Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 03, 2014

Palestine: U.S. Negotiator Asks For Third Intifada

Kerry had fooled himself believing that Netanyahoo would ever allow for a Palestinian state. One hundred meetings later he finally admitted that such will never happen. Without robust U.S. pressure, unlikely to happen due to U.S. domestic politics, Netanyahoo and other right wing Israelis will never move from their absolutist position.

There is something to learn about self-illusion and the painful process of recognizing it in the Ynetnews interview with the U.S. negotiating team members, Inside the talks' failure: US officials open up. This line though stands out:

And then one of them added bitterly: "I guess we need another intifada to create the circumstances that would allow progress."

Maybe. Maybe a third intifada could help move the U.S. towards some serious pressure on Israel. I doubt it though. The Palestinians have better options. Join all possible international clubs including the International Court system, sue Israel, threaten to dissolve the Palestinian Authority, other steps. What is needed is unity and better, more decisive leaders. When will those evolve?

Posted by b on May 3, 2014 at 11:57 AM | Permalink

Comments
next page »

I think this is relevant, in a perverse sort of way. Gilad Atzmon in a new interview says something which casts a very long dark shadow. It's a short interview with no particular focus, but in the course of it, he is asked:

FEMEN protested against Front National, shouting "Fascist Epidemic." They would never shout the same thing about Israeli nationalist and patriotic ideology. Do these women practice Haskala? (haskala means enlightenment, whatever relevance that has - RB)

Gilad replies:
To start with, if Fascism is all it takes for young women to march naked in the streets, I certainly approve of the rise of the right. For a long time, the Left and the progressive movements have been immersed in sound-bite culture. The Left tags everything it fails to grasp as ‘fascism.’. These gorgeous girls do not seem to know what Fascism means nor they understand what ‘epidemic’ stands for. They fail to grasp that Fascism actually refers to strong government that pursues a national socialist ideology. Fascism holds that welfare and patriotism can coexist and even move society forward. Fascists contend that such a perception of patriotic welfare is the only answer to globalization and Zionist interventionism. FEMEN are obviously a front funded by Globalist Zionists, some even suggest that it is the Soros network that supports them. I wouldn’t expect them to fight Zion, they are instead a Zionist funded front.

There's a lot wrong with that reply, enough in fact to suggest that Gilad is nothing but a long-term sleeper agent who is now setting off on a career supporting fascism.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 3, 2014 12:43:19 PM | 1

@RB, others - please stick to the theme of the pieces I write. Femen has nothing to do with the Palestinian issue. Nor has general Jew bashing and other like stuff.

How can the Palestinians gain their state? What could they do next? Those are the questions. Ranting about side issues do not help them or us.

Posted by: b | May 3, 2014 12:47:16 PM | 2

How can the Palestinians gain their state?

publicly executing the leadership of Fatah might be a good start

Posted by: lol | May 3, 2014 12:55:54 PM | 3

i think the purpose of the usa in any of these negotiations is to make like they are acting in good faith while doing the opposite.. how else does one explain the consistency of getting nowhere on this issue? of course it doesn't help kerry is the point man.. if you want to drop the football - pass it to him..

meanwhile the leadership of palestinians are always bought off or don't act in the interests of their people. i don't want to say they deserve what they get, but one wonders why they don't get anywhere over so many years. meanwile israel continues to steal land and treat anyone who isn't jewish as a 2nd or 3rd class citizen.. a country build on racism doesn't have much of a future in it either and they don't seem to want to change any of that any time soon either.. keep on impregnating those far right religious members who are churning out very large families. this has to end badly as no one in a position of power wants to change any of it other then with lip service.

Posted by: james | May 3, 2014 1:01:27 PM | 4

PS: it is impossible for any Palestinian State to emerge now

"Facts on the Ground" have been deliberately engineered for decades to make an even semi-viable Palestinian state a complete impossibility.

One look at a map of existing and planned Israeli colonies is all that's needed to arrive at the inescapable conclusion that no viable Palestinian state could ever emerge from the ruins of what was Arab Palestine

The only thing left for Palestinians now is to demand equal rights in ALL of the geographic area controlled by the criminal Zionist state.

Any further pretense that some sort of viable Palestinian state is still a possibility is frankly moronic

Posted by: lol | May 3, 2014 1:02:48 PM | 5

How can the Plastelinans gain their state? They can't. It's a stupid fantasy and I can't imagine why you cling to it.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 3, 2014 1:08:35 PM | 6

fatah? biggest joke ever!
Meanwhile Israel bombed a Freedom flottila ship the other day.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/04/blast-damages-gaza-anti-siege-boat-2014429124952109693.html

Posted by: Anoynmous | May 3, 2014 1:14:01 PM | 7

You know, bernhard, sometimes you strike me as being a truly stupid bastard. There was no "ranting" in what I posted, nor is it irrelevant. It is highly relevant, because whether you like it or not, Gilad has caught the general mood perfectly: "zionism" has become a focus of globalisation, ie subversion and denationalisation.

If you took the trouble to keep up with the news packages that we are always discussinginstead of wasting your time and ours on phony shit from Ynet and WaPo, you would be aware for example that yesterday a commentator appeared on RT.com and stated for a fact that the Ukraine destabilisation was organised and in parts executed by CIA, MI6 and Mossad.. If you still don't get it, we're talking about the mystery teams of snipers that appear at destabilisation spots and shoot both sides accurately enough to score multiple kills, then vanish without apprehension or even speculation.

Do you get it now? Do you understand why Gilad (whatever his motives) is playing the fascist cared in the name of anti-zionism. No, you don't get it. Your german mindfuck of a mis-education prevents you. And with a stupid man like you at the helm, it's hard to see exactly where MoA can go. Personally, I don't like Gilad's method here at all, but there's no denying its relevance. Unless you are a truly stupid bastard, that is, in which case my amount of "ranting" will enlighten you, because you just aren't intelligent enough to see the big picture. That's lucky for you, of course: the morons usually get an easier death than the smart alecs.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 3, 2014 1:21:02 PM | 8

As sad as it is, there is nothing Palestinians can do, unless status quo changes. Until then, Israel will always fake negotiations while they are landgrabbing and building more illegal settlements. US will unconditionally support it, including in UNSC. Therefore palestinians cant win either with fighting, or with peaceful "Gandhi style", israel wont be phased by either.

Actually, another Intifada would make things even worse, because Israel would grab the rest of the territory and expel Palestinians to Jordan and Syria, and US with meek EU will claim "its justified."

The main question is, whats needed for status quo to change?

1. US stops being superpower. They are on their way out, but it will still take a couple of decades for their immense influence to fade away. Israel without an umbrella of the superpower will have increasingly hard time to continue their apartheid occupation, while new UNSC (or reformed UN, with China and BRICS probably on top) might not be so benign on Israel for their crimes against humanity. If situation wont be resolved peacefully, new UNSC might enforce reasonable solution.

2. Israel does something drastic and suicidal, i.e. like starting all-out war with Iran and Syria/Hezbollah. This would leave Israel significantly weakened, and Palestinians might win their freedom with the help of Resistance axis.

3. Palestinian leadership betrays their people and agree to Israel's absurd and humiliating demands. This way they could get the semi-autonomous state, but I doubt Palestinians will agree, and rather hang such traitor leadership and renege on the deal.

I dont see any other way, and 2nd is a very remote possibility. Nutjobyahoo and others might be crazy psychos, but they arent suicidal, they want US to fight their wars. Therefore Palestinians most likely get their state when 1st point happens, and we are a long way from that.

Posted by: Harry | May 3, 2014 1:31:35 PM | 9

Worldwide BDS is the best, most effective solution I see right now for the Palestinians to move things forward. Don't buy Israeli/Zionist products, don't listen to Israeli/Zionist speakers, don't go see movies with Israeli/Zionist actors etc etc etc. Follow the lead of the Palestinian BDS movement and purge your own life of anything having to do with the apartheid genocidal state of Israel and pass the word. Oh but that punishes the "good" Israelis/Zionists as well as the bad, they whine?

Hmmm, because the Israeli apartheid/genocide only targets the "bad" Palestinians? Got it, fuckers.

On a darker but very much related note:

I know this will strike some as the utmost in conspiratorial nonsense but the technology to electromagnetically beam "voices" inside the skulls of people has been around for quite some time. Here are a couple of mentions on the technology being used in Iraq. Anywho, you can find all sorts of stuff about this technology being reportedly used for decades by intelligence agencies in MK Ultra and other mind-control experiments and organized crime. The crazy loner who hears voices telling him to go on a rampage is so common as to need not be documented here but the stories take on another dimension when you realize that the shooters may have been telling the truth all along. Here's the Washington DC Navy Yard (2013) shooters wikipedia entry:

After the Washington Navy Yard shooting, the media speculated that Alexis had appeared to be suffering from mental illness. The media reported that Alexis had filed a police report in Rhode Island on August 2, 2013, in which he claimed to be the victim of harassment and that he was hearing voices in his head.[54] According to an FBI official after the shooting, Alexis was under "the delusional belief that he was being controlled or influenced by extremely low frequency electromagnetic waves".[55] A message later obtained by federal authorities from Alexis' personal computing devices said, "Ultra low frequency attack is what I've been subject to for the last 3 months. And to be perfectly honest, that is what has driven me to this."[55]

The man who shot Representative Giffords also "heard voices" and had conversations inside his head.

How does this relate to apartheid genocidal state of Israel and its continued defiance of all things moral?

The phenomenon of Christian Zionism has been rampant in the United States for decades. It as a movement is used as a stalwart vehicle by which Israel can guarantee fanatical devotion to itself among the American peons AND the very powerful people - Presidents, Senators, military leaders esp USAF, etc - in this country. Many of these very powerful people regularly speak about how the hear God's voice inside their heads and actively speak to Jesus et al when decisions need to be made.

George W. Bush: God Told Me to End the Tyranny in Iraq is but one of many many examples.

What am I saying? That due to potential manipulation by available technology, persons in any position of power should no longer be allowed to say that they speak to God, Jesus, Mother Mary (looking at you McCartney) or any other entity that is demonstrably not real because it is a security risk. If the reasons for you doing something - going on a shooting rampage OR invading a country that just happens to be next in line for the PNAC/Yinon Plan - are that a voice told you to, the public should start thinking not that this person is religious or crazy but rather that they may be the victim of having their minds tampered with.

Enjoy the weekend. Won't be around much to reply but just wanted to offer maybe a topic of interest for the independent thinkers here.

Posted by: JSorrentine | May 3, 2014 1:33:18 PM | 10

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidon

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 3, 2014 1:38:30 PM | 11

"Maybe. Maybe a third intifada could help move the U.S. towards some serious pressure on Israel. I doubt it though. The Palestinians have better options. Join all possible international clubs including the International Court system, sue Israel, threaten to dissolve the Palestinian Authority, other steps. What is needed is unity and better, more decisive leaders. When will those evolve?"

Those steps will help, but not remove the Israeli boot from the neck of the Palestinians. What is really needed to remove that boot is the total dismantling of zionist influence on the west. With their "Israel lobbies" and zionist interests controlling the west's actions with regard to Israel, these countries remain at the beck and call of Israel. And Palestine can do nothing to remove that influence, the people of the west have to remove their zionist choke collar themselves. Once Israel no longer has this power over the west, rest assured, there will be immediate and substantial changes in working out the Israeli problem in Palestine. Without removing the zionist influence, the Israeli noose around Palestine will only continue to tighten.

Posted by: scalawag | May 3, 2014 1:38:43 PM | 12

@Rowan Berkeley:

Atzmon is apparently not the only one who suspects that Femen may have Zionist connections. Russian foreign policy expert Andrei Fursov recently had this to say during a discussion on Ukraine:

Finally, one more part of the Ukrainian economy, which experts prefer not to write about. Arms trade, military technology and narcotics. Experts name dozens of names here. The main ones are: Vadim Rabinovitch, citizen of Israel, Ukraine and Hungary ... Rabinovitch is a very interesting figure. He supports the gay-lesbian party Raduga and the Kiev feminist group Femen. Often quarrels with other Jewish oligarchs.

Full text here.

Posted by: James Patrick | May 3, 2014 1:52:21 PM | 13

I think the creation of a Palestinian state is as remote as the creation of a socialist Venezuela, and for the same reasons. Israel is the creation of the USUK and will exist for as long as the Empire exists.

Yes, if the PLO et al got their act together maybe, just maybe, Israel could be forced to negotiate, but until the US decides that Israel is no longer important to its 'grand plan', it will continue to be cancerous growth, slap-bang in the middle of the Middle East.

Posted by: William Bowles | May 3, 2014 2:01:03 PM | 14

@Rowan Berkeley:

Atzmon is apparently not the only one who suspects that Femen may have Zionist connections. Russian foreign policy expert Andrei Fursov recently had this to say during a discussion on Ukraine:

Finally, one more part of the Ukrainian economy, which experts prefer not to write about. Arms trade, military technology and narcotics. Experts name dozens of names here. The main ones are: Vadim Rabinovitch, citizen of Israel, Ukraine and Hungary ... Rabinovitch is a very interesting figure. He supports the gay-lesbian party Raduga and the Kiev feminist group Femen. Often quarrels with other Jewish oligarchs.

Full text here.

Posted by: James Patrick | May 3, 2014 1:52:21 PM | 13

even according to your own post FEMEN was conceived and financed by a Jewish Israeli.

So there's no 'may have' about it

FEMEN is a Zionist/Jewish conceived and financed front-group whose targets are almost exclusively either Russian, Christian or Muslim.

Nothing more nothing less.

Posted by: lol | May 3, 2014 2:19:21 PM | 15

Ps

anyone or anything that spends it's time criticising Catholics, other Christians and Muslims without so much as one word of similar criticism for religious Judaism is clearly a tool of Zionism/Judaism

That pretty must covers all such entities that one regularly sees criticising Catholics, other Christians and/or Muslims - whether or not they present themselves as coming from the political Left or political Right is immaterial.

Posted by: lol | May 3, 2014 2:23:47 PM | 16

Presumably Gilad is reacting against the antifas by defending the fas; the pro-Israel allegiance of the antifa movement is clear, see for example:

http://bourgoinblog.wordpress.com/2014/04/30/les-antifas-faux-rebelles-vrais-collabos/

This is a good example of how the "Left" has been co-opted by a certain group of fas to the detriment of the Palestinian cause.

RB runs a blog that is indispensable for keeping up with daily news (the important stuff) but he expects a higher tolerance for disagreement from b. here than he shows there.

Posted by: Cu Chulainn | May 3, 2014 2:37:41 PM | 17

RB runs a blog that is indispensable for keeping up with daily news (the important stuff) but he expects a higher tolerance for disagreement from b. here than he shows there.

Posted by: Cu Chulainn | May 3, 2014 2:37:41 PM | 17

much as I like hearing RB's take on many subjects, which I often disagree with, but which are at least the product of his own mind rather than merely being a regurgitation of the last thing he read on the subject, I have to agree with CC @17

RB - leave the handbags at home. ta very much

Posted by: lol | May 3, 2014 2:42:56 PM | 18

Doesn't official Palestine support Syrian Jihad? Dropping that wouldn't hurt.

Posted by: ruralito | May 3, 2014 2:46:12 PM | 19

the pro-Israel allegiance of the antifa movement is clear, see for example:

Speaking from extensive personal experience, the majority of the Anti-FA movement are barely indistinguishable from the FA movement when it comes to their level of intolerance for different opinion- the only real distinguishing characteristic is that the targets of their hate are different. That's all.

Posted by: lol | May 3, 2014 2:48:23 PM | 20

I'm not hyperventilating about femen, I'm hyperventilating about the snipers. I think they triggered the Odessa massacre. We had something from scallawag, a right sector annotation to a YouTube video which talked about multiple fatalities among their side, from shots they said were fired from inside or on top of the trade union building. So that's one side. And we have a YouTtube clip of a man standing, completely unmolested, in front of the building and firing up at it with an automatic pistol. I repeat, no one is even appealing to him to stop. He is wearing no insignia, just very anonymous-looking plain casual clothes. So that's the other side. Who are these people? They're Israelis, I'm sure of it.

And I insist that the question of Palestine is over. I suppose it was never a realistic possibility in the first place. I call it Plastelina, to indicate its endlessly malleable, play-putty nature. All this conventional politicking is just a hollow shell, but something is moving inside it, and it would be a little absurd to claim that it is CIA or MI6 assassination squads, floating in and out of country after country like ghosts and - this is important - never being conclusively identified, let alone pursued. It has to be Mossad.

So the whole conventional picture of 'Israel' is utterly wrong. Israel is a super-power, in fact the only super-power there is left. It can do whatever it wishes, knock over country after country, and no-one in any government will say a word even to identify it. You have to ask what this magic is. It isn't conventional political power. It has to be the power of ownership, of simply owning everything, so that everybody in government above a certain level knows that Israel is their employer. I don't mind calling it 'Israel' instead of as previously insisting it is 'the Jews', because Israel as such is now emerging from the shapeless mass as the prime mover of everything. And this is one of my semi-intuitive, semi-rational leaps that eventually, ten years later, becomes an accepted fact, when it's too late to do anything about it.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | May 3, 2014 3:13:11 PM | 21

I think the creation of a Palestinian state is as remote as the creation of a socialist Venezuela

A truly socialist Venezuela has a far far greater chance of coming into being than any naively-hoped-for Palestinian state

A Palestinian state, as imagined and promoted by the Two-State Solutionists, both Zionist and allegedly non/Anti-zionist, is at this late stage nothing a cruel and impossible fiction

The continued promotion of such cruel and impossible fictions as a "Two State solution" is simply doing the work of the zionist-racists

Posted by: lol | May 3, 2014 3:22:16 PM | 22

@JSorrentine

The LRAD projects a 30degree beam at 2.5KHz with a maximum dB level of 162 at 1meter. Maximum range for 'speech' is quoted as 8900meters but you can imagine how wide the sound field would be at large distances.

Just to give some context: a jet engine @ 100ft is 140dB, a shotgun blast is 165 dB.

Extremely low frequency sound is omnidirectional (your subwoofer can be placed anywhere in your movie room and doesn't require line of sight to be heard clearly). So projecting this type of sound in the way described is impossible.

The far more likely explanation for those that hear voices telling them to do terrible things is mental illness.

Posted by: WG | May 3, 2014 3:24:14 PM | 23

I'm not sure there is a debate left on the subject. There is nothing left for the Palestinian's to enjoy as a homeland. The days when we could be satisfied to have a roof over our heads, food in your stomachs, and a legacy left for out children are long gone...There are powerful forces which seek a disruptive atmosphere of life. This may be simplistic, but it is as it is....

Posted by: georgeg | May 3, 2014 3:32:43 PM | 24

Posted by: lol | May 3, 2014 3:22:16 PM | 22

For the record, I've never believed in, or advocated for a 'two-state solution'. It's pretty obvious that the only solution is a at the very least, a secular, multi-national state and I figure that it's only the entire people of what was Palestine, that can provide that solution.

Posted by: William Bowles | May 3, 2014 3:35:34 PM | 25

@Rowan

There's no doubt that people who support current Israeli policy are highly influential in the US. In the media, academia, and in positions of power within the government. That being said however, there is a limit to what they can 'encourage' the US to do. They have desperately wanted US intervention in Iran and Syria and as of yet have been unable to achieve either.

IMHO the most important thing to the US is to ensure that the US$ remains the worlds reserve currency, that is their #1 focus. Israel is high up on the list but it's certainly not above US$. Without US$ as the reserve $ then all other considerations become impossible.

Perhaps in the past the US had the luxury of putting Israeli interests first but since 2009 and QE1,2,3,whee... Being unable to continue printing $ with no real consequences will be the end of the whole enterprise.

This might eventually be a positive thing for the Palestinians as at some point the US will simply be unable to afford the ongoing blank cheque they extend to Israel. When that happens a Palestinian state will arrive soon after.

Posted by: WG | May 3, 2014 3:42:25 PM | 26

@25

To be contrarian...

A secular, multinational state like Yugoslavia?

Thanks to Western agitation, that didnt work out very well. Even if Palestinians somehow forced the Zionists to give them citizenship, the Zionists would do false flags or whatever to cause more conflict again. And of course blame it on the Palestinians.

Sigh.

Both a two state and unitarian state seem impossible to me. Im afraid the Palestinians are pretty much fucked no matter what happens for the foreseeable future.

Posted by: Massinissa | May 3, 2014 3:55:03 PM | 27

So who wants to take money bets on when Rowan gets banned by B?

Posted by: Massinissa | May 3, 2014 3:57:22 PM | 28

Posted by: Massinissa | May 3, 2014 3:55:03 PM | 27

So there's no point then? And this is just well, passing the time? An academic exercise? What the fuck are you saying?

Posted by: William Bowles | May 3, 2014 3:58:27 PM | 29

Did anyone ever come to the conclusion the Rowan Berkeley is bonkers and sees Zionism everywhere?
He wants her {Judaism/Zionism} so badly he has become a stalker.

Posted by: amir | May 3, 2014 4:10:34 PM | 30

JSorrentine was on target about the utility of BDS and should have ended his post after the first
paragraph.

Posted by: truthbetold | May 3, 2014 4:24:02 PM | 31

Marine Le Pen's party is not fascist but she is pro-Putin with regards to Ukraine and might be sympathetic to Eurasianism.

Posted by: truthbetold | May 3, 2014 4:28:21 PM | 32

There are two problems with the state. The first is that the Palestinian nationalist leadership (like most nationalists in power nowadays) are fakes. Witness throwing the refugees outside historic Palestine under the bus. This is practically identical to the treatment given to ethnic Nepali refugees from Bhutan, when they arrived in Nepal.

The second is that they are imperialist nationalists. This term may sound like a contradiction in terms, but it has a history. Compare with Canada---the Canadian nationalists wanted an 'independent' state that was part of the British empire. The 'Palestinian nationalist' leadership (both factions, i.e. Fatah and Hamas) both in practice follow such logic. The logic is thus: the nationalist party must establish itself as de facto controlling the desired territory, and then use its clout as the good cop side of a bid for semi-independence, i.e. a state that they run, as effective client kings. Another example (though less embarrassing, perhaps) is the current leadership of Chechnya---the Russian-supported leader is a former pro-independence guerrilla.

Palestine lacks the natural borders of Eritrea, much less a technologically weak opponent, so such a juche-style independence movement is tricky. But they do have much international sentiment on their side, so trying to get more acceptance in international bodies seems a wise short-term play.

Because the US/Israel alliance is in fact fanatically opposed to a meaningful Palestinian state, this can be played to the Palestinian advantage. Bring each abuse to the world court, let the court make a mess of it, and let Russia and China use these matters to pursue their interests at the expense of the US; other regional powers will do the same. As the US power wanes, Palestinian nationalist factions can find sponsor powers to implement a state. But this is a long-term view.

As to the mid term, some introspection is called for. The current nationalist movement is corrupt and utterly opportunistic. The Zionist movement is perhaps something worth studying: The use, abandonment and reuse of terrorism when the situation allowed it AND it served their goals, the fact of multiple independent factions that DIDN'T generally try to dissolve each other, etc.

Another matter is the BDS movement. Netanyahu's fanatical position just made the BDS movement more powerful---I'm thinking in terms of Finkelstein's criticism on an international law front that it would dissolve multiple Palestinian legal strengths. Netanyahu just threw that away. While boycotts and sanctions generally are circumvented (it was Cuba's defeat of apartheid forces, by holding out long enough, at Cuito Canavale, followed by their control of Namibian skies, rather than sanctions, that ended apartheid), except when destruction is desired (Cuba, Iraq), they create a propaganda-averse culture, by investing their participants in the outcome---people are more critical of claims when they are invested in the reality of the claims (as opposed to being invested in that people accept the claims) than when they are not invested.

Posted by: Johan Meyer | May 3, 2014 4:53:03 PM | 33

James Patrick @13

The Russian foreign policy expert Andrei Fursov talk you reference is excellent.

Posted by: MRW | May 3, 2014 4:53:06 PM | 34

Whatever his virtues and flaws, Finklestein predicted wrongly on the failed peace talks.

Posted by: truthbetold | May 3, 2014 5:06:13 PM | 35

@34 MRW - it's just a coincidence that rowan berkeley posted that same transcript here at moa a few days ago.. we can't see all the posts that get made, or have some special ability to isolate the more fascinating ones, but i agree with you on j. patricks link.

Posted by: james | May 3, 2014 5:08:30 PM | 36

@23

Please research voice to skull technologies and other ELF/EMF weapons - that means actually spending some time on the ole Internets! - and then save yourself the embarrassment of speaking in the future about what you don't know about. Just a tip.

Posted by: JSorrentine | May 3, 2014 5:27:55 PM | 37

Here's another link about the microwave auditory effect but that's ok I shouldn't talk about such things.

Back OT:

Finkelstein has fully joined the cast of other fake left losers - i.e.,. Chomsky etc - with his denunciation of the BDS movement and should now be treated as the fucking gate-keeping bitch that he indeed is.

Oh but he's done SO MUCH and suffered SO MUCH, they fake left fanboys cry.

Too bad and don't care. He's shown his true colors and he's a fucking impediment to forcing the apartheid genocidal state of Israel pay for its continued war crimes. Fuck him.

Posted by: JSorrentine | May 3, 2014 5:36:15 PM | 38

There'll be no intifada. The Palestinian cause has been co-opted/corrupted by the US/Israeli backed Arab monarchs and Turkey and therefore have been effectively destroyed/tamed.

Their entire leadership have also sold out to the highest bidder, with seasoned collaborator, Mahmoud Abbas(the Shah of Palestine) leading the pack. Hamas's already been tamed via Turkey and Qatar and have turned their weapons on the resistance axis in the region in Syria. Hamas was/is fighting in the same trenches as the Syrian fsa.

The only choice left is a one state solution with some limited rights to Palestinians. Years of land theft by the Israelis with the tacit collaboration of the Palestinian Authority, led by Mahmoud Abbas, have made a viable Palestinian state virtually impossible. game over!

Posted by: Zico | May 3, 2014 5:37:25 PM | 39

Zico

Good summary, another solution is 100% apartheid. After all who would care? There are apartheid now and no one cares.

Posted by: Anoynmous | May 3, 2014 5:46:39 PM | 40

Posted by: Zico | May 3, 2014 5:37:25 PM | 39

"The only choice left is a one state solution with some limited rights to Palestinians."

You mean like Black people had to endure in the USA or South Africa? For centuries? Non-Jewish citizens in apartheid Israel already got that, btw. Even among Jews in Israel, their is an accepted stratified pecking order of privilege and prejudice based upon culture and skin color.

The problem isn't Palestinians, the victims, it is Israelis, the oppressors and corrupters. These are the people who need hardcore leaning on.

Posted by: scalawag | May 3, 2014 5:47:58 PM | 41

I really did want to highlight the effect of Christian Zionism on the continued allowance for the apartheid genocidal state of Israel's continued war crimes through a look at one of the techniques that may be in play concerning American political and military leaders as they are believers in radical evangelical/fundamental Christianity and how they routinely "speak to God/Jesus" in carrying out their duties as those duties affect the lives of millions of innocent people. So, the "voices in the head" technique can drive people nuts if they don't want voices in their head but what if there were a subsection of people - i.e., all good fundie Christians - that actually DO WANT A VOICE in their heads? Y'know, a "Jesus" to tell them what to do? Gee, wouldn't that be a hoot, huh?

Yes, it's out there but rather than jump on the I/P merry-go-around for like the 17 billionth time I thought I'd spice it up and look at a new angle. Sue me.

For the topicality of the thread, I will save the any more discussions of the mind games technologies and their uses for another time.

Posted by: JSorrentine | May 3, 2014 6:01:38 PM | 42

#10;Agree 100%.Money is the overriding factor to for bad people.Peaceful Gandhi like protest(and yeah,join all those Int. orgs) and boycott of the Zionist money machine, Hollywood propaganda, Las Vegas, Israeli products and banksters.Unfortunately,their tentacles reach into many things necessary for our daily lives,such as healthcare ,insurance,cable providers etc.,and there also Jewish religious tithing.Impossible to totally affect the money train,but possible to impede it enough to make them get to the real negotiating table.
Either that or the surrounding people just rush the criminals,as they really are limited in using all that military hardware with their own citizens at risk.Of course,the attackers will lose a lot of casualties,but they have been dying continually for the last 70 years.
Negotiation and compromise are the best and wisest course,but I don't see any wisdom from Israel,only the hubris of absolute corrupting power.

Posted by: dahoit | May 3, 2014 6:20:30 PM | 43

WG @26,

It's the world that determines whether we are the world's reserve currency, not us. As long as other countries want to net save in US dollars--in other words, want our money--they will continue to sell us stuff to get our currency. When other countries no longer want US dollars, they will demand payment from us in the currency they want, and that currency will become the unit of payment that the world wants to hold in reserve.

As an aside: Kissinger's deal with the Saudis in 1975 cemented that the US dollar would be the reserve over the British Pound. He told the Saudis after the 1973 oil embargo that if they would "buy our debt," he would make sure that the price of oil was kept high enough to make it worth their while. That continued until Jimmy Carter undercut the Saudis by deregulating natural gas in the USA in 1978 (Reagan got the credit for reducing the price of oil and reducing inflation, but it was Carter). "Buy our debt" meant that the Saudis would demand payment for their oil worldwide in US dollars. Then they would buy US treasury securities (bonds) with it. Which means nothing more than parking their dollars in a US bank. Buying our debt means buying our money. Treasury securities are like getting a Bank CD, but from the US Treasury, that's why they are considered the safest financial instrument in the world.


Whether we are the reserve currency or not has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that we have a sovereign non-convertible currency with a floating exchange rate, and that we have been 100% sovereign since August 15, 1971. That's the date we went off gold internationally. But we went off it domestically in 1933, and we went through WWII and built the middle class without being the reserve currency.

The term "printing money" was applicable during the gold standard stage, which is pre-1933. We don’t print money. We issue it. These days our money is keystrokes, with paper and coin tokens created to handle the citizenry's everyday transactions in trade and commerce. This physical cash is about 11% of the total amount of money created annually.

Posted by: MRW | May 3, 2014 6:22:43 PM | 44

@JSorrentine

I was simply responding to your original references which were regarding the LRAD. The LRAD would not be capable of producing the effects you were referring to (namely auditory halucinations that only the subject would hear).

The US research you are now linking to is for another crowd control device that simply blasts a large area with microwave pulses “to raise the auditory sensation to the ‘discomfort’ level, deterring personnel from entering a protected perimeter or, if necessary, temporarily incapacitating particular individuals.”

You will note that this device did not actually allow voice messages to be sent, it simply produced what would feel like unbearably loud pulsing sounds. There is minimal mention of a study that apparently was able to transmit what could be detected as the numbers between 1 - 10 however microwave output levels required would produce short and long term damage to the person being subjected to them.

For a moment lets return to your first post. Have you seen the size of the MEDUSA device? It's basically a Hummer with a patio table on the top of it. And you propose that these vehicles are driving around and targeting major political and military leaders in the US in order to get them to follow pro Israel policies? Yet instead of simply using one to target Representative Giffords to get her to do what they wanted, instead they decided to target an unstable individual in order to have him shoot her? The whole thing just seems needlessly elaborate although maybe it explains why John Kerry always looks like he has a sun burn ;)

Lastly let me just add, there is no reason to be rude or insulting in your replies. Surely we can have a discussion about something in a friendly manner without further name calling.

Posted by: WG | May 3, 2014 6:27:31 PM | 45

When the racist State of Israel was established in the 1040s, it was obvious that it would never be satisfied with its original borders, it was incompatible with its neighbours and that it would inevitably expand to occupy the whole of Palestine and perhaps even further into other neighbours. This required regarding the remnants of Palestine as a Terra Nullius and some system of controlling Palestinians, while denying them a vote.
Sadly, this has all come to pass and it the process will continue until the decline of the U.S. denies Israel of adequate support. It's quite possible that the end result will be the end of Israel as an independent State.

Posted by: DrBob | May 3, 2014 6:35:44 PM | 46

So far as BDS is concerned, I'm all for it. But nobody should believe for a moment that it worked on South Africa, it helped but the reason that Pretoria settled-for the sort of deal, by the way, that would leave most of Palestine in Israeli hands, if followed in Palestine- was that a couple of divisions of the Cuban Army beat the shit out of it when it was trying, with US/Israeli/ NATO assistance, to install a stooge of the imperialists in Angola. Then there was Mozambique. After that theories of a master race and black inferiority were as unfashionable in South Africa as similar feelings involving slavs and asiatics (Pravy Sektor's 'squints') were in Berlin in 1945.

Israel suffers from the weakness that it is fascist state. It has a fascist government and it will remain fascistic until the end. Fascist states are weak, they cannot last because they are based-in the final analysis- on the grinding down of the masses. At first they gain strength from the promise to the "chosen" that untermenschen such as Arabs will be their slaves. But it never works out that way: by the time Germany and Italy had run out of cannon fodder, fascism was extremely unpopular.
Israel has the benefit of living in close proximity to the tit offered by US Congress, but that cannot last. If only because its fascist rulers-oligarchs-are so greedy that they keep cutting back the benefits ordinary Israelis get. Already fissures are appearing in the consensus of this society. It cannot last long.

Then there is the question of what really supports it, not the US but Egypt's successive dictators, the Saudi family whose future is measured in months rather than years, the Turks and the Hashemites in Jordan. Not to mention the "fanatical muslims fighting for Zion" in Syria. Israel may be powerful but it is perched on the edge of a volcano. And Hezbollah is watching.

The solution will be one state, its size depending on all manner of factors, Jordan and Egypt most obviously. Its population will be of all religions and none, with muslims being the plurality. As to Zionism it cannot survive, when colonialism turns into fascism and the mask of benevolence and promise of justice is thrown off, its days are numbered.

There will be no Bantustan. There will be a settling of the wrongs of the Naqba. There will be a demolition of settlements, towns and cities. There will be Justice and then thee will be peace.

"Finkelstein has fully joined the cast of other fake left losers - i.e.,. Chomsky etc - with his denunciation of the BDS movement and should now be treated as the fucking gate-keeping bitch that he indeed is." JS @38

This is not only silly but, and you really ought to watch this, offensively worded: you have a tendency to label those that you disagree with "bitches" and "queens" (you obliged me in this way quite recently). Nobody cares but it really tells people more about you than the objects of your wrath.
Incidentally I by no means agree with all that Finkelstein writes nor his views on BDS but he has done an immense amount of good work, he is not a "gatekeeper" whatever that might mean and in one respect, his opposition to the sectarian self appointed vanguard which runs BDS (most of them enemies of Syria) is quite understandable.

Whatever happened to that break you promised us @10?

Posted by: bevin | May 3, 2014 6:45:02 PM | 47

30:Nah,he's just an outraged citizen of this planet who recognizes the corrupting influence of powerful Zionists on our politics,economics,education and whatever they touch,as they lay waste to more and more with their divide and conquer.Anyone who thinks that Israel has no hand in any of this Ukraine/Syria what have you are wearing tribal blinders,as every Zionist rag in America,and every Goebelish commentator,are fully on board the anti Russian train.In Israel,they might be a little more obtuse,I guess they don't want a few hundred ICBMS re-programed.(Too late)
Leave Zionism(Israeli nationalism)in Israel,where it belongs,and I will care not.It will then either flourish or collapse of its own weight and actions,without the US propping it up financially and militarily.

Posted by: dahoit | May 3, 2014 7:06:28 PM | 48


The two biggest external obstacles to "peace" are 1) The redefinition of anti-semitism to mean "any possible criticism of Israel, its government, or of right-wing Israeli politics" and 2) The ridiculous self-censorship of the press in English speaking countries, especially the U.S., which prevents the public from getting a true picture of the controversy.

The biggest internal obstacle is that even if Netanyahoo wanted to make peace, he couldn't do so without going the way of Yitzhak Rabin, prime minister of Israel who was assassinated by a settler fanatic in 1995.

The second biggest internal obstacle is the Israeli glorification of Samson-In-The-Temple, and Masada, plus the rattling of the nuclear sabre.

Posted by: rackstraw | May 3, 2014 7:30:31 PM | 49

@bevin
Cuba didn't beat the shit out of the SA forces; largely the reverse happened, but the Cubans managed to hold on. When they held out long enough to finish their landing strip at Cuito Canavale, South Africa asked for negotiations (Namibian skies, and all that).

@JSorrentine (and others, e.g. RB)
I notice that when someone says something with which you disagree, or fails to mention a detail that you believe crucial, you dismiss the person (fake left, etc.). Mind you, I do see much of what passes for a left as quite misguided, with a large set of people do the misguiding, and who could reasonably be called fake left.

This search for someone who says all the right things is worth some analysis. Your framework seems to be that people who fail to say the right things are variously ill-informed, CIA/etc. personnel, or stupid/fake left. Let us take that framework at face value.

So take someone who brings new information for a while, i.e. says the 'right' things, and is thus not CIA, or is CIA but trying to recruit (as may be the case in your implicit framework). Suddenly this person reverses course, to your experience, i.e. no longer says the right thing. Presumeably, the person could be misguided on a new matter, or deliberately misguiding. But why couldn't the audience, e.g. yourselves, be wrong? Let's put that possibility aside. Are left writers capable of stratagems, for example, or does that make them fake left?

In cases e.g. the call for a no fly zone (Chomsky) or no BDS (Finkelstein), why is it necessarily the case of evil motivation? What aspect of a no fly zone allowed/enabled the invasion? Which legal instruments were used to enable the invasion of Haiti in 2004? Recall that UN Security Council resolution 1542 came on 30 April 2004, while the coup/invasion was completed on 29 Febuary 2004.

Notice also the effect of Chomsky's support for the no fly zone. The US abuse of that no fly zone as a propaganda justification for the bombing of Libya forced the issue of the 'cruise missile left' (as fake a left as can be found) versus the rest. It was somewhat opportunistic of Chomsky, but as a stratagem, I'd say it came off damn well (irrespective of his intentions). Moreover, by doing something that figures in the US government publicly requested, it drew his affiliations into question, and forced activists to do what he'd been requesting for a long time, namely find source materials and publish them in the course of arguments (the holy master's affiliations being suddenly suspect).

With BDS, I must admit that you must truly have a faith in the benevolence and honesty of your government and its client states to implement actual sanctions against Israel. While I've already outlined why I think now is the time to go for BDS in this thread, you did not begin to present a case for BDS.

In summary, I don't see anything amounting to a case that the people you identify as fake left actually fit the bill, nor to treat their analyses with the dismissal that you suggest (versus more normal verification and further investigation).

Posted by: Johan Meyer | May 3, 2014 7:39:15 PM | 50

The best thing that could happen for the Palestinians is if the PA dissolved tomorrow morning.

One state already exists, and the fig-leaf of "government" that is the PA needs to step aside and recognize that fact.

The PA is nothing but a convenient ruse to mask the fact that Palestine already has a single government, Israel, that refuses to extend citizenship rights to a large number of its residents.

Posted by: sleepy | May 3, 2014 7:43:49 PM | 51

@45

JSorrentine is physiologically unable to have a conversation with someone without vitriol showing up in his statements. I respect his opinions a little but I dont respect his inability to show anyone the slightist bit of politeness.

But to him you probably dont deserve politeness because youre a disinfo agent or a gatekeeper or some other such thing. Whoever is not on Sorrentines side is apparently working for the enemy, theres no middle ground. What a frightening way to see the world.

Posted by: Massinissa | May 3, 2014 7:53:46 PM | 52

Question to Sorrentine:

Who, exactly, is NOT fake left? It would helpful to know who if anyone actually fits the bill considering the standards seem so high.

Posted by: Massinissa | May 3, 2014 7:56:48 PM | 53

Ah, yes, Finkelstein, the great anti-zionist hope.

Link to The Pro-Israel Lobby Debate by Hagit Borer, James Petras, and Norman Finkelstein

Below are quotations from that debate, NF or unattributed are by Finkelstein, JP is Petras and HB is Borer.

"In the case of Iraq, if you look concretely at what happens: Number 1 -- There is no evidence, whatsoever, that people like Wolfowitz or the others were trying to further an Israeli agenda."

"Now, it happens that in the late 1990s Israel would have preferred that the skull that was cracked would have been the Iranian one. There was no evidence that Iraq was uppermost on the Israeli agenda. In fact, all of this talk about the famous document that was written up by these neo-cons to attack Iraq -- that famous document -- was handed to Netanyahu when he came to office to try convince him to put Iraq at the top of the agenda. It’s not as if Israel passed that document to the neo-cons, who then plotted to get the US government to attack Iraq. It was the opposite. Israel would have preferred to attack Iran. However, once those in our government, maybe for misguided reasons for all I know, decided to fasten on to Iraq -- that is to attack Iraq -- Israel was of course ‘gung ho’ because Israel is always ‘gung ho’ about smashing up this or that Arab country."

"It doesn’t mean that people like Wolfowitz, let alone people like Cheney, are trying to serve an Israeli agenda. There is no evidence for claims like that. Its pure speculation based on things like ethnicity.

Lets take a simple example, that, I’ll call him James, I don’t usually call people by their first names, but Jim Petras mentioned . . . Let’s take the case of Elliott Abrams. These are interesting cases. Elliott Abrams is the son-in-law of Norman Podhoretz. And Norman Podhoretz was the first big neo-conservative supporter of Israel, the editor of Commentary, the magazine. But if you look at people like Podhoretz, you look at their history, I’ll take a book which I am sure Jim is familiar with, in 1967 Podhoretz publishes his famous memoir called Making It. It’s how he succeeded and made it in American life. He was a young man and the editor of Commentary Magazine. You read that book, his celebrated memoir written two months before the June 1967 war, there is exactly one-half of one sentence in the whole book on Israel. People like Podhoretz, Midge Decter, all the neo-cons . . . I have gone through the whole literature on the topic and have read it quite carefully. Before June 1967, they didn’t give a hoot about Israel. Israel never comes up in any of their memoirs, in any of the histories of the period. They become pro-Israel when Israel is useful to them in their pursuit of power and fortune in the United States. Elliott Abrams is as committed to Israel as his father-in-law, Norman Podhoretz, was committed to Israel: When it is convenient and when it is useful. This idea of trying to serve an Israeli agenda, especially coming from somebody as sophisticated as Jim Petras, strikes me as absurd. He knows as well as I do that power . . .

HB: Lets me just interrupt to let James . . .

JP: Its very strange that one says Wolfowitz was not influenced by the Israeli agenda when he was caught passing documents to Israel in the 1980s. And Douglas Feith lost his security clearance for handing documents to Israel. Elliott Abrams has written a book calling for maintaining the ‘purity’ of the Jewish race . . .

NF: I know. They write that crap . . . and you believe them? Jim, do you think they care?

JP: Its not a question of believing them, it’s a question of looking at the documentary evidence of uncritical, support for Israel in all of its policies -- a position that is taken by the Presidents of the Major American Jewish Organizations. They give unconditional support!"

Throughout that debate, Finkelstein repeatedly engages in what is well known as weasel wording and obfuscation. His pretense that well known Israeli assets are acting independently is obviously chutzpah. His comments about Iraq are beyond chutzpah. At best Finkelstein is an a culturally chauvinistic airhead, but I doubt he's actually an airhead. That leaves the obvious.

Posted by: scalawag | May 3, 2014 8:02:29 PM | 54

@54

Stalin said that "The best way to control the opposition is to lead it ourselves".

Israel has undoubtedly figured that out.

The Western elites in Washington certainly have, which is why they control both political parties...

Posted by: Massinissa | May 3, 2014 8:11:54 PM | 55

@Rowan. Wow. You hit that one on the head. However ridiculous the political puppets of FEMEN might be, the idea that fascism has anything at all to do with welfare, patriotism, or fighting globalism and zionism is bizarre and stupid.

And the idea that fascism exists to fight Israel and Zionism when all of Israel's great allies are actively putting a fascist government together in Ukraine seems wildly off base. The fact that Israel is quite obviously one of the world's foremost fascist states and that today's far right ultras now knows that the real enemy are the Muslims (including, obviously, the Palestinians), and Israel is a friend and a supporter should be enough to make Atzmon realize the stupidity of such a statement.

As for the idea that anti-fascists might be "intolerant" of fascists and their anti-social ideas - cry me a river. They happen to be right. They're right in Greece. They're right in Ukraine. They're right in the UK. They're right everywhere in that they exist to smash that gross little racist phenomenon whenever it pokes its little head above the dirt it lives in - hopefully before it can do too much damage.

Posted by: guest77 | May 3, 2014 8:12:26 PM | 56

In France and Germany the Anti-FA movement has essentially aligned itself with Zionism.

Ergo NOT Anti-FA at all

Which you'd know if you ever had any dealings with Euro Anti-FA's

They are essentially a Left-equivalent of the Fascists they claim to be against

Posted by: lol | May 3, 2014 8:21:07 PM | 57

@56

Those who complain about others being intolerant of intolerance, the way some complain about Antifas hurting fascists feelings a little, are the most dire and cynical of hypocrites.

Posted by: Massinissa | May 3, 2014 8:22:50 PM | 58

hahaha

here comes the clueless fake left again

As usual talking about something they know nothing about

Posted by: lol | May 3, 2014 8:24:27 PM | 59

anti-fascists might be "intolerant" of fascists

no one said anything about anti-fa being "intolerant" of fascists

Posted by: lol | May 3, 2014 8:26:17 PM | 60

@60

If theyre not intolerant of facists, theyre not doing the 'Antifascist' thing correctly.

Posted by: Massinissa | May 3, 2014 8:27:31 PM | 61

@60

If theyre not intolerant of facists, theyre not doing the 'Antifascist' thing correctly.

Posted by: Massinissa | May 3, 2014 8:27:31 PM | 61

Irregardless, no one here said anything about anti-fa being "intolerant" of fascists

Had much in the way of dealings with Euro Anti-Fa have you?

Do tell . . .

Posted by: lol | May 3, 2014 8:33:35 PM | 62

And . . .

In France and Germany the Anti-FA movement has essentially aligned itself with Zionism.

So - not as Anti-FA as they like to pretend

Posted by: lol | May 3, 2014 8:34:35 PM | 63

@scalawag
I'll put the two strawmen (anti-zionist, hope) aside.

Could you be a bit more explicit with that last paragraph? You've not quite made clear what you mean, and now that I've read your reference, I'm no more informed. Specifically, could you give a clear example of weasel wording, and what you believe the truth of the matter is with regards to Israeli control of the US state apparatus versus the reverse and versus e.g. Turkish control of the US state apparatus (beyond scale)?

Also, I'm confused by JP's argument. Where does the 'purity of the race' come into who controls what? This is especially confusing in light of handing out citizenship to Russian nationals with dubious Jewish ancestry, let alone complete Jewish ancestry.

Perhaps you could also point me to evidence that theft of documents to support various other client states are more vigorously prosecuted?

And as a control example, let's assume for argument's sake that Finkelstein is completely wrong on the Israeli-US matter, that the Israeli lobby has power to an extent that it maintains US power only for its own benefit, that Finkelstein is chauvinist, etc. How does that vitiate his analysis?

My own experience is that the chauvinist regimes often would publish rather interesting and well-thought-out papers---their power came from recognising the limits of their cultural world-view, and so they had to think about practical matters. You might want to start with the founder of the Bantu education system (DET)---while culturally chauvinist, he didn't subscribe to racialist notions of limits to education.

Posted by: Johan Meyer | May 3, 2014 8:36:59 PM | 64

@62

Im not the one who said it bro, guest77 did. Ask him.

Posted by: Massinissa | May 3, 2014 8:37:11 PM | 65

Correction: How is Finkelstein's analysis wrt BDS vitiated?

Posted by: Johan Meyer | May 3, 2014 8:40:39 PM | 66

@65

so basically you're saying that yes, you have no idea what you're talking about, when it comes to Euro Anti-FA

Ok - got it

Posted by: lol | May 3, 2014 8:44:50 PM | 67

In Holland, the far right is pro-Israel. I've already provided links for the UK. Le Pen has quite obviously bent over backwards to make up for her fathers anti-Semitism.
In Ukraine, it seems quite clear that an alliance has been made between zionism and fascism. Meanwhile, in Germany one sees the same dynamic: Muslims and anti-fascists together to battle the far-right. In France, the anti-fasctists have been instrumental in preventing the grandstanding of pro-Israel Pam Geller.

I'll assume what you mean by anti-fascists being intolerant applies to them not letting people like Geller speak. But this is, of course, intolerance of fascism. No matter what you'll claim. Though I suppose we could just take your claims to have "had any dealings with Euro Anti-FA" and leave it at that - but then you've claimed so many silly, stupid things.

The fact is that fascists suck up to power wherever they find it. They find it now in Israel against the muslims.

As for what anti-fascists are "intolerant" against - it is hard to find anything they come out on the streets for except fascism and racism.

Posted by: guest77 | May 3, 2014 8:54:37 PM | 68

I'll assume what you mean by anti-fascists being intolerant applies to them not letting people like Geller speak.

Well you can assume whatever you like, you usually do, and as usual you'd be wrong.

As for what anti-fascists are "intolerant" against - it is hard to find anything they come out on the streets for except fascism and racism.

Well yeah, when your only knowledge of them comes from the googling the web then yeah, it would be pretty hard to find anything useful

German and French Anti-FA are extremely anti the Palestinian cause

Both DE & FR anti-FA have come out against the Anti-Zionist pro-Palestinian movements

They are a very useful tool for the Zionists and are at this stage no doubt riddled with Pro-Israel infiltrators

Posted by: lol | May 3, 2014 9:02:34 PM | 69

So the situation as it stand right no is that both the Euro right and the Euro alleged Anti-Fa are for all intents and purposes Pro-Zionist

Well done Zionism, controlling both sides of the argument as usual

Posted by: lol | May 3, 2014 9:05:02 PM | 70

@67

Yup ^_^

But I would HOPE theyre against Fascism, since the name. But anyway its none of my business?

Posted by: Massinissa | May 3, 2014 9:12:14 PM | 71

@67 Though if it makes you feel better what youre saying sounds correct

Posted by: Massinissa | May 3, 2014 9:13:35 PM | 72

lol - the new revised brb.

Posted by: james | May 3, 2014 9:22:27 PM | 73

Posted by: Massinissa | May 3, 2014 9:13:35 PM | 72

@67 Though if it makes you feel better what youre saying sounds correct

Posted by: james | May 3, 2014 9:22:27 PM | 73

lol - the new revised brb.

Posted by: scalawag | May 3, 2014 9:24:56 PM | 74

In DE, The majority of active Anti-FA that I have met are usually very angry young people, with little in the way of economic prospects due to economic stagnation in DE (only jobs available being mainly 'mini-jobs')- but often with a somewhat decent education, and they tend to come from large cities.

The majority of FA that I have met are curiously enough also very angry young people with little in the way of economic prospects - education-wise they seemed to have less in the way of university education and more in the line of training in Trades such as Mechanic Plumber etc. the ones I've met generally came from smaller cities, regional towns, or rural environments, though there plenty of them in the larger cities too

The Anti-FA tended to be what one might call 'middle-class' - while the FA were predominately what might be termed 'working class' or 'urban and rural poor'


One thing they shared though was the anger at society - they just came to different conclusions as to the cause of the anger.

They actually often had much more in common with each other than either side would ever care to admit


I assume the situation is somewhat similar in FR

Posted by: lol | May 3, 2014 9:30:31 PM | 75

@75

"The Anti-FA tended to be what one might call 'middle-class' "

Excellent and probably spot on analysis, though for the AntiFas, you might want to say 'formerly' middle class since they dont seem that way anymore.

Most of the wests middle class is going to be 'formerly' soon, at least the parts that are not already.

Posted by: Massinissa | May 3, 2014 9:35:05 PM | 76

Posted by: Johan Meyer | May 3, 2014 8:36:59 PM | 64

Are you the new and improved Cold Holeinthewhatever? If so, or not (not that it matters), what do you think of what this means to Pennsylvania?

Link to 2 adults, 3 kids found dead in Pennsylvania cabin

Posted by: scalawag | May 3, 2014 9:40:10 PM | 77

Excellent and probably spot on analysis, though for the AntiFas, you might want to say 'formerly' middle class since they dont seem that way anymore.

Most of the wests middle class is going to be 'formerly' soon, at least the parts that are not already.

Posted by: Massinissa | May 3, 2014 9:35:05 PM | 76

well yes - unless you're part of the 1% or you own your own land and can somehow draw an income from that then everyone is working class - or unemployed class

The 1% just fool people into thinking that they are middle-class so as to con them into thinking that they are somehow superior to or separate from the plebs

Thatcher did it in the UK for example by selling off Council Properties to the working class, conning them into seeing themselves as Property owners and therefore no longer needing to vote Left - then what remained of the Left was overtaken by the likes of Blair

Posted by: lol | May 3, 2014 9:42:01 PM | 78

@scalawag
Ouch. I resent the comparison.

OK, I read the article---it is very upsetting. Not sure as to the relevance to the OP, nor to your suspicion of my identity with the coke hole. I cannot make out whether it was bad safety practice (CO poisoning), poverty related or not, etc.

Posted by: Johan Meyer | May 3, 2014 9:46:49 PM | 79

@scalawag
I missed your sarcastic question at the end. It means as much to most of PA as your comment above which I addressed produces an argument. We can all play that game.

Posted by: Johan Meyer | May 3, 2014 9:50:30 PM | 80

@78

Although in actuality, everyone but the owners of capital are in the proletariat, remember that the top 15% or so of income are beholden to the Capitalists and are not with us politically or socially, or at least dont perceive themselves to be, and are in many ways the enablers of the Capitalists themselves.

Without the high-wage petite bourgeoisie, the capital owning Bourgeoisie simply could not continue to effect social control.

Posted by: Massinissa | May 3, 2014 10:10:11 PM | 81

If we could get the U.S. government to stop aiding and abetting Israel that would help. In theory it is a numbers game as far as how many Americans support the ongoing wrongs and there is a ton of propaganda and deception that we have to overcome in order to get a a critical mass movement to put an end to the horrible policy of supporting Israel. People need to understand what Israel is. People need to understand what Israel does. There are a lot of powerful people working continually to make sure that doesn't happen. I'm willing to continue to work at it, anyone that wants to help by helping boost the platform I created on Youtube can subscribe to Representative Press and as others to do so. Maybe if millions of Americans were being exposed to the facts on a regular basis we could change things. Note how much suppression and dirty tricks are being used to keep the public in the dark. Here it the part of a recent video where I examine the latest example: http://youtu.be/g7so-YJ5CB0?t=4m7s

Posted by: Tom Murphy | May 3, 2014 10:19:32 PM | 82

Two state solution? Pictures worth a thousand words:

http://duplicitousdemocracy.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/dissappearing-palestine.jpg

Posted by: ben | May 4, 2014 12:00:57 AM | 83

if youre a hot lebanese woman...watch your back! Clooneys involvement with one has angered israeli jewish fans
http://www.panarabiaenquirer.com/wordpress/israel-calls-military-strikes-hot-lebanese-women-george-clooney-proposes-girlfriend/

Posted by: brian | May 4, 2014 12:33:06 AM | 84


These are three views that count: Israel, USA, and Everyone Else In The Whole Wide World.

The view of The Whole Wide World is clear: the colonization of occupied territory is ILLEGAL, and therefore these colonial "facts on the ground" can't strengthen Israel's "claim" (which is otherwise non-existent) to this territory.

The view of Israel: What are you talking about? This is our "land", even if we haven't annexed this "territory". So we can do what we want in this "land", even though... ummm... the "territory" isn't ours. Is that clear enough for you, pencil-head?

The view of the USA: I'm not going to say the word "illegal", even though we know that this is illegal. So we'll say it is "illegitimate" instead, because that ultimately means nothing.

It is that American view that enables this Israeli theft of territory, and nothing will change that while the USA insists on being a "dishonest honest broker".

But it's not enough for the USA to cease being the "broker", it also has to cease being "dishonest" because that dishonesty feeds the Israeli belief that Every Settlement It Establishes Is One More Parcel Of Territory That It Has Successfully Stolen From The Palestinians.

The USA has to be honest with the Israelis: settlements ARE illegal, so Israel actually has to "plea-bargain" for each colony it wants to keep, it can't just demand that the Palestinians surrender that territory.

That actually puts a price on this "settlement enterprise", and THAT's a sobering prospect for the Israelis.

Because at the moment the "settlement enterprise" is a cost-free exercise for the Israelis, and therefore the only sensible policy from their PoV is to continue on Full Steam Ahead!!!!

I don't expect the USA to change that policy - not any day soon, anyway - but without that change then nothing will change: the Israelis will continue to occupy this territory, all the better to colonize it.

After all, why would they do anything else?

Posted by: Johnboy | May 4, 2014 12:51:49 AM | 85

i will keep it short and simple as the history is long and complicated,but the pope has apologised to the jewish people,the germans have along with several other nations but not the arabs

they have a long history of oppressing jews but no apology,no acknowledgement,

below is a small example

FACT

While Jewish communities in Islamic countries fared better overall than those in Christian lands in Europe, Jews were no strangers to persecution and humiliation among the Arabs. As Princeton University historian Bernard Lewis has written: “The Golden Age of equal rights was a myth, and belief in it was a result, more than a cause, of Jewish sympathy for Islam.”17

Muhammad, the founder of Islam, traveled to Medina in 622 A.D. to attract followers to his new faith. When the Jews of Medina refused to recognize Muhammad as their Prophet, two of the major Jewish tribes were expelled. In 627, Muhammad’s followers killed between 600 and 900 of the men, and divided the surviving Jewish women and children amongst themselves.18

The Muslim attitude toward Jews is reflected in various verses throughout the Koran, the holy book of the Islamic faith. “They [the Children of Israel] were consigned to humiliation and wretchedness. They brought the wrath of God upon themselves, and this because they used to deny God’s signs and kill His Prophets unjustly and because they disobeyed and were transgressors” (Sura 2:61). According to the Koran, the Jews try to introduce corruption (5:64), have always been disobedient (5:78), and are enemies of Allah, the Prophet and the angels (2:97-98).

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFtreatment.html

but surely the day will come when arabs will be forced to acknowledge there crimes.

so a letter of apology by the arab nation ,a public announcement,will go a long way to bringing about reconcilation and trust.that is the basis for a peaceful and just settlement.TRUST.in a speech not so long ago bill clinton said the same thing and he is right


in south africa the truth and reconcilation process helped heal some of the wounds of apartheid

in the middle east a truth and reconcilation process between,israel and its neighbours is long overdue.

Posted by: mcohen | May 4, 2014 1:58:57 AM | 86

The fact is the CIA trained Palestinian police, and has done so on numerous occasions. That tells you all you need to know about the fake aspect of the PLO. Hamas is "terrorist" because not controlled by the CIA.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3046416,00.html

CIA has long history funding multiple sides, ensuring they have influence in many cases no matter how the political chips fall. Their problem, of course, is that the loyalty they get from their assets is purely from monetary interest. Internally, this leads to moral and strategic blindness, because the US rulers believe that everyone acts from as cynical and selfish motives as they do. But that's not true, and assuming we survive this current war drive, it ultimately will be their undoing.

Posted by: Jeff Kaye | May 4, 2014 2:28:17 AM | 87

@ guest77 | May 3, 2014 8:54:37 PM | 68

I must disagree on such a broad statement. In Holland, Geert Wilders runs a one-member party funded by the Islamophobes in the US who are pro-Israel. So the likes of Daniel Pipes, Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, Geert Wilders and Ayaan Hirsi Ali (and many others) have found a common cause.

The political union of the far-right parties in Europe is a bond with a single goal for the European Elections in May. The ideological differences are quite extensive, especially of their views on Israel and bigotry against Jews.

Posted by: Oui | May 4, 2014 2:56:16 AM | 88

The first publication was at blog +972 - U.S. post-mortem on peace talks: Israel killed them.

A suspicious accusation by Haaretz reporter Barak Ravid that Martin Indyk was the unnamed US official who leaked the information to Yedioth Ahronoth reporter Nahum Barnea.

Posted by: Oui | May 4, 2014 3:12:42 AM | 89

Oui

What right wing nationalists are against israel? From what I understand thats what unite these parties.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 4, 2014 3:41:40 AM | 90

Some mention one-state solution as more viable, but chances of that is even less possible than two-states.

The only way Israel would agree to it if they absorb all the territory and Palestinians either gone (preferably), or become 3rd rate citizens, with no equal rights. Problem with this solution would be that eventually (lets say 30-50 years later), Israel will be forced (both internally and externally) to give Palestinians equal rights, thus Jews would be effectively ruled by Palestinians. I can safely assume it would be worse for Jews than ANY other option, including war or two-states.

Therefore what we'll see for decades to come, is Israel continuing its expansion and expelling Palestinians, until (after US is gone as superpower) they'll be externally forced to accept two-state solution, internally Jews will never agree to it on their own. And as I said above, one-state is absolutely no starter for Jews.

Posted by: Harry | May 4, 2014 3:50:21 AM | 91

What is really needed is an INTIFADA in THE USA. One that clear the AIPAC scum and zionist slave politicians. Unless the USA is liberated from the grip of the zionists, then Palestine will not be free.

Posted by: Global Intifada | May 4, 2014 4:15:10 AM | 92

@ Anonymous | May 4, 2014 3:41:40 AM | 89

What unites the extreme right-wing parties is policy on anti-immigration and nationalism, seeking an eurosceptic format for EP elections. There are xenophobic and islamophobic tendensies, the latter a common base with US Zionists billionaires like Adelson, etc. All part of Israeli politics and WOT after the 9/11 attacks on the US.

The Breakthrough of Neo-Fascism in Europe: A Case of Mistaken Identity

"Jean-Marie Le Pen’s statement about the Holocaust being a historical ‘detail’, the disguised anti-Semitism and some similarities between Hitler and Le Pen in charisma and appeal have led many to see elements within the FN as fascist and the party as a threat to French democracy."

National Front party founder Jean-Marie Le Pen, was convicted of minimizing the Holocaust. You believe Marine Le Pen changed party affiliation of its supporters by a single announcement?

The pact with Wilders’ PVV is part of a larger campaign to form a “European Alliance for Freedom” of the right-wing parties and turn the parliament into a dysfunctional institution. For that they would need caucus status, requiring 25 MEP’s from 7 countries. The Le Pen-Wilders alliance is already targeting to bring into the alliance the anti-immigrant Danish People’s Party, Austria’s Freedom party of Heinz-Christian Strache, which recently won more than 20% of seats in recent national elections, and the right-wing Flemish separatists of Vlaams Belang. Le Pen also optimistically hopes for an alliance with Nigel Farage’s UKIP which has hitherto rejected such a proposal citing them to be anti-Semitic.

Posted by: Oui | May 4, 2014 4:36:35 AM | 93

Oui

Marie le pen isnt against Israel. My point is, what unifies (1 example of course, alot unifies them) these parties is their support for Israel.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 4, 2014 4:55:28 AM | 94

The Israelis would like nothing more then for the Palestinians to revert to a third intifada. Violent opposition to Israeli oppression is something the Israelis know how to deal with, i.e. even greater violence. It is non-violent resistance that Israel has trouble handling. For now the Palestinians have a few good tools for resistance. To name three: One is to continue the street demonstrations against land theft on the WB, basically mass protest against all forms of discrimination. Second, BDS. And third, the pathetic PA needs to continue pushing their rights before the UN and international criminal courts.

At this point violence will not be effective. Hopefully, the organized resistance can maintain the discipline necessary to stay on the non-violent path. As long as Israel allows public opposition to their policies (they are engaging in mass arrests but at least they are not engaging in mass killings or transfers) the only politically practical tactics available to the Palestinians are the non-violent methods summarized in the above three points.

Posted by: ToivoS | May 4, 2014 5:49:01 AM | 95

Why intifada when ICC is available?

Posted by: Anonymous | May 4, 2014 7:52:40 AM | 96

@Anonymous | 95

Why intifada when ICC is available?

ICC/ICJ/etc. are run by US and its cronies, therefore its useless as far as justice is concerned. Still Palestinians should have done it a long time ago, at least for the value of exposing once again how hypocritical West and their institutions are. Hell, Palestinians themselves would be quicker found guilty for the crimes against humanity than Israelis..

Posted by: Harry | May 4, 2014 8:08:36 AM | 97

Harry

Perhaps but remember ICJ ruled in 2003 to the benefit of palestinians.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 4, 2014 8:47:23 AM | 98

@Anonymous | 97

You mean about illegal construction of the wall? It was only advisory opinion. In other words - not worth the paper it was written on, as proven by Israel, who started building the wall few months after. ICC and ICJ will never make important binding ruling against US or its alies, if you think otherwise, how many cases of do you know? I'm not aware of any.

Posted by: Harry | May 4, 2014 9:07:51 AM | 99

harry

Yes only advisory, but still. It have an impact while west trying to deny it.
One wonder why Israel/US fear that palestinians go to the ICC if its useless?
But I also agree with you that west "own" ICC etc.

Posted by: Anonymous | May 4, 2014 9:15:08 AM | 100

next page »

The comments to this entry are closed.