Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
April 15, 2014

Obama Urges Ukraine's Military To Not Get Involved (Two Month Ago)

Obama says the U.S. urges Ukraine's military not to get involved in a conflict that must be resolved politically. He's expressing outrage about images of Ukrainian security forces firing automatic guns on Ukrainian people.

Obama says in a statement that Ukraine should respect the right of protest and that protesters must be peaceful. He's calling for dialogue to reduce tensions and address the people's grievances.

While that sounds somewhat reasonable, it is not what Obama now says about the current attack by the Ukrainian military on so far rather peaceful protesters in Donetsk oblast. He said the above two month ago while U.S. financed brutes from Maidan occupied government buildings, hailed hundreds of Molotov cocktails on policemen and stormed the parliament to stage their coup.

For a usually slick operator that Obama is such obvious double talk is pretty embarrassing.

Posted by b on April 15, 2014 at 14:10 UTC | Permalink

« previous page

@ToivoS #90:

Thanks for that JPost link. It doesn't say anymore than what is on the Kremlin's Web site, but that article brought that Web site to my attention, so I will watch it from now on. (I am still trying to figure out how to stop getting spam from the Obama White House.)

As for the Ha'aretz article, I gave a link to it in an earlier thread.

This is just me, but I see Israel in a much more positive light when I look at it from a Russian government point of view than when I look at it from the point of view of an American citizen. This is because Israel cannot interfere in Russia's internal affairs.

This is kind of free association on my part, but my intuition is that the reason that Israel appears to be signalling that it has good relations with Russia is that it is worried about how much longer the US Empire is going to last, and when the Empire falls, Israel will need other friends besides the US.

For a long time, I've thought that Israel would cease to exist once the Empire falls. I'm getting the impression that Israeli policy makers have been thinking along similar lines. Thus the positive overtures to Russia. I now think that Israel (not to mention Russia) will outlive the United States.

Posted by: Demian | Apr 16 2014 2:47 utc | 101

@crone 80:

Your link -- if you bother to read it -- says the opposite of what you are arguing.

Quote: "Specifically, the researchers found that the four main Ashkenazi founder mitochondrial types were nested within European mitochondrial lineages, not Near Eastern ones, and an analysis of more minor haplogroups indicated that an additional 40 percent of mitochondrial variation found in Ashkenazi Jews’ mitochondrial DNA was likely of European origin. The remaining variants appeared to be from the Near East or are of uncertain origin, and there was no evidence for Ashkenazi Jewish origins in the Khazar kingdom, according to the authors."

After that, there are qualifiers and dissenting opinions: In short, science is complicated, people differ within groups, and the results are not at all clear.

I find calling people by where you surmise their ancestors lived 1200 years ago quite strange. Whatever could be the point of such an act?

If you are against modern day Jews displacing Palestinians off their land, isn't the Nakba moral argument enough? Why invent imaginary pre-histories?

And if we are to invent such imaginary histories, why not for all people? And why stop at one single point in the past -- 1200 years ago? Where did their ancestors live 500 years before that, and so on. Surely, all people have ancestors tracing back eventually to the beginning of mankind.

Should we now go by calling all people by where we imagine their ancestors to have lived 1200 years ago? Are you a Thracian? Or perhaps a Fatimid, Kur, Livonian, Alanian, Pencheneg, Karakalpak, Oghuz or Kipchak?

Please tell us who you REALLY are based upon where ALL of your forebears lived 1200 years ago. Such information is essential to discussing the intricacies of global geopolitics in the 21st century.

Posted by: Al Cazar | Apr 16 2014 2:49 utc | 102

@ 101

Just ask Harvey!

Posted by: HAHA | Apr 16 2014 2:56 utc | 103

If I am not mistaken the historian Simon Shlomo answers your questions in a recently published work. But the subject is unrelated to the current blog.

Roberts has a good piece today:

Posted by: bevin | Apr 16 2014 3:00 utc | 104

This is somewhat funny: F.B.I. Video Warns of Efforts to Recruit American Students as Spies

It is quit indicative of the position the US security state finds itself in. I would describe that position as "very threatened". There are a lot of threads coming together here, social and political. One of the most obvious being this: would a generation of students without massive debts to pay be so easily enticed by foreign security services?

Don’t Be a Pawn: A Warning to Students Abroad

The United States government has released a 28-minute video about the case of Glenn Duffie Shriver, an American who took money from Chinese intelligence officers while living in Shanghai and was convicted of trying to acquire United States defense secrets for them.

The F.B.I. says it wants American students preparing to study abroad to watch the video so they will be able to recognize when they might be the targets of recruiting efforts by foreign intelligence agencies.

Posted by: guest77 | Apr 16 2014 3:07 utc | 105

The NY Times Editorial Board insulting its subscribers' intelligence:

"The Russian president claims to see chaos and threats in Kiev and Ukraine, but nobody outside Russia is buying his story..."

Add this to the FBI cited @104 and you realise that you are dealing with a ruling class that thinks that there is no limit to the number or the improbability of the lies that they spew out over us.

Posted by: bevin | Apr 16 2014 3:16 utc | 106

@105 Its hard to blame them: They get away with alot.

Posted by: Massinissa | Apr 16 2014 3:23 utc | 107

If you are perhaps referring to "The Invention of the Jewish People" By Shlomo Sand -- that is a work or social constructionism, or in this case, deconstructionism. (See Berger and Luckman) In any event, the book is misinterpreted by those who haven't read it to imply that the "Jews" are any more invented than any other "People," say, Germans or Buddhists. All Peoples, as collective identities, are invented, over time, through a process of myth-making, shared beliefs and ritual, etc.

All I am saying is that if we are to follow b's injunction that all threads should not be hijacked by endless circular off-topic discussions of "The Jews" and how they control the entire world, then we should NOT be seeing 8 posts immediately before mine (74, 79, 80, 84-88 incl., 10% of the thread) about the purported Khazarian antecedents of modern day Jews, as if that had any bearing on the current crisis in the Ukraine.

Is that clear enough?

Posted by: Al Cazar | Apr 16 2014 3:24 utc | 108

@bevin #103:

I don't think the Roberts piece is good. I think that Roberts makes the same mistake that Mike Whitney makes in his piece from the same day: thinking that Putin, and the Russian government in general, do not know what is going on when it comes to the Ukraine.

Russia and China have stupidly made these strategic mistakes, because reeling from communist failures and oppressions, they naively assumed that Washington was pure, that Washington was committed to its propagandistic self-description as the upholder of law, justice, mercy, and human rights.

Sorry, but I detect signs of senility here. Yeltsin was a corrupt alcoholic stooge, and the way that has been presented in the West is that he "naively assumed that Washington was pure". Putin is not Yeltsin. Putin made clear both in his informal press conference about the Crimea and in his speech to the Duma about the annexation of Crimea that he knows exactly what the USG is up to. Those two public appearances of Putin's do not appear to have registered any more on Roberts than they have on Whitney.

I am beginning to think that anybody who cannot speak at least either Russian or German cannot understand what is happening in the world right now. As far as I know, both Roberts and Whitney are monolingual. They are trapped in a bubble, somewhat larger than the bubble that is the Washington beltway.

Posted by: Demian | Apr 16 2014 3:33 utc | 109

OT, but interesting the Bandar Bush is no longer in charge of the Saudi Intelligence Service (nominally, certainly, I'm not sure if there is any reason to disbelieve it). Men like this generally do not "retire" though. We might ask where he is headed next.

I can't imagine it affects the situation in Ukraine very much, though we know that the Saudis were big sponsors of the Chechen terrorists.

Posted by: guest77 | Apr 16 2014 3:42 utc | 110

I'm impressed with this analysis and wanted to share it - the punchline is pretty strong, that the current plan is importing disposable "terror-proxies" (including Right Sector) to trash Ukraine:

by Jim Dean, editor of

The veterans site is one I only recently discovered in all of the Ukraine-thread links being shared around. It begins to explain (to me) how American veterans keep turning up on the side of justice in protests against the empire. They're reading this kind of truth and insightful analysis. May be useful (for what it's worth) for non-US people to get a sense of what's available for Americans to learn in-country, and outside of the MSM.

Posted by: Grieved | Apr 16 2014 3:43 utc | 111

Demian #100 This is just me, but I see Israel in a much more positive light when I look at it from a Russian government point of view

I happen to believe that Israel happens to be a typical state that pursues its own national interests. What is unusual that when it comes to Israel, the US will follow policies that are most definitely not in America's national interests. We can thank the lobby for that. We can also thank the lobby that Israel is free to pursue their own national interests. Germany or France cannot because if they defy the US, we will punish them, Israel has been indemnified from such punishment.

Posted by: ToivoS | Apr 16 2014 4:25 utc | 112

From PressTV - Haiti is experiencing riots today.

We are well overdue to see a real "Caribbean Spring". There are few people on the face of the Earth who need a change more than these. Russia should be doing what it can, along with Cuba and Venezuela, to help the people in these desperately poor and gravely exploited nations.

Posted by: guest77 | Apr 16 2014 4:28 utc | 113

Pepe Escobar talks Ukraine on ANC report *my apologies if a repost*

Around 5:00, Pepe Escobar relates a that a source told him that the Saudis may be very active in Ukraine.

Posted by: guest77 | Apr 16 2014 4:45 utc | 114

@111 States usually follow their national interest... By doing genocide on internal minorities?

Most states dont do that.

Posted by: Massinissa | Apr 16 2014 4:50 utc | 115

#114 Massinissa, my context was with respect to Israeli foreign relations with Russia. When it comes to their own internal policies I happen to think the Israelis are pursuing a suicidal course. There is the BDS movement that has the potential to destroy its relationship with the rest of the world. But that is OT, we are talking about Ukraine.

Posted by: ToivoS | Apr 16 2014 5:11 utc | 116

I think Israel's faces a bigger problem with being taken seriously by China.

That the Chinese had a state visit for Abbas was a very big deal, and they held it - if the reports were correct - with much more pomp than Netanyahu's visit. Plus to call Israel "the start up nation" - that had me laughing. I assumed there was a little joke in there from the world's oldest country to one of it's newest - a subtle little warning, perhaps, regarding the high failure rate of such endeavors.

Posted by: guest77 | Apr 16 2014 5:36 utc | 117

@110 - Grieved.. thanks, i enjoyed the article.

Posted by: james | Apr 16 2014 5:53 utc | 118

Oh, that's why CIA director in Kiev searching for missing mercenaries

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov revealed that CIA director John Brennan was in Kiev last weekend. One of his advisors told the newspaper Vzgliad that Brennan had not come to oversee the "anti-terrorist" operations conducted by the Ukrainian authorities, but to seek information and rescue twenty Greystone Ltd mercenaries of whom there has been no news.

The coup government in Kiev and its Western allies refer to the democratic political opposition as "terrorists".

Hundreds of mercenaries working for Greystone Ltd (a subsidiary of Academi, formerly Blackwater) have been present in the country since at least March 4 [1], operating within the regular Ukraine special forces.

After initially denying it, the White House acknowledged that Mr. Brennan had in fact visited Kiev over the weekend.

Posted by: ProPeace | Apr 16 2014 6:19 utc | 119

Brigade with 6 APCs Changes Sides In Ukraine

Maria Danilova

@AP reporter sees 6 combat vehicles enter Slovyansk, fly Russian flags. 1 soldier says they are Ukr 25th airborne brigade, switch to pro-Russian.

Posted by: Oui | Apr 16 2014 9:04 utc | 120

More info here.

Posted by: Oui | Apr 16 2014 9:04 utc | 121

tony_hartin ‏@tony_hartin 26m
Not a good idea sending troops you havent fed for weeks to go and fight their own countryfolk on behalf of oligarchs #Ukraine #Kramatorsk
Retweeted Steiner (@Steiner1776):

#Kramatorsk Defecting #Ukraine troops: "We haven't had anything decent to eat for weeks. #Kiev has forgotten us."

Retweeted РУССКАЯ ВЕСНА (@afdqualitywork):

@SenJohnMcCain Pls send US weapons to #Ukraine so that #Kiev soldiers can defect with them, like today #Kramatorsk !

Retweeted Anatoly Karlin (@akarlin88):

Kiev kindly helping the People's Republic of Donetsk build an army by sending it troops that defect on the spot. #fb

Retweeted Nina Byzantina (@NinaByzantina):

Pro-Maidan Hromadske & liberal TV Rain already lie about tanks that switched sides as being from #Russia. #Kramatorsk

Retweeted Steiner (@Steiner1776):

Urgent! #Ukraine 8 more ukrainian APC's parked outside #Kramatorsk getting surrounded by people via @lindseyhilsum

Retweeted Ukraine Reporter (@StateOfUkraine):

#Video: A number of #Ukrainian soldiers and APCs defected in #Kramatorsk #Ukraine (will be getting more info)

Don DeBar
12 minutes ago · Edited
CUT OFF MID-SENTENCE ON CNN: Just saw reporter Phil Black in south east Ukraine reporting that the images CNN was selling as Russian invaders in tanks were claimed by Russian media to be Ukrainian defectors who were sent to suppress, but ended up joining, protestors. He was cut off in mid-sentence - 'we seem to have lost the feed...'

Posted by: brian | Apr 16 2014 9:58 utc | 122

Russia 24 quoted the words of acting President Turchinov: "I will not rest until I erase that city from the face of the earth" (Sloviansk)
Россия 24 цитировала слова и.о. президента Турчинова:
"Я не успокоюсь,пока не сотру с лица земли этот город".(Славянск)

what will he erase it with? i recall when a misquote of president Ahmadinejads about wiping israel off the map led top paroxyms of outrage by western regimes and media

Posted by: brian | Apr 16 2014 10:27 utc | 123

At RT: 'Odessa declare itself sovereignty'.

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 16 2014 10:34 utc | 124

the tanks sent by the Maidanite pro-NATO Junta to crush the population in Sloviansk joined the this video the tanks are enternaining the local population and having some fun ha ha ha

Posted by: brian | Apr 16 2014 10:45 utc | 125

The Russian flags on Ukrainian Armored Personnel Carriers (APCs) were a stratagem, Kiev says.

Yeah right, kiev have lost but now they try to change the reality.

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 16 2014 12:02 utc | 126

Well, looky here. What do we have? Imagine that. Bibi and Putin in the same corner. Putin is controlled by the.....I won't say it. And here you all thought the…I won't say it…controlled America. Wrong.

US 'surprised' Israel did not support UN vote on Ukraine's territorial integrity

Amidst one of the deepest East-West crises since the Cold War over Russia and the Ukraine, the US expressed surprise that Israel did not support last month’s UN vote on Ukraine’s territorial integrity.

A day earlier, in Washington, US State Department Spokesperson Jen Psaki said the US was “surprised” that Israel did not support a UN vote in March following Russia’s annexation of Crimea.

Psaki was responding to a question regarding a recent report in the Israeli media that the US was infuriated with Israel because of its lack of a position on the Russia-Ukraine crisis. She said this was not how the US would characterize its reaction to Israel on this issue.

I'm not surprised. It's to be expected. Bibi and Israel understand and support the annexing of another country's land despite the admonishing criticism from the rest of the world. Bibi said to Putin, "you have your Ukraine and we'll have our Palestine." Friendship is a beautiful thing, isn't it? People have been misinterpreting biblical prophecy all along. When the Jews return to Zion doesn't mean Israel in Palestine, it means Israel in Russia. Russia is Zion. Now it all makes sense.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Apr 16 2014 12:39 utc | 127

@107. You are right. Benedict Anderson calls them "imagined communities."
Your second paragraph sends shudders of recollection down my spine as I recall the madness which, until so recently, infected these threads.

The point about Roberts is that he speaks for a certain school of opinion in the United States. It is indicative of the corruption in the US governmental system that this, formerly prominent ideologist for capitalism, writes as he does. I also find his reporting on the governmental manipulation of commodity markets interesting.
As to your theories relating to language there must be a more subtle way of telling us that you speak more than one language.

Posted by: bevin | Apr 16 2014 13:16 utc | 128

12:51 GMT:
The Donetsk Region has defined the questions to be put on the May 11 referendum, stated regional Councilor Irina Popova. There will be just two of them:

1) Do you support the creation of an independent Donetsk Republic?

2) Of which state should a Donetsk Republic be part of: Ukraine or the Russian Federation?

The Central Election Commission of Donetsk Region has already been allocated a headquarters building next to the regional government administration and is currently forming the list of members.

12:36 GMT:
Around 60 soldiers manning Ukrainian armored vehicles sent to Kramatorsk to carry out military operations against anti-government protesters have switched sides and joined the local self-defense forces, RIA Novosti reports, citing the self-defense forces.

“We’ve seen here that these are neither separatists nor terrorists, but ordinary local residents, with whom we are not going to go into battle,” one of the defecting soldiers said.

All of the troops who decided to side with the self-defense forces come from Dnepropetrovsk, the next-door region to Donetsk.

Posted by: brian | Apr 16 2014 13:20 utc | 129

@all banned "Hans" will ban any other people who can not stop abusing this blog with their anti-jewish phantasies. May that come as "Kazar" discussion or whatever. Cut it out.

Posted by: b | Apr 16 2014 13:23 utc | 130

the real bad guys: 12:00 GMT:
Self-defense forces in Slavyansk say there’s fighting going on between their people and unknown gunmen at one of the checkpoints.

“Unknown gunmen have arrived at one of the check-points from the side of the livestock feed factory, at the turn-off Izyum. They opened fire on peaceful observers at the checkpoint. A group of self-defense personnel have arrived to help the observers. Fighting is going on,” the self-defense forces’ coordinator told Interfax.

Posted by: brian | Apr 16 2014 13:25 utc | 131

February 26, 2014. The “Kiev regime” authorized the storming of the Supreme Council of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea building. The attack was perpetrated by activists from right-wing Ukrainian groups (Pravyi Sektor), insurgents from the Al-Qaeda terrorist network, Hizb ut-Tahrir, and Crimean Tatar-Wahhabist sympathizers. As a result of a massive attack civilians defending the administrative building were killed.

Posted by: Cu Chulainn | Apr 16 2014 13:50 utc | 132 The veterans site is one I only recently discovered in all of the Ukraine-thread links being shared around. It begins to explain (to me) how American veterans keep turning up on the side of justice in protests against the empire. They're reading this kind of truth and insightful analysis. May be useful (for what it's worth) for non-US people to get a sense of what's available for Americans to learn in-country, and outside of the MSM. Posted by: Grieved | Apr 15, 2014 11:43:06 PM | 111
Personally, I avoid all the so-called Veterans Today writers like the plague, and you will find most of them on Press TV, too, where they (ahem) peddle their conspiracy theories...

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Apr 16 2014 13:53 utc | 133

80:Well can you explain how a Semitic people like the Jews don't look like their Semitic brethren,the Arabs?Either they had genetic engineering in the Middle Ages,or they really aren't descendants of the ancient Hebrews.Why do your panties get in a wad over this obviously logical speculation?Blood ties?Doesn't fit the Zionist agenda?
My wife went to a seder on Passover;(My son in law is Jewish)She said the only thing that was expressed was blood hatred against the Egyptians with their plagues of lice,frogs,pestilence,etc.Farrahkan was on to something.No lambs blood on my door,thank you Jesus.

Posted by: dahoit | Apr 16 2014 14:11 utc | 134

88;There you go again,most Zionist scholars(ho ho)don't recognize the link eh?Aint it wonderful to control info?God bless the internet.

Posted by: dahoit | Apr 16 2014 14:14 utc | 135

For a long time, I've thought that Israel would cease to exist once the Empire falls. I'm getting the impression that Israeli policy makers have been thinking along similar lines. Thus the positive overtures to Russia. I now think that Israel (not to mention Russia) will outlive the US. Posted by: Demian | Apr 15, 2014 10:47:33 PM | 101
That's an extremely valid point, and a legitimate one to make even in the rather careful context we are trying to maintain here, because it is a fundamental necessity for anyone who wants to make any sense at all of current geopolitics to look carefully at the USraeli relationship, which is obviously characterised by increasingly blatant public contempt for the US on the part of Israel. And this contempt is becoming increaasingly blatant and public in synchronisation with the actual exhaustion of the USA as a credible global player. But I would argue that the China-Israel axis is the one to really watch, opaque though it may seem to be.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Apr 16 2014 14:41 utc | 136


Are you going to ban dahoit, as you did mumblebrain, or should I respond with unemotional scientific rigour?

Posted by: Al Cazar | Apr 16 2014 14:53 utc | 137


You have lost many fine commenters over the years because you have put up with the incessant spamming which doesn't even attempt to masquerade as reasoned argument.

By the way, for our armchair anthropologists here, the modern day descendants of the Khazars, as best as can be ascertained, are the Tatars (same derivation), not the Jews.

Posted by: Al Cazar | Apr 16 2014 15:01 utc | 138

The Republic of Odessa
theres an epidemic or republikitis! all flowing out of the illconsidered neonazi coup

Posted by: brian | Apr 16 2014 15:06 utc | 139

brian 139

Wonderful news, when will west understand that they are the losers of this conflict?

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 16 2014 15:21 utc | 140

Will Russia intervene? - OAB at 2.

Hopefully, No.

So far it seems determined not to take the bait. (i.e. intervene and then face a some kind of strong response.)

First, from a sort of rational pov, taking over E Ukr. is not in the interest of Russia. It would be a desperate and terrible burden, financially, and would do nothing except shift the border between Russia and the West somewhat to the West - not a good situation. Plus there would be many problems internal to the ‘region’ of E Ukraine, including objections, possibly violent, from those who are not pro-Russia.

Second, seeing Putin as a canny calculator, all he needs to do is step back, not encourage or discourage Eastern separatism (I don’t think it is as strong as portrayed, but that is just me) as a perpetual thorn in the side of the new Gvmt. in Kiev which in any case is in hopeless straits. One extra problem it absolutely cannot deal with in a reasonable manner. Clowns.

However, if the situations slips into a rumbling civil war, he may be forced, for his own pride, and internal image, power, etc. to keep a strong hand (his internal supporters have become more nationalistic, Russians first and so on and on, the immoral West, etc., partly through his own propaganda) to intervene in some way. Right now his best option - as he has said himself several times - is a sort of Federation, with more autonomy for ‘regions’, with part(s) turned more to Russia, others elsewhere, etc.

This would actually be a way of keeping up the very shaky past status quo: Ukr. as one country but ‘finlandized’ on the face of it until recent events, with its internal stresses masked over by a sort of ersatz democracy, which never really took.

A Federation would get rid of, de-fang, both hegemonic and separatist elements.

I’m not hopeful though of such a consensual response from the various actors - it would have to be imposed by foreign powers (Russia, West, UN, etc.) and agreed to by Kiev.

Kiev will of course bow down if given ultimatums or threatened. They are in a horribly weak position and don’t have any punch, military, police, political, financial, social glamor, etc., yet now that the divide-to-rule schema is in place, and everyone is riled up to the max, who knows.

When central control breaks down, as it has in Ukr. new forces come into play.

I think in Ukr. these are - besides the well known paramilitary groups like Pravy Sektor etc. who are deemed respectable and on the front stage - simply bandits and Mafia types who see opportunities at least for a chunk of local power.

As well as foot soldiers without guns and propagandists who are paid for, and under the control of, oligarchs (brilliant entrepreneurs in EU speak), that is those who have economic control. This aspect is not treated in the news, and I’m just guessing.

Posted by: Noirette | Apr 16 2014 15:23 utc | 141

Noirette, I think Putin is an extremely astute tactician. He could hardly have worked his way up even to the rank of KGB Lt-Col otherwise, even though Lt-Col is only a junior staff rank, because the cards were stacked against him in those days. This was because he is a devout orthodox christian, and I don't doubt that he always has been. In those days, this would have been regarded as a serious indication of political and possibly even psychiatric unsuitability.

Anyway, as an astute tactician, he will be bearing this in mind: at any stage in the forthcoming escalations, he will be accused anyway, by the entire mighty wurlitzer of the west and pro-west media, and also by officials including government ministers from multiple western countries and characters such as Rasmussen and Breedlove, of having already initiated that escalation himself, because that is what they do: accuse the opponent of doing exactly what they are currently doing themselves.

So, given that the west will proceed with its escalation anyway, on the basis of these false accusations, he should assume that as a fait accompli on their part, which means that it makes no difference in terms of international diplomacy, beyond a certain point, whether Russia escalates in that particular way or not, so they might as well do it anyway. Sorry about all the long sentences.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Apr 16 2014 15:34 utc | 142

It's interesting to watch the Western media dealing with the Russian flags on the APCs. Yahoo's headline started out trying to make it look like the Russian invasion had begun.....they did modify it a bit later and talk about the 'possibility of Ukrainian soldiers changing sides'.

Posted by: dh | Apr 16 2014 15:40 utc | 143

What if they declared War, and nobody joined up!

A video of how those six Ukranian APCs were dealt with:

Posted by: El Sid | Apr 16 2014 15:44 utc | 144

BBC also. Flagging their tanks/APCs as pro-Russian was a deception operation that was probably discussed with Brennan. I don't assume the Kiev goons would dare try it without Brennan's approval, which is why they needed him on the spot, to discuss it. They couldn't risk any more phone tapping scandals like Toria's "Fuck the EU" again. It's all backfired, because subsequently, about half a dozen APC crews actually did defect and started flying the Russian colours for real.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Apr 16 2014 15:47 utc | 145

@ 133 rowan berkeley.. interesting. do you say that because none of it can be substantiated? so many websites are full of conjecture that can't be substantiated.

ps - i agree with your reasoning @136 and 142.

Posted by: james | Apr 16 2014 16:08 utc | 146


Dont you understand that they are talking bs?
There is no "deception operation" these people surrendered to the resistance.

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 16 2014 16:20 utc | 147

@145 CNN informs us that the APCs were 'seized by militants'.

Posted by: dh | Apr 16 2014 16:20 utc | 148

Well, I was just pondering exactly that question. I have been working so hard all day on this stuff that I have visited probably upwards of a hundred different web pages, or that's what it feels like. So I shall have to try to figure out where I got the claim that the vehicles were false-flagged at the outset. I certainly saw a claim that Kiev troops were wearing St George's ribbons in order to deceive the population into thinking they were deserters when they were not. The claim argued that they were false-flagged in this way so that in theory at least they could penetrate into the interior of the rebel-held areas. So I shall try to hunt down these two issues and come back with the sources that I saw. I'm quite prepared to believe they were confused and incorrect, either partially or totally. Another thing I could do is raise the question on the Saker comments threads, and see what he says, because he is probably the best person to sort out these conflicting stories and claims.

#145: If the stories about false flagged individual troops (the ribbons) or false flagged vehicles (Russian flags) were in fact disinfo from Kiev, then I don't think it would do much harm. It is absolutely essential in such a situation to keep checking and rechecking every uniformed individual, at least until they surrender their weapons. Being confused by stories about false flagged individuals or vehicles would not make the necessary process of identifying and verifying everything for local security, any more arduous or divisive than it would have been in any case. At least, that's how it would seem to me. But sorry to all if I have dragged in something unfounded.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Apr 16 2014 16:39 utc | 149

@149 I tend to think these guys....militants, demonstrators, soldiers, defectors, whatever.....all know each other very well. Probably went to school together. Worked together, intermarried etc. Makes it hard to get a good old civil war going.

Posted by: dh | Apr 16 2014 16:43 utc | 150


One of men aboard the vehicles said they were Ukrainian soldiers who had defected to the pro-Russian side. If that's true, it raises the spectre of an uprising by defected Ukrainian forces in eastern regions of the country. But a senior lawmaker denied any defections had taken place, instead insisting the men on the vehicles were Ukrainian soldiers conducting a false-flag operation to move about freely.

Posted by: kyria | Apr 16 2014 16:47 utc | 151

Seriously, if they were undercover, as it were, would it make any sense to announce that publicly? And if one is lying to cover a defection, doesn't the very fact that it wouldn't make any sense to give your men away essentially mean that your lying? I figured Brennan would have been smart enough to tell them to say they were really RF invading troops smuggled in pretending to be defectors. Not at all consistent with available facts but still a more plausible lie.

Posted by: Lysander | Apr 16 2014 16:57 utc | 152

"This is all part of a great big plan!" or better, "Be vewwy vewwy quiet...I'm hunting wabbits..." spoken by that [expletive deleted] junta lawmaker, in his best Elmer Fudd voice.

Seriously, this dude has a bright future ahead of him, now that Chemical Ali and Joe Isuzu have sluffed off this mortal coil.

Just not in Ukraine.

Posted by: sid_finster | Apr 16 2014 16:58 utc | 153

Rowan at 142, yes, i agree, and anyway Putin is canny as i said...

What is interesting to me is that all the parties and commentators are leaving out economic interests and their ‘forces’ on the ground and how they act. (And they do, I am sure.)

Except in a globalist, generalist, international sense as in energy in the shape of gas (gas bills due to Russia, pipelines to Europe, etc.) which has nothing or little to do with the many ‘oligarch’ their cos. and foreign investment.

see for ex. this:

which comes from this site:

Posted by: Noirette | Apr 16 2014 17:13 utc | 154

dh @150
You have a very good point. And it is one that the Kiev junta fans probably do not understand, for two reasons.
The first and less important is that many of the "ukrainians" involved in Maidan were either expatriate fascists returning from the "west" or, in the case of the Galicians, from Polish areas which had been separated from Russia, culturally and politically, for centuries. To these people the Russians are hereditary enemies and Russian speaking either treason, among intellectuals, or a sign of the political irrelevance of the "dark people",from former serf backgrounds with their "folk" cultures.
Sadly, one or two posters here talk with disdain about these latter.

To people in these categories nationality is something cemented together by inherited mythology-tales learned at the knees of parents- rather than shared experience and relationships with places and people. To these ideologues it would be axiomatic that Ukrainians would wish to fight Russians if given the chance in a military expedition to the east, because Russians are hated. Equally, given the authoritarianism of these fascists, soldiers, having been given orders by their "superiors" (educated men with American friends) would be expected to carry out their instructions without thought or question.

What these events show is that the coup was an inch deep in the population, a flash flood in which youthful rebellion, frustration with corrupt oligarchies, the impunity offered by NATO sponsorship, plenty of money and a hard core of expatriate, Polish-Lithuanian state professional organisers and thugs temporarily imposed the coup junta on Ukraine.

As soon as it succeeded it began to fall apart: the people of Kiev realised that bad though the frying pan was, it was better than the fire. The US puppets couldn't wait to show their "courage" by attacking the people whose power alone could sustain them and the fascists were exposed as completely ignorant of their own country, unable to understand what people wanted and how much they could get away with. As to the fascists from the Right Sectors, presented with a perfect opportunity to demonstrate their courage and military prowess they have...sent in the army, which, almost certainly regards them as weird fanatics with whom they have much less in common than the plain people of Donbas, Odessa and pretty well everywhere else in the country.

The best thing would be to have country wide elections as soon as possible-perhaps for a Constituent Assembly to discuss the Constitution. My guess is that Svoboda and its friends would be revealed to be a small and nasty rump with support only from wayward backwaters and neighbourhoods in which billionaires are thick on the ground.

Posted by: bevin | Apr 16 2014 17:18 utc | 155

"RT reports that most of the 60 young men who joined the militia in Kramatorsk are from Dnipropetrovsk. It's surprising that Kiev would send them. But if boys from the east won't kill civilians, western thugs and American mercenaries will." (Saker, comment from Tom Garrett)

RT's story about the Kramatorsk surrender is here, and one of the things it says is this:

Some of the APCs were filmed flying Russian flags in support of the locals. Kiev eventually confirmed that six APCs were taken away in Kromatorsk but claimed that they were “captured by the extremists.” Earlier, coup-imposed Kiev officials dismissed the news as “fake” and even claimed that by raising Russian flags the troops “infiltrated” the areas “controlled by Russian Army units and separatists.”

So Anon at #147 was correct, and I was unknowingly repeating disinfo. My attention must have been completely elsewhere, because usually I take some pride in suspecting everything of being disinfo, so I should have thought more carefully before bringing that one up. I hang my head in shame and withdraw the claims unreservedly. Sorry, people!

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Apr 16 2014 17:41 utc | 156


We need to have some 'independent republics' set up in USA states...

Maybe start with Texas, its not like they havnt been independent before.

Posted by: Massinissa | Apr 16 2014 17:54 utc | 157

Oops, I meant 139

Posted by: Massinissa | Apr 16 2014 17:54 utc | 158

@155 "from former serf backgrounds with their "folk" cultures."

Which sort of strikes me as ironic considering that serfdom came to Russia from Poland...

Posted by: Massinissa | Apr 16 2014 18:00 utc | 159

This may or may not be relevant but the Euromaidan site mentioned here last week on, that has the call to "flatten Belgorad" etc, well I put in a complaint to quoting the offending texts and lo and behold, a couple of days later, all my accounts (for spam, website stats, twitter and rss feeds) stopped working. It looks suspiciously like my accounts have been hacked. We'll see what Wordpress has to say.

Posted by: William Bowles | Apr 16 2014 18:17 utc | 160

Rowan 156

No problem, takes a man to admit that you were not right. I myself believed in that kievpropaganda for a second too.

Posted by: Anonymous | Apr 16 2014 18:20 utc | 161

Jesus H Christ, I just looked Odessa on the map. When the protests were only in Kharkov and Donetsk and other russia bordering regions, I thought that in a few days Kiev would crack down and everything would be over.

But no, now the protests span the entire width of east and south ukraine.

Posted by: Massinissa | Apr 16 2014 18:22 utc | 162

We can extend bernhard's satire a bit, then: "Russians sweep into Moldova - independent Ukraine (ie Kiev) is now landlocked and surrounded - look at this map" (unveils large map on studio wall with a huge red arrow originating in Moldova and bifurcating into two, one sweeping west towards Bratislava and one sweeping south towards Bucharest) - "They're bent on recreating what Winston Churchill called The Iron Curtain." Enough emphasis on the last three words, and everyone starts to shudder. Then they launch into retro footage of how wonderfully "menacing" life was "at the Height Of The Cold War."

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Apr 16 2014 18:44 utc | 163

"...serfdom came to Russia from Poland." Desperately boosting grain production, and cutting local consumption, in order to feed the burgeoning cities and fleets of the west where modern imperialism was being established.

Posted by: bevin | Apr 16 2014 19:10 utc | 164

The place I got my disinfo about false flag ops, I have now realised, was's live updates, specifically this one, which I failed to read with actual attention, as my eyes just rolled down the page too fast:

11:32 GMT: The Russian flags on Ukrainian APCs were a stratagem, Kiev says. According to the acting head of the Batkivshchina Party, Sergey Sobolev, the Ukrainian military raised Russian flags on their vehicles on purpose, to fool the Donetsk region’s self-defense squads and thus be able to get into areas under the control of protesters. “Those were our military units using guerilla methods of intervention,” Sobolev said, citing the acting Defense Minister. “Very soon, in two to three hours, this maneuver is going to be disclosed, and you’ll understand that it was actually a breakthrough which our units thus carried out.”

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Apr 16 2014 20:23 utc | 165

Odessa is very much a Russian (and a Russian Jewish) city. Sort of its own little world, with its own dialect and characters.

Posted by: sid_finster | Apr 16 2014 21:56 utc | 166

thanks for the response rowan berkeley. good call on anonymous's part regarding that info..i too agree with dh in their comment @150..

Posted by: james | Apr 16 2014 22:12 utc | 167

"russiaphobia - the centerpiece of global stupidity." - good quote from someone else..

Posted by: james | Apr 16 2014 22:20 utc | 168


You are forgive.

Now, forgive yourself.

Your posts much appreciated by me. Hope you survive b's childishness.

Posted by: b4real | Apr 17 2014 0:47 utc | 169

@168 - that was from a recent RT's "CrossTalk" I think?

Posted by: guest77 | Apr 17 2014 0:54 utc | 170

Posted by: Massinissa | Apr 16, 2014 2:22:35 PM | 162 But no, now the protests span the entire width of east and south ukraine.

Yes oh yes, that is the price a government pays when they demonstrate they have lost control over one area. The Chinese have saying for this situation: 'the emperor's mandate from heaven has been lost'. Once that realization sets in the rebellion spreads. Over two thousand years of Chinese history, dynasties have collapsed about every two hundred or so years.

Posted by: ToivoS | Apr 17 2014 1:09 utc | 171

@170 - guest77- yes.. i listened to that 26 minute interview of the 4 guys..

Posted by: james | Apr 17 2014 5:30 utc | 172

@99 I ended up on the e-mailing list of a slew of wingnut pseudo-blogs (Minuteman News, Godfather Politics, etc. etc. ad nauseam), new ones of which seem to be being created all the time(I assume there's a lot of funding out there for such things). I've tried to direct them all to the shitcan, but some still get through and I can't help responding from time to time. I try to represent the point of view of an ordinary working American with Christian values - ironically, the very values these sites pay lip service to while pouring forth an endless torrent of racism, xenophobia, and religious intolerance. Thanks for the encouragement.

Posted by: Snake Arbusto | May 12 2014 12:09 utc | 173

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