "he said" is given, but the details are unusually specific

http://russian.rt.com/article/42405 (in Russian)

17th of July the commander of 156th SAM regiment received orders to perform a training. They were to deploy the batteries, track training targets and emulate their destruction with a Buk-M1 rocket.

The battery commanders received launch keys, but no real launches were in the plan.

As part of training, two Su-25 jets from Kulbakino base were moved to Dnepropetrovsk. Their task was to perform air recon and mark targets to the west of Donetsk.

After one aircraft entered Buk range, it was being tracked by Buk team near Zaroshenskoe village. Apparently, due to tragic accident, at some point trajectories of Boeing and Su-25 on Radar merged. After they diverged, radar automatically continued to track larger target.

According to source, he does not know why an authorized launch happened. "This is investigated by SBU people, who at about 9:30 took away the battery commander and his team"

Posted by: Andrey Subbotin | Jul 25 2014 8:02 utc | 139

Russian media report how ukraine have once again shot inside Russia and according to some sources hurt atleast 1 woman.
ukraine is falling down and do everything to get Russian intervention.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 25 2014 12:18 utc | 141

Bevin @ 111

Quite evidently, this is wholly delusional nonsense

They realised, as we realise today, that there is, very likely, a big difference between attempting to make revolutionary change in a world in which the ruling class is split into competing blocs and states and one in which one global hegemon, with the ability to track our every movement and to monitor our lives from cradle to grave, rules.

The primary logic behind anti-imperialism in this era is to prevent the emergence of an all compassing global ruling class and a supranational state authority.

First, the ruling class, by which you mean the economic elites, are doing business together and in competition with each other quite effectively to detriment of the rest.

See, for instance, huge business deals between Exxon Mobil and Russian state oil/gas companies.

The emergence of "all compassing global ruling class" has already occurred and continues to strengthen under our noses as we blog.

The "supranational state authority" is a mirage. It is unnecessary to maintain the interests of the ruling elites.

This is something you tacked on to make yourself believe you still hold an ideal worth fighting for, and that you are not already conquested by the ruling class, that is if you were actually willing to fight for what you say you believe.

Which I doubt.

Some fighters blog but no bloggers fight.

Posted by: chalo | Jul 25 2014 13:44 utc | 142

Very interesting article by Saker:

TOTAL UKRAINIAN LOSSES

Killed in Action: 1600
Wounded in Action: 4723
Tanks: 35
Armoured Battle Vehicles: 96
Artillery: 38
Aircraft: 7
Helicopters: 2
Automobiles: 104

TOTAL MILITIA LOSSES

Killed in Action: 48
Wounded in Action: 64
Tanks: 2
Armoured Battle Vehicles: 0
Artillery: 5
Automobiles: 8

TOTAL CIVILIAN LOSSES

Killed: 496
Wounded: 762

My comment: militias losses ratio seems too good to be true (guerrillas are always favored in such combat, but not to THIS extent), one of the sides is playing with numbers IMO.
--------------

Official Ukrainian Report by the head of the Ukrainian Security Service, V.O. Nalyvaichenko, to the President of Ukraine, P.A. Poroshenko. July 19, 2014

"2/3 of the active combat military units currently participating in the ATO will simply cease to exist in as little as 4 to 5 days" due to mass desertions and casualties. To provide context for this letter, provided below is another document recently publicized as an internal memorandum from the Ukrainian Ministry of Defence, which details recent casualties of the Ukrainian army, equally as catastrophic as its desertion rates.

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/07/catastrophic-desertions-and-losses-in.html

Posted by: Harry | Jul 25 2014 14:26 utc | 143

@137: There was no Social Democrat treachery involved in the Nazis coming to power. They supported the Weimar Republic to the end. They alone (the Communist deputies were all under arrest or in hiding) voted against Hitler's Enabling Act in the Reichstag. The night of the Reichstag Fire, Social Democrats were arrested along with the Communists, and also that very night the Social Democratic press was also suppressed, for good, as it turned out.

Posted by: lysias | Jul 25 2014 15:48 utc | 144

@Harry #141:

My comment: militias losses ratio seems too good to be true (guerrillas are always favored in such combat, but not to THIS extent)

What you are overlooking here is that the Ukraine is not a real country. Since the Ukraine is not really a country, it stands to reason that it can't have a real army. The Ukraine exists only as a region of Russia; it has no more existence as a nation than Appalachia or the Ruhrgebiet do. The only people who think that the Ukraine is a real country are people like "somebody" who are influenced by fascist and/or postmodernist ideology. "somebody"'s ancestors created the fiction that there is something called a "Ukrainian nation", with a "Ukrainian people" living inside it.

To say it yet a third time, the only people who are really Ukrainians are Ukrofascists, Banderites. All the other citizens of the former Ukraine are Russians, some of whom have been brainwashed into thinking that they belong to a fictional ethnic group called "Ukrainians", others who have not.

The reason the junta's military is experiencing such defeats is that since the "Ukrainian nation" is nothing but a very silly idea dreamed up by Polish, Austrio-Hungarian, German, and American Russophobes, very few Ukrainian citizens are willing to die for it. The only ones who are are the really extreme racist fascist dead-enders, the same people who put the Jews in the gas chambers.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 25 2014 16:41 utc | 145

@137: Also, if you read Mein Kampf, Hitler makes no distinction there between Communists and Social Democrats, he condemns all of them as enemies of the German Volk and part of the Jewish conspiracy. Similarly, Hitler's speeches after he became Chancellor and in the election campaign of February-March 1933 were directed against Marxism in general, not just Communism.

Posted by: lysias | Jul 25 2014 17:11 utc | 146

giap

looks like you forgot to fill your methadone prescription.

b is a fucking mess. He spent several years manning the ramparts of his own brain, and the battle plan is pretty simple: whoever opposes the US is a big hero. About five years ago, b spent a week defending Stalin. Evidently, Stalin's vilification was the product of American propaganda.

b has no ideas.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 25 2014 17:27 utc | 147

chalo, exactly right.

Posted by: slothrop | Jul 25 2014 17:30 utc | 148

The rebels are not nationalists: they just believe that human beings should be free.

Posted by: Demian | Jul 25, 2014 1:07:32 PM | 106

oh quit with the bullshit

this aint CNN or RT

Posted by: Tor | Jul 25 2014 20:41 utc | 149

About that BUK missile system shown in Western "intel" - dumb, deaf, and blind intel; that is - they only show the launcher. No mention, no photos, nothing about the two other essential (and very separate) units that comprise the missile system: the radar unit that was supposed to be active... and the command unit.

26 minutes after Malaysia Air announced to the world that a plane had crashed in Eastern Ukraine, the Interior Minister of Ukraine announced that "rebels" were responsible using a BUK missile system. That is some mighty fine "investigating" to announce such a thing 26 minutes, and less than an hour, after the plane went down.

The Interior Ministry of Ukraine wrapped up the entire investigation within 1 hour of the actual downing, within 26 minutes after Malaysia Air announced that a plane had crashed. Too fast.

The Interior Ministry, along with FIS (SBU) and the military; is one of five ministries controlled by RW elements of The Ukrainian Gov't.

It can be posited that the shootdown was not authorized by the Ukrainian Gov't, but by RW elements within the Ukrainian Gov't. Desperate to provoke a war.

Every single-piece of information released by The Ukrainian Gov't has been falsifiable propaganda.

Do The Math. We know where to begin looking for those who are responsible, in the case of a missile attack.

Posted by: Veri | Jul 29 2014 0:57 utc | 150

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