Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 22, 2014

Ukraine: Army Soldiers Killed In Friendly Fire Incident?

Something weird happened in east Ukraine today. Allegedly some insurgents from the "Gorlovka" group attacked a Ukrainian military checkpoint near the town Volnovakha in Donetsk oblast. Some 13 soldiers were killed, over 30 wounded and several armored personal carriers were destroyed (vid). There are no reports yet of wounded or killed insurgents.

It does not sound plausible to me that a group of rag tag insurgents only recently formed and without much fighting experience attacks a platoon plus size military unit and destroys it completely.

There is also video that shows two Ukrainian MI24-Hind helicopter gunships making several heavy bomb runs in the area of the incident. The Guardian's Shaun Walker confirmed that Ukrainian helicopters were involved. One explosion in the video seems to be followed by heavy secondary ones which is typically the case when an armed vehicle with lots of ammunition on board gets hit.

Did those helicopter pilots hit the Ukrainian military unit? That would explain the high casualty rate and rather heavy damage.

Was the checkpoint attacked before the helicopters destroyed it? By whom?

Posted by b on May 22, 2014 at 15:48 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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Just read an interesting article on John Helmer ( http://johnhelmer.net/?p=10814 ) about potential election results and one thing really stood out...

according to Andriy Mahera, deputy chairman of the Commission (Ukranian Central Election Commision)

He noted that “voters from any troubled area can cast their ballots in other polling stations. The Commission “has increased the number of polling stations outside the zones marked by secessionist violence precisely to give people a better chance of voting in a safe zone.”


So never fear, they can just say that enough voters from the east changed their mind and decided to vote outside of their home region... Then any actual results from the east can be dismissed as 'unfairly influenced by militants'... What a win for 'democracy'!

Posted by: WG | May 23 2014 6:40 utc | 101

Posted by: WG | May 23, 2014 2:40:15 AM | 100

The place where the shooting took place is straight on the road between Rostov (Russian side, where Yanukovich has opened his government in exile) and Donetsk.

So it makes a lot of sense in terms of supply lines. In some news fresh recruits from Western Ukraine had just arrived. They might have been stupid enough not to take money for letting stuff through.

Posted by: somebody | May 23 2014 6:49 utc | 102

Remember Dmitry Fuchedzhi?

Соучастник о палачах (Partner of the executioners)

He is in Transnistria and gave an interview to NTV. Colonel Cassad gives a description of what he said. The interview itself, along with a (partial?) transcript is here.

Posted by: scalawag | May 23 2014 6:49 utc | 103

Вечерняя сводка полковника Стрелкова. по Славянску за 22 мая 2014 года (Evening summary Colonel Strelkova. in Slavyansk for may 22, 2014)

Yandex translation.

"Evening summary Slavyansk.
Almost all day continued Aboyne lull. But by evening, as expected (as usual) ukry drunk beer and went to shoot at our positions in Semenovka on BMP-2. Quite blatantly and long shot. Then it came into our BMD-1 - she shot a whole ammo on the opposite checkpoint (on the way to Krasniy Liman) - there's something sunburned and exploded, and BMP enemy chose to hide under the bridge. While the court Yes business, our patrol came to the edge of the private sector, has taken 4 Vogue. It seems, well - cries were.
According to unconfirmed reports, on Solzavod shot the enemy spotter. But it is necessary to clarify - there ,in spite of bombardments, weight bumming around civilized people... especially many "blue".
In Eastern tomorrow funeral - ukri , prostredia last night the Karpovka, killed a whole family of three. By chance. Just riddled house ,which suddenly appeared in the line of fire. And they just "sweep" of the area.
Now every 15 minutes hit volleys of heavy mortar (152-mm). Gently send then 4, then 8 rounds at the Semenovka. To get them we have the means unreal - so that they can continue their dirty work. While we have no losses. By the way - guns serve the army team. And yesterday they were shooting, and the day before yesterday. This is to ensure that "boys forcibly drove to fight and they should regret". Force - not by force. but fighting... it Means "at war as at war!"
In Luhansk oblast know until more of Your respectively no comment."

Posted by: scalawag | May 23 2014 7:03 utc | 104

Scalawag, you're pretty brilliant at scanning the Russian-language press, but sometimes even yandex is not enough. You have to tell us what the above #103 means, do some paraphrasing. And please, I know I don't have to tell you - as soon as Strelkov says whether the message purportedly from him, backing the Bes The Demon claim, is confirmed or denied. Thanks.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 23 2014 7:40 utc | 105

Here is the relevant piece from today's RT story. The way I see it, the first italicised claim is correct but the second is confused, ie wrong:

In the neighboring Donetsk People’s Republic, armed clashes also intensified on Thursday. At least 16 Ukrainian rookie soldiers were killed and over 30 injured in an attack on a military checkpoint on the edge of Blagodatnoe village in Donetsk region. While Kiev blames local self-defense for the deadly attack, militias claim they did not conduct this operation and say it a was a staged provocation to frame them. Reports from the ground indicate that unknown attackers arrived in transit vans, with armored vehicles and combat helicopters providing cover for them. Numerous videos posted online showed two combat helicopters shelling the area.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 23 2014 8:03 utc | 106

Kolomoysky's mercenary Donbass Battalion is trapped in Karlivka, 15 km northwest of Donetsk. Desperate calls via telephone from commander Semen Sementchenko on his Facebook page:

1 h ago:

The bulk of the Donbass Battalion is broke. 50% of personnel injured, many have lost a lot of blood. The wounded were taken to an army checkpoint in Krasnoarmeysk.

With are surrounded by a group that has settled in the building until this moment maintained telephone. Just reported that the connection was lost. The fighters have no ammunition. Approach to them is not possible - sniper at work. A BTR needs to drive up to the building and take out the guys. It is impossible to pass past the fueling station.

Near the hospital with the wounded guard exhibited. The rest of the survivors come back. Surrounded by a group of almost all wounded.

I am confident that our movement route was known in advance to terrorists. Since this concentration at normal checkpoint separatists usually not observed. We employ well-trained against Chechen forces.

The leadership and command of ATO (= "anti-terror operation") knows about our situation.

Please bring reinforcements and armored vehicles!
https://www.facebook.com/dostali.hvatit/posts/754117394623037

57 min ago:

Appeal to the separators of "Vostok" battalion!
We need a truce for the exchange of prisoners. Get in touch by phone 0501482373
Colorado, reading my Facebook: pass up! If something glows with our people - is terror in the city!
https://www.facebook.com/dostali.hvatit/posts/754125867955523

Summary here:
Батальон "Донбасс" попал в засаду террористов: ранена половина личного состава (обновлено)
Battalion "Donbass" ambushed by terrorists: half of personnel wounded (updated)

Posted by: Petri Krohn | May 23 2014 8:22 utc | 107

Rowan Berkeley | May 23, 2014 1:12:44 AM | 91

Yes, yes Rowan we have gone over this before. You believe there is a grand puppet master that directs the world. I happen to believe that US imperialism has multiple centers of power as do other nations that both oppose and cooperate with US imperialism. In the US there is, not necessarily in order of influence, national intelligence, the US military, Wall Street finance, oil and gas, manufacturing (sadly losing influence in recent decades), the Zionist lobby of course and lesser power centers.

Posted by: ToivoS | May 23 2014 8:23 utc | 108

#38 @JSorrentine

Your comment is bang on.

The powers that be are parasites and they're running yet another yet another disinformation operation to cover their tracks and distract us.

We need to remain focused on the maniacs who have murdered at least 200000 people over the last few years. They will continue to do so until we stop letting ourselves be led by the nose.

The Forbes article "Everything you know about Ukraine is wrong" was an attempt to throw Kolomisky (deservedly) under the bus. He was the bag-man for the Empire and the likely driver of events from the begining. He was the one who promised to deliver Ukraine to NATO and now that he's failed so miserably he is the best candidate to take the blame. When does the BBC or other 'official' media ever point directly to an oligarch without permission? Kolomisky pissed someone off bigtime. The only thing Russian and Western media can agree on is that 'Strelkov' -- a purveyor of disinfromation from the begining, is a lameass version of 'Kurtz.' Gimmie a break. I've seen dozens of stories from all sides that logically suggest the EU and Russia have made some sort of bargain and are now co-operating to de-escalate and exit this mess. Maybe Kolomoisky and his backers are trying to throw a wrench in the plan but in the end it really doesn't matter. All these people need to be taken down, starting at the top. They're going to keep doing it until we stop falling for their completely fabricated narratives.

Threatening Kolomoisky also sends a message to all the small-fish gangsters concerning who's in charge. Mark my words, he will eventually be rewarded for his service to the Empire no matter how soaked in blood he may be.

What counts is the effect of this debacle on the NWO and the rapidly declining petrodollar hegemony. The Fed is secretly shipping cash to Belgium to hide a continuing policy of quatitative easy in a desperate effort to keep the bubble from bursting. Although cracks have appeared between Russia and Ukraine on the one hand and Ukraine and the EU on the other, a gaping hole has opened up between the Five Eyes and EU and this is all for the good but still doesn't put the genocidal war criminal oligarchs any closer to justice.

The most positive result of this crisis might be if top parasite gangsters are unable to hide another massive theft of wealth on the scale of 2008 behind the smoke and mirrors of Cold War 2 or World War 3.

Posted by: Memewulf | May 23 2014 9:27 utc | 109

Ok, memewolf, I can confirm with pretty high confidence that Kolomoisky is just next cog down from Yulia Tymoshenko, the gas princess, if that's any help. See how difficult it is to directly blame Tymoshenko for anything! I mean (a) she didn't agree to torture the Odessa trade union house victims to death, she only agreed to beat them up and hospitalise them (we have that from the phone call), and (b) she just got out of prison for grand embezzlement, but Yanukovich framed her. So she's still in the running for Princess Fairy Dust of La La Land, what could go wrong?

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 23 2014 9:40 utc | 110

@96 Why the cars and vans had the PrivatBank logo?
These were armored vans used for carrying money - a poor man's APC. Both the insurgents and Kolomoysky's household troops had plausible reason to use them. There were earlier reports that Donetsk government confiscated some, so both sides had them.

Posted by: asubbotin | May 23 2014 10:39 utc | 111

"The Russian Armed Forces General Staff stated that tens of foreign mercenaries are acting in Ukraine on the side of the current Kiev authorities, a high-ranking representative of the country’s General Staff who participates in the 3rd Moscow International Security Conference told reporters on Friday.

“According to available data, dozens of foreign mercenaries, including Americans, are taking part in combat actions on the side of Kiev authorities in south-eastern Ukraine,” the General Staff representative said." 'Foreign mercenaries acting on side of Kiev authorities in Ukraine — Russian General Staff', ITAR-TASS, 23 May 2014

Posted by: William Bowles | May 23 2014 11:21 utc | 112

More Russian comment:

The chief of the Russian Armed Forces General Staff, Gen. Valery Gerasimov, has declared that Kiev formed a large group of forces in order to suppress the protest sentiments in southeastern Ukraine. He also stated that tens of foreign mercenaries are acting in Ukraine on the side of the current Kiev authorities, a high-ranking representative of the country's General Staff who participates in the 3rd Moscow International Security Conference told reporters on Friday.

Employees of privately owned military companies are taking part in this operation, he said at the International Security Conference in Moscow on Friday.

"A group of forces equipped with military hardware, artillery systems, multiple rocket launch systems and combat aircraft was set up to suppress the protests," Gerasimov said.

"There are also facts confirming the involvement of privately owned military companies in the Ukrainian events," he said.
Read more: http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_05_23/Pro-Kiev-forces-with-heavy-weapons-foreign-mercenaries-operating-in-southeast-Ukraine-Russian-General-Staff-2699/


Posted by: William Bowles | May 23 2014 11:23 utc | 113

Another take on the situation, this from RT today (23)

Reports of a possible shooting between different pro-Kiev troops came from the Donetsk Region on Thursday too, where at least 16 Ukrainian troops were killed and over 30 injured in a night attack on a checkpoint. While some accounts said the battle near the town of Volnovakha was a night raid of the militias, there are numerous accounts indicating that it could actually be a case of friendly fire, in which a unit of pro-Kiev militia hired by oligarch Igor Kolomoisky mistakenly attacked a facility manned by the Ukrainian military.

But who knows?

Posted by: William Bowles | May 23 2014 11:31 utc | 114

Most of the Ukrainian soldiers obviously do not want to fight and kill their own people.

The US, NATO and the rump regime in Kiev have to rely on the hard-line neo-NAzi "Right Sector" and allied forces.

Arnold Lockshin, political exile from the US living in Moscow

Posted by: Arnold Lockshin | May 23 2014 11:51 utc | 115

Simon Ostrowsky finds that all Ukrainian soldiers fighting in Slaviansk were recruited from Kiev Maidan

Posted by: somebody | May 23 2014 13:07 utc | 116

CyberBerkut announces destruction of electronic system of Ukraine's Central Election Commission', - ITAR-TASS, http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_05_23/CyberBerkut-announces-destruction-of-electronic-system-of-Ukraines-Central-Election-Commission-5809/

Hmmm....

Posted by: William Bowles | May 23 2014 13:17 utc | 117

BTW, I'm still publishing daily Ukraine News Links, here's today's: http://wp.me/p107R3-jHu

B

Posted by: William Bowles | May 23 2014 13:20 utc | 118

In French - Le Monde - Kolomoisky cutting himself a fiefdom from Dnipropetrovsk to Odessa.

Posted by: somebody | May 23 2014 13:56 utc | 119

Donetsk bloodbath: Insider video shows Ukraine helicopters firing at own checkpoint

http://rt.com/news/161044-ukraine-helicopter-checkpoint-attack/

It's worth reprinting here I think:

The eight-minute video on YouTube was shot near the town of Volnovakha in Ukraine’s Donetsk Region, according to the description. It shows a group of armed uniformed men with Ukrainian army insignia and at least two others in civilian clothes taking cover behind a military truck.

The vehicle is at a field and the men are observing from a distance a woodland belt separating on the field border At least two vans are seen and fire burns among the trees. Sporadic gunfire can be heard, possibly from ammunition detonating in the fire, and then a massive explosion erupts at the camp. The soldiers discuss whether they should fall back.

Then two Mil Mi-24 helicopter gunships start barraging at low altitude over the area. After several passes the aircraft start barraging the burning camp from their cannons.

“What are their doing?” one of the soldiers exclaims in surprise. “Are they ours?” “Who the f*** else?” another replies.

The group hastily flees the scene, but the cameraman continues shooting the footage, cursing and praying as he runs.

A couple of minutes later he gets to another woodland belt. He approaches another Ukrainian military man, who is speaking on a mobile phone.

“Who are they shooting at?” the man says. “There are civilians and our soldiers there. Do you have a line to the army aviation, what the f*** is happening?”

“Two [Mi-]24s and one [Mi-]8 arrived. They are flying over our checkpoint and shooting at our checkpoint,” the report continues. “There are lots of corpses there. We were dousing the burning BMP [infantry combat vehicle], we thought the Mi-8 was going to pick up the bodies. Now they are shooting.”

Ukrainian troops use their helicopters in the fight against the local armed militias opposing Kiev’s rule to destroy hardware damaged in the clashes to prevent it from falling into the hands of the militias. Miscommunication among the troops could have led to the aviation command believing that the checkpoint was taken over by the militias.

The video was uploaded on YouTube on Tuesday, which puts the timing of the video hours after a night attack on the military checkpoint near Volnovakha. The attack may not have been a militia raid, but rather a case of friendly fire, in which one pro-Kiev unit mistakenly attacked another unit.

The battle left at least 16 Ukrainian troops killed and 30 others injured.

But what of 'Bes'? Or was he just cashing in on it?

And what kind of fuckup causes three army helis to attack their own troops? I'm not convinced.

Posted by: William Bowles | May 23 2014 13:57 utc | 120

This para from the RT story confuses me:

The video was uploaded on YouTube on Tuesday, which puts the timing of the video hours after a night attack on the military checkpoint near Volnovakha. The attack may not have been a militia raid, but rather a case of friendly fire, in which one pro-Kiev unit mistakenly attacked another unit.

So is that the attack on soldiers who refused to target a villege? I think there are two intertwined events here. Could the attack on the army checkpoint be related to the attack on the other checkpoint the previous night?

Posted by: William Bowles | May 23 2014 14:02 utc | 121

I;m not at all convinced. This report, though written later, is even worse than their previous one. It appears to be covering up essential dimensions of what was happening, while relying upon translated conversation from the video to create what I believe is a false construction of what was happened. But no matter: eventually we shall know .

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 23 2014 14:06 utc | 122

Ok, we've got these regular soldiers in a field, hiding behind an army truck. A 100 metres or so, away are the remains of what looks commercial vehicles.

Then three army (I assume) helis come in at low level and repeatedly strafe the remains of the vehicles.

Then there's a big explosion (ammunition?).

The very first RT story touched on ALL of these alleged events; the 'friendly fire', the ammunition dump, the soldiers refusing orders, and so on.

So, the other video which shows the army checkpoint with the armoured vehicles and so forth, all camped out under the trees; is this group that were later attacked? In other words, the video was shot from the other side of the trees, where the helis attacked?

I'm really confused. No wonder the later RT story makes no sense.

Posted by: William Bowles | May 23 2014 14:23 utc | 123

Posted by: William Bowles | May 23, 2014 10:02:36 AM | 120

Russian time zones range from UTC+3 to UTC+12. Youtube time zone is California, ie. UTC-7, Ukraine time zone is UTC+3/+4 Kerch/Krim

So whatever.

It is possible/likely that the "Kyiv government" has lost/never had control of the active armed groups, but that they are Kolomoisky's (allied with Timoshenko) private army as he is the financer.
So that elections will not change anything on the ground.

That would explain why the MSM dislikes him now and he is relegated from hamster to rat.

The Horlovka lot will have obtained those weapons from the checkpoint. If by fighting is another issue.

Posted by: somebody | May 23 2014 14:33 utc | 124

"Ukrainian troops use their helicopters in the fight against the local armed militias opposing Kiev’s rule to destroy hardware damaged in the clashes to prevent it from falling into the hands of the militias." OK, that seems plausible if what they mean is for instance BMPs immobilised in the field. That can happen for any number of reasons, and it's certainly plausible that an immobilised machine can be fixed by rebel mechanics. And, though RT in their coy way don't mention it, the vehicles may be abandoned when crews desert to the rebel side, which happens remarkably often.

But the visible vehicles were not in that category at all. They are two immobilised PrivatBank armoured vans, without guns, for the NatGuards/Right Sector squads to ride around in. As far as I can understand, these NatGuards/Right Sector squads pinned down and almost destroyed the troops, using nothing but machine guns and rifles.

We hear and see a terrific boom and visible mushroom of flame some 40 feet tall. That must have been an immobilised and abandoned BMP belonging to the troops, seems the only answer. The helicopters must have been there to destroy that, before it fell into rebel hands. So that gives the helicopters a valid and plausible reason for being there. This is not the same thing as "destroying evidence of a black op" (ie the PrivatBank vans). They weren't doing that at all.

The final muster of the surviving troops on the road, at the end of the videos, is interesting. They seem to have two white vans of their own, rather like the PrivatBank vehicles, but I never get a clear view of them. The surviving troops don't look very shot up, but in the initial attack they suffered, they must have lost at least one armored vehicle. I don't know why, if they were only attacked with machine guns. And they lost a substantial number of men, which could certainly have happened with an ambush using several machine guns. How then, did the troops come to abandon an armored vehicle, thus requiring the helicopters to come in and destroy it? How can mere machine guns immobilise a BMP or whatever it was? That's the question I still can't answer, following this construction of events.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 23 2014 14:51 utc | 125

It does not sound plausible to me that a group of rag tag insurgents only recently formed and without much fighting experience attacks a platoon plus size military unit and destroys it completely.

This..........is a misestimation of what's happening on the ground.

The understanding in the area is that this was a classic ambush operation, similar to what the Russians faced in Afghanistan or Chechnya. A column of BTR APCs (3-4) is on a road in a region with plenty of cover (woods, bushes), potential obstacles (trees, river crossings) and no meaningful flank security. Several groups armed with RPGs and LMGs fire a 30-second salvo, then melt into the woods. Variations of this type of hit-and-run attack have been taking place for at least three weeks now (the first time, in early May, resulted in two KIA and up to a half-dozen WIA for the Ukrainians and one dead for the separatists, for example). The "thirteen dead" makes perfect sense if they were all in or gathered around the BTRs when the first RPG salvo hit - or if a lucky shot generated some secondary explosions (e.g. ammo dump). Those details I don't know, since I wasn't there.

So. Do the separatists have the people to organize these ambushes - both with military experience and familiar with local terrain? Of course they do. Ukrainians fought in Afghanistan and Chechnya too, by the tens of thousands (and recall that even not-highly-trained partisans, from French-era Vietnam onwards, have generally had success with similar tactics - provided they don't stick around for a prolonged firefight). Do they have the first-strike weapons necessary for this type of an ambush to work? Apparently, yes. I was surprised at the quantity, but they clearly got their hands on a stockpile of military hardware, possibly from the 25th Air Assault Brigade or some other military units. Is the Ukrainian army today in tip-top shape staffed with highly effective professionals? Far from it, by all accounts (starting with the acting defense minister himself).

Now - will these ambushes, if they continue at the rate of one or two per week, do much more than annoy the Ukrainians? Doubtful. And if the separatists are drawn into a sustained firefight with army formations, e.g. when the latter are "clearing" a town - they will quickly exhaust both weapons and men. They are only irregular units, after all. [You will notice that Chechen hit-and-run squads were very effective at killing off individual tanks or isolated infantry squads, but couldn't really hold any position against a coordinated assault - or take one, as a closer study of the Maikop Brigade experience suggests.] But in the interim, yes, there is an actual shooting war out there with dozens already dead.

Separately, on at least two occasions now the separatists have alleged that the Ukrainian army units deliberately attacked one another when one unit refused to engage with the separatists. A sort of a "you're either with us or against us" type mindset. [I.e. Unit A refuses to open fire on the separatists and is then fired upon by Unit B or one of the Right Sector militia units operating in the area.] One of those attacks did allegedly involve an ammo dump and dozens of casualties as a result, but Ukrainian "oligarch" press has been pretty silent on these matters so we'll have to wait for any kind of reliable confirmation. Still, an interesting angle to investigate.

Posted by: Angry Panda | May 23 2014 14:58 utc | 126

German radio says there is a fight amongst pro Ukraine militias for leadership as well as on the separatist side ...

Posted by: somebody | May 23 2014 16:04 utc | 127

Some pixs and videos.

B. Henri-Levy with Poroshenko.

Sittin’ in a airplane and discussin’, chummy, but a little tense all the same :) ?

http://tinyurl.com/q7uw5zc

Here a failed arrest/kidnapping of Denis Levin, of Borotba (“Struggle”), left, unionist, Kharkiv, 20 May 2014:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSxb0NAjSbE

Cries from the crowd that intervenes with success !! :

What is going on? POLICE, police, help - Don’t touch him! Leave him! After the shot in the air, .. You have to help! Shame, shame. Fascists! Animals! And the police supports them! (etc.) Don’t understand the language really, so pardon for rough interpretation .. but it is so predicable...others might translate properly.

Another vid of the same incident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6HI4wUn_-g

one brief article re. background not too stellar

Neo Nazis Attack Union Members and Ukrainian Activists in Kyiv

http://tinyurl.com/qavkdjb


Posted by: Noirette | May 23 2014 18:08 utc | 128

What emerges is a Ukrainian Army of conscripts who can't be relied upon to shoot their own citizens.

In turn, because the junta is a government in name only, it has to rely on nazis and mercenaries to do its 'enforcing' for it.

Thus the slaughter of the Ukrainian soldiers yesterday was punishment for their refusal to shoot unarmed civilians. And it's clear now, from all the reports, that a contingent of so-called national guardsmen carried out the slaughter, protected as I said much earlier by helicopter gunships that must have also taken out the armoured vehicles before the guardsmen advanced.

Now why these helicopters (shown in the video) were destroying vehicles and weapons later is not clear but either they were destroying evidence or, and more likely, they were putting them out of action.

Posted by: William Bowles | May 23 2014 18:09 utc | 129

poroshenko seems to win/most popular for the election.
I guess we could await even more bloodshed after the election due his anti-russian views.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 23 2014 18:45 utc | 130

to quote the 'professional soldier' from the Saker's site:

This incident alone will have very serious repercussions for the Kiev government, although the international community is dead silent about the killings. It shows that if you do not do what the Kiev government tells you to do you will be killed. Every unit in the entire Ukraine Army knew of this incident within an hour of it's happening. This will adversely affect the morale and combat effectiveness of the Ukraine Army from top to bottom. It is very possible that some Ukraine units may either attack 'national guard' units or simply change sides. That remains to be seen, but it is a fact that soldiers can not be made to attack with weapons pointed at their backs from the rear. They will be just as likely to turn on the enforcers as they are to attack the perceived 'enemy'. There are already, as of 08:15 local time on 23 May, unconfirmed but reliable reports of two Ukraine Army units going over to the Federalist side.

Posted by: William Bowles | May 23 2014 18:59 utc | 131

aha, ok, the attackers had RPGs.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 23 2014 19:07 utc | 132

@Anonymous #130:

Poroshenko is not known for having anti-Russian views.

He did say that the "counter-terrorist" operation in the east should continue, but that could have been just posturing.

Posted by: Demian | May 23 2014 19:27 utc | 133

@Anonymous #130:

Poroshenko is not known for having anti-Russian views.

He did say that the "counter-terrorist" operation in the east should continue, but that could have been just posturing.

Posted by: Demian | May 23 2014 19:29 utc | 134

@Anonymous #130:

Poroshenko is not known for having anti-Russian views.

He did say that the "counter-terrorist" operation in the east should continue, but that could have been just posturing.

Posted by: Demian | May 23 2014 19:31 utc | 135

US Pressures NGOs Not to Help Detained Russian Journalists in Ukraine – Source

So the Americans have figured out a way to fight Russian "disinformation": have the Yukis kidnap Russian journalists and then hold them indefinitely and incommunicado. (The two journalists being held now are the ones who shot videos of Uki helicopters showing UN markings.)

Posted by: Demian | May 23 2014 19:42 utc | 136

Rowan, unless the army turns against the junta, the federalists don't stand much of chance. According to the same soldier, as the Russians didn't nothing when they shelled Slaviansk, it gave the junta the green light to launch an attack. He/she reckons today or tomorrow before the election.

The Russians are caught between a rock and a hard place, if they intervene in order to stop the slaughter, they'll be condemned, if they don't, the junta wins.

Posted by: William Bowles | May 23 2014 19:45 utc | 137

Demian

Wrong. Poroshenko is as anti-russian as anyone else in kiev, this is the man west back.

Poroshenko want to sue Russia in international court.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/poroshenko-plans-to-sue-russia-in-international-courts-347663.html

Posted by: Anonymous | May 23 2014 19:57 utc | 138

Demian

Wrong. Poroshenko is as anti-russian as anyone else in kiev, this is the man west back.

Poroshenko want to sue Russia in international court.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/poroshenko-plans-to-sue-russia-in-international-courts-347663.html

Posted by: Anonymous | May 23 2014 19:59 utc | 139

Seems b's take on the event is plausible..Apparently some troops sent to the area have defected to join the pro-federation movement.. The army then sent in their choppers to smoke them...
sad..

Posted by: Zico | May 23 2014 20:00 utc | 140

Seems b's take on the event is plausible..Apparently some troops sent to the area have defected to join the pro-federation movement.. The army then sent in their choppers to smoke them...
sad..

Posted by: Zico | May 23 2014 20:01 utc | 141

You may find it plausible, zico, but it contains a number of assumptions, none of which I like or accept, and it looks to me exactly like the sort of rather mechanical propaganda that LifeNews, unfortunately, specialise in, and I'm sorry to have to make that remark, because of the two disappeared journalists, who had sinned by reporting something quite genuine (the UN choppers). The most important and disagreeable assumption is that the army's helicopter pilots and support staff would obey such an order. I don't think you can put a Right Sector goon at the controls of a military helicopter and teach him to fly as well as those shown in the video, fast and at very low altitude. What you claim isn't what the choppers do in the video, as you can see and as I have said repeatedly, they could have destroyed the very troops where the film was shot from, in the open field, with one incendiary bomb, boom, sizzle, OK? But they didn't, OK? What they were doing is what they normally do, which is non controversial, and has been accepted across the board elsewhere, including in the less conspiratorial, propagandist and paranoid versions of this story too. They go out to destroy abandoned or crippled BMPs or other armoured vehicles, to stop them falling into the hands of rebels, and that's what they did. You are clinging to a conspiracy theory, and I'm not, which is a fun reversal for me.

:-)

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 23 2014 20:26 utc | 142

There are some other major events that will take place 24/25 May, the arrival of the Papal to visit Israel, a close door session with the Zionist state, some accords regarding real estate and financial status of Jerusalem, Pope meeting the Spiritual leader of the Christian Orthodox. Coupled with a large scale USA/Jordan/Israel Exercise taking place, in excess of 13,000 USA troops, heavy naval and air divisions. Something big will happen.

Posted by: papa | May 23 2014 20:49 utc | 143

There are some other major events that will take place 24/25 May, the arrival of the Papal to visit Israel, a close door session with the Zionist state, some accords regarding real estate and financial status of Jerusalem, Pope meeting the Spiritual leader of the Christian Orthodox. Coupled with a large scale USA/Jordan/Israel Exercise taking place, in excess of 13,000 USA troops, heavy naval and air divisions. Something big will happen.

Posted by: papa | May 23 2014 20:50 utc | 144

rt.com’s version of the dead soldiers, see highlight, followed by another later effort, badly wrong
http://niqnaq.wordpress.com/2014/05/23/rt-coms-version-of-the-dead-soldiers-see-highlight-followed-by-another-later-effort-badly-wrong/

Mastermind of Odessa Massacre Embarrasses Ukraine’s Jews
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/05/mastermind-odessa-massacre-embarrasses-ukraines-jews.html

Posted by: Moscovite | May 23 2014 22:15 utc | 145

Been reading through Russian language material, mostly the comments from Colonel Cassad's piece - Безблагодатность and sites they linked, and found a few more details I had not seen before. Which may or may not true. I'll list those I remember, for whatever they are worth.

1. Strelkov and the "Bes guy" are possible rivals.

2. The "Bes guy" works for Akhmentov. He is thought to have used anti-junta people in Mariupol to stage a provocation.

3. The Ukrainian soldier who filmed the helicopter attack (the 8 min. video of the guys hiding behind a truck) did not survive and his video camera/phone was found with him and uploaded by somebody else. That raises the question of who killed him, since the helicopter attack was supposedly after the ground fighting and the original attackers had left the scene.

4. A Ukrainian soldier from the checkpoint claims to have seen a helicopter land and drop troops off. This near the beginning of the attack, I think he said it was still dark.

5. Speculation that both anti-junta and pro-junta forces attacked the checkpoint, but at different times.

6. There were civilians at the checkpoint when the initial attack began. You can see a couple people in civilian clothes hiding behind the truck in the helicopter attack video.

7. Witnesses claim Ukrainian soldiers were executed, but that Strelkov denied anti-junta forces did that.

Posted by: scalawag | May 23 2014 22:28 utc | 146

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 23, 2014 3:40:34 AM | 105

"but sometimes even yandex is not enough. You have to tell us what the above #103 means, do some paraphrasing. And please, I know I don't have to tell you - as soon as Strelkov says whether the message purportedly from him, backing the Bes The Demon claim, is confirmed or denied."

Sorry about the garbled translation, but I thought it best to leave it as is, since about half of it I didn't understand, and figured it would be best to not blindly guess and make worse. :)

That report from Strelkov was made after the "Strelkov" reports claiming the anti-junta forces did the Grace roadblock attack. He doesn't deny he wrote the earlier reports (doesn't mention the attack at all). As far as I've seen Strelkov has not denied he made the "Strelkov" reports about that attack, though he has had the time to do so if the reports were the result of a hack. So my guess is those questioned reports are by him. That leaves the questions of his role in the attack and why they decided on the attack on that particular checkpoint.

Remembered a couple other things I read that I didn't mention in the previous comment.

8. The agreement between the Ukrainian soldiers and the townspeople the roadblock was outside was that the soldiers agreed to stay outside of the town and people from the town would bring them food and drink.

9. There were regular Ukrainian soldiers and National Guard troops stationed at that roadblock.

Posted by: scalawag | May 23 2014 22:53 utc | 147

@scalawag #147:

Did you watch this Russian news report? It gives a coherent account, and doesn't mention Strelkov at all. It also doesn't say that the attackers had helicopter support. According to it, the survivors asked over the radio for medics, but instead, helicopters showed up an hour later.

That report interviews both survivors and local villagers.

Posted by: Demian | May 23 2014 23:33 utc | 148

Posted by: Demian | May 23, 2014 7:33:30 PM | 148

I've seen the info in the text part of that article before, but the video report is much longer and probably has much more detail. Be nice to see a transcript.

Posted by: scalawag | May 24 2014 0:07 utc | 149

@scalawag #149

Colonel Cassad is a fantastic resource. It's like a Russian Saker, but with much more information.

Posted by: Demian | May 24 2014 0:25 utc | 150

Here is an episode PressTV's Face to Face with a Ukraine focus.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/05/09/361933/ukraine-crisis-part-of-us-strategy/

Noirette always has some spectacular finds, the attack on the Borotba speaker is the pure essence of the situation in the Ukraine, right down to the brave police officer doing his duty in the face of the masked thuggery of the certainly CIA-backed paramilitaries.

Certainly that brave policeman, just doing his job, are what many of those Ukrainian soldiers are out in the field. How long they will put up with being browbeaten by the nazis I have no idea, but I do hope that they find an effective leader amongst them who can turn the tables on the Right Sektor and Poroshenko.

By the way, it doesn't appear that BHL will refuse a photo with any sort of controversial character, but then again one doubts he would refuse a photo of any sort. Such phony "intellectuals", who yearn for acceptance in the circles of the powerful like a dog yearns for scraps from his master's table (whining and eagerly doing whatever tricks are asked at the chance), would be a better focus for JSorrentine's attacks than good people like Michael Hudson, IMHO.

Posted by: guest77 | May 24 2014 0:32 utc | 151

Noel Godin and his entarteurs had the measure of BHL decades ago... A dangerous buffoon.

Posted by: Cortes | May 24 2014 0:37 utc | 152

I don't know if someone posted this yet:

San Francisco Labor Council Resolution on Ukraine and Russia

Therefore be it Resolved the San Francisco Labor Council urges the U.S. government to use diplomacy with Russia and Ukraine to work out a peaceful resolution of the brewing conflict, one that respects the sovereignty, democratic right to self-determination, and security of all the peoples of Eastern Europe, and Be it Further Resolved that the San Francisco Labor Council urge the U.S. government to stop all military aid to the new Ukraine government, and...

Source: borotba

Posted by: guest77 | May 24 2014 1:43 utc | 153

We know that the armed forces in Eastern Ukraine are the conscript national army, right sector goons and the Separatists. There are also Russian and CIA Assets and hired Special Forces type mercenaries. None of the foreign mercenaries have been captured so their use must be limited to training and Oligarch protection. In life the simplest explanation is usually correct.

Western media has briefly mentioned the Ukraine Army ambush and said separatists did it. The BBC even has pictures of the self-identified attackers afterwards. The video linked @57 has an interview of the Ukraine Army Officer present at the late night attack who said the attackers were professionals. At the separatists base the same BBC video shows the captured weapons and briefly a wheeled personnel carrier with a mounted Russian Flag and what look like painted abbreviated symbols of the Russian Orthodox Cross. If this is the weapon cache from the checkpoint, they had time to police up the ambush site and withdraw with their loot back to the base camp. I bet they were long gone by the time the three helicopters arrived at the checkpoint.

In all wars soldiers become radicalized. To fight well there must be a justification for their sacrifice. The weak and fools are killed off. If their villages are being shelled the men will want revenge and accept the risks of combat. This doesn’t mean it wasn’t a false flag operation but the Separatists have the religious hatred and motivation to attack the Ukraine Westerners. With veterans and lots of training the militia could have carried out the attack even though it is contrary to the Russian Federation’s intention not to getting involved and will prod the conscript Army to start killing Russian speaking civilians. Also, I doubt mercenaries would risk their own lives to attack a fixed army position and then withdraw. But, if mercenaries are actually responsible, their paymaster must have given them a hell of a lot of money. Also, the intent of their bosses must be the continued escalation of the Ukraine civil war. After this incident, Ukrainian soldiers will sleep in foxholes and will be trigger happy.

I am sure the video of the checkpoint ambush site with the helicopter attack was hours later after the sun was up for a while. These are untrained conscript troops. The helicopters were softening up the ambush site before the Ukraine Army relief troops retook it. Since BBC has pictures of officers walking about looking at the wreckage, I doubt bushwhackers remained back at the ambush site. I also doubt that Right Sector goons are killing soldiers who are saying no to killing fellow Ukrainians. This and saying that the soldier videotaping the action was killed feel like propaganda to generate sympathy and hatred of the others.

Posted by: VietnamVet | May 24 2014 2:00 utc | 154

One good thing, perhaps, about this situation in the Ukraine is that the American people have been watching it closely from the beginning, and if it develops into a full scale ethnic war, there will be no doubt what the US role was (and it was integral). What's more, Americans are very familiar with Putin and other personalities (such as Lavrov) them having been the focus of news from so long in Libya, Syria, Iran, and other efforts.

There will be no sense of "exotic" foreign butchers and and foggy ideas of "the Balkans" (where the idea of what was happening was so vague to observers that the region lent its name to the phenomenon of ethnic violence there - "balkanization").

My point is that, perhaps and for once, American's vast, know-nothing ignorance of the world will not be an asset to the power elite. Their extended propaganda campaign may backfire because the American people (more of them than normal, anyway) will be aware that what is happening is directly related to our intervention and not due to the exotic whims of a far away, alien peoples they have never heard of.

High hopes....

Posted by: guest77 | May 24 2014 2:34 utc | 155

So, Bes the Demon is real. And he is a bona fide rebel, not a false flag operator. But, at the same time, he is taking money from Kolomoisky, the CIA, or someone else in Kiev who also wants total war, just as he himself does. He is a bona fide rebel but an ultra, who regards Strelkov as a worthless moderate. The phenomenon of ultra-leftists or ultra-rightists acting as 'objective fifth-columnists' so to speak, is fairly well-known but hard to explain. 'Objectively', they function as fifth columnists, provocateurs and false flag operators (all meaning the same thing in this case), here taking money from Kiev, but they don't think of themselves as traitors. What they think of themselves as, is radical revolutionaries so disgusted by the tepid moderacy of the so-called revolutionaries around them, that taking money from Kiev or from CIA to stage a spectacular and barbarically extreme attack on Kiev's own troops, is a clever way to force the tepid revolutionaries to fight an extreme war. And this attitude, which I can immediately compare to that of ultra-leftists and anarchists who stage barbaric attacks with enemy money to force their own comrades to wage a more extreme revolution - this attitude is so incredibly stupid that such people really need to be exterminated by the genuine revolutionaries ASA goddam P.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 24 2014 2:44 utc | 156

@VietnamVet #154:

The report I link to in #48 is by Channel 1, Russia's premier public TV channel. I seriously don't think it engages in propaganda to such an extent that it just makes stuff up, as the Ukrainian media do, particularly since the coup. (I read somewhere that the Ukrainian media were good for the Maidan protests themselves, but I didn't follow the situation in the Ukraine much at all until the coup.)

This report quotes survivors saying the killers were mercenaries and villagers saying that they were from Right Sector. It doesn't say anything about the guy who shot the helicopter video getting killed. (I don't know where scalawag got that from; he followed more links than I did.) I agree that the helicopter video was taken at least an hour later, and the Chanel 1 story is consistent with that. L!FENEWS and RT reported that the killers had helicopter support; Channel 1 did not. RT was just quoting L!FENEWS on that. I don't think LIFENEWS is a propaganda channel, but it's not very serious either; it's the Russian equivalent of CNN or MSNBC, as far as I can tell. I don't think there is any US equivalent for Channel 1; it is like Deutsche Welle or like the BBC was when that news organization could be taken seriously.

I don't find that BBC report about federalists showing off the weapons they captured very convincing. As far as I can tell, only the BBC was invited. (That story did make it to a Russian BBC video report.)

The Ukrainian soldiers were attacked and then, according to some reports, executed at close range; from what I can tell, federalists take prisoners if they can. (That is easier for them to do, since they tend to fight near their homes.)

I quoted from this Guardian story in the previous thread:

A man who said he was part of the pro-Kiev forces but did not want to give his name told journalists at the hospital that the people who attacked the checkpoint were "professionals" and that the helicopters had been sent to support them. He had arrived on the scene as backup shortly after the attack.

"I don't know who sent them or what they were doing, I am scared to think of it," he said. He added that the Ukrainians involved were a regiment made up mainly of reservists. In heated exchanges with locals at the hospital, he apologised for the Ukrainian military operation in the east of the country, and said he no longer knew what to believe.

Sorry, the only way I can read that is that the soldier thought his own side killed his comrades, and the Guardian just wasn't willing to spell that out.

Finally, this story seems to have completely disappeared from the Western press (English and German being the ones I follow), while in the Russian press, the account of what happened has stabilized to what's in the Channel 1 report.

If it was really the "separatists" who were behind this brutal killing, don't you think this story would be getting much more Western coverage? The Russian government is saying that the Ukraine is basically in a state of civil war, but there seems to be a news blackout about that in the West.

Posted by: Demian | May 24 2014 2:49 utc | 157

@Rowan Berkeley #156:

If you have any evidence for any of that, I'd like to see it. (I'm not saying you're wrong.) I didn't run across anything about Bes on any of the Russian language sites I looked at.

Posted by: Demian | May 24 2014 2:55 utc | 158

"...By the way, it doesn't appear that BHL will refuse a photo with any sort of controversial character, but then again one doubts he would refuse a photo of any sort. Such phony "intellectuals", who yearn for acceptance in the circles of the powerful like a dog yearns for scraps from his master's table (whining and eagerly doing whatever tricks are asked at the chance), would be a better focus for JSorrentine's attacks than good people like Michael Hudson, IMHO."
Guest 77 @151

I entirely agree. Hudson adds really useful ideas and information to these discussions of the nexus between politics and finance at an international level. His work on debt peonage and public financing is critical to a proper understanding of what the current political economic crisis is all about.

To differ with Hudson is perfectly reasonable but what Sorrentine did, and does, is to attempt to exclude Hudson from the debate.

J specialises in soft targets: all the people he lights into are also being attacked by the bourgeoisie: Greenwald, Snowden, Chomsky even Russell Brand are all being howled at from the right and suddenly Sorrentine piles on a rant from the "left". Similarly Hudson and Paul Roberts are anathema to the court economists. Usually J claims that the accused is actually an agent of the ruling class.

This is extremely destructive of rational debate, the one area in which critical thinkers can always beat the bourgeoisie openly; by replacing reasonable discussion and empirically verifiable evidence with wild conspiracy theories in which secret elites manipulate at will and nothing can be done to challenge the ruling ideology, Sorrentine and his ilk, almost certainly unconsciously, undermine the development of the political consciousness on which self emancipation depends.

Posted by: bevin | May 24 2014 3:02 utc | 159

Posted by: VietnamVet | May 23, 2014 10:00:14 PM | 154

"The weak and fools are killed off."

Not usually in the west. These usually are given commands and become the gassy turds that rise the top of the sewage pond. Though in the Vietnam war, a refreshingly large number of these psychopaths were fortunately fragged by their own men, who had had enough of their war criminal BS and self-promoting incompetence.

"but the Separatists have the religious hatred and motivation to attack the Ukraine Westerners."

Perhaps you think anti-fascism is religious prejudice, but normal people do not. The people of Ukraine and Russia have good reason to despise the bandera nazis, the nazi sods your country actively supported after WW2, and helped bring about prior to it. It is this western supported nazi element, your banderas, who have hyped the religious differences, just like your American buddies in Israel have consistently worked to divide Muslims over Sunni-Shia religious differences. The people in the east of the country, the ones you blame, have much less strong religious prejudices.

"Also, I doubt mercenaries would risk their own lives to attack a fixed army position and then withdraw."

The "fixed army position" was like a border post between the USA and Canada. Hardly a serious military strongpoint. Ideal merc target. Some vet...

"I am sure the video of the checkpoint ambush site with the helicopter attack was hours later after the sun was up for a while. These are untrained conscript troops. The helicopters were softening up the ambush site before the Ukraine Army relief troops retook it."

I'm sure you are as sure as you are full of cow manure. Maybe you can illuminate us on the orders those gunships were operating under? Surely you must have been briefed on them? ;)

"bushwhackers"

A computer game expert...

"I also doubt that Right Sector goons are killing soldiers who are saying no to killing fellow Ukrainians."

Now we reach the gist of this establishment spammer's hasbara. Those nice nazis, the Americans/Israelis/EU, would never have their puppets/mercs kill off recalcitrant Ukranian conscripts who still have enough humanity in their souls that they balk at murdering fellow human beings who mean them no harm.

Yeah, like this was just a commie hallucincation, isn't that right Langley-Tel Aviv boy?

Kiev troops reportedly shoot at deserting conscripts as eastern military op escalates

Ukraine’s Right Sector militants reportedly shoot 30 soldiers for laying down arms

Your nick, bragging about being part of a war criminal assault upon another country, says what you represent as much as your shilling for western aggression.

Posted by: scalawag | May 24 2014 3:19 utc | 160

If I belong to Sorrentine's "ilk", then I must be a very peculiar example of that "ilk", bevin, because even while being part of it, I am saying that ultras actually in the physical fighting field, like Bes the Demon as I now understand him, need to be "exterminated". You see the parallel, surely. Another good example would be the Red Brigades people who kidnapped and after protracted and very spectacular, failed negotiations, murdered Aldo Moro. Some think of them to this day as simply false flag artists, as a perverted fraction of NATO's undercover right-wing network; others, presumably, still think of them as genuine leftists. But they make much better sense as an example of the kind of ultra-leftists I described above. And Bes the Demon is a right-wing mirror image of that. All the rebels against Kiev are ideologically on the right, whether we like that fact or not. Strelkov, for instance, is ideologically on the right, he is religious and so forth. Putin's part of the Russian governmental elite is ideologically on the right, they are religious, anti-communist, pro-capitalist and pro traditional values. But they (Putin & Co) are on the moderate right, and they are certainly well to the left of the western leaders, who are outright raving global Nazis (or arguably Judeonazis) of a ruthlessness and megalomania which make even Hitler look moderate, actually. And this is also something few would wish to spell out. Global Judeonazism is a very uncomfortable phenomenon for anybody to have to conceptualise, especialy when it appears to be on the brink of success, ie utter global tyranny. So, bevin, what do you think I am, when I join Sorrentine in attacking Hudson as a mere bourgeois radical? Am I one of these ideological ultras who damages his own side, like you say Sorrentine does? Or am I something even worse?

:-)

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 24 2014 3:24 utc | 161

Posted by: bevin | May 23, 2014 11:02:22 PM | 159

Your personal grudges are about as interesting as watching a typical day time American television serial.

Posted by: scalawag | May 24 2014 3:37 utc | 162

@162 Sadly its still more interesting than what Sorrentine says most of the time, but not by much.

Posted by: Massinissa | May 24 2014 4:17 utc | 163

Taruta (Donezk governor/oligarch) seems to have come out against Kolomolsky (Dniepropetrowsk governor/oligarch) saying his Donbass batallion destabilizes the region, plus a deal with federalists/secessionists could be struck.

Posted by: somebody | May 24 2014 4:23 utc | 164

Posted by: somebody | May 24, 2014 12:23:15 AM | 164

"plus a deal with federalists/secessionists could be struck."

That would be worth what? Since when have deals by Americans, Israelis or their EU toys been worth anything? The sods rarely even go a day before breaking such deals and then accusing the victims of being exactly what they themselves are.

Posted by: scalawag | May 24 2014 4:45 utc | 165

scalawag - a watered down version of jsore.. same attacking of others, while thinking they are carrying on the good fight for truth.. unable to see the relativity of there own position but instead, so deeply attached to it, they feel confident to give off this superior sense of self(righteousness) while implying they know the intent and motives of others..

Posted by: james | May 24 2014 4:47 utc | 166

Scalawag does a great job of collecting and auto-translating russian sources though, and that's hard work, often unappreciated. It's the most important thing that keeps us glued to the actual situation, as opposed to wandering through our own various opinions about each other and the world in general. This by the way is what makes it worth slogging through all the comments on Saker's blog. There are two or three people there who do the same thing: they read innumerable russian or ukrainian sources and auto-translate them. Bot Tak is one, and Crazy Ivan is another (and by the way, Crazy Ivan is a lot like Sorrentine, temperamentally).

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 24 2014 4:53 utc | 167

Posted by: james | May 24, 2014 12:47:54 AM | 166

"scalawag - a watered down version of jsore.."

Hi, my shillish thweetheart. ;) You are rather predictable, though I'm curious. Which upset your ass the most? When I criticized bevin or vietnam vet?

Posted by: scalawag | May 24 2014 4:59 utc | 168

@Rowan Berkeley #167:

they read innumerable russian or ukrainian sources and auto-translate them.

Is there any point in reading Ukrainian sources at this stage? For me, Ukrainian is nothing more than a particular kind of fascist language at this point. Anything about what is now transpiring in the Ukraine written in Ukrainian is bound to be nothing but lies, as far as I can tell.

If you mean "Ukrainian sources" written in Russian, that may be a different matter. Remember, even Ukrainian nationalist leaders speak Russian among themselves. So the only people who are going to be writing in Ukrainian are the real hard core nut jobs.

By the way, you never responded to my request for links proving that Bes is a real person, as opposed to a psyop construct.

Posted by: Demian | May 24 2014 5:06 utc | 169

Posted by: scalawag | May 24, 2014 12:45:43 AM | 165

Let me translate it for you: Eastern oligarch thinks there is no military solution to secure his fiefdom.

Posted by: somebody | May 24 2014 5:21 utc | 170

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 24, 2014 12:53:25 AM | 167

Appreciated. :)

Posted by: somebody | May 24, 2014 1:21:59 AM | 170

"Let me translate it for you: Eastern oligarch thinks there is no military solution to secure his fiefdom."

The western sods running the creature realize his previous BS lines failed and make adjustments. So what? When these western fascists say a "military solution" wont work, they mean covert war and police state repression is the way to go. Outside of directly facing a noose, the power bug and the quisling bug are incurable diseases with this lot. They will keep spinning their wares under every scam in the book...I mean, you sold me a F.O.R.D. 15 times now, and 15 times I was a ripped off - sure I'll believe you that this time, you have mended your ways.

Posted by: scalawag | May 24 2014 5:38 utc | 171

Posted by: bevin | May 23, 2014 11:02:22 PM | 159

Very well said and thanks for saying it.

Posted by: fairleft | May 24 2014 5:40 utc | 172

Posted by: scalawag | May 24, 2014 1:38:46 AM | 171

Come on, Ukraine is a far way from police state repression, much closer to anarchy and a weapons free for all.

That "friendly fire" incident happened on the road between Donetsk (once Ukraine) and Rostov (Russia) so it is safe to assume someone wanted to keep supply lines open. It would be interesting to know if there is still a "government" border checkpoint in place on that route.

Ukraine militias just happen to be privately funded - there is no "army" involved, everybody seems to be newly recruited volunteer. So coordination is sheer luck.

And for some strange reason the stronghold of the "Donetsk Republic" that gets shelled continuously just happens to be the center of planned shale gas exploration.

"pro Russia", "pro Europe", "Fascism", "Police State", "independence", "Freedom", "NATO", "Eurasian Union", "Geopolitics" are just layers of cover for what is going on and what the fight is about.

Posted by: somebody | May 24 2014 6:02 utc | 173

Very good analysis of the bonehead coup crew and how Putin outwitted them:

Did a Neoliberal Energy Grab Backfire?
Crimea: an EU-US-Exxon Screwup
by PIERRE M. SPREY and FRANKLIN C. SPINNEY

Putin certainly isn’t the greatest European strategist since Bismarck. But it doesn’t take much to win when opposed by dumb, ultra-greedy opponents guided by the arrogance of ignorance. All Putin needed was seeing one tiny move further ahead.

"Arrogance of ignorance" ... love it.

Posted by: fairleft | May 24 2014 6:06 utc | 174

Posted by: somebody | May 24, 2014 2:02:08 AM | 173

"Come on, Ukraine is a far way from police state repression"

Police state repression, death squad repression, I'm sure the semantic definition made a big difference to Guatemalans and El Salvadorans, or does to Colombians or junta controlled regions of the Ukraine now. Outside of those shilling the fascists.

"Ukraine militias just happen to be privately funded"

"Just happen", pure happenstance, coincidence, accident, roll of the dice, just one of those bad hair days. BTW, establishment, Israel leaning troll, I "just happen" to have an incredible deal you might be interested in on the London Bridge...

At least try and make the hasbara look appealing for your selected "audience", somebody, you're writing spam intended for American exceptional Yahoo or Youtube venues.

:)

Posted by: scalawag | May 24 2014 6:53 utc | 175

175) If you cannot grasp the use of words stop trying.

174) Thanks for that link, it is essential reading. Not the least interesting part is who wrote the analysis - (ex) military people.

There is additional fact, by Russia's annexation of Crimea, Turkey has no longer the power to threaten South Stream pipeline construction via its Black Sea economic zone.

And there is another "arrogance of ignorance" fact - instead of insisting on Russia to withdraw her troops from the Ukrainian border (done for trying to get European taxpayers to open their pockets for NATO, plus Poland/Baltic states to get troops stationed with all that means for their economies), Russia would have to close the border and cut supply lines for that to make any military sense on the ground.

Posted by: somebody | May 24 2014 7:20 utc | 176

Posted by: scalawag | May 24, 2014 2:53:42 AM | 175

Actually, the news economy of youtube is a very interesting factor.

His main source of income remains his YouTube channel, where videos sold through Storyful can fetch thousands of dollars at a time. Since April, he says he has earned about $20,000 through his freelance work — including $2,000 for a clip in Newsweek about his abduction.

Posted by: somebody | May 24 2014 7:29 utc | 177

M K Bhadrakumar - always worth reading:


A chocolate king rolls back new Cold War

Posted by: archie | May 24 2014 8:17 utc | 178

according to wikipedia, russia and iran have the most gas of anybody... but russian and irananian gas are politically incorrect according to our imperial political commissars...

so europeans are expected to do without gas to humor the neocons' ambitions to achieve benevolent global hegemony...

...which they plan to achieve by imposing sanctions or russia and iran, restricting russian and iranian energy exports which will, in theory, result in economic hardship which will result in regime change in russia and iran...

...the new regimes in russia and rian will, in theory, be willing to knuckle under to neocons' benevolent hegemony...

...but after observing necons' actions for the last dozen years or so, russia and iran are reluctant to submit to neocon benevolence...

.
neocons supposedly beleive in democracy, free trade and human rights, which is why they're overthrowing democracies, restricting trade and droning weddings

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 24 2014 10:09 utc | 179

Demian, I can't give you evidence that Bes is this or that. I can't even read the primary sources in russian (and yes, I meant russian-language web sites in ukraine, not ukrainian-language websites, and I agree that ukrainian is not even a real language, but just an artificially-constructed 'national' variant of russian).

I am describing a theoretical type, generalised from historical experience, which I think may save us from the endless back and forth of: is he a genuine rebel or a false flag agent? I am explaining the theoretical type of the 'ultra', who acts as provocateur, and even accepts money from the enemy to stage false flag acts, but out of a perverse, delusional ultra-revolutionary state of mind.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 24 2014 10:16 utc | 180

@ tpesm. 180, who says, "...of a perverse, delusional ultra-revolutionary state of mind..."

.
some of these people are trapped... if you got a couple thousand years of tradition, philosophy and history based on being persecuted, maybe you're comelled to things that guarantee you'll be persecuted

...but there are other people who realize this is their last chance to rule the world before the oil runs out... that's got racial and/or religious overtones, and those people are no less crazy

it's just a continuation of the british imperial tradition, that's all it is... only this time, they're using american muscle

americans dont seem to have a clue about how badly they're being used

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 24 2014 11:21 utc | 181

oh my

we got to validate our national history and traditions and philosophy, and that's why we're still peddling dope to prop up our financial system

the chinses kicked their dope habit, and that scares the living sh*t out of the empire

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 24 2014 11:29 utc | 182

but that's just how tyhe system works....

doesnt really work from any standpoint of human decency...

but decency doesnt seem to have been much of a factor...

nowadays we got people saying they're darwinists... "survival of the fittest" and all that

and they seem to equate darwins' "fitness" with the ability to wreck stuff... "i can wreck you before you wreck me"

but maybe the fitest humans are those who are best able to get along with other humans

maybe, in the long run, humans are unfit for survival
.
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gets tiresome, thinking about it

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 24 2014 11:44 utc | 183

#181, #182 sound like the Larouche contingent again, always trying to blame the so-called queen of England and her vile family of old-line Nazis, the biggest dope-dealers in the world, but most importantly, say the Larouchies, she and her vile family of etc etc still run the USA. Well, no, actually, this is all cobblers. Larouche was a bit more lucid when he was younger, but nowadays he's gaga, and evidently so are his followers.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 24 2014 11:45 utc | 184

well, the problem is, who dont really know who's using whom

are the brits still using radical jews? ...are they in it together? ...will there be some kind of final shootout to see who winds up on top?

...or is it a mutual admiration society of psychopaths?

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i used to feel an affinity with the brits... but looking back at their history, not so much any more

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but there's some kind of plan in operation here, and the neocons were stupid enough to publish their version...

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 24 2014 11:54 utc | 185

but there's some kind of plan in operation here, and the neocons were stupid enough to publish their version...

Yup, what is it?

Posted by: papa | May 24 2014 12:11 utc | 186

PNAC's "rebuilding America's defenses"

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 24 2014 12:13 utc | 187

there are a few things we should "nevermind" about PNAC

first, in "rebuilding america's defenses", they said they needed a new pearl harbor to get their project going

then they got into power, then their new pearl harbor happened

the PNAC plan for benevolent global hegemony is based on global "full pectrum dominance"

this plan was adopted by the bush administration as its national defense strategy... but it had nothing to do with "defense"... it is purely an offensive operation

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the co-founder of PNAC is robert kagan, is victoria nuland's husband

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 24 2014 12:23 utc | 188

crusader bunnypants, aka GW Bush, was not a PNAC signatory, but his brother jeb is...

and bunnypants was installed into the US presidency after an election recount in a state governed by jeb, the PNAC signatory

later, bunnypants, with a little help from his friends --notably tony blair-- successfully lied us into the iraq war...

and later still, tony blair gets a million dollar leadership award from israel, and becomes some kind of poohbah administering palestinian offshore oil deposits


well, nevermind... biden is a PNAC signatory, too, and his son recently became the director on the board of the biggest ukrainian gas producer

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 24 2014 12:38 utc | 189

well, that's way more than any decent person ever wanted to know about PNAC

i still have pretensions of decency, and that's why it gets so tiresome

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 24 2014 12:44 utc | 190

well, that's way more than any decent person ever wanted to know about PNAC

i still have pretensions of decency, and that's why it gets so tiresome

Posted by: flickervertigo | May 24 2014 12:46 utc | 191

BBC blatant lie fun

From May 7, same BBC

the Ukrainian government has asked its football league to hold remaining championship matches without spectators because of the risk of trouble.

It also wants games in the volatile south-eastern region to be moved to other parts of the country.

The call comes after clashes between supporters of a united Ukraine and pro-Russian groups at recent games.

BBC, May 24

The hardcore football fans from competing clubs - previously seen as radicals wreaking havoc wherever they went - are now suddenly seen as a powerful driving force behind a new emerging Ukraine.

A football fan in today's Ukraine is seen first of all as a protector of rights and freedoms - not a beer-bellied thug bent on destruction.

There is a new campaign to redefine Ukraine :-))

Posted by: somebody | May 24 2014 13:23 utc | 192

US Pressures NGOs Not to Help Detained Russian Journalists in Ukraine – Source

"The US government agencies send us and our colleagues pressing requests not to protect the interests of Russian journalists, who work on the Ukrainian territory and get detained by the security forces of that country," said the source, who preferred not to give their name or the name of the organization.

"Their explanation is that Russian journalists have completely discredited themselves, as they had allegedly witnessed at interrogations without interfering with the ill-treatment of the detained, often hide their faces, interact with terrorists, and thus, take their side," the source added.

Journalists of Russian news portal LifeNews, Oleg Sidyakin and Marat Saichenko, were detained May 18 by the Ukrainian National Guard near the city of Kramatorsk in the Donetsk region after they caught on camera a UN-marked military helicopter apparently used in a special operation targeting demonstrators.

They were later accused of assisting terrorism in the region. Their current whereabouts are unknown. Russian authorities have repeatedly issued calls for their freedom.

Over the past two months, reporters of Russia’s leading channels have been kidnapped, beaten, threatened and denied access to Ukraine. Broadcasting of Russian media has also been banned across the country.

The US insists that Russian journalists adhere to a "wrong" viewpoint, provide "nonobjective" coverage of events, and justify the actions of "separatists and armed terrorists" in their reports, the source said.

"This document – the instructions – also mentions that Russian media uses separatists attributes, the so-called St. George Ribbons. That is why their interests should not be protected," the source added."

The lies and hypocrisy perpetrated by U.S. fascists would make Herr Goebbels' green with envy, were he still alive.

Posted by: scalawag | May 24 2014 15:33 utc | 193

Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republics unite as one state: Novorossiya

A member of the Supreme Soviet of the Donetsk People's Republic said that independence referenda will occur in other regions of the Ukraine (in Russian).

Posted by: Demian | May 24 2014 17:13 utc | 194

What could we expect after the election?
Ukraine will probably be even more divided. Since alot of the east wont vote at all.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 24 2014 17:30 utc | 195

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