Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 07, 2014

Ukraine: Poroshenko's Hope For "Western" Help Is Deluded

This means a lot of trouble for the people in the Ukraine, east AND west:

Ukraine's new president Petro Poroshenko said his country would never give up Crimea and would not compromise on its path towards closer ties with Europe, spelling out a defiant message to Russia in his inaugural speech on Saturday.
...
Poroshenko stressed the need for a united Ukraine and the importance of ending the conflict that threatens to further split the country of 45 million people. He said it would not become a looser federalised state, as advocated by Russia.
...
Poroshenko's speech drew an ovation from guests at a ceremony attended by Lithuanian President Dalia Grybauskaite, U.S. Vice President Joe Biden and senior EU officials.

The Saker calls the speech a declaration of war. That may well be right.

Russia will need to tighten the screws a bit. Be polite at the outside, concede in public but make sure that Kiev will feel more and more pressure through secondary channels.

I doubt that the "west" will take any real risk over Ukraine or even put up enough money to save it from ruin. In the end Ukraine will be alone facing a rather angry bear. If Poroshenko, as it seems, thinks different, he is clearly deluded.

Posted by b on June 7, 2014 at 15:13 UTC | Permalink

Comments
« previous page

@Demian

As for Syria, I think people already know this. And I think you're wrong about people not knowing what a neocon is - well, the people that are interested in politics anyway (and these are the people writing the letters, making the calls, going to the protests, etc, etc...).

I for one was extremely impressed at what I saw online following the gas attacks in Syria. The war machine, on that occasion, hit a brick wall as I have never seen it hit one in my life. And there are many possible explanations - the Russian/Chinese navies and the outraged US/UK opinion being the two most likely explanations. And this gives me hope.

That's all.

And part of this game is based on giving your side hope to get through the shit, so that we can fight the next day. I understand your point, don't get me wrong. There are plenty of reasons to be distraught and to worry. But our side won't get through to tomorrow by focusing just on the bad stuff. We have to keep a certain level of optimism.

Anyway, I know what you mean, but again - there is a peace movement in the US, there is a great deal of consternation over the state of this country which leads people to question all kinds of things. And the lies and the questions are stacking up and I personally think that eventually the foundation will give way.

Chomsky makes the point that there are two superpowers - the United States and world public opinion. And public opinion is becoming mobilized. And we should help do so. If we're just posting here, we are doing our side a disservice. We know - we should help educate.

Posted by: guest77 | Jun 9 2014 1:33 utc | 101

Let me get this straight, I make a criticism about the Saker because of his take on the Russian Communists and suddenly I'm "defending the neocons"? Are you that much of a fucking simpleton?

Posted by: guest77 | Jun 9 2014 1:40 utc | 102

Poroshenko is now calling the killing in the Donbass "unacceptable" and is saying the offensive "must end within a week"..is this new ? Is this bullshit ? Has anybody read this yet, am I behind the curve on this one?

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/735342

Posted by: Marc | Jun 9 2014 1:42 utc | 103

@Demian - does he really claim to be Pragma? Because I was certain he used to post here and got banned a couple of years ago. I guess he could have changed his name, but his posts never had the same spirit of Pragma's, though I could be wrong (in which case, I owe Rowan an apology...).

Posted by: guest77 | Jun 9 2014 1:42 utc | 104

Posted by: crone | Jun 8, 2014 9:05:25 PM | 99

"@98

why don't you say that on his blog, instead of coming here and talking behind his back?

Frankly, many of us are "all over the place" concerned about what the crazy neo-con occupied USG is going to do next. But then you're here to defend that, aren't you?"

Well said.

Posted by: scalawag | Jun 9 2014 2:00 utc | 105

Posted by: Marc | Jun 8, 2014 9:42:00 PM | 103

"Poroshenko is now calling the killing in the Donbass "unacceptable" and is saying the offensive "must end within a week"..is this new ? Is this bullshit ?"

I would not put much into the words the guy uses. He stressed:

"That is why we must first of all resume the work of the state border to guarantee security to each citizen of Ukraine who lives in Donbass [a coal-bearing area in Ukraine’s east, incorporates the Donetsk region], regardless of political views he or she might have,”

IE: removing the ability of the independent republics of getting needed humanitarian supplies, which the bandera nazis cut off, and getting the tools and help they need to remain independent. The killing he says must stop is probably the "killing" portrayed by Ukrainian/western propaganda as "bad" rebels killing the locals and killing angelic right sector patriots. I don't think he was refering to the killing being done by the west's nazis and mercs.

Posted by: scalawag | Jun 9 2014 2:13 utc | 106

@Marc #103:

It's hard what to know what to make of that. It's most likely that what Poroshenko means by ending hostilities is that the rebels unconditionally surrender without Kiev conceding anything. What Strelkov takes Poroshinko to mean by hostilities ending within a week is that the junta will launch an all-out assault of mass destruction.

@guest77 #101:

I forgot about the aborted attack on Syria. That might have been a special case though, since it was such an obvious replay of Bush the Lesser lying us into war in Iraq. What was noticeable to me at the time is that Obama turned out to be more incompetent than Bush; at least Bush got a "coalition of the willing", whereas Obama couldn't even get the UK on board.

@#104:

What he said was that I knew that he got banned, and that I was one of the "zio-queens" who "ganged up" on Kalithea. You can see his post in this thread. Since Mr. Pragma and Kalithea got banned at the same time, I took that to be an implicit claim that he is Mr. Pragma.

I wasn't here two years ago, so I don't know if вот так got banned here then, but I agree that the вот так at the Saker does not have the same spirit as Pragma.

My main problem with that place is that God gets mentioned way too often for my taste. You never see that at Russian blogs, BTW. (If they go on about Orthodoxy, it will be in Slavophile, not religious, terms.)

Posted by: Demian | Jun 9 2014 2:25 utc | 107

Here is some fun history: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Fascist_Party

A Russian fascist party made up of White exiles under Japanese control - swastikas and all. Though the Japanese never put them to real use, by the end of the war the leader Konstantin Rodzaevsky decided that Stalin was a great leader and wanted to return. He was invited back and told he'd be put in charge of a newspaper - and then was promptly executed on his arrival.

Stalin didn't want any flattery from a nazi I guess. Go figure.

........

Oh scalawag, that hurts. Ow ow ow.

Fuck you, you insecure keyboard jockey "leftist". Stick to your copy-pasta. That's at least valuable around here.

Posted by: guest77 | Jun 9 2014 2:32 utc | 108

@Demian: but what was interesting was that Tea Party folks seemed to get the whole idea right - that here we were fighting the whole GWOT against al Qaeda and then supporting them in Syria. Though they too I think were driven by the plight of the Christians there. The Iraq flashbacks were the most important aspect though, no doubt about it.

...

Yeah, I don't know. Bot Tak- I think he got banned for excessive flame warring on... Hoarsewhisperer (?).

I guess it could be Pragma. I don't know. But... I think he was over there before, when Pragma was still here. We could check that I suppose. In any case, I know there was a Bot Tak here, so unless he changed his name then changed it back - but I have no idea. Nor, really does it matter much except that it would be pretty slimy for someone to claim to be Pragma.

Posted by: guest77 | Jun 9 2014 2:40 utc | 109

Another post with a link to a Russian site censored by MoA. Let's try it again, shall we, children.

Russia has everything to tightly lock the airspace of Ukraine (video)

I posted this because a lot of talk now is about Russia imposing a no-fly zone over the Ukraine. The Russians could easily do this and prevent entirely the junta's aircraft from operating. But I don't see a point to it right now. The bandera nazi air force is about as effective as the Confederate Air force (based in Texass, look them up ;) ). The bandera af does attack the republics, but the damage they do is relatively minor, and they suffer serious unsustainable loses in doing so. All the republics need to neuter the air threat is more SA weaponry, which they are still short of.

The major threat against the republics is long range artillery. A no-fly zone that targets only aircraft isn't going to stop the shelling of civilians. This shelling is their worst problem now. The second worse problem is the bandera troops massed outside the cities and towns. These are not very effective, but they seriously outnumber the self defense forces of the republics to the extent those self-defense forces cant attack them without prohibitive loses. So it's a stalemate, with civilians getting shelled. Russia can covertly give the republics' forces the means to break that stalemate and drive the nazis from their territory, drive them to the Polish border even. In my opinion, this would be far more helpful than a no-fly zone, and would not be falling into the west's laid trap.

Posted by: scalawag | Jun 9 2014 2:50 utc | 110

I see Russia and friendly neighbours have conducted a nuclear attack simulation/drill very recently.

They've also done what, 250 military exercises within the last six months. The military exercise as intimidation tactic is normal US behaviour.

I think Putin's cabinet has taken a leaf from the German Weimar reforms (on which the Nazi military relied, though it wasn't their idea), made sure everyone is competent, trained and ready, and allow them lots of scope for activity, with broadly-defined outcomes as commands, rather than steps for achieving outcomes. What is unsettling (and I can empathise with Saker), is that Russia has stopped broadcasting information about its intentions. Those who choose to be ignorant about Donetsk and Lughansk, are useful idiots to the other side, but otherwise irrelevant. This behaviour (media silence) is also expected in a betrayal, though the preparations undertaken suggest that betrayal isn't being considered. But keep in mind that Russian statecraft would prefer a "united" (for legal purposes) Ukraine, in the face of NATO et alia---think of the Biafran situation after the war ended---a 'legitimized' figure like Obasanjo could stop the violence, and have leeway to attack the neonazis. And with the neonazis in the east, cleaning up the Maidan shouldn't be too hard, and separatist/federalist fighters could easily be incorporated into a Ukrainian army for mop-up.

If instead Poroshenko betrays his promises, a no-fly zone or similar is doable, coupled with a quick spin of a valve and turning off of pumps. Let's see how well reverse flow works :)

My prediction: two or three more opportunities for diplomacy, then another big strike, followed by more diplomacy-baiting with preparation. Alternative: Allow Poroshenko a face-saving, with negotiations with the rebels, with concessions extracted wrt NATO. Don't forget that SBU is useless---Russia may make use of the NATO exercises for spying, and I'd imagine that they'd keep some friendlies in the Ukrainian military.

Also, notice the diplomatic and military activities---open skies observations over Latvia and Lithuania the past week (16 Russian Open Skies flights in the year so far), after Russia was banned from a missile defence conference the week before. Legal claims were also made. Meanwhile western European military are making friendly (or spying?) visits to Siberian military units.

Recall what I said on a previous thread (re Palestine)---push for legal claims, so that the legal institutions can destroy themselves---every regime pushes pretend rule of law, but none believe it. The Russian state is playing a game with the propaganda foundations of international law. If activists in western countries can make the knowledge of the criminality of the Ukrainian government and its sponsors---I'll say in this regard that it sadly is not common knowledge in the west that the Iraq sanctions were deliberately genocidal, and it is commonly thought that Saddam Hussein was the cause of the suffering in the sanctions---then Russia can act by taking the case to one of the international legal bodies, and cause the next level of legal farce, which will make European politicians twitchy in their cages.

As to Europe. Get politicians to confess (rather than have tabloids fish out their dirty secrets) their bad behavior US style. That will close lots of opportunities, and people who put their dirty laundry in public can be far harder to manipulate. And do call the courts out on their on-again-off-again precedent systems.

Posted by: Johan Meyer | Jun 9 2014 2:51 utc | 111

Interesting. It wasn't the link that the censor-bot at MoA flagged (original posting of "Posted by: scalawag | Jun 8, 2014 10:50:59 PM | 110"), but the quoted contents of the article. What exactly in that article was so upsetting, I wonder. It looked pretty uncontroversial and bland to me. But then, western ideas of what to censor have always been rather baffling and arbitrary to people outside their tribe.

Posted by: scalawag | Jun 9 2014 2:56 utc | 112

The important thing to realize about the war criminal actions of the US over the last 50 years is that no matter how brazen, amoral and inhumane their actions are they nearly ALWAYS stick to the narrative script.

The "Cold War" narrative allowed the US war criminals to murder millions of people over decades.

The GWOT narrative allowed the US war criminals to kill millions more.

However, it's too early in the "Cold War: Part Deux" narrative roll-out for there to be any thought of "first strike" nuking and all that horseshit. The US PTB are fucking psychotic but they're survivalists first. This new narrative doesn't have the traction yet and barring a major - possibly nuclear - false flag event they're just talking crazy shit.

For example, Manchurian McCain was singing "bomb bomb bomb Iran" in 2007 at a time when he any person with a fucking sliver of political awareness - esp. if they were running for POTUS - would have avoided mentioning the launching of yet ANOTHER blatantly illegal aggressive campaign so I wouldn't worry about what the US leaders say now. Those of you outside the US are maybe just realizing that the US war criminals have NEVER stopped going on record with crazy ass statement after crazy ass statement. I can assure you that the quotidian ramblings of these crazy fuckers never ends it just often does not hit the radar of international observers.

I despise the US elite but I don't think they're fucking idiots. The best-rewarded of them just play idiot on TV. It's not that any of them are afraid of being voted out of office - chortle - it's that they're afraid of missing out on cashing in on more bloody lucre that keeps them in line.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Jun 9 2014 3:32 utc | 113

In response to what Noirette wrote, @ 58, I rather hope that what Putin was showing at the D-Day commemoration, was indeed evidence of some strain. Under these circumstances, I would guess that only the psychopaths, working in the White House, and at State, and those of certain military rank, are without worry, and not sweating, at this point.

One political analyst I read, suggested that Putin is, at some point, counting on common sense to prevail, among the governments of Western Europe. Not on political grounds alone, but because of economic ties with Russia, as well. There is winter to come, with requirements of Russia's gas for home heating and industry. What is in the long term interest of Europe, then? And yet, if Putin counts on common sense, he could surely have found little comfort during the ceremonies, next to the beaches of Normandy.

Poroshenko has decided to ride on the back of the fascist tiger. His threats against the Crimea should not be brushed off as bravado or cynical bloviation. But how does he expect to get away with a threat against what is now part of Russia? The Russian leadership will not put themselves in position to be surprised, or caught by a surprise attack,--nor are they likely to have let their guard down, since the showing of naval forces, during the Syrian crisis.

It's unlikely that the Russian president will be goaded into making a mistake; but nonetheless, with the leaders who have allowed this climate of crisis to get worse, we are but one mistake away from the unthinkable.

We are, as of this moment, living in a summer that is eerily reminiscent of that summer of 1914.

Posted by: Copeland | Jun 9 2014 3:54 utc | 114

Very many interesting facts in this article, including all the behind the scenes goings on with various pipelines, including the Southstream derailment in Bulgaria.

http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2014/06/08/the-new-great-game-round-up-june-8-2014/

An eye-catching bit:

Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov hit the nail on the head this week when he accused the United States of doing everything to prevent an alliance between Russia and the EU. Unfortunately, Washington can count on the top officials in the EU to go along with it and act against European interests. This will have dire consequences for Europe sooner rather than later. Russia’s eastern energy pivot is just beginning and if the country becomes a swing natural gas supplier between Europe and Asia, the EU will be on the losing end. When asked about the next major deal between Russia and China, Keun-Wook Paik, an expert on Sino-Russian energy issues and a fellow at Chatham House, put it bluntly: “If it materializes, it will be a dream situation for Russia but will be a nightmare for Europe.” Brussels would be well-advised to reconsider its Cold War policies before it is too late: - See more at: http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2014/06/08/the-new-great-game-round-up-june-8-2014/#sthash.DEiAITPm.dpuf

Posted by: Artim | Jun 9 2014 4:02 utc | 115

Russian Spring

Slavyansk.

Strelkov:

About Cossacks: In the ranks of our combatants Cossacks are fairly common. But! No single “purely Cossack” unit or platoon. This is because, if such a unit forms under conditions of irregular war, formerly disciplined and battle worthy combatants turn into marauders and cowards.

Why is that? It is a psychology of sort of “exceptionalism”: a “cossacking” combatant, all of the sudden, regards himself as “something superior to others”. For he is “superior”, he is “precious” and demands “distinction”. That is – he may not build trenches – he is “Cossack-warrior”. Someone else digs trenches. No trenches, under fire/attack, he “Cossack-warrior”, in first place, must “preserve himself for later”, the position can be given up – nothing to worry.

Having given-up once, why stop on petty matters? It turns out that from “Red Liman” it is okay to run until “Antratsit”.

The remedy for “Cossack’s disease” is only one: demand as from anyone else, irrespective to condescendence, stripes or statements “I am Cossack! I have fought!” And have means to subdue those who refuse to comprehend realities.

The problem though, when Cossacks are a lot, they are aggressive and uncontrollable. And turn into a band of “Bat`ko Angel”(kingpin “Angel”)

Comment: Strelkov was not on-line today. His deputy Beresin posted a video imploring “Slavyansk” male population to volunteer for non-combatant help.

Posted by: Fete | Jun 9 2014 4:03 utc | 116

Re US Air Force sends 2 B-2 to UK.
Posted by: oldskeptic | Jun 8, 2014 6:22:23 PM | 90

This is pure PR theatre. The B-2 was a gift from US taxpayers to the M-IC and doesn't even qualify as an aircraft. It was designed without a vertical stabiliser (tail fin) in the days when Stealth architecture was the flavour-of-the-month. The B-2 can't be used against targets with detection/defense capability because it is incapable of evasive manoevres due to the risk of losing control. If control were to be lost, all the computing power on earth wouldn't save it. The B-2 is, literally, a (very expensive) accident waiting to happen.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jun 9 2014 4:29 utc | 117

B-52's have an almost unique radar signature so a B-52 would attract an armed-to-the-teeth Russian fighter escort before it got within sniffing distance of a target Russia wanted to protect.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jun 9 2014 4:47 utc | 118

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jun 9, 2014 12:29:23 AM | 117

"The B-2 is, literally, a (very expensive) accident waiting to happen."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go2Ntc9tqZ8

Posted by: scalawag | Jun 9 2014 4:53 utc | 119

@ 119. Yep, ideal flying conditions but the B-2 fell out of the sky anyway. One can't help wondering if the USAF flew them to the UK or sent them off as deck cargo - just to be on the safe side...

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jun 9 2014 5:13 utc | 120

A new very ominous aspect of the western fascist plan for the Ukraine has now emerged that I have not seen referenced to before (and another post ripe for MoA censorship):

LNR: Kiev has prepared a plan for the resettlement of residents from the West to the East

"The leadership of the Luhansk national Republic (LNR) became aware of plans resettlement to the East of residents of Western Ukraine, reported on Sunday representative counterintelligence LNR.

"The counterintelligence Department of the Army Lugansk people's Republic received classified information from a reliable source in the government (Arseniy) Yatseniuk. The Ukrainian Cabinet of Ministers with the direct participation of American specialists prepared a secret program, which started already in November of this year", - the interlocutor has told RIA of "news".

He explained that the essence of the program is to "organize the gradual resettlement of 250 thousand residents of Western Ukraine, especially from villages and small settlements, to the South-East. First of all, in Donetsk, Lugansk and Nikolaev region".

The program provides the transfer of the property of displaced persons apartments, private houses and land plots "destroyed and driven out of these areas" militias and members of their families. "There is financial support in the amount of 25 UAH for migrant family," told the representative of counterintelligence."

So the Americans "helped" the junta nazis develop a plan to move 250k western Ukrainians into the SE. These "immigrants" will get the properties of the people forced out of the regions by the current nazi military assault.

What this means is that these western nazi atrocities are part of a deliberate plan to drive out people in the east, using terror, so bandera nazi parasites from the west can take their place there. Where have we seen such a "cunning plan" of ethnic cleansing done before? Palestine. Same tactic, use terror to drive out the local population so the "master race" can then be moved in to take their place. If you look at how the western fascists have consistently worked to antagonize and terrorize the people of the SE, this makes it clear why. They've been working towards ethnic cleansing and domination on the Israeli model.

Posted by: scalawag | Jun 9 2014 5:54 utc | 121

Marc | Jun 8, 2014 9:42:00 PM | 103

That is an interesting link to the itar-tass story. I find it very encouraging and is consistent with my feeling that Poroshenko is going to try to end the fighting in eastern Ukraine and come to some kind of political settlement with the Russians. He said almost the complete opposite yesterday so which Poro are we to believe?

My reasons for being optimistic are pretty weak but they are based on the following reasoning. Let us assume that Poro genuinely wanted a peaceful resolution. This is something that the neo-nazi forces would vigorously and, if given the opportunity, violently oppose. Hence, Poro has to act very cautiously. However, I believe he has a mandate to move against the neo-nazi groups given how thoroughly they were trounced in the recent election. I suspect that a majority of even the most nationalistic Ukrainians might be starting to be concerned that all out civil war is not in their interests. This whole scenario that I am imagining might blow up completely but we should know in a few weeks if this will work.

Obama and Kerry are unlikely to work hard to help out in this process, but I do not think it in their nor in America's interest to see the civil war continue. Other than the neocon fanatics there is not much support for war in the other power centers inside the US. The admin will follow along behind the leadership of Putin and other EU leaders.

Posted by: ToivoS | Jun 9 2014 7:17 utc | 122

Thank you neretva'43 at #96!

I have finally found out why Finnish billionaire Gennady Timchenko was put on the US sanctions list. It has nothing to do with "being friends with Putin" or the argument with Helsingin Sanomat over the sale of Helsinki "Hartwall" Arena. His company Stroytransgaz as the builder of the Bulgarian land section of the South Stream gas pipeline!

Bulgaria halts South Stream ‘pending consultations with EU’ –The Sofia Globe, June 8, 2014

Local media said that it had become clear that the three US senators – John McCain, Ron Johnson and Christopher Murphy – had expressed objections to the choice of Stroytransgaz as the builder of the Bulgarian land section of the South Stream gas pipeline, given that the company’s owner Gennady Timchenko, was subject to US sanctions because of Moscow’s illegal annexation of Crimea.

As an EU citizen I am deeply offended by Senator John McCain's interference in internal EU decisions. From when is it his duty to dictate European Union law to EU member states? This meddling by Americans on South Stream in Bulgaria reveals the true face of the US Empire: NATO in Europe is nothing but a form of military occupation!

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jun 9 2014 7:20 utc | 123

Posted by: scalawag | Jun 9, 2014 1:54:27 AM | 121

It's not as clear-cut as it seems. It's a bit too Hopey Changey to work. Jewish-occupied Palestine has overwhelming military/security superiority over systematically-disarmed Palestinians. So any 'unfriendlies' wishfully thinking of migrating to the East can't possibly have their safety/security guaranteed by the 2nd-rate (at best) Kiev forces.
Only Useful (sacrificial) Idiots would take up such an offer.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jun 9 2014 7:49 utc | 124

Petri Krohn

Is there any statement by Gennady himself on this?

Posted by: Anonymous | Jun 9 2014 8:01 utc | 125

@123: What do you expect? McCain is the son of a traitor.

Posted by: g_h | Jun 9 2014 8:43 utc | 126

Re #123 "As an EU citizen I am deeply offended ".

Get prepared to be even more offended when you have gas (and quite possible fuel) rationing this winter. And at least one or two EU countries under marshall law.

I repeat, over and over again. The US owns, totally the UK/EU political, military/national security/etc UK & EU elite.

Their first, totally first, loyalty is to the US (yes they are traitors by the laws of their own lands). Above their own people, their own economies, their own national security interests. If you are in Germany, trust me your own intelligence, counter intelligence systems are totally dedicated to finding out anti-US people, first and foremast. UK is a given... of course, has been since Churchill (who was half American...everyone forgets that fact).

The US is, has been, will ever be, useless at war, but it is genius class at subverting elites. By bribery, by blackmail(the real reason for the NSA), by promises, etc. I can give you chapter and verse about the Austrlian politicans, military, etc people who have been totally bought and are controlled by the US and would cut the throat of any Australian at the command of the US.

The true 'fifth column' among us.

And Merkal will absolutely totally kill the German economy to meet US demands on the coming massive sanctions. No ifs or buts about that... enjoy your cold winter.

As for the 'people' irrelevant... In Germany the only chance is the business elites, who unusually haven't been totaly bought over yet. But don't bet on them. The US will 'have a chat' and tell them about all the investigations (backed by their own Govt) they will do, the 'findings' that they are dealing with 'terrosists' (etc) and the loss of business and long jail time they will get (in the US no less)... and of course they will cave.. and the US will be totally backed up by the German Govt in this.

So the only possible non 'poodle' in the EU, German business, is irrelevent in the end (despite Putin's hopes).

And if you don't like it, the US will simply tell your Govts to squash it... and they will do it, when the US tells them to do it... they will lock you up and/or kill you. Yes, your miltary, whether it be Dutch, British, German, French...whatever, will shoot you to defend 'America'.

Actually the US have been quite brillient at this, to give them credit. The Russians, long held as the 'Gold Standard' at subversion in the past, must look on this with awe. Even in their wildest dreams, at the height of the KGB's power, they never even got close to this level of 'influence' and control.

As a German, as a thought experiment, listen to evetything Merkal says...and pick the things she has to say that she has been handed to by the US Embassy .. a few hours before. If you are smart you can pick it up.

Must feel sorry for her in some ways (not many though) she knows she is surrounded by traitors and toally bugged by German (passed onto the US) 'intelligence'. She can trust no one. She doesn't even know if her bodyguard is not a US agent (probably is).

Putin made a statement a while ago, about that fear. That he couldn't talk openly to any other 'leaders' because they were so scared and didn't trust their own 'security'. Correct.. they all all owned by the US.

Posted by: OldSkeptic | Jun 9 2014 8:57 utc | 127

Anon @85

Good choice! Including Henri-Levy would make a dream team. I propose adding Tony Blair as international peace process representative. They've gotta spend all that lovely IMF loot to keep it out of the hands of the Uke peons.

Posted by: Yonatan | Jun 9 2014 9:26 utc | 128

@ 87 Guest77 Try building South Stream through Greece

Not so easy...

"Karamanlis death plot and phone tapping scandal linked"

"A magistrate has ordered the merger of the investigations into the alleged assassination threat against former prime minister Kostas Karamanlis and the wire-tapping scandal against his government. Dimitris Foukas says that there is common ground between the cases, and that wire tapping scandal – which came to light in 2005 – continued until 2007, when the Karamanlis government was negotiating the South Stream pipeline project to bring Russian natural gas to Europe...."

http://www.enetenglish.gr/?i=news.en.article&id=519

Posted by: Headache | Jun 9 2014 9:26 utc | 129

Interview with Le pen.

Marine Le Pen: EU political world indifferent to people dying in eastern Ukraine
http://rt.com/shows/sophieco/164660-europe-politicans-victims-ukraine/

Posted by: Anonymous | Jun 9 2014 10:24 utc | 130

re. my previous comment. Yes Putin was angry. In a white-faced, pinched lips way, though neither are strongly apparent (as they might be for ex. in a boss of a small co. who ‘loses it’ but refrains from shouting, hitting, and throwing his coffee at someone) because his public persona is well controlled in the proper way. He has his ‘style’, an appropriate one for a head of State, his speech is excellent too (though the irony is often I suppose missed) - and that is a style that does not evacuate emotion. The emotion is there, because, while he is under rigorous self-control, and perhaps wily or crafty, he is genuine. I saw (imho) that underlying fear, nerves, high strain, whatever. Anger and fear are emotions that are close in many ways.

Compare with Obama who spouts nonsense blithely, without a care in the world, and who only shows a little halting or tiny stress when there’s no teleprompter and he is seeking for the ‘right words!’

Posted by: Noirette | Jun 9 2014 11:32 utc | 131

The closer Russia and China and various countries get to trading in currencies other than the USD, the more hysterical the U.S. leadership and its puppet states become. The Russia-China gas deal has unhinged the neocons and U.S. oligarchs, and of course, Obama has cast his lot with those two groups. Now oligarachs, imo, are pretty stupid (or disinterested) when it comes to foreign policy and neocons are downright unable to comprehend a multipolar world. How can we expect anything rational coming out of this administration when Obama allies with these fanatics? We can't. They'll just keep upping the ante. Hopefully, they'll be too blind with hubris and belligerence to notice right up until the dollar implodes, their clout is gone, and they start to run like roaches when the lights are turned on. I hope, for our sakes, that Russia, China, and their allies are brainstorming on how to collapse the empire without war.

Posted by: madisolation | Jun 9 2014 12:03 utc | 132

Putin has a black belt in martial arts. A poker face is part of the assessment. i.e. no poker face, no black belt. If he's conveying something then he's doing so very deliberately. Putin's got them snookered. They know it and he knows they know.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jun 9 2014 12:14 utc | 133

Posted by: Tom | Jun 8, 2014 5:50:29 AM | 51

You are correct, there is a deal - well, kind of.

This is an opportunity, we hope, for Russia, the U.S. and others, all to come together in an effort to try to make a Ukraine that is strong economically, whose sovereignty is respected, whose independence is respected but clearly is not a pawn in a tug-of-war between other nations," Kerry said.

Ukraine, he added, should "rather [be] an independent sovereign country with the integrity of its borders and people able to act as a bridge between East and West, with trade and involvement with all parties, that is our hope," he said. "We hope that with Russia, together we have the ability to be able to find a way to cooperate on how to make this happen," Kerry continued. "That is our hope. There obviously are difficulties, we understand that. That is why we are meeting today to talk about them."

Kerry spoke first. Lavrov appeared taken aback by the secretary's statement.

But Lavrov offered his own brief comments in English, ending with a clear jab at U.S. policies in Iraq, Libya and Syria.

"I can only subscribe to what the secretary just said," Lavrov said. "We would like to see Ukraine peaceful, stable. A place for all those who live in Ukraine ... to be feeling equal, respected, and listened to, living in peace being a bridge, not being a pawn."

"The Russian-American agenda is much broader than just Ukraine," Lavrov added. "We would like to see other countries like Iraq, Libya, Syria, many others also to be in peace, not to be used as a pawn."

Posted by: somebody | Jun 9 2014 12:40 utc | 134

@Demian

Demian, bot tak is not pragma. Bot tak got banned here before Pragma did.

Posted by: Massinissa | Jun 9 2014 13:24 utc | 135

@104

Bot tak has never claimed to be Pragma. Its demians little conspiracy theory that theyre the same person. But theyre not. What you remember is the truth.

Posted by: Massinissa | Jun 9 2014 13:25 utc | 136

@107

Youre imagining wrong. Hes not Pragma.

If you didnt notice, Kalithea posts on MoA regularly. Like alot. So Bot Tak and Kalithea are acquaintances.

Even if he WAS pragma, which hes not, what does it matter?

Posted by: Massinissa | Jun 9 2014 13:27 utc | 137

@121

Am I the only one who thinks of Israel when reading this?

Because its the same playbook.

Posted by: Massinissa | Jun 9 2014 13:33 utc | 138

@138
Sure, or Lebensraum, or Rwanda ('mass urbanisation' without a corresponding urban economy, upon Kagame coming to power---the Hutu majority was cleansed from the rural areas).

Posted by: Johan Meyer | Jun 9 2014 15:11 utc | 139

John Kerry Caught In Another War-Promoting Lie
Daniel McAdams


We all remember Secretary of State John Kerry lying through this teeth last summer, when he swore that US intelligence reports proving that Syria used chemical weapons in Ghouta were “as clear as they are compelling.” However, the US administration never provided any proof of Syria government responsibility and now we know why: there was none.

Kerry was all bluster and bluff, and when that became obvious his boss was forced to back down from plans to bomb Syria.

Well Kerry is back at it again. Bluster and bluff about “proof” while simultaneously desperately seeking evidence.

Credit Moon of Alabama blog for noticing this one:

Here is John Kerry on April 8, swearing that the Russians were behind the unrest in eastern Ukraine:

“No one should be fooled — and believe me, no one is fooled — by what could potentially be a contrived pretext for military intervention just as we saw in Crimea. It is clear that Russian special forces and agents have been the catalysts behind the chaos of the last 24 hours.”

Here is John Kerry two months later meeting with newly-elected Petro Poroshenko in Ukraine:

Secretary of State John Kerry also spent time talking with Mr. Poroshenko, privately urging him to provide evidence of Russian involvement with separatists with which to confront Russian officials.

John Kerry is a liar.

Posted by: Virgile | Jun 9 2014 15:29 utc | 140

ot - kremlin stooge.. someone might have linked to it already.. http://marknesop.wordpress.com/2014/06/07/wanted-research-assistant-must-write-braille-apply-to-u-s-department-of-state/#more-2961

Posted by: james | Jun 9 2014 16:30 utc | 141

Colonel Cassad: Slavyansk under fire (in Russian)

In Slavyansk, in the day goes on the quite senseless bombardment of the city centre with large caliber artillery. Principally civilian targets are hit, suggesting that civilian victims are desirable, otherwise there is no military reason to fire on areas with high-rise buildings, where there are no militia positions. DND Militia suffer only episodic losses which produce little influence on the defence system of the city, so the brunt of such terrorist attacks just goes on civilians. Attempts to intimidate the local population, by destruction, is in the spirit of the practice of the Nazis of WW II times, so that their modern Ukrainian imitators do not differ from them, except that the junta's opportunities for the destruction of the Ukrainian people are just slightly less. In general, what is happening is a war crime that is broadcast live, which shows the connivance of the so-called "world community".

The only thing that can put a stop to all this is militias switching to an attack (for which they obviously do not have enough forces) or the introduction of no-fly zones; what is lacking is the political will. So the militia in Slavyansk still have to sit in the defense and residents to hide in bomb shelters, waiting for changes in the strategic situation.

On this subject Strelkov has already quite clearly expressed himself:

Reinforcements in Slavyansk there are NOT. And, apparently, they are not planned. The enemy's tanks sweep through the roads. After a hard shelling of the city centre, around - the broken glass and debris from trees. There are a number of fires. On the one hand, all right - we should create mobile reserves and protect the rest of the territory of Novorossia. On the other, if Slavyansk is not helped, all those mountains of shells that are now falling on us, will fall on other cities of Donetsk and Lugansk region. And it's not the case that the "rear guard", entrenched in Donetsk will stop the enemy like our troops do. So far, examples are directly of the opposite.

In any case, at resisting the regular army some 100 "special forces" or even 1000 (whether they are three times Alfa-Rambos") will fail. Grief counselors in the Kremlin led the situation to the moment when an unavoidable dilemma arose: either Novorossia will be fully surrendered, or one must FIGHT for it in full force. There is no longer a third option; all other options were successfully "chewed over by spineless creatures" over the past month and a half.

Of course, to us, the defenders of Slavyansk, the second option seems to be the only one possible - on it depend the lives of our soldiers and their families and relatives. But Moscow has a different opinion. Judging by the "half-steps", "the supply of spineless chewing creatures is far from being exhausted"

https://vk.com/strelkov_info?w=wall-57424472_1818 - zinc

Actually Stlerkov expressed about the same dilemma of two solutions that I wrote about http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1618496.html 2 days ago.
The situation is developing in such a way that, whether it wants to or not, the Kremlin in a very short time will have to make a choice and to reap the consequences of that choice - either pour out [give up] Novorossia, or perform in some form or other a military intervention. The chairs are beginning to grow further apart.

Posted by: Demian | Jun 9 2014 18:52 utc | 142

Massinissa @138

Bingo!

Posted by: Yonatan | Jun 9 2014 18:59 utc | 143

james @141

Executive summary

"Just so there’s no doubt where I want to go with this, Jen Psaki was a moron with a room-temperature IQ who was probably hauled offstage with that big hook they used to use on “The Gong Show” for her numerous sidesplitting gaffes and visible flounderings. But Marie Harf makes her look like Aristotle; Stephen Hawking with red hair and breasts."

Posted by: Yonatan | Jun 9 2014 19:34 utc | 144

@144 - yonatan - i liked that line too! the kremlin stooge is an engaging writer!

Posted by: james | Jun 9 2014 21:43 utc | 145

These Psychopaths that are now in Office Just Bombed Civilians with Phosphorous Bombs and USA and Eu wish to Support this Scum? Scum that would use such weapons on there so called own people no wonder East and Crimea want nothing to do with these Maniacs?
What of the Attrocities carried out inside Odessa do these victims ever get Justice?
Who in their right minds would want such a Barbaric Bunch of Fascists in EU Hitler was enough History repeating eh?

Posted by: Skip | Jun 13 2014 13:33 utc | 146

« previous page

The comments to this entry are closed.