Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 09, 2014

Ukraine: Today's Incursion Into Mariupol

Alex Thomson of the British Channel 4 News reports from Mariupol:

[I]t seems clear that Ukrainian forces unleashed their guns upon Mariupol today and appear to have achieved precious little beyond alienating further the sizeable element of the population which wants rid of them altogether.

The city council of Mariupol was and is occupied and barricaded by federalists. There was also one bigger police station that was friendly with the federalists. It allegedly was held by Berkut riot police forces which had been abolished by the coup government. Today several BMP light tanks and BRT armored personal carriers drove into the city. Some unarmed civilians tried to hold them up. The city streets were flagged in anticipation of today's yearly victory parade which is held to commemorate the end of the long and bloody fight against the German nazi regime.

The BMPs seem to have driven up to the police station and took it under fire. Pictures showed a lot of damage and the building going up in flames. In some street nearby one BMP broke down and the troops it carried seem to have proceeded to their target on foot. While they were moving through the city unarmed civilians were shouting at them. At some point the troops opened fire and several people were killed and wounded. At least one man with a pistol was shooting back - videos from different perspectives: 1, 2, 3.

The whole operation in Mariupol today makes no sense to me. Why use hit and run tactics? Why use so few, badly trained troops. Why on such a sensible day? The interior minister of the coup government announced that 20 "terrorists" were killed in Mariupol. Journalists and hospital staff counted only three dead. Why is the coup government exaggerating the number of dead?

I am slowly coming to the opinion that the Kiev government and its CIA handlers are intentionally pouring oil into the fire. Do they know what they are doing? Do they know that they will have no chance to win should the east really rise up against them?

To them and everyone I recommend to read this probably first sane piece on Ukraine in the U.S. foreign policy media: Six Mistakes the West Has Made (and Continues to Make) in Ukraine. Excerpt:

Historians of the future will wonder greatly at the forbearance that Russia has shown in wielding its potentially vast influence (the ease with which Crimea was taken by Russia should be highly instructive), in contrast to the boldness verging on recklessness with which the United States and EU have sought to manipulate the political outcome in Kiev.

Recognizing the indigenous nature of Ukraine’s current problems, which often go back to promises left unfulfilled by past Ukrainian governments, is therefore a necessary first step toward dealing with them realistically. But it is only the first step. The next is to apply meaningful pressure on the interim government to do what it has thus far refused to do—establish a government of national unity.

Posted by b on May 9, 2014 at 16:48 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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Zico

Exactly. Where is Amnesty when it comes to ukraine? they have been completly silent!

Posted by: Anonymous | May 10 2014 7:43 utc | 101

scalawag @ 96

Poland has absolutely zero influence on anything.

Exactly!

Poland is the one country in the EU who actually needs the EU for her survival more than anyone else. Yet, they're the most gung-ho on anything anti-Russian. If Germany decides to leave the EU tomorrow, the whole system will collapse. Whereas if Poland leaves the EU tomorrow, nobody will shed a tear.. In fact, many European states, who feel burdened with the influx of Polish citizens will rejoice.

This is the sad state of affairs.

Posted by: Zico | May 10 2014 7:43 utc | 102

ToivoS @93
Very interesting! Do you have a reference supporting these claims?

Posted by: Phantastron | May 10 2014 7:43 utc | 103

Posted by: somebody | May 10, 2014 3:38:43 AM | 98

Are you "b"?

Posted by: scalawag | May 10 2014 7:46 utc | 104

Take a look at the hate Graham get for being a great journalist.

https://twitter.com/GrahamWP_UK/status/464829386450300928

Posted by: Anonymous | May 10 2014 7:59 utc | 105

Posted by: scalawag | May 10, 2014 3:46:33 AM | 102

no, I said have mercy on him.

Posted by: somebody | May 10 2014 8:07 utc | 106

Posted by: Anonymous | May 10, 2014 3:59:10 AM | 103

The more effective one is in bypassing their western propaganda machine, the more Tel Aviv & co. sic their subhuman garbage on one.

Posted by: scalawag | May 10 2014 8:09 utc | 107

Posted by: Anonymous | May 10, 2014 3:59:10 AM | 103

I do keep wondering about his claim that 100 people got killed in Mariupol - "Kyiv government" seems to claim 20, Human Rights Watch insists on 7 confirmed, actually very strongly insists as in having gone to all the hospitals.

In other news it seems to be difficult to find out what did take place - some reports point to a police mutiny.

Posted by: somebody | May 10 2014 8:15 utc | 108

plus 106) Human Rights Watch is clearly taking sides, this is the same Anna Neistat on Syria - so she is a soft power civil war specialists really.

The Red Cross is neutral and their people have been released. They have the very wise policy of not doing public statements. But there are bound to be lots of unprofessional people with weapons around by now.

If Graham can come up with proof for the 100 dead Human Rights Watch is clearly exposed - they have been before I know, but it would be important for the Ukraine conflict.

Posted by: somebody | May 10 2014 8:22 utc | 109

Every human rights groups repeat obama/nato/eu propaganda.

On nato btw just look how dangerous they are:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Urud5IXGXI8

:)

Posted by: Anonymous | May 10 2014 8:25 utc | 110

Posted by: somebody | May 10, 2014 4:15:09 AM | 106

Posted by: somebody | May 10, 2014 4:22:47 AM | 107

That is clearly an attempt to smear Graham to discredit what he reports. His tweets on it clearly referenced medical people telling him the info by phone.

Not very honest, somebody, but your standard MO here.

Posted by: scalawags | May 10 2014 8:33 utc | 111

Posted by: scalawags | May 10, 2014 4:33:14 AM | 109

Well, he needs to do more than just say, I got one source.
He did not say, I saw with my own eyes. Or I got it on video.

RT mixes news that are not reported in the Western media with disinformation. And they have every reason to put the numbers up.

Let's see what transpires. In Odessa Graham was right.

Posted by: somebody | May 10 2014 8:45 utc | 112

Posted by: somebody | May 10, 2014 4:45:33 AM | 110

That is a repeat of the same attempted smear. Which western agency pays your wages?

Posted by: scalawag | May 10 2014 8:48 utc | 113

Who cares if Graham was wrong on a number, there are always different numbers when it comes to massacres. In fact he doesnt say it was 100 people but that it could be. Big difference!

As Scalawag said, its just a way to discredit him.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 10 2014 9:02 utc | 114

112) He got very aggressive on the number. I would be good to see he can back it up.

As is the "Kyiv government" has a reason to raise the number - from 7 to 20 - to boast about their "anti-terrorist" operation and separatists have a reason to make it a massacre - from 7 to 100. But as I said Graham was right in Odessa, he may be this time. There need to be other sources corroborating or proof. The agenda of Human Rights Watch of course has an incentive to keep it low.

Fair reporting from the Independent on Mariupol - if it was a shootout with local police where are the policemen.

Posted by: somebody | May 10 2014 9:10 utc | 115

somebody

1. he didnt get any agressive in the post I posted earlier, please post his "aggressivness".
2. he did back the CLAIM up (hospital in town, doctor)

Again who caers if hes wrong, this debate is just a way to discredit him.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 10 2014 9:28 utc | 116

RT on the speech of that Western Ukrainian mayor implanted into Kherson

giving the historical Kherson background

“All those arrived were stripped naked and led to the trench,” eyewitness A. K. Mestkovsky recalled in V. Baraniuk’s historic study of Hitler’s ‘liberation’ of Soviet ‘sub-humans’ in Kherson region. “The adult women and the elderly were stripped to their underwear, placed by the trench on their knees, and shot by the machine guns.”

In the autumn of 1941, about 10,000 Jews were killed in the city of Kherson alone. It is estimated that at least 47,000 Red Army soldiers died while force-crossing the Dnieper as they tried to liberate the city from the Nazis.

plus this statement

Any attempts to rewrite history and equate executors with their victims are unacceptable, the Russian leadership continues to stress. Russian President Vladimir Putin has numerously reiterated Russia's position on the Soviet nation’s struggle during the Great Patriotic War and said future generations should know the truth about WWII heroes.

“We will always guard this sacred, unfading truth, and we will not allow the heroes to be betrayed or forgotten – everyone who saved peace on the planet, not sparing oneself [from death],” Putin said at the Red Square parade on May 9.

It is a complete trainwreck. A German-Austrian-Russian-Ukrainian-Belorussian-Polish-Rumanian-Bulgarian-Hungarian-Israeli (did I forget anybody? ok. Lithuanian, Estonian, Finnish) history commission would be a good idea. It is not that expensive. Let us open all the archives.

Posted by: somebody | May 10 2014 9:37 utc | 117

Oh dear. Russia has found a way to counter color revolutions.

Putin celebrates victory Suggestions that President Putin has backed down over Ukraine are misplaced. Instead, he has cause to celebrate after a meeting with the OSCE gave him exactly what he wanted. ... Ukraine, and to some extent Syria before it, have set the pattern for future use by Russia of unconventional warfare to achieve its objectives without overt invasion.

The danger is of a return to an era of superpower proxy wars - but using a distinct new form of unconventional warfare, elaborated by Russian military thinkers over recent years when considering what they see as the new, indistinct boundaries between war and peace. As seen with the example of Ukraine, full-scale military intervention is both unnecessary for Russia to achieve its aims, and undesirable; Russian objectives have been met primarily by diplomatic, information and economic means, with both threatened and actual military action playing only a minor role.

Wow.

Posted by: somebody | May 10 2014 10:05 utc | 118

Xymphora is apparently Canadian, as is Penny, which I spose, indicates that at least not all Canadians are clueless assclowns, and can actually operate their brain in a useful manner,

Some facts:

  • As Russia controls the Ukrainian energy supply, Ukraine, even if it had a functioning army, has no ability to wage war of any kind against Russia.

  • As Russia controls the Ukrainian energy supply, and can deny future supply, Ukraine has no negotiating position with respect to paying its energy bill to the Russians.

  • To emphasize all the bullshit that is flying around, a lot of the IMF refinancing is going to pay the money owed to Gazprom (ha!).

  • The people running Ukraine now are the people voted out for their extreme corruption mostly due to energy deals made with the Russians, energy deals which they now want to get out of paying for (ha, ha!)!

  • As there won't be a war between Ukraine and Russia, fantasies about WWIII and nuclear Armageddon are just fantasies (cue the neocon tears).

One for the C.A.C.L.-ing Clueless Ass-Clowns out there - why would the IMF fix-it so that Russian gas company Gazprom gets a couple billion in the bank?

Oh gosh and golly, quick, run!! It's a riddle wrapped in an enigma !!!

Posted by: lol | May 10 2014 10:18 utc | 119

Graham Phillips can back up his claim on wrong Human Rights Watch numbers

- more will come out.

Germans should put pressure on Angela Merkel to disassociate from the "Kyiv government"/criminals

Posted by: somebody | May 10 2014 10:46 utc | 120

Grieved: thanks for the link to the May 9th parade, inspirational people. You probably noticed the clip showing messages on a wall, in particular about fracking + shale gas + SHELL - these people know what's behind all this US-led destabilisation: OIL + ENERGY. The clip is around 2:05 (two minutes five seconds into the video).
These are some of the posts on the wall:
'SHELL bunch of bloody MANIACS', 'SHELL killing us because of SHALE GAS' amongst other posts using Cyrillic language...

Posted by: somuchtolearn | May 10 2014 11:37 utc | 121

As is the "Kyiv government" has a reason to raise the number - from 7 to 20 - to boast about their "anti-terrorist" operation

Who exactly would the "boast" to with high numbers of killed civilians?

Posted by: peter radiator | May 10 2014 12:09 utc | 122

@peter radiator | 120

Who exactly would the "boast" to with high numbers of killed civilians?

a) To get extra "street cred" in crowd of radicals in W.Ukraine. Much like Tymoshenko's tape of nuking Russian population.

b) Neonazis might get paid by the head. Long standing Americans tradition of "paying by the scalp". Like Islamists in Syria and elsewhere get paid for it, some of Ukraine's neonazis participated in war against Syria and in Chechenia too.

c) Both of the above?

Maybe I'm missing something too, its hard to get the logic of the psychopaths.

Posted by: Harry | May 10 2014 12:28 utc | 123

Posted by: Harry | May 10, 2014 8:28:06 AM | 121

Lots of more possible reasons:

d) knowing the number is much larger so managing expectations to hedge against the outrage

e) telling the backers pushing them they did what they could but obviously is counterproductive

National Guards on the videos clearly look panicked and overreact to people heckling them, I think they likely got shot at under the cover of unarmed civilians by whatever interested party, there might have been again incidences of shooting at both sides. I think some fires were lit for dramatic media images.

The whole action clearly sounds like something no rational professional military would design so yes - payment of oligarch backer highly likely.

Posted by: somebody | May 10 2014 12:47 utc | 124

122 plus f) on some images you see the National Guard accompanied by armed guys described as Pravy Sektor who might have had a shooting policy of their own.

Quite likely "Kyiv government" does not know how many people got shot and has to make up numbers.

Posted by: somebody | May 10 2014 12:50 utc | 125

@117 I know, I know, never respond to lol, but his observation about Canadians reminded me of something. I find Canadians have a healthy skepticism when it comes to propaganda....

http://www.richardcrouse.ca/mike-myers-canada-is-the-essence-of-not-being-by-richard-crouse/

Posted by: dh | May 10 2014 13:49 utc | 126

BBC propaganda and the shooting of civilians in Mariupol

Shows how the BBC cut a video to manipulate the narrative.

Posted by: somebody | May 10 2014 14:47 utc | 127

@JSorrentine (#2)

I think vacillating between the 'it's really all just a huge misunderstanding!' and 'these guys have all been war criminals from the start' is basically a defence mechanism to protect yourself from such extreme cognitive dissonance.

I'm not sure if you're familiar with the movie Starship Troopers but it kind of draws an interesting parallel to the opposing statements I mention above. Basically throughout the entire movie you see the buildup to war from the human side(they are fighting an insect species), the militarization of the youth, the extreme government propaganda disguised as news, etc. It's done in such a clever way that at the end you look back and realize that the humans were the bad guys all along.

I really think that something similar has occurred in the US and the reason why it seems so hard for everyone to look critically at US actions in each individual case is that doing so presents a real danger of unraveling their entire conception of their country and it's place in the world. And that's a big thing to ask anyone to do.

(Let me just add that the above is referencing the general public and not the leadership/govt)

Posted by: WG | May 10 2014 15:01 utc | 128

Why dont start violent nazigroups in the west and see how west like it? Lets see how obama would embrace nazism. Oh that would be bad right? You dont want nazis running around obama in your own country, they could kill someone and even take power!

Posted by: Anonymous | May 10 2014 15:12 utc | 129

Toivo Re: global vaccination campaigns - if there is in fact a resurgence of Polio in Pakistan(all reports of this 'fact' come from orgs like the Gates Foundation) it probably has more to do w a crumbling infrastructure than a failure of the 'vaccination campaign', which is but a blip in recent history. In fact, all around the 3rd world the vaccination campaigns are failing in their purpose(or are they?) because of their massive injurious side effects - the vaccines we dole out to the third world still contain mercury and are found to be improperly stored and/or expired in countless cases. Nearly 50,000 people were paralyzed by the polio vaccine in India recently. A new term was coined to cover the crime; "Non-Polio" Acute Flaccid Paralysis - in other words, the Polio vaccine gave a bunch of people ... Polio. And India has been declared "Polio-free".

The campaigns in Chad and Uganda have produced epidemics of narcolepsy and severe autistic-like cases, to the point they have to tether these injured children like dogs in the vaccinated villages so they won't wander off and be eaten. So when the 'Islamists', wherever, claim that these campaigns are 'sterilizing' their people, it's really not far off. Children with vaccine injuries/reactions will likely not reproduce.

Really it's just a game to the globalists, territory to conquer and cleanse, and the checking of the 'humanitarianism, served' box in their grim tally. The CIA skullduggery wrt Bin Laden can only be described as a boon to awareness regarding this issue - 180 degree difference from the western meme you've presented I'm afraid, but there it is.

Posted by: L Bean | May 10 2014 15:23 utc | 130

Here is a long continuous video showing the build up to the mass shooting at the cross roads in Mariaupol. It puts the whole episode into context.

At the cross roads, it takes the junta squad about 25 minutes to cross. About 31 minutes in, the man in the middle of road (attempting to slow down troop carriers, from other videos) is shot in the shoulder. At about 34 minutes, the last 'soldier' crosses over, then shooting appears to start en masse with the kneeling man shot first, then the man with a camera standing next to him, then the man with the chair and finally the man shot in the head.

Posted by: Yonatan | May 10 2014 16:15 utc | 131

Generally, if you look at it, most "russian propaganda" a few days later becomes a correct description of reality, while the western "honest reporting" quitely retracts it's former bullshit (the "green men" started it all in Donetsk, it's all "Russian special forces", people are happy with prowestern Putsch government, there are no Neonazis, Timoshenko is a good woman, and so on). West is caught pants down lying every day. Maybe that's why many people here are getting more and more angry at the hypocrisy of their governments and media. And more and more people wonder why it should be the US business and why they are so involved in Ucraine. And then they find the answer: geopolitics. Every day this absurd theatre goes on, the west looks uglier and more power-drunken, which seems to lead to bad decisions like alcohol consumption does. People of Eastern Ukraine, know that a majority here supports you and not the disgusting Maidan types disguised as "National Guard". Do not listen to our gov's, they are just Washingtons echo-chamber and do not have popular support in this. Good luck with the referendum, take care, greetz from Germany.

Posted by: reader474738 | May 10 2014 16:25 utc | 132

reader474738

+1 Its crazy!

In fact I save your comment because its such a good summary.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 10 2014 16:55 utc | 133

Kiev dreams up fake ballot of referendum forms scam and gets busted in Slavyansyk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5GTdyKbon4&feature=youtu.be> Video

Posted by: rouge | May 10 2014 17:06 utc | 134

Posted by: rouge | May 10, 2014 1:06:58 PM | 134

Your link got messed up. Cleaned it up here.

Link to 10 мая, в Славянске изъяли 100 тыс 'проголосовавших' бюллетеней

The CIA/Mossad also created a fake duplicate site of one of the anti-junta's websites.

Link to СБ Украины создала клон сайта народной армии юго-востока

The security service of Ukraine has created a clone site of the people's army of the South-East

On the new website posted a provocative materials, designed to distract Ukrainians from mass murder in the House of trade unions.

The west is trying every trick they know, from mass murder terrorism to English public schoolboi "dirty tricks".

Posted by: scalawag | May 10 2014 17:26 utc | 135

A quite complete and fair account of what happened yesterday in Mariupol: Ukraine: deaths in the east fuel tension as separatists push ahead with poll

There are many in Mariupol and across eastern Ukraine who are horrified by the armed uprising; some of them are ethnic Ukrainians, others are simply middle-class professionals or intellectuals and fear that events here could slip into anarchic violence. Although they try to keep quiet in the current atmosphere, supporters of Ukrainian unity are numerous.

Nevertheless, Kiev's labelling of those seizing buildings here as "terrorists" has not helped to calm tensions, and the Ukrainian government appears to be in denial that increasingly large swaths of the population are backing the resistance movement, spurred on by the Russian media and the rumour mill, and increasingly by the bloody death toll from Kiev's "anti-terror" manoeuvres.

People are quite confused and angry and Kiev is pouring oil into the fire.

Posted by: b | May 10 2014 17:41 utc | 136

Another example of western (American) childish "New York waiter-ish" behavior:

Link to Рогозин прибыл в Москву из Приднестровья «тропами ВПК»

The USA is ordering its puppets to close their air space to flights by Russian government officials and diplomats. The official leaders in the west, and those they use to come up with policy decisions, belong in an elementary school yard, not in government positions.

Posted by: scalawag | May 10 2014 17:44 utc | 137

@136 - thanks. that is a fairly informative and relatively neutral article coming from the guardian (for a change).. a few of the commentators hit the nail on the head. "The illegal interim president Oleksandr Turchynov said that the referendum was illegal…" or "Shooting and burning civilians alive is legal, holding a referendum is illegal."

Posted by: james | May 11 2014 5:43 utc | 138

A quite complete and fair account of what happened yesterday in Mariupol

that is a fairly informative and relatively neutral article coming from the guardian

One of the comments after that piece of not so subtle Guardian disinformation.

MJMaguire

10 May 2014 5:54pm
Recommend
307

What a truly appalling piece of one-sided nonsense this article is. Who is commissioning the Guardian to write this? The whole tenor of the article is that "pro-Russian separatists" are running amuck in Mariupol - yet even on BBC and ITV News Friday evening, Ukrainian soldiers were shown firing at unarmed civilians, prompting James Mates of ITV (no friend of Russia) to comment: "this is a curious way of persuading ordinary people that their future lies with Ukraine". The Guardian's reporting on Ukraine is becoming increasingly bizarre.

One can imagine what was written in the comments the Guardian removed.

The article repeated the lies of the junta and the US State department, while adding "humanitarian touches" to give it an air of objectivity. It's a standard piece of Guardian disinformation. Use a few hard to hide truths to sell a lot of lies and maintain the pro-western narrative. That's the role of the Guardian. Always useful to see who promotes these manipulative pieces as the "real thing", though.

Posted by: scalawag | May 11 2014 6:13 utc | 139

Scalawag, I am sure you're right. It is to be hoped that like Mr pragma, you do not disappear down the black hole of forgetfulness.

:-)

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 11 2014 6:50 utc | 140

Link to Ukraine Military Attacks Anti-Coup Civilians, US Silent

It seems that to the US government, facts simply do not matter. In pre-February 22 Kiev, the legitimate government was warned against using any force to put down an armed revolt. That rebellion, now in power, is actually encouraged by the US to use military force against civilians in eastern Ukraine.

And force it uses. Here, protesters armed only with folding chairs found themselves under live fire from Kiev forces. Warning: two unarmed protesters are shot in the video, which is extremely graphic. One of them is shot in the head, to the horror of the crowd all around him. Here is another angle.

Here, Kiev forces open fire on a police station in Mariupol that announced it would no longer take orders from Kiev. You can see one of the troops -- in a civilian neighborhood -- fire a rocket-propelled grenade directly into the police headquarters. The police building was demolished with an unknown number of dead.

Still, protesters continue to resist the rule of Kiev. Today, as the pro-Kiev governor of Kerson oblast apparently spoke fondly of Hitler's forces trying to "liberate" Ukraine from communist rule, one brave mother could take it no longer. She marched right up to the podium (starting at 1:40) with her baby in arms, told the politician off, grabbed his microphone, and threw it to the ground. That's non-violent resistance at its best.

Things weren't much better for coup-installed president Turchynov and prime minister Yatsenyuk. In Kiev, capitol of the revolution, they were heckled by the crowd at the Victory Day gathering, who drowned them out chanting "Hitler Kaputt! Bandera Kaputt!"

Posted by: scalawag | May 11 2014 6:50 utc | 141

oh geez.. disinfo, but no quoting of the article to point out the 'disinfo'..just rely on someone else's comment. i like that. classy, lol..

Posted by: james | May 11 2014 6:56 utc | 142

selective editing is always welcome.. it is what propagandists do too..

Posted by: james | May 11 2014 7:00 utc | 143

Posted by: james | May 11, 2014 2:56:37 AM | 142

"oh geez.. disinfo, but no quoting of the article to point out the 'disinfo'..just rely on someone else's comment. i like that. classy, lol.."

Posted by: james | May 11, 2014 3:00:45 AM | 143

"selective editing is always welcome.. it is what propagandists do too.."

Calm down, james, you'll blow a gasket. Everybody knows the Guardian is a disinformation purveyor. Even Craig Murray called them a neo-con rag.

"This is very sad for me, as I remember the days when the Guardian was a newspaper and not a Blairite neo-con rag. I think that what the Guardian/Observer has become under the war criminal supporting White, Tisdall, Wintour, Toynbee and Cohen is a national disaster. Rusbridger is just a cypher in a very bad wig."

Posted by: scalawag | May 11 2014 7:18 utc | 144

But Craig Murray is even worse, in his own way. He is a remorseful neolib with a whole caveat of transgressions hiding beneath the fold, so to speak. Anyway, we ought to pay Rusbridger for having helped to develop the most exquisite disinfo tango, danced by the mincing feet of Graun reporters to the sound of breaking hard disks.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 11 2014 11:14 utc | 145

I just watched Zero: An Investigation Into 9/11

Demian, Zero is definitely worth watching. If you have not already seen it, New Pearl Harbor (not simply a film version of the Griffin book, though he is an advisor) is the best single movie/video on 9/11 that I've seen (though not particularly good from an artistic p.o.v.). It does waste time overplaying the Pearl Harbor analogy, imo (which is particularly odd considering it doesn't stick to a LIHOP position).

http://www.luogocomune.net/site/modules/sections/index.php?op=viewarticle&artid=167

On the subject of Al Qaeda ("Al Qaeda") being run by the U.S./NATO to further political goals, the conversations Sibel Edmonds and James Corbett had on Gladio Plan B are essential:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AARtO88G5Ag&list=PLHLlBR3m0EExw2SbKlJPgN-CSZY5-n8GF

Apologies if you are already familiar with these. (Commenters here are probably better informed than I am, overall.)

Posted by: RudyM | May 11 2014 16:19 utc | 146

scalawag, i didn't think you would articulate what you thought was wrong about the article.. cutting and pasting from your links is all you seem capable of doing.

Posted by: james | May 11 2014 16:29 utc | 147

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