Ukraine: Serious Media Largely Confirm Donetsk Poll Results
The often criticized main stream media can sometimes do a good job. Here we have a case where some journalists really make a difference.
Videos of yesterdays referendum in east Ukraine showed seemingly high turnout with most of those taking part voting yes. Still the around 80% turnout numbers put out by the people who had called for those votes and did the counting are somewhat dubious. As are the coup-government claims of some 30% turnout. How would Kiev know? But some real journalistic work helps to gauge the numbers validity:
DONETSK, Ukraine — Residents of two regions of eastern Ukraine turned out in significant numbers Sunday to vote in support of self-rule in a referendum that threatens to deepen divisions in a country already heading perilously toward civil war.
...
There were no independent exit polls Sunday. But it did appear that turnout was relatively high. Journalists from several Western news organizations interviewed 186 residents in the Donetsk region, away from polling stations, and found that 116 had cast ballots or intended to. A total of 122 favored self-determination. The results were not scientific but reflected the level of interest in the referendum.
According to the German FAZ, whose correspondent took some of the interviews, the following media took part:
Der Spiegel, Die Welt, Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, Kyodo News Agency, Süddeutsche Zeitung, The Irish Times, The Washington Post, ZDF.
Most of these are German but had so far largely followed the propaganda filled, pro-Kiev "western" view. Now they find, in their admittedly unscientific poll, that about two third of the people in the Donetzk and Luhansk regions are in favor of more autonomy.
This is much larger share than one could have guessed from previous polls. But those polls were taken before the coup government in Kiev opened its fight against "terrorists" in the east and before right wing militia and mob mass-killed people in Odessa and Mariupol. As the Washington Post notes:
Residents’ attitudes appear to have hardened considerably with the deaths of dozens of pro-Russian activists in the city of Odessa this month and with reports that troops fired at a crowd in Mariupol last week.
In Ukraine's political circles there now seems to be a bit of turnaround behind the scenes moving against the coup-government's current path. On Sunday the richest Ukrainian oligarch Ahmetov announced to provide neutral security forces for Mariupol and today the Kiev imposed governor of Donetzk Taruta called for an end of the "anti-terrorism" operation Kiev has been pushing against the east. If yesterday's poll helps to bring up more of such voices it was already well worth the effort.
Posted by b on May 12, 2014 at 9:40 UTC | Permalink
« previous pagesomebody
re:kyivpost
I would stay away from that propaganda site.
Posted by: Anonymous | May 12, 2014 1:00:55 PM | 32
It is all propaganda. It is interesting to see what the propaganda agrees on and when it changes its track. The Kyiv post has changed its track.
Plus 92) Ukrainian/Nationalist language policy - Austria against Slav nationalism and Russian language - it is interesting that this - again - has been done via Austria and Poland
Posted by: somebody | May 13 2014 8:20 utc | 102
@sabicas #99:
I think that Pussy Riot illustrates perfectly that postmodernism/identity politics = the new fascism.
Posted by: peter radiator | May 13, 2014 3:08:40 AM | 93
Thanks for the summary. I guess Europe has the power to not do it. If they are not capable of "not doing it" as a collective it will mean a split, as Hungary, Bulgaria, Italy, Greece et al presumably will insist on South Stream - and Germany/France will have to chose. France already said they will deliver their military hardware to Russia. Even Britain is not keen on sanctions. Their financial industry - which is Britains main industry nowadays - has suffered already.
Certainly Europe now has the maximum incentive/pressure to solve the Ukrainian crisis. Which is good news to Ukrainian people.
Posted by: somebody | May 13 2014 8:31 utc | 104
Mina, I think Marine and Jean-Marie do a 'good cop/bad cop' routine with Jean-Marie playing the bad cop, exactly aimed at the FN's neo-Nazis and anti-immigrant base. It's a pretty good routine as Marine is thereby able to appeal to a much larger slice of the electorate. EU upcoming election is going to be very interesting.
Yes, 'fun at dinner' - they're laughing hysterically about the clever way they rebranded the FN.
Posted by: okie farmer | May 13 2014 8:32 utc | 105
@104
Azerbaijan and France sign cooperation deals
News | 12.05.2014 | 17:02
Azerbaijan will continue contributing to Europe’s energy security. “Projects for developing the Shakh Deniz gas field, building the Trans-Anatolian and Trans-Adriatic gas pipelines are priority for Europe. A total of 45 billion dollars will be invested in them. Their implementation will change the energy world map,” Aliyev said.
Azerbaijan is one of France’s major partners, primarily in the energy sector, Hollande said.
Many oil and gas companies “want to take part in projects in Azerbaijan”, he said.
http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/05/12/azerbaijan-and-france-sign-cooperation-deals.html
Posted by: okie farmer | May 13 2014 8:41 utc | 106
Posted by: Demian | May 13, 2014 4:31:30 AM | 103
:-))
I would think Pussy Riot is an attempt of promoting artificial wedge issues to split society
Before the presidential elections of 2012, the Russian opposition organized various protests and rallies, initiating a debate on corruption and bureaucracy. Russian blogs were full of discussions about the Russian Orthodox Church as a social institution, in particular Patriarch Kirill’s role in society. These discussions were fueled by Pussy Riot’s performance in the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour (February 2012) and Patriarch Kirill’s luxurious apartment in the center of Moscow (March/April 2012). I have analyzed the entries made in 20 blogs between February and May 2012 in order to see whether there exists a correlation between a blogger’s religious identity and his/her political position. Researched blogs were divided into four groups: Evangelical Christianity, Fundamentalist Orthodox, Liberal Orthodox, and Conservative Orthodox.Ekaterina Grishaeva is Assistant Professor of Religious Studies at Ural Federal University, Yekaterinburg and a Junior Visiting Fellow at the IWM.
Back to the middle ages and the 30 year war.
Posted by: somebody | May 13 2014 8:41 utc | 107
Nazism: History is Repeating itself in Ukraine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaaiTZk6Dig
Posted by: Paty Kerry | May 13 2014 8:42 utc | 108
#104
One of them, I guess it was Nuland iirc, says that the pressure that "sectoral sanctions" (that means: fewer gas from russia, I'd freely translate) would cause to the EU is very unevenely allocated. Obviously what she means is that Germany would suffer hard, while the UK could go on pretty well without russian gas. So, she says, one of the prerequisites for the EU to impose sectoral sanctions is to distribute the suffering somewhat more evenly. That might be an interesting thing to look out for. Will UK, FR and GER find a way to divide the economic pressure evenly? If so, "sectoral sanctions" are to come. The US will watch and laugh while the EU and russia strangle each other. (at least that's the plan, it seems).
Really, the linked hearing is filled with so many hints on what the US (non-)strategy is, I wonder that this has been made public. The installation of the TTIP seems to be very important as well, to keep the EU from doing independent deals with Russia. This will be accelerated.
Posted by: peter radiator | May 13 2014 8:42 utc | 109
from a year ago, but still very relevant:
The Conundrum of the Southern Gas Corridor: What are the Risks for Europe and Azerbaijan?
For more than ten years harsh negotiations among different oil majors and pipeline consortia have been taking place about the Southern Gas Corridor, all of them seeking to transit 10 bcm/year of natural gas that will be produced from the Shah Deniz giant gas field of Azerbaijan to the European Union. As of today, no Final Investment Decision (FID) has been reached neither for the preferred pipeline route to Europe, nor for the production of the second phase of Shah Deniz.
Yet a decision has to be made. Europe will remain a major gas importer as clearly shown by the International Energy Agency’s scenarios for 2035. Even if shale gas may be a game-changer as far as Chinese needs for gas imports are concerned, many uncertainties remain regarding the risk of the EU competing with China in the global market for natural gas imports. Consequently the EU needs to secure its gas supplies. What is at stake is nothing but its competitiveness in the world economy. In the words of EU Commissioner for Energy, Günther Oettinger, “globally, demand growth poses a threat to security of supply and, with its impact on prices, our economic competitiveness.”
In this context, the EU has to quickly make a decision regarding the Southern Gas Corridor unless the three major risks for the realization of the Southern Gas Corridor become too heavy. First, the delay of the FID of the Shah Deniz Consortium in Azerbaijan causes an acceleration of the economic and geopolitical costs which threaten the energy security of Europe. Associated with that risk is the potential internal disagreement between SOCAR, the State Oil Company of Azerbaijan, and BP, the two most important shareholders of the Shah Deniz consortium. Second, the development of South Stream poses a risk for the delivery of Azerbaijani gas to Europe via the Southern Gas Corridor. Gazprom is indeed already ahead of the geopolitical rivalry, since the construction of South Stream was officially inaugurated, last December 2012, by Russian President Vladimir Putin. Gazprom is aiming to construct first the South Stream, and sign new gas supply contracts with the South Eastern (S.E.) European countries, in order to weaken both commercially and geopolitically the pipelines under design, namely Nabucco West, Trans Adriatic Pipeline (TAP) and Trans Anatolian Pipeline (TANAP). Third, the worsening of the Eurozone crisis, with the potential of further political and economic instability, is a major risk for the opening of the Southern Corridor, as it makes the construction of the gas infrastructure more expensive and also weakens the political will. In particular, in the context of the Greek debt crisis and its effect on the Eurozone, an additional risk is linked to the privatization of the Greek gas industry DEPA and DESFA. Gazprom is the front runner in winning the bid for the Greek privatization, and if the Russian gas monopoly was to acquire the gas industry of Greece, which has a crucial geostrategic position being one of the only two entry points for the Azerbaijani gas to EU via an onshore pipeline, then the Southern Gas Corridor would meet an additional strategic (geo)political obstacle.
The future challenge for the Southern gas Corridor lies in its efficient opening with the Shah Deniz gas supplies and with the completion of a credible gas infrastructure that will deliver future gas supplies to the EU from the Caspian region. This requires strong leadership and unwavering will from the governments, the oil majors and the gas pipeline consortia.
We are at the most critical stage of this project. Which pipeline will deliver the Shah Deniz gas to the European Union (EY): Nabucco West or Trans Adriatic Pipeline (TAP)? What is the role of Trans Anatolian Pipeline (TANAP)? A decision made today will enable the EU to build its own margins of manoeuver and secure its long-term security of gas supply.
Click here to read the paper in full.
http://www.naturalgaseurope.com/southern-gas-corridor-risks-for-europe-azerbaijan
Posted by: okie farmer | May 13 2014 8:51 utc | 110
All Wars Are Bankers' Wars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfEBupAeo4
Written and spoken by Michael Rivero. The written version is here:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/allwarsarebankerwars.php
Posted by: Paty Kerry | May 13 2014 8:52 utc | 111
Posted by: peter radiator | May 13, 2014 4:42:12 AM | 109
What they supposedly mean is a European gas pool - buying collectively and distributing evenly. Russia has different prices for different European countries.
Frankly, it makes sense, but would lead to Germany being less competitive.
Posted by: somebody | May 13 2014 9:00 utc | 112
Pepe's latest
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-130514.html
Posted by: Mina | May 13 2014 9:02 utc | 113
Pepe today
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-130514.html
Posted by: okie farmer | May 13 2014 9:03 utc | 114
Oops, Mina, didn't mean to step on you. By less than a minute, no less! :)
Posted by: okie farmer | May 13 2014 9:04 utc | 115
Posted by: okie farmer | May 13, 2014 4:51:46 AM | 110
:-))
Putin stirs Azeri angst Russia will seek to extend sway - Bloomberg
“If the West doesn’t do anything to stop Russia, they will be emboldened to take back Azerbaijan by force as they did a hundred years ago,” said Zahir Rahimov, a 39-year-old resident of Baku, referring to the Bolshevik takeover.Officials already complain about feeling the Kremlin’s pressure. The push from Moscow to join Putin’s new customs union, a project he wants to rival the European Union, is similar to the squeeze put on Ukraine, according to Siyavus Novruzov, a senior member of the ruling New Azerbaijan Party.
Of course. Who has been first to squeeze Ukraine?
Posted by: somebody | May 13 2014 9:06 utc | 116
The Odessa Massacre - What REALLY Happened
Published on May 12, 2014
Contrary to what the mainstream media has tried to convince you, it's not at all a mystery how the fire started in Odessa, Ukraine and it's not at all a mystery who started it. We owe it to the victims to expose what really happened.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=H4dJRnI-X8Q
Posted by: Paty Kerry | May 13 2014 9:08 utc | 117
somebody, I saw that article. This from Stratfor this morning.
http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/borderlands-view-azerbaijan?utm_source=freelist-f&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20140512&utm_term=Gweekly&utm_content=readmore
clip/Baku is strategic again today, partly because of oil. I've started the journey here partly by convenience and partly because Azerbaijan is key to any counter-Russian strategy that might emerge.
clip/Withholding energy would be part of any Russian counter to Western pressure, even if Russia were to suffer itself. Any strategy against Russia must address the energy issue, begin with Azerbaijan, and be about more than production. Azerbaijan is not a major producer of gas compared to oil. On the other side of the Caspian Sea, however, Turkmenistan is. Its resources, coupled with Azerbaijan's, would provide a significant alternative to Russian energy. Turkmenistan has an interest in not selling through Russia and would be interested in a Trans-Caspian pipeline. That pipeline would have to pass through Azerbaijan, connecting onward to infrastructure in Turkey. Assuming Moscow had no effective counters, this would begin to provide a serious alternative to Russian energy and decrease Moscow's leverage. But this would all depend on Baku's willingness and ability to resist pressure from every direction.
etc
Read more: Borderlands: The View from Azerbaijan | Stratfor
Follow us: @stratfor on Twitter | Stratfor on Facebook
Posted by: okie farmer | May 13 2014 9:26 utc | 118
Posted by: okie farmer | May 13, 2014 5:26:02 AM | 118
Yep. Thanks. They are turning events around - again - not Putin is turning his eyes to Azerbaijan now, the West is, heating things up again.
Reminder from 2012 - Hillary Clinton
U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has described efforts to promote greater economic integration in Eurasia as “a move to re-Sovietize the region.”Clinton made the comments while talking to lawyers and civil society advocates who came to attend an international conference in Dublin on December 6.
Clinton pointed to Russian-led efforts like a Customs Union that includes Belarus and Kazakhstan.
“We know what the goal is and we are trying to figure out effective ways to slow down or prevent it," she said.
Russian presidential spokesman Dmitry Peskov called Clinton’s statement “a completely wrong understanding” of the situation.
“What we see on the territory of the ex-Soviet Union is a new type of integration, based solely on economic integration," Peskov said. "Any other integration is totally impossible in this world.”
In October, Russian President Vladimir Putin authored a newspaper article calling for a more deeply integrated “Eurasian Union.”
“There is no talk of re-forming the U.S.S.R. in some form," Putin wrote. "It would be naive to restore or copy what has been abandoned in the past but close integration -- on the basis of new values, politics, and economy -- is the order of the day.”
In Dublin, Clinton also criticized what she called the criminalization of civil-society efforts supported by the United States in countries like Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, and Turkmenistan.
She said governments in former Soviet countries "are becoming much more aggressive in trying to stifle dissent."
Clinton said the United States is trying hard to fight efforts to limit or eliminate its assistance for human rights organizations.
But she said Washington has “struck out so far” with Belarus, and she called Ukraine “one of our biggest disappointments."
Clinton added that there is “no response” from Turkmenistan” on human rights.
Do you think they will get lucky with Azerbaijan this way?
Oh, here it is - Human rights watch
“Hollande should make clear to Aliyev that the Yunuses’ freedom, and Mirgadirov’s, is of great importance to him, and to French-Azerbaijani relations,” Denber said.In a recent letter to Hollande, Human Rights Watch said that in the past year alone, Azerbaijani authorities have brought unfounded criminal charges, including narcotics and weapons possession, hooliganism, incitement to violence, and even treason, against at least 30 political activists, journalists, bloggers, and human rights defenders who have criticized the government.
Human Rights Watch documented many of these cases in a 2013 report. Twenty-three people whose cases are documented in the report are serving prison sentences ranging from 2 to 10 years on a variety of false charges. Among them are Ilgar Mammadov, a prominent political analyst and a chairman of a political opposition group, who was sentenced to seven years in prison in 2013, and Tofig Yagublu, deputy chair of the opposition political party Musavat, sentenced to five years in 2013. Both were convicted of bogus rioting charges. The French Foreign Ministry condemned Mammadov’s conviction.
“Mammadov’s case is already a priority for the French government, so all the more reason for Hollande to raise it at the highest levels in Baku,” Denber said.
Also among the 23 are eight pro-democracy youth activists sentenced on May 6, 2014, to terms ranging from six to eight years on bogus allegations that they planned to instigateviolence at a March 2013 protest.
At least seven others behind bars are awaiting trial.
So, the next color revolution Azerbaijan? Do you take bets?
Posted by: somebody | May 13 2014 9:50 utc | 119
another fun quote for turning things upside down - from the past
It is inadmissible to use country's territory for creation of political instability in the neighboring states - Georgian President, Mikheil Saakashvili, stated at the meeting with the United National Movement MPs, on Thursday, when commenting on the recent meeting of the representatives of Azerbaijani opposition, in Tbilisi, this week."We are well-aware that certain people are guided by the Russian leadership and are funded by them with the aim to prevent political stability in Azerbaijan," President Saakashvili stated. He added that 'political stability in Azerbaijan is a precondition for Georgia's political stability".
Posted by: somebody | May 13 2014 10:04 utc | 120
Syricide @Syricide May 11
Another vid at Krasnoarmeysk shooting, not very good. Man screams "they're not Ukrainians they are Americans!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hskGfvC-QM&feature=youtu.be
Posted by: brian | May 13 2014 10:07 utc | 121
somebody 02
They havent changed anything, why are you saying that?
Posted by: Anonymous | May 13 2014 10:08 utc | 122
somebody
Azerbaijan is western allied, why would there be a color revolution there?
Rather Belarus is the obvious aim for the neocons/warmongers.
Posted by: Anonymous | May 13 2014 10:10 utc | 123
Posted by: Anonymous | May 13, 2014 6:10:18 AM | 123
You would have called Yanoukovich and Ukraine Western allied until September 2013, wouldn't you?
Posted by: somebody | May 13 2014 10:49 utc | 124
Hard, cold look on what is going on - Forbes
Whatever the origins of the events in Ukraine, the United States is now engaged in a confrontation with Russia. The Russians believe that the United States was the prime mover behind regime change in Ukraine. At the very least, the Russians intend to reverse events in Ukraine. At most, the Russians have reached the conclusion that the United States intends to undermine Russia’s power. They will resist. The United States has the option of declining confrontation, engaging in meaningless sanctions against individuals and allowing events to take their course. Alternatively, the United States can choose to engage and confront the Russians.A failure to engage at this point would cause countries around Russia’s periphery, from Estonia to Azerbaijan, to conclude that with the United States withdrawn and Europe fragmented, they must reach an accommodation with Russia. This will expand Russian power and open the door to Russian influence spreading on the European Peninsula itself. yb>The United States has fought three wars (World War I, World War II and the Cold War) to prevent hegemonic domination of the region. Failure to engage would be a reversal of a century-old strategy.
...
The countries that were at risk from 1945 to 1989 are not the same as those at risk today. Many of these countries were part of the Soviet Union then, and the rest were Soviet satellites. The old alliance system was not built for this confrontation. The Estonia-Azerbaijan line has as its primary interest retaining sovereignty in the face of Russian power. The rest of Europe is not in jeopardy, and these countries are not prepared to commit financial and military efforts to a problem they believe can be managed with little risk to them. Therefore, any American strategy must bypass NATO or at the very least create new structures to organize the region.
Expect more madness. Let's hope there is no money to fund this.
Posted by: somebody | May 13 2014 11:04 utc | 125
plus 125) This here is George Friedman who wrote the above - it is not an uninfluential nobody.
Posted by: somebody | May 13 2014 11:06 utc | 126
Posted by: Anonymous | May 13, 2014 7:13:24 AM | 127
Because he was - in a way
From Wikipedia - NATO enlargement
Then, on 3 June 2010 the Ukrainian parliament voted to exclude the goal of "integration into Euro-Atlantic security and NATO membership" from the country's national security strategy in a bill drafted by Yanukovych himself.[140] The bill forbids Ukraine's membership of any military bloc, but allows for cooperation with alliances such as NATO.[141]
That is not pro Russia is it?
Posted by: somebody | May 13 2014 11:43 utc | 128
128 somebody
Because he was - in a way
Ok, why did you ask me then?
Posted by: Anonymous | May 13 2014 12:02 utc | 129
The mayor of Slovyansk speaks 'impolitely' below (bold highlighting added), having the audacity to speak against the oligarchs and for bigger pensions. Can't believe the Moscow Times can report Nikolai Zlobin's comments with a straight face:
Slovyansk Mayor Threatens Those Responsible for Economic Inequality The Moscow Times May 13 2014 13:38The separatist mayor of Slovyansk in eastern Ukraine has said that his people will "call to account" those responsible for economic inequality in the region and will impel foreign governments to recognize the separatist administration, according to an interview published Tuesday.
"There is injustice all around us, with people forcefully divided into rich and poor through fraudulent privatization operations," the self-styled people's mayor of Slovyansk, Vyacheslav Ponomaryov, told Rossiiskaya Gazeta. "In due time, we will call to account everyone who had something to do with it, because they were simply destroying us."
"They did not give us jobs or a living. They only raised prices, filled their pockets, did not think about the people," he was quoted as saying. "Now the time has come to think about the people."
The Bolshevik-style rhetoric of separatists in the industrialized, coal-mining east of Ukraine has drawn criticism from political analysts who have noted that followers of revolutionary leader Vladimir Lenin tried to create a viable government and a self-sufficient infrastructure after toppling the tsarist regime.
"Even the 1917 revolution in Russia started with decrees, adopted in the first minutes, forming the government, appointing ministers, assigning responsibilities," historian and political analyst Nikolai Zlobin, head of the Washington D.C.-based Center on Global Interests, told Ekho Moskvy radio Monday night.
This type of planning does not appear to have taken place in the separatist republics in eastern Ukraine. ...
"I thought that they would abide by some rules of politeness, would stay a sovereign state for at least a day," Zlobin said. "I read [separatist interviews] and I shuddered. 'We want better pensions, we want better wages.' Well, by all means! Everybody wants bigger pensions, bigger wages. This is no political program of a new administration."
fairleft
Can't believe the Moscow Times can report Nikolai Zlobin's comments with a straight face:
Easy, because its propaganda site.
Posted by: Anonymous | May 13 2014 12:38 utc | 131
Lavrov and the Ministry really let fly yesterday:
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_05_13/Issues-of-Ukraines-state-system-should-be-discussed-prior-to-presidential-election-Moscow-1311/
Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 13 2014 13:07 utc | 132
It seems Putin has won his case: there will be negotiations and the logical result expected is a federation. The USA will try its best to derail that while Europe will help.
Russia 'respects but doesn't recognise' east Ukraine vote: OSCE
AFP , Monday 12 May 2014
Moscow 'respects will of people' after vote in east Ukraine: Kremlin
The head of the influential East-West OSCE security organisation on Monday stressed that Russia had expressed "respect but not recognition" of the separatist vote in eastern Ukraine this weekend."Russia sees a need to take into account the different voices in eastern Ukraine," said Swiss President and acting OSCE chief Didier Burkhalter.
"You have seen Russia's response, that there is respect but not recognition to the referendum. There is no recognition of these results," he told journalists.
He spoke after talks with European Union foreign ministers in which Burkhalter outlined a roadmap for peace for Ukraine beginning with a national dialogue moderated by the OSCE and an independent Ukrainian figure.
Saying "we can't lose time" in Ukraine, he said he hoped to see the dialogue launch in the next few days.
"If we want to succeed in the end it is about the integration of all actors. The integration of the Russian Federation above all is very important.
"We have seen in Moscow that there is an openness for a dialogue," said Burkhalter who met with Putin last week.
He stressed the importance of country-wide elections on May 25 and said the OSCE was planning to send 1,000 monitors to Ukraine for the vote, "one of the biggest missions" in the organisation's history.
"It is very important that we believe that the election can take place and that we act in that direction," he said.
A first step in the OSCE roadmap has been to name respected veteran German diplomat Wolfgang Ischinger as a moderator for the roundtable talks that would involve the Ukraine government, parliament and the regions.
Ischinger, who would work alongside a Ukrainian bipartisan figure, was a longtime ambassador in Britain and the US and took part in the Dayton negotiations on Bosnia as well as NATO's eastwards enlargement. He heads the Munich security conference.
Posted by: Virgile | May 13 2014 13:36 utc | 133
I would suggest resisting the idea that Putin has demonstrated chess mastery, judo mastery, mystic kung fu mastery or whatever. Putin is just chief apparatchik. But he has done an excellent job of not losing his temper. I often wish I had that ability. Or at least, I imagine that I wish it, but if I really wished not to be hot-tempered, I would be, so clearly I don't, after all.
Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 13 2014 14:06 utc | 134
Virgile, Wolfgang Ischinger is not to be trusted to be a fair arbiter, conservative and allied with US/UK. Imo, he'll obstruct OSCE roadmap on behalf of US, which has no use for dialog, much less a fair resolution of the crisis. I hope I'm wrong, but someone higher than his pay-grade will have to keep him on the straight and narrow.
Posted by: okie farmer | May 13 2014 14:10 utc | 135
By the way, I've got a hypothesis, which unlike many has the advantage that we can see whether it works out empirically over the fairly near future. I've been confused by the interplay of various elements of Jewish power in the Ukraine crisis. My hypothesis is this: there is, I think, a global centre for Jewish geopolitical decision-making somewhere on earth, at any given point in time, and it doesn't matter where, because the whole concept is supra-national. Now my hypothesis is that this centre experiences a periodic need to 'mop up' Jewish oligarchs who have become too self-sufficient in their various remote fiefdoms, no matter how they acquired them. If this is so, then we should see the gradual replacement of the more self-sufficient sorts of Jewish oligarch by the more submissive, globally networked sort. It is even possible that the terrible leftist rebels that Washington would so much like to see obliterated, will serve as a sort of wedge whereby to replace the former sort of oligarch by the latter. This would explain a few details such as the evident support for the rebels shown by Paula Slier, RT.com's mid-east bureau chief, an enigmatic figure in her own right and, I suspect, a Jewish 'left cover' agent of influence. You can substitute Zionist for Jewish in most of the above; it will still work, and it will sound a lot less offensive.
Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 13 2014 14:17 utc | 136
I think this pretty well sums up the Russian (and mine!) position on events in UKraine:
“The PACE chairperson makes different incoherent and anti-Russian statements but does not speak about the mass burning of people in Odesa. I think this is absolutely unacceptable and we will talk about this in all international and domestic arenas,” Pushkov said.Amid such conditions when sanctions should be passed against the Kyiv authorities, such measures are being taken against Russia, Pushkov said.
“What do they want from us? That we turn a blind eye to those who were burnt, killed and strangled in Odesa and Mariupol? We cannot do this. That we turn a blind eye to the results of the vote in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, where several million people have declared their will? We cannot do this. That we recognize the illegitimate regime in Kyiv, which responds to the legitimate demands of own citizens by sending tanks and armored vehicles? We cannot do this. They want us to admit that black is white but we cannot do this,” Pushkov said. 'Pushkov hopes to hear PACE assessment of materials on fight in Odesa sent to it by Russia', 13 May 2014, Stop NATO
Posted by: William Bowles | May 13 2014 14:38 utc | 137
Attempt made at life of Lugansk People's governor
"Today at around 11 a.m. local time at attempt was made on the life of Valery Bolotov," head of the Lugansk People's Republic press center Vasily Nikitin told reporters."Bolotov is wounded but his life is not threatened" and the official is currently in a closed private hospital with no access to him, Nikitin said.
"The assassination on Bolotov is Kiev's response to the people's referendum, the results of which were declared yesterday," Nikitin said."
China blames toppling of legitimate gov't for Ukrainian crisis
"Concerning the ongoing violence in Ukraine, I think this is the result of the toppling of the legitimate authorities of this country in the course of disturbances and provocations staged on Maidan," the deputy minister said."This is the direct cause of the crisis," Cheng said.
Another reason for the current situation in Ukraine is the Western policy, he noted.
"External influence, primarily, that of the United States and Western countries which are trying for force Ukraine to follow the development path of Western democracies, cannot be ignored either," the senior diplomat said."
Posted by: scalawag | May 13 2014 14:52 utc | 138
Why do people here insist on dragging Jews into virtually every discussion? Fuck Israel! The real enemy is the US and its six capo countries. And in any case, being Jewish doesn't automatically equate with Israel. It's a tiresome record that gets us nowhere.
Key your eye on the ball!
Posted by: William Bowles | May 13 2014 14:58 utc | 139
How some Germans view Merkel and her relationship to the USA.
Posted by: scalawag | May 13 2014 15:00 utc | 140
The US may indeed be the ball, William, but it is Jewish money that is paying the players.
Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 13 2014 15:06 utc | 141
Yeah, but they're not doing it because they're Jewish but because they're capitalists. Class trumps 'race' anytime.
Posted by: William Bowles | May 13 2014 15:28 utc | 142
This is an interesting (and overlooked) piece of news from Voice of Russia today:
Flights will not be affected by GPS suspension in Russia - sourceThe suspension of the operation of the GPS ground stations in Russia will not affect civil aviation flights, a source in one Russian airline companies told Interfax.
Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said earlier on Tuesday that starting from June 1 Russia will suspend the operation of the US GPS stations based in Russia if it fails to reach an agreement to put GLONASS ground stations in the US.
"One needs to understand what Dmitry Rogozin meant. If the GPS ground stations are closed, this will by no means affect the flights. If the GPS is shut down totally, then airplanes will not be able to fly," the source said. If things get as far as the total shutdown, Airbus and Boeing will refuse to install the GLONASS system and simply ban the operators from using their planes, he said.
Read more: http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_05_13/Flights-will-not-be-affected-by-GPS-suspension-in-Russia-source-5932/
The entire planet is now interconnected but fatally, with the US as the 'mediator' due to it getting into the IT game first.
It's like all these arseholes in the UK who talk about pulling out of the EU forgetting that the cost could bankrupt the place!
Posted by: William Bowles | May 13 2014 17:12 utc | 143
Helicopters w/ #UN logo—used earlier for peacekeeping in the Congo—are used by #Ukraine's troops (Lifenews)
http://inagist.com/all/466257536903938049/
Posted by: Anonymous | May 13 2014 18:00 utc | 144
Willaim Bowles
I would hold that their is indeed ethnic as well as capitalist motivation and unless the particular individual has demonstrated anti-Zionist politics in the past, presumably is at the very least a Zionist-lite.
OTOH, I do not presume anything like the cohesiveness or effectiveness that a conspiracy theorist does. (Contrast Belloc's reading with that
of the conspiratologist.)
Posted by: amspirnational | May 13 2014 21:14 utc | 145
Posted by: fairleft | May 13, 2014 8:23:48 AM | 130
the Moscow Times managed to use the word 'separatist' twice in one short paragraph.
Posted by: brian | May 13 2014 22:36 utc | 146
Re: GPS
Without certain ground stations, precision updates are delayed, and
that's no concern for basic navigation.
Re: UN-copters
It just goes to show what a gang is handling Kiev, it's disgusting
and I doubt if this ever comes through meanstreet media.
Posted by: slirs | May 13 2014 22:55 utc | 148
Do you have an opinion on what kind of interest those Germans see in the revived militarism. Or is it because just the US asked them?
Posted by: PuppetMaster | May 13, 2014 1:24:07 AM | 84
I don't know if the 'German people' are interested in reviving militarism or just these us-allied oligarchs/think tanks. But does it make any difference? Polls consistently show the 'American people' want an end to 'the wars' ... but they're increasing in destructiveness and frequency.
There seem to be two levels in action/inaction ... the oligarchic and the popular. The oligarchic level is the one literally 'calling the shots' and the rest of us are 'just along for the ride' ... unless we stand up on our hind legs and rein in the oligarchs. I see no evidence that that is in the offing ... although hope does die last.
Posted by: john francis lee | May 13 2014 23:50 utc | 149
Wondering if Azerbijan or Belarus is the next 'color revolution' ... how about Nigeria ...
Michelle Obama: Barack and I see our own daughters in Nigeria schoolgirls
Michelle Obama has taken the rare step of delivering her husband’s weekly video address to express outrage over the plight of more than 250 schoolgirls kidnapped by Islamist militants in Nigeria.
Boko Haram abduction: US and UK step up military effort to find girls
The US and Britain have stepped up military assistance to the Nigerian government as part of a mounting international effort to find and rescue more than 200 teenage girls abducted by Islamist militants almost a month ago.US surveillance planes have begun flying missions over a remote area of the country, and Washington has sent experts to "dig in on the search" and provided the government with satellite images.
... looks like Michelle and her husband are going to destroy Nigeria next? Nigeria’s got oil … like Libya, like Iraq.
Posted by: john francis lee | May 14 2014 0:25 utc | 150
Yeah, but they're not doing it because they're Jewish but because they're capitalists. Class trumps 'race' anytime. Posted by: William Bowles | May 13, 2014 11:28:12 AM | 142My goodness, what a refreshing admission, that Jewish is what they are. Now William, let us proceed: your view is, alas, empirically incorrect. Would that it were as you say, but it is not. The persistent pattern of events indicates something far worse that a mere drive for global capitalist dominance per se. What it indicates is a drive towards apocalypse.
Consider, after all: how could any group of capitalists, no matter how cosmically super-rich they are, hope to make a new and more comfortable world for themselves, preserving a few million slaves but otherwise allowing the vast mass of humanity to liquidate itself, as these our rulers do? How could they imagine the planet will be ecologically survivable? You must have asked yourself this when contemplating the mad GOPsters and their endless love of ever greater wars. Indeed, one of the strongest pieces of bait in the (alas, disinformationalist) Fursov lecture was the raising of this question: do they not understand that their grandchildren will die like all other humans? The answer is, again let us say alas, because this is a grief-inducing thing: they expect that their idiot robot god will provide them with a new, Edenic planet in which to relax in comfort as their goy slaves do the remaining servile work. A new and Edenic planet, William.
A map of Jewish tycoonery with different coloured lights would be ideal, then we could watch the Lubavitchers replacing all the old tycoons one by one, just as they did in Russia under Putin, with their “quiet, wise advice” as Eduard Hodos put it. That’s what has to happen, to get all the apocalyptical ducks in a row. So there’s nothing in it for leftists to feel happy about. But for some reason, perhaps just to satisfy Satan’s sanguine sense of humour, they always end up signalling their presence and their true nature to those who look for these.
Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 14 2014 1:55 utc | 151
Posted by: Anonymous | May 13, 2014 2:00:05 PM | 144
"Helicopters w/ #UN logo—used earlier for peacekeeping in the Congo—are used by #Ukraine's troops (Lifenews)"
This is the Lifenews article with translation.
Нацгвардия применила вертолеты с символикой ООН под Краматорском
"The national guard under used helicopters with symbols of United Nations under Kramatorsk"
"Three combat helicopters Mi-24 and one transport Mi-8 took part in fierce clashes in the village of Oktyabrsky on the side of the Ukrainian military.Correspondents LifeNews that previously were fired Ukrainian military, managed to take video of the helicopters with symbols of the United Nations on Board. Security forces used camouflaged machine in a fight with militia under Kramatorsk.
According to the military expert and publicist Alexander Shirokorad, such military technique was employed in the peacekeeping operation in Congo, but then the helicopters had a different coloring.
Is armored assault helicopters, said the expert. - In the Congo, they were used for fire support of the UN mission. They clearly indicate blue. Did you use these helicopters in Africa, I do not know, but the fact that in Africa was used Ukrainian helicopters, fact. UN pays well for it.
Alexander Shirokorad believes that the UN should sever all ties with the Ukrainian defense Ministry.
Otherwise you will break out with a international scandal. The Russian foreign Ministry should certainly give his assessment of this fact. Ukrainian military compromise the UN. Without appropriate sanctions on the troops, the United Nations is not a peacemaker. In fact, it is the pirates, " said the expert.
According to militia, a battle in Kramatorsk began due to the fact that the military was trying to deliver ammunition for launchers "Grad" is located at mountain Karachun.
Local residents reported that in the village of Oktyabrsky, for which many battles were fought, there are dozens died from militias."
Posted by: scalawag | May 14 2014 5:07 utc | 152
Webster G. Tarpley, Ph.D.
May 13, 2014
Artificial Ukrainian State Heads for Breakup Despite US Hysterics, as Putin’s Actions Promise a More Stable Balance of Power System
Posted by: Paty Kerry | May 14 2014 6:02 utc | 153
Ukraine's West/ East divide in 2004 - explained in German - disclaimer - including local prejudice - but it is interesting
In den abtrennungswilligen südostukrainsichen Gebieten Donezk, Dnjepropetrowsk, Charkow, Lugansk, Saporoschje, Nikolajew und Cherson stellen Ukrainer gut die Hälfte der Bevölkerung. Die Russen kommen auf ein Drittel. Dann folgen Bulgaren, Weißrussen etc. Den haushohen Sieg des russlandfreundlichen Premiers Janukowitsch in dieser Region hat also nicht die fünfte Kolonne aus Moskau gesichert....
Man kann sich noch so lange am Kopf kratzen. Die Zahlen sind echt. Sie wurden bei der Volkszählung im Dezember 2001 ermittelt. Selbst wenn alle Russen in der Ostukraine für den pro-russischen Regierungskandidaten Viktor Janukowitsch gestimmt hätten, wäre er nie auf 85 und stellenweise sogar „auf über 100“ Prozent der Wählerstimmen gekommen.
Der „fünfte Punkt“ lässt grüßen
Bei der Volkszählung ging man von der Selbstidentifizierung der Befragten aus. In der alten, unguten Sowjetzeit konnte der berühmt-berüchtigte „fünfte Punkt“ (des Personal-Fragebogens) Probleme bis hin zum Berufsverbot bedeuten.So ließen sich viele Juden und die weitaus meisten Deutschen als Russen eintragen. Das sitzt bei vielen in den Knochen, nur hat sich die Situation nach der Wende ins Gegenteil verkehrt. Russen kaufen sich Geburtsurkunden, wo sie als „Jude“ figurieren, um damit auszuwandern. Und in den neuen Nationalstaaten fühlt man sich als Russe auch nicht unbedingt wohl.
...
Ostukrainische Gebiete sind das, was man früher „Kleinrussland“ nannte. Die Westukraine war von der Mittelukraine bis 1939 durch die alte k.u.k.-Grenze getrennt.
Es ist keine Frage der Geographie, sondern die der Mentalität. Reiche Moskowiter schwören beim Bau ihrer Datschas auf Gastarbeiter aus der Westukraine. Die „sapadjanski“ Ukrainer aus dem Westen seien anständig, fleißig und trinken nie in der Arbeitszeit, heißt es. Aus dem Osten kommende „Chochly“ seien dagegen faul und versoffen, kurz: „wie die Unseren“. Heißt in den Edel-Datschen-Siedlungen rund um Moskau
Short translation of the 2004 article: In the separatist South-Eastern Ukrainian regions Donezk, Dnjepropetrowsk, Charkow, Lugansk, Saporoschje, Nikolajew and Cherson half of the population are Ukrainians, Russians are a third. The rest are Bulgarian, Belorus, etc. The huge victory of Russia friendly Yanukovich in this region therefore cannot be explained with a Moscovite fifth column.
The 2001 census was based on self-identification. In Soviet Times the infamous fifth question of the personal questionnaire could have consequences leading to an inability to practice your profession. Many Jews and many Germans therefore identified themselves as Russians. The situation changed with the end of the Soviet Union. Many Russians bought Jewish birth certificates to be able to emigrate. And Russians did not really feel comfortable in the new national states, so switched their self identification.
...
Eastern Ukrainian regions are what used to be Novorussia. Western Ukraine was separated from central Ukraine until 1939 by the borders of the former Habsburg monarchy.
It is not a queation of geography but mentality. Rich Moscovites prefer Western Ukrainians when they build their Datchas. They are considered honest, hard working and would not drink during working hours. Eastern Ukrainians are considered lazy and drunk - "like ours".
So this is the mix all of a sudden a Russian/European/Nato clash has been reconfigered.
Posted by: somebody | May 14 2014 6:15 utc | 154
UN reaction to their markings on Ukrainian helicopters being used in the Ukraine.
ООН решила проверить информацию о вертолетах со своей символикой под Краматорском
Yandex translation.
"The UN decided to check information on the helicopters with their symbolism under Kramatorsk"
"The United Nations checks appeared in media reports that the helicopters with her signs were used by the Ukrainian military men in military operations under Kramatorsk, have informed on Tuesday in the press-service of the Department of peacekeeping operations of the UN.If the information is confirmed, it will mean that the Kyiv authorities violated concluded with the international organization agreements, have informed in the press-service. "UN agencies are in contact with the Ukrainian authorities on this matter," - said representatives of the press-service, transfers ITAR-TASS.
In the Department of peacekeeping operations of the UN stressed that the state providing the means of aviation and other equipment for peacekeeping missions, "should get rid of all the logos and identifying marks with reference to the UN as soon as it is returned to the country and no longer used for official purposes of the world organization".
"Moreover, each written order, signed with the countries-suppliers of contingents, clearly stated that their governments can use bearing the symbols of United Nations funds aviation only for flights that were requested by the United Nations", - noted in the Department of peacekeeping operations.
Earlier in mass-media there were messages about using during a special operation under Kramatorsk at least three helicopters, painted white with applied with symbols and distinctive signs of the UN. According to available information, it is about three combat helicopters Mi-24 and one transport Mi-8. A video from one of the Mi-24 was posted on YouTube.
Ukrainian helicopters were involved in a number of UN peacekeeping missions, in particular, in the Democratic Republic of the Congo."
Posted by: scalawag | May 14 2014 6:24 utc | 155
“These days, NATO representatives have said many words how important it is for the alliance to waken from sleep, and, judging by the enthusiasm of the rhetoric about the emergence of a new threat in Europe, NATO is seeking to make maximum use of the Ukrainian crisis to prove that it is still needed in the current security environment,” he said. “The aim of this deliberately heightened rhetoric is simple - to reanimate the bloc, to have more funds for military needs. And this requires an enemy.”“The base of argument is being built up to prove that Russia has some expansion plans,” he noted, adding that for these ends new threats were being invented. “Thus, one of NATO’s military chief has worded a universal formula explaining any protest movements - everything gives away the hand of Moscow.”
“At the same time, they prefer not to see the contribution our country has made to do away with the heritage of the Cold War and put an end to the arms race. If truth be said, Europe should be thankful to Russia that it can spend only one to two percent of its GDP on defence. Now, amid this campaign, taxpayers will be tapped for additional money on defence,” Grushko said.
“The alliance denies the fact that the crisis in Ukraine is an internal one and, despite all the tragic instances, keeps on speaking about a foreign interference in Ukraine’s eastern regions,” the Russian ambassador said. “I hope that now that they have seen longest queues to polling stations in Donetsk and Lugansk NATO would admit that this is civil society but not mythical ‘agent provocateurs.’ If the alliance is really interested in deescalating of the situation, as its representatives are claiming, it can also make its contribution by urging the Kiev regime to stop the punitive operation, to pull back its troops and by stopping any aid to it.
Posted by: somebody | May 14 2014 6:34 utc | 156
Rowan at 151: You're a smart and well-read guy, but these beliefs you have are so 'outer limits' and evidence-free. ...
Consider, after all: how could any group of capitalists, no matter how cosmically super-rich they are, hope to make a new and more comfortable world for themselves, preserving a few million slaves but otherwise allowing the vast mass of humanity to liquidate itself, as these our rulers do?
Seriously, you believe the above is the Jewish capitalist conspiracy end goal?
How could they imagine the planet will be ecologically survivable?
The capitalist and his/her servants focus on short and medium-term profits and don't do such imagining, because it is not profitable to do so for a variety of personal and hard-profit reasons.
You must have asked yourself this when contemplating the mad GOPsters and their endless love of ever greater wars.
The military-industrial complex capitalist variation focuses on short and medium-term profits and doesn't 'love' more and greater wars. They are profitable so the capitalist servant GOPsters advance them and support them.
they expect that their idiot robot god will provide them with a new, Edenic planet in which to relax in comfort as their goy slaves do the remaining servile work.
Again, seriously? This is the real Rowan Berkeley talking?
Posted by: john francis lee | May 13, 2014 8:25:07 PM | 150
I think it's Moldova that's next for the chop: (See 'NATO is taking Ukrainian crisis to Moldova').
Posted by: William Bowles | May 14 2014 9:28 utc | 158
Posted by: fairleft | May 14, 2014 5:01:56 AM | 157
I'm still trying to figure out what Rowan's statement means but apparently (and I could be wrong here), he's saying that it (capitalism) is just a conspiracy/plot for (rich?) Jews to take over the world? What about the poor ones like me?
Frankly, I think it's all bullshit. Since what do poor, working class Jews like my grandparents, have in common with a billionaire, or even a dozen billionaires who own newpapers, tv channels et al? Nada, nothing, zilch, zip...
I read the pseudo-intellectual ramblings of Rowan and the rest of conspiritorialists for what they are, people with too much time on their hands.
Posted by: William Bowles | May 14 2014 9:40 utc | 159
Posted by: William Bowles | May 14, 2014 5:40:55 AM | 159
Yup, but time to get back on topic. Moldova ...
Posted by: slirs | May 13, 2014 6:55:41 PM | 148
Re Glonass/GPS, the situation heats up!
Russia MOVES TO PROHIBIT the U.S. from Using the International Space Station (ISS) after 2020
According to the article:
Russia’s ongoing feud with the United States has hit new heights — literally. In retaliation for the sanctions the U.S. imposed on Russia during the Ukraine crisis, the country said it won’t allow the U.S. use the International Space Station after 2020.The measures, which were announced today by Russia’s deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin, also prohibit the U.S. from using the ISS’s rocket engines to launch new satellites.
Although the space station is manned by a Russian and American crew, the only way to reach it is by using Russia’s Soyuz spaceships.
Though I'm not sure if it's true that only Soyuz craft can reach the ISS. Didn't a private US rocket company just send one up to the ISS?
Posted by: William Bowles | May 14 2014 10:49 utc | 161
The pirates have opened a veritable can of worms in Ukraine as now the Hungarians are demanded autonomy for their minorities! Where does this end?
Yet to the pirates it all makes perfect sense. Balkanize, fragment, divide and destroy. Pretend countries present no threat. Chaos rules!
Posted by: William Bowles | May 14 2014 11:15 utc | 162
William, I don't know what you mean by "pseudo-intellectual". I'm not claiming any caste privileges. I don't even have a degree. Anyway, capitalism, in the modern, finance-driven sense, has historical origins which are somewhat ambiguous. I don't claim it was invented by Jews with apocalyptic ambitions. It's possible. I have some evidence that points in that direction. No serious historian of modern Europe could ignore the outbreaks of Sabbateanism and later Frankism, the former almost universal in the western European and middle eastern Jewish communities and the latter very widespread in the eastern European Ashkenazic ones. These were absolutely apocalyptic movements, and both culminated in mass religious entryism, the former to Islam and the latter to Catholicism. Then there was the Asiatic Brethren, a fascinating fringe-masonic group that mixed Jews and non-Jews, masonic traditions and Kabbalah, and for a short time attained well-nigh universal permeation among high-grade German masons, i.e. the nobility. Its founder, the truly amazing Jewish adventurer Moses Dobrushka, aka Franz Thomas von Schonfeld, aka Junius Frey (a Frankist!) was unfortunately decapitated during the French Revolution, But this is no place for such advanced matters.
:-)
Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 14 2014 11:24 utc | 163
Dear Rowan,
Nobody is refuting the rather 'unique' role Jews have played in the history of Europe (and interestingly, it seems to be unique to Europe, make of that what you will), but I state my case again: the vast majority of Jews, of old and of today are working class and as such, having nothing in common with Jewish 'captains of industry'. Zionism, an invention of white European imperialists, has exploited anti-semitism in order to co-opt Jews of all classes in supporting what is undeniably an imperialist/colonialist project, Israel. It's not fucking rocket science is it! Read your history Rowan, it's all there. We don't need a conspiracy of the Jewish 'race' to explain the unique role that Jews have played in the development of capitalism. And in any case, there's no such thing as the Jewish race. Show me a Catholic race!
The creation of a 'Jewish state' was a masterstroke of British imperialism. First, it enabled the Brits to effectively suppress Arab nationalism (thru divide and rule strategies eg, Lawrence of Arabia) and, at the same time, ensured that Britain had continued access to its colonial resources through the Suez Canal. And at the same time, because oil had become a strategic resource, preserving access to Middle East oil became a major objective of British foreign policy. It's all there Rowan, in the history books, from Anglo-Iranian Oil Co to Royal Dutch Shell and beyond.
Furthermore, I find it incomprehensible that otherwise intelligent people (I assume) can jettison good sense and come up with a view that like it or not, actually feeds anti-semitism by essentially making a 'special case' for Jews. I think it's outrageous!!!
Posted by: William Bowles | May 14 2014 13:07 utc | 164
164) It is part of some people's stupidity - see civilization and its discontents, but really it can be any minority, the mechanism is the same.
Surprising stuff the Anti-Defamation League (Foxman) found out in a global poll
a) Polled worldwide, Muslims have a bigger image problem than Jews
b) Iran is the least anti-semite in the Middle East and North Africa
Fact known from history - only European Christian were into the habit of progroms
and yes - Ukrainians own a large quantity of Anti-Semites.
I don't consider the questions of the poll legitimate, nevertheless above results are pretty clear.
Posted by: somebody | May 14 2014 13:35 utc | 165
I think it's Moldova that's next for the chop: (See 'NATO is taking Ukrainian crisis to Moldova').
Posted by: William Bowles | May 14, 2014 5:28:15 AM | 158
No doubt ... but from here Moldova (Transdniester) and Ukraine kind of blur together ... this looks more like a case of the Ukraine 'NATO disease' spreading to Moldova, a la Andrew Korybko's observation on Saker's last Crosstalk.
Perhaps Nigeria is all about "look, look. over here ... not at Ukraine and the 'Belgian' $142 billion dollar US Treasury repo" ... but Nigeria does have lots of oil. As did Libya, as did Iraq ...
Posted by: john francis lee | May 14 2014 14:19 utc | 166
Surprising stuff the Anti-Defamation League (Foxman) found out in a global poll
It's ludicrous! All 11 questions are loaded. So for example, the poll asks if Jews have too much control over the global media? Now, if I head up a giant, transnational media corporation and I happen to be Jewish, what comes first, my religion/race/culture/ethnicity blah-blah-blah, or the class I belong to?
Do the owners of the NYT project and defend the interests of the dominant class in the US, which happens to contain Jews who also 'happen' to be colonisers of Palestine?
Why did the pollsters choose not just the media, but 'global media'? Or are they unconsciously acknowledging the role and power of the 'global media' in setting agendas and the critical role that Israel and the definition of 'anti-semitism' plays in the process of controlling events?
When I was at high school I can remember a few occasions when I got called a Yid but that was about it. But then my upbringing was not very 'Jewish', in fact more Russian than Jewish, aside from the Yiddish words my mum and her brothers and sisters used, it was largely through the food we ate.
I was taught by my folks that by the end of the 19th century, Jews in Western Europe were well on their way to assimilation into the various national cultures, especially in Germany, France and England but bringing with them, unique cultures.
Isn't this what's happened in the UK with arrival of people from our former colonies? What's the favourite dish in England? An Indian curry? Isn't Reggae almost as English as it is Jamaican? I've been listening to to it most of my life.
In the UK, virtually all the Jews I knew growing up in London were non-believers, never went to Shule but probably defined themselves as culturally/ethnically Jewish plus wherever they had originally come from (Russia, Poland...) got thrown into the mix, like my family.
What Zionism did, as an imperialist ideology, was separate to Jews and make them a special 'class' of people which is patently bullshit and ironically, racist as well! There's none so blind as them that refuse to see. At the very least, Zionism is totally unscientific as well as reactionary. The Chosen people? Chosen by, who? One particular god amongst many, it is alleged.
Why would the British ruling class, to this day still probably the most racist on the planet (with possible exception of the French), advocate the creation of Israel? Indeed, the very idea of Israel was promulgated by the UK govt through the Balfour Declaration of 1917, Kenya of all places, was the first choice. What, out of the goodness of their hearts? This is the same ruling class that is built on slavery and colonisation.
Yeah ok, get on with it but the 'debate' over the alleged role of Jews and anti-semitism as far as I'm concerned doesn't belong in the discourse of rational human beings.
Posted by: William Bowles | May 14 2014 14:54 utc | 167
Now Putin Has to Figure Out What to Do With the Separatists
By Joshua Yaffa May 14, 2014
Instead, Trenin explained, the Kremlin would like to exploit the uncertainty and instability of eastern Ukraine to ram through its ultimate, and most important, strategic aim: a so-called “federalization” plan that would see eastern regions handed a wide degree of autonomy, thus keeping the country from moving closer to the EU or NATO and ensuring a powerful countervailing voice for a pro-Russian elite. With these interests in mind, Russia views Ukraine’s eastern territory more as a bargaining chip than as a potential territorial acquisition. In future rounds of negotiations with the Ukrainian government and Western officials, the Kremlin can wield the unresolved status of eastern Ukraine and the appeal by the separatists to join Russia as an ever-present threat: Give us what we want, or we’ll break Ukraine apart. If no grand bargain can be found, or if Russia decides it prefers permanent instability in Ukraine to a diplomatic solution, the Kremlin could keep eastern Ukraine as a perpetually contested territory, a grander version of the political and security headache posed by the breakaway republic of Transnistria.
It is clear that Russia considers unrest in eastern Ukraine—at least in a form it thinks it can manage—in its interest.
Posted by: Virgile | May 14 2014 15:51 utc | 168
We don't need a conspiracy of the Jewish 'race' to explain the unique role that Jews have played in the development of capitalism. And in any case, there's no such thing as the Jewish race. Show me a Catholic race!William, I do believe you are imputing to me the use of a word which I have repeatedly denied the validity of. I have always said that there is no one criterion by which Jews can be distinguished from non-Jews: not religion, not nationalism, and certainly not 'race'. I incline to the view that the 'Ashkenazim' are in fact of Khazar origin (i.e. relatively few of them are descendents of the original German Ashkenazim, who migrated along the Roman trade routes into the German lands in ancient times). As for the Sephardim, it would be improbable that there would be much coherence to their gene pool, because it is in their part of the world that such a large number of curious fractions of other nations' populations are regularly 'discovered' to be Jews and painstakingly groomed for the role by rabbis of considerable ingenuity, and presumably this practice, for which there should be a name, is not merely a recent one. And now, the Lubavitchers are also making inroads into the Sephardi communities, which must be horrible for the Sephardim, who have quite distinct traditions of their own. Anyway, if I have anywhere used the expression "Jewish race" then please point me to it, because it is something I do not believe I would ever be stupid enough to do.
Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 14 2014 16:11 utc | 169
OK, point taken you don't use the term 'Jewish race' but still, we don't need a Jewish-based conspiracy of any kind to explain events. And let's face it, the way the issue of 'jewishness' is dealt with, turns Jews into a de facto 'race'. How else can one define anti-semitism except in pseudo-racist terms?
More than fifty years ago, my mother told me that most European Jews were descended from Kazars, when there were mass conversions in the 15th or 16th century and she's been proved correct. And judging by the number of blond, blue-eyed Jews there are in Europe, it's probably true but so what? The entire 'home for a people, for people without a home' is pure BS, wherever Jews may or may not have come from.
And in all likelihood, the original Jews were probably closer to being African than any Zionist would care to acknowledge. A lot like the so-called Moorish Jews like my uncle Juan, a champion ballroom dancer in the 1930s and originally from Spain.
Posted by: William Bowles | May 14 2014 17:10 utc | 170
BTW, Re the ADL 'poll' @165, here's what Gilad Atzmon has to say about it:
On Kosher Statistics
The Jewish ADL (Anti Defamation League) revealed this week that more than ‘one in four adults are ‘anti-Semitic.’
Of Some 53,100 adults in 102 countries and territories around the world surveyed for the ADL Global 100: An Index of Anti-Semitism, 26% were found to be ‘deeply infected’ with ‘anti-Semitic attitudes.’
Personally, I find both the ADL and its polls quite amusing. Can you think of another people on this planet who so spend so much time and energy measuring how much they are loved or hated? Do the Brits measure how despised they are in Moldovia? Do the Palestinians question people all over the world to see how much they love those indigenous people of Palestine? Well, the Jews do and it’s for a reason. Abe Foxman, ADL’s National Director, must by now have grasped the immense destructive global power of Jewish politics, so naturally he wants to measure the reaction. But rather than reflecting on the results and then turning to his own people in the hope of re-educating them, Foxman always blames the rest of humanity. And why? Because in the Judeo-centric cosmos, the Jew is always innocent and the Goy is always to blame.
ADL discovered that the least anti-Semitic country at 0.2% of the adult population ‘hating Jews.’ is ........Laos! But what does that mean? Should the ADL start to shlep Jews to Laos? Maybe, rather than Palestine, it is Laos that is the promised land. Trouble is, once the Jews start to immigrate to Laos, anti Semitic attitudes will sharply rise. ADL is yet to resolve this Jewish dilemma yet.
Apparently, according to the ADL, the territories of the West Bank and Gaza Strip had the highest ‘anti-Semitic’ attitudes at 93%. But is it really ‘anti Semitic’ to oppose those who plundered your home and murdered your family? No Abe, this is not anti-Semitism, this is resistance.
The questions of the survey were also very interesting. Respondents were asked a series of 11 questions about Jews, Jewish power, Jewish tribalism, Jews and money and Jewish behaviour. Those who responded affirmatively to six or more negative statements about Jews were considered to hold ‘anti-Semitic’ attitudes. But I beg to differ. I’d think that those who answered affirmatively were simply authentic, honest folk who were better informed about the state of the world. Now, if I am correct here, it means that about a quarter of world’s population is authentic, honest and informed - a most positive and encouraging bit of information.
But back to the results of the survey. It seems that 74% of respondents indicated that they had never met a Jew and yet, of those, 25% still harboured anti-Semitic attitudes. Also, of the overall 26% overall of people who did harbour anti-Semitic attitudes, some 70% of them had never met a Jew. But you know, most people have never met a Nazi either and yet Nazis are also pretty unpopular these days. It’s all a matter of reputation.
All in all, it seems that AIPAC, The Jewish State, CFI, CRIF, ADL and Bernard Henri Levy have been investing an awful lot of energy giving Jews bad name.
http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/on-kosher-statistics.html
Posted by: William Bowles | May 14 2014 17:14 utc | 171
Dragging Ukraine into NATO negative for European security - Lavrov
http://rt.com/news/158908-lavrov-russia-ukraine-nato/
Posted by: Paty Kerry | May 14 2014 18:03 utc | 172
It's quite a common critical assertion that Zionism needs anti-Semitism. And it's obviously true. Zionism needs a perpetual sense of seige, in order to persuade its own citizens to support or actually perform continuous ruthless acts under the rationale of 'defense'. It's an extreme form of something most other nations do too: "Defence Dept", "Ministry of Defense", etc. And Gilad in various places has actually maintained that Jewishhood itself needs this belief in the perpetual threat of the outside world, in order to hold itself together. In this essay, he hasn't touched on that thesis, which I suppose is just because he gets tired of repeating himself.
Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 14 2014 18:04 utc | 173
Ben Gurion dreamed of a world court seated in Jerusalem. I assume this was not merely as an outpost of British imperialism.
Posted by: amspirnational | May 15 2014 0:33 utc | 174
Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 14, 2014 2:04:25 PM | 173
All people of 'self-congratulatory chosen people lie' religions/sects depend on the under siege mentality. If outsiders are not a threat, you might talk to them as equals, consider their ideas sincerely, maybe even befriend them, and then who knows what post-religious Bolshevik nonsense might break lose?
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Chapter 2 – The Hitler Project
"The American Jewish Committee and the B’nai B’rith (mother of the “ Anti-Defamation League ”) continued with this hardline, no-attack-on-Hitler stance all through the 1930s, blunting the fight mounted by many Jews and other anti-fascists.
Thus the decisive interchange reproduced above, taking place entirely within the orbit of the Harriman/Bush firm, may explain something of the relationship of George Bush to American Jewish and Zionist leaders. Some of them, in close cooperation with his family, played an ugly part in the drama of Naziism. Is this why “ professional Nazi-hunters ” have never discovered how the Bush family made its money?"
http://tarpley.net/online-books/george-bush-the-unauthorized-biography/chapter-2-the-hitler-project/
Posted by: Pety Kerry | May 13 2014 8:06 utc | 101