Gaza, Ukraine, Syria, Iraq.
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July 18, 2014
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For whatever it is worth, my sense, after digesting as much of the coverage as I can from the last 24 hours, is, if we apply the cui bono standard, as we did during the Ghouta gas attack last August, is that this is a U.S./junta job. Even Power’s wording that the missile originated from rebel-held territory is similar to the administration’s claim last year that sarin-laden missiles came from Assad-controlled turf.
Posted by: Mike Maloney | Jul 18 2014 18:21 utc | 1
Gaza, Ukraine, Syria, Iraq.
The amount of wars happening at the moment is ridiculous. Basically everything from Iran to the Mediterranean is a warzone and then Ukraine as well. Localised wars all bleeding into each other and becoming one giant regional conflict.
Posted by: Colm O’ Toole | Jul 18 2014 18:27 utc | 2
Here’s the fucking Guardian on how the pro-Russians are blocking access to the site with this fucking gem of a line:
While even Obama admitted that the US does not know exactly what happened, amid the ludicrous theories the circumstantial evidence did appear to point more and more to an accidental attack by separatists, who thought they were shooting at a Ukrainian military jet.
Beyond the point addressing “ludicrous theories” – just fuck off, war criminals – it’s pretty amazing how the stories/propaganda so quickly shift the narrative from the reality of pro-Russians defending territory against a US-backed fascist junta to the intransigence of the “separatists” who just MUST let the fucking fascist war criminal whores have access to whatever the fuck they want to have access to.
Once again, Samantha Power can go fucking rot in war criminal hell, the fucking whore.
Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 18 2014 18:29 utc | 3
Well, well, ONCE A FUCKING AGAIN the murderous war criminal whores renege on the own storylines:
Ukraine’s security forces confiscate the air traffic control recordings.
Again, the point of even BOTHERING to assume that the US and its murderous stooges – anywhere in the world – MIGHT actually be honest/truthful/aboveboard about ANY FUCKING THING is looong past.
Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 18 2014 18:34 utc | 4
if the airliner was shot down intentionally, then the cui bono issue must be considered
if, on the other hand, those who shot it down thought they were shooting down a different plane, a plane of their enemies, then it becomes not a cynical move in a chess game played with innocent lives, but merely a blunder such as often happens in the fog of war
they meant to destroy a plane, and kill people, but not THIS plane and THESE people
this is what seems most plausible to me
Posted by: mistah charley, ph.d. | Jul 18 2014 18:38 utc | 5
JSore:
The dying empire won’t go gently into the night ~ UK is going down with it… they’re like cornered snakes now…
Posted by: crone | Jul 18 2014 18:38 utc | 6
The fucking world fucking community seems fucking desperate to get a fucking cease fire. Maybe the fucking Ukie army really is in fucking trouble.
Posted by: dh | Jul 18 2014 18:40 utc | 7
Trusting that we can all walk and chew bubble gum at the same time, I bring up Gaza.
Found this online and it seems a good idea to me:
“…I called all my politicians yesterday and told their offices that I will hold them personally responsible for every crime Israel commits, very child Israel’s kills, and that I and many other americains understand that their hands are dripping with jewish blood money—that we are fuly aware they take pro Israel political money in exchange for allowing Israel to steal and kill. This was met with a stunned silence, then confused mumbling and then the assurance that my opinion would be passed on the senator /congressman.
You cannot be meek, politically correct or afraid of the anti semite slur if you want to rid the US government of zionism and Israel and ever reclaim anything even remotely resembling what the american founders had in mind as a democracy.
Not to be trite, but if your enemy brings knife to the fight, you bring a gun—and that gun, the most effective weapon against the US politicians and Zios alike is’ Traitors.’
In 1963 we had the Fulbright senate hearings on ‘zionist infiltration of the US media”. We need to have another one and one that ends it this time. And to get that started you have to use a threat to politicans that zio lobbies and money cant over come and is more deadly to political careers than anything the I lobby can threaten them with—-Treason against their own country.”
Don’t know if you’ve heard: The Senate passed a resolution expressing support for Israel on the same night the country launched a ground offensive into the Gaza Strip.
Sens. Bob Menendez (D-N.J.) and Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) authored S.Res. 498, which reaffirms Senate support for Israel, condemns unprovoked rocket fire and calls on Hamas to stop all rocket attacks on Israel.
For the record, no U.S. military adventure has had the support of all hundred senators in decades. But, hey, this is Israel. And, more important, this is AIPAC. And cash.
Posted by: crone | Jul 18 2014 18:52 utc | 8
The problem mistah charley @ 5 with the idea that Novorrosiya forces brought it down is that you cannot expect a ragtag militia member to be able to operate a SA-11. You need to have radar plotted out; you need to know particular codes, etc. It is not in a layman’s scope.
This means we have to assume that a team of Russian greenmen experts with a specially imported battery did the deed. But such experts would not make such a blunder, would they?
Just reading the first reports filed from the crash site I came away with the distinct impression that it was the junta.
Posted by: Mike Maloney | Jul 18 2014 18:52 utc | 9
It would not be to Russia’s advantage to either do the deed or assist others in doing the deed. Just as in “follow the money” ~ one can “follow the motive” ~ who stands to gain?
Posted by: crone | Jul 18 2014 18:55 utc | 10
I agree, crone. I with you. There a lot of people though who are taking a nuanced view, saying that Ukrainian military aircraft shadowed the 777 into a Novorrosiyan hot zone, drawing the missile fire and downing the passenger jet. This might be. But I think the idea that Russia is responsible is not credible.
I also at this point am doubtful that Novorrosiya militia either possessed or had the expertise to operate a SA-11.
Posted by: Mike Maloney | Jul 18 2014 19:04 utc | 11
Questions of “Cui Bono” have somehow been successfully smeared as a tactic of true conspiratards only, you really can’t even bring it up even on the most “progressive” of websites. They get all mouth-frothy.
I would caution against reading comments sections anywhere(but here of course) today. It’s thoroughly dismal.
Posted by: L Bean | Jul 18 2014 19:06 utc | 12
Yesterday, in a news article from Sky News about the Malaysian plane, there was mention that the airliner disappeared from radar as it flew over the city of Kremenchuk in central Ukraine, southeast of Kiev. So to me, as a non-expert, it seems the plane wasn’t yet near rebel-held territory, although the forward momentum may have carried the debris further to the east.
Posted by: Forgetful | Jul 18 2014 19:16 utc | 13
Could Putin’s plane have been the target? I can say that Putin’s plane and the Malaysian Boeing intersected at the same point and the same echelon. That was close to Warsaw on 330-m echelon at the height of 10,100 meters. The presidential jet was there at 16:21 Moscow time and the Malaysian aircraft – 15:44 Moscow time,”
a source told the news agency on condition of anonymity.
“The contours of the aircrafts are similar, linear dimensions are also very similar, as for the coloring, at a quite remote distance they are almost identical”, the source added.http://www.theburningplatform.com/2014/07/17/was-putins-plane-the-target/
Posted by: harry law | Jul 18 2014 19:20 utc | 14
#9 Mike Maloney – there are degrees of skill between “complete novice” and “expert” – perhaps someone in the middle range was at the controls – good enough to target and fire the missile, not quite good enough to use all the “identify the target” bells and whistles
someone i’ve met – a friend and colleague of my wife – lives in the netherlands and may have possibly been among the conference attendees on the plane – we don’t know yet about this
here are some sayings from gurdjieff – the last one is particularly relevant:
Like what “it” does not like.
Do not love art with your feelings.
A true sign of a good man is if he loves his father and mother.
Judge others by yourself and you will rarely be mistaken.
Don’t judge a man by the tales of others.
Consider what people think of you—not what they say.
Only he who can take care of what belongs to others may have his own.
Practice love first on animals, they are more sensitive.
One of the best means for arousing the wish to work on yourself is to realize that you may die at any moment. But first you must learn how to keep it in mind.
Posted by: mistah charley, ph.d. | Jul 18 2014 19:21 utc | 15
re: Ukraine. If we accept the premise that EU/US/NATO accidentally fell into backing a poorly thought out coup, as I do, then the timeline speaks for itself.
Opinions aside, there is credible evidence that the Western hegemony over played their hand. Ample evidence clearly shows that Western hegemonic powers are utterly without scruple in pursuit of their ends, whether they understand them or not. My conclusion is Poroshenko and crew, including CIA and Academi mercenaries, staged and executed a false flag operation to either goad Putin into action or tee-up unilateral NATO “intervention.”
Posted by: cincop8 | Jul 18 2014 19:32 utc | 16
All of these false flags have had the objective of NATO intervention.
Posted by: L Bean | Jul 18 2014 19:35 utc | 17
@ 15
thanks mistah charley… holding your friend in the light. I’ve read some of gurdjieff’s writings, or others about him…
have spent the last two decades giving care to dying family members… and strive everyday to remember that this life is precious and I may die at any moment… which is why I now spend so much of my energy and time, at the twilight of my years, on the keyboard. Action of some kind is required to counter the evil that manipulates so much of our thought today… I, for one, will not surrender to the borg. I live for the day it is gone.
Posted by: crone | Jul 18 2014 19:41 utc | 18
ETN has now retracted the independent confirmation of the source “Carlos” or @spainbuca
I emailed them to ask a little while ago and got a reply from their chief editor.
“Dear Alejandro,
Thanks for your email.
We had 3 different sources (2 in Eastern Ukraine, 1 in Kiev) alerting us to these tweets and claiming to know the person tweeting this.
After investigating this more, we can no longer claim that this is 100% accurate and changed the disclosure accordingly.
We changed the disclosure to say
ETN statement: The information in this article is not independently confirmed and based on the statement of one airline controller and other tweets received.
Thanks for your interest – we will of course stay on the story.
Regards”
Posted by: Alejandro | Jul 18 2014 19:41 utc | 19
Sorry here is complete email with sign.
“Dear Alejandro,
Thanks for your email.
We had 3 different sources (2 in Eastern Ukraine, 1 in Kiev) alerting us to these tweets and claiming to know the person tweeting this.
After investigating this more, we can no longer claim that this is 100% accurate and changed the disclosure accordingly.
We changed the disclosure to say
ETN statement: The information in this article is not independently confirmed and based on the statement of one airline controller and other tweets received.
Thanks for your interest – we will of course stay on the story.
Regards
Juergen Thomas Steinmetz
publisher and president
eTurboNews, Inc
P.O.Box 208
Haleiwa, HI 96712-0208 USA”
Posted by: Alejandro | Jul 18 2014 19:43 utc | 20
Mike M.,
Tony C. at Global Research agrees:
Posted by: crone | Jul 18 2014 20:01 utc | 21
re: the downed airliner –
Just once I’d like to see someone stand up for their crimes and own them.
At least “terrorist” groups, the Taliban, etc have the balls to take responsibility for what they do. The cowardly warmongers in the West love to cause havoc and blame others for their misdeeds.
Posted by: Prey4Justice | Jul 18 2014 20:07 utc | 22
El respeto al derecho ajeno es la paz.
Benito Juarez.
He that prayeth well, that loveth well both man & bird & beast.
He prayeth best, who loveth best all things both great and small.
For the dear God who loveth us,
He made and loveth us all.
Samuel Coleridge.
Muchas gracias.
Posted by: Fernando | Jul 18 2014 20:07 utc | 23
Thank you, mistah charley @ 15 for the Gurdjieff aphorisms. You are right. the last one is a gem. As to the idea that there was someone at the controls of the missile battery that was good enough locate a 777 flying at 33,000 feet and hit it but not smart enough to recognize that it was a commercial aircraft, that’s the question isn’t it? One that applies both to the junta and the Novorrosiyans. Unless Flight 17 was intentionally downed to sow confusion and herd the reluctant Europeans to adopt more aggressive sanctions against Russia.
What can be said with certainty is that Poroshenko immediately blamed Novorrosiya. And immediately unnamed U.S. officials were pointing the finger at the “separatists.” Putin was blamed in the lede unsigned editorial in NYT today. Finally, if you read the many stories in the front section of NYT today, the only time the possibility of the junta being at fault for the downing of the Malaysia Air passenger jet is when the DPR or Putin is quoted.
We are dealing with a full-on propaganda campaign. So we must be mindful. As Gurdjieff himself would want.
Posted by: Mike Maloney | Jul 18 2014 20:09 utc | 24
@9 and @10 – ditto..
@17 – that’s the obvious ‘coincidence..
the question i ask is ‘whose purpose does this serve the best?’ is that a coincidence or a conspiracy?
Posted by: james | Jul 18 2014 20:14 utc | 25
Who Ordered MH17 Flight to Lower Altitude?
Full flight history for Malaysia Airlines flight MH17
In the website flightradar24.com one can find the data of the history of recent Malaysia Air MH17 travels across Europe. Just briefly looking at the data, one can run the recording of each particular flight, its path, speed amd altitude.
Earlier flights in July, assigned altitude was 33,000 up to central Ukraine and before entering East Ukraine the Malaysia Boeing 777 climbed higher to 35,000 feet! Sometimes as early as passing Kiev, or Dnepropetrovsk or shortly before reaching Donetsk.
ALTITUDE CHANGE
On the previous day July 16, the assigned flight altitude was lowered to 31,000 ft and upon reaching Ukraine border was adjusted to 33,000 ft. On the fateful day of Thursday July 17, this same flight pattern with altitude of 31,000 ft changing to 33,000 ft. Coincidental?
On Dutch news broadcast I heard the request from pilot MH17 to ascent to 35,000 ft was denied by Kiev Air Control.
See my earlier posts – Wretched Statement by Ms Clinton On Crash Malaysia Flight 017.
@crone #10:
“Follow the money” indeed! I don’t think Lloyd’s of London would have approved such a flight plan. So:
1) Shot down by Ukie mil or it’s ‘allies’
2) Diverted over NR airspace to bait the rebels
Posted by: Dr. Wellington Yueh | Jul 18 2014 20:21 utc | 27
Evidence Continues to Emerge #MH17 Is a False Flag Operation
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/07/evidence-continues-to-emerge-mh17-is.html
Posted by: crone | Jul 18 2014 20:26 utc | 28
The flight path of Malaysia Air Flight 17
different from the Malaysian flight on the same route the day before …
Posted by: somebody | Jul 18 2014 20:27 utc | 29
Ukraine launched an extraordinary attack on Vladimir Putin tonight by accusing the Russian president of having the blood of one of the infant victims of flight MH17 on his hands by publishing a harrowing picture of the dead baby.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2697010/Faces-innocent-victims-Melbourne-real-estate-agent-wife-student-leading-AIDS-doctors-confirmed-dead-Flight-MH17-terrorist-attack-killed-298-people-board.html
Posted by: harry law | Jul 18 2014 21:12 utc | 31
@31
Not unlike those people who wanted to spread police photos of the Sandy Hook crime scene, yet didn’t even want to think about what Obama’s drone-launched Hellfire missiles can do to young bodies.
Posted by: Jon Lester | Jul 18 2014 21:19 utc | 32
@crone #27:
That post mentions what I had already read that eyewitnesses at the crash cite reported, that some corpses gave out such a stench that they must have been dead for several days. I’m afraid I don’t know what to make of that TBH.
The only thing I can make of it is that that it is counterinformation that is injected into a counternarrative which is opposed to the official line about something, to make the counternarrative look like a “crazy conspiracy theory”.
@Mike Maloney #23:
Yes, that the junta and the USG instantly started saying that the rebels/Russia are responsible, but the Dutch and the Brits, for example, are saying that it is too early to tell, together with cui bono, are a clear indication that this is a false flag op, like the alleged nerve gas attacks by the Syrian government. The Empire appears to be at its wit’s end.
As I said before, what makes this black flag op such a hard sell is that so many Dutch people were killed, with the Dutch being some of the most privileged members of the Empire. They will not take kindly to the hegemon sacrificing their fellow countrymen in a futile effort to prevent its collapse.
Nobody heard the plane’s pilots Mayday!! calls? Surely one of them must have got a minute or two worth of Maydays out, unless they were killed outright. But Strelkov says the cockpit is mostly intact and the pilots dies on impact with the ground.. Furthermore, if it was a SAM, it was likely chasing the plane and struck its tail section, but would such a hit render the plane unflyable? The biggest question however is who deviated the plane from its historic flight pattern–was it a voice command or an electronic hijacking? The uploading of the AN-26 shootdown labeled as the boeing shootdown by the Ukies points a finger directly at them. And the cui bono answer is clearly Ukies/NATO, not Russia or Novorossiya. Apparently at the same time, there was a meeting of the Ukrainian Security Council being chaired by Poroshenko, which is likely where the order to shoot at the plane originated. And why just one missile given the odds of it being able to hit its target? Did one of the Ukie jets “accidentally” fire its cannons, realize its terrible mistake, and peal away?
Still lots of questions, but it sure looks bad for the Ukies, which is why the Propaganda System is in such high howl.
Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 18 2014 21:42 utc | 35
CNN Report: Did surface-to-air missile S-200 take down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17?
Ukraine holds military parade on Independence Day – Aug. 26, 2008
BUK-M1 mobile air defence systems of the 11th Air Defence Regiment of the Western Air Command; Vega air defence systems of the Kiev 6th Air Defence Brigade; and a division of S-300PS surface-to-air missiles, which can shoot down aircraft and missiles flying at 4,000 km per hour at the range of up to 90 km and height of up to 30 km.
I couldn’t find this earlier, when I was recalling having read about it. It was posted April 1st
http://syrianfreepress.wordpress.com/2014/04/01/israel-caught-housing-identical-twin-of-flight-370-in-tel-aviv-will-usisrael-pull-off-another-9-11/
Posted by: crone | Jul 18 2014 22:13 utc | 37
If you want to see how the US political system is driving the media check out this from VOA.
http://www.voanews.com/content/ukraine-plane-crash-analysis/1960697.html
They discuss the SBU recordings which could be faked. But I wonder if the NSA (or the UK’s version of NSA) produced the recordings.
From here they jump to an exaggerated assertion:
“Russian weaponry, money and personnel have flowed into Ukraine for months now, with Moscow’s full support, or at least acquiescence.”
We’re on a Tilt-A-Whirl of spin.
Posted by: Curtis | Jul 18 2014 22:23 utc | 38
Just remembered that with the Syrian false flag chemical weapons attacks, the Israelis claimed to have intercepted telecommunications too, which USG treated as a substantial part of the irrefutable evidence that the Syrian army was responsible. As I recall, in those recording the ostensible perpetrators expressed confusion too, having hit someone other than their intended targets. It is all from the same playbook.
The escalation is evident. When you destabilize a country, false flag ops are required to intensify the intervention. Destabilizing a European country to the point of causing a civil war was one escalation. Running a false flag op which killed hundreds of west Europeans was a consequent escalation.
Is this going to make the leaders of Germany, Britain, and Holland see that maybe letting a country in the middle of Europe come under the control of full-fledged fascists was not such a good idea?
Apparently, CNN gave avoiding a weather system as the reason for the flight path diversion (July 17, 2014 – CNN Claims Storm Diverted MH17’s Course, But Shown To Be False
@gbazov @GrayCardinal1 No storm. http://t.co/NpQbtGMEHF
— Rosa Luxembourgeoise (@RosaLuxembourge) July 17, 2014) as reported at Saker’s website. If this is correct, it’s tantamount to an admission of guilt.
Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 18 2014 22:27 utc | 40
It’s fine to theorize here at moonofalabama. But when we go out onto the mainstream comment sections, as I hope most of us are, I think we should take the high ground debate-wise with the following: ‘We don’t know what happened, so why jump to conclusions and accuse Russia when there is no hard evidence and only accusations? Like Putin and many others have said, let’s have an independent investigation, find out who did this if we can, and _then_ get angry at them and punish them.’
@Curtis #37:
Am I the only one who thinks that Russian intelligence agents discussing something which can incriminate them over an open phone line is a sure and sufficient sign that the recording is fake? Have you ever heard of tradecraft? Russian spies pride themselves on their professionalism.
The recordings that got leaked that made Ukies and EU and US officials look bad were always of diplomats, officials, or politicians, never of spies.
Also, credible leaked intercepted phone conversations are always of known people, who often acknowledge that the recording is genuine. The recordings that the Ukies release are always of unknown individuals.
By the way, Booman is a rabid Russophobe. That was already clear from the Georgian-Russian war.
Here’s an example of how I’m ‘doing it’, just posted under that ugly, accusatory, warmongering Guardian editorial:
We don’t know what happened; the black box has not been examined and Kiev is keeping the the air traffic control recordings under wraps. In that context, why has the Guardian decided to more or less accuse Russia and the eastern Ukraine rebels of responsibility for the tragedy? What’s the motivation for jumping to that conclusion?
Like Putin and the UN has said, let’s have an independent investigation, find out who did this if we can, and _then_ get angry at them and punish them. That’s the way a civilized international system would work.
After the near countless times – just since the beginning of the GWOT, let’s say – that initial US/Zionist war criminal narratives have turned out to be nothing but complete and utter horseshit that run 180 degrees to reality, I waver between thinking that either average citizens/comment posters are so fucking retarded/brainwashed that there is no hope for humanity OR that the propaganda mechanisms have become so potent that said comments are nothing more than bots generating whitewash and hasbara.
I mean, reading the comments on MSM sites, it’s like the last 10 years of murderous lies just never fucking happened and everyone just jumps on what the war criminal US tells them.
Seriously, it’s bad enough having to sit here and listen to morons argue against their own social betterment by advocating for neoliberal economic policies that directly hurt their domestic but when it involves the flagrant murdering – yes, I know one’s just a quicker form than the other – of citizens worldwide, you’d think there MIGHT be the slightest glimmer of doubt in the minds of the hoi polloi when the government/MSM starts the shithorn ablaring.
Nope. Nothing. Not here in the Idiot West. What’s that you say, Obama? The Russkies shot it down? Putin shot the missile himself?
Sounds good to me!!! Hey, would anyone like to join me in a moment of silence for the beleaguered Israelis who are attempting to survive Hamas’ Missile Rain of Terror?
Hopeless.
Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 18 2014 23:13 utc | 45
Meant to be:
“hurt their domestic lives…”
I mean, in this age of “non-inflation” people here don’t even notice that containers of food are getting smaller but THE PRICE IS STAYING THE SAME!! I guess I shouldn’t wonder that they don’t have a skeptical neuron left in their crania. If you can’t even figure out how you’re getting screwed out of the food money that keeps you and your family alive, I guess I shouldn’t think that you might doubt the war criminal narrative as it tweets its way into your belief system. #gullible #idiots #rerun #forever
Doubt the US government’s intentions/stories in Ukraine and Syria etc?!!
Why, boy, it took me 20 years to figure out that I wasn’t making as much money as I used to!!
Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 18 2014 23:22 utc | 46
Clare Daly Condemns Israel’s Ongoing Massacre of Palestinians in Gaza
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOKvaKOvGvg&list=PLfrlsC1yJ2dTW8sbCPCZDx3A5OpIcziQl
Posted by: Tom Murphy | Jul 18 2014 23:40 utc | 47
For goodness sake, Strelkov admitted they shot down the plane when they thought it was a military aircraft. It’s the same tragic mistake the US has made before. You don’t need to make up fake conspiracy theories that it was a Ukrainian missile.
Posted by: bob dole | Jul 18 2014 23:57 utc | 48
@JSorrentine #44:
I just looked through the comments in the dKos diary about the speech Obama made about the Ukraine crisis today, and also followed a link there to a piece by David Remnick in the New Yorker. My resulting impression is that America has not been in such a Nazistic, mindless state since the immediate weeks after 9/11.
For decades many have wondered what the US would do when it has to face the choice that the USSR made: do you go down peacefully as an empire? We are now seeing the answer to that question.
The same majority of Americans will believe the lies that their government is telling them today about Russia and the former Ukraine as believed the lies told to them after 9/11. (Sadly, people who post at dKos are part of that majority, unlike the case after 9/11.)
The main question now, I think, is whether the black flag op of downing MH17 will slow the parting of ways of the US and Europe, or accelerate it. There is no doubt that this latest psy-op was a desperate attempt to slow it down.
@fairleft #40:
From looking at dKos, I do not think that there is any point anymore in posting on “mainstream comment sections” in the Anglosphere. There is no hope of making the English speaking world see reason, because doing so would require realizing that what it gave to the rest of the world was a brutal lie.
@48
You know what the difference is between 2001 and 2014 when it comes to dKos?
This time theres a Democrat in the white house.
Dkossacks would have supported the war in Iraq if Gore did it.
Theyre that brainless and tribal. “Democrats are gooooood, Republicans are baaaaad…”
In this alternate history scenario we probably would have had Republicans against the war in Iraq. Theyre no better.
Posted by: Massinissa | Jul 19 2014 0:22 utc | 50
@47
Strelkov only posts at a certain forum, he doesn’t have any social media accounts, not in Facebook, no in Vkontakte. All accounts from his name are either reposts from the aforementioned forum or fake. He didn’t post anything about downing a cargo plane. Info appeared on social media as a quote of some rebel. Are we taking posts on Facebook as evidence now? Seriously?
What I’d really like to know is who has the black box. Conflicting info on this from all sides.
Posted by: green | Jul 19 2014 0:26 utc | 52
There are several black boxes and the two recovered so far are in possession of Strelkov and Co.
Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 19 2014 0:33 utc | 53
Some Western media outlet, sorry forgot which, quoted DPR PM Borodai as saying the objects militia found were not black boxes.
Posted by: green | Jul 19 2014 0:39 utc | 54
J Sorrentine at 44 and 45:
That kind of despair is a large step toward this kind of conservatism/fascism: “Fuck all the chumps, what’s the use of fighting the good fight, I’m gonna get mine!”
Demian at 48:
You’re way too pessimistic. The mere fact that all this bullshit is going on — repeated psy-ops, NSA surveillance, tight message control of public and private propaganda outlets, a unified front of the official ‘left’ and right — and poll numbers _still_ say F#ck NO to sending US troops to Ukraine, shows that resistance is natural, and adding rational voices into the mainstream helps. Every little tiny bit helps, but it takes more than just me, and despair is irrational and not helpful.
Not that you shouldn’t get back over here and take a rest among like-minded and well-educated-in-the-right-way folks.
@Massinissa #50:
This whole thing can really be figured out at a fairly a priori level. (That’s one reason why I haven’t gotten into looking at inconcistencies in the timestaps of YouTube videos alleging to be recordings of intercepted calls, etc.)
1. In the last month, how Putin has been handling Novorossia has become clear to people who are concerned about Novorossia. He lets Russian institutions give it substantial support, while maintaining plausible deniability. From this one can infer that the resistance would not have been able to obtain a Buk missile system. To use it effectively, they would need the help of Russian experts, which breaks deniability. In any case, they do not need such weapons, since high flying aircraft are not much of a threat to them.
2. The Ukies believe their own propaganda. They have said that Russian planes have shot down their own aircraft. This means that they would have set up Buk missile systems near the Russian border, so that they have the option of shooting down Russian aircraft should they enter the former Ukraine’s airspace. This means that the Ukies could have shot down AH26 by accident, while the resistance couldn’t.
3. In any case, we have all the telltale signs of a black flag op run by the US: instantly denounce the target of the op as the perpetrator; release a fake recording incriminating the target; only engage in the black flag op once it becames clear that the side you are backing is losing.
I don’t think this latest effort of the US to isolate Russia from the EU will fly…
Putin knows who shot down the plane
Merkel knows who shot down the plane
and on and on…
Those are the people who count…
More than 1/2 the countries of the world are fed up with the Hegemon…
As for dKos ~ I’ve never had any hope for them…
Posted by: crone | Jul 19 2014 0:51 utc | 57
It simply isn’t reasonable to expect Russia to counter US propaganda inside the US. That’s just too much to ask. It doesn’t mean they shouldn’t try, only that within the US it is obvious the USG point of view will be ever present and most of the public predisposed to view themselves as the good guys. So no need to loose heart over the DKos comments, frustrating as they are.
Posted by: Lysander | Jul 19 2014 1:12 utc | 58
Who is the intended audience? That’s the cui bono. Set aside the massacre of 295 innocent human beings who could have been any one of us, who were the killed for? I say the American public, who despite everything still have residual faith in theirgovernment and the MSM. I’m with Jsorr 100 pct on what’s happening here.
The problem is that the US does not have what it takes to put feet on the ground in Ukieland or enforce a no-fly zone. The gambit is beyond imbecility; short of mutual annihilation, it has no outcome except humiliation.
Posted by: Knut | Jul 19 2014 1:16 utc | 59
Johnny Cash – “One”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGrR-7_OBpA
Posted by: Paty Kerry | Jul 19 2014 1:24 utc | 60
wrt Gaza
NBC reverses; Mohyeldin to return to Gaza to cover ‘Palestinian side of story’
I guess all those phone calls got to somebody!
Posted by: crone | Jul 19 2014 1:32 utc | 61
Posted by: crone | Jul 18, 2014 9:32:14 PM | 59
An Arab-American for the ‘Palestinian side’ of the story and a Jewish-American for the ‘Jewish side’ of the story, but no one for the actual story. Very post-modern.
@57 The important target for Russian Counter-propaganda is Europe. Which just so happens to speak English almost as much as their native languages these days. So having an English language alternative to American propaganda is of paramount importance.
Fortunately, Europeans dont use shitty websites like Dkos, so Dkos is of no importance.
Posted by: Massinissa | Jul 19 2014 1:53 utc | 63
Here is latest from NYT, far down into a lede story:
Separatist leaders on Friday denied taking down the Malaysian plane, and Russia’s foreign minister, Sergey V. Lavrov, dismissed Ukraine’s accusations of Russian involvement. “In the last few months, I have not heard practically any truthful statements from Kiev,” he said.
The Russian Defense Ministry said at least five Ukrainian air defense systems were within range to down the plane. It added that the flight path and crash site were within two areas where Ukraine was operating a long-range S-200 air defense system, and where three squadrons were deployed with Buk-M1 medium-range air-defense systems.
Ukraine denied that any of its forces had been involved, and American officials said they believed that denial. “The Boeing was outside the zone of possible destruction by the antiaircraft forces of Ukraine,” Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council, told reporters.
After months of trying to gently prod European allies to take tougher action against Moscow for its intervention in Ukraine, Mr. Obama decided to raise the diplomatic temperature on Friday on both Russia and American allies. He sent his United Nations ambassador, Samantha Power, to the Security Council to describe what she called “credible evidence” that the separatists were responsible.
There you go. It basically says it all, and from the “newspaper of record” no less, albeit buried at the bottom of the story: U.S. has no real proof (NYT even put “credible evidence” in quote marks); U.S. accepts at face Ukrainian denials that it had the same weapon systems in the area; and Obama used the downing of Flight 17 to hector the Europeans to get tougher on Russia.
What more do we need to conclude this is Ghouta all over again?
Posted by: Mike Maloney | Jul 19 2014 1:54 utc | 64
fairleft, I picked up the headline from Mondoweiss site
This is the official statement:
“Ayman Mohyeldin has done extraordinary reporting throughout the escalation of the conflict in Gaza, filing 25+ reports over the past 17 days, including his invaluable and well-documented contribution to the story on the deaths of the four Palestinian children on Wednesday. As with any news team in conflict zones, deployments are constantly reassessed. We’ve carefully considered our deployment decisions and we will be sending Ayman back to Gaza over the weekend. We look forward to his contributions in the coming days.”
You stated:
An Arab-American for the ‘Palestinian side’ of the story and a Jewish-American for the ‘Jewish side’ of the story, but no one for the actual story. Very post-modern.
————–
There are the readers of the stories. Perhaps, between the two points of view, the ‘story’ will arise. Nah, that’s too idealist.
Posted by: crone | Jul 19 2014 1:56 utc | 65
@Lysander #57:
Hopefully you and fairleft are right. dKos seems to have gotten considerably worse than when I last looked at it. The place is composed of no one but Obama dead-enders. It is now nothing but a Dem zombie echo chamber. But it is still incomprehensible to me that people who call themselves Democrats can take it fully for granted that the USG is always in the right, without a second thought. We used to associate that position with rednecks.
I suppose the positive side of this is that given that thinking Americans still exist, nobody but zombies “believes” that Democrats have anything to do with representing the interests of the American people any more.
This false flag airliner takedown is a sure sign of increasing desperation by the hegemon. The Ukie goons are losing on all fronts. Things will likely escalate in the coming days. I pray the world survives the coming conflagration.
Posted by: Jacobo Arbenz | Jul 19 2014 2:20 utc | 67
it takes canned goods to quickstart the next great power imbroglio?
sad all the mass produced death goods out there
Posted by: Jay M | Jul 19 2014 2:27 utc | 68
Demian, the Dems are headed for the woodshed. I don’t think there is enough appreciation yet how much Obama’s dropping all pretense that he is sensitive to the peace wing of the party (a wing that cannot be discounted in the early going of the primary season) along with zero success delivering on economic justice issues as well as his pirouettes on immigration — how all this is going to hollow out the Dems going forward. I see a party in free fall.
All Dem hopes now are pinned on reproductive freedom and same-sex marriage. Are these the issues that are going to juke turnout among blacks and Latinos, which is how the Dems won with Obama? No. Of course not.
Posted by: Mike Maloney | Jul 19 2014 2:33 utc | 69
#62…”Ukraine denied that any of its forces had been involved, and American officials said they believed that denial.”
Who was it that said “I don’t believe anything until it’s been officially denied”? Case in point right there.
Posted by: Colinjames | Jul 19 2014 2:35 utc | 70
Kiev is desperate because Kiev, by themselves, seem unable to crush the eastern separatists. Kiev, then, needs some way to pull western powers into the conflict on their side. So they shot down the plane and seek to blame it on the rebels.
Russia is desperate to fend off the western powers’ grab for Ukraine. Russia could like Kiev in, ummmm, 15 minutes or less. But Russia needs an excuse to war on the government in Kiev. So Russia sneaked a missile firing battery into Eastern Ukraine sometime during the night and Russian technicians knocked down a Maylasian airlines flight the next day. The plan is to blame the whole thing on Kiev, making it likely that western powers (mostly Germany and France) will turn their backs on Kiev and sit on their hands during the 15 minutes it takes Russian troops to make a mudhole of Kiev and hang every member of that Neonazi regime from the few lampposts left standing in the mudhole.
Without powerful evidence acquiting one side or the other, either argument is plausible. August is going to be a windy month, methinks. NATO better hope RT Network doesn’t sick Oksana Boiko on them.
Posted by: Deke Solomon | Jul 19 2014 2:36 utc | 71
@Deke Solomon #69:
I hope that that’s just failed snark. It makes no sense for Russia to engage in false flag operations, since for such ops to be of any benefit, you need to control the media. The US controls Western media; Russia does not.
Good old NATO ‘Warfighter” pork rations at 0:54 … slightly BBQ’s it seems … a little gas bottle explosion?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnSmHr7scA8
Posted by: x | Jul 19 2014 2:48 utc | 73
Fairleft, you don’t know what I fucking do when away from this site so save your fake left “don’t be a nihilist” horseshit peptalk for the starry-eyed coeds that you probably woo with your vast knowledge of geopolitics.
Seriously, how the fuck do you think blogs like dkos got the way they did?
Gee, could it be due to the incessant and shrill tut-tutting of the fake-left scolds towards people of conscience to not be “fatalistic” about world events, to stay involved, to change the system within that has been the cri de coeur of the fake left for decades? Nah.
I mean, I wouldn’t want you to keep yourself up at night thinking that your influence on blogs may have actually helped perpetuate the vanilla ineffectual tenor of most Western political blogs.
Rather, just give yourself a pat on the back for helping reform a wayward soul on your way out to meet your date.
You’ve saved me. The future’s so bright I’ve gotta wear shades.
Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 19 2014 3:10 utc | 74
Maloney – 67 —
I see a party in free fall.
It will probably take a few days (at least, one hopes) before it becomes clearer exactly how Team Obama plans to use this “fortuitous’ event in furtherance of their agenda … the things one hears … such as “Hopefully now Europe will see the light, banish their doubts and rally behind Obama” with special mention of Georgia and other low-hanging fruit, now considered possibly ripe for the plucking (since Putin is now “weaker”.)
Obama is such a blank-slate, such an empty-suit, it feels odd to hope that he has a GWB come-to-Jesus moment and realizes (as Bush apparently did eventually) his “advisors” are leading him into dangerous places. I fear their school-boy desire to “best” Putin. Those fuckers really do make their own reality, living in that endlessly confirming, bell jar echo chamber in which “We’re number one” is the sweetest song.
It will be “interesting,” cough, to see how the “international markets” react … consumer confidence is weak, food prices and gasoline are on the rise … November’s just around the corner. Obama’s never been much of a democratic party asset … he’s number one in his universe. I keep wondering exactly how he’ll subvert Clinton’s inevitable run or will 8 years of “it’s the racism, stupid” be followed with 8 years of “it’s the sexism, dumb-ass” … or will America elect a consummate insider (another Bush, Clinton, Biden or Kerry) or another self-interested careerist spokesmodel with dollar signs in their eyes (like GWB who I think agreed to run for the office believing he would “inherit’ his daddy’s lucrative seats on all those multinationals, that and snubbing Jeb)
Posted by: Susan Sunflower | Jul 19 2014 3:14 utc | 75
Let us play make believe for a moment, shall we? It should not be too difficult, as news today is nothing but! Let say Vlad shot down the plane as a clear and unambiguous message to the EU; kill Russians and you will pay dearly!
We have been extremely understanding, as the empire is ruthless when crossed –wake up call, so can we; especially when you are culpable in the murder of hundreds of innocent Russian children, women and the elderly. You, meaning the EU collection of “nations” have facilitated a Russian humanitarian disaster of over half a million lives. You unleashed your agent-provocateurs that strangulated a pregnant woman in Odessa. All of this, Why?
To steal Odessa’s LNG gas plant? Fracking in the Dnieper-Donets Basin? To control the price of our energy exports to your nations? This is a final warning, choose a side … or, keep up the subterfuge and you mother-frackers will understand what we are truly capable of!
@56 Damien
You are right of course that DKos is nothing more than an organ of the dem party.
But there is one poster there who does an excellent job of savaging the dems and their neoliberal policies–bobswern. He’s as good as anyone.
Other than that, the site is only worth reading to peruse the techniques developed by the dems to lure so-called “progressives” to the party, mostly by cracking Sara Palin jokes and showing how intellectually superior they are.
That’s their critique of the status quo, lol.
Posted by: sleepy | Jul 19 2014 3:57 utc | 79
from Pat Lang
“Dr. Strangelove is back.
Dr-strangelove-bomb
“There were earlier Russian reports that the rebels had captured Ukrainian surface-to-air defense but no details. The SA-11 or SA-17 are, however, logical systems for rebels to have used earlier in shooting down a Ukrainian AN-26 military transport at a reported altitude of 26,000 feet.
A passenger aircraft would have no warning of such an attack, and its black box would not record any data on the intercept. It is extremely unlikely to pilots ever saw the incoming missile or could accurately characterize it if they had only seconds in which to speak in ways the black box could record.” CSIS
—————————-
The Yellow Media are creating a Doctor Strangelove situation. They do not seem to grasp the idea that the war between Russia and the USA toward which they are groping will destroy both countries altogether. Once more, a war between the USA and Russia WILL DESTROY BOTH COUNTRIES and much of the rest of the world.
As Cordesman notes there are many unanswered questions concerning the fate of Malaysia Flight 17. The evidence that has been revealed is sketchy. There is still the possibility of an electro/mechanical failure of some sort. Nevertheless, people like LTC (Ret.) Rick Francona USAF (CNN) are participating in jacking up public hysteria that pushes the country toward war with Russia. I guess the money must be good. It is obvious from what he says that he most likely is still being briefed in the Pentagon. IMO, there is no way that he could know some of the things that he says he knows without that. Several networks got in a lot of trouble over that kind of thing during the Iraq War but CNN apparently is back at it again. Francona was an assistant of mine when he was a captain. I thought better of him. He ought to know better than to do this.
Perhaps the neocon/R2P crowd in power do not understand what nuclear war would mean. pl
http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2014/07/do-not-rush-to-judgment-cordesman.html
Posted by: crone | Jul 19 2014 4:13 utc | 80
Malaysian jet tragedy propagandized – Ron Paul
Referring to the tragic downing of a Malaysian Airlines plane over eastern Ukraine, former Texas congressman Ron Paul warned against jumping to conclusions over the culprits.
http://rt.com/usa/174008-ron-paul-malaysia-ukraine-crash/
Posted by: crone | Jul 19 2014 4:48 utc | 81
Russian Spring
Donetsk. 07/19/2014-02:34
Strelkov:
Today was relaxing a tad. In settlement Marinovka, three 200th (killed) (two – military offenders strayed into Ukrainian minefield) and one 300th (wounded). No casualties elsewhere.
A reconnaissance group of the 1st battalion attacked a block-post in area of settlement Ostroye (east of Kurakhovo). One armored carrier was destroyed.
The airport was bombarded by mortars – there was a powerful detonation. Was this because of bombardment or Ukrainians blew ammunition in preparation to abandon – remains unknown.
The outskirts of Donetsk (villages Peski, Andreevka) were shelled by tanks and “Grad” (salvo rocked system).
Tank outposts of the opponent took over villages Tonen`koye and Severniy (north-east of the airport). Both tiny villages were previously shelled by salvo rocket systems. Victims were some civilians.
Reliable information about Lugansk is unavailable.
Russian Spring
Donetsk. 07/18/2014-13:38
Question: The Boeing was shot down by Su-27
Strelkov:
Such information exists. So far, however, I have yet to sort out the situation for myself. Therefore, this version (and any other) I did not vocalize …
According to the people who collected corpses, significant number of corpses was not “fresh” – those died up to several days ago. The reliability of this information is not guaranteed – forensic medical expertise is necessary, of course.
Question: At least someone had to fly the aircraft.
Strelkov:
First, far more than few were not dead before the crash.
Second, the cargo of the plane included large quantity of medicaments, blood serum and such, which is atypical for an average liner. It looks like the cargo had specific medical designation.
Third, I do not insist on anything (for the time being). Literally a moment ago, conferred with two people who personally collected the corpses immediately after the crash (both are from Shakhtersk, so arrived to the scene in less than half an hour after catastrophe). I convey their words. They emphasized that many corpses were “entirely bloodless” – as if blood clotted way before the catastrophe. Strong cadaverous smell was also noted – unlikely such a smell could form within half an hour regardless of weather, which yesterday was gloomy, not overly hot.
Fourth, I am utter suspicious about various “conspiracy” theories, but 18 combatants poisoned by chemicals then defending Semenovka positions, executions of combatants’ relatives and other specimens of “little gleefulness of svidomyi patriots” (svidomyi – Ukrainian conscious) persuaded me that Ukrainian authorities are capable of any sort of foulness.
The pilots, of course, were totally alive – the whole cockpit (and the front part preserved well) was literally soaked in their blood.
Posted by: Fete | Jul 19 2014 5:25 utc | 82
@HAHA #76:
The random murder of civilians, AKA terrorism, is a central component of Anglo-American foreign policy; Russians consider it to be immoral, and do not practice it for that reason.
The English and the Americans killed millions of civilians in World War II with their “strategic bombing”; the Soviets did not engage in strategic bombing.
@81
Thank you Demian… I was unaware of that fact about Russia.
Posted by: crone | Jul 19 2014 5:34 utc | 84
@81
58 silo-based SS-18 Satan ballistic missiles, 160 road-mobile Topol (SS-25) missile systems, 50 silo-based and 18 road-mobile Topol-M (SS-27) systems, and 18 SS-29 Yars systems. At sea the Russians maintain eight Delta III/IV nuclear ballistic missile submarines … all of which makes your point moot!
It’s a brave new world.
@HAHA #83:
So you are a Russophobe, and a troll to boot.
Having an adequate nuclear deterrent has nothing to do with strategic bombing. Strategic bombing is about pounding the enemy’s population and infrastructure to death so you weaken him to the point where it is easy to invade and occupy his territory.
The purpose of having an adequate nuclear deterrent is to make sure Mutual Assured Destruction applies, so that no side will ever engage in nuclear (strategic) bombing, because it would lead to its own destruction.
Please leave this blog. It is now clear that you are trolling; you are just more clever than some of the trolls we have had before.
on spanish ATC Carlos at kiev
Jorge Alberich Anuchin
18 hrs ·
Buenos días a todos!
Me gustaría dejar nuevas cosas en claro respecto a información sobre el vuelo Malasya Airlines 17 (MH 17)
1. @spainbuca (cuenta suspendida por Twitter) – Es real; verificada con IP de Ucrania. Esta persona tenia doble nacionalidad (Española y Ucraniana); Muchas páginas web afirman barbaridades respecto a el SIN TENER PRUEBAS.
2. A través de varios servicios confidenciales y privados, existen análisis de la cuenta de @spainbuca; por lo que actualmente descartamos lo que va por Twitter: “@spainbuca es un fake” – La cuenta era real; y los datos en ella también!
3. Me han informado a través de varias fuentes lo siguiente: Me afirman que USA mando una orden a Twitter Inc. para eliminar la cuenta de @spainbuca por motivos “desconocidos”.
4. Existen señales de varias personas que trabajan para empresas de “http” que confirman que USA mandaba órdenes a Ucrania (Kiev).
Bueno señores, eso era todo de lo que podía informar. Las fuentes de información son confidenciales.
#Ukraine #spainbuca #Kiev #MalasyanAirlines17 #MH17 #Boeing777
Good morning to all!
I would like to make new things clear regarding information about flying Malaysia Airlines 17 (MH 17) 1. @spainbuca (suspended by Twitter account) – is real; verified IP of Ukraine. This person had dual nationality (Spanish and Ukrainian); Many websites say terrible things about the without having evidence.
2 on several private and confidential services, there are analysis of the count of @spainbuca; by what currently rule out so far on Twitter: “@spainbuca is a fake” – the account was real; and the data in it also!
3. I have been informed through various sources as follows: claim Me that it uses command order to Twitter Inc. to delete the @spainbuca account for “unknown” reasons.
4. There are signs of several people working for companies of “http” confirming that USA sent orders to Ukraine (Kiev).
Good gentlemen, that was all that could inform. The sources of information are confidential.
#Ukraine #spainbuca #Kiev #MalasyanAirlines17 #MH17 #Boeing777 (Translated by Bing)
Posted by: brian | Jul 19 2014 6:12 utc | 87
@HAHA, read this to learn something you should know from history: http://www.geschichteinchronologie.ch/eu/D/1945-rheinwiesenlager/ENGL/001-basics.html
Posted by: Robert | Jul 19 2014 6:15 utc | 88
@86
The Holocaust in Russia from German Nazi occupation is certainly no justification for the horrendous treatment of the Nazi prisoners. However, it pales in comparison to what Nazis visited upon the Russian people in WWII. Not to even mention the 3.6 million Soviet prisoners of war that died in German POW camps.
And the same twisted ideology is rearing its ugly head again today right in Russia’s back yard … I do not thin so. Been there done that.
Brian,
where did you find that info? Can´t find it nor even “Jorge Alberich Anuchin” .
Could you put a link up please?
Posted by: Annon | Jul 19 2014 6:57 utc | 90
36
Yes, I was looking for that post also, glad you found it. Every single aircraft has a unique registration number stenciled onto the fuselage or tail fin in large black letters. Every one, without any exception. Nowhere, in any of the coverage of this event, is the aircraft registration number mentioned.
The overlain flight paths of all commercial jets including Malaysian air, show that particular flight path has been used many times before, then the ‘diversion’ or ‘shadowing jets’ must have been at a registration level invisible in a Google Earth view of Europe.
This whole thing reminds me so much of Sep11, the ‘dream sequence’ tail wagging the dog, you have to believe whoever took down the other Malaysian flight was just the beta test, and now the Zuks can use this at will, anywhere in the world.
Remember the Maine!
Remember the Lusitania!
Remember the Gulf of Tonkin!
Remember the Yellow Cake Memo!
Why did US invade Grenada again? : )
Now we know what the ‘alternate universe’ would have been like, if the Nazis had won WW2.
Posted by: chip nikh | Jul 19 2014 7:01 utc | 91
@84
Russo-phobic? definitely not. Did you pull that from your front left pocket with your right hand? Did you know that ad hominem attacks are the least effective and most obvious form of propaganda?
Clever? I like to think of it as thinking outside of my comfort zone. Try it sometime … it is a great way to challenge yourself.
Posted by: JSorrentine | Jul 18, 2014 11:10:08 PM | 72
There’s no damn reason to call most Americans morons and idiots. They live in the empire’s homeland, so of course they are the most heavily propagandized people on earth, and everyone is actually smart enough to catch on that what they say is being monitored by the government or their future corporate boss. Why is that hard to think? Why do you prefer, hell why do you LOVE the “everyone’s a f@king moron” explanation instead of the “everyone’s heavily propagandized and afraid of being ‘out of line'”? One explanation feels better than the other?
@HAHA #90:
You have not replied to any of my points. That confirms that you are a troll.
Goodbye. Expect no more replies from me. I hope that others will ignore you from now on, too. Different trolls, same remedy: ignore.
@92
I thought I answered you concerns … you just did no like my answer. Hence, you turned native on me.
Judging from current storries in the British and the German press, now that USG has gotten the Ukies to shoot down MH17, USG is using that massacre to once more try to get EU countries to break with Russia. Let us see how that works out.
Isnt it strange that neither Russia nor West/Ukraine could provide evidence what happend? The parties must have satetlites (and other intelligence) over the area?
Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 19 2014 7:35 utc | 97
@94
My hope is that the EU will begin to understand that this situation they allowed to fester in the Ukraine is a danger to them. Hopefully they will begin to move away from NATO.
But, I am an optimist…
It is my understanding that Merkel AKA (Nipples) lost control of her industrialists; they are not on board with the sanctions. This in combination with the obvious danger the Nazis pose to everyone, may seriously compel her to rethink their partnership with NATO and its adventures against Russia.
Posted by: Anonymous | Jul 19, 2014 3:35:43 AM | 95
isnt it strange you dont use your name?
Posted by: brian | Jul 19 2014 8:06 utc | 100