Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 08, 2014

Ukraine: It's Now For The Long Run

From a February 2008 wikileaked cable by the U.S. embassy in Moscow:

Experts tell us that Russia is particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene; a decision Russia does not want to have to face.

Russia decided to not intervene, for now, and to leave the poison cocktail the "west" created boiling and in the "west's" responsibility.

Putin's offer from yesterday was not accepted within the Ukraine. The coup government announced to continue its "anti-terrorism" campaign against federalists in the east and the federalists in Donetsk and Lugansk announced not to cancel their referendum.

Elsewhere Putin's offer was somewhat accepted. It had, as Putin had announced, already been coordinated with the German chancellor Merkel and today the OSCE as the relevant organization presented a yet to be published roadmap to Russia.

If there is no serious offer of federalization in the roadmap Russia will let the Ukraine issue boil on a lower flame. The social-economic upheaval that is sure to come will in due time swamp away the coup government. Russia can always use its economic and energy leverage to hasten or slow down that process.

The whole case of Ukraine is no likely to be a longer run issue and, unless some unforeseen massacre takes place, I expect no further immediate action from the Russian side.

Posted by b on May 8, 2014 at 14:32 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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Scalawag, #95, thanks. "Power agency" must be "Novosti", thus:

In Donetsk brought Russian uniforms for provocations
Lifenews.ru, May 6 2014

Source RIA Novosti reported that ammunition and identity are planning to use in the simulation of attacks on the Ukrainian border guards. According to an anonymous interlocutor of RIAN, the Russian uniforms and forged documents were taken from Khmelnitsky. The SBU sent from Kyiv to Donetsk about twenty people from the bodyguard of the Governor of Dnipropetrovsk region Kolomoisky. In Donetsk, the group met representatives of the Right Sector. The group was accompanied by the cargo, which consists of around 200 sets of military equipment of the Russian military, and about 70 of the forms of identity cards of officers of the Armed forces of Russia, said the source of RIAN. According to the source, form and documents required for use in the simulation of attacks on the Ukrainian border guards: “The task to carry out an attack on the Ukrainian border guards in uniform Russian sample and record what is happening on the camera,” he said.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 9 2014 9:10 utc | 101

Rowan 69

What are you talking about?
As Petri says the pictures are from the sniper video. Havent you seen the sniper video?

Compare the photos with the osce guy with the guy in the beanie, the face are identical.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 9 2014 9:14 utc | 102

@ 99, 95

RT caries an article (dated May 08, 2014 22:09) about an incident at the RU-UKR border: Armed group stages provocation at Ukraine-Russia border checkpoint. It is not clear to me if this is the same as what you’re pointing out, to a diversion / variant / something else. Nothing in the Anglo-saxon media that I could see.

Posted by: Philippe | May 9 2014 9:17 utc | 103

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 9, 2014 5:10:41 AM | 99

"Power agency" must be "Novosti"

I think it means in the context somebody (source) in the "power", the junta regime, informed the RIA news agency. The translations transpose words often in a very confusing way.

Posted by: scalawag | May 9 2014 9:20 utc | 104

97)

US gold reserves have not changed since 1970 - fiat money

Historical charts US Gold Reserves vs US money

It is a discussion for the stupid people. By all means buy gold and hide it in your cellar if you think there will be a third world war. No one prevents you from doing it.

Posted by: somebody | May 9 2014 9:25 utc | 105

Posted by: Philippe | May 9, 2014 5:17:54 AM | 101

I posted a VoR article on it earlier, comment #50. The RT article has more info and connects the incident to the leaked info about the provocation. The bandera nazis attack differs from the leaked plan in that they didn't pretend to be Russian soldiers in uniform, but pretended to be anti junta people instead. They might have changed the plan due to the leak, or this might have been some other operation in addition to it. The number involved sounds like the numbers mentioned in the leak about 20 oligarch body guards plus a group of right sector paramilitaries.

Posted by: scalawag | May 9 2014 9:34 utc | 106

98)

You get a side picture here - it is in all likelyhood not the same guy. People look the same to people from different cultures, remember.

Posted by: somebody | May 9 2014 9:47 utc | 107

One thing I've learned is never to rely on photo identification by itself. And in this case, the connection is nonexistent, except if you believe that everyone in everything from OSCE to NATO to CIA to whatever other covert agency is interchangeable. It would be an elementary error in tradecraft to use someone already clearly identified as a hostile agent in the area, for a covert op subsequently.

By the way, I don't believe the Bundesbank's subsequent denials of their original story, which was that they never saw their purloined gold at all. I don't believe it's there. I think it all disappeared into private hands long ago. Never believe a central banker. Never believe anyone with any kind of official position, but least of all a central banker. Bluff, shameless bare-faced bluff attended by pomp and ceremony, that's their entire way of life.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 9 2014 10:06 utc | 108

somebody

Why is it likely its the same guy?

They look the same.
The danish guy is pro-kiev and anti russian and have been in ukraine since last year.

You mean these people arent capable of attacking the police in ukraine with snipers?
Or why isnt it likely?

Posted by: Anonymous | May 9 2014 10:09 utc | 109

Posted by: Anonymous | May 9, 2014 6:09:38 AM | 107

1) They look different and different age.

2) Kiev snipers were on a mission no country would be in a position to claim them if they got caught. You don't take that type of risk as a mercenary if you can get money doing official missions. You don't take that risk as a Danish soldier with a government pension waiting for you and a high standard of living.

3) The Kiev sniper behaved in an untrained unsoldierly way (relaxing in a chair). Very likely Pravy Sektor unprofessional. I remember a Russian analysis from a video commenting on the shots hitting trees saying the same - the people who placed those shots were not very well trained.

Posted by: somebody | May 9 2014 10:29 utc | 110

Breaking:
Armored vehicles used in assault on Mariupol police HQ in Ukraine - eyewitnesses
Read more

The self-defense forces in Mariupol claimed that a Ukrainian law enforcement contingent has made use of military hardware while storming the city police department. "Armored vehicles have approached the city police department. The building is being shelled. It is an old building with thick walls which cannot be crushed by gunfire," a spokesman for the self-defense command told Interfax.

Posted by: William Bowles | May 9 2014 10:30 utc | 111

Good in-depth analysis of the EU deal and FMI role
http://www.les-crises.fr/responsabilite-ue-ukraine-2/

Posted by: Mina | May 9 2014 10:34 utc | 112

This of course has nothing to do with Germany being an occupied country. As several people helpfully remind us, Germany is not an occupied country.)


Posted by: Demian | May 8, 2014 4:59:47 PM | 42

Oh FFS - could the utterly clueless please, just once, stop and consider how clueless they might be, BEFORE they open their mouths and prove themselves to be completely and utterly clueless.

the statement quoted above is simply trivial to disprove, just by googling 2 simple phrases

I didn't bother to count the number of Military bases belonging to members countries of the Zio-US- Anglo Empire, but from a quick glance it looks something in the region of 15-30 Foreign Military bases sitting on German soil

That pretty much meets all the criteria anyone, even an idiot, could insist upon regarding an acceptable definition of the word "Occupied Country"

Anyone continuing to protest regarding the description of Germany as an Occupied Country should just, at this stage, be regarded as a-good-deal-more-than-a-little deficient in either the intelligence or honest Dept. [or both]

Posted by: lol | May 9 2014 11:03 utc | 113

@35
No, not whoring. Merkel is trying to save Edward Snowden's life.

Posted by: okie farmer | May 8, 2014 4:19:27 PM | 36

ROFLMAO - the truly idiotic things that some people can convince themselves to believe, is an never ending source of amusement

Angela Merkel is 'trying to save brave little Eddie Snowden's LIFE!!!!!" [cue dramatic handwavery] -

The very same Angela Merkel that was once a Official-propagandist for her local communist Party in E Germany, and that somehow managed to Miraculously rise to the top of a right-wing Christian Democrat Party, is suddenly transformed into a principled defender of Human rights, concerned with the rights all people everywhere to be free from Gov't spying and intrusion?

I only ask because I want to make sure that we are talking about the same Angela Merkel here (Perhaps there's another famous Angela Merkel, who also just happens to be a leading German Politician, and somehow I haven't heard about the 2nd Angela Merkel)

Comedy Gold if ever I saw it

Posted by: lol | May 9 2014 11:17 utc | 114

New assaults by the military, going on now
http://rt.com/news/157884-shooting-mariupol-eastern-ukraine/

Posted by: Anonymous | May 9 2014 11:23 utc | 115

ha ha scalawag 50 I remembered your post.

old skeptic 66 I hope you are wrong and have been digging up positive points. i’ll try and dig up some more..

> Petri 59. I don’t think so. Christensen has a distinctive face that photographs well, therefore he always looks like himself in photographs. Not one of those muddy faces that looks different in different conditions. Ruptly man (clip) is not really very similar. (i don’t know who he is etc.)

1) he has brown eyes, not blue. Sometimes blue eyes can look brown because the photo is ‘dark’, etc. but these imho are really brown

2) in the second photo (or see the clip) when you see him in profile, you can easily see, estimate, that he has a medium forehead height, and a slightly sorta bulky skull towards the back, but all very average really. Christensen has a very high forehead, a long face, long jutting chin as well. That is really enough to say, not the same man. One might measure these proportions and make a sketch, etc.

a portrait of Christensen that shortens his face (as compared to the ones posted in the original), actually a better match with Ruptly.

http://tinyurl.com/kxtqm7q

Lastly, intuition, Ruptly moves like an Eastern European, not a Dane. And he is a whole lot shorter as well imho. That might be estimated.

Many ppl have superficial resemblances in photos. While looking at all these pix I saw two Christensen look-alikes (nothing to do with Ukraine.)


Posted by: Noirette | May 9 2014 11:23 utc | 116

lol 112

I agree completly, that Merkel isnt whoring out when she reject support or even grant Snowden an interview, is unbelievably naive.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 9 2014 11:25 utc | 117

Posted by: lol | May 9, 2014 7:03:53 AM | 111

I think you mistook irony.

By your reasoning Britain is occupied.

It is called NATO.

US concentration of bases in Germany are mainly due to the cold war. There are new imaginary frontiers now. Or maybe, as we are about to find out there are none left.

Posted by: somebody | May 9 2014 11:29 utc | 118

Well, in that fundamental sense, Britain is 'occupied'. We all are. Everybody is, except, shall we say, Russia, Belarus, China and Iran.

In the immediate post-war period, the British joke about the innumerable Usaian servicemembers (mostly USAF) scattered about the place was "over-paid, over-sexed and over here."

Orwell called Britain 'Airstrip One'.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 9 2014 11:41 utc | 119

@103 A little knowledge is dangerous. Gold, silver and base metals are hoarded by governments not by little people in their cellars. Silver can be hoarded by people and made into coins for emergency use when fiat collapses. A flat line in a graph for the Gold inventory held by the government is ridiculous or an outright deception for the gullible. The first thing that got relocated from Kiev to New York were 33 tons of Gold as collateral. Same thing happened in Iraq, Lybia, etc.
http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/03/21/the-latest-heist-us-quietly-snatches-the-ukraines-gold-reserves/
The first thing that Kiev did with the advance from IMF is to buy one billion in gold....so zerohedge asks the question whether the Federal Reserve uses Ukraine to buy Gold by proxy?
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-06/and-first-thing-ukraine-will-buy-imf-money
Yeah, yeah, it is all stupid talk! Wrong!
Russia and South Africa (both BRICS countries) are the largest producers of Gold. They benefit from a non-manipulated supply and demand fluctuation of the price. That would give the BRICS too much power. So the PLUNGE PROTECTION TEAM manipulates the price of gold to be low. Then every country tries to buy gold at that price which is difficult if not impossible. Any country hoarding gold for trading in gold is a threat to the PETRODOLLAR. Bombs, invasion and democracy follows right after.

Posted by: Sun Tzu | May 9 2014 11:45 utc | 120

Posted by: William Bowles | May 9, 2014 6:30:24 AM | 109

Posted by: Anonymous | May 9, 2014 7:23:06 AM | 113

Local cops vs the junta fascists. The fascists were shooting at any one, even shot an RT reporter at the scene. The bullet went through the armor vest he was wearing.

Posted by: scalawag | May 9 2014 11:47 utc | 121

scalawag

Yes and here the facists keep killing cilians,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kno4MEp9sPY
Really sick people that wont stop.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 9 2014 11:50 utc | 122

I think you mistook irony.

Posted by: somebody | May 9, 2014 7:29:44 AM | 116

ya reckon, eh?

(Perhaps it is so. But I'll let the person who made the original comment speak for themselves, cos I'm sceptical of the notion that you'd be the go-to-guy around here on 'irony' tbh ;-)

By your reasoning Britain is occupied.

rowan above answered it at least as well as I could

US concentration of bases in Germany are mainly due to the cold war. There are new imaginary frontiers now. Or maybe, as we are about to find out there are none left.

Oh - I see

Silly old me - I completely forgot about the "Cold War" that commenced immediately after Germany had been defeated, destroyed and Militarily Occupied by the Zio-US-UK Empire - dooh!

===========

'Airstrip One'.

Exactly - they don't call it Airstrip One for nothin' ya know

Posted by: lol | May 9 2014 11:53 utc | 123

@ "somebody" whatever ye don't - don't "mistook the irony"/sarcasm

Posted by: lol | May 9 2014 11:54 utc | 124

Posted by: Sun Tzu | May 9, 2014 7:45:41 AM | 118

Yeah all "facts" in your post unconfirmed "rumours". But some people peddle conspiracy theories whilst trying to sell gold.

Posted by: somebody | May 9 2014 12:03 utc | 125

I see the common trend, those who live in those countries (Germany, Saudis, Japan, S.Korea, Lithuania, etc) like to think they are independent. You know, proud nationalism and so on. I met so many people from clearly puppet regime countries (like Gulf monarchies) who will argue to death how independent they are :)

The best litmus test of any countries independence, is if their policies are dictated by their own or someone else.

Lets take Germany for example, after their defeat, they have restrictions militarily (cant have nukes, etc), and follow the lead by US on any important topic. Germany have limited say even on topics which directly affect their well-being. Like losing tens of billions by cutting off Iran based on fake US pretexts, or spying, etc. Now US is pushing to cut off Russia and literally destroy Germanies economy, so when own survival is at stake, Germany is showing a little of intransigence, but this could very quickly change if US is successful of starting war in Ukraine with Russia's invasion. If Germany would really be independent, they would stay out (or even allying with Russia to form Eurasian mega-profitable zone), but currently in case of war they would again follow what US tells them to, even if its more or less suicide.

Germany have more independence than arab monarchies, but lets not confuse a little more freedom with actual independence, they never regained it after WWII, neither did Japan, and many others.

Compare to actually free to make their-own-choices countries, like Russia, China, Iran, etc. Its no comparison.

Posted by: Harry | May 9 2014 12:05 utc | 126

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 9, 2014 7:41:23 AM | 117

Actually, there are no US bases in France. Would you call French policy more independent than Britain's or Germany's because of it?

Right. It does not make a difference.

Posted by: somebody | May 9 2014 12:05 utc | 127

Posted by: Harry | May 9, 2014 8:05:19 AM | 124

Actually, Germany was occupied after World War I. I guess, the power of occupation is overrated.

The best litmus test of any countries independence, is if their policies are dictated by their own or someone else.

The words lacking in that sentence is "people's interest". I am not sure the countries you name as independent do that.

I haven't noticed Germany's economy being destroyed since rebuilding after 1949. A new war for "German independence" certainly would do just that.

Posted by: somebody | May 9 2014 12:22 utc | 128

France since de Gaulle kicked NATO out has been treated as something of a spoiled pet.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 9 2014 12:29 utc | 129

@ 123 Unconfirmed rumors? So the BRICS' South Africa and Russia are not the largest world producers of Gold? That doesn't give them too mucch power like Oil & Gas gives to OPEC and non OPEC producers? Those that by-passed the Petrodollar like Saddam and Gaddaffi are not dead? The largest inventory of Gold held in the NYFRB is not there to assist the PPT "to stabilize" a low price for the shiny metal? The metal demand goes up and a large amount of "paper Gold" floods the market to plunge the Gold price. Conspiracy theories? you got to be kidding yourself!

Posted by: Sun Tzu | May 9 2014 12:30 utc | 130

France has now rejoined NATO, of course. This was one of Sarcozy's achievements, wasn't it. French culture in the distinctive national sense that de Gaulle wanted to defend, is certainly dead. It has been replaced by a pioneeringly awful pomo/Jewish ersatz. And it's probably relevant that de Gaulle's successor, Georges Pompidou, was a banker and I believe widely known to be a Rothschild front man. The replacement itself was interesting. De gaulle resigned after the May 1968 events, which perhaps should be regarded as the prototype of all the colour revolutions. And I blush to admit I was completely deceived by it, being only 17 at the time.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 9 2014 12:35 utc | 131

Putin have now landed in Crimea, will probably be a important speech..

Posted by: Anonymous | May 9 2014 12:49 utc | 132

France has now rejoined NATO, of course

Paris - Courtesy of that great socialist mr Mitterand :)

Posted by: lol | May 9 2014 12:55 utc | 133

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 9, 2014 8:35:56 AM | 129

De Gaulle never left NATO.

Posted by: somebody | May 9 2014 12:56 utc | 134

Any one for translation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fHfWKcGi4g
Mariupol

Posted by: Mina | May 9 2014 13:08 utc | 135

Rowan Berkeley #69

The evidence is not the montage alone, it just serves as a hint.

Here is a link to the Ruptly video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2PTeUBCPAQ&t=0m24s
The suspect person is best seen in the end at 25 seconds.

I read elsewhere, many of the "OSCE" team members had been in Ukraine for some time, even before February 20, 2014. In fact, the image claims that John G.O. Christensen arrived in Ukraine on November 16, 2014.

A Google image search for John Christensen OSCE produces a number of good quality images for comparison.
https://www.google.fi/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&q=John+Christensen+OSCE

I would say there is a close resemblance.

None of the is is proof of anything, but I think the allegation is so serious that it requires an explanation of Christensen's whereabouts on February 20th from Christensen himself, the Danish Government or the OSCE. Unless they can provide an alibi I am ready to believe that Christensen is the guy in the Ruptly video.

Assuming the Christensen was in Ukraine in February, what was his overt mission? To observe! What would he be observing? The events on Maidan. Where and how would he do that? From a top floor window of Hotel Ukraine. (See their web site here and you will understand why it is the place to be.)

It is therefore in no way surprising that there exist a video of him at the Hotel Ukraine on February 20th, with a telescope in his hand, and a camera pointed out of the window on Maidan or Instytutska.

What is incriminating on the video is that he is doing more that just observing. He seems to be instructing the snipers, or who ever the other armed men in camouflage in the same room are.

One caveat though. I have not identified the rifle the other insurgent is carrying. It has been suggested that many of the guns the Maidan insurgents are using are non-lethal air guns. The rifle does not seem to be a military grade sniper rifle – none would be needed though as the distances are hardly more that 100 meters.

***

Every time some important revelations happen, our research wiki goes down. Now it seems to be back up!

Posted by: Petri Krohn | May 9 2014 13:17 utc | 136

It's clear today that fascism and communism were not defeated, although Hitler was, and the Soviet Union collapsed. Odessa was the turning point. Although many in the west don't understand what is happening, they will before long.

In solidarity with the anti-fascist brothers and sisters of the Soviet Union and East Ukraine

Posted by: anonymous | May 9 2014 13:19 utc | 137

The idea that Germany and Britain are occupied by the US is a favoured meme among those who regard the US government as all powerful and diabolically cunning.

It is also greatly favoured by those who hate to confess that their own national ruling class is, as rulers always have done, very happy to have alien troops on hand just in case the natives explode and carry their own fellow countrymen in uniform with them.

After the war the European ruling classes, with the exception only of Britain's, were very weakened by their record of enthusiastic collaboration with the fascists. In many cases they had virtually disappeared into basements and attics where they awaited their fate at the hands of very angry Resistance fighters and the masses whom they, in conjunction with the occupation, had oppressed during, much as they had before, the war.

Had the US and Britain not filled Greece and Italy with troops both countries would have selected Communist governments, despite Stalin. Equally the Spanish regime, appallingly unpopular, would have vapourised had it not been for stalwart US military support.

So far as Germany is concerned there was an occupation which was supported by most European and American opinion who did not want Germany re-armed. In order to secure public support, particularly in Britain and France, for re-armament it was necessary to guarantee that the military occupation would continue. The cost of this to Britain, whose British Army On the Rhine comprised tens of thousands of men, was enormous and a major cause of economic decline.
Not coincidentally the German economy benefited greatly from the constant net infusions of foreign currency.

As to the present it is very convenient for German politicians to blame their kowtowing to the US on "occupation forces" (though I doubt that any do) but the reality is that the troops are there very much with the agreement of a ruling class which increasingly sees itself as part of an Imperial elite.
The French position is different but the fact that De Gaulle, at the height of the events in 1968 withdrew to a NATO military base across the border in Germany is more than symbolic of the meaning of all these bases.
Yes, Germany, Britain and France are occupied. As is the United States. They are occupied by forces at the command of the ruling class.

The fact that people like troll-lol feel that they can get away with publishing opinions on matters of which they know nothing is nothing less than an insult to the intelligence of everyone who reads this blog. We deserve more from British Military Intelligence: "find us a troll who knows something."

(The "Overpaid, oversexed, over here" jibe at Americans was of wartime provenance not post war. During the war there were millions of US and Canadian troops in Britain, after the war demobilisation was rapid. And, of course, most of those men were passing through Britain en route to Europe. Many a landlady, and her daughter, lamented their passing.)

Posted by: bevin | May 9 2014 13:25 utc | 138

Hello b,
Since no one has mentioned it already, if your analysis is correct, it seems as if Mr. Putin has gone Joe Stalin on us. The Warsaw uprising was timed to meet advancing Russian troops, who mysteriously had other things to do. Wasn't Poland a separate country back then? Sure was, but thirty years earlier it had been part of mother Russia.

Posted by: Dave of Maryland | May 9 2014 13:43 utc | 139

Actually, Germany was occupied after World War I. I guess, the power of occupation is overrated.

Posted by: somebody | May 9, 2014 8:22:45 AM | 126

I didn't bother checking your link cos why waste time doing that when I know it's going to be just more of your usual nonsensical bullsh*t, but actually, contrary to what you are , no doubt disingenuously, trying to imply it was not the whole of Germany that was occupied after WW1, merely the rhineland/ruhr.

and, more importantly, it was then Militarily Unoccupied a few years later (sometime around 1925 iirc)- so it lasted at most 6 or 7 yrs - which makes it a completely different situation than the complete destruction of Germany in the 40's, and subsequent 70 year ongoing occupation since then - that is a length of time 10 times greater than the brief occupation post WW1, just in case you had not noticed

so there really is no comparison between the 2 occupations - none whatsoever - though it should come as a surprise to absolutely no one, (except maybe the clueless Ass-Clown Left ;-) that you seek to so disingenuously claim that that both occupations are in anyway comparable in terms of the effect they would have on the particular nation under Military Occupation

I guess, for you, the power of honesty and accuracy is over-rated ;-)

Posted by: lol | May 9 2014 13:58 utc | 140

@ 136: "Yes, Germany, Britain and France are occupied. As is the United States. They are occupied by forces at the command of the ruling class."

And not limited to those mentioned. More on the way as the oligarchs unite.

Posted by: ben | May 9 2014 14:01 utc | 141

136

Back so soon from your whirlwind fact-finding tour of the whole of Eastern Europe***?


-----

*** Also known as "Prague" :-)


Posted by: lol | May 9 2014 14:05 utc | 142

@lol #121:

Yes that was irony. Germany is occupied.

This does not mean that Germany does not try to pursue an independent foreign policy every once in a while. For example, it wanted to restore its former Nazi-time influence over eastern Europe. So it was the first country to recognize Croatia. But USG quickly outflanked that move by bombing Yugoslavia using NATO. Germany wanted to have more than just economic influence over the former Yugoslavia, but the US used that to consolidate NATO's position in post-Soviet Europe.

@bevin #136:

No sovereign country would allow the kind of spying that the NSA does in Germany. German elites get spied on just like anyone else. German elites have no say in the matter, because Germany is occupied. German elites would like to have same status as the Five Eyes, but the US is not giving it to them. Germany is not sovereign, as Russia, China, and Iran are. Hence it is occupied.

Germany's and Russia's interests are more congruent those of Germany and the US. Why does Germany side with the US instead of with Russia? Because it is occupied by the US, not by Russia.

Posted by: Demian | May 9 2014 14:23 utc | 143

Yes, Germany, Britain and France are occupied. As is the United States. They are occupied by forces at the command of the ruling class.

So, you're saying lol's correct, then? Or are we to assume that within the "ruling class" that you think that the power structure is egalitarian? That it's just a big ole elite kibbutz where the Americans - with at least ten times the military power at their command of any other elite member - meekly share in the decision-making? That the American elite with said military power and who do most of the dirty dirty work don't demand a larger cut of the pie? Yeah, I'm sure after witnessing decade upon decade of the American "ruling class" successfully - i.e., they haven't been punished or stopped - training/deploying death squad after death squad, assassination after assassination, false flag after false flag the other elite in the "Ruling Class Lounge" probably are totally down with pissing off their American ruling class counterparts, right? What could happen, huh?

Nah, you're right, in looking at the greedy murderous psychopaths that comprise the American elite, I'm sure they are willing to "take one for the team" without any thought of recompense or increase in power. There's ample evidence for that.

You also make it sound like people/posters who think the US and its long-documented history of worldwide nefarious actions are saying so out of some sort of pride or something when what they are trying to do is wake the MILLIONS of people on this planet who are still so deluded to think that the US is a force of good in the world.

I mean, are you saying that if everyone on the planet patently understood that the United States was the prime mover of evil on the planet that would be a BAD thing? That it WOULDN'T maybe disallow the US - or its ruling class - from having such carte blanche in carrying out its schemes? That is WOULDN'T be harder - or at least a whole lot messier - for the US to do business in a world where everyone fucking viscerally hated it?

Note: YOU INSULT people's intelligence - but especially fucking American peons - when you make statements as if people don't understand that it's NOT the entire American populace that people are speaking to when they us the terms "America", "US", etc. OOOOHHHH, I get it, so when conscientious people say "America/US" doing all that terrible shit they are really talking about the American "ruling class" (which also rules the "ruling class") and not the country as a whole! Thanks, I somehow didn't fucking understand that. Yes, some of us down here have noticed that there's a ruling class of which we are not members but still use the terms "America/US" when speaking to the actions of said elite class b/c - among other things - it's a whole lot easier to type.

For a quick example of the still pervasive "America is good" meme, go ahead and read the comments section of any Guardian story for example in which the author mentions - even obliquely - that the US might be at the heart of a given crisis. Sure enough, there will be fuckloads of British etc posters/readers who will sit there and actually say that the author is engaging in America-bashing.

American-bashing?!!! After all of the murder and destruction that the US has been responsible for over the years there still are intelligent people who think a person - any person - could possible be accused of sullying or tarnishing the image of the US - or rather using your parlance - and/or it's "ruling class"?!!!

Holy shit, brother, this is what I mean when I constantly say that we are FAAAAARRRRR away from some sort of Great Awakening among the proles to which you sometimes allude.

To that end I will give you Bobbie "Fuck You 9/11 Truth Investigators" Parry's latest two columns on Ukraine. In the first Parry embarrassingly sucks off Obama and gives lie to his "hard-hitting" image by making it seems as if Obama really really wants to stem the tide in Ukraine and in the second he again drops trou and makes it known to the American "ruling class" - I don't want to fuck him, that's fer sure - that he's open for business. It's whoring time!!!

Posted by: JSorrentine | May 9 2014 14:25 utc | 144

Interesting take on the recent alleged 'truce', over at Xymphora

The Mystical Knight Defender of Mother Russia

I don't know where this idea came from, the idea that Putin is the Mystical Knight Defender of Mother Russia, traveling the universe defending Russian speakers from oppression.

Oh wait! I do know where this idea came from.

It came from the internet.

It came from Zionist agents provocateurs attempting to prod Russia into doing what the Zionists want, for Russia to invade Ukraine.

It is funny that every leader has a Jew at his or her shoulder, whispering sweet nothings in his or her ear:

  • "Don't be a wimp, invade Afghanistan/Iraq/Libya/Syria/Iran/Ukraine."
  • "If you don't slaughter a lot of people, you and your country will lose all respect and credibility."
  • "Do you actually have testicles?"

It got so bad that Barry actually had to call them out on it, mentioning that it was exactly this kind of campaign that led to the utter disaster that was the American attack on Iraq.

Putin is not the guardian of the Russian speakers of Ukraine, who, God help them, are going to have to look out for themselves. Putin's main goal is to look out for the immediate financial interests of the 1% of Russia. His bigger goal is to create a new world financial order centered on the BRICS led by Russia. Invading Ukraine would set both these goals back. Putin wants an orderly calming of this completely artificial Zionist crisis in Ukraine, and he has acted consistently with that goal throughout.

Can't say I agree with it all, but certainly Putin's main goal IS to look out for the immediate financial interests of the 1% of Russia, otherwise he'd have been ousted long ago

Posted by: lol | May 9 2014 14:33 utc | 145

I put my #73, #75, #76 together as one continuous item and tried to post it on Saker's comments thread today, but it didn't make the grade. I suppose saying that it might possibly be of some significance that RT.com's Middle East Bureau chief is Jewish was a bit too close to the bone for him. The post itself is about thermonuclear war-fighting, which he evidently knows a lot about, though I don't see its relevance. But the comments are all "AngloZionist" this and "ZioNazi" that, so I thought my ideas might come in handy, at least for those who like to think things through.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 9 2014 14:43 utc | 146

@lol #121:

Yes that was irony. Germany is occupied.

Posted by: Demian | May 9, 2014 10:23:09 AM | 141

My apologies then, Sir

===================

So, you're saying lol's correct, then? Or are we to assume that within the "ruling class" that you think that the power structure is egalitarian?

Posted by: JSorrentine | May 9, 2014 10:25:22 AM | 142

Nah - he's saying that there IS a ruling Class, but don't ever dare try to actually name them, cos that sort of info would be not only

  • completely useless (cos who the hell cares who they actually might be, certainly NOT his hero Russell Brand , especially when he's preparing to bury himself balls-deep inside one of them ;-)

but also

  • divisive,
  • divide-and-conquer-ish,
  • completely MI6-ish,

and of course, natch,

  • downright anti-semitic!!!!! (cue dramatic hand-wavery!!!)

Posted by: lol | May 9 2014 14:44 utc | 147

I suppose saying that it might possibly be of some significance that RT.com's Middle East Bureau chief is Jewish was a bit too close to the bone

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 9, 2014 10:43:19 AM | 144

Staged or Unstaged?

Posted by: lol | May 9 2014 14:47 utc | 148

Posted by: Demian | May 9, 2014 10:23:09 AM | 141

The fact that the US extensively spies on the German leadership in the context of the US spying on its own leadership (US Senate) means what?

Who owns NSA spying and who has access to the information of this spying?

So if the NSA is an indication of occupation then who has occupied the United States?

Of course you can force the politics of a country by military occupation, likelihood though is to immense costs (soft power and economic power) to yourself, which the Soviet Union had to find out in Eastern Europe and Afghanistan and the US found out in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.

In Europe the US work on the concept of allies, which means they have a lot of influence but that influence depends on US soft and economic power.
When both decrease the influence decreases.

My take is that Russia and China combined can counter US power, but China is not prepared to back Russia in everything they do. As this plays out now Russia and the US are having the conflict and China is the arbiter.
Europe will aim at balancing the three.

As the Obama administration set out to do the opposite this is quite ironic.

None of the Ukraine crisis is rational. The Western fantasy is to integrate Ukraine and finally Russia into the EU and NATO, the Russian fantasy is to integrate Ukraine and the EU. So what is the fight about if the goal is integration?

Posted by: somebody | May 9 2014 14:47 utc | 149

Adding:

Or maybe your statements are predicated on the belief that the members of the world-wide "ruling class" are not only egalitarian but also truly cosmopolitan and that the secret allegiance they share always takes precedence over any pesky remnants of national/personal interest/sympathy. Is that what you are saying? That the elite have reached the stage of perfect collusion? That these high-minded chaps sincerely do all believe in the NWO and its tenets? If that's the case - and it's perfectly valid to examine evidence from this model/viewpoint - then I'm surprised as you always seem to be more the complex real-world type. I just happen to think that "New World Order" was a advertising/marketing phrase rolled out so as to make American hegemony more amenable to the 2nd tier members of the "ruling class". No, no, you're not America's bitch you're a super-duper special - and EQUAL! - secret member of the Future Club!! How exciting, right?

Posted by: JSorrentine | May 9 2014 14:54 utc | 150

@somebody #147:

So if the NSA is an indication of occupation then who has occupied the United States?

Israel’s Aggressive Spying in the U.S. Mostly Hushed Up

Despite strident denials this week by Israeli officials, Israel has been caught carrying out aggressive espionage operations against American targets for decades, according to U.S. intelligence officials and congressional sources. And they still do it. They just don’t get arrested very often.

As Newsweek reported on Tuesday, American counter-intelligence officials told members of the House Judiciary and Foreign Affairs committees at the end of January that Israel's current espionage activities in America are "unrivaled and unseemly," going far beyond the activities of other close allies, such as Germany, France, the U.K. and Japan. […]

Beginning in the mid-1990s, well after Israel promised to stop spying in the U.S. in the wake of the Pollard affair, the FBI regularly felt compelled to summon Israeli diplomats in D.C. for a scolding, two former top counterintelligence officials told Newsweek. During the decade following 9/11, one said, the Israelis were summoned “dozens” of times and told to “cut the shit,” as one, a former top FBI official, put it. But as an “ally,” the Israelis almost always got off with only a warning.

But no matter how stern the FBI’s lecture – usually delivered personally to the embassy’s senior intelligence representative – the Israelis were unmoved, another former top intelligence official said. “You can't embarrass an Israeli,” he said. “It’s just impossible to embarrass them. You catch them red-handed, and they shrug and say, 'Okay now, anything else?'”

Always lurking, former intelligence officials say, was the powerful “Israeli lobby,” the network of Israel’s friends in Congress, industry and successive administrations, Republican and Democratic, ready to protest any perceived slight on the part of U.S. security officials. A former counterintelligence specialist told Newsweek he risked Israel’s wrath merely by providing routine security briefings to American officials, businessmen and scientists heading to Israel for meetings and conferences.

“We had to be very careful how we warned American officials,” he said. “We regularly got calls from members of Congress outraged by security warnings about going to Israel. And they had our budget. When ... the director of the CIA gets a call from an outraged congressman–’What are these security briefings you're giving? What are these high-level threat warnings about travel to Tel Aviv you're giving? This is outrageous’ – he has to pay close attention. There was always this political delicacy that you had to be aware of.”

Posted by: Demian | May 9 2014 15:19 utc | 152

What Putin is.

Well the one thing he definitely is, is a nationalist, so I suppose he holds that in common with Stalin. I'd also say that he is probably still some kind of quasi-Stalinist, insofar as being raised in the Soviet Union and being a KGB agent and part of the political class, he's also, and I'm being very charitable, a survivor.

So to what degree he's a creature of the 'oligarchy' must be tempered by his past and his sense of being a Russian and a Russian on a mission...to 'rehabilitate' not the Soviet Union obviously, but a strong and independent Russia, so he shares this with Stalin.

But as Samir Amin put it, without putting in place economic policies that benefit the people and challenge the neoliberal agenda, whipping up a nationalist fervour by itself, soon loses its attraction.

I think the Russian political class are in a real bind. Taking on the Empire would be suicide, on the other hand conceding ground is almost as unacceptable.

Seen in this perspective, the reabsorbing of the Crimea, was obviously long planned for and done, it looks, before it became strategically/politically impossible to carry out (like now, for example).

I think it was this act (of retaking the Crimea) that got the Empire really pissed off, it blew their plans out of the window. I don't think they expected the Russians to do this. I think they thought they would roll over and play dead. But Steven Seagal is a massively popular figure in Russia, what with its macho culture that's personified by Putin wrestling bears, flying planes or whatever he does for relaxation.

Ukraine is part of a strategic plan, long in the making and current events are merely the continuation of the essentially the same old Cold War plans to remove Russia as a competitor. I think Putin, in some ways like Stalin, is afraid of the West and doesn't want to provoke the pirates (and who can blame him, they destroy entire countries in blink of an eye).

But I think Russia is finally learning the lessons that all those countries that have resisted (or tried to) the Empire have long learned; they try to accommodate, they use diplomacy (now a debased currency) and engagement, they sign treaties but treaties are made to be broken, well they are if you judge it by the Empire's behaviour.

The Russians are walking a tightrope. They'll accommodate the West but only up to a point.

Posted by: William Bowles | May 9 2014 15:23 utc | 153

Posted by: Demian | May 9, 2014 11:19:57 AM | 150

:-))

NSA spies on Israeli ministers

in other news

NSA is sharing data with Israel before filtering out information on Americans

Let's say we all live in a goldfish bowl.

But there is also this very interesting Saudi Arabian software company Ptech.

Ptech's roster of clients included several governmental agencies, including the United States Armed Forces, NATO, Congress, the Department of Energy, the Department of Justice, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Customs, the FAA, the IRS, the Secret Service, and the White House. Despite the eventual 2009 indictment of PTech's CEO and CFO, as late as May 2004 they were still contracted by several federal agencies, including the White House.

Ptech had a security clearance to work on sensitive military projects dating to 1997.

Israel and Saudi Arabia are black boxes.

Posted by: somebody | May 9 2014 15:44 utc | 154

Not off topic I hope. Everybody's favorite hero/sell out has a book coming out.....

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/05/08/keith-alexander-unplugged-bushobama-matters/

Posted by: dh | May 9 2014 16:02 utc | 155

De Gaulle kicked SHAPE (Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe) out of France, which is why it is now in Belgium. He definitely did not appreciate that particular prolongation of WW2 overlordship (and nomenclature) into the 1960s. That he was "anti-American" is a cliché. It is probably the memory of his insults (narcissists have long memories) that led to the Great Usaian Freedom Fries Frenzy.

:-)

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 9 2014 16:05 utc | 156

Oh yeah, and while all of you are still pondering the reality that was the Odessa massacre etc. the US is moving troops - just a few, we promise! - into oil rich Nigeria as the celebrity-adorned campaign of "Bring Our Girls Back" is dominating the Western MSM.

Why everyone's favorite intelligence front group, Amnesty, is stating that what happened in Nigeria was a "failure to protect" - cough cough - as the government had advanced warning of the raid.

Posted by: JSorrentine | May 9 2014 16:12 utc | 157

Posted by: dh | May 9, 2014 12:02:28 PM | 153

We are completely off topic here, except if we assume that Ukraine was created as a diversion from the NSA scandal.

Which in Germany does not so much consist of the US spying on German politicians and citizens but in the question how much of the data was fed back to German secret services.

In the meantime the "Kyiv government" seems bent on making sure South Eastern regions do secede and elections cannot take place - i.e. the contrary of trying to win hearts and minds.

Posted by: somebody | May 9 2014 16:17 utc | 158

b posted a 2008 wiki cable, see also:

Quote (my bold) ::

In July 2004 Victor Pinchuk gathered about 30 European leaders for the first Yalta European Seminar to debate Ukraine’s prospects of joining the EU. The participants included Prime Minister of Canada (1993–2003) Jean Chretien, French MP Dominique Strauss-Kahn and member of European Parliament Marek Siwiec. Following the seminar, an independent philanthropic foundation, the Yalta European Strategy, was established in Ukraine.

The YES Annual Meetings held in Yalta’s Livadia Palace have become an open platform to discuss and look for new ideas and views on paths to European, Ukrainian and global development. These meetings bring together over 200 politicians, diplomats, statesmen, journalists, analysts and business leaders from more than 20 countries.  The dialogue on global challenges broadens the vision on the situation inside Ukraine and the prospects for the country’s development in the modern world. It is also an incentive to find common ground between countries, common interests and values. (...)”

From the YES = Yalta European Strategy, site, about its founding.

http://yes-ukraine.org/en/Yalta-annual-meeting

Here the present board, from their site today:

http://yes-ukraine.org/en/about/yes-board

Posted by: Noirette | May 9 2014 16:19 utc | 159

OT(?)

Military experts, is this real and if so what is it an advanced drone?

Posted by: JSorrentine | May 9 2014 16:21 utc | 160

@158

Reading the comments it looks like the consensus is fake. Oh well.

Posted by: JSorrentine | May 9 2014 16:29 utc | 161

Here's my conclusion for the day: all this is just a toy conflict between toy politicians in toy countries. There is an overall, global Jewish HQ. It doesn't have to be anywhere in particular, because countries are just toys to it. Putin's immediate Jewish controllers are the Lubavitchers, who are distinguished by an especially maniacal hatred of everything even remotely leftist. They will eliminate the rebels of south and east Ukraine, if necessary one by one, for this reason, that they appear to them to be leftist or even communist holdouts. Apart from that, it doesn't matter to them which countries survive and which do not. They may be trying to set up a final, apocalyptic nucear war; after all, the Lubavitchers believe that their idiot robot god will save them and will create for them a new, Edenic planet after the destruction of the rest of the human species. Sweet dreams, all...

;-)

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 9 2014 17:12 utc | 162

162

But is there a layer above these alleged Lubavitcher managers/front men of yours?

And who or what might that consist of?

Are they mere, witting or unwitting, dispensible tools of hidden masters, easy targets for the wrath of the mythical 99%, in case they one day decide "enough is enough"? Or are they not mere frontmen but masters themselves, in their own domain at least?

Or am I just talking bollix? ;-)

Posted by: lol | May 9 2014 22:42 utc | 163

Boko Haram and the Girls

Feminism run amok, presumably of the kind Putin's nationalism wants to limit in Russia.
This group has kidnapped and mass massacred all-men groupings with nary a plaint from the American Elite.
In February, 59 boys were killed in a massacre at a secondary school.
Many a (truly) fake leftist I have met claims to be anti-war, anti-empire and anti-establishment....but wants
the US to keep tens of thousands of troops in Afghanistan so that Afghani girls can go to school.

Posted by: sughoop@aol.com | May 10 2014 0:49 utc | 164

One thing about the LNG that was big news during the 'GWOT' but has gone by the wayside since the fracking 'boom' (or was that a bust? [RT@billmon]) is its value as a terror target. But seeing how the United States runs most if not all of the world's key terror networks - probably not something to worry about.

----

@JSore - here you are deriding people who type on the internet all day instead of doing or whatever - I'm curious to know what you do? What is it that you do that makes you feel like you're accomplishing for the people of the world being crushed by the US Empire?

----

@village idiot: "Putin's main goal IS to look out for the immediate financial interests of the 1% of Russia"

Still an idiot. Still pushing CIA talking points. Still a Russophobic cipher. Are you auditioning to be the new Clod J. Hangnail or something? Because you know, you were the old Clod J. Hangnail.

Posted by: guest77 | May 10 2014 1:53 utc | 165

162: But is there a layer above these alleged Lubavitcher managers/front men of yours? And who or what might that consist of? Are they mere, witting or unwitting, dispensable tools of hidden masters, easy targets for the wrath of the mythical 99%, in case they one day decide "enough is enough"? Or are they not mere frontmen but masters themselves, in their own domain at least? Or am I just talking bollix? ;-) Posted by: lol | May 9, 2014 6:42:43 PM | 163
Yes, another layer, the other pole of the Jewish ruling class binary. It isn't really above the rabbis though, it's more equal than that. Gilad Atzmon in his lecture in Geneva a month or two ago gave a very simple account of what all students of Jewish history know anyway, and he went to the length of calling it a eugenic policy. We usually interpret eugenics in a negative sense, but this is positive eugenics, and I agree with Gilad that it has indeed worked very effectively. It's very simple: the richest Jews marry their daughters to the brightest yeshiva boys, who are usually identified even in childhood as illuim, geniuses. So you have a continuous intertwining or interbraiding between rich families and Talmudic scholars. This has been going on at least since the middle ages, and it has produced a hybrid ruling class. So you can't simply say that the rich men stand above the rabbis and issue instructions to them. It's more intimate than that. My favourite account of Putin's relationship with the Lubavitchers is still this one, which I found on a really obscure and now extinct Russian Orthodox site. I don't know what's happened to the author, so if anyone should recognise his name anywhere in current Ukrainian affairs I would be delighted to hear news of him: Selected Reminiscences of Eduard Hodos (2002). I've recommended this before, because I absolutely love it.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 10 2014 3:44 utc | 166

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