Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 16, 2014

Ukraine: Who Wages The Pipeline War?

So who are these "terrorists" that blew up a gas pipeline in west Ukraine?

The Head of Ivano-Frankivsk regional state administration Andriy Trotsenko told there were three explosions at the international high pressure gas pipeline Urengoy–Pomary–Uzhgorod in Nebyliv village, Ivano-Frankivsk region.

As Radio Free Europe informs, Trotsenko has told all three explosions were similar, "the appropriate explosive devices were planted into the ground just below the pipeline”. In particular, the remnants of remote-controlled explosive device were found at the scene near Limnytsya River.

The Ivano-Frankivsk Prosecutor's office opened a criminal proceeding upon the explosion at international pipeline. The provisional crime determination is "terrorist attack".

The coup government in Kiev is waging a civil war against federalists in east Ukraine. It calls that war, in which it uses heavy weapons against civilians, an "anti-terrorist operation".

But are those "terrorist" the same "terrorists" that blew up the gas line in west-Ukraine? The coup government would likely be happy if the world starts to believe such. But there are other people, very different from the federalists, who had threatened to blow up these lines:

The leader of the far-right Ukrainian nationalist Pravy Sektor (Right Sector) party has reportedly threatened to attack Russia's lucrative gas pipeline which travels through Ukraine to prevent the Kremlin from sparking a "Third World War".
The pipeline in question, the Trans-Siberian Pipeline, supplies Europe with the majority of its gas imports.

"We are well aware of the fact that Russia is earning money by transporting its oil and gas to the West through our pipe," [Dmitry Yarosh] said. "Therefore, we'll destroy this pipe in order to deprive Russia of its financing source."

Posted by b on May 16, 2014 at 6:23 UTC | Permalink


what will you tell your your children when they ask you: why do people go to war?

So much propaganda, so many stories. Thanks, b, for this place where we can make our best effort to sort it out, difficult as it may be.

Posted by: catlady | May 16 2014 6:30 utc | 1

Or a Russian false flag?

Just a gentle reminder of things to come if Ukraine explodes in a civil war?

Posted by: PuppetMaster | May 16 2014 6:32 utc | 2

The opinion of Michael Hudson:

Posted by: Willy2 | May 16 2014 7:37 utc | 3

Shale bubble - from February 2013

Wall Street promoted the shale gas drilling frenzy, which resulted in prices lower than the cost of production and thereby profited [enormously] from mergers & acquisitions and other transactional fees.

U.S. shale gas and shale oil reserves have been overestimated by a minimum of 100% and by as much as 400-500% by operators according to actual well production data filed in various states.


The price of natural gas has been driven down largely due to severe overproduction in meeting financial analysts’ targets of production growth for share appreciation coupled and exacerbated by imprudent leverage and thus a concomitant need to produce to meet debt service.


Due to extreme levels of debt, stated proved undeveloped reserves (PUDs) may not have
been in compliance with SEC rules at some shale companies because of the threat of
collateral default for those operators.

Industry is demonstrating reticence to engage in further shale investment, abandoning
pipeline projects, IPOs and joint venture projects in spite of public rhetoric proclaiming
shales to be a panacea for U.S. energy policy.

Exportation is being pursued for the differential between the domestic and international
prices in an effort to shore up ailing balance sheets invested in shale assets

It is imperative that shale be examined thoroughly and independently to assess the true value of
shale assets, particularly since policy on both the state and national level is being implemented
based on production projections that are overtly optimistic (and thereby unrealistic) and wells
that are significantly underperforming original projections.

From March 13, 2014

Shell cuts spending in U.S. to lower shale exposure

LONDON (Reuters) - Royal Dutch Shell will cut spending by a fifth and lay off staff at its American exploration and production business, the company said on Thursday, in another sign that oil majors are struggling to profit from the booming U.S. shale sector.

Oil and natural gas pumped from North American shale have proved a boon for many smaller energy businesses, but the world's biggest oil companies, including BP and Exxon Mobil , have had less success unlocking the prolific rock's full potential.

London-based BP announced last week that it is to spin off its onshore U.S. oil and gas assets into a separate business to improve performance.

"Financial performance there is frankly not acceptable ... some of our exploration bets have simply not worked out," said Ben van Beurden, who was head of refining before being promoted to Shell's top job at the start of the year.

Oil companies active in North American shale have broad exposure to profit-sapping U.S. natural gas, prices of which fell to their lowest in a decade during 2012 but rebounded as a cold winter depleted gas in storage.


Sentiment on the outlook for the fuel is improving with the prospect of liquefied natural gas (LNG) exports and increased industrial use, but uncertainty remains.

It is obvious what is going on, no?

Posted by: somebody | May 16 2014 7:38 utc | 4

US sponsored of course. Look the US is desperate to kill Russia'a gas supply to the EU. Sure the EU will be 'collateral damage', but that is a win-win for the neo-cons that dominate US 'foreign policy'. Russia and the EU both financially hammered, perfect outcome. Two potential 'peer rivals' taken out.

Sadly these people believe their own hype too much in that they think that the US is going to be gas and oil exporter anytime now (currently a huge importer of both) thanks to the miracles of 'shale gas and oil'. I wont go into the technicalities (read the Automatic Earth site for that) but it ain't gonna happen.

Plus, blowback, this is just about the one thing that would guarantee Germany leaving the US 'orbit' and who does it is not going to keep to hidden for very long, expect the YouTube of some of the perpetrators any day now

Posted by: oldskeptic | May 16 2014 7:40 utc | 5

This comes down to a capacity question, but I thought Russia and Germany agreed to the Nord Stream pipeline in order to by-pass any disruptions that might happen through Ukraine. Nord Stream was completed in 2012. Maybe Russia no longer needs the connection through Ukraine.

Whoever invested in that venture (a 1200 km pipeline running under the Baltic) must be looking at a nice return on investment right now.

Posted by: ToivoS | May 16 2014 7:57 utc | 6

The blowback will reach the US for sure ...

From 2011 New York Times

Insiders Sound an Alarm Amid a Natural Gas Rush

In the e-mails, energy executives, industry lawyers, state geologists and market analysts voice skepticism about lofty forecasts and question whether companies are intentionally, and even illegally, overstating the productivity of their wells and the size of their reserves. Many of these e-mails also suggest a view that is in stark contrast to more bullish public comments made by the industry, in much the same way that insiders have raised doubts about previous financial bubbles.

“Money is pouring in” from investors even though shale gas is “inherently unprofitable,” an analyst from PNC Wealth Management, an investment company, wrote to a contractor in a February e-mail. “Reminds you of dot-coms.”

Bloomberg April this year

The U.S. drive for energy independence is backed by a surge in junk-rated borrowing that’s been as vital as the technological breakthroughs that enabled the drilling spree. While the high-yield debt market has doubled in size since the end of 2004, the amount issued by exploration and production companies has grown nine-fold, according to Barclays Plc. That’s what keeps the shale revolution going even as companies spend money faster than they make it.

“There’s a lot of Kool-Aid that’s being drunk now by investors,” Tim Gramatovich, who helps manage more than $800 million as chief investment officer of Santa Barbara, California-based Peritus Asset Management LLC. “People lose their discipline. They stop doing the math. They stop doing the accounting. They’re just dreaming the dream, and that’s what’s happening with the shale boom.”


Spending Treadmill

“Who can, or will want to, fund the drilling of millions of acres and hundreds of thousands of wells at an ongoing loss?” Ivan Sandrea, a research associate at the Oxford Institute for Energy Studies in England, wrote in a report last month. “The benevolence of the U.S. capital markets cannot last forever.”

The spending never stops, said Virendra Chauhan, an oil analyst with Energy Aspects in London. Since output from shale wells drops sharply in the first year, producers have to keep drilling more and more wells to maintain production. That means selling off assets and borrowing more money.

“The whole boom in shale is really a treadmill of capital spending and debt,” Chauhan said.

Access to the high-yield bond market has enabled shale drillers to spend more money than they bring in. Junk-rated exploration and production companies spent $2.11 for every $1 earned last year, according to a Barclays analysis of 37 firms.


“It’s a perfect set-up for investors to lose a lot of money,” Gramatovich said. “The model is unsustainable.”

Posted by: somebody | May 16 2014 8:00 utc | 7

Posted by: ToivoS | May 16, 2014 3:57:14 AM | 6

Germany's energy supply is very much ensured by North Stream. The pipeline is majority owned by Gazprom, the rest by German Wintershall and EON, plus Netherland Gasunie. All those companies are basically state supported monopolies. Poland and Germany are also supplied via Belorus.

I guess Pravy Sektor is stupid enough not to know this. As a matter of fact the pipeline that got blown up delivers gas to Ukraine, and the terrorist act happened in Western Ukraine. So yes, it might be the Russian sending a message - like do fight Pravy Sector in West Ukraine not just "terrorism" in East Ukraine.

Might also have been a reminder: The pipeline that got blown up has quite an intriguing history

The pipeline was constructed in 1982-1984. It complemented the transcontinental gas transportation system Western Siberia-Western Europe which existed since 1973. The official inauguration ceremony took place in France.[2]...

The Soviet plans to build the pipeline were considered a threat to the balance of energy trade in Europe, and were strongly opposed by the Reagan administration.[8][9][10][11][12] The United States prevented U.S. companies from selling supplies to the Soviets for the pipeline, as part of what was also retribution against the Soviets for their policies towards Poland.[13]
America's Western European allies, however, refused to bow[14] to U.S. pressure[15] to boycott the pipeline,[16][17] insisting that contracts already signed between the Soviets and European companies needed to be honored. This led to several European companies being sanctioned by the U.S. Government.[15][18] Reagan reportedly said "Well, they can have their damned pipeline. But not with American equipment and not with American technology."[19] The efforts by the U.S. pressure to prevent the construction of the pipeline, and its export embargo of supplies for the pipeline (1980–1984) constituted one of the most severe transatlantic crises of the Cold War.

Posted by: somebody | May 16 2014 8:53 utc | 8

In Spanish:

Posted by: nik adibidez | May 16 2014 10:03 utc | 9

Why UN is a joke!

Posted by: Anonymous | May 16 2014 10:08 utc | 10


Posted by: Anonymous | May 16 2014 10:41 utc | 11

If there was any question that the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights is uselessly politicized and serves only as propaganda outlet for Western hegemony take a look at its Report on the Human Rights Situation in Ukraine: 15 May 2014. Though there a few pointed observations about Right Sector, the overwhelming majority of the report focuses on human rights violations perpetrated by pro-Russian activists in the east and Crimea.

The coup de grace is paragraph 63 detailing the Odessa massacre Trade Union Building fire, which, according to the report, was the result of pro-federalization provocation.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | May 16 2014 12:13 utc | 12

They keep talking about UNGAR 68/262 as if UNGARs were binding. Unlike UNSCRs, they aren't. They have no force in any sort of law whatever, and they do not empower or justify the double standards involved in the whole conceptualisation of the Report regarding Crimea. If UNGAR's were binding, Israel would have been hundreds-fold in breach of international law every since 1967, for example.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 16 2014 13:01 utc | 13


Obviously this would be the case - cf. Syria and the UN - as the US has co-opted/neutered nearly every major international institution in the world. Well-meaning people the world over have to reflexively understand that there is no point in looking to ANY international body for any kind of support that might blunt the murderous power of US hegemony as the results will always point away from US/Western guilt and towards a narrative that is completely fabricated horseshit. This strategy is very insidious and clever as by co-opting every institution on the planet the American war criminals - as they continue on their murderous campaign - can then say that they are well with the strictures of "civilized" society and its laws. This tactic is especially effective for the over-worked and ignorant masses in the US/West who only have time to read the headline "The [insert international body here] stated today that [insert nonsense here]..."

It's basically the same strategy the American war criminals first used domestically when the began their full-scale co-opting of our society - i.e., universities, the media, legislative bodies at every level of government, etc.

If every facet/institution of the society - but especially those "independent" bodies - nudge, wink - agrees with the ruling class, who then becomes the criminal/crazy/deviant member of the community?

Another insidious aspect on the international level is that even though Russia knows that this is the case if they are the ones to formally break off their relationship with the UN etc then it would only be used by the US war criminals to further successfully press for more belligerence.

This is why, IMO, Kerry, Obama and the rest of the US war criminals always stick to their outrageously horseshit stories: the must continue to play their roles in this new "reality-crafting" strategy that they've been rolling out for decades now.

They are "all-in" as far as US hegemony goes, so "all-in" that they are already pretending and acting like US full-spectrum dominance/hegemony is ALREADY FULLY EXISTENT!!! It's a necessary piece of the strategy.

They will never break out of character because this would be an implicit recognition that the ENTIRE fantasy (read: co-opted) world that they have been deliberately creating is just that: a bunch of fucking nonsense.

Today's US war criminals are EASILY just as delusional as the war criminals of days past but said delusions are not as easy to see because they have been so clever and successful at crafting/promulgating a reality/narrative around those delusions - through the MSM, etc - so that to the common person it all appears to make sense or at least be de rigueur.

For example:

Every politician - to a person - in the US agrees: Putin is evil, unbalanced, etc etc.

Every international political body in the world agrees: Putin is evil, unbalanced, etc etc.

What the eff more does any "sane" person need to know?

I know some here think that people are finally waking up to all of this crap but my fear - and why I am so vehement about it - is that it's not happening fast enough, that we will be too late before it starts getting REALLY bad.

I don't have any faith/believe that the people we are dealing with have any compunction/qualms about bringing about catastrophes of which mankind has not yet seen.

They have shown utter disregard/contempt for such common human ideas as truth, fairness, law, humaneness, etc that I don't see a limitation on how far they will push things.

Posted by: JSorrentine | May 16 2014 13:28 utc | 14

JSor, now true about OSCE, too. They rolled over yesterday for US war criminals when they belatedly endorsed the "roadmap' of the Kiev criminal regime and abandoned the earlier one drawn up with Russian participation. I knew Wolfgang Ischinger was a US stooge, but I had hopes that Burkhalter might honor the deal he made with Lavrov.

Posted by: okie farmer | May 16 2014 14:21 utc | 15


Having read the Hudson piece again the major problem I have is this:

It's fine and dandy to engage in bourgeois arm-chair analysis of the strategies of the US war criminals, how their war criminal plans have been decades in the making, how their war criminal minions have been implementing said plans over said decades and how other countries and the rest of the world have reacted to the plans/actions of said war criminals but if you've read this far along in this sentence you've probably got a good idea as to what I think is missing from Professor Hudson's analysis: um, that would be the WAR CRIMES, Mike.

See, by not speaking to the multitudes of criminal actions that the US hegemon has committed over the time period he addresses and which continue to the present day, Hudson offers us an antiseptically academic version of what is happening now in front of our eyes while EVEN MORE CRIMES are being committed. IMO, these analyses have a soothing effect upon the minds of conscientious people as they feel that they now are doing something about said criminal situation as they are learning more about a situation so that they can - like good little citizens - make an informed decision/opinion about the world around them.

Is Hudson's historical/political analysis correct? I don't have much fault to find other than this quote:

Why would an American president take so great a risk with his reputation, if not to make a major geopolitical move for a showdown with Russia?

Really, Mike? You think the CIA-scion, bullshitter fraud, race betrayer, kid-droner gives a FLYING FUCK about his reputation? Really? Especially when he's near guaranteed to make Clinton's post-Presidency haul look like pocket change?

Rather the fault I find is that we are relegating the commission of war crimes - that is, the continued and conscious destruction of people's lives - by the US to a position removed from primary importance.

Did Hitler - or any other wager of aggressive war - have strategies/plans/worldviews that have fascinated curious historians and laymen alike since the time of their manifestation and which have led to near constant scholarly analysis and review? Yup, and they should be studied.

However, I think that right now the MAJOR thrust of our analysis/focus as a society - seeing that horrible crime after horrible crime is still being added to the rap sheet of the American war criminals - should be to the observance/recording of and calling attention to those crimes while we figure out ways in which to stop them.

When the US war criminals are actively engaged in more aggressions, events such as these in Ukraine/Syria etc propagandistically either - depending on the audience - are portrayed jingoistically or acacemically/analytically by TPTB. If the targeted populous doesn't viscerally understand that Putin is Hitler why then they might enjoy listening to some think tankers - especially war criminals of days past, e.g., Kissinger, etc - debate/discuss and analyze just how the de facto crimes the US is once again committing are really just moves and countermoves in a big "chess game" and NOT the needless murder/maiming/displacment etc of innocent life that had condemned earlier war criminals.

Analyses such as the one Hudson offers can continue on indefinitely - or at least until the NEXT war criminal theater of operations is opened up - and that is why I argue against them. TPTB KNOW just how to keep "conversations/debates" going through their use of the MSM and other propaganda mechanisms. They KNOW how to buy themselves time until they have to create/roll-out another "event" to draw people's attention to. It's not that I don't think that Hudson isn't trying to help, it's that he's helping shift the focus/perception of intelligent/conscientious people away from the very real consequences of US war criminal actions when that is where they need to be IMO if we are going to begin to stop this fucking madness.

I don't really fucking care what US/NATO strategists are thinking as they commit, aide and abet murder/rape/pillage and displacement. I just want them to fucking stop.

My critics will say, "But due to people like Hudson, NOW I can see who's right and who's wrong in this situation."

My answer: in the year 2014, after all of the decades of needless death etc directly attributable to the US, you really think you STILL need a university professor to help you figure that out?

Posted by: JSorrentine | May 16 2014 15:03 utc | 16

Posted by: okie farmer | May 16, 2014 10:21:59 AM | 15

There seems to be a lot of disinformation. According to Reuters today (the opposite was reported all over yesterday)

The German diplomat moderating 'round table' talks to promote political reconciliation in Ukraine said on Friday the first meetings this week had included members of pro-Russian separatist groups such as the mayor of the eastern city of Donetsk, making it a meaningful process.

"It wasn't just a show put on by the Ukrainian government," Wolfgang Ischinger told Reuters from Kiev.

"There were also representatives, mayors and members of parliament from the east of the country, including for example the mayor of Donetsk," he said.

"Others were invited but didn't feel able to attend. So it is absurd to assert that the east wasn't represented," Ischinger said in a telephone interview. "It was represented, and there was discussion of the controversy."

This would be this mayor, I suppose - who is not a separatist and there is this:

The German mediator said a plan to hold the next round of talks in Donetsk had been dropped for security reasons, but being able to move it to Kharkiv showed the process was "being taken seriously by all involved".

Posted by: somebody | May 16 2014 15:13 utc | 17


Fucking homophones:

"populace" not "populous"

Posted by: JSorrentine | May 16 2014 15:17 utc | 18

somebody, if the Donetsk mayor was the only rep from the east, that doesn't really count. As you said he's not a separatist. I read a roster of the first meeting and other than the mayor there was no one I could identify from the east. (Possibly a priest?)

I also read from a post/comment here something about separatists from the east said they would be arrested if they showed up in Kiev.

"...mediator said a plan to hold the next round of talks in Donetsk had been dropped..." is bullshit in my opinion - they fully intend to exclude federalists from the talks.

Posted by: okie farmer | May 16 2014 15:30 utc | 19

JSorr @ 14,

An outstanding comment. Thanks for that.

Posted by: Lysander | May 16 2014 15:52 utc | 20

if the russians wanted to motivate europe to support the south stream pipeline that bypasses ukraine, maybe they'd blow up pipelines in ukraine...

...except for the location of the explosions... way off in the southeast corner of ukraine, where it's not gonna interfere with ukrainians' gas supplies much

those pipelines --brotherhood and soyuz-- go to hungary, and hungarians seem to think south stream is a pretty good idea

given the childish vindictiveness of the neocons running this operation, you got to wonder...

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 16 2014 15:54 utc | 21

Posted by: okie farmer | May 16, 2014 11:30:43 AM | 19

This is bound to end in a train wreck.
They obviously count on Akhmetov being able to take control.

Posted by: somebody | May 16 2014 16:00 utc | 22

Is daylight starting to pierce the fog over in the editorial offices at The Guardian? Not directly related to the pipeline issue, but definitely about Ukraine:

Posted by: James Patrick | May 16 2014 16:02 utc | 23

here's a great big map of gas and pipelines... russia, europe, north africa... on my setup, i got to save it to my hard drive to make it big enough to see... it's a pretty good map

here's a map of the overall situation, from europe to burma.. the "neocon curtain"... NATO/neocon attempt to isolate rusia, cause economic hardship in russia that will ead to regime change in russian and russian neocons regaining control of russian energy...

...becasue, after all, how you gonna achieve your benevolent global hegemony if you dont control russia?

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 16 2014 16:07 utc | 24

did I say southEAST corner of ukraine?

yes i did, but i meant southWEST corner...

there's a junction there of the brotherhood and soyuz pipelines, but i cant get a good fix on the location of the explostions

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 16 2014 16:15 utc | 25

and one more thing... victoria nuland's husband, robert kagan, is the co-founder of PNAC... i guess everybody knows that...

but you got to wonder if obama has any control at all over his government... given the conflicting stories from kerry and hagel, it looks like the cold civil war in the US is still raging

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 16 2014 16:21 utc | 26

The only thing the so-called splits we see arise between military and diplomatic wings indicate is that the military guys still follow the old rules of appearing sensible on all counts. It's only these guys, who have actual conventional career tragectories and 'legacies' to protect who engage in 'sensible' rhetoric. The Kerrys of the world operate from the R2P playbook verbatim and never stray into details of reality.

Posted by: L Bean | May 16 2014 16:36 utc | 27

@16 - jsore.. what the fuck are you adding to the conversation, other then repeatedly shouting 'war criminals'? everyone knows this. the usa thrives on ignoring this and continuing on as it always does. war and more war - endless war.. at some point one would hope the usa public would get sick of it and want their country to stop, but thru a combo of media brainwashing and a reliance of work from the same military industrial complex - they can't seem to do anything about it. kissinger, cheney, bush, rumsfield - all still roaming around free. obama - given a peace prize - that is how messed up reality is at present.. how do you suppose any of this changes? do you think your analysis of the hudson article for example, is going to change any of it? no..

Posted by: james | May 16 2014 16:43 utc | 28

@ L Bean "the military guys still follow the old rules of appearing sensible on all counts"

well, you dont have to be very sensible to realize that simultaneous wars with iran and russia would not be a good thing...

that'd take something like 15 million barrels a day off the oil market... but maybe the racial supremacist fanatics and the religious fanatics are getting that desperate

who knows?

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 16 2014 16:48 utc | 29

maybe you think that is enough to shout 'war criminals' endlessly?

at least our host 'b' offers a more nuanced approach as witnessed in this article drawing our attention to the hypocritical use of the idea of 'terrorism' to define actions of those in eastern ukraine from those responsible for the pipeline in western ukraine.. at what point do people see any of this, other then a select few reading blogs like this? the double standards need to be displayed in the mainstream media which typically always seems to avoid pointing them out. obviously i have a jaded attitude about the msm.. maybe if you ran it the everyday headline would be 'war criminals' with pictures of the same characters...

Posted by: james | May 16 2014 16:52 utc | 30

I'd still like to know the real reason all those generals were purged fromt he US military nuke forces were fired...

did they fire the sane ones or the crazy ones?

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 16 2014 16:54 utc | 31

Translation of Mariupol MetInvest/DPR agreement

Today, May 15, in Mariupol, a multilateral memorandum on peace and security was signed. The initiators of the signing of the document were the managers of the Ilyich and Azovstal iron and steel works, and the city staff of the people's guards [we assume this refers to the patrol groups].

The document was signed by the general directors of the Ilyich and Azoval iron and steel works, Yuri Zinchenko and Enver Tskitishvili, Mayor Yuri Khotlubey, and the acting head of the city department of internal affairs, Oleg Morgun, the representatives of veterans, women, trade unions in Mariupol, and the leader of the DPR supporters in Mariupol, Denis Kuzmenko.

To the memorandum were attached joint initiatives on public safety in Mariupol and suggestions to the Kiev authorities.

Here is the full text of the memorandum on peace and security in Mariupol:

1. The events of May 9 showed that armed confrontation will lead us on the road to death. This is the way to a political stalemate. These events must not be repeated. Our priority is peace in Mariupol, calm in the city, ensuring the stable operation of industrial and utility companies. Ideological and political differences are no cause for bloodshed. We are united by a desire for peace and our love for Mariupol.

2. The withdrawal of troops from Mariupol has given rise to a peace process. We support and will jointly develop initiatives to strengthen the work of the people's guards. We trust the city police and support their fight against looting, hooliganism and theft in the city.

3. We need to take new steps to ensure peace and order in Mariupol. We call for a complete rejection of violence and the disarmament of all armed groups that have emerged in the wake of the protests. The leaders of the DPR, the people's guards and police assure that they will renounce illegal activities (violence, the occupation of buildings and the use of weapons).

4. Simultaneously, we are jointly appealing to the Kiev authorities with a proposal to remove military checkpoints from roads leading to Mariupol. The city police must ensure peace at the entrances of the city with the support of the people's guard.

5. The city authorities assure the livelihoods of the citizens of Mariupol and the smooth functioning of municipal services and infrastructure.

6. Together, we shall make every effort to restore damaged or destroyed buildings and roads, and to clean the city.

7. We shall do all possible to immortalise the memory of those citizens of Mariupol killed in the recent armed clashes.

8. This memorandum is open for signatures from other members of the public and businesses in Mariupol. We are sending it to the authorities, international organisations working in Ukraine and the media.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 16 2014 17:16 utc | 32

9. We ask the MSM not to spin this as a victory for Kiev and the defeat of separatism.

Posted by: dh | May 16 2014 17:27 utc | 33

That sounds like a rather dubious proposition to me. DPR is the People's Republic of Donetsk, right? Kiev will not remove its roadblocks because they are there as much to stop "terrorists" (ie DPR activists of any sort) getting in, as to stop them getting out. So Denis Kuzmenko ("the leader of the DPR supporters in Mariupol") has signed something that can't really work on the stated terms unless all DPR "supporters" everywhere are rounded up and put in camps. One way or another, if not by quarantining the cities then by quarantining the individuals, Kiev will carry on pursuing the aim of getting rid of anybody who "supports" anything like the DPR, ever again. That would be Brennan's agenda. That's what the CIA do, they purge the country of leftists, if possible by liquidating them. I'm not exaggerating, that's what they do, nothing less.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 16 2014 17:33 utc | 34

More provocations by NATO

Posted by: Anonymous | May 16 2014 17:36 utc | 35

jsorrentine @ #16,

I hear your frustration, but really, there are lots and lots and lots of people who are not at your level of understanding, and consequently will not be tracking instances and fitting them into a pattern with an eye toward action. Consider your substantive post @ #14 wherein you point out all of the Western institutions that have been suborned to the NeoLiberal/NeoConservative cause, and how difficult this makes it for even intelligent, but harried and stressed out, citizens to delve below the surface and to ferret out the underlying pattern. Do you think that these circumstances might have something to do with why they are not drawing the syllogism? They don't even know that there is a syllogism to be drawn.

This site, and a few others like it, are among the few places where such information is knitted into an intelligible Gestalt. To those already frequenting such sites, all of this seems fairly obvious. But what of the others who have no such conceptual framework within which to make sense of the welter of confusing news and interpretations? Prof. Hudson's post still requires a critical mass of information for the reader to make sense of it, but he does step the reader through the sequence of insights required to comprehend the larger patterns that are in play. And to be fair, he does propose some measures at the end of his post, although betting on their implementation would be a bad wager given the ruthlessness of our Elites and Oligarchs.

It is sadly true that such analysis always seems to lag well behind the unconscionable actions of these Elites and Oligarchs. But don't take my word for it, recall what Karl Rove had to say on this to a journalist:

The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

But in order to get anywhere against this, we've got a shitload of false consciousness to get rid of. They've stolen a march on us.

Posted by: JerseyJeffersonian | May 16 2014 18:48 utc | 36

@ james

what the fuck are you adding to the conversation, other then repeatedly shouting 'war criminals'?

I'll ignore for the moment that you appear to be a complete effing dbag who is just looking to get my hackles raised so as to get b to ban me - hey remember this comment from yesterday, james? - probably not. Your inability to seemingly retain/understand the points of my longer posts in a single thread leads me to believe that your day-to-day retention of information is also suspect. Oh well. Wait, did you get that? Or should I just copy and paste the information in this post to the end so that you can read it twice without having to 'member stuff?

Here's YOUR post to me:

i don't like the parts where you attack others here on the site. i think you can say your piece without having to resort to that. that's mostly it, otherwise - continue.


The point I was attempting to make - in much too long a fashion, I apologize - is that in analyzing/debating/discussing the events at hand we are often implicitly buying into the sanitized narrative that TPTB have crafted/meant for us to buy into. For example, with Hudson's take on the Cold War lead up to the present Ukraine business, when one reads it one comes away with the feeling that all of the criminal actions on behalf of the US are legitimate actions as they were part and parcel of the Cold War and its aftermath.

Now any even casual student of history knows for a fact that the VAST MAJORITY of the events of the "Cold War" should more correctly - especially given 3+ decades of review and the release of data from the former USSR - be labeled as American acts of aggression/war crimes, needless - from the POV of the Cold War - but necessary if one looks at it from the POV of the US war criminals and their insatiable lust for loot/power/empire.

The same is obviously true of the GWOT narrative. Syria etc are depicted NOT as US acts of aggression/war crimes but as simply steps/strategies that are necessary to the framework of the GWOT. Obviously, everyone here understands the nonsense implicit in the GWOT so I will keep things short.

Thus, what I am saying - and which you apparently lack either the reading-time or capacity to understand - is that we - us peons - can no longer afford to debate WITHIN the confines/parameters of the narrative that the aggressor US is promulgating. By specifically focusing attention to war crimes - for example - I believe that people can start to break down the narrative of TPTB chapter by chapter - i.e, Cold War to GWOT to Cold WarII to ?? - that they have laid out for us to follow and which gives them continuous cover for their crimes. Instead of getting caught up in THEIR arena of thought I think it would be beneficial to mankind to start to correctly see American war crimes as pieces of a single campaign of aggression especially as many many of the same people have been and still are involved in said aggression to this very day.

As to b's nuanced analysis, b analyzes and provides high-quality perspectives on events that usually are very timely and topic specific. Although infrequent, he does pull back to engage in the more global politico-historical theorizing that other writers and posters here - myself included obviously - engage in on a more consistent basis. However, I and the others here know our posts would be much less interesting and insightful if it were not for b's OPs/insights on events and what they add to our conceptions as to what is occurring.

Lastly, you don't like my posts? Well then effing skip them or at least read/understand them before you respond. Or are you gonna get all butt-hurt when I slap you down again?

BTW: I'll be out for a while - maybe days - so I might not be able to respond to your apologies. Sorry.

OK, ready for the rerun?

@ james

what the fuck are you adding to the conversation, other then repeatedly shouting 'war criminals'?

I'll ignore for the moment that you appear to be a complete effing dbag who is just looking to get my hackles raised so as to get b to ban me - hey remember this comment from yesterday, james? - probably not...

Posted by: JSorrentine | May 16 2014 18:49 utc | 37

Coal Mining Poland's Trojan Horse – Ukraine

WARSAW – A European 'energy union’ plan proposed by Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk as an EU response to the crisis in Ukraine could be a Trojan horse for fossil fuels. On account of Poland’s proximity and deep historical ties to Ukraine, the country’s centre-right government led by Donald Tusk has assumed a prominent position in attempts to ease the crisis in Ukraine.

Posted by: Oui | May 16 2014 19:06 utc | 38

JSorr, I have been thinking along similar lines. I feel like the journalist Ron Suskind who was called in to the White House to be chided by a senior Bush adviser: "You believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality... That's not the way the world works anymore. we're an empire now and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality... we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too. We're history's actors... and you, all of you, will be left to study what we do."

The "thing" has now become a rollercoaster, it's belting along. The new realities are coming in so thick and fast something must be very close... the demise of the dollar? I see them charging around in Washington like a drunk Nixon screaming for the bombing of Cambodia: "Drop Syria! Move the Jihadists to Ukraine! Hold on, no, they've got beards! Fuck Israel! Get me Iran on the phone! The Administration appears to be in deep chaos. Meanwhile Putin and Lavrov are quietly sipping tea.

Posted by: BrevigBay | May 16 2014 19:07 utc | 39

@37 jsore quotes " in analyzing/debating/discussing the events at hand we are often implicitly buying into the sanitized narrative that TPTB have crafted/meant for us to buy into." and later "..we - us peons - can no longer afford to debate WITHIN the confines/parameters of the narrative that the aggressor US is promulgating. By specifically focusing attention to war crimes - for example - I believe that people can start to break down the narrative of TPTB chapter by chapter - i.e, Cold War to GWOT to Cold WarII to ?? - that they have laid out for us to follow and which gives them continuous cover for their crimes."

forgive me for trying to condense your argument here.. yes i was aware of what i said yesterday and no, my attention span is not a problem here as i see it.

no one here, or next to no one here is buying into any sanitized version of reality as promulgated by the usa and the msm which seems to often reflect the talking points of the mic or ever changing us admin..

i agree with you - focusing on war crimes committed by the usa is a good idea. competing for space to craft a different narrative then the one regularly given by the usadmin/msm is a losing and uphill battle.. no one ever pays attention to the fact the wars started a few years ago are generally always the result of the usa - a warmongering nation.. you certainly won't read about it on the cover of some major media outlet.. it will never happen.. as gil scott heron said back in the 70s - 'the revolution will not be televised.'

as for what we armchair warriors do - i don't see it counting for much or anything, but i do like to read others views to sometimes discover what i might not have been made aware of previously. in this regard i thought hudsons article gave a good overview for anyone new to the conversation on the geo-politics of ukraine.. do we need this to help tell us the usa is a 'war criminal'? probably not as anyone paying attention ought to have realized that a long time ago..

was that a slap down? try again and feel free to skip my posts too anytime..

Posted by: james | May 16 2014 19:28 utc | 40

I perceive Hudson as a "sanitised version of reality," myself, because he's an effin' liberal. He explicitly and as it were ex cathedra rejects Marx's Third Law, as I would like to call it in vague tribute to Isaac Asimov. But obviously, the law I mean is the one concerning the falling rate of profit. Hudson is the anointed high priest of pseudo-Left economics at the CounterPunch level. He even went to China, and attempted to persuade an entire conference hall full of Party economists that Marx's Third Law was bunk. But it isn't. And I shall not repeat my wondrous all-word proof of this, because I'm sure you all remember it perfectly, I've explained it so many times before. Consequently, AFAIAC, Hudson is up the spout, and those of you who prefer "discernible wisps of reality" or whatever it was the man said to Susskind, can keep him.


Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 16 2014 19:41 utc | 41

Steelworkers from plant owned by Ukraine’s richest man join police battling back against pro-Russia insurgents
Akhmetov has been notable for his noncommittal during the turbulence that has for more than a month gripped the region that is home to his most lucrative industrial assets, so the development is noteworthy.

A video statement by Akhmetov, 47, on Thursday made it clear that his loyalties are not so much with the Kyiv government but with his native Donbass — a territory that encompasses the Luhansk and Donetsk regions. The only way, he said, was to effect major constitutional reforms, while preserving a united Ukraine.

“This is when power goes from Kyiv to the regions. This is when authorities are not appointed but elected. And this is when local authorities take responsibility for people’s real future,” he said.

Independence or absorption into Russia would spell economic catastrophe for the region, he said.

Posted by: Virgile | May 16 2014 20:02 utc | 42

I would like to hear what is happening in Mariupol from someone other than the NY Times. Since Akhmatov seems to be suggesting exactly what Putin has been asking for, a federalized Ukraine, I don't see how this is a great victory for the coup government in Kiev.

Also, what happened to the Ukrainian army. Reports are that there were 20,000 soldiers deployed there, and yet they have failed to move against the east. Further, the national guard units that were stirring up problems around Mariupol seem to have disappeared.

What happened to the army?

Posted by: Bob In Portland | May 16 2014 20:19 utc | 43

Tori Nuland interview with Zeinab Badawi on BBC World's Hard Talk programme is finest comedy gold. Sorry, can't post link.

Posted by: Cortes | May 16 2014 21:00 utc | 44

flickervertigo, great map, thanks.

Posted by: okie farmer | May 16 2014 21:20 utc | 45

Posted by: Bob In Portland | May 16, 2014 4:19:26 PM | 43


Posted by: somebody | May 16 2014 21:20 utc | 46

@Bob in Portland #43:

Those reports of 20,000 Ukrainian troops amassed in the east were always kind of sketchy. I think Putin mentioned them several times; that may have been just to justify the presence of Russian troops near the border.

The last I heard of the Ukrainian army was in a report about desertions (by reservists that had been recently called up in the current "mobilization"). My impression is that the army barely exists any more. You only hear about the National Guard now and occasionally the Dnepr batallion.

Meanwhile, an official of the Donetsk Republic has said that Kiev underreports how many people are killed in its military operations (in Russian).

Also, the Saker directs us to two phone call leaks If genuine (as leaks by the Russians generally are) the second conversation removes any doubt that Igor Kolomoisky, "mega-oligarch, Mafia don, dual Ukrainian-Israeli citizen and 'junta governor' of the city of Dnepropetrovsk in southeastern Ukraine" ordered the Crimea massacre.

Posted by: Demian | May 16 2014 21:33 utc | 47

@somebody #46:


I hardly think so: This from the Saker (same linkas above):

I have seen some combat footage showing what are clearly well-trained and well-equipped Donbass resistance units preparing for an ambush. This was not the typical ragtag force mix of civilians with hunting rifles, young men with pretend semi-uniforms and a few old guys with beer bellies. The footage showed a well camouflaged unit silently progressing though vegetation while keeping in radio contact with their commanders. Also, at least one pro-resistance website mentions radio intercepts of the junta forces radio communications. Nice. It looks to me that the resistance might well be getting better organized and better equipped.

Also, Igor Strelkov has said that Donetsk Republic forces will now kill pro-junta forces. So maybe it's not so much deescalation as running into trouble.

Posted by: Demian | May 16 2014 21:52 utc | 48

@ Cortes | May 16, 2014 5:00:03 PM | 44

BBC Hard Talk episode with Tory Nuland

Posted by: Oui | May 16 2014 22:25 utc | 49

@49 The little smile she does is very appealing. It sort of says 'We are the good guys.'

Posted by: dh | May 16 2014 22:52 utc | 50


Obviously, particularly the late teen, early twenty demographic needs continuing academic instruction on how and why the American Elite has a record of war criminality the past several decades. It also needs firebrands to motivate sectors of it and older demographics to both hit the streets and to campaign for any alternative anti-imperial political candidates who are on offer.
OWS was a fledgling possibility and many groups like International Answer joined it, the latter presumably realizing
the need for eventually shaping the program, tactically and otherwise. It was not planned to fail, nor were the anti-Iraq War rallies planned to fail, though both did.
Academics and firebrands alike must continue to motivate the various demographics of the masses until a critical mass is reached.

Posted by: amspirnational | May 16 2014 23:10 utc | 51

NEO – Odessa: A Model of Warfare On the Cheap

This was a NATO military operation, fully coordinated through the US Embassy in Kiev, one using nerve gas and done with full cooperation and support from local authorities. Sources among local law enforcement indicate that 94 additional bodies were removed, all showing signs of death from a chemical nerve agent, identified “probably” as VX. VX or one of a dozen or more derivatives of VX are available in grenade form...

...The new kind of war requires no victory, no land to be conquered, no enemy to be defeated. War is a justification in itself. The “new war” is a continual war, one that begins and knows no end, a plague without a cure.

The real enemy is peace. War is and always has been an end onto itself. It is only now that this fact is not only realized but described in theory and put into practice on a global scale. Were one to look at Libya or Iraq or Afghanistan or Syria, perhaps Sudan or the Democratic Republic of Congo, these wars, these “revolutions” are all the same, unending and “unendable.”

Israel learned this lesson long ago as they are 66 years into a war they plan to sustain forever.

Posted by: ProPeace | May 17 2014 0:01 utc | 52


Vickie Nuland's smile is the smile of a person who knows that what she is saying is worthless or a person under heavy anti-depression treatment. At times she even has tears in her eyes. I guess she is on the path to dementia. It's time she resigns.

Posted by: Virgile | May 17 2014 0:25 utc | 53

This may have been covered in the comments here already (I have not looked) but was unsurprisingly, and expectedly "missed" by the blogger.

Ukrainian news: two phone call leaks which say it all (plus a long Saker rant)

Both of these represent important revelations in the Ukraine.

The first recorded call was when Igor Kolomoisky, "mega-oligarch, Mafia don, dual Ukrainian-Israeli citizen and "junta governor" of the city of Dnepropetrovsk in southeastern Ukraine" called Oleg Tsarev to tell him (using mafia style language) he put out a "big money" hit on Tsarev and his family.

The second call was between one Oleg Noginskii (a leader of sorts among the Jewish community in the Ukraine presumably) and "Israeli Honorary Ambassador to the Ukraine, Ian Epstein (spelling?)". Noginskii is ticked off about Kolomoisky's actions supporting the bandera nazis, mixing the Jewish community up in the western terrorism, and his advertised hit against Tsarev. The Israeli ambassador plays coy and ignorant. Remember how Ashton reacted to Paet telling her the word on the street in Kiev was the snipers on maidan were a junta job? The Israeli ambassador plays the same dishonest game with Noginskii. He may not know the details of the Jewish mafia/Mossad role Kolomoisky is playing, but he knows Kolomoisky is "one of our guys", just like one could see in Ashton's reaction about the maidan snipers.

Tsarev is probably the most important political figure in the Ukraine. He gets no mention in the corrupted western media because he is the one they, and their NWO "associates", would least like to see gain influence in the Ukraine. He's not on the side of Israel, the USA or the EU. He's popular, he's got a lot of guts , and he has a brain (the exact opposite of the cowardly sort of buggered scum picked in the west to run things for the plutocracy in the colonies). Targeting this man for assassination is the sort of thing the west does when potential leaders appear that threaten their "interests". It's called decapitating a movement. We all know their history of doing this.

The call between Noginskii and the Israeli ambassador highlights another aspect of the west's assault on the people of the Ukraine. That of Israeli direct involvement and that of the zionist Jewish oligarchy stationed outside of Israel. We have seen hints of this Israeli/zionist involvement before (how could a person miss these), but the way the Israeli ambassador played coy with Noginskii makes it quite clear Israel and its zionist network is up to their ears in this, and the Jewish community of the Ukraine (outside the Jewish mafia oligarchs), their views and concerns are simply going to be shined on. Like the views of Iraqi Jews were in the 1950's, right before Israeli terrorists scared them with bombs.

Posted by: scalawag | May 17 2014 0:51 utc | 54

@scalawag #54:

You neglect to mention that the Saker didn't think that Epstein "plays the same dishonest game with Noginskii". I must admit, however, that a lot of Epstein's remarks didn't sound genuine: the religious devoutness, in particular, sounded pretty fake.

Thanks for explaining who Tsarev is. I was puzzled by why a hit was put out on him.

Nice that the Russkies keep on leaking intercepted phone calls.

Posted by: Demian | May 17 2014 1:07 utc | 55

Interesting read regarding what may happen in Ukraine soon and what's been going on in Syria. But I almost puked when reading disgusting, blatant, hypocritical propaganda part about Israeli "antiterror operations" against Palestinians: Urban warfare

Posted by: ProPeace | May 17 2014 1:19 utc | 56

Posted by: Demian | May 16, 2014 9:07:24 PM | 55

"You neglect to mention that the Saker didn't think that Epstein "plays the same dishonest game with Noginskii".

Saker's site hosted the raw data, and links to it. I posted my own views on what was posted there, not Saker's. He didn't speculate on that. Why the strawman? Have you nothing better to do on a friday evening?

Posted by: scalawag | May 17 2014 1:26 utc | 57

Bloodbath in Odessa guided by interim rulers of Ukraine

"The Atlanticist media stubbornly presents the crimes committed in Odessa on May 2 as the result of an accidental blaze, while the photos and video footage available leave no doubt that the victims were tortured and murdered before being burned. We bring you first-hand information on how the operation was organized and executed under the direct and personal authority of coup-appointed acting President Alexander Turchinov and Ukrainian-Israeli oligarch Ihor Kolomoiskiy.

The information provided below was obtained from an insider in one of Ukraine’s law-enforcement agencies, who wished to remain anonymous for obvious reasons. It is clear that there are people even within the interim administration in Kiev who are against what happened in Odessa on May 2 and throughout the whole country [1].

Ten days before the tragedy a secret meeting was held in Kiev, chaired by the incumbent president Olexander Turchinov, to prepare a special operation in Odessa. Present were minister of internal affairs Arsen Avakov, the head of the Ukrainian Security Service Valentin Nalivaychenko, and the secretary of the National Security and Defense Council Andriy Parubiy. Ukrainian oligarch Ihor Kolomoiskiy, the Kiev-appointed head of regional administration of the Dnepropetrovsk region, was consulted in regard to the operation.

During that meeting Arsen Avakov reportedly came up with the idea of using football hooligans, known as “ultras,” in the operation. Ever since his time as the head of the Kharkov regional administration he has worked closely with the fan leaders, whom he continued to sponsor even from his new home in Italy [2].

Kolomoisky temporarily delivered his private “Dnieper-1” Battalion under the command of law-enforcement officials in Odessa and also authorized a cash payment of $5,000 for “each pro-Russian separatist” killed during the special operation.

A couple of days before the operation in Odessa Andriy Parubiy brought dozens of bullet-proof vests to local ultra-nationalists [3]. This video shows an episode of handing the vests to the local Maidan activists in Odessa. Take note of the person who receives the load. He is Mykola Volkov, a local hard-core criminal who would be repeatedly screened during the assault on Trade Unionist House gun-shooting at the people [4] and reporting about the “incident” by phone to an official in Kiev [5]."

Just the first part. Evil, evil Rooskii propaganda, no doubt, and I'm sure neither the Psaki or Regev buggers would approve. ;)

Posted by: scalawag | May 17 2014 2:16 utc | 58

Oui, every time I see/hear Nuland she seems to me to surpass even Kerry and O as lying pieces of shit. Not a single sentence she spoke in the Hardtalk was true. It's the Dubya model - just present total fiction as 'facts', and proceed with 'govt as ongoing criminal enterprise'.

Posted by: okie farmer | May 17 2014 4:06 utc | 59

Demian #48

Also, Igor Strelkov has said that Donetsk Republic forces will now kill pro-junta forces

Do we have a link for Strelkov's latest? I saw a whole screed here in comments that I loved but no link. Sorry if I missed it, I've been sporadic the last couple days.

Posted by: Grieved | May 17 2014 4:31 utc | 60

terrific Crosstalk

Posted by: okie farmer | May 17 2014 4:32 utc | 61

Posted by: scalawag | May 16, 2014 8:51:12 PM | 54 and rest.

Even Russia Today / RT titles the leaks with "alleged", and voltairnet makes up their own reality without proof like Victoria Nuland.

It does not help to live in just another dreamland. The world is not black and white.

The Noginski "leak" just means, he has an opionion on what was going on. The Kolomoisky "leak" is completely unlikely, a href="">considering this said in court.

In preliminary hearings last week, Mr Pinchuk's QC, Lord Grabiner, highlighted the unorthodox attitude of Messrs Bogolyubov and Kolomoisky towards keeping documents relating to their business activities. Citing testimony from Mr Kolomoisky's own lawyers, Freshfields, the billionaire's "standard working practice" had been to dispose of all hard- copy documents immediately. He was also, Freshfields said, in the habit of disposing of all manuscript notes taken during business meetings.

Also, all his emails were "double-deleted" – meaning they were deleted and then the "deleted items" folder was itself deleted, making it very hard to retrieve anything.

And you believe that the person described above is as stupid to make a threatening phone call in an area of Russian or - as a matter of fact - any surveillance - by himself? A phone call the victim could easily have taped himself?

All you are doing here is spreading disinformation - for the stupid people.

Posted by: somebody | May 17 2014 4:44 utc | 62

@Grieved #48:

Sorry, maybe I was recalling what Uki media were saying. Here's something more authoritative:

Igor Girkin, known as Strelok or Shooter, who was named today as the head of the rebel forces in the Donetsk region, ordered all Ukrainian government troops and police to submit to his command or leave the region within 48 hours. The rebels will start an “anti-terrorist operation” against the Ukrainian military if the deadline is ignored, the head of the separatist group, Denis Pushilin, said by phone.

So no talk of killing pro-Kiev forces making incursions into the Donetsk Republic, but a statement that such incursions will no longer be responded to peacefully if at all possible.

Posted by: Demian | May 17 2014 5:05 utc | 63

Transcript of Lavrov's Bloomberg interview - mentioned by Ray McGovern in the very good cross talk - thanks - posted by
okie farmer | May 17, 2014 12:32:43 AM | 61

LAVROV: Frankly, I haven't seen the information about the details of those talks. I understand that this is a result of the pressure which has been exerted on the Ukrainian authorities in Kiev by OSCE, in accordance with the Geneva statement of 17th of April, which called for all-inclusive national dialogue with the participation of all political groups and the regions of Ukraine. And, frankly, I don't know what exactly is the composition of the roundtable which has been not very loudly announced, as I understand, in Kiev. We believe that for this national dialogue to succeed, it is absolutely necessary to ensure equal participation of all the regions of Ukraine, not only east and south, obviously, but also the regions of the west, where we also have some issues related to self-determination of minorities. They want their rights to be asserted. They want cultural autonomy, as was manifested by the statement of Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban. So the inclusiveness is the key to success of this exercise. But any step in the direction of national dialogue is welcome.

CHILCOTE: Well, my understanding is the – that the Ukrainian central government is happy to have anyone at the talks that doesn't have blood on their hands. And is that not an acceptable way to hold the talks? I mean should the separatists that have been fighting have a seat at the table?

LAVROV: Who is going to pass a value judgment on the blood on the hands? It's a very rhetorical statement. It's like we saw in relation to the Syrian crisis, when the West said anyone could participate on the part of the government in the negotiations, but those who have blood on their hands. And how you qualify the people with the blood on their hands? Will the current coalition members qualify for this? They have been directly involved in the events in the Maidan in February. The current secretary of the Security Council of Ukraine, Mr.Paruby, was seen carrying a sniper gun, taking it from his car and so on and so forth.

It's either national reconciliation or it is the winner takes it all. And the winner determines to whom to talk.

Posted by: somebody | May 17 2014 6:57 utc | 64

Subtle deconstruction by German MSM of the "common values" foreign policy argument

Brief translation of the headline: Death throes and western values - a school student killed by shots and an agonizing execution

Posted by: somebody | May 17 2014 7:09 utc | 65

plus 65 - rubbing it in - Western values and human rights

Russia does not have the death penalty

Capital punishment in Russia has been indefinitely suspended,[1] although it is theoretically allowed, with the only legal method being shooting. There exists both an implicit moratorium established by the President Yeltsin in 1996, and an explicit one, established by the Constitutional Court of Russia in 1999 and which was most recently reaffirmed in 2009. Russia has not executed anyone since 1996, and the regulations of the Council of Europe prohibit it from doing so at any time in the future.

So it is a easily verifiable fact that Russians share more values with Europe than the US.

Posted by: somebody | May 17 2014 7:58 utc | 66

Posted by: somebody | May 17, 2014 12:44:52 AM | 62

Thanks somebody. Your attempt to discredit the information means your people find it threatening. That's good news. :)

Posted by: scalawag | May 17 2014 8:39 utc | 67

Posted by: scalawag | May 17, 2014 4:39:02 AM | 67
That's no proof of your information either, nor proof there exist something like "my people". It is pure fantasy - designed for the disinformation of the stupid people.

From the Lavrov Bloomberg interview - and this is threatening for anybody who thinks it is possible to "mediate" the conflict in Ukraine:

The other thing to which I wanted to get response from Washington was these reports about the secret visit of the Right sector coordinator Artyomenko to Washington for alleged meetings with Victoria Nuland. And we want answers to these questions because it's too serious to manipulate events in Europe across the Atlantic. It's not a remote-control game. It's very serious for us.

Posted by: somebody | May 17 2014 9:38 utc | 68

somebody 68

Have that been reported before? I dont get any hits on google on that name..

Posted by: Anonymous | May 17 2014 11:01 utc | 69

67 scalawag

I agree with you, why would the calls be fake? Makes no sense.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 17 2014 11:03 utc | 70

Slaviansk mayor Ponomarev announced Kiev lost 650 mercenaries in 10 days (from 02 to 12 May), either killed or injured.

285 extremists from Pravyj sektor (Nazional guards), 120 Ukrainian mercenaries from spec. battalions Dnepr and Azov, 90 Ukranian SBU, 70 foreign mercenaries, 25 CIA and FBI agents (13 killed, 12 injured).

Pro-federalists lost 8 people, plus 3 injured.

Interesting news, but I'm doubtful about it, too big discrepancy between losses and kills, even keeping in mind ambush favors insurgents. Even low trained Pravyj sector are heavily armed and have choppers and BTRs support, what to speak of experienced Blackwater mercenaries, they are definitely not an easy prey. I doubt undercover CIA/FBI agents carry identifications either, so how would insurgents know who they are? Some are captured and talking? This would be all over news by now. Plus you cant hide so many dead without anyone taking pics or videos, none have leaked AFAIK.

Posted by: Harry | May 17 2014 11:18 utc | 71


Exactly my thought reading that, contrary - very few people of the army/right sektor seems to have been killed at all.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 17 2014 11:34 utc | 72

69) Try Artemenko there is for example this

Posted by: somebody | May 17 2014 12:04 utc | 73

Posted by: Anonymous | May 17, 2014 7:34:46 AM | 72

"Injured" is a big, black box, I think he also includes captured.

The mix of forces he names is interesting - Polish mercenaries, Academi, Greystone, National Guard, Pravy Sektor, Kolomoisky militia ...

Posted by: somebody | May 17 2014 12:16 utc | 74


correct working link

Posted by: somebody | May 17 2014 12:35 utc | 75

I've been chatting with the person who translated the second call, as well as with Mark who hosts the blog where it was posted. We seem to agree that the first call (Kolomoisky to Tsarev) was genuine - after all, Tsarev confirmed it - but we all equally seem to think the second call was staged, so as to be leaked deliberately, and we have a good little discussion about that on here (just ignore the interjections by Lobro, he's my resident crazy): here.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 17 2014 16:38 utc | 76

Pro-UA translation of Strelkov's Youtube appeal to Donbas volunteers:

Posted by: Anonymous | May 17 2014 18:42 utc | 78

Rowan, good discussion of both leaks on your niqnaq site. Like everyone else, I have doubts about the second leak. Nonetheless, good work.

Posted by: okie farmer | May 17 2014 19:09 utc | 79

ditto@79. thanks rowan.

Posted by: james | May 17 2014 19:16 utc | 80

@Anonymous #78

Pro-Russian Commander in Eastern Ukraine Sheds Light on Origin of Militants   [Warning, source WSJ]

Posted by: Oui | May 17 2014 19:25 utc | 81

@Anonymous #78

Pro-Russian Commander in Eastern Ukraine Sheds Light on Origin of Militants   [Warning, source WSJ]

Posted by: Oui | May 17 2014 19:26 utc | 82

Interesting. The position of Ukraine's richest oligarch, Rinat Akhmetov, is closer to that of Moscow than of Kiev: he wants federalization. He has also called on Kiev to stop its military operation in eastern Ukraine.

A fact that suggests the alignment of Akhmetov’s interest with Moscow’s is that teams of his steelworkers that took over in Mariupol were backed by municipal police that had openly supported the separatists.

The Washington Post reports that even after the steelworkers took over, pro-Russian forces were allowed to remain with their flags still flying above the city administration building.

What we would see if separatists in Donetsk and Luhansk also back down is Akhmetov taking over from where the separatists left off to press home demands for decentralization of Ukraine.

He will have an ally in Russia to that end, even though those separatists who have wished for full autonomy and accession to Russia would feel betrayed.

Akhmetov recorded a speech in which he said federalization is the best option for Ukraine, and Yats spoke against Akhmetov's suggestion. (Both links are Russian.) So far the Western media seems to be ignoring this, since the US plan to make all of the Ukraine Russia-hating still stands.

Posted by: Demian | May 17 2014 19:41 utc | 83

WSJ is pushing the hard-line, what I might call CIA position: all leftists must be exterminated, not coexisted with. That is the traditional CIA attitude after coups.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 17 2014 20:07 utc | 84

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