Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 9, 2014
Ukraine: Time Is On Russia’s Side

The Saker now calls for immediate Russian intervention in east Ukraine.

It would be a mistake if Russia would do this. The U.S. is only waiting for such a move. It could then again push the "Russia=Aggressor" meme and gain even more influence over Europe. The Cold War Version 2.0 that would ensue is in Washington's interest, not in Moscow's.

Russia has all the economic means it needs to press the U.S. puppet in Kiev into some agreement. That may take a bit of patience though. The Saker thinks time is on the Kiev side and prolonging the situation would help the coup government. I do not agree with that. There is no harm to Russia when it just sits back and waits until the economic crisis in Ukraine lets the Kiev regime crawl to Moscow and declare its defeat.

Comments

Yep, b I’m with you on this and very rarely disagree with Saker. It’s hard I’m sure for Russia to do that but in long run it’s best.

Posted by: jo6pac | Jun 9 2014 18:14 utc | 1

b misunderstood Saker, time is on Russia’s side, but not on the side of Novorossia with every day escalating massacres.
Russia wont intervene openly though (unless it gets really bad), but covertly its ramping up support as we speak IMO. There are rumors of Chechens joining the resistance too, etc.

Posted by: Harry | Jun 9 2014 18:28 utc | 2

The Saker now calls for immediate Russian intervention in east Ukraine.
Russia is already “immediately” intervening in Ukraine, just as The West is. It’s called Good Cop/Bad Cop tag-teaming. Invasion and occupation by mercenary proxy. Destabilization’s the ultimate goal — lots of suffering and murder as a condiment with the failed state burger. Fun stuff — for some. Endless material for analysis and discussion for others. Other others know nothing about it (and don’t want to know about it) and if you were to mention Ukraine they would look at you like you’re speaking Martian.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Jun 9 2014 18:34 utc | 3

b
YOu are right, Russia doesnt have to do anything, ukraine is going down and Russia will win. You cant win against guerilla fighters and the views and urges in the east.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jun 9 2014 18:41 utc | 4

Bizarre this ‘flip flop’ by Saker. First thought in my head was, did his site get jacked?

Posted by: Jacobo Arbenz | Jun 9 2014 18:59 utc | 5

@Harry #2:
You’re right, time is not on Novorssia’s side. I posted the following in the earlier thread.
Colonel Cassad: Slavyansk under fire (in Russian)

In Slavyansk, in the day goes on the quite senseless bombardment of the city centre with large caliber artillery. Principally civilian targets are hit, suggesting that civilian victims are desirable, otherwise there is no military reason to fire on areas with high-rise buildings, where there are no militia positions. DND Militia suffer only episodic losses which produce little influence on the defence system of the city, so the brunt of such terrorist attacks just goes on civilians. Attempts to intimidate the local population, by destruction, is in the spirit of the practice of the Nazis of WW II times, so that their modern Ukrainian imitators do not differ from them, except that the junta’s opportunities for the destruction of the Ukrainian people are just slightly less. In general, what is happening is a war crime that is broadcast live, which shows the connivance of the so-called “world community”.
The only thing that can put a stop to all this is militias switching to an attack (for which they obviously do not have enough forces) or the introduction of no-fly zones; what is lacking is the political will. So the militia in Slavyansk still have to sit in the defense and residents to hide in bomb shelters, waiting for changes in the strategic situation.
On this subject Strelkov has already quite clearly expressed himself:

Reinforcements in Slavyansk there are NOT. And, apparently, they are not planned. The enemy’s tanks sweep through the roads. After a hard shelling of the city centre, around – the broken glass and debris from trees. There are a number of fires. On the one hand, all right – we should create mobile reserves and protect the rest of the territory of Novorossia. On the other, if Slavyansk is not helped, all those mountains of shells that are now falling on us, will fall on other cities of Donetsk and Lugansk region. And it’s not the case that the “rear guard”, entrenched in Donetsk will stop the enemy like our troops do. So far, examples are directly of the opposite.
In any case, at resisting the regular army some 100 “special forces” or even 1000 (whether they are three times Alfa-Rambos”) will fail. Grief counselors in the Kremlin led the situation to the moment when an unavoidable dilemma arose: either Novorossia will be fully surrendered, or one must FIGHT for it in full force. There is no longer a third option; all other options were successfully “chewed over by spineless creatures” over the past month and a half.
Of course, to us, the defenders of Slavyansk, the second option seems to be the only one possible – on it depend the lives of our soldiers and their families and relatives. But Moscow has a different opinion. Judging by the “half-steps”, “the supply of spineless chewing creatures is far from being exhausted”.

https://vk.com/strelkov_info?w=wall-57424472_1818 – zinc
Actually, Stlerkov expressed about the same dilemma of two solutions that I wrote about http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1618496.html 2 days ago.
The situation is developing in such a way that, whether it wants to or not, the Kremlin in a very short time will have to make a choice and to reap the consequences of that choice – either pour out [give up] Novorossia, or perform in some form or other a military intervention. The chairs are beginning to move further apart.

Posted by: Demian | Jun 9 2014 19:02 utc | 6

Russia should openly declare that it will will help its friends in UKR just as NATO is doing in Syria.

Posted by: Andoheb | Jun 9 2014 19:02 utc | 7

The Kiev junta has committed so many atrocities against Ukrainians living in the southeast that I cannot see how the Ukraine can remain unified. If it did, all Ukrainians who are not rabid Uki nationalists will be living under oppression, in an incredibly worse situation than even Russians living in Latvia. At least the Latvians did not unleash a genocidal war against Latvian Russians.
Yet even today, Lavrov spoke about a unified Ukraine. The situation in Donetsk is now a humanitarian catastrophe. Putin said he would intervene in such an eventuality.
If Russia can’t, within the next few days, get Kiev to stop it’s terrorist assault on its own people, I think he will be irreparably damaged, as far as Russian public opinion goes.
Putin and Lavrov are speaking in vague terms, whereas they should be at the very least calling for an immediate cessation of hostilities in the strongest possible terms.
Why isn’t Churkin calling for another emergency session of the UNSC? The current attack on Slavyansk does not make any military sense. Its own purpose is to terrorize and kill civilians. How can you negotiate with someone at the same time that he is doing that?

Posted by: Demian | Jun 9 2014 19:26 utc | 8

Intervening in the Ukraine would be a huge mistake. If anything, this activity betrays desperation on the part of the junta. They’re desperately trying to get Russia to ‘invade’ so that the neo-cons in the US will have a bloody shirt to wave.
I feel very, very sad over the terrible atrocities being inflicted on the Eastern Ukrainian cities, but an overt Russian intervention would most likely make everything worse. As bad as things are now, consider how much worse if something like the hundreds and thousands of tons of arms which went from ‘free’ Libya to Syria were to start flowing to the junta.

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 9 2014 19:43 utc | 9

Some tragic videos from today, kiev regime carry out warcrimes every day :
https://www.youtube.com/user/svobodaukr/videos

Posted by: Anonymous | Jun 9 2014 19:43 utc | 10

It is difficult to perceive what strategic goals the US is pursuing with this Ukraine policy. Not sure if this is primary or secondary, but one is to disrupt Russia’s plan for a Eurasian economy. Forcing Bulgaria to cancel the South stream pipeline seems consistent with that goal.
If that is the goal then it seems to me that this is very ambitious, much more than just expanding NATO into Ukraine or plundering the tiny Ukrainian economy. I do not think that time is working against the US here. If economic collapse of Ukraine is what the Russians are waiting for, then we should know that the US could support that economy without difficulty for quite a few years. It would cost only about $30 billion per year. The US was quite willing to spend over a $trillion pursuing a strategic goal in Iraq that was even less important to US imperial interests. If the US is willing to pay, and it can, then time is going to be working against Russia. What Putin has working against him is the growing political pressure inside Russia to support liberation forces in eastern Ukraine.

Posted by: ToivoS | Jun 9 2014 19:45 utc | 11

Every day that Putin ‘doesn’t act’ brings the imperial war machine all the closer to a grinding halt. B2 bombers are sitting in the UK, chomping on the bit to light up some unfortunate village Putin succeeds, by keeping Crimea and by keeping NATO’s goons out of Ukraine. Everyday that Kiev’s goons terrorize and kill THEIR OWN civilians, is another day the beast is exposed to the rest of the world. UNSC on June 16th should be interesting.

Posted by: Jacobo Arbenz | Jun 9 2014 19:51 utc | 12

Lot of naive views here imo,
* ukraine WANT Russian intervention,
* nato WANT Russian internvention,
* US WANT Russian intervention,
* alot of EU states WANT Russian intervention.
Go figure why Russia has not intervened. Thats right, because its a TRAP and wont be in Russia’s interest. You guys that call for intervention or saying Russia is weak just being useful idiots to the warmongers just mentioned above.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jun 9 2014 20:02 utc | 13

It is beyond dispute that Poro is completely under the control of the US and has taken his hard line at their direction. The US hopes that the terroristic actions of shelling and aerial bombardment of civilian targets will create such a furor (as it did with Saker) that Putin will be compelled to intervene.
What then? — Poro will immediately call for NATO support and within days those US soldiers stationed in nearby countries would be on Ukrainian soil. Within weeks a campaign for Crimea and Sevastopol (Plan A all along) will be undertaken. If Sevastopol fell, that would spell the end of a Russian naval presence in the Black Sea – a major military and political disaster.
Once those US forces have established themselves in the Ukraine, they will NEVER leave.
Putin MUST NOT respond to these provocations.

Posted by: chet380 | Jun 9 2014 20:04 utc | 14

@chet380 #14:
Calling full-blown genocide a “provocation” is a bit euphemistic, no?
Factories, electricity generating stations, and water supply lines are being bombed, not just skyscrapers. And Russian TV is reporting all that.
This is turning into another Kosovo: a stark humiliation of Russia. So much for Russia being the one remaining power that can stand up to the Empire. Everything that Putin said in his “historical” speech on the occasion of the formal reunification of the Crimea with Russia turns out to have been just that—talk.
And it’s even worse than that. The people who are now massacring Russians in the Ukraine are exactly the same people that the Soviet Union fought against in WW II. That is how almost all Russians will see it. Russian national pride depends largely on the defeat of the Nazis. But what is emerging now is that Russia could defeat the Nazis then, but it can’t defeat them today.

Posted by: Demian | Jun 9 2014 20:23 utc | 15

Judging by Google News, there is an absolute news blackout about the Ukrainian assault in the anglophone media.

Posted by: Demian | Jun 9 2014 20:27 utc | 16

@12
Oh wow. Its not every day I see a commenter who names himself after a left wing hero overthrown by a CIA coup. Wonderful name.

Posted by: Massinissa | Jun 9 2014 20:54 utc | 17

“What Putin has working against him is the growing political pressure inside Russia to support liberation forces in eastern Ukraine.”
I’d say that it is both working for him, by exposing the Fifth Column of ‘westernisers’ as traitors and working against him by making non-intervention untenable.
Putin does not want to intervene, nor do the kleptocratic oligarchs with whom he co-operates. To intervene implies seriously committing to the (re)construction of an anti-US alliance, the logic of which must, in the end, lead to co-operation with revolutionary nationalism, which is looking for assistance as nations battle to regain their sovereignty.
Sovereignty is the key: the US denies it to its “allies” just as it denies it to Ukraine.
Those waiting for Germany, for example, to defy the US simply because, from a German point of view, US policies are the kiss of death, will have a long wait. In Europe between the NATO, dominated and commanded by the US, and the EU commission, riddled at every level with US agents and conformists fascinated by imperial power, and nation states in which local politics is withering away because-as the electorate knows- national legislatures no longer have very much power and dare not exert even the shreds of sovereignty, that they retain, for fear of coups, assassinations and propaganda onslaughts.
The basic problem in the Ukraine is that the US reckons that it secured the country in 2004 when its Orange Revolution installed the last set of friendly oligarchs. It saw Maidan as just a chance to return to the status quo and return to the agenda of expanding NATO. Of course the aim is to squeeze Russia but it can only work so long as Russia wants to have it both ways: to allow European and US based thieves to plunder its population while the Ukraine’s oligarchs do exactly the same thing to, inter alia, the people of the eastern and south eastern regions.
As to the idea that “western” opinion will prevent its governments from co-operating with fascists, carrying out pogroms in the Ukraine, when did that ever bother “western” opinion? In comparison with Iraq, Syria, Libya and vast swathes of Africa, the Donbass is an island of tranquillity, and not even the “left” critics of capitalism can agree that their governments and the US boss are wrong. They are just as likely to blame Putin as Obama, for what the junta in Kiev is doing.
I still hold the view that the key to solving the crisis in Ukraine, and defeating the fascists and imperialism, is political: to mobilise the masses, both in the Russian speaking areas and beyond, a clear programme of simple economically radical demands, including a repudiation of the national debt and the expropriation of former state property, is needed. Failing that, and without a campaign of political mobilisation the war will indeed go to the side with the most mercenaries, the most ammunition and the support of the US which will be open ended. The Donbass should remember Giap.
But if the People’s Republic does mobilise and puts political substance in its chosen name, not only will the Donbass govern itself, but the example will ignite other risings, real not colour coded, elsewhere. In Poland for example, with its corrupt government. Or France where according to an article in The Guardian “The French are right: tear up public debt – most of it is illegitimate anyway…”
Across Europe, as recent elections showed, the question of regaining sovereignty, which in the end means sloughing off US rule, is one that unites left, right and abstainers. The old parties are dying, poisoned by the putrefaction of the system of which they are part. The tattered curtain of Representative Democracy is disintegrating, the masses cannot but see through it to the reality which is that Europe is dominated by the USA, whose agents constitute the “deep state” from Turkey to Ireland, Estonia to Spain, and that self government requires a European 1776.
The alternative is integration into an imperial system in which living standards will race against individual rights and civil liberties into the bottom of the abyss, and Ukrainians, Frenchmen, Greeks and Congolese will jostle together, fellow slaves subject to the heart of darkness, which is not up an obscure jungle stream but in Washington DC where it is evidenced by its deeds, including the pogroms in Odessa etc, as well as those in Colombia, Honduras and wherever else US influence is permitted to exert itself.

Posted by: bevin | Jun 9 2014 20:56 utc | 18

What is happening in Ukraine now is “violent ethnogenesis”. At the end of it the west will be 100% Galician (called “Ukrainian”) and the east 100% Russian (called “Novorossiyan”). Where the dividing line will be is anybody’s guess – but as ‎Bismarck‬ said, “the great questions of the day are decided by blood and iron.”

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jun 9 2014 21:01 utc | 19

Posted by b on June 9, 2014 at 02:06 PM

“The Saker thinks time is on the Kiev side and prolonging the situation would help the coup government. I do not agree with that. There is no harm to Russia when it just sits back and waits until the economic crisis in Ukraine lets the Kiev regime crawl to Moscow and declare its defeat.”

This is what the Saker actually wrote:

“That, and the fact that if time is on Russia’s side (which it is – Banderastan is not viable), time is not on the side of the people of Novorossia who need help now.”

As can be plainly seen, the Saker does not think time is on the junta’s side at all, and plainly says so: “Banderastan is not viable”. “B” is misrepresenting and distorting what the Saker wrote to mean something the opposite of what it actually does mean. The Saker wrote that “time is not on the side of the people of Novorossia who need help now.” and that “Banderastan is not viable”. Both “b” and the Saker seem to agree that time is on Russia’s side and that the junta are facing deep economic trouble that probably will need Russia to sort out for them.
So why did “b” distort the meaning of what the Saker actually wrote? It made a nice strawman to argue against that would be easy to then refute. MoA could of made an argument against the Saker’s view that Novorossia needs help now, and that further waiting by Russia is not going to change things because of the other points Saker made about Poroshenko and Europe. There are good arguments both for and against this, and you can see people discussing this at The Vineyard of the Saker. But no, “b” twisted what the Saker wrote in order that “b” could use it to try and discredit the Saker.
A rather cheap shot, but not unexpected considering past behavior.

Posted by: scalawag | Jun 9 2014 21:09 utc | 20

@ #17, Massinissa:
Left, right, progressive. All just terms and labels designed to divide and conquer. The cause of alleviating human suffrage was then, and remains now, just and righteous. That’s good enough for me.

Posted by: Jacobo Arbenz | Jun 9 2014 21:12 utc | 21

Repost from the previous thread.
A new very ominous aspect of the western fascist plan for the Ukraine has now emerged that I have not seen referenced to before:
LNR: Kiev has prepared a plan for the resettlement of residents from the West to the East
“The leadership of the Luhansk national Republic (LNR) became aware of plans resettlement to the East of residents of Western Ukraine, reported on Sunday representative counterintelligence LNR.
“The counterintelligence Department of the Army Lugansk people’s Republic received classified information from a reliable source in the government (Arseniy) Yatseniuk. The Ukrainian Cabinet of Ministers with the direct participation of American specialists prepared a secret program, which started already in November of this year”, – the interlocutor has told RIA of “news”.
He explained that the essence of the program is to “organize the gradual resettlement of 250 thousand residents of Western Ukraine, especially from villages and small settlements, to the South-East. First of all, in Donetsk, Lugansk and Nikolaev region”.
The program provides the transfer of the property of displaced persons apartments, private houses and land plots “destroyed and driven out of these areas” militias and members of their families. “There is financial support in the amount of 25 UAH for migrant family,” told the representative of counterintelligence.”
So the Americans “helped” the junta nazis develop a plan to move 250k western Ukrainians into the SE. These “immigrants” will get the properties of the people forced out of the regions by the current nazi military assault.
What this means is that these western nazi atrocities are part of a deliberate plan to drive out people in the east, using terror, so bandera nazi parasites from the west can take their place there. Where have we seen such a “cunning plan” of ethnic cleansing done before? Palestine. Same tactic, use terror to drive out the local population so the “master race” can then be moved in to take their place. If you look at how the western fascists have consistently worked to antagonize and terrorize the people of the SE, this makes it clear why. They’ve been working towards ethnic cleansing and domination on the Israeli model.

Posted by: scalawag | Jun 9 2014 21:17 utc | 22

as far as b getting it right – check the links b provided to the sakers comments.. the saker is like a flag in the wind blowing whatever which way the wind on that day happens to be blowing.. it is a good site, but he is subject to error and misjudgement like everyone else… i agree with b’s analysis that russia will not act and that time is on russias side. short term it is definitely not on the side of the people in eastern ukraine, while the people in the west continue to have a news blackout on all of this..
@18 bevin, i agree with the first couple of your paragraphs and maybe the last few, but the info in the middle is more idealistic then it is realistic as i see it..

Posted by: james | Jun 9 2014 21:19 utc | 23

RT-Russian is also covering this important story about planned ethnic cleansing by the nazi junta and their American masters. So is vz.ru and km.ru.
Guide LNR: We know about the plans for resettlement in the South-East of residents of Western Ukraine

“Guide LNR declares that he became aware of the secret program Kyiv authorities on settlement of the South-East of Ukraine by the citizens from the Western territories of the country. About 250 thousand people to be moved to the territory of the left have left the countryside residents. The program is developed jointly with the United States.
08 June 2014, 21:32
“The counterintelligence Department of the Army Lugansk people’s Republic received classified information from a reliable source in the government of Arseniy Yatsenyuk. The Ukrainian Cabinet of Ministers with the direct participation of American specialists prepared a secret program, which started already in November of this year,” – reports RIA Novosti news Agency the statement of the management of the Lugansk national Republic with reference to a secret source in the counterintelligence LNR.
The essence of the program is to “organize the gradual resettlement of 250 thousand residents of Western Ukraine, especially from villages and small settlements, to the South-East. First of all, in Donetsk, Lugansk and Nikolaev region”.
Thus, the residents of the Western part of the country will pass into the ownership of private houses and land plots “destroyed and driven out of these areas,” supporters of federalization and members of their families. “There is financial support in the amount of UAH 25 thousand for the resettlement of the family”, – explained the representative of the militia.”

Posted by: scalawag | Jun 9 2014 21:23 utc | 24

More of the MoA censorship again. Last post blocked, last time the content was the reason, so let’s try this again without the quoted material, shall we, children.
RT-Russian is also covering this important story about planned ethnic cleansing by the nazi junta and their American masters. So is vz.ru and km.ru.
Guide LNR: We know about the plans for resettlement in the South-East of residents of Western Ukraine

Posted by: scalawag | Jun 9 2014 21:28 utc | 25

My posts are being blocked now.

Posted by: scalawag | Jun 9 2014 21:30 utc | 26

RT is not minimizing what is happening. That’s a relief, because some Russian-language news sites, like gazeta.ru, are, IMO.
E. Ukraine warzone: Demolished houses, fires after heavy shelling (VIDEOS)
As scalawag says, one can differ on whether Russia should intervene militarily at this point. As someone said in an earlier thread, what is really disturbing is how restrained the language of the Russian government has been of late. Lavrov talks of “the need to respect human rights”, when what is being committed is a sustained war crime on an industrial scale.

Posted by: Demian | Jun 9 2014 21:42 utc | 27

ToivoS@11,
Obama doesn’t make a move until he consults with Jay-Z and Beyonce.
Until then, the world holds its collective breath.

Posted by: Cynthia | Jun 9 2014 21:51 utc | 28

Just watch. Let’s see the agenda? It’s a shame it’s come to this.
Don’t be sheeple. Either way it’s disgusting. Death seems to follow the Queen. America? WTF is that?
Am I confusing? Gosh, I hope not.

Posted by: just me | Jun 9 2014 22:00 utc | 29

Jayzee and Sasha Fierce…Beyonce? They’re disgusting.
And the people begged the mountain to fall upon them because they were guilty and didn’t want to see the face of God..

Posted by: just me | Jun 9 2014 22:04 utc | 30

I’m a bit reluctant to say much here, knowing far less first hand information than some here, let alone Saker. But after watching an anti junta military leader discuss the military situation, the problem he has is two fold:
-He is outnumbered, but his people are far more motivated. He can deal with close in stuff, provided he has enough suitable weapons.
-The long range artillery and aircraft are something he cannot deal with; too far for his weapons.
I’ve read that some of the Jewish fighters from the mid East are on their way, several hundred. That will help. I’m sure Russia can come up with a few hundred more from somewhere.
And I hope there’s a way for weapons capable of dealing with the long range artillery and aircraft to perhaps be “found” somewhere along a road or such.
What does have to happen is that the general population in the East do not have to flee permanently, opening it up to the Palestine situation.

Posted by: Earl1940 | Jun 9 2014 22:20 utc | 31

Earl1940 #29:

I hope there’s a way for weapons capable of dealing with the long range artillery and aircraft to perhaps be “found” somewhere along a road or such.

Even if the rebels had such artillery, I should think they would be reluctant to use it, since I don’t see how they could be sure of avoiding civilian casualties. Anyway, Strelkov reported today that the rebels were able to destroy one Grad multiple rocket launcher, which is apparently the most feared weapon that the Bandera fascists are using.

Posted by: Demian | Jun 9 2014 22:34 utc | 32

The BM-21 Grad multiple rocket launcher is the successor of the old BM-13 Katyusha, which was rightly feared by the Wehrmacht, who called it the “Stalin organ” (Stalinorgel).

Posted by: lysias | Jun 9 2014 22:46 utc | 33

@scalawag: That kind of resettlement scheme was of course also practised by the Rasse- und Siedlungshauptamt of the SS in the eastern territories seized during Operation Barbarossa.

Posted by: lysias | Jun 9 2014 22:56 utc | 34

Posted by: Demian | Jun 9, 2014 6:34:52 PM | 30
“Even if the rebels had such artillery, I should think they would be reluctant to use it, since I don’t see how they could be sure of avoiding civilian casualties.”
The bandera nazis are not setting up their artillery in populated areas. Counterbattery fire from the self-defense forces would not threaten local civilians as none are near where the bandera artillery is. You are talking out of your ass.

Posted by: scalawag | Jun 9 2014 23:02 utc | 35

It is impossible to accurately predict the future with the total media news blackout. First no one dares state that the current western political leaders are the paid puppets of the neo-liberal Elite. Second, the neoconservatives direct Washington DC foreign policy and hate Russia. Both groups want to destabilize Russia.
Both, b and Saker, know a lot more about Russia than I ever will. Russia has already been attacked economically with sanctions. Russians must be aware of the risks the West is playing with in order to shake them down and keep their Hegemony. There are groups in the State Department and US Air Force would want a nuclear first strike on Russia. The question is the strength of the ties between the Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs. Are they willing to let Ukraine fall into ruin?
To keep the Russian ultra-Nationalists at bay the current capitalist government must not let New Russia fall to the Nazis. Invading Ukraine risks a nuclear First Strike. The only option seems to give enough covert military aid to keep Eastern Ukraine from falling under fascist control and keep a nationalistic revolt in Moscow from occurring. Wait for the inevitable economic collapse in the West and the whole time watch their brother and sister Russians be butchered in Ukraine.

Posted by: VietnamVet | Jun 9 2014 23:05 utc | 36

@lysias #32:
While the Uki fascists are certainly capable of something like that, I am not sure if they can think that far ahead. Let’s call as a spade a spade, and admit that the Bandera fascists do not have what used to be called “ruthless German efficiency”.
Also, I don’t think Donbas web sites are above making things up. I don’t believe that the Russian media, which I take to be the most reliable media in the world at the moment, has repeated this report.
On a side note, there is a near-total blackout on the current intensified Uki fascist bombardment of its own people in the German press as well. I could find only one German report about it. (FAZ mentioned it in a story about how Poroshenko wants peace, but didn’t mention any civilian casualties, or that Donetsk residence are without electricity and running water.)
ITAR-TASS reported just before midnight Moscow time that the fascists have resumed their shelling. (I recently found out that the Russian word for shelling is артобстрел, which is short for артиллерийский обстрел, “artillery fire”. Those Soviets obviously developed a whole military culture during the Great Patriotic War. It is a great pity that the Empire is forcing the Russians to maintain it.)

Posted by: Demian | Jun 9 2014 23:18 utc | 37

If the US and NATO can get the CIA and other Black Ops to run guns to Libyan “rebels”, then secretly ship the armaments from Libya to Syrian “rebels”, then doesn’t Russia have some kind of Black Ops of its own, to discreetly organize and supply both men and armaments to the Novorossians?
Didn’t the Russians learn anything from fighting the Chechens?
This seems kinda like a no-brainer. The Ukrainians need to be stopped from killing anymore civilians Right. Now.

Posted by: Guest | Jun 9 2014 23:42 utc | 38

I agree that time is on russia’s side here. My view of things (without any specific arguments, as usual, just contemplating the big picture distilled from the various sources and opinions) now would be that it’s most important for russia to keep Ukraine’s “territoral integrity” intact. Thinking long-term, they’ll have the greater means of influence on ukrainian economy and politics after all. Therefore I’d assume that the western, in this case mostly US, aim might be to have a split state – one (western) part under complete “NATO” control and an eastern part that’s constantly in chaos and civil war like condition.
If Ukraine stays intact as a state, I’m sure russia will take a temporary setback and even tolerate the nationalist government for now, give it a decade or so, and things will necessarily swing back to “normality” (i.e. close ties to the big and direct neighbor) again, especially with crimea as an example for stability right next door.

Posted by: peter radiator | Jun 10 2014 0:01 utc | 39

Another error I see many ‘interventionists’ making are these assumptions:
1) The US government in its entirety has formulated a plan for the Ukraine (as opposed to a subset of neo-cons attempting to a political comeback)
2) That the strings between the US and ‘leaders’ like Poroshenko, or Timoshenko, or other oligarchs are entirely one way. Quite a lot of lobbying money has been spent by various Ukrainian oligarchs – just look at the long historical relationship between Pinchuk/Kuzma and the Clintons
3) The only hope the junta has is for an all-out Western intervention a la Yugoslavia. This is, however, very hard to justify when the shells and bombs are all coming from the Ukrainian government. It is notable that any mention of civilian casualties in the Ukraine has completely disappeared in the past month.
Sucks to be those fighters in the East Ukraine now, but it would only get worse if Russia openly intervenes. Hopefully they understand that they can win solely by surviving, and equally hopefully the devastation being wrought will sway ever more of the silent majority into action against the junta.

Posted by: c1ue | Jun 10 2014 0:02 utc | 40

Guest #36 Don’t worry, the Russians are supplying weapons and aiding the liberation fighters in Donbas. So far they have succeeded in shooting down 6 helicopters (at least) and one jet. Where did those missiles come from? Covert support is called covert for a reason.

Posted by: ToivoS | Jun 10 2014 0:05 utc | 41

For maximum amusement value, see NATO whine. (Although in the terms that JSorrentine used, this is beginning the verbal build-up—we’ll see if any of the big players follow up.)
If shelling continues tomorrow, expect more destroyed artillery and bad economic luck—would it be fair to say that Poroshenko will have been sanctioned? Anyhow, kinda curious how the Maidan will react. Meanwhile the silence of the US alleged alternative media on all matters Ukraine has let the penny drop.

Posted by: Johan Meyer | Jun 10 2014 0:46 utc | 42

What a surprise: the only story about the Uki terror op that appears on the front page of Russian Google News is from a Uki news channel.
Google is becoming less and less aware that its motto once was Don’t be evil.
Ah: Google Quietly Drops Its ‘Don’t Be Evil’ Motto

Posted by: Demian | Jun 10 2014 0:52 utc | 43

What no one seems to be mentioning is the supply of gas. The warmth of the European summer will soon be followed by Winter. Completely stopping the flow of Gas to Europe won’t be sustainable in the long run viz-a-viz the state budget & may also be fraught with risk, BUT it WILL (hopefully) split Europe off from the Em-pyre. The govts of Europe are in lockstep with the Em-pyre but when ordinary people can’t heat their homes & may also be laid off from work the pressure on the govts will go through the roof. The Em-pyre will still want Europe to “stay the course” but they won’t be the ones in cold houses of non functioning factories.(which will also hurt their respective economies) This will be a way to “engage” the ordinary man on the street (non MoA & VotS readers) in the conflict of which they seem know very little.

Posted by: Kiwicris | Jun 10 2014 1:10 utc | 44

@39
Complete weaponry you saw in anti-Kiev forces hands so far, was SSR stuff – mostly ‘found’ in ukr. army facilities.
And afaik those helis were downed by HMG.

Posted by: rVs | Jun 10 2014 1:12 utc | 45

Putin would have to be very dumb to intervene in Ukraine, given that it would not only be falling into Obama’s trap, but also that the cost of even a very small intervention would be many times more than covertly giving both materiel and humanitarian assistance.
Without a causus belli the Europeans will opt for business as usual. I think I mentioned before that the Germans came out rather badly the last time they fought Russia.
And according to Obama the Russkis are already doing everything they can to overthrow the “democratic” and “legitimate” government of Ukraine, in any case.

Posted by: Rackstraw | Jun 10 2014 1:22 utc | 46

@42 Kiwicris.. yes, and i think this is the long view strategy of russia at this point too.. who knows how many false flags happen before winter sets in?

Posted by: james | Jun 10 2014 1:24 utc | 47

@scalawag: thank you for challenging deliberate distortions of what I actually wrote.

Posted by: The Saker | Jun 10 2014 2:45 utc | 48

At the risk of building a speculative bridge too far – does anyone see a connection between Shell’s fracking agreement for eastern Ukraine (which calls for the govt to remove residents from drilling sites) and the resettlement process that just came to light? Someone made the connection in an RT comment just now and I couldn’t quite let it go.
I know Shell is pulling out of its US fracking, and I full well know that fracking is a bust in general, but it did seem a little suspicious that driving people from their homes had already been on the agenda.

Posted by: Grieved | Jun 10 2014 3:11 utc | 49

@scalawag: thank you for challenging deliberate distortions of what I actually wrote.
Posted by: The Saker | Jun 9, 2014 10:45:06 PM | 46

Your entire blog is a distortion, so if someone distorted what you said, maybe they set it straight by accident.
Tomorrow I will follow-up on my latest post from last week. Your blog is the point of it. I appreciate the rope you’ve provided me to hang so many in absentia. In that sense, you’ve been of invaluable service.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Jun 10 2014 3:25 utc | 50

Russian Spring
Slavyansk.
Strelkov:

Moments ago, the combatants struck a “blow of retribution” upon a battery of “Grads” (salvo rockets) in area of a block-post to “Red Liman”. Yesterday’s assault was retaliated with excess. One unit was shattered, for sure, plus detonation of ordnance.
I think, soon they start what they do the best – bombard the city.
Burned 1 armored carrier between opponent’s block-posts “B3S” (abbreviation) and turn to “Red Liman”.

Russian”>http://rusvesna.su/news/1402320798/”>Russian Spring
Slavyansk.
Strelkov:

Today, most of personal of “Slavyansk” ambulance shamefully ran to “Donetsk”.
Some “physicians” around city hospitals stopped admissions. In urgent need, either full time or rotating: surgeons, resuscitation specialists, traumatologists, ambulance drivers; also, 1-2 resuscitation vehicles and 3-4 ambulance vans.
As the mobile service in “Slavyansk” is practically absent, advice to contact my deputy in “Donetsk” Fedor Berezin.

Posted by: Fete | Jun 10 2014 3:28 utc | 51

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Jun 9, 2014 11:25:29 PM | 48

@scalawag: thank you for challenging deliberate distortions of what I actually wrote.
Posted by: The Saker | Jun 9, 2014 10:45:06 PM | 46
Your entire blog is a distortion, so if someone distorted what you said, maybe they set it straight by accident.

So Cold N. Holefield and MoA are one and the same. Thanks for making the source of the smears obvious.

Posted by: scalawag | Jun 10 2014 3:46 utc | 52

On a Novorossia web site, I ran across this video of Sahra Wagenknecht of die Linke giving a speech at the Bundestag (overdubbed in Russian). She says to Merkel, who is present, that Merkel has deceived the German people about the Ukraine.
Her full speech is here, without any overdub; the part about the Ukraine starts at 5:23. It begins: “In the Ukraine, Europe has already run aground.” Dr. Wagenknecht appears to be a lonely voice in the Bundestag, speaking truth to Merkel and to the Empire. I got the distinct impression that her remarks about the Ukraine made a good portion of the Bundestag very uncomfortable.
If somebody reads this, maybe he can put die Linke in context for us a little, when it comes to German politics.

Posted by: Demian | Jun 10 2014 4:04 utc | 53

scalawag – drama queen par excellence…
“My posts are being blocked now.
Posted by: scalawag | Jun 9, 2014 5:30:12 PM | 24”
friggin idiot..

Posted by: james | Jun 10 2014 4:49 utc | 54

Posted by: james | Jun 10, 2014 12:49:27 AM | 52
Are you gay? Serous question, btw. Not a put down.

Posted by: scalawag | Jun 10 2014 5:26 utc | 55

There was a huge Ukraine show down between Die Linke and the Green Party, too.
And Social Democrat Foreign Minister Steinmeier lost his cool.
It took Die Linke some time to get that aggressive on German Foreign Policy in Ukraine.
This here is Gregor Gysi on Crimea – more conciliatory and even handed though just as critical on the toleration of fascists in Ukraine. I guess they have decided a strong stance will get them progressive votes. Probably they are right.
Die Linke are a mix of the surviving GDR communist party and a part of the ex West German left wing. They get something like 20 to 30 percent in the ex GDR and 6 to 8 percent if they are lucky in former West Germany. They have a kind of split personality, as they are made up of people close to ex governing elites (GDR) and left wing fringe/hard line trade unionists (West Germany).
Social Democrats are very quiet on Ukraine Steinmeier seems to count on being able to find a solution in cooperation with Poroshenko and Russia. He came out with a meek “The Ukrainian government should be careful not to aggravate Eastern Ukraine further by military measures”.
I am not sure Poroshenko has the power to stop the “anti terrorist operation” even if he wanted to.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 10 2014 6:17 utc | 56

Hmmmm…let’s see, Russian site, translated, western fascist non-approved content – will this post make it past the MoA censor (hello jamie, who thinks having posts censored that don’t promote western fascism is a “good thing”, how is the weather in Tel Aviv/Langley?):
http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.ru/www.vz.ru/news/2014/6/10/690702.html Militia Slavyansk during a counterattack captured the howitzer.
This should allow them to respond more effectively than “Nona” or the short ranged infantry mortars. Hopefully they captured a decent amount of ammo to go with.

Posted by: scalawag | Jun 10 2014 6:18 utc | 57

@53 -hey scalawag.. no.. in my 50’s – musician, mostly jazz and improv. hang around with lots of bipolars, undependable s, weirdos and etc. but not gay.. how about you? i haven’t been able to figure you out and said what i said to you based on your conclusion @ 50 which i think is another cheap shot at b. i don’t know why you bother if you don’t care for b. why not just hang out at the sakers? either you benefit from reading others comments or links here, or you are hoping to educate others. your actions/words don’t make sense to me in an overall pattern. i am fine with chaos up to a point too..

Posted by: james | Jun 10 2014 6:22 utc | 58

@55 scalawag – when you make a comment like this “(hello jamie, who thinks having posts censored that don’t promote western fascism is a “good thing”, how is the weather in Tel Aviv/Langley?)” it is tempting to conclude you are in your 20’s as opposed to having lived life much..

Posted by: james | Jun 10 2014 6:31 utc | 59

Posted by: Demian | Jun 10, 2014 12:04:58 AM | 51
add to 54, German political context
A coalition of German “progressive” parties – Die Linke, Grüne, Social Democrats – would represent the majority of Germans, ie. replace Merkel.
Green Party and Social Democrats condition any coalition at government level on Die Linke agreeing to NATO membership – which they don’t

Posted by: somebody | Jun 10 2014 6:33 utc | 60

Posted by: james | Jun 10, 2014 2:22:02 AM | 56
“musician, mostly jazz and improv. hang around with lots of bipolars, undependable s, weirdos and etc. but not gay..”
Like J. Edgar Hoover, you are above all that common riff-raff…I understand.
Question for you and your vast inside knowledge of the workings of “empire”. Is being gay still a requirement to rise up in the ranks of the FBI?

Posted by: scalawag | Jun 10 2014 6:44 utc | 61

ahh scalawag.. you are more ignorant then i initially thought!

Posted by: james | Jun 10 2014 6:54 utc | 62

b
Sorry, this is a non-win situation.
Ukraine has been Palestinianized. The pro-Russian separatists are in the exact same position as the anti-government Syrian mercenaries. Russia is like the USA, it can’t declare war and go to full battle rattle. So it’s a 60-year war of attrition and forced resettlement of the now 2nd-class Russians, together with a pincer movement on Crimea, and Kiev has all the time and Cold War dark government funding it needs.
All Putin has is the gas pipeline hammer. But it’s not a weapon. If he stops shipments to Ukraine and on through to Europe (Ukraine will steal what it wants), then EU will back US deeper involvement to oust Russia from Crimea through the same faux ‘coalition of allies’ B’Cheney shoved through the UNSC for OEF-A and -I. Putin will have to go to World Court demanding debt repayment, at the same time as US/EU deepens sanctions. Russia relies on oil and gas exports to EU as their main barter, in exactly the same way Iran is being strangled.
US-IL is, after all, the Empire, a giant anaconda that waits for every relaxation, every exhalation, every war fatigue, then tightens its grip. None of the NGOs are allowed to enter ‘war zones’. There will be no urgent pleas on late-night TV, ‘won’t you please help’?
Just a standard Zionazi slow-motion extermination. Time is clearly not on Freedom’s side. Besides, US is entering the election season, and US citizens will turn away from Ukraine.
‘How dreadful knowledge of the Truth can be when there is no help in the Truth.’ Sophocles

Posted by: chip nikh | Jun 10 2014 6:58 utc | 63

@52, @53: Don’t bet on the Linke. Whenever they see a chance to get hold of a seat in a state government, they will betray their own purported ideals. The so-called party of peace supports every massacre Israel has committed.

Posted by: g_h | Jun 10 2014 7:01 utc | 64

Posted by: chip nikh | Jun 10, 2014 2:58:41 AM | 61
All Putin has is the gas pipeline hammer. But it’s not a weapon. If he stops shipments to Ukraine and on through to Europe (Ukraine will steal what it wants), then EU will back US deeper involvement to oust Russia from Crimea through the same faux ‘coalition of allies’ B’Cheney shoved through the UNSC for OEF-A and -I. Putin will have to go to World Court demanding debt repayment, at the same time as US/EU deepens sanctions. Russia relies on oil and gas exports to EU as their main barter, in exactly the same way Iran is being strangled.
You forget that Europe needs the gas and does not want to go to war with Russia.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 10 2014 7:05 utc | 65

Posted by: g_h | Jun 10, 2014 3:01:32 AM | 62
“The so-called party of peace supports every massacre Israel has committed.”
The way of the west.

Posted by: scalawag | Jun 10 2014 7:09 utc | 66

The german “Linke” is a fake left, co-opted by the usual suspects and just playing the leftist sentiments, while okay’ing the imperial politics just as any other pan-european party (they are one too). So every now and then some of their honchos will come and start saying things that make sense and appear right, but it will ALWAYS turn out being just a smoke-screen for the globalist politics, just painted a bit red superficially.
Their voice is rather irrelevant in german politics too.

Posted by: T2015 | Jun 10 2014 7:15 utc | 67

poroshenko once again threat more violence, now he calls for civilians to be evacuated,
http://rt.com/news/eastern-ukraine-army-operation-680/
if this was libya nato would have bombed this man already.
meanwhile ukraine refuse to pay gas bills, what an idiotic regime!

Posted by: Anonymous | Jun 10 2014 7:15 utc | 68

@somebody #58:
Wow, that’s really interesting. That suggests that NATO membership is eine aktuelle Frage (an issue that is recognized to currently exist) in the German political system.
@g_h #62:
Sorry, but the crisis in the Ukraine is a matter of geopolitics, of what form the world order takes. Israel/Palestine is trivial by comparison.
If the Russian Federation is willing to sacrifice Russians living in the Ukraine in order to liberate humanity as a whole, how can one berate politicians from die Linke working at the state level for not standing up for Palestinians?

Posted by: Demian | Jun 10 2014 7:19 utc | 69

@67: Liberate humanity? You forgot the irony tag.

Posted by: g_h | Jun 10 2014 7:22 utc | 70

Britain – The Daily Telegraph – notices that the Ukrainian “anti terrorist operation” is counterproductive.

You might expect the insurgents to be tense and fearful, but I’ve usually found the army to be more on edge. At one roadblock, a suspicious soldier with blazing blue eyes inquired where we had come from and where we were going. Then he abruptly asked my driver: “And what is your opinion of separatism?” When a teenage member of a national army demands to know the political views of the people he is paid to protect, then you know things are going wrong. And the signs are that the “anti-terrorist” operation mounted by Ukraine’s security forces to recapture the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk is coming off the rails.
That has important consequences for the West’s response to Ukraine’s crisis. Put bluntly, we cannot simply place the burden on Vladimir Putin to end the killing. Petro Poroshenko, the newly elected president of Ukraine who took office on Saturday, must also correct his government’s mistakes.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 10 2014 7:29 utc | 71

“of what form the world order takes. Israel/Palestine is trivial by comparison.”

No doubt that is a reflection of “white man’s burden” trivializing Palestinian people and their rights. It’s also a reflection of the version of white supremacism currently in vogue among the Bill maher white yuppy crowd to think what Israel demands is trivial. Just ask the people of Palestine, Iraq, Libya, Lebanon and Syria. The shit Israel has put these people through is very trivial, isn’t it.

Posted by: scalawag | Jun 10 2014 7:34 utc | 72

63
Sorry I lack the ‘unifying field theory’ and eloquent writing ability of a bevin.
Russia can’t turn off EUs gas tap, it would bankrupt their country, and initiate US-NATO action as a ‘threat against our allies’ to forcibly retake Crimea and Port of Sevastopol. Therefore all RU can do is threaten to turn off gas to Ukraine, (as Putin has) which would unleash fascist ethic cleansing hell on SE Ukraine’s Russian citizenry. So all Russia has is that feckless threat, and whining plea to World Court, please pay the billions in debt. US taxpayers are already on the hook, Kerry-Koch pledged financial aid to Kiev coup leaders.
Ergo, the gas pipeline is a hammer, but is not a weapon.
But let’s say Putin is forced by national interests to cut off gas to Ukraine, just suppose.
US-NATO would take Crimea. US has nucelar laser bmob carrying B-Zs, and nucelar cruise misisle carrying submraines. Russia’s fleet at Sevastopol would lose their 99-year lease.
With Russia bottled up, the Empire would turn back to Syria, which my war-horse contacts informed me is (or was, or ??) where the billionaire Russian oiligarchs keep their stash.
Why else would there be a ‘color-revolution’ in Syria, not in Jordan or Lebanon? RU $Bs.
But forget any RU $Bs trapped in Damascus. There’s an even bigger piece on the chessboard.
Once Syria falls, as I have repeated every month or so, once Syrian air defenses are taken offline, then Israel will have dark-alley deniable blitzkerig alley to attack Iran at will. Boeing already installed nucelar launch rails on IL F-Bs. Obama provided refueling tankers and nucelar bunker busters! Then the only risk is to US troops remaining in Afghanistan, for which IL-DoD will have some convenient parable ‘it was the Iranian nuclear stockpiles’, then returning troops will all get handed iodine pills, and be put on the VA waiting list.
The old Askenazim war of retribution and payback with Persia is over a thousand years old.

Posted by: chip nikh | Jun 10 2014 7:42 utc | 73

#67
Actually, Nato membership is not a question in the german political system, of course. Even marginalised (from a mainstram point of view) socialists like “die Linke” hardly ever mention that question. No chance of making this a widely discussed topic.
My opinion is, the “west” has its personel already placed within “die Linke”. If they ever happen to come up with election results of 15%+, guys like Dietmar Bartsch (and others, called the “reformers” lol, you know what reform means) will be flushed to the surface and take care of a nice continuous NATO government.
Wagenknecht for one seems like a good debatist, but that’s about it.

Posted by: peter radiator | Jun 10 2014 7:42 utc | 74

@g_h #68:

Liberate humanity? You forgot the irony tag.

No irony intended at all. The first step in leaving the neoliberal regime that is now imposed on pretty much everyone is to switch to a multipolar world, since the force imposing neoliberalism on everyone is the Empire. And the main power currently obstructing the Empire’s plans to maintain its hegemony is Russia.
@scalawag #70:
You are putting words in people’s mouths again. Just because I said that the oppression of the Palestinians is not of paramount concern does not mean that the rape by the Empire of the Arab world in general is something that can be countenanced, by any member of any party at any time.

Posted by: Demian | Jun 10 2014 7:51 utc | 75

@scalawag regarding “censorship”.
I can’t actually guess how serious you’re abuot this, but my experience here is, that b can not view every content in real time, and therefore has a kind of filter that’s holding back posts by certain parameters. If you just sit back and wait a while, the stuff will usually appear after max. some hours. i.e. it hardly happens that things just disappear. have a little patience.

Posted by: peter radiator | Jun 10 2014 7:52 utc | 76

@scalawag, please tell us more fairy tales about “poor palestinians” vs. “evil zionist empire”… you know perfectly well that this is propaganda nonsense for the most part and most of those “Palestinians” are rather recently (in historical terms) migrated arabs, who pretty much destroyed and replaced everything non-islamic there, especially the palestinian christians. Check the percentages of different folks there a century or two ago vs. now.

Posted by: T2015 | Jun 10 2014 8:01 utc | 77

… and don’t even get me started with Mufti from Jerusalem and so on, all well documented history.

Posted by: T2015 | Jun 10 2014 8:02 utc | 78

@T2015 #75:
The Palestinians are a real people. The Jewish people, in contrast, are not.

Posted by: Demian | Jun 10 2014 8:17 utc | 79

I don’t care who’s more “real”, there’s one occupier and one occupied for much too long decades, time to put an end to this first, then you can debate for the next 2 zillion years.

Posted by: zingaro | Jun 10 2014 8:43 utc | 80

Demian, BOTH of them are real people, no doubt about that – I see no robots or ghosts there. How do you definie people anyway?
Your Palestinians from the days of old have very little to do with the recently migrated arabs, who displaced the old Palestinians, who used to be a very mixed bunch. Only a few percent of the current residents are “real” Palestinians, as you would like to define them.
As for being “real” or not, that all used to be Syrian land anyway.

Posted by: T2015 | Jun 10 2014 9:08 utc | 81

@78 that occupier is the british empire, now as then. And it’s not very good for a huge part of Jews either, just ask the orthodox jews or the darker-skinned ones.

Posted by: T2015 | Jun 10 2014 9:09 utc | 82

Not sure but this has been posted:
Crimean speech of Vladimir Putin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTe225bgCKA

Posted by: Anonymous | Jun 10 2014 9:27 utc | 83

Posted by: peter radiator | Jun 10, 2014 3:42:50 AM | 72
Frankly, I don’t think NATO to be of any relevance in Inter-European/Russian conflict. World War II proved that you cannot have winners in an European war – we were all destroyed, Britain/France lost (most of) their empires, the position the losing side was in was not worse/maybe even better than the “winning” side …
Technology has changed a lot since the 1940’s, what took years then, would be days today – there just aren’t that many steps of escalation or deescalation before mutual destruction.
Ukraine is the warfare left, covert destabilization. You don’t need NATO for that.

Posted by: somebody | Jun 10 2014 10:10 utc | 84

Live now: Russian, German, Poland FM talk
http://rt.com/on-air/russia-poland-germany-fms/

Posted by: Anonymous | Jun 10 2014 11:45 utc | 85

b is right……the saker is like a “flag in the wind blowing whatever which way the wind on that day happens to be blowing..it is a good site, but he is subject to error”””” ….I noticed he was wavering a few weeks ago and when one posted a thought that questioned his rea soning ..,,,the cover of moderation was used to not post…..and then lo and behold the thoughts were part of his caveat analysis,,,,but anyway he has corrected himself and should produce astute analysis again,,,but “b” lets face it you are certainly one individual that gives a lot of thought to something you present…

Posted by: tantin | Jun 10 2014 11:48 utc | 86

Clearly US think-tankers believe time matters.
-quote-
What followed is essentially how these “frozen conflicts” were created; that is, de facto states that nobody, or very few people, recognize as independent. The danger [today] is that the longer things go on in southeastern Ukraine with no clear military victory on the Ukrainian side, you are going to continue to see these local entities creating their own governing structures. . . .
Any estimate on how much time Ukraine does have to reassert control before facts on the ground pose a major obstacle?
It can’t continue to fight in any sort of major way for more than a few weeks or a few months, at most. And the difficulty here, too, is that you are dealing with more or less guerilla forces that are in populated areas, where it is very difficult to assert full military control without risking civilian casualties. And, of course, the more the Ukrainian government tries to respond militarily, the more enemies it creates on the ground. It’s a classic counterinsurgency problem.”
–endquote—
http://www.cfr.org/ukraine/troubling-secessionist-models-ukraine/p33071

Posted by: x | Jun 10 2014 12:01 utc | 87

@ somebody: britaqin actually lost pretty much nothing, just switched a few flags on the surface, but the Empire is still going as strong as ever and the land ownership is still unchanged. Also france still rules all those countries in Africa using the CFA-Franc as their currency: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFA-Franc-Zone
Obviously they never really gave up on their former colonies either, see Lybia and Syria.

Posted by: T2015 | Jun 10 2014 12:11 utc | 88

Colleagues:
Time superficially appears to be on Russia’s side. However, unless the Ukrainian invasion of the Donetsk region can be decisively defeated within at most a couple of weeks, the Ukrainian military will have time to stabilise and NATO will have time to beef up their weaponry, perhaps with unstoppable interventionist forces such as high-flying aircraft or drones. In which case, Russian intervention will be impossible because it would be a direct act of war against NATO, and then the Ukrainians would be able to advance behind the usual screen of firepower while the Western media fills everybody’s ears with the usual screens of lies.
If that happens, then expect guerrilla warfare in the Crimea, and quite possibly in western Russia as well. (Incidentally, don’t forget that the Ukraine would be a great base from which to destabilise Byelorussia.) The long-term goal being to overthrow the nationalists in Moscow and reinstall a neoliberal Yeltsin clone. Am I mistaken about that?
How can Russia prosper if its Western borderlands are in flames and Western sanctions start seriously biting? Yes, the Russians could cut off Europe’s gas. That would provide more of a pretext for war, wouldn’t it? And do you seriously believe any European governments care if their old-age-pensioners freeze to death? They’re off the books then, you see . . .

Posted by: The Creator | Jun 10 2014 13:17 utc | 89

Translated by me:
Glazyev: We need to close the sky and hit Ukrainian armored vehicles in Novorossiya
Advisor to the President of the Russian Federation Sergei Glazyev (Сергей Глазьев) at a round table in MIA “Russia Today”, expressed his opinion on the solving the Ukrainian issue. According to him, the U.S. wants to draw Russia into war with Ukraine. At the same time Kiev increases its military power. Glazyev believes that Russia still has a chance to disable the Ukrainian army, but six months from now there is no such chance.
U.S. is “forcefully, persistently and consistently pushing Ukraine to war with Russia under the pretext of the Crimea”, and the goal of Poroshenko is “war on Russia, because different Crimea not return,” said at a roundtable on “The Situation in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions of Ukraine and Russia’s position “Sergei Glazyev.
“The Americans and their proteges Kiev are headed for militarization, the formation of a dictatorial Nazi regime, the full mobilization of the population against Russia … Ukraine has a large army, it is conserved, but the industry is now working in Kharkov at full steem, restoring tanks, armored vehicles. Even today, there are no less than 200 units of armor fighting actively, and every day the amount of armor increases. The same applies to aircraft, “- continued the Advisor to the President of the Russian Federation.
He added that Kiev authorities have used all means at their disposal against the Donbass and “will apply them to the end, to the complete destruction of the resistance.”
“I recall the words of Churchill: “presented with the choice between war and shame, if one chooses shame, one will get war too.” This is a modern war. This does not mean that we need to move our tanks to Kiev, but we can at least stop the genocide of the population” – the news agency quotes Glazev.
Sergei Glazyev proposed to close the sky over the South-East of Ukraine, following the example of the U.S. action in Libya, and incapacitate Ukrainian armored vehicles. According Glazev now it can still be done, but six months later will be too late.
“It’s enough to close the sky and use the same mechanism of suppression of military hardware, which the Americans applied in Libya, which initially covered the sky, from the air then shot armored vehicles, artillery, aviation, and so did the regime with which they fought, unfit for combat . We still have the opportunity to do so, within six months of such a possibility would not be”, – said Sergei Glazyev.
“Look at the dynamics – in December if the Nazis in Kiev had 2 thousand people, in February 20 thousand, in May 50 thousand in the military. By the middle of the summer there will be 100 thousand; in September, 200 thousand by the end of the year they will have armed 500 thousand people,” – Glazyev continued.
“We’ve got the most powerful military machine, oriented against us, lard Nazis ideologically charged against Russia … The ultimate aim of all the action is a war with Russia. We can not keep the peace if we lose Donbass, as the next target – as already advocated – will be Crimea”- he concluded.
Source: http://rusvesna.su/news/1402400512
Also here: http://gordonua.com/news/worldnews/Glazev-Nuzhno-nanesti-udar-po-Ukraine-poka-ee-armiya-ne-okrepla-26485.html

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jun 10 2014 13:26 utc | 90

RANDOM REPLIES…
@somebody (60):
“Green Party and Social Democrats condition any coalition at government level on Die Linke agreeing to NATO membership – which they don’t”
I live in Germany and didn’t know that. Tell me: what’s their position on the EU? I think they’re pro-EU, aren’t they? If so, that’s reason enough not to take them seriously.
@chip nikh (73):
“Russia’s fleet at Sevastopol would lose their 99-year lease.”
You must have pulled a Rip-van-Winkle the last few months, chip. The Russians annexed crimea back in March, so they now own Sevastopol lock, stock & barrel. There’s no more lease from Kiev.

Posted by: Seamus Padraig | Jun 10 2014 14:49 utc | 91

Petri Krohn | Jun 10, 2014 9:26:53 AM | 90
Thanks for the translation.
Glazyev is correct. Kiev has to be Georgia-ised.
Saakashvili & Poroshenko will be warming their tootsies on the ashes – and crying on each others shoulders when NATO’s pusses & wusses do another no-show.
The blowback from tougher US sanctions on ‘Russia’ will send the EU economy past the Point of No Return. The Yankees outsmart themselves – again.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jun 10 2014 15:05 utc | 92

I plenty understand Saker, because I feel exactly as him, but I know (and Saker also knows) that this is only a desperate feeling.
Just because time is on the Russian side, but Slavyansk has no time at all.
Reason is against us. We know.

Posted by: Richelieu | Jun 10 2014 15:07 utc | 93

George Friedman over at Sratfor has a slightly different take on Ukraine. He’s closely hooked up with US intelligence agencies as revealed by Wikileaks and Anonymous, and here’s his opinion (centered on price of oil):
Borderlands: The View Beyond Ukraine
Geopolitical Weekly
Tuesday, June 10, 2014 – 03:00
I traveled between Poland and Azerbaijan during a rare period when the forces that shape Europe appear to be in flux, and most of the countries I visited are re-evaluating their positions. The overwhelming sense was anxiety. Observers from countries such as Poland make little effort to hide it. Those from places such as Turkey, which is larger and not directly in the line of fire, look at Ukraine as an undercurrent rather than the dominant theme. But from Poland to Azerbaijan, I heard two questions: Are the Russians on the move? And what can these countries do to protect themselves?
Moscow is anxious too, and some Russians I spoke to expressed this quite openly. From the Russian point of view, the Europeans and Americans did the one thing they knew Moscow could not live with: They installed a pro-Western government in Kiev. For them, the Western claims of a popular rising in Ukraine are belied by the Western-funded nongovernmental organizations that were critical to sustaining the movement to unseat the government. But that is hardly what matters most. A pro-Western government now controls Ukraine, and if that control holds, the Russian Federation is in danger.
The View to Russia’s West
When the Russians look at a map, this is what they see: The Baltic states are in NATO and Ukraine has aligned with the West. The anti-Western government in Belarus is at risk, and were Minsk to change its loyalties, Russia’s potential enemies will have penetrated almost as deeply toward the Russian core as the Nazis did. This is a comparison I heard Russians make several times. For them, the Great Patriotic War (World War II), which left more than 20 million Soviet dead, is a vivid, living memory, and so is Hitler’s treachery. Russians are not a trusting people and have no reason to be. The same is true of the Central Europeans, the Turks and the Caucasians. Nothing in their past permits them the luxury of assuming the best about anyone.
In recent weeks, three things have become obvious. The first is that the Russians will not invade Ukraine directly. You don’t occupy a country of almost 50 million people with the 50,000 troops Russia has mobilized, and you can never assume that an occupied population will welcome you. The Russians have postured as if they were an overwhelming force, but the threat of American munitions dumps and airstrikes against fuel depots — not something that the Russians can dismiss out of hand — as well as the threat of an insurgency leave the Russians wary.
Equally clear is that no European power can defend the line running from Poland to Romania with the decisive force needed to repel a Russian attack — or even support these countries against Russian pressure and potential subversion. Germany is the key country, and Berlin has made it clear that there are limits to what it is prepared to do in Ukraine and to the steps it is ready to take to defend the eastern flank of NATO and the European Union. Berlin does not want another Cold War. Germany depends on Russian energy and ultimately is satisfied with the status quo. The rest of Europe cannot intervene decisively.
Finally, this means that any support to Europe’s eastern flank must come from the United States. Washington spent the past few weeks indicating its commitment to two key countries: Poland and Romania. President Barack Obama went to Poland while Vice President Joe Biden traveled to Romania, and while both leaders stressed Washington’s absolute commitment to Poland’s and Romania’s national security, they were short on specifics. That lack of detail is not surprising — the United States is still taking stock of the situation. Washington is not ready to outline the nature and extent of its support, and from the American point of view, so long as the Russians are focused on Ukraine, there is still time to do so.
The primary concern for the United States would logically be Poland, the most vulnerable country on the North European Plain. But for now, distance and logistics limit the Russians’ ability to threaten Poland. The stability of the Baltic states is the greatest fear in the region, and the threat there is not Russian invasion, but Russian subversion — a threat that armored divisions cannot address.
More important, a primary commitment to Poland forces any alliance into a defensive posture. That made sense during the Cold War, when Soviet conventional military forces were much larger and better deployed. But Russia today is far weaker, and a more assertive strategy — one that presents Russia with risks while also defending key assets — is more appropriate.
The Emerging Black Sea Strategy
For these reasons, we see the United States beginning to adopt a Black Sea strategy centered on Romania. The Russians held on to Sevastopol because naval capability in the Black Sea is critical. A strategy that enhances Romania’s naval capability and places U.S. aircraft in the region would pose a threat to the Russian fleet. It would also extend defensive capabilities to Georgia and protect the indispensible route for any pipelines running from Azerbaijan. Put simply, a competent rival Black Sea fleet would create problems for Russia, particularly if the Ukrainian regime survives and Crimea is isolated. The visit by U.S. Secretary of Defense Chuck Hagel to Romania indicates the importance U.S. strategic thinkers place on that country.
It is important to note the extensive diplomacy ongoing between the United States and Turkey, as well as meetings between Turkish, Romanian and Polish leaders. The Turks are obviously vulnerable to energy cutoffs, and Ankara does not want to see the Black Sea used as a battleground. At the same time, Turkey would want to be a part of any alliance structure the United States is constructing in the region. In the long run, the Turks have a deep interest in Iraqi and Iranian energy and little trust in Russian intentions.
What we are seeing is regional players toying with new alliance structures. The process is in its infancy, but it is already forcing the Russians to consider their future. An added dimension to this is of course energy. The Russians would appear to have the advantage here: Many of the nations that fear Moscow also depend on it for natural gas. But there is a Russian weakness here as well. Natural gas is a powerful lever, but it is not particularly profitable. Russia’s national budget — indeed, its economy — is built around oil. The chief danger Moscow faces is that it doesn’t control the price of oil. A radical decline in that benchmark would cause the Russian economy to stagger at the very least. While in Poland, Obama deliberately pointed out Russia’s economic problems. He wanted Russian President Vladimir Putin to know that he understands Russia’s weakness.
Deployment of military force, while necessary, is therefore not the core element of the developing Western strategy. Rather, the key move is to take steps to flood the world market with oil — even knowing that implementing this strategy is extremely difficult. It appears likely that once Tehran reaches an agreement with Washington on nuclear weapons, Iran’s oil market will open up, and a major source of oil will flow. Additional Iraqi oil is also moving toward the market, and Libyan production might soon resume. Washington itself wields the most powerful weapon: The United States could reverse its current policy and start exporting oil and liquefied natural gas.
There are undercurrents in this. Bulgaria announced this weekend that it would suspend construction on South Stream, a pipeline the Russians favor, after the country’s prime minister met with three U.S. senators. In the short run, the strategy may be to limit Russia’s control over Europe’s energy; in the long run, the strategy could create the means to destabilize the Russian economy.
None of this is an immediate threat to Russia. It will be years before these and other alternative sources of energy come online — indeed, some may never be available — and there are many constraints, especially in the short term. U.S. companies and oil-producing allies who depend on high oil prices would suffer alongside Russia — an expensive collateral to this policy. But the game here is geopolitical futures. Once major efforts are underway to increase the worldwide availability of oil, those efforts are hard to stop. The Russian strategy must be to diminish the influence of energy on Moscow’s geopolitical imperatives. The Russians know this, and their aim now is to diversify their economy enough within the next 10 years to reduce their vulnerability to fluctuations in energy markets. The threat to Moscow is a surge in supply that cuts into Russian markets and depresses oil prices before Russia completes this effort.
For the United States, the game is not to massively arm Poland, build a Romanian navy or transform the world oil markets. It is simpler than that: Washington wants to show that it is ready to do these things. Such a show of will forces the Russians to recalculate their position now, before the threat becomes a reality. It is not that the United States is bluffing — it is that Washington would prefer to achieve its goals without a major effort, and frankly, without tanking oil prices.
New Calculations
The United States now has a pro-Western government in Ukraine. If that government survives and is strengthened, the Russian position becomes entirely defensive, and the threat Moscow poses is gone. Further, Belarus could destabilize and end up with a pro-Western government. In either case, the Russian position becomes enormously difficult. Its principal weapon — cutting off natural gas to Europe — would then have to take into account Russia’s strategic vulnerability, and possibly even calculate the potential for instability in Russia itself. The future for Russia becomes the one thing no nation wants: uncertain.
Russia now has two choices. The first is to destabilize Ukraine. Success is uncertain, and Moscow cannot predict the U.S. response. Washington’s moves in Poland, Romania and even Turkey have made this option riskier than it was. The fallback for Russia is to neutralize Ukraine. Russia would leave the current government in place so long as Kiev pledges not to join Western-led multinational structures and not to allow any foreign military presence on Ukrainian territory. In return, the Russians would guarantee Ukraine’s territorial integrity and might even reconsider the status of Crimea.
The Western strategy is to create a credible threat to fundamental Russian interests. That means guaranteeing Poland’s defense while setting up offensive military capabilities in Romania. But a linchpin of the strategy is to let Moscow know that the United States is prepared if necessary to stage an all-out attack on the price of oil. The goal is to make Putin rethink the long-term risks he is running by cashing in on Russia’s short-term advantage in natural gas exports.
The Russians must now calculate whether they can destabilize Ukraine enough to displace the pro-Western government. They must also consider the costs of doing so. In the meantime, Moscow is exploring possibilities for the neutralization of Ukraine. Germany will be key, and I suspect the Germans would be happy to see Kiev neutralized if doing so brought an end to the crisis.
From the U.S. point of view, a Western-oriented but neutral Ukraine would create a buffer zone without forcing a confrontation with Russia. What the Americans must calculate is how stable this arrangement is and what the Russians might later do to undermine it. The problem with agreeing to any deal is in its enforcement. You enforce it by being able to threaten the other party with the one thing they don’t want. And the one thing that Russia doesn’t want is anything that threatens its weakened economy. If a control mechanism doesn’t emerge, then Ukraine will remain a battleground in a little cold war.

Posted by: okie farmer | Jun 10 2014 16:56 utc | 94

scalawag @57
“Hopefully they captured a decent amount of ammo to go with.”
If not, I wouldn’t be surprised if they just happened to find some by the side of the road. You never know what might fall of the back of an improperly loaded truck.

Posted by: Yonatan | Jun 10 2014 17:01 utc | 95

Mc Cain came to Bulgaria yesterday and today the government discusses its ending and the date of new elections. this is western democracy.
It is clear westerners want to fight war with russia. But the show must be real. Bulgaria is 100% dependent on russian oil and gas. The economy is non-existent despite government credits. The west trys to sell Bulgaria to the Turks but not to the Russians. No one with brain can approve a policy of self destruction. This is what the usa want, to destroy the country.
The same can be said about Roumania. The fucking USA can come here make war and the go away but the here will have to stay for longer. So the only answer to USA is, Ami go home. This is politely expressed.

Posted by: ZX | Jun 10 2014 18:40 utc | 96

I think this bolsters b’s arguement:
“It is clear to most observers that the West would not be able to defend Ukraine economically from a hostile Russia…The simple fact is that Russia today supports the Ukrainian economy to the tune of at least $5 billion, perhaps as much as $10 billion, each year…
When we talk about subsidies, we usually think of Russia’s ability to offer Ukraine cheap gas — which it does when it wants to. But there are many more ways Russia supports Ukraine, only they are hidden. The main support comes in form of Russian orders to Ukrainian heavy manufacturing enterprises. This part of Ukrainian industry depends almost entirely on demand from Russia. They wouldn’t be able to sell to anyone else…
If the West were somehow able to wrest full control of Ukraine from Russia, could the United States, the other NATO nations, and the EU replace Russia’s role in eastern Ukraine? The IMF, of course, would never countenance supporting these dinosaurs the way the Russians have. So the support would have to come in the way of cash transfers to compensate for lost jobs. How much are we talking about? The only known parallel for the amount of transfer needed is the case of German reunification. The transfer amounted to 2 trillion euros, or $2.76 trillion, over 20 years. If Ukraine has per capita income equal to one-tenth of Germany’s, then a minimum estimate is $276 billion to buy off the east. (In fact, since the population size of eastern Ukraine is larger than East Germany’s, this is an underestimate.) It is unthinkable that the West would pay this amount.” (Ukraine: A Prize Neither Russia Nor the West Can Afford to Win, Brookings)

Posted by: okie farmer | Jun 10 2014 19:24 utc | 97

forgot the link
http://www.brookings.edu/research/articles/2014/05/21-ukraine-prize-russia-west-ukraine-gaddy-ickes

Posted by: okie farmer | Jun 10 2014 19:26 utc | 98

nuland in ukraine again
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G6ddgvnkgA
what a complete psycho.

Posted by: Anonymous | Jun 10 2014 19:45 utc | 99

got the link from Mike Whitney’s piece in Counterpunch:
[…]
The United States is ratcheting up the pressure in order to widen the conflict and force Russian president Vladimir Putin to meet their demands. It’s clear that the threat of sanctions, Poroshenko’s belligerent rhetoric, and the steady buildup of military assets and troops in the region, that Obama and Co. still think they can draw Putin into the conflict and make him look like a dangerous aggressor who can’t be trusted by his EU partners. Fortunately, Putin has not fallen into the trap. He’s resisted the temptation to send in the tanks to put an end to the violence in Donetsk, Lugansk and Slavyansk. This has undermined Washington’s plan to deploy NATO to Russia’s western border, assert control over the “bridgehead” between Europe and Asia, and stop the further economic integration between Russia and the EU. So far, Putin has out-witted his adversaries at every turn, but there are still big challenges ahead, particularly the new threats from Poroshenko.
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/06/10/obamas-attempt-at-intimidating-russia/

Posted by: okie farmer | Jun 10 2014 19:48 utc | 100