Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 07, 2014

Where Is Obama's Off-Ramp In This Escalation Spiral?

Obama points to the "the path of de-escalation" in Ukraine by saying:

"Let international monitors into all of Ukraine, including Crimea, to to ensure the rights of all Ukrainians are being respected, including ethnic Russians. Begin consultations between the government of Russia and Ukraine, with the participation of the international community.

"Russia would maintain its basing rights in Crimea, provided that it abides by its agreements and that it respects Ukraine's sovereignty and territory integrity.

How please could a U.S. president guarantee a contract that Ukraine would have to agree upon? Obama values "self determination" and "democracy" of a country 10,000 miles away from his so much that he is dictating what that country would have to agree upon in this or that case? Russia would be nuts to take any "guarantee" from Obama.

Obama wishes de-escalation so much that he ordered sanctions on Russian individuals and their money and pressed on European countries to do the same. Russia will retaliate with similar measures. Obama sends additional fighter jets to Lithuania and Poland and send an additional destroyer into the Black Sea. Russia will beef up its western forces. The puppet the Obama administration installed in Kiev added to the "de-escalation"by inviting NATO to Kiev and by promising to sign parts of an EU association agreement even before new elections in the Ukraine can take place. Polls have shown that there is no Ukrainian majority for either. Countering the Russian parliament votes to accept the Crimea into its federation.

If Obama and his puppet "Yuk" stay on this "path of de-escalation" the U.S. will be at DEFCON-1 in just a few weeks.

Obama said he would offer Russia an "off-ramp". But that "off-ramp" includes his demand to Russia to recognize the unelected, illegitimate puppet government in Kiev. Russia will surely never agree to that. Tit for tat will thereby continue. Where is Obama's own off-ramp in this escalation spiral?

Posted by b on March 7, 2014 at 15:46 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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According to Rebel Radio (BBC) Russia has warned EU that "any sanctions it imposes will not go unanswered." Taking into account that the financial crisis which sent Euro countries broke, AND the current Ukraine bull-fest, were both Made in America, it's only a matter of time until EU citizens start lynching the politicians who refuse to sober up.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Mar 8 2014 1:10 utc | 101

@99 wrong

the EU and US regimes are safe from any rebellion: these are orchestrated by Washington

Posted by: brian | Mar 8 2014 1:16 utc | 102

Posted by: brian | Mar 7, 2014 8:16:58 PM | 100

Some EU economies are already on the brink of collapse. A lot of the unemployed EU citizens are already looking for someone to blame. Politicians who are making their lives tougher, for purely US reasons, are going to be asked why they are listening to Obama instead of the people who pay their wages?
It'll be a rhetorical question. They already know the an$wer...

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Mar 8 2014 1:34 utc | 103

There might be more than one ✡n$wer

Posted by: brb | Mar 8 2014 1:39 utc | 104

@Nora You can't believe everything you read on the internet, you know. I wouldn't trust brb particularly. And I certainly wouldn't apologize because someone has claimed to "have done more" than you on the internet. You have no idea what this person did or did not do. And I would err on the side of "did not" in this case.

Surely someone who spends more time attacking bevin, Saul Alinsky, and Edward Snowden yet has few if anything to say against the real evil doers in the world (the Ukrainian NeoNazis and the CIA to name two he hasn't a word against) is considerably at suspect of having bad faith iMO.

...

Mr. Pragma, bevin hasn't attacked you personally. And no, Russia cannot "do as it pleases" in Ukraine or else there would not be a bevy of IMF clones and anti-Russian neoNazis ready to sink their fangs into the country and her people as a shitstain such as Victoria Nuland hands out cookies.

The fact is that things are very dangerous. Though the Russians are making - once again - a principled stand, the people of the Ukriane are in the same danger the people of Syria are in. And though, like Syria, the Russian support has probably insured that the country hasn't completely gone up in flames, there is still a potential. No, the US cannot win - but they can engage in a policy of sheer destruction.

It does no good to speak of world events as if Russia is playing a game of RISK against an empty chair. There are millions and millions of lives at stake. Millions who face the horrors that it should be the responsibility of every man and woman on the face of the earth to end. And if that means writing letters and writing comments on blogs, then that is a good start until people are ready to go into the streets.

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 8 2014 1:45 utc | 105

Now guest, not everyone behaves like you.

Just because you might be dishonest is no reason to go projecting your pathology onto everyone else.

Tempting though it may be for you to believe that the whole world resembles the inside of your head, it probably ain't so

Posted by: brb | Mar 8 2014 1:52 utc | 106

I find the idea that bevin "hates Poles and Ukrainians" absolutely ridiculous.

Bevin has been here for I have no idea how many years. And his philosophy and ideals have been made abundantly clear. And hate doesn't seem to be figured in at all - unless it is hate for war, bigotry, and exploitation.

But of course that hardly needs to be said because people know bevin here - brb, not so much (though I'm beginning to suspect we all know him quite well...).

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 8 2014 1:54 utc | 107

One only has to read his comments on Ukrainians and Soviets to see the hatred

Posted by: brb | Mar 8 2014 1:56 utc | 108

The only thing I'm tempted to believe is that you are mightily full of shit.

Now you're reduced to browbeating well meaning people by inventing fictions about yourself?

Of all the pathetic things you've done, this is surely the most pathetic of all.

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 8 2014 1:58 utc | 109

@103 Thank you, guest77. But believe me, I don't feel out-classed by not having organized a soccer riot! ;~)

And I wasn't so much falling for his bait as trying to set out just how bad things really are here and genuinely asking for suggestions, while swatting a fly.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 8 2014 1:59 utc | 110

lol, and to think we gave you a chance.

You're completely free from hate, I'm sure. You certainly haven't shown any for the CIA, the Israelis, or the neoNazis, have you. Not once!

You little zio-nazi angel, you

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 8 2014 2:01 utc | 111

Somebody called "Nobody" posted this a short while ago

@bevin,I always enjoyed reading you but not lately since you departed from your very objective and fine analysis and embraced a path of rancor.

So don't pretend no one else has noticed the hatred.

Posted by: brb | Mar 8 2014 2:01 utc | 112

Well theres a lie right there. Ive made plenty of comments referencing neo nazis the cia and even one or two mentioning Israelis

As I said guest, just because you lie about things when it suits you, does not mean every one else lies like you do.

Posted by: brb | Mar 8 2014 2:03 utc | 113

Hahaha - norah you demanded an answer to you q, and i gave you one.

Its not the answer you expected, obviously.

Im still curious to hear what YOU have done. So far nothing from what i can see, desite all the posing

Posted by: brb | Mar 8 2014 2:05 utc | 114

I didn't say that everything Russia can do would make sense or be in anyones (incl. Russias) best interest. Neither did I say that Russia will do whatever they unilaterally please to do.

All I said that was that Russia *can* do whatever they please - in the sense that fucking nobody could stop them doing it.

And frankly, that concept shouldn't look strange to anyone here. After all, it's zusas declared policy guideline and what they actually did in many countries. And for one simple reason: They could. Simple as that.

The whole bullshit Bingo, excitement, and anger right now is, at least to a large degree, based on the simple fact that zusa and its colonies - this time on the receiving end - find *absolutely inacceptable* what they have been doing since decades.

And that although Russia did not at all abuse their position of nearly absolute power but, in fact, stuck way closer to the path of law, international agreements and treaties, and even ukraines interests than zusa ever even considered for themselves.

And the only - and I mean fucking ONLY - reason zusa didn't, doesn't and won't resort to military aggression is that that they can't.

zusas current situation and the noises it makes are akin to, to put it somewhat funnily, Monty Pythons famous norwegian blue parrot sketch with the zusa proponents taking the salesmans role and zusas "power" being the blue norvegian.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 8 2014 2:07 utc | 115

103) Try talking to Eliza for the experience, if there are generic or nonsensical answers when you get too complicated for them, you are talking to a sock puppet.

The snipers now made it to AP and they talked to the actual health minister and he confirms the doctor. The Daily Telegraph is a disinformation tool (like Der Spiegel). However, he blames the Russians which is stupid as they will have more tapes.

The government's new health minister — a doctor who helped oversee medical treatment for casualties during the protests — told The Associated Press that the similarity of bullet wounds suffered by opposition victims and police indicates the shooters were trying to stoke tensions on both sides and spark even greater violence, with the goal of toppling Yanukovych.

"I think it wasn't just a part of the old regime that (plotted the provocation), but it was also the work of Russian special forces who served and maintained the ideology of the (old) regime," Health Minister Oleh Musiy said.

Russians seem to be playing a game of "everything you can do I can do better" and activated Serbian Tschetniks and Russian Ultra Nationalists.

Let's face it this is no longer the Soviet Union.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 8 2014 2:07 utc | 116

For someone so filled with hate that they repeatedly come here to do nothing but snipe at well meaning people, destroy conversation (and eventually this great blog itself), has all the stench of John Kerry's "one doesn't invade countries on trumped up pretexts" hypocrisy.

All of our hate put together doesn't even come close to the hate you have for everything good in this world. And certainly, if there is any justice, the hate you feel when you look in the mirror.

But on to something interesting, not hounding another pathetic, IP address changing sockpuppet. I just want to make sure a well meaning person such as Nora doesn't have to take your pathetic garbage at face value.

...

This Week's "Comment" with George Galloway

http://www.presstv.ir/Program/353628.html

EU imposes asset freeze on Ukrainians

The European Union has imposed an assets freeze on 18 Ukrainians accused of misusing the country’s state funds.

The EU said the sanctions, decided on Wednesday, target people "identified as responsible" for allegedly embezzling Ukrainian state funds and will apply for an initial 12 months.

In its official legal journal, published on Thursday, the 28-nation bloc revealed the names of the 18 people, which included former high-ranking ministers and officials from Ukraine.

The country’s ousted president, Viktor Yanukovych, along with his son, former prime minister, interior minister, justice minister, prosecutor general, and security services chief were included in the list.


“We are freezing assets across the EU on 18 Ukrainians suspected of misappropriating Ukrainian state funds,” British Chancellor George Osborne said in a statement on his Twitter account on Wednesday.

Political crisis erupted in Ukraine in November 2013, when Yanukovych refrained from signing an Association Agreement with the European Union in favor of closer ties with Russia.

The Ukrainian parliament removed the president from power last month and named Oleksandr Turchynov, the legislature’s speaker, as the Eastern European country’s interim president.

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 8 2014 2:09 utc | 117

How does you telling lies make anything better?

Posted by: brb | Mar 8 2014 2:12 utc | 118

I'll tell you what Nora hasn't done - she hasn't come on this blog and lied about herself just to pretend she is better than someone. So no matter what she has or hasn't done, she hasn't done that.

lol. Tell me, is your pathetic little world round, or are you going to fall off the edge eventually?

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 8 2014 2:13 utc | 119

lol, and to think we gave you a chance.

Lol wut?

Are you on drugs or something?

Posted by: brb | Mar 8 2014 2:14 utc | 120

How do you know "norah" has not lied? Your crystal ball told you I suppose

So far shes claimed to be some sort of organising genius but when asked for details, after demanding same, clams up completely. Looks like a liar to me,

Then in jumps another liar, yourself, to defend by lying repeatedly like it was going out of style.

You and your friend norah were made for each other by the looks of it.

"Hysterical hissy-fitt" is probably the most accurate description of your contribution so far

Posted by: brb | Mar 8 2014 2:21 utc | 121

What are you, a parole officer? Get lost you jackass.

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 8 2014 2:25 utc | 122

So what it looks like is Russia may have "won" Crimea while the US-UK-EU-Israel have put their currently-favorite oligarchs in power in Ukraine, and extracted their gold, courtesy some lovely Neo-Nazi thugs, US and IDF special forces and, now, Tatars (coming next, jihadis?), while Russophiles in the east and south are doing their best to keep a low profile, and thus stay alive. The Crimean vote is March 16 (hopefully they have the lists, and there won't be any black-op shenanigans -- except, of course, there will), and Ukrainian pensions will be cut in April -- but what recourse, really, DO the rest of the people have at this point?

Posted by: Nora | Mar 8 2014 2:25 utc | 123

120 no just someone watching you lying repeatedly

Posted by: brb | Mar 8 2014 2:31 utc | 124

guest77 Thank you again for speaking up in my defense. I've done plenty, and I'll be happy to talk about it some time when that little twit is elsewhere. But no, soccer riots were never my thing ;~) And yes, I'll take any (serious and/or well-intended) suggestions anyone has, because I really do believe we've all got to do our best to put the right kind of pressure wherever we can, and I'll be damned if I can figure out where that is right now except the upcoming EU elections.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 8 2014 2:35 utc | 125

Soccer riots are not my thing

Nor securing actual housing for anyone it seems

Posted by: brb | Mar 8 2014 2:37 utc | 126

Somebody's back, to hint at russian deviousness again, after being exposed lying about the NATO sniper.

A triumvirate of liars in this evening it seems. All 3 well suited to each other

Posted by: brb | Mar 8 2014 2:42 utc | 127

Careful, Nora

I'm afraid you - and of course they - are a little quick there.

Yes, they've put some oligarchs in power. But: that's pretty exactly what the people despise and against what they went to the streets in the first place. In anything but (very) short term this will be favourable for Russia because it underlines and emboldens the equation "zusa/zeu/"new government" = violence, oligarchs again, breaking the country in peoples minds.

Similarly the move to freeze certain persons assets by zusa/zeu is not exactly smart. For one you bet that every rich guy in ukraine has stashed away quite some money. Second it doesn't really hurt the ethnic Russian movement. While they might have oligarchs on "their" territory, too, they do not exactly love them. Last but not least, opening the can of sanctions always risks to be taken as an invitation by the other side.

All in all, both zusa/zeu and the "new government" look desperate and quite helpless and the "tough measures" they take (other than against their own people) actually are but quite insignificant.

But there is one more point I'd like to guide some attention to:

As Nora already correctly hinted, it's absolutely *not* just the people or some oligarchs "over there" who are robbed and stripped! Saying "zusa is giving x bln $" or "zeu is giving y bln $" in help, let us not forget that, basically directly translates to "the people in the west are giving z bln $" - most of which will just do a quite short round trip through the banking system. And of course it's also the people in the wezt who finally pay the bill for the new regime, the payed terrorists and killers and so on.

But one can state even more generally that it's by no means coincidence that *all* those "fights fr democracy", "responsability to protect" and similar wezters schemes have (among others) one common element: There's *always* big amounts of public (read: the peoples) money being shifted towards the 1%. Always.
This might help in understanding why many of the criminals involved consider those schemes win/win, no matter what.
For the people, of course, there is but the lose/lose part.


Ceterum censeo israel americanamque vehementer delenda esse!

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 8 2014 2:49 utc | 128

brb

While I'm by no means against you (and actually consider quite some of your posts smart):

I'm having a hard time understanding why you attack Nora and guest77 so fervently. I fail to see anything really bad or evil done or written by them.

You feel they picked at you? Well, you picked back and the accounts should be settled since long.

You planned an led a process at the end of which housing was created for people needing it? Great! Praise on you! Seriously.
But, you see, those houses can only get uglier when being used as a weapon against people you feel to not treat you fair and proper.

So, let's forget the picking and have some tea and interesting discussions together.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 8 2014 3:01 utc | 129

Oui,

Thank you so much for keeping on posting diaries about the sniper killings.

(I was banned from BoomanTribune under another name for criticizing Obama, and have no intent of reregestering at that dead-ender Web site.)

Posted by: Demian | Mar 8 2014 3:01 utc | 130

"And then you can start to teach others. I don't mean political activism; I'm talking about asking a question here and there. I'm talking of correcting perspective shifted completely out of the realm of reason. It's not about activism, it's about persons, persons in your daily environment.

It's about piercing the mindless and relentless happyness spattering of being proud to be an merican, of america being the land of the free, about democracy and all that blabla."

In my environment, and I think the Southwestern part of the U.S. might be worse for this than the east coast I moved from, if you aren't chronically peppy, people don't particularly want to talk with you. If you aren't that upbeat hyper-extroverted ideal American, you are going to have less chance of having your points heard. If you don't make or at least laugh at the same Sochi jokes (for example) everyone else is indulging in, you are already a bit of a weirdo. Anyway, I try to slip in alternative perspectives, but when people make small talk about "the news," they mostly just want you to repeat the things everyone else is saying. They get knocked off balance a little if you bring in a perspective that isn't what you'd get on CNN or on the front page of the NYT or WSJ.

Posted by: RudyM | Mar 8 2014 3:03 utc | 131

I just realised why guest thinks I'm lying

For all his talk of revolution, like most armchair "revolutionaries" he's never once been involved in any actual activity that might be considered a subversive act, other than ranting on the net, which he seems to think is the essence of "revolution"

Hence his belief that anyone that has must by lying.

Projection again, trips him up everytime

Posted by: brb | Mar 8 2014 3:04 utc | 132

So, Mr. Pragma, the Ukrainian people just have to hunker down and put up with this until... ? But how many countries have actually gotten out from under our control? Cuba and Iran are the only two I can think of right now. And yes, we are crumbling -- people are truly hungry and you wouldn't believe our infrastructure -- but only the racists are angry and they're basically just chickens rooting for Colonel Sanders. Most everyone else, really, is just oblivious. And the financial sleight-of-hand is truly astounding and no one even seems to notice. We just shake our heads and agree it's a good thing our parents are long-gone, because they wouldn't even recognize this place -- and I'm not talking about iPhones either.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 8 2014 3:08 utc | 133

127

I was asked a question and gave an honest answer

Then the liars started lying, because they project their own faults and failings on to others, and presume that everyone else lies like they do.

Im quite happy to have discussions with any decent honest human, but liars like the 3 we've seen tonight don't pass yet the "honesty-test" . . . as anyone can plainly see.

Posted by: brb | Mar 8 2014 3:11 utc | 134

#129 RudyM, The only thing that we've found marginally successful is to identify some point or issue that person really feels strongly about, and keep yakking and asking questions (not leading questions, genuine questions and drawing them out) and then, showing whatever support you can, try and build a tiny bridge/move them maybe 1/2 step, just for the moment. This is a very slow, long-term process but sometimes, with some people, you can make some headway. Just not very much.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 8 2014 3:14 utc | 135

The irony of ironies is being accused of lying by an individual that had just finished telling a lie right before the moment he accused me.

Posted by: brb | Mar 8 2014 3:16 utc | 136

RudyM

Well, I have bad news for you and good news.

The bad news are that it's actually worse (based on what I've experienced and seen). We humans are way more complex and at the same time delicately "wired" than most like to think. An example: Just watch and listen closely at how people speak, where the sounds are created, how they are (sorry, my lousy english ... I'm missing a word for the process of sound leaving the cavities so as to be heard).

Shockingly many zamericans sound very artificial in terms of "controlled". Whatever they say must pass many filters. One of the reasons for them to so frequently use "text pieces" that are prepared, checked for p.c. and other "necessities". They seem to be very alone in themselves, almost as if they had no roots and had lost even themselves and were forced to fit in a group for survival.


The good news is: It's not that easy to escape and to stand for oneself, i.e. enjoying a rather high degree of freedom. But it's feasible.
I myself, but that has roots in my early years, never cared batshit about those group games (which exist pretty everywhere, sometimes more, sometimes less).

Some questions:

Who's responsible for what I do? Who will pay (or collect) the consequences? The answer is *always* "myself".
It seems just logical then, to decide oneself if oneself is the one responsible and paying anyway, no? Because there is another inherent group "law". it's never the group to pay. it's always the individuals.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 8 2014 3:21 utc | 137

Mr. Pragma,

As you probably know, in a letter, Dostoyevsky expressed the view that Americans do not have souls, and his character Svidrigaylov from Crime and Punishment said, as he was about to shoot himself in the head, "I am going to America."

Trying to figure out why Dostoyevksy would write these things might help American policy makers figure out how to better deal with the Russians.

Posted by: Demian | Mar 8 2014 3:45 utc | 138

One has only to read the O/T comments in this thread after #100 to see that b's advice to refrain from feeding suspected trolls has a firm foundation. This blog allows people to say what's on their mind. If someone says something you don't agree with, it's on the record, and if it's as fatuous as you think, others will think so too. Trying to 'win' an argument with an ideological opposite is a fool's errand and a waste of time (and space).

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Mar 8 2014 3:47 utc | 139

Nora

I'm afraid, in a way yes.

But then, there's no "ukrainian people" in the first place. There are diverse groups. And, harsh as it may sound, yes, the western ukrainian people are and will stay pretty fucked unless some good fairy happens to help them (which won't happen because even nice fairys patience is limited *g)
They are - although this a perspective nobody notices and even less talks about - very easy to manipulate and control - as recent events have shown again.

The ethnic Russians are also quite well used to being controlled but for quite different reasons. There is a reasons the ethnic Russians stayed calm while the ukrainians protested (albeit - of course - in vain). And the ethnic Russians have nothing to be afraid of; today mother Russia cann very well take care of and protect her people.

Risking to repeat myself, the solution is completely depending on Russia and hence on Putin not being pissed off beyond a (rather high) limit. My guess is that there will be a complete (territorial) ukraine with more autonomy for the eastern and southern part. I thin Putin *wants* to respect ukraines integrity and souvereignty but at the same time he *must* see for ethnic Russian being protected. Possible exception: Crimea. Not because Putin wants it that way but because the wezt and his puppets have played their games so poorly and too long and now a certain autodynamic is at work with Crimea possibly simply refusing to stay a part of ukraine.

There will, almost certainly, be some "fine-tuning", too, i.e. certain provisions e.g. in a changed constitution so as to achieve a generally better situations. But in the end one must not expect miracles in a country as rotten as ukraine.

So, I do not at all see any chance for zusa/zeu/"new government" to win. The "new government" will soon be history, maybe even in jail. There *will* be some, possibly considerable changes in a good direction, simply because zusa will be completely out of the game, zeu can't afford a rotten ukraine and Russia doesn't want a rotten ukraine.
And yes, and that's major good news, zusa will suffer a very major reputational damage and loss of trust and respect. And quite probably some loss of influence even in zeu.

That might not sound like much and certainly not like the final victory but I'm convinced ukraine will turn out to be a very major step in zusa decline or even demise (as a major power). And that again will certainly give hope to many countries like, to name a current example, Venezuela.

But let me, if I may take the liberty to treat you like a friend for a moment, warn you. Be aware that unless you have reached a certain level of true freedom and understanding of the mechanics at work, you will risk to find yourself caught in an ugly web feeding daemons when thinking and acting political.
I do that because there are precious few of you in zusa and because it will be ugly what you have coming.The decisive resource then will not be money or rifle but humans, mature humans with their proper own freedom (and not the blabla freedom given by groups or states).
If this, no matter how well intentioned, was too personal, I apologize.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 8 2014 3:49 utc | 140

Demian

If the zamericans where capable to understand Dostoyevsky they wouldn't be in trouble and a pain in the ass in the first place *g

(But you are of course right with your point and, indeed, although many don't get that point, culture *is* a major pillar of Russias strength)

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 8 2014 3:51 utc | 141

Thank you again, Mr. P. I do understand what you're talking about and yes, we're expecting it to get very ugly here.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 8 2014 4:21 utc | 142

137) There is a sock puppet invasion again and they are talking to each other.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 8 2014 4:25 utc | 143

95) Actually, the Russian bourgeoisie is very European. Russia always has been back to Katharina the Great who was German (she was not the only one).

I guess all those 10 years the US tried to economically integrate Eastern Europe/Ukraine away from Russia into the EU, Russia has been economically integrating Europe.

Sure, the US is escalating now, they are losing the EU.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 8 2014 4:46 utc | 144

There's an awful lot of crap on here by 'brb'. I suggest he returns to outer darkness, where he came from.

Good Shamir in Counterpunch today (only two or three errors of fact in it, and none critical).

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Mar 8 2014 4:57 utc | 145

I've always respected Brzezinski but he has lost his shit.

Hillary Clinton was right in historically comparing Putin’s use of force to seize Crimea to Hitler’s use of force in seizing the Sudetenland

— Zbigniew Brzezinski (@zbig) March 7, 2014

Posted by: ess emm | Mar 8 2014 5:13 utc | 146

Where is Czechoslovakia today? Gone. It was a made up country, arbitrary lines on a map drawn by people who wanted to punish the losers of WWI. It had no other reason to exist, and once the politics of the world wars and the cold war died down, it disintegrated of its own accord. Maybe if morons in European capitals hadn't played God with the people of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and Germany, there wouldn't have been a Sudetenland for Hitler to occupy.

Similarly, the Ukraine is a made up country, arbitrary lines on a map drawn by Soviet premieres, but declared inviolate by morons in European (and American) capitals in order to punish the former Soviet Union for having lost the cold war.

After WWII, Stalin seized part of Poland and gave it to the Ukraine. Why wasn't that territory given back to Poland after the USSR broke up? Why was Khrushchev's edict assigning the Crimea to the Ukraine written in stone? Why was Stalin's decree assigning Abkhazia to the Georgian SSR sacrosanct? Why weren't the people of the FSU given the opportunity to decide what their own fates should be?

These are rhetorical questions, of course. It is all about power and dominance.

Posted by: shargash | Mar 8 2014 5:35 utc | 147

Posted by: ess emm | Mar 8, 2014 12:13:52 AM | 144
putin has seized nothing, and these Hitler comparisons would be better applied to Pravi Sektor in Kiev

Posted by: brian | Mar 8 2014 5:55 utc | 148

Neither peace nor war’


Why, do you suppose, war has not yet broken out between Russia and Ukraine? The answer is very simple: no one plans to go to war, and no one can. Kiev for practical purposes does not have an army, while the government that has appeared in Kiev has no control over half of Ukraine, and cannot even exercise particular control over its own supporters. If the Ukrainian authorities make any serious attempt to mobilise their forces, this will merely provoke new protests. Even rumours of such a possibility have been enough to provoke anti-government demonstrations in Odessa.

Moscow, meanwhile, is rattling its sabres, but very cautiously. If the Kremlin were really serious about sending troops onto Ukrainian territory, it would not have asked permission from the Council of the Federation, but would simply have issued the order. Instead of real action we saw PR action, with a “unanimous vote by the senators”. A war broke out in the virtual space of the internet, backed by hysterical commentaries from liberals and malevolent howls from conservative propagandists. In essence, this was enough to fulfil the tasks faced by the authorities at present.

http://zcomm.org/znetarticle/polite-intervention-and-the-ukrainian-uprising/

Posted by: anna | Mar 8 2014 6:22 utc | 149

anna

Russia isn't the Sowjet republic anymore but a working democracy.

Of course, Putin has, like pretty every chief of state, the authority to order military operations *if* there is an *immediate* danger. Otherwise the Russian president will follow well establishes democratic procedures.

And no, Moscow is not rattling their sabres, not at all. Russia actually is acting quite peacefully, considering that its neighbour was attacked by planned terrorist operations and ukraines duly elected and acting president has asked Russia for help.

All Russia really did (militarily) so far was to enhance the protection of its bases. And it did that without firing a single shot.

As a sideline, although related, pretty all lost battles were lost as a consequence of ignoring or poorly implementing the 3 "holy basic laws" of strategy. 1) Think twice and well whether to engage or whether the priority can be achieved by better suited or cheaper means. 2) If you do, do very good analysis, then ponder and design very well thought out major objectives. 3) Finally set well thought out limits and prudently stick to them.

Zusa has repeatedly ignored or poorly implemented those rules. The first one was often ignored in arrogance and delusions. The second one would take too much room to be judged here. And the 3rd is probably the most ignored one. In Iraq, for instance, the whole operation was tainted by diverse parties and interests and rather than conducting a well thought out and clearly defined operation properly and then return victorious, zusa got worn out up to the point of losing that war.
Or remember Hitler in Russia. He took more than 2 mio. pows and won several decisive battles, damaging Stalins army immensely. He had achieved what was necessary that is, to make Stalins planned surprise attack all but impossible. But rather than leaving, particularly with the Russian winter approaching, he violated law #3 (and #2) and went on, eventually losing everything.

Now look at ukraine. Russia has achieved or secured her goals without any losses. ukraine is at either the nazis, criminals, and terrorists mercy or at Russias mercy (looking from the "new government" perspective), zusa is all but completely out of the equation (save some farting), zeu is facing waves of criminals and billions to pay with basically no gain.

And best of all: Russia was not and is not (and I dare to assume with high confidence will not be) in a war.
Anything soon upcoming that the wezt will decry as "Russia conducts war!" will, at a closer look, turn out as merely borrowing some equipment and providing some advice to ethnic Russian ukrainians so as to allow them the necessary operations.


Sure, there are some unknowns (and insanes) hidden. Who knows what weirdo erdogan might come up with considering the situation in his country? (And who knows whose whore he happens to be this week and whose "sworn enemy" bla bla?) Who knows what dirty games israel has in mind? (My guess: None for an exception. Simply because they need their dog zusa not being worn out or even killed; after all, that dog is needed to win israels war against Iran (or so they wet-dream))? And finally: One can't be really sure what president-actor "we can. change. our mind - twice weekly" obama might come up with? I would certainly not underestimate zusas suicide potential or lack of reason.

But if all parties (except ukraines "new government" that doesn't carry weight anyway) refrain from ideas that are typically born in mental asylums, that's about it.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 8 2014 7:17 utc | 150

thanks for the post b and to those who continue to share there unique insights here..

i enjoyed reading the first part of this long thread where there seemed to be an air of friendliness and humour.. somewhere along the line one particular poster posted way too much for anyone to have to read thru.. please stop picking on other posters and thinking this is the place to do this! offer some insight or share your thoughts, but spare us the other bullshit.. hopefully b will put a stop to it, if you don't.

Posted by: james | Mar 8 2014 7:25 utc | 151

oui @94 - thanks for the link with videos.. has anyone figured out who the guys with yellow arm bands are?

Posted by: james | Mar 8 2014 7:36 utc | 152

The black wolf’s hook on yellow armbands revealed their political affiliation: the Social-National Assembly (SNA), a largely Kyiv-based neo-Nazi organisation, which hoped to register as a political party in 2011 but failed. Its leaders and ideologues are currently jailed on dubious charges. (Dec 3 2014)

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Mar 8 2014 8:24 utc | 153

More people need to know about the U.S.'s manipulations in Ukraine's politics: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBAB_unT2kM&list=PLfrlsC1yJ2dSjilda6G3Zf4DGam4B-Pwp

Posted by: Tom Murphy | Mar 8 2014 8:27 utc | 154

ess emm

Brezinski is an angry racist pole, he hate russians.

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 8 2014 8:39 utc | 155

@Demian #128: Appreciate your kind words, thanks for lurking. It makes the effort worthwhile.

How the Events of Sniper Fire In Instytutska Street Unfolded (militia with yellow armbands)
[PS. I was banned from dkos, reinstated by Armando and banned again. Kind of a badge of honor.]

Posted by: Oui | Mar 8 2014 8:46 utc | 156

Thanks Tom Murphy

Of course, that video is now very well known (at least here) but it's anyway good to be reminded not only of the gross and outright criminal actions of zusa but also the repeatedly grossly biased services un (zun?) renders to zusa.

I personally enjoy the press conference where that nudelman/nuland bitch not only tries to somehow lie away the situation but does is stupid enough to defend herself and zusas criminal move by actually confirming that such criminal actions are standard and normal for the zusa thug regime.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 8 2014 8:53 utc | 157

@Oui # 154: I was also banned from dKos, twice. I didn't bother asking anyone to reinstate me; I got in a second time by changing my userid slightly. The first time I got banned was for asking why Kerry, when he was the Dem presidential candidate, didn't ask certain questions of Israel; the second time was for bringing up the concept of the Holocaust industry.

Now I view dKos and BoomanTribune as blogosphere moral equivalents of B52s dropping bombs on the Vietnamese, so I have no interest whatsoever in rejoining either of them. The function of those Web sites is to give the impression that there are still liberal Democrats who are not completely identical, in practical terms, with the Empire. So today, those blogs should be viewed as nothing yet more than more primitive spokesmen for the US corporate military machine, albeit with a "progressive" voice.

Posted by: Demian | Mar 8 2014 9:12 utc | 158

The bloodiest day was Thursday 20.02.2014, the first day Ukraine security forces used firearms as we witnessed the protesters with handguns and rifles. A BBC report of opposition using a sniper rifle from 5th floor media Ukraine Hotel. A RT reporter caught in the mayhem at the media Ukraine Hotel on Instytutska Street, made a short documentary with footage of the action before sniper fire. I couldn't find it on the RT website yet. These were their earlier reports:
From a sea of flags to rivers of blood: How Kiev's peaceful protests turned into Maidan mayhem
Ukraine bloodshed: Kiev death toll jumps to 77
With another footage of militia with yellow armbands and lots of opinions. These two articles were published on 20.02.2014 and last edit on 21.02.2014.

The MSM – The Guardian, BBC News, e.a. – used a brief portion of RFERL/RadioScoboda.org footage [38sec] inserted to the sniper action which took place later on.

Please note, some of the NGOs [previously] funded by Omidyar are attributed to action in Maidan's violence.

Posted by: Oui | Mar 8 2014 9:26 utc | 159

Russia doesn't want a rotten ukraine. Mr Pragma somewhere.

This is key.

The US-EU (which seems to boil down at its roots to an association between France and US neo-cons to simplify to the extreme!) wants to strip Ukraine bare. (1) The only groups within Ukr. who would agree to that - while keeping a hunk of profit for themselves - were the fundamentalist, domineering thugs, Right Sektor etc. So that is what they used. I think this situation is easier to grasp from the outside for those not so much in the know, than the situation in Syria, for example, where Islam muddies the issue and we have read endlessly about good and bad opposition, moderates, confused blah blah.

Now, the mask is off, and the US particularly is made to look ...fill it in...

Putin wants a stable, rich Ukraine, and that is what he will, is, fighting for. I doubt that means annexing the Crimea, though something like that might come about willy-nilly, with some new ‘status’ or what not.

1) The EU assoc. agreement included e.g. a cap on Ukr. agri production and the obligation to up the production of arms! Putin offered the only sensible possible: massive buying of Urk. Gvmt bonds (thus, à fond perdus, so to speak), and lowering of the gas price. The coupists in Kiev don’t give a sh*t about ‘saving’ Ukr, their intentions are quite different.

Posted by: Noirette | Mar 8 2014 9:28 utc | 160

@Oui # 154: I was also appalled to see the response to your diaries at EuropeanTrubine. It appears that that site has also been absorbed into the propaganda machine of the Empire.

Posted by: Demian | Mar 8 2014 9:30 utc | 161


Truth about situation in Ukraine
1 hr ·
KIEV IS PREPARING FULL-SCALE INVASION IN CRIMEA

http://stbcaptain.livejournal.com/84443.html

27th Uragan self-propelled rocket launcher system regiment (16 launchers per truck, 220 mm caliber, warhead weight 100 kg, maximum destruction range 35 km; the distance from Chaplinka to Perekop is 30 km) is moving out from Sumy.

Unfortunately my personal opinion on the probable developments around Crimea is that Kiev has decided to prepare a military strike on Crimea.

1. As the Minister of Defense admiral Tenukh (born in Lvov region) is unable to plan large-scale on-land operations, Messrs. Turchinov, Parubiy and Yatseniuk have decided to appoint three of his deputies to plan the operation. All three generals – Oleinik, Mozharovsky and Babenko – have declined this offer, which resulted in their dismissal; this personnel breach was filled in by a retired colonel – Petr Mekhed, whose last official position was the Deputy Director of the Department for International Cooperation of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine.

2. There is no confirmed information about who of the Ukrainian Generals has agreed to implement the plan, which in its core resembles the Georgian attack on Southern Ossetia. However, if we consider the fact that active protection gear is being installed on the tanks of the 1st separate tank brigade (Goncharovskoye, Chernigov region) and that 26th artillery brigade (Berdichev, Zhitomir region) and 27th self-propelled rocket launcher system regiment (Sumy) are moving out, one could assume that the 8th army corps under command of lieutenant general Petr Mikhailovich Litvin will be the core of the group.

3. 79th separate airborne brigade has been deployed to block the Crimean passage necks. 8th army corps (Zhitomir) is moving out to the south, which contains of two mechanized and one tank brigades. They can also engage 25th separate paratroopers brigade (Dnepropetrovsk) and other units from 6th army corps (Dnepropetrovsk). The created group (depending on the results of their “cooperation” with the commanders) can be more than serious – up to two tank and four mechanized brigades with artillery support units as well as a paratrooper and airborne brigades and a special forces regiment.

4. From the military point of view this is nothing else but an assault operation, which immediate goal is to capture the passage necks and moving out to maneuver room with the final goal being to de-block the Ukrainian military bases and facilities. From a political point of view capturing Dzhankoi and Simferopol will ensure that no referendum is held.

5. As we have found out, “maidan self-defense activists” (who are mostly the Right-Wing Sector members) have been appointed to accompany the military units commanders, whose task is to ensure active political propaganda for the army personnel and to supervise the commanders with a right to suspend them.

I do not want and will not comment on the reasons of Kiev decision to go “all in” hoping to unleash a military conflict with Russia – let the politicians think and talk about it.

I personally hope that the reason of the Ukrainian military commanders will take over the demands of their political leaders and that Petr Mikhailovich will think before giving an order to open fire.

This is one of the rare cases, when I sincerely wish I was wrong.

There was a time once, when everyone should have shouted about Saakashvily not dismissing his reserves after the “maneuvers”, sending tanks to Tskhinval and deploying artillery and rocket launchers. Everybody kept quiet. Nobody prevented Saakashvili from giving an order to start the war…

Posted by: brian | Mar 8 2014 10:08 utc | 162

letter to CIC on their criticising russias use of R2P in Ukraine
March 8, 2014 at 8:59pm
hello CIC

this is one of yours

The CIC ‏@TheCIC 17h
Russia is attempting to cloak aggressive action through the mantle of humanitarian intervention, says @JamesPRudolph. opencanada.org/features/the-t…

where we have:
'R2P has three pillars. First, each individual state has the primary responsibility to protect its populations from genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity, and ethnic cleansing. Second, the international community should encourage or assist states to exercise this responsibility. And finally, the international community has the responsibility to use appropriate diplomatic, humanitarian, and other peaceful means to protect populations threatened by these crimes. When a state manifestly fails in its protection responsibilities, and peaceful means are inadequate, the international community must take stronger measures including the collective use of force authorized by the UN Security Council under Chapter VII.'

you seem unaware that R2P was made to be abused, to jusify NATO forces entering a state under the guise of Peacekeeping.
Take Libya...R2P was invoked to send in NATO forces to 'save libya llives. Here is what they did in Zliten:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtS2qJeeXUA
http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/Article_63567.shtml
the idea is Gadfi had been killng libyans . Res1973 speaks of 'heavy civilian casalties'...in fact at the time this res was made there were no 'heavy civilian casualties', as was revealed by Alan Kupeman in april 2011.
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2011/04/14/false_pretense_for_war_in_libya/

so RES 1973 was based on a lie, but used to justify an invasion of Libya, violating international law. Libya was protecting its citizens
NATO did not.
Now with Ukraine:


You people act as if the regime that came to power thru a violent coup is legitimate .It is not. Russia knows this hence the problems..If Canadas govt was over thrown by a coup would you recognise the govt?
A leaked conversation between EUs Cathering Ashton and estonias FM Paeet reveals the violent sniping used as justifcation for toppling the govt was most likely carried out by the euromaidan leaders themselves:
http://rt.com/news/ashton-maidan-snipers-estonia-946/

Your march 7 article makes no mention of this....yet it waas already news.

You claim the illegitimate regime is protecting ukrainians, yet we have reports of leaders in east ukraine being abducted by police:
'Pavel Gubarev, whom a many-thousands-strong meeting of opponents of the incumbent Kiev government elected “people’s governor” of the predominantly Russian-speaking region March 1, is charged with crimes related to encroachments on Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity, with actions aimed at an overthrow or toppling of the constitutional system or the seizure of state power, and seizure of government and public offices.'
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/722658

note the last 3 lines. isnt that what the coup masters of Svoboda , Pravi Sektor and others have done? others have also been arrested and disappeared. Its natural for an illegal regime to use the law..or make new laws to remove enemies, in this case leaders of any potential counter revolution....But this wlll only inflame the citizens

Your people claim ethic russians supported the coup...well you dont use the word 'coup'...In fact, as we see with Crimea, and cities like Donetz,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VktqzB01hh8

and in Kharkov:
locals vs pravi sektor thugs
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xa5QQClFbEo‎

russian speakers of crimea and east ukraine DNOT support the coup. are outraged that the legitinate govt was removed on as w have learned a pretence of killings crried out by the rebels.

Pravi Sektor thugs have already made their way to Odessa and speak of storming Crimea.. an event thag even you will admit justifie R2P by Russia

Then thers the eponymous 'international community'...who is that? Mostly US/european politicians who back the coup, as we know from the Nuland revelations:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-eu-clash-on-how-to-install-a-puppet-regime-in-ukraine-victoria-nuland/5367794
where we learn of EU and US plans to overthrow the government...which violates the Budapest memorandum

so what so we have? s classic colour revolution
http://www.storyleak.com/ukraine-cia-eu-collude-execute-another-color-revolution/
using local violent insurgents shielded by 'peaceful protestors, who also serve a useful role in being killed by snipers to create outrage, justifynig a coup. Now the role aided by YOU and the 'international community is to ensure their is no counter revolution by the people.

and yes...Russia can invoke R2P, because the ukrainians wont rest till they see thei democracy restored, and this will necessitate the regime using violence to defend its illgotten gains

regard

Posted by: brian | Mar 8 2014 10:11 utc | 163

Independent from my own research, romans74 added his comment to my diary:

Maidan Ukraina - Truth about snipers: Klichko, Turchinov or Yatsenyuk? Events chronology:
http://goo.gl/D8u9Rw
click "subtitles" then "english" at right corner
by romans74 on Sat Mar 8th, 2014 at 01:34:55 AM PDT

Posted by: Oui | Mar 8 2014 10:45 utc | 164

At Last, MSM Caught On: Who Were the Snipers?

Russia and Ukraine feud over carnage? Why isn't this massacre in overthrow of Yanukovich a concern of human rights for the European Union, the US government and members of US Congress? Collateral damage, just move along, nothing here to see ...

Russia, Ukraine feud over sniper carnage

KIEV, Ukraine (AP/WaPo) — One of the biggest mysteries hanging over the protest mayhem that drove Ukraine’s president from power: Who was behind the snipers who sowed death and terror in Kiev?

That riddle has become the latest flashpoint of feuding over Ukraine — with the nation’s fledgling government and the Kremlin giving starkly different interpretations of events that could either undermine or bolster the legitimacy of the new rulers.

Posted by: Oui | Mar 8 2014 11:42 utc | 165

@brian 160 Now we all know what the 1 billion USD of the "AID" from the US is being spent. My appeal to the Russian forces: please have no mercy for the NATO mercenaries and commanders, and the Ukrainian traitorous "high command". :-)

Posted by: ProPeace | Mar 8 2014 11:50 utc | 166

Gordon Duff, unique and brilliant as always, more on Gladio – the Gift that Keeps on Giving. A must-read.

Posted by: ProPeace | Mar 8 2014 12:16 utc | 168

@Oui $5bn had been spent until the coup took place, now they needed urgently more money to pay the military to invade Cremea, heaven forbid to use it to prevent the coming pension cuts...

Posted by: ProPeace | Mar 8 2014 12:59 utc | 169

Mike Whitney has a good piece out about Russia, oil, and US greed: Grand Puppetmaster Brzezinski Directing War Strategies from the Shadows

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 8 2014 13:09 utc | 170

@ProPeace #167 : I understand the Ukraine needs $35bn to cover debt payments 2014-2015. Large part is debt to Russia and Gazprom, otherwise gas import will be cut.

Another figure, over the period until 2020, the Ukrainian economy and building infrastructure will need a sum of $200bn. Dilemma, carry these billions into the pockets of Ukrainian oligarchs directly [corruption level 144 out of 177 nations] or ship money to "safe havens" on Jersey Islands, Italy, Switzerland or The Netherlands. :-)

Posted by: Oui | Mar 8 2014 13:23 utc | 171

Vladimir Suchan shared Сурковская Пропаганда's photo.
11 mins ·
Former Czech Primer Minister and President Vaclav Klaus on the Ukrainian crisis. One of the few rationally thinking politicians in Europe:
Here are the words of the former President of the Czech Republic Václav Klaus on Ukraine: 1. Ukraine in its present form is largely an artificial entity, which became an independent State after the collapse of the Soviet Union 20 years ago.

2. on the one hand, it includes territory in the West of the country, which has never formed part of the Russian Empire, and were annexed to Russia after World War II (Transcarpathian region, Galicia, etc.). On the other hand, is the former purely by the Russians since the 18th century (Crimea, Odessa, and East of the country), where Ukraine's independence meant the gap between national roots.

3. a certain artificiality of public education and the difference in the views of its inhabitants about the future from the very beginning of his paralysed political life. This was noticeable even from Prague. This was in addition to the country's difficult transformation failed legacy of communism and the economic and political chaos of the last twenty years.

4. Ukraine remained and could not stay in a country deeply rooted in post-Soviet Russia, and in many ways dependent on it. It is natural, and there is no way that this could be changed.

5. Ukraine for Russia means more than the rest of the nearest neighbors, more, than, for example, Estonia, Azerbaijan or Tajikistan. This is a historical cradle of Russian statehood and culture, it is home to tens of millions of Russians.

6. in these circumstances, the opinion of some people in Europe, including politicians and representatives of the European Union and the Czech Republic, under which you can fight for Ukraine's orientation to the West or to the East, ignores reality. It leads the country into a crisis, which can only end in tragedy.

7. the objectively existing geopolitical situation to preserve Ukraine as an independent and at the same time, prosperous and functioning State requires restraint and diplomatic skills of its politicians and foreign partners. Unfortunately, we see the opposite on both sides.

8. from the West is extremely irresponsible to support the ambitions and illusions of radicals from the West of Ukraine, believe that the choice between the East and the West really exists, and that the EU and the United States are able to not only support, but also to Ukraine in its quest to the West in the long run. Clear and solid interest in the West, and no desire to pay for it. West helped break out crisis that he didn't want and the consequences of which he was not prepared to be held accountable.

9. To push Ukraine into the dilemma — East or West — means to divide it. Unfortunately, it seems that this is what is happening.

10. it seems that the majority of stakeholders starting to understand it. The question is, is it too late. And the belief that this can be addressed through new elections, is a delusion. (Translated by Bing) https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=686927264682256&set=a.421792147862437.92607.421790914529227&type=1

Posted by: brian | Mar 8 2014 13:46 utc | 172

@brian #170 : excellent post!

Posted by: Oui | Mar 8 2014 14:37 utc | 173

B, your fucking troll, with his multiple personnas, is destroying the comment section. Everytime I visit, which is getting less and less, I find the same unmistakeable spore, deposited in a trademark manner, yet sporting a new monicker.

One can only wonder what sort of sick piece of shit jerks himself off in such a manner.

Posted by: PissedOffAmerican | Mar 8 2014 15:43 utc | 174

… and Andriy Parubiy will lead the investigation into sniper killings and the massacred Ukrainians.

Posted by: Oui | Mar 8 2014 15:48 utc | 175

POA # 172

I am quite new in MoA , who is the troll ?

Posted by: Sufi | Mar 8 2014 15:53 utc | 176

150) rent a provocateur? b. found them also invading a government building in Crimea.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 8 2014 15:56 utc | 177

175) what they intended on Maidan is very simple to decide - which direction were they shooting - the protesters or the police?

Posted by: somebody | Mar 8 2014 16:04 utc | 178

PissedOffAmerican @172

I'm not the troll, I'm an angry American too and I guess I put too many words and too much anger in my pleas for advice on what we can do here. I'll be more careful in the future, I promise!

Posted by: Nora | Mar 8 2014 16:13 utc | 179

@Somebody (#142)

I think you were replying to my comment #95?
If so then allow me to explain what I mean by 'national bourgeoisie'.
I use the term 'national bourgeoisie' to refer to a country's independent bourgeoisie
which stands for it's own interests and competes with the bourgeoisie of other countries. I use the term is in contrast with a 'subservient bourgeoisie' which identifies its own interests completely in acting as a servant to globally dominant bourgeoisie in return for getting a small share of what globally dominant bourgeoisie extracts from the exploitation of the dominated nation.
So for example Mubarak's cronies and Sisi's and Morsi's were all examples of 'subservient bourgeoisie'. Other examples would be the parts of Iranian bourgeoisie
which benefited from and supported Shah's regime in Iran, or the cronies of Pinochet
in Chile.
'National bourgeoisie' in contrast, pursues its own independent interests *in competition* with the globally dominant bourgeoisie.
This of course does not mean that all parts of Russian bourgeoisie should be classified as
'national bourgeoisie' (many of them are subservient bourgeoisie). It only means that there does EXIST a viable 'national bourgeoisie' in Russia as a force to be reckoned with.
Also I don't mean that 'national bourgeoisie' necessarily competes with the rival foreign bourgeoisie on all issues. All it means is that it has an independent set of interests very distinct from, and generally in competition with the globally dominant bourgeoisie.

Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Mar 8 2014 16:35 utc | 180

PissedOff

"One can only wonder what sort of sick piece of shit jerks himself off in such a manner"

He's not a jerk off, he's a pro, how many has he ensnared into answering him. Many. That's one sign of a pro. We can't rise to the bait. More than distracting us from meaningful discussion, he twists the whole thread away from discussion very effectively, another sign of a pro. He may be a hired hand of Booz-Allen or some other cut-out, but he's good at what he does, and the ONLY way to handle him is totally ignore him.

Nora, no one thinks you're a troll.

Posted by: okie farmer | Mar 8 2014 16:36 utc | 181

rowan@ 151 - thanks.

somebody 175 - i watched those videos that b posted.. changed the colour of their arm bands, but that was about it i suppose..

Posted by: james | Mar 8 2014 16:46 utc | 182

I've been reading the many threads here at MoA about the coup in Ukraine and
here as elsewhere in the alternative media/blogosphere, I detect this
ridiculous hysteria about "Nazis". YAWWWNNN, everyone, whether on the 'left' or
'right', when desiring to make a point, drag in the nazi boogeyman.
Who are these nazis? Are they people like "Delta", Ukrainian Jewish commander of
a Ukrainian street-fighting unit and former IDF Givati brigade soldier?
The jewish Telegraphic Agency, JTA, has reported that 'Delta' "has headed a
force of 40 men and women — including several fellow IDF veterans — in violent
clashes with government forces." As for the "Nazi" Svoboda; "As platoon leader,
Delta says he takes orders from activists connected to Svoboda, an
ultra-nationalist party that has been frequently accused of anti-Semitism and
whose members have been said to have had key positions in organizing the
opposition protests. “I don’t belong [to Svoboda], but I take orders from their
team. They know I’m Israeli, Jewish and an ex-IDF soldier. They call me ‘brother,’
he said. “What they’re saying about Svoboda is exaggerated, I know this for a
fact. I don’t like them because they’re inconsistent, not because of [any]
anti-Semitism issue.”
Check out the article here

Odd, eh? Not really. The puppet the neocons installed as 'prime minister',
Arseniy Yatsenyuk, is a Jew and has been working closely with (Svoboda's)Tyahnybok,
the 'nazi'. Yatsenyuk has appointed as Dnepropetrovsk governor a Jewish oligarch
named Igor Kolomoysky, who is a Israeli national.

Turchynov was made the acting President of Ukraine. Also has close relations to
the neocons through a church where he is a pastor or something.
The "Church" 'The Word of Life', reports Bollyn, 'is a Zionist organization
posing as a church. It was established by a Swedish Jew named Ulf Ekman, who
created a church called “Livets Ord”, which established evangelical churches
throughout the former Soviet Union in the early 1990s with the express purpose
of finding and funding Jewish emigration to Israel.'

So instead of wasting time on 'nazi' scarecrows, one should be able to clearly
see that one of the main driving forces - I'd say the main one- pushing events
in the Ukraine are the neocons.
Of course there are also others, like old Polish fart, Brzezinski and his disciples.
A 'cold war warrior' and an ethnic Pole, the guy hates Russia with a passion(old
hatreds from the old world).

There we see the overlapping interests of Zbig and his people with those of the
neocons. Now, Neoconservatism is a Jewish political and intellectual movement.
Main themes are Israel and 'what's good for the jews'.

Secretary of State John Kerry (Kohn) appointed as his Assistant Secretary of State
for European and Eurasian Affairs, Jewish Neocon Victoria Nuland (Nudelman).
The woman is married to Robert Kagan, of the neocon Kagan clan.
Robert, Fred, and their father, Donald Kagan, were the founders of the 'Project
for a New American Century', which pushed for war against Iraq during the Clinton
and Bush administrations. And got it!

Nuland has spent the better part of her tenure so far shuttling back and forth
to Ukraine in order to overthrow the moderately(if even that) pro-Russian
president and install someone more condusive to Jewish/Zio interests.

Why are the neocons so hostile towards Putin and Russia? Part of the answer is the
Jewish oligarchs. Former CIA analyst Philip Giraldi wrote:
"The sustained pressure on the Ukraine over the past several months has likewise
been remarkable and, under other circumstances, it would all be difficult to
explain but for the fact that it and Russia are essentially two halves of one
policy that is being orchestrated by the same group of neoconservatives, some of
whom have now, fortuitously enough, attached themselves to the party in power in
the White House, which is the Democrats."
[...]Like her husband, Nuland, backed by the White House and politicians including
Senators John McCain and Lindsey Graham, is consistently hostile to Moscow,
possibly because the neocon world view favors the predominantly Jewish oligarchs
who looted the Russian economy before being brought to heel by Putin."

For example, when Mikhail Khodorkovsky, the Jewish oligarch and former head of Yukos,
was put in jail, A-grade-neocon Richard Perle led the charge against Putin, calling
for the ouster of Russia from the G-8.

The other main reason for such neocon hostility, is obviously Russia’s support of
Iran and Syria, IsraHells perceived enemies.

Does anyone here think if Russia was controlled by the Israel Lobby and Jewish
interests in the same way that ZUSA is, this s**t would be happening??

Posted by: Luca K | Mar 8 2014 17:15 utc | 183

178) Hmm. I am not sure I can follow you. Any bourgeoisie needs an army to defend their interest and this army would have to be in most cases nation based. The bourgeoisie also needs a state for their business.

The fascinating thing in Ukraine is the historical rerun of all the causes that might get people to rally around a flag. Ethnicity, language, religion - I guess that is what Putin calls the laboratory ... though obviously it is a couple of oligarchs fighting it out with outside help.
This here is an interesting analysis by German Green Party politician Jürgen Trittin on the stupidity of sanctions

Part Translation: "Diversification of the Russian economy is low. 40 percent of GDP are derived from fossile energy. This sector is completely controlled by oligarchs who are close to the Russian state. Brief, Russia is a Gazprom economy.

The lack of diversification is intended as it would take power from the oligarchs. A strong class of small and middle sized entrepreneurs would form interest groups in conflict with the oligarchs close to Putin."

Maybe this "national strategic resource policy by oligarchs with a state" is what you mean.


Posted by: somebody | Mar 8 2014 17:18 utc | 184

"One can only wonder what sort of sick piece of shit jerks himself off in such a manner"

Old Pissy projecting again, as usual.

Posted by: tsk | Mar 8 2014 17:36 utc | 185

angry americans

just what the world needs more of, eh? as if the world didn't have enough of those sort of assholes already

Posted by: tsk | Mar 8 2014 17:38 utc | 186

any chance of some intelligent americans, for a change?

Posted by: tsk | Mar 8 2014 17:39 utc | 187

According to that last Snowden piece Greenwald put out, trolls get paid per/post.

Posted by: okie farmer | Mar 8 2014 18:07 utc | 188

oui, thanks for the links.

don't feed them people. there's a new thread up, just don't engage w/them.

remember how the discourse went completely haywire around the time of the 'green' iranian election. breathe.

Posted by: annie | Mar 8 2014 18:09 utc | 189

brb is a troll, the same one who has been infesting this board for months, foff, sftu and various other aliases. My guess is that he works for the British government or one of its numerous "NGOs" or Front Organisations, financed with the money taken from the unemployed, the elderly and the otherwise vulnerable.
I have no intention of disputing anything he writes and I would advise others to do the same.

Mr Pragma is not a troll. He is clearly an intelligent, well informed and passionate advocate of a right wing Russian nationalist position. That's his right and his views elucidate our discussions. The point that I was attempting to make was that the notion that Russia's military might makes it invulnerable to US aggression is not only mistaken but dangerous. People have been saying this for more than sixty years but it is nonetheless true: in a nuclear age we live in constant danger of annihilation. The current situation is extremely dangerous, nobody should pretend otherwise. Mr Pragma's chest beating "Bring it On" posts should not deter people from calling for Obama and his puppets to use the "off ramp." Anyone who thinks that the Russians are going to gratify our anti imperialism by sinking US Naval vessels is mistaken. While it is true that the bullies in the Pentagon are also cowards, what really characterises them is that they are incompetent, idle and stupid: on several occasions they have brought us to the verge of nuclear war by accident. And once the safety catches are off, and allies (particularly lunatic allies like Israel, Latvia or Poland) are mobilised the danger is greatly multiplied.

Posted by: bevin | Mar 8 2014 18:11 utc | 190

189) My guess would be that much of the trolling is "intelligent software"

What they do is - collect posts, categorize them, and feed the arguments back to you with some provocative/nutter parts they think will work in the target group to explode or discredit the forum.

So they put some arguments most people in this forum would agree with and then add stuff that discredits any person who would put that argument as a nutter.

It is a technique used in real life. Infiltrate movements with nutcases to discredit them.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 8 2014 18:28 utc | 191

hilarious that one of the most (provably) dishonest individuals to ever post on this website is now trying to cast aspersions on others

I guess he hopes that by doing so others will be inclined to ignore his lies and smear. The thing is that it will probably work too

Posted by: brb | Mar 8 2014 18:58 utc | 192

Imo, most likely candidates for gov infiltration agents, if any gov could even be bothered, which I doubt, would be

People that constantly try to imply that Russia was responsible for the Maidan Snipers

And also people that spend an enormous amount of time telling us how our leaders, currently responsible for at least 5 or 6 successful regime changes over the last few years, are just a bunch of clueles idiots, despite all the evidence to the contrary

Posted by: tsk | Mar 8 2014 19:26 utc | 193

That's very interesting somebody. On this site the troll (see above) usually manages to indicate that it is anti-Israel. On everything else it is reliably fascistic.

One of the more interesting revelations from Snowden was that the intelligence services go to considerable lengths to bust up discussions on blogs such as this one. Obviously their design is to smear the source so that when, for example, b reveals that the "indoor nuclear testing facility" in Iran is actually producing artificial diamonds, the information can be discredited as coming from "that weird website where brb (or foff or stfu) posts such hateful and idiotic crap."

Posted by: bevin | Mar 8 2014 19:27 utc | 194

180) My post on this seems to have got lost, here a summary.

40 percent of Russia's GDP is the gas/energy sector run by oligarchs close to the state/Putin. So the difference is a) that they can afford resource nationalism defended by nuclear bomb b) they have singular interests in using monopoly and state power they do not have to share with other business interests.
Suspicion is that they block a diversification of the Russian economy to keep this unique political power.

The EU has been fighting with them over prizes and the ownership of pipelines.

Gazprom is a peculiar corporate giant. It is a ministry that has become a corporation, and the fundamental question is to what extent it represents the state and business interests, respectively. The last Soviet Minister of Gas Industry Viktor Chernomyrdin formed Gazprom out of the Russian part of his ministry. It incorporated all the elements of the old ministry—production, transportation, distribution, sales, research, and even regulation. This corporation produces close to one-fifth of all natural gas in the world. Unlike oil production, which plummeted by almost half from 1987 to 1996, gas production held up well.

In the mid-1990s, a large minority share of Gazprom was privatized to managers and employees, but share sales were restricted. As a result, a considerable price differentiation evolved between domestic, restricted shares and the few internationally tradable shares. Another consequence was that all Gazprom shares were extremely cheap in relation to the purported asset values. Arguably, Gazprom remained a ministry until President Vladimir Putin changed the management in 2001.

Since 2001, the Gazprom management has been divided into three roughly equal groups. One group, led by CEO Alexei Miller, consists of young economists who worked with Miller and Putin in the mayor's office in St. Petersburg. A second group consists of KGB people from St. Petersburg, while old Gazprom hands form a third group. President Putin takes a very active interest in Gazprom's management, and its split into these three groups gives him great leeway to balance them.

My argument is that the main objective of Gazprom's new management is to boost the stock price. They have done so very successfully. The stock price has increased more than ten times in the last three years. Such a spectacular result cannot be accomplished without being focused on it, however large your assets happen to be. At present, Gazprom has a market capitalization of $250 billion, rendering it about the third most valuable company in the world. It is currently worth three times more than the most valuable German companies, Siemens and Eon.
...
Other aspects of Gazprom's activities are even less attractive. Gazprom is picking up various assets within Russia quite cheaply because of its combination of monopoly power over pipelines, pricing and exports and state regulation. Small independent gas producers have been squeezed out and forced to sell their assets cheaply to Gazprom. In East Siberia, TNK-BP, half-owned by BP, is being hindered to develop the giant Kovykta gas field in East Siberia. In the Sakhalin II project, Shell Royal Dutch is under pressure to renegotiate its Product-Sharing Agreement, presumably being forced to give a large share of its investment to Gazprom.

So far, I have discussed Gazprom in business terms, but politics remain important. One example is President Putin's recent decision that Gazprom build one or two gas pipelines to China rather than building a liquefied natural gas plant designed for exports to the United States. The bluster in negotiations with the former Soviet republic does have many political overtones.


Posted by: somebody | Mar 8 2014 19:31 utc | 195

Mr Pragma is not a troll. He is ... passionate advocate of a right wing Russian nationalist position. ... the notion that Russia's military might makes it invulnerable to US aggression is not only mistaken but dangerous. People have been saying this for more than sixty years but it is nonetheless true: in a nuclear age we live in constant danger of annihilation.

Right wing? I assume that's based one my statements re. "liberal elements" (read: zio and neocon tools) like pussy riot, navalny, etc.
At the same time highly valuing the rights of normal people and strongly disliking oligarchs then, so I assume, makes me a "national-socialist" in the eyes of some ...

Pardon me, but that's bullshit. Actually I'm not even a "Russia first!". I understand that Putin is honestly - and very brightly - understanding that any and all nations must play ball together according to well established and unbiased rules. Now, that's a credo I happily sign. And certainly not a nationlist one; sorry to disappoint.

And no, Pr. Pragma does not think Russia is invulnerable. In fact Mr. Pragma even spelled out Russias vulnerability and is still enraged about it, namely what zusa has done to Russia in pre-Putin time and even during Putins first years. They almost killed Russia.
One could, btw. learn a lot about Russia by looking at *how* she survived.

But then, invulnerable and invincible are different concepts. Invincible does not suggest but includes "almost dead but surviving".

And bevin errs (not only) once more re. zusa military. The cowards are those collected on the road and fighting there. I do not - and I occasionally said so - think the zusa officer corps are cowards and stupid on top. Some are, no doubt, some are even lose nuts; but I'm convinced that there are (professionally speaking) fine and bright zamerican officers.
But there's little those fine and intelligent officers can contribute in a regime of zio berserks and lunatics at the top and mostly bio-waste at the lower 3/4 of the ranks. Rest assured that if an intelligent human being with stars on his shoulders would speak, one wouldn't listen to him and quite possibly consider him not being true zamerican.

Returning to Russias invincibility ...

Russia meanwhile *has* well proven and highly superior gen 4 and gen 4+ jets. zusas analogues are basically misconstructed and useless. That's reality but feel free to watch some F-35 superiority bla bla videos by the very same companies who stole billions from the zamericans in the F-35 and F-22 scams.

Or, as it was mentioned here (grossly ignoring facts), look at Jachont.
If a missile is so extremely fast (> mach 2,5) its kinetic energy upon impact is similar to a micro nuke. Simple physics. Due to that speed, it's cross section and its flight path, the defense systems lead time (time needed by defense systems to realize a threat, analyse it, and compute measures against it) is longer than the missile needs to hit. Add to this a highly randomized end segment flight path making the defense systems calculations worthless. Anyone knowing about anti-missile defense techniques (and not just blabbering) will understand what's at work there.
Now, looking at all that, yes, I say that pressing a (launch) button and sinking a zusa ship is pretty much the same. Because there is only so much a defense system can do in some 15 - 50 seconds and even more so when your nice defense calculation is worthless after some seconds because that missile changed its path again.
But also because, once more, zusa relied on greedy corporations who betrayed their military again and again to please, pretty please not betray them again. The result: phalanx, a defense system that is know to be more dangerous for friends than for enemies. And, of course it's not cheap because, you see, it's a "superior" zamerican product. Yay!

Last bot not least: So, if there is lots of scandals with defense corporations overcharging and not delivering and pentagon officers putting millions in their pockets, study after study that is quickly classified shows that zusas generals are horrified by the state of their weapon systems - then I'm Russian nationalistic. Interesting concept.
When zusa basically loses wars against third rate opponents, when zusa more and more employs jsoc rather than conducting traditional wars, when zusa cuts down the military (and not for the fun of it) - then I'm Russian nationalistic. Again, interesting concept.
When zusa, not for the first time, eagerly tries to avoid a mil. confrontation than I'm Russian nationalistic and zusa has magically turned into a peace loving nation. Sure. And tomorrow we'll see obama and mc cain't spread their arms and fly above wa$hington.

Let me suggest to bevin that he gets his facts together and doesn't ignore major points I said before characterizing Russia, her mil. capabilities or myself.

And no, I have nothing bad to say about bevin other than what I just explained by arguments. Arguments, well noted, not against him but against what he said and claimed.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 8 2014 19:44 utc | 196

Let me suggest to bevin that he gets his facts together

He's only interested in facts when they help his case - otherwise he's not averse to throwing in the odd lie and smear as it suits him because protecting the image of the Left and winning the argument is what counts - in fact it often seems that in his mind those two things are the same , but then this is equally true for many like him who post here also

So labeling is very important to people like him - and "accuracy" not so much. He'll try his damnedest to label anyone with a different opinion as "Right Wing" because he thinks that will discredit them, and with the sort of sheep-like herd one finds here so often, it usually has some effect

Posted by: brb | Mar 8 2014 20:04 utc | 197

how they survived

i suggest a number of books

the magisterial john erickson's - road to berli & road to stalingrad
chris bellamy - absolute war - erickson's student, book recen & he is an officer from sandhurst
geoffrey robert's - stalin's wars - an exceptional breakthrough book

they all tell how the soviet union survived fascist agression

please do not blame bevin for things i have said or inferred, no i don't like old galicia, or western ukraine, the sons & grandsons of murderers have murder in their blood, clearly

even though i come from that area it is i not bevin who feels an absolute ambivalence towards the polish nation

& yes i am a russophile, unashamedly but i do know she is no longer the socialist motherland, but she possesses a decenct & justness that copeland has also described

i would add that the destabilisation of venezuela is no accident at this time, nor is the use of snipers, by the purschists

i hope russia defends physically crimea, but i defer to b's greater knowledge of the military consequences of such an action

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 8 2014 20:20 utc | 198

even though i come from that area it is i not bevin who feels an absolute ambivalence towards the polish nation

eh, no. sorry but I know what I saw him writing - I saw him do it before I ever had any interaction with you.

THEN I saw you and him engaging in a little Ukrainain&Polish hate-fest, like the luvverly likkle cuddly bigots you both are..

even though i come from that area

So you're not Australian or from Nantes then? Quelle surprise!
Still, at least you were honest about your bigotry, so kudos for that at least - which is more than can be said for your friend bevin.

I'd rather deal with an honest bigot than a dishonest one anyday

Posted by: brb | Mar 8 2014 20:34 utc | 199

@Somebody (#193);

First a request: please also include my name in comments which you address to me, because that way it will be easier
to follow up on your comments rather than checking the post number to verify something has been addressed to me.

Now as to the reply to your comment.

The salient feature of modern capitalism is monopoly/oligopoly. Free competition results in take over of the weaker
by the strong and sometimes merger of capitals to form larger ones (ie. centralization of capital).
US economy is monopolistic, UK's economy is monopolistic, and so is Germany's and all other developed capitalist
economies. Obviously Russia is no exception.
The direct and inevitable result of economic monopoly/oligopoly is a political oligarchy. In fact that is why
the continuous chest beating for "democracy" and "freedom of expression" by all those who believe in "liberal democracy"
(ie. democracy within the parameters of capitalism) is so utterly empty of any real content. Fact of the matter is
that in the West all the 'rights' which have been won by the society -'rights' which are being taken away
one by one in the West- are results of long and painful often bloody class struggles fought by the working class and
NOT the gifts and natural features of "liberal democracy".
So US is an oligarchy, UK is an oligarchy, and so is Germany and all other Western countries. Russia follows the same
suit (though in all due fairness I must say that the elections in Russia offer far more choices than elections in the West).

This however, does not contradict what I said regarding the existance a viable "national bourgeoisie" in Russia, with a
force to reckon with. I don't know much about gasprom, but I can give your own quotation in support for what I said:

"In East Siberia, TNK-BP, half-owned by BP, is being hindered to develop the giant Kovykta gas field in East Siberia. In the Sakhalin II project, Shell Royal Dutch is under pressure to renegotiate its Product-Sharing Agreement, presumably being forced to give a large share of its investment to Gazprom."

This is exactly what I meant by "national bourgeoisie" competing with the foreign globally dominant bourgeoisie.

Also the following (again from your own quotation) again supports what I said:

" One example is President Putin's recent decision that Gazprom build one or two gas pipelines to China rather than building a liquefied natural gas plant designed for exports to the United States."

Now you raise a very good point regarding gas/oil export constituting 40% of Russia's GDP. It may have long or medium term consequences; but I never said that
the "national bourgeoisie" will definitely win the fight in Russia. If the parts of bourgeoisie which dominate the
gas/oil industry in Russia does not try (or try and not succeed) to diversify Russian economy, it is very likely that eventually
the subservient bourgeoisie will win the day. However, there is also a good chance that the conflicting interests of
the national bourgeoisie with that of the globally dominant bourgeoisie of the West will force the Russians to do their best to diversify their economy.

Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Mar 8 2014 20:38 utc | 200

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