Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 07, 2014

Where Is Obama's Off-Ramp In This Escalation Spiral?

Obama points to the "the path of de-escalation" in Ukraine by saying:

"Let international monitors into all of Ukraine, including Crimea, to to ensure the rights of all Ukrainians are being respected, including ethnic Russians. Begin consultations between the government of Russia and Ukraine, with the participation of the international community.

"Russia would maintain its basing rights in Crimea, provided that it abides by its agreements and that it respects Ukraine's sovereignty and territory integrity.

How please could a U.S. president guarantee a contract that Ukraine would have to agree upon? Obama values "self determination" and "democracy" of a country 10,000 miles away from his so much that he is dictating what that country would have to agree upon in this or that case? Russia would be nuts to take any "guarantee" from Obama.

Obama wishes de-escalation so much that he ordered sanctions on Russian individuals and their money and pressed on European countries to do the same. Russia will retaliate with similar measures. Obama sends additional fighter jets to Lithuania and Poland and send an additional destroyer into the Black Sea. Russia will beef up its western forces. The puppet the Obama administration installed in Kiev added to the "de-escalation"by inviting NATO to Kiev and by promising to sign parts of an EU association agreement even before new elections in the Ukraine can take place. Polls have shown that there is no Ukrainian majority for either. Countering the Russian parliament votes to accept the Crimea into its federation.

If Obama and his puppet "Yuk" stay on this "path of de-escalation" the U.S. will be at DEFCON-1 in just a few weeks.

Obama said he would offer Russia an "off-ramp". But that "off-ramp" includes his demand to Russia to recognize the unelected, illegitimate puppet government in Kiev. Russia will surely never agree to that. Tit for tat will thereby continue. Where is Obama's own off-ramp in this escalation spiral?

Posted by b on March 7, 2014 at 15:46 UTC | Permalink

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Where Is Obama's Off-Ramp In This Escalation Spiral?

There's no strategy..Like I said earlier, things are not going according to script.The whole thing was supposed to be a "peaceful" overthrow of a "brutal dictator". As that wasn't happening, they spiced things up a bit by unleashing their Syrian, Libyan strategy - snipers, agent provocateurs etc.
That strategy somewhat worked, but the blwoback's worse than the cure.

In the meantime, in Crimea, it seems NATO's way out is to stir up the Tartars to make things ungovernable over there. Turkey is making sure of this. Dangerous times ahead.

Posted by: Zico | Mar 7 2014 15:58 utc | 1

Donetsk Invasion by Blackwater:

Posted by: Johan Meyer | Mar 7 2014 16:05 utc | 2

Kissinger had an interesting comment, “ he would never permit the head of state to directly contact another head of state in a crisis.” he said, they both likely have major egos and if they are not able to resolve their differences, then you have no one else to appeal to. seems, he recognized the dead end for US.

Same with Bob Gates, he felt his republicans 'have big mouth' and need to 'shut up' and also the administration has gone a bridge too far.

Now the MSM is portraying the need to help Ukraine financially (with the money they don't have). perhaps the public opinion not wanting to spend money will be their saviors (ala Syria).

The cow boy diplomacy found out the other side is a faster draw, now they have to drop their gun.

Posted by: Rd. | Mar 7 2014 16:27 utc | 3

Unladylike language on my part :

Where in the he-- does the US Administration, no matter who is the resident at the WH, believe that they are top shit in this world?

Telling another country that has nuclear power what to do- I guess too full of themaselves at either Foggy Bottom or the West Wing. Now the poodle at the NATO HQ is spewing what the US is dictating.

Do as I say not as I do.

Posted by: Yul | Mar 7 2014 16:29 utc | 4

OSCE tools again blocked by pro-Russian forces.

Hey, O-man et al, maybe if you and the rest of your gang of fucking war-criminal nutters would stop insulting everyone with your "we're just trying to help people" etc nonsense then everyone could start actually discussing some "off-ramps" or whatever your focus-grouped term du jour is.

Seriously, as anyone who's dated a psycho knows: There's no reasoning with a sick mind.

Unless someone in the West wants to start demonstrating some sanity by at least mouthing words that have some correlation to reality - as b says - there's not going to be any deescalation.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Mar 7 2014 16:36 utc | 5

I agree, b. There is no deescalation in the works. It is going to get increasingly messy. Proof of which is the announcement by Right Sector that it will re-brand and enter the upcoming elections. This is from the NYT story on Russia's acceptance of Crimea's vote to secede:

In Kiev, the leader of the Right Sector movement, Dmytro Yarosh, will run for president of Ukraine, the chairman of the local branch of the movement, Andriy Tarasenko, said on Friday. The nationalist group, which was important in the fight for Kiev’s Independence Square, will rename itself at a congress in a week and participate in elections at all levels, Mr. Tarasenko said.
Right Sector is currently opposed to integration with the EU, yet apparently they are, post-putsch, one of the more popular groups. The whole thing is a mess. The coup government is already a shambles. Soon it won't even be in a position to accept the IMF bailout.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Mar 7 2014 16:42 utc | 6

Obama pretending to de-escalate while he escalates:

USS Truxtun is heading into the Black Sea. No doubt it's there to spy on the Russian fleet in Sevastopol.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 7 2014 16:43 utc | 7

God , I hate myself for not having believed in those weird conspiracy theories , that obama is a product of an Illuminati breeding program and that merkel is the biological daughter of hitler.
How can there be a off-ramp for Obama if the plan is to escalate at any rate , I am afraid there's no plan B in this scenario....

Posted by: Sufi | Mar 7 2014 16:52 utc | 8

@8 Sufi, two things:

One, most conspiracy theories are easily debunked and are invariably created for entertainment purposes only, but we do know there's such a thing as organized crime, so more than five people really can keep a secret, although the phone intercepts are showing that our people at State aren't very good at it.

Two, there probably isn't a Plan B. Think Hanlon's Razor.

Posted by: Jon Lester | Mar 7 2014 16:55 utc | 9

@6 right sector rebranding

lol, how they're gonna re-name? maybe spin the democratic/freedom/liberty/human rights/ name generator?

Posted by: peter radiator | Mar 7 2014 16:58 utc | 10

USS Truxton passed through the Dardanelles two hours ago. Navy destroyer USS Truxtun crosses Dardanelles en route to Black Sea. Should be an interesting sight from Istanbul right about now.

Posted by: lysias | Mar 7 2014 16:58 utc | 11

@6 Maybe Right Sector will be bringing in people from France's Front National as consultants in how to make an extreme-Right party with ties to wartime collaboration with the Nazis respectable...

Posted by: Snake Arbusto | Mar 7 2014 17:06 utc | 12

Let's try to imagine those "free" elections in Ukraine. Ok, Right Sector is now ... whatever, and they'll be running against Svoboda, and who else? Perhaps the neo-Nazi vote will be split? Or just My Oligarch against Your Oligarch? Of course, that assumes there won't be US-style voter suppression, voter caging and plain old fraud, both by individuals and through control of the machines/counting. Then add the presence of the goons assigned to "oversee" the various military, plus Blackwater, and whomever/whatever group is assigned by who -- the EU, NATO, UN? -- to oversee this fiasco. Pardon me, I'm American, so I don't know which group(s) would be sent in, but I do know that if I were Ukrainian this is one election I'd sit out, if I could.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 7 2014 17:09 utc | 13

This is an extremely dangerous situation that Tit-for-Tat doesn't help. A different game theory strategy needs to be applied before these leaders decide on mutual suicide.

Posted by: ess emm | Mar 7 2014 17:23 utc | 14

Moon of Alabama - Where barflies get together.

Tell me about it. It's like there's a world of escalating insanity out there, and I've come in and closed the door behind me. I can't believe the series of events that has unfolded in Ukraine and the position taken by the US and EU. More so probably than at any time during the Syrian conflict. Or maybe I should come to expect it.

Every time I see 'Yaks' strut around and giving what he believes are inherently profound speeches, but which are actually little more than cringe inducing sound bites, I want to punch him in the mouth. Yet into the warm embrace of the US and EU he goes.

Claiming that he is legitimate and a Crimean referendum is illegitimate; sentiments echoed across Western capitals, and propagated by their media whores.

Jesus wept.

I'll be over by the jukebox. Tears for Fears, anyone?

Posted by: Pat Bateman | Mar 7 2014 17:30 utc | 15

Turkish Press now has photo of USS Truxtun offshore in Istanbul, apparently two hours ago. USS Truxtun in Istanbul .

Posted by: lysias | Mar 7 2014 17:30 utc | 16

Big pro-russian demonstrations in Russia and Ukraine today

where is the support by eu, us, nato now?

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 7 2014 17:36 utc | 17

I think the US will de-escalate only when the EU gets a backbone. A more interesting question is "What does the US have on everyone in the EU that gets it to act against its own interest?" What's the matter with Kans--EU?

Posted by: mrd | Mar 7 2014 17:36 utc | 18

I wonder if Hollywood is getting around to making a movie of all this.
Would like to see who gets to play the lead parts
Jon Voight/Harrison Ford/Tom Cruise/god knows who else.
and what their take will be: was it a Revolution or a coup, for example?
looks like it might end up being a comedy....or not.

Posted by: chris m | Mar 7 2014 17:38 utc | 19

Black Sea Tatars

Leaders of the Majlis and the Mufti of Crimea are blacklisted for death

Crimea (Black Sea Tatar) Nov. 2, 2009 - Presumably in 2005 by their arrival in the Ukraine and the refugee status of certain nationals from Iraq, Uzbekistan and other Central Asian republics, began to form the radical Islamic movement Al-Takfir-wal-Hijra (“The accusation of unbelief”). The leader of this organization is a kind of “Abu Abdurrahman”, or “red Arabic”, which in 2006 was granted refugee status and then citizenship of Ukraine and lived in the Poltava region.

Islamic radicals test ground in calm Ukraine - 2013
Crimean Tatar Leader Tells People To Stay At Home, Avoid Confrontations
Chechens Are Being Drawn Into the Conflict in Ukraine

Posted by: Oui | Mar 7 2014 17:41 utc | 20

If Yatsenyuk is in fact a scientologist, I guess we know who Tom Cruise will play. And exactly why Hollywood would want to make the movie.

Posted by: lysias | Mar 7 2014 17:42 utc | 21


As I understand it, the USS Truxton was long planned to be there.

A Turkish diplomatic source confirmed that a U.S. warship had got permission to pass the strait, but it would not be a nuclear aircraft carrier as suggested in some media. The U.S warship [presumably the Truxton] meets the standards specified by the 1936 Montreux Convention in terms of weight, the source added.

Previous report said the USS George H.W. Bush nuclear aircraft carrier [far exceeds 45,000 tons] would transit the strait en route to the Black Sea.

The Bush is currently in Greece and will not enter the Black Sea. (My nephew is on his first navy assignment on the Bush.)

Posted by: Hamburger | Mar 7 2014 17:46 utc | 22

@18 Perhaps a new government in France will make a difference?

Posted by: dh | Mar 7 2014 17:49 utc | 23

@22: Note that that Xinhua report is from just a couple of days ago. If there were long plans to send the Truxtun to the Black Sea, I was unaware of them (as a retired naval officer, I am a subscriber to and regular reader of the Navy Times).

The U.S. can't send an aircraft carrier into the Black Sea without violating the Montreux Convention.

Posted by: lysias | Mar 7 2014 17:49 utc | 24

@23: If the French local elections at the end of the month are as much of a disaster for the Socialists as Hollande's polls now indicate, and if the National Front does very well, I wonder if that will have an effect on French foreign policy.

Posted by: lysias | Mar 7 2014 17:52 utc | 25

The more I think about the conflict in Ukraine the less worried I am. Remember the war in Chechnya or in Georgia? Do you see how those countries are doing now, under what leadership?

Honestly - when and where was the last time Mr. Putin lost?

Over and out.

Posted by: ProPeace | Mar 7 2014 17:56 utc | 26

Now making a port visit in Piraeus, Greece:

George H.W. Bush

Posted by: Hamburger | Mar 7 2014 17:56 utc | 27


On 6 March 2014, the U.S. Navy confirmed that the USS Truxtun left Greece on the way to the Black Sea and was going to conduct training with the Romanian and Bulgarian navies.

Hm. "confirmed". Maybe someone could ask a Romanian or Bulgarian.

Has the US ever violated the M convention? (Altho I would think being that close the Bush wouldn't need to.)

Posted by: Hamburger | Mar 7 2014 18:09 utc | 28

@27-wrong link

one of the world’s largest warships:

This one should work.

Posted by: Hamburger | Mar 7 2014 18:20 utc | 29

If the juke box is good enough you'll find this tune

Posted by: Mina | Mar 7 2014 18:25 utc | 30

Or rather, that link for the pics, and this one for the interpretation

Posted by: Mina | Mar 7 2014 18:32 utc | 31

Marine le Pen has become very pro Putin, even openly, after the Syrian "spring"
but her father and the 'old guard' is probably closer -personally- to Right Sector.
Anyway, the NF is no functional party: they cannot even gather enough people to form a full electoral list in several places, and among their supposed supports are many many crypto monarchists (the catholic traditionalists who actually hate anything orthodox), so they are just a big patchwork of opportunists, nothing else.
The election in two weeks is only a local one (the mayors and local counsels). The european MPs election, which will be held in May in all the EU countries, will probably be even worse

Posted by: Mina | Mar 7 2014 18:38 utc | 32

It's an indication of an absence of real support that the Kiev cabal has now employed Blackwater mercenaries.
No doubt they are being paid out of the US treasury.
But who are they? In all likelihood they will be mercenaries already in Ukraine, already working for the coup as hired thugs, including veterans of the Chechen wars, IDF members in mufti and the full range of SAS, Special Forces and other scum.

Posted by: bevin | Mar 7 2014 18:44 utc | 33

Does anyone know where a certain video of a member of the Berkut being interviewed with English subs can be found?

He is standing outside on the sidewalk, I think, and describing how bad the situation is in Kiev.

Posted by: J. Bradley | Mar 7 2014 19:03 utc | 34

O/T but not really, since it speaks to the American military. I just read this for the first time and didn't really think I could be more appalled than I already am:

We live in a rural area that supplies a lot of these troops, and especially since Bush lowered the entrance standards, a WHOLE LOT of these guys are truly the bottom of the barrel. I'm guessing they're encouraged to end up contractors (hence, not the VA's responsibility, and even more importantly, hence they can then wreak their havoc anywhere but home).

Posted by: Nora | Mar 7 2014 19:16 utc | 35

My representative in Congress was one of the few to vote against the $1 billion in loan guarantees for the Maidan regime, and I've just sent him a note of thanks. I'll try writing my senators later; it might not do any good, but I have to try.

Posted by: Jon Lester | Mar 7 2014 19:48 utc | 36

Here's the list, for those curious:

Posted by: Jon Lester | Mar 7 2014 19:54 utc | 37

I have to assume that b created this blog thread purely for the purpose of entertainment.
Because out there in reality obamas "thoughts" or demands are completely irrelevant.

So, thanks, b, for an entertaining peek into the mental asylum for the highly criminal.

And now to something comparatively important: Will Putin want another cup of tea tonight or will he prefer water?

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 7 2014 19:57 utc | 38

Thank you Jon @ 36. My Congressman, Sunny Jim McDermott, sadly, voted Yes. I promptly emailed him my disappointment. For all those U.S. citizens who frequent this blog, take the time to click on the link that Jon provides and contact your Rep. I know it seems fruitless, but consider it a form of discipline, like taking the stairs instead of the elevator.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Mar 7 2014 20:11 utc | 39

@Nora # 34

I read the first 30 or 40 comments of the WP article you posted , truly touching and very sad.
In the last decade especially after 9/11 and after several wars of aggression , endless information and disinformation wars and 'zillion' of other bleak events , it is quite difficult to spare energy and time to delve into such an unbelievable story of dumped ashes somewhere in the prairie of the 'home of the brave and land of the free' .
I am speechless . All the current horrible world suffering , because a bunch of 'devil-worshipping 'Zio-Fascists want us at any cost to quaff the fable of 'exquisiteness', 'exceptionalism' ,'indispensability' etc., pissing on dead bodies and throwing their own soldiers in the garbage , truly disgusting.

Posted by: Sufi | Mar 7 2014 20:13 utc | 40

Oh Gosh, no!

I'm deeply worried that the congressman has committed suicide after receiving an email of disappointment.

Why don't send zamericans emails of disappointment to the ukrainian nazis? After all, sending an email of disappointment is utterly to one kind of criminal isn't that much different from sending it to an another criminal. And it seems to mean sth. to zusa citizens.

No, I'm not attacking Mike Maloney as a person! I'm just flabbergasted. If "sending an email of disappointment" is about the most powerful form of political participation enjoyed by concerned citizens in the criminal zusa regime - and it is as Occupy clearly demonstrated - then they migh start to seriously think about their "best system in the world".

And, forgive me, one must be utterly delusional to seriously believe that a zusa congressman has any significance whatsoever outside the zus.

And now, I'll quietly but impatiently wait for another extreeeemly important event: todays fart of the zus "media".

Tomorrow: First doggies impressions of the first ladies' garment, ukraine, the planet Mars, and other excessively important and mind boggling news from wa$hington!

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 7 2014 20:28 utc | 41

again bevin,if it was not so horrific, it'd be a farce

it seems the ukrainian state does not possess a willing army, & i can"t see how kiev can possibly organise anything approaching an election

fukushima is a reality, but also a metaphor, the empire is in chaos 24/24, in anything other than mass murder or indiscriminate killing, they have so few skills at all

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 7 2014 20:37 utc | 42

Mr. P, I know you're angry but what would you have us do? For a few years mid-century, it looked like we might start righting some of our internal wrongs, and then, possibly, stop one of our Godawful wars, and then... Right now those of us who see this, and want so deeply to stop it, can protest (and get arrested, ignored or both), write letters (and receive form letters in return), write letters to the editor (and get ignored or misunderstood by our highly brainwashed fellow citizens), and every once in a very rare while get enough citizens together to effect some tiny bit of very local change. I'd truly love to hear other ideas -- we've been trying to figure this out since before we invaded Iraq but it's very lonely here in the US of A having a couple of brain cells that connect.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 7 2014 20:44 utc | 43

Actually if you go read your Declaration of Independence, i think several possible remedies needed are contained therein.

Not much on the subject of "Letter Writing" in there though, to my knowledge.

Just a thought, but perhaps 'Letter Writing" is not a viable solution to your national problems?

Posted by: brb | Mar 7 2014 21:06 utc | 44

It is pathetic, Mr. Pragma. I know. But I consider it worth a couple minutes of my time. Is it as meaningful an activity as reading your comments? Absolutely not. But by communicating with one's congressman or congresswoman (and in your communication you include a query), your Rep is obligated to reply. And in replying, a record is created; hence, the Rep at least has to put into words his or her nonsensical justification. So there it is, not much, and not the only thing to be done, but I think it is better than being silent.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Mar 7 2014 21:08 utc | 45

And now, I'll quietly but impatiently wait for another extreeeemly important event: todays fart of the zus "media".

Oh don't worry, another blonde US Airhead will probaly resign from RT soon. The chattering classes will chatter away on that for a few days at least

Posted by: brb | Mar 7 2014 21:09 utc | 46

And in replying, a record is created; 

And who would want to miss out on an opportunity to end up on an actionlist of anti-Imperialist pro-terrawrist "complainers" in the near future :-)

Posted by: brb | Mar 7 2014 21:13 utc | 47

My Congressman happens to be running for the Senate this year, and one of his primary rivals voted in favor of the aid package, so that affords another possible way to keep the issue alive.

We do get occasional results if enough Americans weigh in at once; that's part of what stopped US military intervention in Syria last summer (recall that David Cameron's authorization was voted down in the UK, before Putin came up with the diplomatic solution and our Congress was set to vote). Americans do at least know that the stakes are higher this time, so we just have to convince enough people to speak out before matters get worse.

Posted by: Jon Lester | Mar 7 2014 21:19 utc | 48

bug off, brb. I knew the words of that document, and its real history, 60 years ago. And was a *real* Alinsky-type organizer, in Chicago, two generations before Obama was planted there to do nothing like that. And Mike, if I'd bothered to keep them, I'd have a mile-high stack of carefully-worded-to-say-NOTHING responses from all of our various congresscritters. What they DO do, however, is TALLY phone-calls but I can tell you there's a party-line to which ALL the Rethugs and most of the Dems adhere, so they only use those tallies to craft yet more carefully-worded-to-say-NOTHING responses if ever they're called on to do so. I might also add that there are -- maybe -- five people in our township who see what's going on, and of them my elderly husband is probably the best shot. So.... ball's in your court, but don't assume I've spent my life just wringing my hands. If I bore you, I'll be happy to shut up, but I really would like to know if anyone DOES have any good suggestions.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 7 2014 21:21 utc | 49

Nora (42)

First, again, that was *not* an attack on the person Mike Maloney!

And yes, you citizens can't do much against your regime and it series of crimes.

But there is sth. you *can* do. You can sit down and activate your brain cells. You can start to see the reality. Seeing things they way they are is the first step.
And then you can start to teach others. I don't mean political activism; I'm talking about asking a question here and there. I'm talking of correcting perspective shifted completely out of the realm of reason. It's not about activism, it's about persons, persons in your daily environment.

It's about piercing the mindless and relentless happyness spattering of being proud to be an merican, of america being the land of the free, about democracy and all that blabla.

I'm afraid one of the more unpleasant steps the few americans that are like you not completely dumbed down will be to recognize and realize that you are not surounded by human beings but by mindless, educated to be greedy, mindless, and shockingly superficial blabberbots. And, Pardon me, you 99% are the batteries energizing the 1%. For instance by writing emails to them.

You know what a congressman reads, when you send him an email, no matter what you wrote in it?
He reads "Sir, Mam, I hereby inform you to still be an fully and successfully remote controlled voting, working, and consuming-bot". That's what he reads. And he is right, sorry.

Strength, Putin and the Russian system have understood that, isn't something you can buy or consume or get by a pol. party, the army, capitalism or communism - it's sth. you must grow and take care of and nourish. And it's something almost all political systems desperately and necessarily need to and want to suppress.

Good luck to you. I know that someone with a brain and a soul is awfully lonesome in the zus.
Maybe it sometimes helps you a little bit that even people like myself who despise zamericans to an extreme extent and hardly consider them human can and do differentiate and in some weird way even are ready to support you. ;)

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 7 2014 21:21 utc | 50

Jon Lester I agree with you, good job contacting the congressman!

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 7 2014 21:23 utc | 51

@b,of course Zobama can't deescalate after all those years of living in a virtual world with a virtual reality bombing the shit out of our countries with their self righteous exceptionalism!!Deescalate would mean to recognize that the USA =a non nation from its inception built on the genocide of while civilization has become by its free will and greed a third rate country with a collapsing infrastructure,a moribund in coma for a long time pumped up by the eternal printing of their toilet paper the $ with which they force the whole planet to wipe it asses .Deescalate would mean to be honest for the first time since their creation and realize that they messed it all up and they are bankrupt…on all level.Deescalate would mean to say to their masters ,the Finance and Corporation conglomerate to shut up because to continue so is the surest way to the collective suicide of Zusa.
To the one who accused me of desiring a world war in my post to Mr.Pragma(in the previous blog of b) whom i admire for his very sensitive analysis and for his anger ,don't take your dream for a reality ,I have grand children and want for them a future.Nobody talked about a nuclear war there are many ways Russia or its very loyal allies,Syria ,Iran and Hezbollah to name just a few could make zusa's life hell like hitting zusa in a number of very vulnerable places for its hegemoniacal fury like in the persian gulf ,or around Bab el Mandeb or the core of zusa's heart the zionist entity.And this to name just a few

Posted by: Nobody | Mar 7 2014 21:37 utc | 52

Perhaps you should read it again, it's all there Norah

    That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. . . .

    . . . But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Seems I was wrong because it actually does say something about letter writing in there too

    In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury.

Seems to me they thought Letter Writin' had not much to recommend it

Posted by: brb | Mar 7 2014 21:40 utc | 53

whole civilization ,sorry.
And then their is the Afghan card in waiting as a trump card.How on earth they think to extricate themselves from there without Russia's help?

Posted by: Nobody | Mar 7 2014 21:40 utc | 54

Mr P, first off, no congresscritter at any level reads his or her own email -- and their staffers are, quite frankly, bots. As I said, when you call, whoever answers WILL tally that call, but don't waste your time trying to reason with them: it ain't gonna happen. Secondly, while I admit I've spent most of my life focused on our many domestic ills, I figure I'm pretty well up to speed on the rest of what we now are -- always room for more details of course but believe me, I've got the gist of it. Which is, in short, we're doing to the rest of the world what we damned near perfected here on Native Americans, both hemispheres, before the start of the 20th century. And I will tell you that we have tried especially hard since 9/11 to find ways of reaching our fellow citizens -- and I'm an organizer, back in the day I trained trainers to reach people by utilizing what they really cared about -- and we have yet to reach anyone brainwashed by Fox News and their local mega-church, the "Liberals" have been basically blinded by the Holocaust industry, and everyone else is into the Kardashians, football and other similar diversions. What remains of the American mind is all but hermetically sealed.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 7 2014 21:42 utc | 55

Oh, and Mr. P, I do appreciate your support. We really would like to do more, and keep trying to figure out what, or how.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 7 2014 21:44 utc | 56

the "Liberals" have been basically blinded by the Holocaust industry, a

one could probably thank people like Saul Alinsky for that

just sayin

Posted by: brb | Mar 7 2014 21:48 utc | 57

LOVELY prescription, brb, I know it well.

And you would accomplish it how? (Let me add that our Teabaggers and other such "patriots" mainly want The South To Rise Again -- not the kind of comrades or country I want.)

Posted by: Nora | Mar 7 2014 21:49 utc | 58

# 56 cut the ad hominem crap -- you gonna attack me too? More to the point, what exactly have YOU done?

Posted by: Nora | Mar 7 2014 21:53 utc | 59

Turning off all tv and radio would be a start

After that stop listening to people like Alinsky, who really only wanted to destroy your society anyway, not help it, so that his group or the children of his group might gain power, which it/they did under the neo-cons

Posted by: brb | Mar 7 2014 21:54 utc | 60

Hey, don't ask fer answers and then bitch just cos they ain't the answers you wanted.


some people

Posted by: brb | Mar 7 2014 21:56 utc | 61

@57 Let's not forget your average Teabagger probably sees Putin as a Russki commie dictator.

Posted by: dh | Mar 7 2014 21:58 utc | 62

Let me ask you again, brb: what exactly have YOU done?

Posted by: Nora | Mar 7 2014 21:59 utc | 63

Good god ,saw that block of ice,Yats,out of hollywood bad east euro casting centarl.He was saying the only countries who will recognise Crimea are,north korea ah ah and syria.Oh and venezuela.Did you hear me noodleman?.That is worth somsing no?

Posted by: Dagon | Mar 7 2014 22:00 utc | 64

@54 Nora

Please tell everyone you know to vote for a non-intereventionist. Unfortunately, Ron Paul won't be running again and his son is not half the politician his father was, but he is a non-interventionist, except for the fact that he's in the Republican Party. YUK and he did go to Israel last year to suck up to Zionists.

The problem is also that the vote is fixed in the primaries and even in the election. The vote counting was fixed against Ron Paul.

The U.S. is instigating fake revolutions to expand its tranny and hegemony, but honestly the country that most needs a REVOLUTION IS THE U.S.!

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 7 2014 22:02 utc | 65

Well to mention just one thing:
I once helped organise a protest which i knew would develop into a riot due to cop over reaction, and drunk football fans, then i helped organise the protester side in the battle, (we won by the way)

That sparked off a week of riots which eventually culminated in the right wing city gov't capitulating on ALL points of contention, and then losing the next election to the left

Now that we done the Alinsky-dick-waverey when can we start the "i'm-more-radical-than-you-are" pissing contest?

Posted by: brb | Mar 7 2014 22:09 utc | 66

Mr Pragma,

Americans are a very sick and debilitated people. We get it. A lot of us here actually are Americans and are surrounded by reminders of it on a constant basis.

But I've lost count the number of times I've had to skim over your

'It's about piercing the mindless and relentless happyness spattering of being proud to be an merican, of america being the land of the free, about democracy and all that blabla.'

or similar paragraphs. I've never seen anyone here indulging in those sentiments, not really.

Posted by: L Bean | Mar 7 2014 22:16 utc | 67

@64 kalithea Ron Paul was great on foreign policy -- he really, truly gets it -- and also the Fed. He really is racist though, and Rand is Rethug (hence Neo-Con and racist). And yes, to our paucity of choices. The Democratic Party, always a (very) mixed bag, lost both its Southern Conservative wing AND any true Leftish it might have had just faded away back in the 1960's over the fight over Open Housing in the (gasp!) North, and then those various assassinations. We watched it happen. The worst of the situation now is that while the Rethugs have a bit of a pipeline to draw in new candidates, there is nothing like that for Progressives/Liberals/Dems. So even on the local level, it's hard to get someone into any office from which they might then proceed unless (does this sound familiar?) they've got donors with very deep pockets. I believe elsewhere you call them Oligarchs. ;~) I.e., we're really in the same boat everyone else is, only most of us neither know it, nor care.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 7 2014 22:16 utc | 68

brb You win. I've never organized a soccer riot.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 7 2014 22:18 utc | 69


Well noted, I say this in a friendly voice ...

You may know a lot - of details. One thing to understand is that this is a part of your jail. If I bombard you with situations which you are trying to grasp and to analyze then I control you to a (not small) degree.

Let me offer a hint. The "god" of israel has many, many names and one is free to call him whatever one pleases. Just one name, his real name, "el shaddai" (Satan) is to be kept hidden.

Now, who or what is Lucifer?
(And let me note that *your* religious beliefs (or lack thereof) is not relevant in that regard because it's about what makes them tick, not you).

Usually we here sth. about a "light bringer", often compared to Prometheus (and such painted as friend of men). That's wrong. Lucifer means "light maker" or, more modern "projector". And again you see one of the core threats: Lies, deceptions and, most importantly, a thousand images, so as to distract from the one that counts, truth.

That is one of the core mechanisms that you will see again and again.

Let me introduce another concept, that of a daemon. When a small girl is afraid in the dark cellar then of daemons, i.e. not existing by themselves "evil beings" that exist only in terms of a structure and need fear to come into some kind of existence.

Combine the two and you see some important basic structures.

Yes, it's just lowly clerks, if that, who read your emails. But that's just one part of the story. Another part is that *real feelings* went into those letters; anger, disappointment, hope, etc. And those feelings feed them and, at the same time, this energy of you is wasted.

Again, this isn't about this or that religion and certainly not about yours. It's, however, about their religion or, if you prefer that way of putting it, their principles guiding them.

Back to Lucifer. he is all about projecting a 1000 images of any kind, "nice" one to dssuce and lure, ugly ones to create fear. But there is more to it. His real goal is something else, a mechanism you already saw regarding his name. It's to make you see a 1.000 things - except one; the purpose behind the superficial purposes is to hide truth, to make it untangible.

This can, of course, be no more than a very short excursion. But I'm certain that you are already seeing many mechanisms you experience in politics, business, and everyday life.

Don't waste any time or energy fighting within their system. You'll only get lost within images behind images behind images on a stage they created and control completely. *No matter* what you do in their system; the mere fact of acting within the system already fulfills their main target.

They have weaknesses, too. A major one being that they can't act out and by themselves. Like with the girl in the cellar; the daemon can not do anything in this reality by itself; it will need the small girls fear as fuel and projection area.

The reason Putin wins all those little skirmishes is not merely intelligence or having been trained by KGB. It's way more and deeper. And, more importantly for us as persons, it's nothing miraculous but sth. that each and every one of us carry in ourselves, too. Although unfortunately most of us have forgotten it already as children.

So, now everyone feel free to consider me insane. And I will laugh and calmly say "Wait and see".

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 7 2014 22:19 utc | 70

Scraaatch my last comment. Well not, entirely. Just the part where I quoted you out of context.

I'm just saying we hear you dude, you don't have to shout.

Posted by: L Bean | Mar 7 2014 22:19 utc | 71

"Letter writing" would fall into the category of "petitioning" which has always been-in Russia as well as in the Anglo Saxon world- a very useful means beginning political action. It is perfectly reasonable to preface more robust forms of opposition by calling upon one's "representative" to make representations. And giving notice that we regard the government as ours to control.

Some of us need to grow up: the truth is that the political situation is dire, not irretrievable but very difficult, and the way out of it, the way to build a mass movement for democracy or self rule, begins with self respect and respect for our fellows. In terms of this blog that means sensible, respectful consultation and discussion.

The reality is that after a revolutionary Civil War featuring the invasions of more than a dozen foreign armies, generations of intense pressure, the vast calamities of the Second World War, the need for constant vigilance and a herculean investment in means of military defence and deterrence, during the Cold War. And after the tragedy of the plundering of the exploded Soviet Union, Russia is desperately weakened. It is very vulnerable to those threatening it and its people.

And it is as well to realise these things: even the Chechen war cost Russia a great deal and many thousand lives. Even the response to Georgia's calculated provocations strained the Russian military. Just as the Ukraine' debilitated by oligarchs plundering it, cannot mobilise any forces to defend itself, so Russia, tough much better placed still suffers from the heavy blows that it has absorbed in the past few decades. Its economy still suffers from the sudden amputation of Central Asian and eastern European limbs.

The current governing regime involves, once again, a sacrifice of popular living standards to shore up the military and to keep the oligarchs and their financial partners happy. This adds to the weakness of Russia, as do malnutrition, alcoholism and other symptoms of the inevitable poverty to be found in a country which has been systematically robbed and is still being drained of its wealth.

I don't doubt that even a wounded, hungry Russia will defend itself ably against the jackals working for the United States but such a defence will be costly.

The mythological world in which Mr Pragma's armchair is set, in which Russian anti-ship missiles sink American fleets at the pressing of a few buttons, Russian Special Forces march, like supermen, through every obstacle. And Putin, besides whom Bismarck is a dwarf and Lenin a nonentity, this new Peter the Great on stilts, is always several moves ahead of his enemies. This fantasy land, fertilised by batshit, is not the world in which we live and in which the gravely threatened population of Ukraine, and Russia live.

It is a pity. It would be nice to sit back as if this were a video game and wait for the good guys to prevail-be the odds whatever they are. But it isn't, the sanctions against Russia will hurt, they will hurt ordinary Russians and the rich, who will be hurt most, will pass down the costs in spades.

Perhaps this will lead to a revival of egalitarianism, perhaps, reduced to war with the west, war communism will re-appear, all society's resources mobilised, the spirit of the Red Army revived. Perhaps such an example will set Europe on fire, burning out the exploiters, rallying the young, the unemployed, the exploited and the humiliated, the immigrants, the poor, the debtors, the slumdwellers and the precariat, behind the cause of post capitalism, whatever it will be, and planetary rehabilitation.

If so that will be fine with me. But right now, Russia is in a desperate position, threatened by the forces of evil, which govern us. And the way to assist Russia in its principled defence of decency and its opposition to fascists on its borders must include, on our part, making it plain that we believe that our governments are wrong.
And we believe that this is a message that we can carry to our neighbours and which will resonate in our communities. And that this will make life difficult for warmongers and their cheering sections.

Mr Pragma confides that it is his belief that this blog was founded for b's entertainment. My guess is that it was designed to spread information and to publish it, in the belief that in these times to tell the truth is indeed a revolutionary action.

On the other hand, what do the cynics among us suggest, apart from leaping on any post which looks as if it might be easy to tear apart, and trying to shock us by dancing on the edges of the burning pit of racism., not to mention shaking their fists at enemies beyond the horizon?

Posted by: bevin | Mar 7 2014 22:20 utc | 72

Slightly OT, fellow supposed Nobel Prize nominee (along with Putin) Snowden psyop continues with his EU interview today. Some interesting answers among the rest of this warmed over stale info and grandstanding:

The first were well-meaning but hushed warnings not to "rock the boat," for fear of the sort of retaliation that befell former NSA whistleblowers like Wiebe, Binney, and Drake. All three men reported their concerns through the official, approved process, and all three men were subject to armed raids by the FBI and threats of criminal sanction. Everyone in the Intelligence Community is aware of what happens to people who report concerns about unlawful but authorized operations.

The second were similarly well-meaning but more pointed suggestions, typically from senior officials, that we should let the issue be someone else's problem. Even among the most senior individuals to whom I reported my concerns, no one at NSA could ever recall an instance where an official complaint had resulted in an unlawful program being ended, but there was a unanimous desire to avoid being associated with such a complaint in any form.

Do you feel you had exhausted all avenues before taking the decision to go public?

- Yes. I had reported these clearly problematic programs to more than ten distinct officials, none of whom took any action to address them. As an employee of a private company rather than a direct employee of the US government, I was not protected by US whistleblower laws, and I would not have been protected from retaliation and legal sanction for revealing classified information about lawbreaking in accordance with the recommended process.

Wait, wait, worked for the CIA, the NSA and were working as a contractor for the NSA and supposedly reported how ILLEGAL you felt all of these programs were to SENIOR INDIVIDUALS yet I'm supposed to think that this did NOT set off a series of flags - like in the other cases you mentioned - concerning your employment among said senior officials? But you had previously told us that you had joined Booz Allen Hamilton with express purpose of stealing secrets and whistle-blowing. So, I'm to believe that you thought the best way to go about this was to tell senior NSA officials that you were not happy with the legal implications of what you were doing BEFORE you started stealing secrets? Gee, that sure doesn't make me wonder about what you were allowed to steal and/or your near miraculous escape from justice, huh? I mean, really.

Can you confirm cyber-attacks by the NSA or other intelligence agencies on EU institutions, telecommunications providers such as Belgacom and SWIFT, or any other EU-based companies?

- Yes. I don't want to outpace the efforts of journalists, here, but I can confirm that all documents reported thus far are authentic and unmodified, meaning the alleged operations against Belgacom, SWIFT, the EU as an institution, the United Nations, UNICEF, and others based on documents I provided have actually occurred. And I expect similar operations will be revealed in the future that affect many more ordinary citizens.

He doesn't want to outpace - funny, that implies there's actually a pace to the geologically timed release of the documents by GG and others - JOURNALISTS? FFS, this kid worked for the NSA, CIA and loads of other contractors but I'm supposed to believe he's naive enough to believe in the f*cking MSM?

Do you still plan to release more files, and have you disclosed or been asked to disclose any information regarding the content of these files to Chinese and Russian authorities or any names contained within them?

As stated previously, there are many other undisclosed programs that would impact EU citizens' rights, but I will leave the public interest determinations as to which of these may be safely disclosed to responsible journalists in coordination with government stakeholders. I have not disclosed any information to anyone other than those responsible journalists. Thank you.

RESPONSIBLE JOURNALISTS?!!!!! Holy shit,man, if you wanted to talk about unicorns you may well have said honest non-Zionist American politicians but responsible journos? GMAFB

What is your relationship with the Russian and Chinese authorities, and what are the terms on which you were allowed to stay originally in Hong Kong and now in Russia?

- I have no relationship with either government.

Well that clears THAT up I guess. Next question.

Sorry, folks, this kid and his story - much like any story originating out of US intelligence agencies - gets stankier and stankier every day and with every new detail.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Mar 7 2014 22:20 utc | 73

@ 69

Thank you.

I get it.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 7 2014 22:22 utc | 74

It wasn't a soccer riot Norah

It was a housing rights/squatters right riot, there just happened to be a football ground nearby with a match on that day. Something I was aware of before the protest was organised

We won

Nearly 100 people were handed good housing as a result, and the right got put out of power for a while


What have YOU done, (given that you seem stuck in Alinsky-Dick-Waving-mode)

Posted by: brb | Mar 7 2014 22:24 utc | 75

bevin (71)

The mythological world in which Mr Pragma's armchair is set, in which Russian anti-ship missiles sink American fleets at the pressing of a few buttons, Russian Special Forces march, like supermen, through every obstacle. And Putin, besides whom Bismarck is a dwarf and Lenin a nonentity, this new Peter the Great on stilts, is always several moves ahead of his enemies. This fantasy land, fertilised by batshit, is not the world in which we live and in which the gravely threatened population of Ukraine, and Russia live.

You must be pretty desperate trying to smear me in an ad hominem.
But I understand you. Seeing Russia winning and being in a position of doing whatever they fucking please in and with ukraine, and, even worse, *not* simply overrunning but acting more responsibly than zusa who used criminals and terrorists, must be painful to certain people ...

Mr Pragma confides that it is his belief that this blog was founded for b's entertainment. My guess is that it was designed to spread information and to publish it, in the belief that in these times to tell the truth is indeed a revolutionary action.

And now you turn around and bend what I said and wrote, hoping to bring up b against me. Wow. Lovely.

Unfortunately - for you, that is - b is certainly not stupid nor the kind of men to be easily turned into a cheap tool.

Try better next time.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 7 2014 22:32 utc | 76

Grand Theft

Vladimir Suchan
1 hr ·
Apparently, the Kiev junta decided (or was asked) to move Ukraine's national gold over to the US. I would call it a theft ... a fascist coup in the name of sovereignty and independence ... right. 40 sealed boxes of Ukraine's gold reserves were reportedly loaded onto an unidentified/unmarked/unregsitered plane at Kiev's Borispol airport. Information came from sources working at the airport.
Is anyone surprised that a source in the Ukrainian "government" has confirmed that the gold was headed to the United States under the order of "Prime Minister" Yatsenyuk?
Original source in Russian provided below:

Posted by: brian | Mar 7 2014 22:39 utc | 77

<>This fantasy land, fertilised by batshit, is not the world in which we live and in which the gravely threatened population of Ukraine, and Russia live.

Interesting that he should attempt this line of argument given that it's pretty clear to me, from reading what he has written recently about Ukraine and the Bolsheviks, that he really hates Ukrainians for daring to resist Bolshevism.

Semms to hate the Poles too (the people not just the Gov't) from what I can see.

Why anyone would listen to anything said by to such a hate-filled bigot is beyond me

Posted by: brb | Mar 7 2014 22:41 utc | 78

@7 kalithea, I strongly agree.

"Obama pretending to de-escalate while he escalates"

And it seems so with almost everything that comes from this administration now. Up is down.

As far as the escalation goes, while we're watching the big things: bases and troops and ships and planes, I wonder what is going on with the mercenaries and special forces on the ground. We have a new way of waging war now. While everyone is saying Obama won't dare do a military intervention, has he already, but using mercenaries?

What I wonder about most in the short term is if they will try to derail the Crimean referendum vote so that it doesn't happen. Based on a presser, some comments bynow former Ambassador to Russia, DeFaul, it seems like they're conceding that the vote will happen and Crimea will decide to join Russia. DeFaul says that "occupying" Crimea will end up costing Putin a lot in the longer term, and that the sanction type actions the US is working on can hurt Russia in the longer term. He also mentioned that things could happen to take a bit out of their market share (energy in Europe). I do think that might be what's at the root of it all, or at least part of what's at the root of it. Note that various people in the US are calling for lifting the rules that don't allow crude and natural gas exports (with one narrow exception). Even the NYTimes editorial board wrote about it today.

Posted by: gemini333 | Mar 7 2014 22:44 utc | 79


I think you're absolutely right about the mercenaries and special forces. Not sure how well they're all trained, but their groups would be tighter, maybe, with fewer levels of brass and administration and at least semi-plausible deniability, plus they won't get any government medical care (or official burials if we actually still do them).

Posted by: Nora | Mar 7 2014 23:11 utc | 80

Just for the sake of clarity.

If a missile is so fast (> 500m/s) that its kinetic energy alone creates the same damaga a micro-nuke creates, if a missile is so fast that the time between noticing it and being hit by it is considerably smaller than the defense lead time (the "delay" introduced by defense systems by analysing the threat and it's path and by calculating a defensive reaction), if a missile on top of that makes path analysis and defense reaction so complex or simply infeasible by random moves in the final phase - then, yes, I think that pushing a button is pretty much equal to a sinking ship.
And in case you prefer to not believing me but rather a zus navy asessment then feel welcome. I just wrote what they concluded in analysing an older version of Jachont.

Similarly zusa air force people came to the conclusion that and area secured by S-300 (and not even the up-to-date-version) is de facto a no fly zone.

And for those zusa fans with some brain cells left intact I suggest they ponder the fact that *their* military cut the F-35 program and just very recently ordered (updated) versions of old fighter jets (old F-15, F-16, and F-18 being pretty much the only viable mil. jets zusa actually has available).

We can discuss whether Abrahams tanks are better or worse that Russian T-9x or, if you please to, whether AR-15 are better than AK rifles. But as soon as weapon systems of high strategic value are concerned zusa is not at all in any position to even consider to confront Russia or China.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 7 2014 23:15 utc | 81

Anyway Norah, back to YOU

Since we're playing " you show me your's and i'll show you mine", where's your's.?

Posted by: brb | Mar 7 2014 23:16 utc | 82

The Democratic Party, always a (very) mixed bag, lost both its Southern Conservative wing AND any true Leftish it might have had just faded away back in the 1960's over the fight over Open Housing in the (gasp!) North, and then those various assassinations. We watched it happen

Perhaps that's the difference between us Norah. I didn't sit there and ally myself with something like the Infested Democratic Party and then"watch it happen"

Posted by: brb | Mar 7 2014 23:25 utc | 83

@71 Bevin you have written a good piece that gives balance. I like what you say. It would be great if the world was polar/Manichean with the "good" guys eventually prevailing over the "baddies", but it isn't like that.
I thought that my dear Syria would be saved by the good guys, but it seems not to be. There are so many parts of the world in conflict. I do wonder if the MIT report of the early 1970's "Limits to Growth" is coming to pass and the fear of not having a share is driving conflict over reducing resources. Enough for need, but not enough for greed.

Posted by: Midan | Mar 7 2014 23:29 utc | 84

@bevin,I always enjoyed reading you but not lately since you departed from your very objective and fine analysis and embraced a path of rancor.Russia has learned from the tragedies bestowed on her in the last 100 years and this is plain to see for all who have eyes and want to use them hence the very reasonable and cautious legalist and principalist posture of Mr.Putin and the russian establishment.You can't possibly put Russia and Ukraine -who has become a basket case on equal foot.While Russia has enormously advanced after the terrible years of desolation that saw her a prey to the greed of the West that left her on the brink of disaster she is reborn of the ashes of the past .That has been Russia's fate in History.Suffice to say it will NOT go down because it has an extraordinary resilience and will.As for Ukraine it never came out of the dark tunnel of olygarchism post the collapse of the Soviet Union.Russia is a Nation and Ukraine has proven it isn't lacking the collective will so necessary to it.So when one is to analyze the present inherent situation and dangers related to it one cannot have the luxury to wait till the people of the West start their own revolution against the evil that govern them,It would be to late so yes we all have to be armchair generals as you see to try to understand what is the most possible next move in this horrid chess game that the planet has become.

Posted by: Nobody | Mar 7 2014 23:31 utc | 85

He doesn't normally put Ukraine and Russia on any sort of 'equal footing" -I'm pretty sure he's just doing that for rhetorical purposes, and doesn't actually believe anything of the sort.

Truth is, far I can see from reading his rants about Ukrainian vs Bolsheviks, he really really hates Ukrainians, Poles etc.

Posted by: brb | Mar 7 2014 23:48 utc | 86

AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL supports the illegal regime in Kiev

Amnesty International
6 hrs ·
“Attempting to monitor the human rights situation in Crimea has become a near impossible task. Self-styled Crimean self-defence groups are harassing pro-Ukrainian protesters, journalists and human rights monitors with complete impunity,” said John Dalhuisen, Europe and Central Asia Director at Amnesty International.

Posted by: brian | Mar 7 2014 23:48 utc | 87


Yup, HRW and Amnesty have been really quiet for a while. Usually it can be counted on that their front pages are emblazoned with the latest war-criminal causes du jour - e.g., Syria - but they've been noticeably silent concerning Ukraine as of late. What feeling some pangs of guilt? Nah, not them.

It's good to see that they're back in the game. Nothing quite helps with my reverse peristalsis exercises each morning than the incredibly asinine and concocted horseshit of the fake left's human rights-ers.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Mar 7 2014 23:55 utc | 88

Retweeted MFA Russia (@mfa_russia):

OSCE should condemn all violent actions committed by Maidan participants and declare the coup d'etat in Kiev illegal

Posted by: brian | Mar 8 2014 0:01 utc | 89

My thought is that Russia with its current appeal of law and decency, with respect, especially, to honoring the fucking agreements that a nation consents to sign. Nations that throw out the agreements they sign almost as soon as they sign them, are damned nations. Whether Russia is ready or not, whether any of us is ready or not, evil as starkly defined as this must be opposed, come what may. No off ramp?

Posted by: Copeland | Mar 8 2014 0:01 utc | 90

I realize my first sentence is a fragment. What I am saying is that at this moment, and in these circumstances, Russia's principled stance is on behalf of a civilized world, and is both an act of courage, and an act of necessity.

Posted by: Copeland | Mar 8 2014 0:09 utc | 91

I've said before on this board that fundamentally the jurisdiction of Ukraine is not a nation, and the only good solution for its tribulations is to partition it into two (or more) independent jurisdictions. Any alternative solution would be "a grand task of nation building" that would inevitably be a grueling failure. Furthermore I can think of absolutely no rational reason to want to keep Ukraine as one jurisdiction -- can you?

The following sentence is from a commentary at Xinhua about Ukraine: "Western leaders were delusional when they believed they could still take up such a grand task of nation-building."

Posted by: Parviziyi | Mar 8 2014 0:17 utc | 92

yes, copeland, it is, finally it is as simple & clear, as that

but u s imperialism os so mad; is in so much debt, it is certainly beyond decency, & i'd argue that it has gone beyond any normative sense of sanity

watched both medvedev & yeltsin in conference, cool as cucumbers & you have the feeling that lavrov is like einstein before the ape kerry

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 8 2014 0:19 utc | 93


it is cruel to say it, but i think americans must make the chinese piss themselves laughing, not only does u s imperialism not play chess, it can barely play checkers coherently

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 8 2014 0:22 utc | 94

The Ukraine was a nation not long ago, before Ms. Nuland, President Obama, and the US State Department used the $5 billion to fuck it from stem to stern.

Posted by: Copeland | Mar 8 2014 0:22 utc | 95

For anyone interested in the militia group with yellow armbands near Maidan Square:
How the Events of Sniper Fire In Instytutska Street Unfolded

Posted by: Oui | Mar 8 2014 0:26 utc | 96

I would like to add my own addition to what "Copeland" says:
Russia is one of the few countries outside of the core capitalist countries which actually has a 'national bourgeoisie'.

By the way b;
How can one make a contribution to your site? I know it is late, but better late than never.

Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Mar 8 2014 0:31 utc | 97

"In terms of this blog that means sensible, respectful consultation and discussion."

But what to do about the propaganda-mandated sensible, respectful consultation and discussion with war criminals and their multitudes of minions that we as citizens of the US and other Western nations are forced into by the sheer power TPTB exerts over the media/debate day in, day out.

For every discussion/debate in our society is mandated the need to consult - respectfully, of course - with - not kind of war criminals, not maybe war criminals - real freaking murderous war criminals who are offered up to us as the means by which we are supposedly going to change the system from within. Hold your laughter.

When we start talking about making sure that we are "sensible, respectful" etc in and amongst our own peon circles I fear that we are - surprise - taking our decrepit masters' lessons a little too closely too heart. Use your words, little people, sound it out.

It's exactly how TPTB masterfully quickly cut off ANY discussion that may benefit the commoners. Label the discussion "unrealistic" and its been tabled no matter how rational, fitting or sensible it may be.

In turn, then, the minions begin to galvanize the false perimeters of debate by in effect policing themselves through only "sensibly" talking about "realistic" things which - gee, whiz - end up being the exact same set of "realities" that TPTB have already determined for our meager existences.

I actually think we should say fuck all to civility especially those on the left. Let people say what they want and if you don't like it, well, too bad. I mean, we're only talking about mass-murder, theft, the destruction of millions of people's lives, y'know, the little things.

For far too long people have had to eat the shit coming out of the mouths of war criminals and there have been masses of media myrmidons to tell everyone that it tastes good, that we should have a debate about it, that we can only think of "realistic" possibilities, that to become irate is too lose credibility.

Oh, so I shouldn't be mad or angry that the people leading the debate about US foreign policy are all a bunch of murderers? Have violated how many international laws?

What is there to be reasonable about? Who gives a flying fuck what Pragma says or not, whether its realistic or not, whether its sensible or not. He's got his point of view and it sparks real debate that otherwise we here would NOT be having.

Additionally, he's ONE FUCKING poster on ONE board on ONE website, ffs. For every Pragma there are LITERALLY tens of thousands of fucking brainwashed idiot Americans posting stupid shit post after stupid shit post calling for the nuking of Russia and on down the line of absurdities. I don't really think we're in any danger of turning the tide.

Lastly, I find it odd that no one seemed to really give shit about it all until Ukraine started hitting the news. Then it seems that Pragma's Russo-centric POV became a bit too uncomfortable for some although I haven't detected a shred of difference between earlier Pragma posts concerning ZUSA etc and what he's saying now. Are we getting nervous? Why the need to be such bitchy little scolds all of a sudden, ffs?

Posted by: JSorrentine | Mar 8 2014 0:31 utc | 98

Crimea, a majority ethnic Russian region within Ukraine, decided on Friday to ignore a presidential order on a technicality and proceed with an upcoming vote to secede and join Russia.
The regional government said the order, issued earlier in the day by Ukraine’s interim president, was not submitted to the country’s Constitutional Court in the proscribed manner and is therefore invalid.
Crimea’s parliament, members of which have declared they do not recognize the interim government in Kiev, decided on Thursday to secede from Ukraine and request annexation by Russia.

Posted by: brian | Mar 8 2014 0:36 utc | 99

The Russian-speaking population in eastern Ukraine (excluding Crimea) have largely been silent, have largely stayed at home, and are largely NOT protesting. I recommend today's update on Ukraine from Vineyard Saker:

Posted by: Parviziyi | Mar 8 2014 0:52 utc | 100

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