Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 06, 2014

Ukraine: Yuck, I agree with Kissenger

As yesterday's thread keeps filling up here are some noteworthy items on the Ukraine to keep the discussion going.

McClatchy also covers my story about the fake Merkel "Putin is unhinged" quote which the White House distributed through the New York Times. McClatchy:

The problem with stories like the one unfolding in Ukraine is that it is so easy to become a megaphone for propaganda, from all sides.
...
The current example of this is the New York Times' report posted online Sunday and in its Page 1 lead story on Monday purporting to know what German Chancellor Angela Merkel told President Obama after her conversation with Russian President Vladimir Putin. In that story, the Times quotes an identified Obama aide supposedly briefed on the conversation that Merkel described Putin as "in another world."
...
The quote was too good to ignore and became the reporting line for every talking head and commentator for the next several news cycles.

As McClatchy, like me, found out, the quote was incorrect and Merkel simply said that Putin had "a different view" than the U.S. president.

The BBC finally finds out (video) that the Neo-Nazis are a threat to Ukraine. Even the New York Times admits that these are dangerous people though it still plays down their numbers:

Among them, at least on the margins, are factions that many fellow Ukrainians regard as anti-Semitic and reactionary, including Right Sector, which commands Sotnya No. 23.

Artem Skoropadsky, the Right Sector’s press secretary, took pains to distinguish its members from the rest of the opposition. But he said they shared certain goals, including serving as a check against abuses or halfhearted overhauls by any new authorities.

“Now it is clear that we can influence the government and the government structures,” he said.

Yes, indeed. And that is extremely dangerous.

The new government already tried to prohibit the official use of the Russian language, to disband the communist party which in the last election had 13% of the votes (more than the Nazi Svoboda party) and it kicked the Russian language TV which most people watch off the cable networks. That is a culture war against half of the population of the Ukraine.

Make no mistake. The neo-nazis, now holding all major security relevant government posts, will not voluntarily allow unbiased elections that would likely kick them out again. Not ever.

The parliament of the Crimea has voted to apply for membership in the Russian Federation. A public vote about the issue is now planned for March 16. That is quite early, too early indeed, but puts more pressure on the illegitimate new government in Kiev to find a way to some compromise.

Cringe-worthy as it is, I agree with Henry Kissinger on how such a compromise should look:

Putin should come to realize that, whatever his grievances, a policy of military impositions would produce another Cold War. For its part, the United States needs to avoid treating Russia as an aberrant to be patiently taught rules of conduct established by Washington. Putin is a serious strategist — on the premises of Russian history. Understanding U.S. values and psychology are not his strong suits. Nor has understanding Russian history and psychology been a strong point of U.S. policymakers.

Leaders of all sides should return to examining outcomes, not compete in posturing. Here is my notion of an outcome compatible with the values and security interests of all sides:

1. Ukraine should have the right to choose freely its economic and political associations, including with Europe.

2. Ukraine should not join NATO, a position I took seven years ago, when it last came up.

3. Ukraine should be free to create any government compatible with the expressed will of its people. Wise Ukrainian leaders would then opt for a policy of reconciliation between the various parts of their country. Internationally, they should pursue a posture comparable to that of Finland. That nation leaves no doubt about its fierce independence and cooperates with the West in most fields but carefully avoids institutional hostility toward Russia.

Kissinger calls for the Crimea to stay with the Ukraine but with some autonomy and secured basing rights for the Russian Black Sea fleet.

That fleet continued its isolation of the Ukrainian navy by sinking an old cruiser at the entrance to an Ukrainian navy harbor area on the Crimean coast.

U.S. president Obama just declared the crisis in Ukraine to be a an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the U.S. which gives him additional powers to wage financial wars via sanctions. This is another escalation after yesterdays news that the U.S. air-force would station additional fighter jets into the Baltic states. This climbing escalation is one reason why some commentators believe that there will be war in Ukraine.

Posted by b on March 6, 2014 at 12:46 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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Hilary Clinton and Victoria Nuland topless with Pussy Riot?

Posted by: dh | Mar 6 2014 22:38 utc | 101

Posted by: Oui | Mar 6, 2014 1:48:54 PM | 57

The 'Putin is Hitler' and this is ANSCHLUSS meme is in overdrive.. a crisis has a way of bringing out the essential character of people...in this case media pundits policy wonks all show their late imperial corruption, where lies are an essential tool of statecraft/journalism

Posted by: brian | Mar 6 2014 22:39 utc | 102

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 6, 2014 10:33:32 AM | 17


yes beware 'Moscow Times' it hails from that dark land USA

Posted by: brian | Mar 6 2014 22:40 utc | 103

dh (94)

I like reading your posts Mr. P but the war talk baffles me. Surely the next war will go nuclear pretty fast. Nobody (pun intended)can be happy with that.

I very strongly doubt that. First, because going is the one thing that is basically guaranteed to completely annihilate zusa.

And second, just think about it in cold blood and purely rationally. Going nuclear could only come from izrael or from zusa. *IF* they were ready to do that, zusa would do it anyway sooner or later.

Third and importantly, zusa, while making lots of noises and talking aggressively, actuallyv shied away from seriously risking a military confrontation of Russia, no matter whether conventional or nuclear.

Even right now, some braindead speaking puppet talked about "all options on the table" and within hours zusa politicians hurried to made aggressively sounding and self-reassuring statements that, however, lacked any mil. component.

For the moment, zusas tactics seems to be to employ their tool merkel for the dirty work and to have polish whores (with a long history of being cheap and willing) and some baltic states to say oh so dangerous things, bla bla.

Also kindly note the confrontative North Korean moves which are publicly explained away as NK being angered by SK and zusa maneuvers. japan is easily reachable for many NK weapons and could (nonsensically but credibly for the wezt) be explained as japan helping and supporting bot SK and zusa and therefore deserving a leasson.
In short, there are many bombs in far east Asia and many ways to trigger them, basically a) forcing zusa into an ugly conflict and/or b) inflict serious damage on zusa allies or even zusa bases.

I'm quite confident that zusa will not make any (factually) significant move in or even around ukraine. Of for no other reason to not find themselves dumbly caught in a Russian/Chinese trap full of lethal venom.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 6 2014 22:54 utc | 104

@103 Yes I agree it's all bluff and posturing at this point. They aren't even sure about imposing trade sanctions. But in #82 you seemed to be challenging the US to send ships into the Black Sea. That would be a very serious escalation requiring a serious response.

Posted by: dh | Mar 6 2014 23:06 utc | 105

zusa *was* already sending ships to (near) ukraine, albeit rather worthless crap.

And zusa *is* sending a missile destroyer right now toward Bulgaria for maneuver training.

As it might be interesting for some here I happen to have the most relevant technical data of that zusa destroyer. Here it is: sinking time < 1 hour.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 6 2014 23:17 utc | 106

Posted by: ThePaper | Mar 6, 2014 9:56:39 AM | 11

so the former 'peaceful protesters' now control the police...will we see any snipers now?

Posted by: brian | Mar 6 2014 23:20 utc | 107

@105 I guess you mean this....it will make the hawks feel better.

http://rt.com/news/us-navy-black-sea-230/


Do you see it as bait?

Posted by: dh | Mar 6 2014 23:24 utc | 108

#crimeaeffect: outraged western dictators suddenly discover INTERNATIONAL LAW

canadas dictatorship will refuse to recognise a referendum: will of the people, while happy to endorse a coup d'etat that puts in Kiev a neonazi regime...Can canadaian reel in their dictator?

a crisis reveala a persons character very quickly

Posted by: brian | Mar 6 2014 23:32 utc | 109

dh (107)

No, I see that as a desperate move of zusa hoping it will be interpreted as supporting the fairy tale "zusa is not to be frightened. They do whatever they please".

And I'm almost certain that, in fact, zusa has through discrete diplomatic channels reassured themselves that 1 ship is acceptable for Russia.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 6 2014 23:35 utc | 110

@109 Here are the armchair experts...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-03-05/us-warship-given-permission-cross-bosphorus-enter-black-sea

Posted by: dh | Mar 6 2014 23:44 utc | 111


"The Guardian" - The de facto authorities of Crimea have announced that they consider the territory to be part of Russia after a swift vote in the local parliament.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37865.htm

we live in an age of 'defacto authorities'...take neonazi Kiev!

Posted by: brian | Mar 6 2014 23:45 utc | 112

'In Kiev, Ukraine's economy minister, Pavlo Sheremeta, said the referendum would be illegitimate, but in Simferopol, politicians said the referendum was now only a formality. Crimea has a large pro-Russian population, though many want more autonomy rather than actual union with Russia'

someone tell chicken Kiev , their 'government' is illegal and illegitimate, as the Guardian wont!

Posted by: brian | Mar 6 2014 23:49 utc | 113

'The proceedings were interrupted by two topless demonstrators from the protest group Femen, who charged the stage with "Stop Putin's War" written on their torsos. They were beaten and screamed at by a crowd of elderly women before being dragged off by Cossack irregulars and taken away in a police van'

Femen expose themselves: Femen keen to have crimea join neonazis who want jihadis in chechnya to aid them...

Posted by: brian | Mar 6 2014 23:51 utc | 114

U.S. carriers are not going to enter the Black Sea. The Montreux Convention does not allow it.

Posted by: lysias | Mar 6 2014 23:52 utc | 115

@96 & @60 Let them tell that to the Scots.

Posted by: Precisely | Mar 7 2014 0:06 utc | 116

The US never attacks anyone who can fight back. The sardonic joke is that Saddam Hussein wasn't attacked because he had WMD. He was attacked because he did NOT have WMD.

The key to the situation, as far as the Americans are concerned, is the Europeans. The only reason the US can do what it does is because of its European enablers. If Germany and France (and maybe the UK) would stop fellating the Americans, there isn't anything the US could do but whinge about it.

The former Communist bloc countries are a lost cause. They'll never see that Russia != Soviet Union, so they'll piss and moan and stamp their feet, but they are bit players and can mostly be ignored. But the rest of Europe needs to grow a pair and act like sovereign states with their own interests. Unfortunately, that's not likely, as Europe has adopted the American model in which they are ruled by transnational elites who mainly care about their portfolio balance and where they are seated at Davos.

Posted by: shargash | Mar 7 2014 0:15 utc | 117

Well, the relevant technical parameters of all large zusa ship are roughly comparable: Sinking time < 1 hour.

I don't think zusa even wants to send an aircraft carrier into the black sea - nor would the turks.

zusa wouldn want it, because their supply of carriers is limited and the survival rate of any zusa aircraft crossing either Russias or ukraines border is around 0%.

Cost to Russia: ca. 50 - 100 mio.
Cost to zusa: ca 15 -20 bln.
plus, of course, the official outing of zusa as 2nd rate mil. and consequently 100s of billions of economic losses.

And the turks don't want it because Russia would interprete that definitely as an illegal move in the service of zato and consequently Russia would severly cripple turkeys infrastructure and economy (and possibly even eradicate zusas incirlik base as well as any turkish bases daring to put themselves in Russias way).

Again: Putin is a fair, peace-loving and by far more democratic man than any weztern politician.
At the same time, however, there is no doubt that Putin is neither to be frightened nor would he hesitate to conduct mil. operations against anyone, no matter whom, who harms Russias security interests.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 7 2014 0:25 utc | 118

@19. So right. Kissinger's fetid breath should be lighting the fires of hell. And if we don't stop the path the U.S. is on, pretty soon we'll all be there with him.

Posted by: Linda J | Mar 7 2014 0:44 utc | 119

Obama's latest; sounds to me like he's backing down/lowering our expectations. Anyone else?


THE WHITE HOUSE
Office of the Press Secretary
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
March 6, 2014

Readout of President Obama’s call with President Putin of Russia

President Obama spoke for an hour this afternoon with President Putin of Russia. President Obama emphasized that Russia’s actions are in violation of Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity, which has led us to take several steps in response, in coordination with our European partners. President Obama indicated that there is a way to resolve the situation diplomatically, which addresses the interests of Russia, the people of Ukraine, and the international community. As a part of that resolution, the governments of Ukraine and Russia would hold direct talks, facilitated by the international community; international monitors could ensure that the rights of all Ukrainians are protected, including ethnic Russians; Russian forces would return to their bases; and the international community would work together to support the Ukrainian people as they prepare for elections in May. President Obama indicated that Secretary Kerry would continue discussions with Foreign Minister Lavrov, the government of Ukraine, and other international partners in the days to come to advance those objectives.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 7 2014 0:46 utc | 120

obama? Isn't that the husband of the woman so well known for spending tens of millions of $$ for very frequent and lavish private family trips and holidays all over the world?

And the absurd blabbering of that guy is earning all those millions? Astonishing.

Whatever all those "dialogues" are targeting for, they will be overrun by reality and rather soon. But granted, that obama seems to be a capable comedian.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 7 2014 1:11 utc | 121

Posted by: dh | Mar 6, 2014 5:22:22 PM | 94 I like reading your posts Mr. P but the war talk baffles me. Surely the next war will go nuclear pretty fast. Nobody (pun intended)can be happy with that.

Yes he does have his bloodthirsty side, I think he believes war will be cleansing for the whole planet. Somehow he thinks that the only outcome will be the defeat of the US and the victory for whom? He also seems to be an advocate of mass murder of those people that support the capitalist system. Not to mention the utterly juvenile designations like ZEU, ZUSA, ZATO as if there is some Zionist cabal that rules the entire world. He is mostly harmless because few believe as he does, but if those views were to become more widespread there could be some terrible days ahead. Given all of that, what is that you like?

Posted by: ToivoS | Mar 7 2014 1:11 utc | 122

Hey, here's a great idea! Ha!

http://en.ria.ru/business/20140304/188081405/Putin-Adviser-Urges-Dumping-US-Bonds-In-Reaction-to-Sanctions.html

Maybe China and Brazil will get in on this to support their fellow BRICS member.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 7 2014 1:12 utc | 123

Black Agenda Report is always worth reading.
http://www.blackagendareport.com/content/hillary-and-other-assorted-barbarians-russia%E2%80%99s-gate

Posted by: bevin | Mar 7 2014 1:31 utc | 124

Dumping US bonds is something of a non-starter. It sounds scary because of the US right wing's "ZOMG! The Debt!" rhetoric, but I wouldn't expect it to have much of an effect. The US Federal Reserve could just buy up the bonds as they are dumped. The US dollar may devalue a bit, but I'm not sure that would be a bad thing for the US, as it makes US exports more competitive. And what do you get when you "dump" US bonds? More US dollars, of course. But what are you going to do with those dollars, if you don't recycle them into bonds?

As long as Russia sells its oil and gas in US dollars, it is going to wind up with a lot of US dollars that it has little use for except to recycle into US treasuries.

A much smarter and more damaging approach would be to sell oil and gas in a currency other than dollars. Russia has already started to do that, which is (arguably) one of the reasons the US is so hostile to Russia lately.

Russia should stop using US dollars as a reserve currency (to the extent it can), trade in other currencies, and unwind its US treasury holdings as its need to hold dollars is reduced. The BRIC's weapon is not dumping treasuries; it is attacking the US dollar as the world's reserve currency.

Posted by: shargash | Mar 7 2014 2:02 utc | 125

b;

How much do you agree or disagree with the last link that you have provided (the one from Sergei Markov)?

Especially regarding the three-point "political solution" he seems to propose?
Personally I think he makes a very good point. I don't know how realistic his numbers regarding the census are; but what he says regarding the very likelihood of the repetition the "Euromaidan" and color-coup tactics to subvert the government in Moscow (especially if they seem to have been successful in overthrowing an unwanted government and forcing Ukraine to join EU) makes sense to me.

Also considering what happened in Saakashvili's Gerogia what guarantee is there that under a "Ukrainian Saakashvili" -as Sergei Markov beautifully puts it- Ukrainian people would "have the right to choose freely its economic and political associations, including with Europe" as Kissinger proposes?

Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Mar 7 2014 2:06 utc | 126

ToivoS (121)

Not to mention the utterly juvenile designations like ZEU, ZUSA, ZATO as if there is some Zionist cabal that rules the entire world. He is mostly harmless because few believe as he does, but if those views were to become more widespread there could be some terrible days ahead. Given all of that, what is that you like?

Those views *did* become quite widespread and are getting ever more widespread.

And try to avoid lamp posts, friend of israel.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 7 2014 2:12 utc | 127

I think i said before that the only thing that matters now is power. And i still think that. But power comes in all forms. I suspect the new rulers of Ukraine are feeling extremely worried. They have only a gang of thugs to rely on, an indifferent and weary population, and the promises of the most unreliable people on the planet. And their opponent is a country that - though it has never wreaked havoc anywhere - never fails to at least make their point.

Putit's power is quite broad - a quick look at any internet comments-even the NYTimes- site will show you this. You can be sure that even in the heart of the empire, there are those who wish a man with the straightforwardNess of Putin was their president, while i am certain No One would want "you tell me what to do, and I'll sell it to them" Obama as their president.

This matters a great deal. The west is truly an elite society - they have few supporters at any level except for the one
percent who dominate the media, business, and the upper middle classes.

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 7 2014 2:29 utc | 128

yes, guest77 at an elemental level that is true

the cultural colonisation of that empire has debased us all

it has made beasts of us by trying to simplify what are complex problems & since moon began it is palpable how in the public sphere the elites express their hatred of us, we are nothing, absolutely nothing to them

& i will not debate with the anti semites here, zionism has fuck all to do with it, though i detest that politcal idea with all my heart because it debases jewish history & memory with each act it carries out

no, the elites of each country are home grown, or are compradors

i cannot listen to the 'information' in my country it is unbearably crude, as is the empire, i detest the empire as much for its crudity &
cruelty as its basic brutality

when the cradle of our civilisation in iraq was burned to the ground - we were all fucked

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 7 2014 2:39 utc | 129

we are living in a slaughterhouse, & stupidity is a part of that - utter stupidity

the details that b provides are precious, precious even if they are painful, perhaps because they are painful, at least that means we still have instincts

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 7 2014 2:43 utc | 130

Mr. Pragma | Mar 6, 2014 9:12:22 PM | 126 And try to avoid lamp posts, friend of israel.

dh, see what I mean?

Posted by: ToivoS | Mar 7 2014 2:49 utc | 131

@130 I assume Mr. Pragma is just another armchair warrior ToivoS. I find his views interesting. Hopefully Putin isn't taking too much notice of him.

Posted by: dh | Mar 7 2014 3:05 utc | 132

Thank you.

"Whenever they are out of arguments the matter quickly and not at all surprisingly changes to the person"

And btw. "armchair warriors" is 90% of what is needed to wake up the people and to help them understand the zionists lies.

And rest assured that I will not touch or physically harm a single jew.
The lamp post was a hint referring to those whose anger (or lack of differentiation) makes them outright *hate* jews, no matter the details.

But, of course that must not stop you to band together and to discuss the persons here rather than the matter. Not that further proof is needed but please feel free ...

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 7 2014 3:29 utc | 133

119) Yes, it is the start of a climb down. It is doubtful Russia needs Crimea as official territory. They want security for their military assets.
124) I think the idea the Russians floated was non payment of debts to Western banks in case of an asset freeze. It would lead to completely delinking the Russian economy from Western economies the way Iran had to.
As Europe is dependent on Russian gas, this is no option, it would hurt Russia, but sink Europe.
Neither military, nor economic war is feasible.
Plus, Europe simply does not have the capability to integrate Ukraine. the Association Agreement was a non offer. It is very clear, there is no way to full membership.
Russia and Europe share a problem in Ukraine at the minimum level an interest in secure, efficient gas pipelines.
The problem is huge.
This here is the pro protest Kyiv Post's "Distress Signal"

However, in other areas, Ukraine’s power structure hasn’t changed much. Turning to Ukraine’s oligarchs to save Ukraine from Russian dismemberment may be a brilliant short-term move, but it’s not much of an exaggeration to liken it to turning to thieves for protection from murderers. Putin even identified the problem when he called Igor Kolomoisky “a crook” and Ukraine’s corruption stratospheric.

The Soviet and post-Soviet systems of corruption and governance need to be dislodged completely.
Ukraine’s leaders need to request outside help to fix the nation’s police and courts system. They need the West’s help in tracking down the dozens of former top officials, led by Yanukovych, and bringing them to justice. They need the West’s help in investigating violent and financial crimes, since Ukraine’s authorities have proven since 1991 they have no institutions or political will to do so.

This here is Kyiv Post's owner Mohamed Zahoor

Zahoor certainly didn’t get where he is today – namely, wealthy – by owning the Kyiv Post. Zahoor punched his ticket the hard way: making steel in rough-and-tumble Donetsk. He came to Ukraine in 1974 as a student from Pakistan, the start of his pioneering expatriate career. ... Zahoor, a British citizen, renamed the company as the ISTIL Group in 1991 and made it a diversified holding company, with such interests as Aleana, a plastics manufacturer.

But his main line of business was metals. He helped steel mills in several nations improve their product and learn how to transport the finished material to its destination without damage.

“It was luck, of course, being at the right place at the right time, and my strong knowledge of the market,” he said.

He learned his first tough lesson about mixing business with politics during the 1994 presidential campaign. Incumbent President Leonid Kravchuk’s advisers had asked Zahoor to speak on Kravchuk’s behalf as a major investor. His speech was broadcast on TV and was a success.

But a few months later, Kravchuk’s rival, Leonid Kuchma, won the presidency.

“We had serious problems,” Zahoor recalled. The pressure from the government had not eased up even by 1996, when he decided to invest into a dying Donetsk Metallurgical Plant. Since then, Zahoor decided to never lend his public support to any Ukrainian politicians.

The world is made up of many people's stories and converging or diverging interests. To write it up as a fight between good and evil is part of lot's of people religious and psychological make up, but not based on outside reality.

As is, Ukrainian protesters seem to be screaming for help to save them from their elites.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 7 2014 3:41 utc | 134

I did not mean to disparage you or your valuable contributions Mr. P. And people definitely need to wake up. I do find some of your posts somewhat bloodthirsty however. That may actually discourage potential converts. But by all means carry on.

Posted by: dh | Mar 7 2014 3:43 utc | 135

133

no this is an operation
exactly as it is being conducted in venezuela

do not presume the presience of empire
they have made a strategically dumb position in allying themselves with fascist clowns who will in time do irreperable damage

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 7 2014 3:48 utc | 136

@124 shargash

I agree with everything you wrote and previously (a few days ago on another thread) I wrote something similar about the U.S. dollar; that replacing the U.S. dollar as the reserve currency was the way to go; the most effective way to reign in U.S. hubris.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 7 2014 3:58 utc | 137

*rein in*

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 7 2014 4:00 utc | 138

@ r'giap "we are nothing, absolutely nothing to them" You are absolutely correct. And they have to look at us in the face, so imagine how they take the "hunkies" and "russkies" on the other side of the world.

There is absolutely no interest in the people of the Ukraine and their lives by those who make lofty statements in Washington and London (forget Tel Aviv, they don't even bother trying). An honest testament of cold-blooded murder and visits in the night by Gestapo-like thugs elicits a "gosh".

There is only, in the "leaders" of the west, the overwhelming need of pathology to project onto their perceived enemies the faults and failures they themselves are guilty of - murderers, dictators, thieves.

...

@bevin. The Ford article was excellent. And spot on.

To any who appreciate him and missed it, I would say that his interview on The Real News Network is definitely work seeking out.

He is a Vietnam Vet of mixed black and white heritage who grew up in both the racist North and the segregated South - and his parents were active members of the Communist Party USA.

The man embodies all of the history that the US tries so desperately to pretend is "over". But he lived it and lives it, and he uses that experience to explain current events not like the US elite would like to imagine it - but how it truly is.

...

Pirouz, thank you, you've made some very thoughts posts recently. I always look forward to reading your thoughts.

A "Ukrainian Saakashvili" should be the nightmare of the Ukraine. Saakashvili did nothing except ruin his country, bring in the hated Israelis, and spoiled - had they honestly desired it - any chance for NATO membership (after all, the last the NATO would want is some pipsqueak revanchist nation to get them into a nuclear war).

And he was another who stormed his parliment and ejected an elected government - and to what result?! To send his countrymen to fight George Bush's war in Iraq, and to lose huge parts of his countries territory?

The man can be summed up in a few images:

1 2 3 4 and in Maidan pose

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 7 2014 4:18 utc | 139

dh

I may sometimes seem bloodthirsty to you, but I'm not stupid. So, don't try warm/cold "armchair warrior"/valuable contributions with me when you unite with someone like ToivoS.

I'm also intelligent enough to note the difference between talking about a person and talking about a matter.

Unlike certain persons here who quite quickly fall back to discussing persons, I at least elaborated on arguments for my p.o.v. that you perceive as bloodthirst. It was *your* decision to not discuss those arguments but to rather discuss me as a person - and not in a favourable way, I might add.

Don't get me wrong. Feel free to think to think - and to say if you feel that need - about myself whatever you please. But don't insult me by treating me as if I was stupid and some shoulder patting would make me forget your unpleasant personal remarks, anyway.


Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 7 2014 4:19 utc | 140

"Zahoor certainly didn’t get where he is today – namely, wealthy – by owning the Kyiv Post. Zahoor punched his ticket the hard way: making steel in rough-and-tumble Donetsk."

Yes. "Making Steel".

Amazing the way neoliberals can try and imbue themselves with the qualities of the very workers they destroy. But that's part of it of course. They see themselves, in their suits making millions with attendants to take care of all possible issues as they golf and yacht and "make deals" - as the hardest workers of all.

True scum.

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 7 2014 4:25 utc | 141

ToivoS @130

I'm a big believer in balance and hate what the U.S. and yes, Israel and it's overreaching influence, are doing to create instability in the world. Balance creates respect and deterrance. I don't like the fact that the U.S. has established itself as the world's "moral authority" with the wealth it wields when in fact it has proven it has no moral authority whatsoever and that wealth is questionable considering the debt it owes to China. The world is much worse off because of U.S. hegemony and meddling control. I can understand Mr. P.'s perspective.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 7 2014 4:26 utc | 142

@139 Unite with Toivo!! That's paranoia Mr. P. I don't unite with anybody. I agree with his description of SOME of your posts being overly warlike. That's how they seem to me.

But I don't think you're stupid. I agree with all the points you make...I just think the tone may be counterproductive. That's all. Feel free to criticize me and my posts anytime you like.

Posted by: dh | Mar 7 2014 4:38 utc | 143

P.S. I guess it's the 'armchair warrior' bit that you take personally. If it helps I think that fits just about everybody on the board including me. Of course if you are in Kiev confronting Pravyi Sektor or demonstrating outside the Whitehouse then I apologize.

Posted by: dh | Mar 7 2014 4:42 utc | 144

"crashing the zusa $ monopoly terrorism"

I think the key is Iran.

Unfortunately medvedev did a bad job by fucking the Iran big time by cancelling the S-300. The harm wasn't only the S-300 but also the signal that Iran was quickly dropped by medvedev.

One has to see the situation. Iran has a culture that reaches back millenia. And Iran - under the hashest circumstances - managed to build up major industries and rightout astonishing mil. capabilites and systems, easily on par with most subservient zato members. As I like to put it, iran didn't manage to develop their own S-300 systems, not yet, but something like say an S-270, something coming close enough to outperform practically all weztern systems.

In other words: Iran has every reason not to bow but to demand to be - very politely - asked to join the Russian sphere in one form or another. And quite probably Iran will demand satisfaction for the cowardly insult by medvedev.

Evidently Russia has learned from that and has played they Syrian situation more loyal and reliable, which also sent a signal to Iran, no doubt.
Looking at both the importance as in"oil and gas" as well as Irans geostrategic position, having Iran as a tightly linked ally and member of the group around Russia and China will quite probably be the pivot point in the zus$ question.


The other key question in my minds eye is that of the currency to replace the zus$ even if only within BRICS. Russia and China, no matter how tight their partnership, still are and stay individual superpowers, each with their own sensitivities. At the same time a "yubel" isn't a good solution, neither because that would send an unattractive message to the other members.

It is therefore my impression that BRICS is currently working on something like the "bricsaro", i.e. an artificial currency that will never be printed but that has value, is bound to tangible collateral, and can be exchanged, first only within inner-BRICS, later possibly globally.

One important property of the "bricsaro" must be extendability, i.e. the capability to integrate new members and local currencies without too much floating.

Basically the "bricsaro", or, or more precisely, its value would be defined by a reasonable set of factors, flexible enough to follow "natural oscillations" (or those created by integrating a new currency) but tight enough to be reliable and stable.
I'm expecting the "bricsaro" to work in a way that allowed all members to generally pay each other using the "bricsaro", to possibly (but not necessarily) hold amounts the "bricsaro", probably in some kind of commonly controlled BRICS central bank, and to generally sell in "bricsaro".

Such a system would also offer the flexibility to only demand payment in "bricsaro" at a later point in time by non-members (and such forcing them to buy it, which again was good for BRICS and made membership attractive) but to also accept payment today in ones proper currency.

Which leads us back to Iran. Not only would Iran, one of the major hydrocarbon powers, be an extremely valuable "bricsaro" member, but it would at the same time allow Iran quite comfortable ways to not care about zusa sanctions as well as healing its economical and financial situation.

Last but not least, the "bricsaro" could, if e.g. being pointed in a concerted action at zeu by demanding Russias and Iran oil and gas to be payed in "bricsaro" or ruble (which would anyway be convertible), break the $ monopoly terror and at the same time protect the bricsaro members from dirty weztern games.

Last but not least I don't have the slightest doubt that many non aligned countries would more than happily welcome the "bricsaro" as an alternative to the $ that always was a major tool used to oppress, rob and blackmail them.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 7 2014 4:51 utc | 145

This just in: members of Pussy Riot were attacked by neo-nazis at McDonald's in Moscow. Hipster volunteers from San Francisco and Brooklyn will be heading to Russia to help protect these freedom loving icons. Oh, the humanity.

Posted by: elmer fudd | Mar 7 2014 4:57 utc | 146

Mr. P.,

You talk about dumb moves by the US. Do you think it would be dumb for them to use Blackwater to take over most government buildings in the Russian areas? In other words, stop any referendums.

If the ZUSA goal is to create as many problems as possible, what do you think their strategy should be? If their goal is to break the US away from Russia, what would you recommend?

Posted by: Ozawa | Mar 7 2014 4:58 utc | 147

"Iran has every reason not to bow but to demand to be - very politely - asked to join the Russian sphere in one form or another."

It is interesting to watch the Israelis push Iran, by default, into the Russia camp with their (ridiculous) arms shipment capture - while the US would probably like to be luring them away at this very moment. Certainly the US would at least like to hold the Ukraine up as "stick" and the nuclear negotiations as "carrot" at this precise moment - without the interference of the Likudniks, et al.

But alas, that tail wags the dog like no other.

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 7 2014 5:05 utc | 148

dh (143)

No, it's your paternalizing way of considering me stupid.

As for the armchair: And if I were an FSB officer? Would I be an armchair warrior then, too? Probably yes, in your eyes.
(Don't bother to respond; this was a rhetorical question)

If *you* weren't an armchair warrior - in the sense you mean it - you would know that wars - of any kind - are won in the command centers as much as on the battlefield. Even more, a commander, a recon service officer or other specialists can multiply the power of their battlefield forces by instilling trust and confidence, by giving reason for loyalty, by providing good backend work and many other things.

It's not by coincidence that both maidan was lost and Crimea wasn't more due to armchair warriors than to physical fighters.
Any seasoned warrior knows "I need my men; without them my strategy is just a mindgame. And they need me; without me they will be parts of a system but not a system and without a spirited edge. How good that we trust, value, and respect each other!"

And kindly stop "understanding" me (as a person) or, worse, trying to console or to convince me. I'm interested in what I see people doing, performing, and writing - not in their explanations thereof, even less if driven by social reasons.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 7 2014 5:05 utc | 149

"Hipster volunteers from San Francisco and Brooklyn will be heading to Russia to help protect these freedom loving icons."

Haha, you are right. It is amazing to watch the art world lose their cool over Pussy Riot. Senseless, really. Style over substance? Style to the exclusion of substance?

These artists time would be better spent getting incensed about the fact that they spend too much time paying the rent to be able to make any art - especially in the two cities you mentioned.

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 7 2014 5:18 utc | 150

Ozawa (146)

You talk about dumb moves by the US. Do you think it would be dumb for them to use Blackwater to take over most government buildings in the Russian areas? In other words, stop any referendums.

If the ZUSA goal is to create as many problems as possible, what do you think their strategy should be? If their goal is to break the US away from Russia, what would you recommend?

The first part is basically pure theory. Those blackwater men would doubtlessly find considerable resistance and, shortly after special forces to kill most of them like rabbits nailed to a board and to "debrief" them and to then put them in a large shopwindow or zoo to be shown to the whole world.

Once more: One shouldn't mix up *very badly" motivated troups in Iraq or sheepherders with AK 47 with Russian special forces. You bet your ass that there are some e.g. Vympel units basically living next to their helicopters waiting for that of stupidity by zusa. I would btw. *any time* lead 10 Russian special forces against 25 rangers or other zamericans playing tough guy against defenseless village people.

As for your other question the answer is simple: I have no advice for zusa, none whatsoever. My interest in helping anyone fighting against Russia even theoretically is precisely 0, zero, non existent.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 7 2014 5:22 utc | 151

@guest77 (#138);

LOL...you really have a talent in picking up some images/cartoons which speak volumes!
And as I said before I always look forward to reading your comments too.

By the way, I don't know if you have seen this or not, but I post it here for all those who may have not seen it. It is an interview conducted by the real news network with Robert Parry (whose reporting I like very much) about Ukraine. It doesn't have any new ideas which our 'b' has not already talked about, but for me it is interesting because of the way he handles "The Real News". Those guys were very "green" in 2009 (regarding Iran) and are "pro-revolution" in Syria, and they weakly try similar arguments regarding Ukraine too. But R. Parry handles the situation really well. I don't think that TRN would take any lessons but I think what Parry says applies to today's Syria and Iran of 2009 as well.

Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Mar 7 2014 5:27 utc | 152

Ukraine is going through a lot of growing pains. They'll get it right eventually.

Posted by: Jeff | Mar 7 2014 5:38 utc | 153

dh | Mar 6, 2014 11:38:42 PM | 142. Of course, Mister P is not stupid but he does have dangerous ideas. And those are advocating war and violence and mass killing against those people who disagrees with. I also agree that he often sounds sensible in the midst of some of his indeterminable essays. It think he is just trying to appeal to many of us who have realized that US imperialism is really a threat to world peace and that it works to undermine countries around the world that have different ideas on how their societies should be organized. This is a problem that many of us accept.

But given that the solution is not world war which is what Mister P advocates. The enemy is not some Zionsit cabal that rules the finance capital and capitalist world (of course, the Zionists are major players and can cause a lot of trouble when they insert Israel into world problems).

dh, I don't really think that you agree with him on these questions.

Posted by: ToivoS | Mar 7 2014 5:56 utc | 154

Henry Kissinger is the merchant of realpolitik. Respect for historic sanctity is not in his playbook; it is a face-saving exit strategy for EU/US out of the face-off against Russia. `Bridge' between Russia & West is another bit of disingenuity.
Ukraine is/will be the `trojan horse' for Western interests against Russia, just like Japan. British finance supported the Western proxy in the 1905 war, with Germany and France - a tripartite with Russia that prevented Japan seizing Manchuria after its 1894 victory - sidelined by American warning.
Russia has the firepower - and looks willing to, and should, use it - to defend its security interests, and not just the sentimental cultural legacy of Mother Russia.
In other news, it looks like China has made a stand on support for Russia without stating a stand: strategic ambiguity.
In phone call, XJP invited Putin to visit Beijing to ``push forward China-Russia relations for continuous development''.
Putin ``looked forward to another meeting....to further discuss the major issues of common interest.''
Right at the time when EU/US are announcing sanctions, denying visas and cutting bilateral contacts.
Xi Jinping pointed out, the situation in Ukraine seems to be `accidental'( mob rule scuttled the Feb 21 agreement) but has the elements of the `inevitable' (foreign meddling??).

Posted by: nakedtothebone | Mar 7 2014 6:09 utc | 155

But given that the solution is not world war which is what Mister P advocates. The enemy is not some Zionsit cabal that rules the finance capital and capitalist world (of course, the Zionists are major players and can cause a lot of trouble when they insert Israel into world problems).

Nonsensical spattering.

Not only does "Mr. P" *not* advocate "world war" but actually "Mr. P" multiple times explained that a world war is not even in a position to perform such a thing.

Furthermore I did not say that "a zionist cabal" is "the enemy". You and other may continue to try putting that in my mouth but that doesn't make it true.

Interestingly you employ a classical relativation and shifting tactic by implying that israel is "inserted into world problems".

It is a FACT that hundreds of UNO resolutions were brought forward against the crime state israel (only to be reliably blocked by zusa).
It is a FACT that the crime state israel terrorizes the world with - and bases its very existence on - holocaust.
It is a FACT that israel remote controls zusa through aipac and other blackmailing organisations. It is, in fact, also proven that aipac and other pro israel organisations have acted criminally in many cases.

And it is a FACT that pro-israel "parliamentarians" of jewish descent have established non-constitutional special laws in many countries, some of which even go so far as to apply articles (e.g. 19) of the London statutes for those special laws, and such create the absurd situation that neither the holocaust nor any allegation against indicted persons must be proven.

It is not "israel being inserted into problems" ... it's "problems inserted everywhere BY israel".

Extract the israeli inserted parliamentary whores from the zusa and zeu parliaments and - suprise! - those countries can breathe and make laws for *themselves* rather than for israel.
Extract all those "anti defamation" and holocaust religion enforcement orgs and sciences and even whole countries have considerably less problems.
And finally extract israel itself from this planet and people might finally live together peacefully and not being mass murdered.

Don't they have intelligent trainers at israeli or pro-israel institutions to at least teach their personel, agents and sputter puppets the basics of logic and rhetoric?

I said it before. MoA is no toilet.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 7 2014 6:17 utc | 156

@144

Iran is an emerging market of vast unexploited potential and wealth, but unfortunately the U.S. with its "occupied" Congress is crushing this potential with severe sanctions. The U.S. is bent on hegemonic tyranny. BRICS could certainly help Iran achieve its potential. BRICS should really be BRIICS. No doubt Putin has some reservations when it comes to Iran on the Caspian Sea matter, but he should try to come to some reasonable arrangement and allow Iran into the fold, especially now that he's starting to understand how Iranians have been feeling for the past several years as targets of U.S. tyranny.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 7 2014 6:49 utc | 157

155) could it be, that you are just insane?

Posted by: somebody | Mar 7 2014 6:53 utc | 158

somebody

Thanks so much for again and, Pardon me, stupidly, evading to make me the matter - which I'm not.

Feel free to simply prove me wrong.

I at least have the politeness - and the intellectual capability - to offer arguments rather than to ask "could it be, that you are just insane?"

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 7 2014 7:04 utc | 159

The Chris Bollyn discoveries mentioned earlier are pretty stunning.

We now have neo-Nazis (or something like that?), possible Tatar jihadis (according to Turkish reports cited on this blog), and now an interim president who is closely associated with a staunchly Christian Zionist church.

Posted by: RudyM | Mar 7 2014 7:20 utc | 160

158) As you obviously see the world your way, no one can disprove you. Same as no one could disprove you if you claimed to be the new Messias.

What is insane or not is perception. All we can do is compare it. If your perception is an outlier most people would call it insane.

The problem with perception is that we make it true. For example if Russians feel everybody is out to get them, they will build up their military and strategic capabilities. If the US perceives Russia to be a geopolitical problem they will try to stop that which will get Russians to feel everybody is out to get them and so on in eternity.

So if you feel Jews are the only problem in the world, Jews will feel they need to unite to fight you, which will make you feel justified in what you thought in the first place.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 7 2014 7:20 utc | 161

@147

I have been wondering for some time, starting with the more or less open confrontation with china (about the small isles), but especially since the beginning of the ukrainian coup, why the us is so explicitely engaging the "eurasian block" (iran/china/russia) at the same time.
From a (my) rational point of view, I'd expect them to broker some deals, especially with russia, and try to evoke some dissent between these countries (add india to that) as to play them against each other.
But starting these quarrels and coups on all borders simultaneously... for all the imponderabilia that come with it, one thing that is almost certain is, that every single of the central-eurasian countries will have a growing interest in close cooperation with each neighbours as to avoid being the next target.

I'm more and more starting to think that the american/nato elite is aware that right now the discrepancy in power between itself and the rest of the world is at a temporary maximum, so if they want to expand / retain influence and control over ressources, they'd best get at it *now*.

The implications of that thesis are quite depressing, though. In fact, I'm starting to actually hope for some kind of cold war like balance of power with a more active global role for china and russia. Gosh indeed.

Posted by: peter radiator | Mar 7 2014 7:35 utc | 162

somebody

Nice try. But sorry, until now it's you and ToivoS who talk about imaginary things. Like your weird perception that I "feel Jews are the only problem in the world".

I did not say that. Simple as that.

I merely explained to T. who tried to serve us with "israel is inserted into problems" that it's actually quite the opposite, that it's israel that inserts problems into the world.
And, an important point, I offered arguments for that rather than simply putting it.

Let's cut it short, if somewhat straight, shall we. There have been numerous israel fans who tried any and all tactics (of what little they had available). I always - without exception - "killed them" (argument-wise, well noted, not physically). I played that game even on pro-israel forums run by israel fanatics, hoping that there would be better equipped opponents. It turned out a disappointment; they lousily failed with the same tricks I already knew well.

I say this so frankly not for the fun of it (honestly, disarming israel fans in an argument (which they anyway try to avoid if they are smart) is as boring as beating dog babies (I assume; of course I've never actually tried that) but rather for reasons of politeness.
You see, I know about the intense wish of israel fans to fight on those issues and particularly against "evil anti-israel" guys like myself. But I'm afraid to grossly bore the majority of the other participants here and I'm not interested in being part of that.

So let me suggest to just stop it. Just go ahead and perceive me anyway you like, maybe with blond short hair and a Nazi accent and, of course immensely evil, insane, bloodthirsty and what not. And I myself will have the small enjoyment of having stayed polite and of not having bored the others here with being a part of your personal perception problem and urge to - incompetently so far - fight me.

I'm not even sour or mad at you, honestly ;)


Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 7 2014 7:41 utc | 163

peter radiator (162)

I'm afraid it's worse, way worse.

Let me put it from another angle. Assume obama *did* understand. Now, what should he do?

Economically zusa basically committed suicide. And it could afford that because they don't care about their people and because they thought they could somehow forever blackmail the world with their zus$ and mil. mix.
Financially the situation is quite similar but worse.

Furthermore, zusa is HATED and despised pretty all over the world. Even in their colonies, e.g. in Europe, their puppets have an increasingly hard time to somehow keep the "zusa is great! zusa is liberty! zusa is democracy!" machine running.

It might sound brutal but zusa only has the mil. left. Conceeded, it's in lousy condition and must be afraid to lose a war even against Monaco if things continue they way they are now. But hey, they have some carriers, hundreds of planes for it, and enough meat in uniform (I wanted to be nice and avoid saying "bio waste") ...

Also note that their paradigm shift! Just ten years ago zusa still attacked "the zamerican way" with jets from carriers and then, once the opponent was all but dead, with hundreds of thousands of boots on the ground.

Since some years they have shifted to "special ops". Even more lawless, even more brutal, and less dangerous than a real war against a real army.
Don't you think, there's a reason for that (and possibly not the one they publish in nyt)?
Decreasing their mil. almost 20% might give a hint ...

Now in ukraine they've found an even dirtier and cheaper way by engaging nazi gangs. Hey, where do you get soldiers whose monthly salary is cheaper than the weapons you provide them?!

That's why.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 7 2014 7:54 utc | 164

163) Never mind, I was just trying to explain that Israel's raison d'etre is antisemitism, ie you.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 7 2014 7:58 utc | 165

I've concluded that the basic error/mistake a lot of world countries make is their firm belief in "international law" system..It doesn't exist!!!

Ukraine, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan etc etc are proof that some countries see themselves as above the law and therefore can do whatever they like.

I find it funny when Lavrov, standing next to Kerry, say "international law must be respected". Kerry doesn't recognize international law. They only recognize it if it fits their interest.

A new order is NEEDED ASAP. Nobody should be above/below the law.

Posted by: Zico | Mar 7 2014 8:04 utc | 166

OT , however a good reflection of the events unfolding in Ukraine , Ahmadinejad The Great :

http://www.alterinfo.net/Gilad-Atzmon-Ahmadinejad-Read-My-Lips-plus-Full-Text-of-Speech_a31796.html

...Distinguished delegates, ladies and gentlemen, what are the root causes of U.S. attacks against Iraq or invasion of Afghanistan? [Shouts from audience] What are the root causes of U.S. attacks against Iraq invasion of Afghanistan? Was the motive behind the invasion of Iraq anything other than the arrogance of the then U.S. administration and the mounting pressures on the part of the owner of wealth and power to expand their sphere of influence, seeking the interests of giant arms manufacturing companies, affecting a noble culture with thousands of years of historical background, eliminating potential and practical traits of Muslim countries against the useful Zionist regime, or to control and plunder energy resources of the Iraqi people? Why, indeed almost a million people were killed and injured and a few more millions were displaced and became homeless. Why, indeed the Iraqi people have suffered enormous losses amounting to hundreds of billions of dollars. And why was hundreds of billions of dollars imposed on the American people and its allies as a result of these military actions? Wasn’t the military action against Iraq planned by the Zionists and their allies in the then U.S. administration in complicity with the arms manufacturing companies and the owner of the wealth?

The invasion of Afghanistan; restore peace, security, and economic well being in this country. The United States and its allies not only have failed to contain [?] in Afghanistan, but also the illicit cultivation of narcotics multiplied in the course of their presence. The basic question is: What was the responsibility of the job of the then U.S. administration and its allies? Did it represent the world? Have they been mandated by them? Have they been authorized on behalf of the people of the world to interfere in all parts of the globe? And of course mostly in our region aren’t these measures a clear example of egocentrism, racism, discrimination, or infringement upon the dignity and independence of nations?
Ladies and gentlemen, who are responsible for the current global economic crisis? Where did the crisis start from? From Africa? From Asia? Or was it first from the United States, then spreading to Europe and to their allies? For a long time they imposed inequitable economic regulations.
By their political power on the international economy they imposed a financial and a monetary system without a proper international oversight mechanism on nations and governments that played no role in the repressive trends or policies. They have not even allowed their people to oversee of monitor their financial policies. They introduce all laws and regulations in defiance to all moral values only to protect the interests of the owners of wealth and power....

Posted by: Sufi | Mar 7 2014 8:07 utc | 167

somebody (165)

Bullshit!

For one I'm not anti-semitic. I actually *like* Palestinians! (And I differentiate between israelis and men who just happen to be of jewish faith).

Second to say "Israel's raison d'etre is antisemitism" is about as correct as bank robbers and child rapers saying "Our reason to kill policemen is that they try to put usin jail!"

One of the first things israelis did, once they finally had their stolen country, was to "gratefully" bomb their british benefactors because these actually dared to be serious about the *just* preconditions on israel.

Go and inform yourself! There were jews in the german army, there were *many* jews who openly stated "I'm a German first and then a jew" ... and then there were those jews who *wanted* other jews killed in Germany because they needed the jews to be afraid enough to give up their home and their country in order to go an fulfill the zionists dream of israel.
Pretty much like now when israel is more than happy with nazis in ukraine because, so their calcule, that drives jews to where,according to israel jew should be, in israel.

In fact my partner is a half jew. And I don't care batshit about that. For me, she is a lovely, intelligent woman.
Did it never occur to you that Nazis and israel (the other nazis) aren't the only source of information concerning jews?

And now piss off!

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 7 2014 8:10 utc | 168

162) I think they realized that they can't and have reverted to spoiler power to have some "bargaining chips" left.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 7 2014 8:11 utc | 169

Actually, most of Russia's trade is with the European Union, eg. one third of imports - very evenly spread imports
Europe will not go far with this new cold war. That means a third of exports to 140 million people from Europe. Never mind the dependency on gas.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 7 2014 8:28 utc | 170

the puppet in ukraine want nato to come to Ukraine.
http://en.ria.ru/world/20140307/188157592/Ukraine-Proposes-to-Host-NATO-Council-Meeting.html

Ukraine=Israel.
Talking sh*t while get protection by big parties.

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 7 2014 8:47 utc | 171

This "somebody" character is one hell of a Nazi. Just a few days ago he was insisting that Russia was responsible for the snipers in the square, trying his damndest to lie everyone into believing that Russia was responsible for those murders.

Posted by: brb | Mar 7 2014 9:36 utc | 172

I call him a Nazi becasue I know that he knows damn well that ZATO has used Snipers many times in the recent past to shoot on crowds murdering people for political gain

For example:

  • Unknown snipers reportedly killed both Venezuelan government and opposition protesters in the attempted 2002 coup
  • Unknown snipers fired during Thailand’s 2010 protests
  • Unknown snipers allegedly have created bedlam in Syria


I know that "somebody" the Nazi knows all this because one cannot spend any amount of time at this site and not end up reading evidence of ZATO snipers all over the place.

so when he tried to blame the Russians for murdering people in Maidan Sq by sniper fire he already knew that, judging on recent evidence in Syria, Venezuuala etc, it was very likely to be untrue

And THAT is what makes him a bit of a NAZI


Posted by: brb | Mar 7 2014 9:46 utc | 173

OT but relevant

China’s ballistic missile system for targeting aircraft carriers

Posted by: brb | Mar 7 2014 9:49 utc | 174

Finally someone spelled it out ( btw happy that it is Mr. Pragma )
Ahmadinejad was a great leader and the most courageous when it came to confront Zio-Fascism around the world , a man without fear whatsoever.
I was happy that Putin and AH finally met in Moscow in 2013 and they must have exchanged interesting views.

https://www.google.com/search?q=putin+and+ahmadinejad+in+moscow&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=zIcZU_yiPMbPrQf06IDABQ&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1067&bih=473#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=vOrOZPUQK1utxM%253A%3BgsrYVGuUUZhhkM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.aawsat.net%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2013%252F07%252Fruss.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.aawsat.net%252F2013%252F07%252Farticle55308202%3B620%3B350

Unfortunately the 'Feudalists' took over in Iran and are promoting a 'Neo-Liberal' agenda , thus it remains to be seen how the SL will confront/contain these forces.
However fortunately , as far as I can judge , the ideologically driven IRGC will not follow the current 'appeasement' policy of the westernized government officials and will align its policies closely with that of the SL.
I am sure that meanwhile the Russian military observers in Syria have recognized the vigor of the IRGC/Quds forces and Hizbullah and considering the current events in Ukraine it will certainly lead to close partnerships between the Russian military and their Iranian counterparts , noting that Putin must be prepared of Takfiri attacks on Russian interest of the worst kind in the near future , thus he needs allies.
Certainly in energy politics Russia and Iran could create the most formidable power block in the world with incredible amounts of gas and oil at their disposal , breaking the neck of all possible adversaries.
What China is concerned I am not so sure how one can count on their 'loyalty ' towards Russia.
The Chinese financial elites are very much intertwined with Zionist-weSStern interest , whereas we can calmly assess that the Chinese military is also ideologically driven and may be a true force against weSStern hegemonic power.
In sharp contrast we have the MIC/ZEU/ZATO which is closely and firmly aligned with the zio-capitaliSStic cancer spread around the world.
The unfortunate German president before Gauck and Wulff ( forgot his name ) was fired because he stated this obvious fact.
There is much more into this and I hope to have initiated further thoughts in this regard.......


Posted by: Sufi | Mar 7 2014 9:54 utc | 175

Resend and sorry for double-post :

"crashing the zusa $ monopoly terrorism"
I think the key is Iran.""

Correct , correct , correct !
Finally someone spelled it out ( btw happy that it is Mr. Pragma )
Ahmadinejad was a great leader and the most courageous when it came to confront Zio-Fascism around the world , a man without fear whatsoever.
I was happy that Putin and AH finally met in Moscow in 2013 and they must have exchanged interesting views.

https://www.google.com/search?q=putin+and+ahmadinejad+in+moscow&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=zIcZU_yiPMbPrQf06IDABQ&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1067&bih=473#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=vOrOZPUQK1utxM%253A%3BgsrYVGuUUZhhkM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.aawsat.net%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2013%252F07%252Fruss.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.aawsat.net%252F2013%252F07%252Farticle55308202%3B620%3B350

Unfortunately the 'Feudalists' took over in Iran and are promoting a 'Neo-Liberal' agenda , thus it remains to be seen how the SL will confront/contain these forces.
However fortunately , as far as I can judge , the ideologically driven IRGC will not follow the current 'appeasement' policy of the westernized government officials and will align its policies closely with that of the SL.
I am sure that meanwhile the Russian military observers in Syria have recognized the vigor of the IRGC/Quds forces and Hizbullah and considering the current events in Ukraine it will certainly lead to close partnerships between the Russian military and their Iranian counterparts , noting that Putin must be prepared of Takfiri attacks on Russian interest of the worst kind in the near future , thus he needs allies.
Certainly in energy politics Russia and Iran could create the most formidable power block in the world with incredible amounts of gas and oil at their disposal , breaking the neck of all possible adversaries.
What China is concerned I am not so sure how one can count on their 'loyalty ' towards Russia.
The Chinese financial elites are very much intertwined with Zionist-weSStern interest , whereas we can calmly assess that the Chinese military is also ideologically driven and may be a true force against weSStern hegemonic power.
In sharp contrast we have the MIC/ZEU/ZATO which is closely and firmly aligned with the zio-capitaliSStic cancer spread around the world.
The unfortunate German president before Gauck and Wulff ( forgot his name ) was fired because he stated this obvious fact.
There is much more into this and I hope to have initiated further thoughts in this regard.......


Posted by: Sufi | Mar 7 2014 9:56 utc | 176

peter radiator | Mar 7, 2014 2:35:44 AM | 162,

Dear Peter you raise a good question. It does seem strange that the US would try to pivot to Asia, while bogged down in the mid east and then provoke a confrontation with Russia at the same time. I happen to believe that there is no coherent strategy that is run by some central control in the US government. I believe that what we are witnessing is that there is no central control over US foreign policy. Rather there are multiple competing centers of control inside the US government, in finance capital, in Tel Aviv and within pockets of influence within various US communities.

For some time it seems that Obama's foreign policy is to lurch from one crisis to the next without having any control over the bigger scene. This Ukraine crisis is an example. I cannot believe that Obama wanted this to happen. It simply detracted from his other FP interests. However, it did happen. Part of the problem was that he promoted Victoria Nuland to Assistant Secretary of State over European and Eurasian Affairs. She was a clear neocon leftover from the Bush admin. I think Obama wanted her out of ME affairs and gave her a job where she couldn't cause harm. Oops! She discovered a fascist movement inside Ukraine that she helped stir up using her high level position inside State. Now Kerry is trying desperately to put out that fire. There goes his and hillary's pivot to Asia. There goes any influence he might have over the Israel-Palestine negotiations (this has to be good for the Palestinians BTW). This might also upend his biggest effort to win the Noble Peace Prize and that is a peace treaty with Iran.

In any case, what we are witnessing is the US lurching from one crisis to the next without any grand plan. I think that is a positive development, unless, of course, the US stumbles into WWIII and a nuclear confrontation along the way.

Posted by: ToivoS | Mar 7 2014 9:59 utc | 177

Part of the problem was that he promoted Victoria Nuland to Assistant Secretary of State over European and Eurasian Affairs. She was a clear neocon leftover from the Bush admin

And not just a neocon but also a Jewish Neocon

Of course that surely makes no difference whatsoever.silly of anyone to even think of mentioning it

Posted by: brb | Mar 7 2014 10:05 utc | 178

ToivoS

From how I read it, the major two parties driving zusan - not only - foreign policy is obama (and quite possibly a seriously pissed off strong background force) on one side and the zionist force, embodied by nuland, clinton, and lots of congressmen and senators like mc cain't.
The former has understood that sticking with israel zusa is doomed; israel doesn't care batshit about zusa, the golem has just one last major job to do, to destroy Iran (a pipe dream) and then the slave zusa can die and rot.
The other side has understood thatand tries everything it can to rid itself of the israeli parasite which, of course, fights claws and teeth against it.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 7 2014 10:19 utc | 179

Useful Chronology of the Ukrainian Coup

This is a guest post by Renée Parsons, who did a very good job of pulling together the facts. Facts are important, you know, especially in light of the rabidly anti-Russian press coverage in the US. . . . .

April 11, 2011: A Kiev Post article entitled "Ukraine Hopes to Get $1.5 Billion from IMF in June" states that the loan is dependent on pension cuts while "maintaining cooperation with the IMF, since it influences the country's interaction with other international financial institutions and private investors" and further that the "attraction of $850 million from the World Bank in 2011, depended on cooperation with the IMF." Well, that about says it all: if Ukraine played ball, then the loan money would pour in.

November 21, 2013: fast forward to the EU summit in Lithuania when President Yanuyovch embarrassed the European Union by rejecting its Agreement in favor of joining Russia’s Common Union with other Commonwealth Independent States.

November 27, 2013: it was not until February 23, 2014 when Anonymous Ukraine hackers released a series of emails from a Lithuanian government advisor to opposition leader and former boxer Vitaly Klitschko regarding plans to destabilize Ukraine; for example:

  • "Our American friends promise to pay a visit in the coming days, we may even see Nuland or someone from the Congress." 12/7/2013

  • "Your colleague has arrived ... his services may be required even after the country is destabilized." 12/14/2013

  • "I think we’ve paved the way for more radical escalation of the situation. Isn’t it time to proceed with more decisive action?" 1/9/2014

Posted by: brb | Mar 7 2014 10:58 utc | 180


#155:
Did I hear the sound of a douche bag breaking & showing his own shit?? Splattt!!!
Normally I wouldn’t bother; it is just my comment and it won’t change Putin’s mind or the course of history, but it’s 36 degree hell & I am home early.
Insane? Insane are those neo-Nazis who threatened, bombed and evicted children, women and men out of the homes and olive groves they have lived for centuries, and still violently create more lebensraum (very Nazi , that, mein herr) under the pretext of national security. No, I am not anti-Jewish; I couldn’t tell a Jew from a screw, but I do know a screwball when I run into one. Not you, of course.
Insane are people who shock, awe and bomb with depleted uranium – again – women, children and men falsely accused of possessing WMD; 500,000 children killed are worth it!!
Insane are officials who claim, without shame, that girls 15 and 16 kidnapped, tricked and coerced into wartime prostitution are ``willing whores’’. No, I am not SKorean or Chinese by nationality.
Insane are…oh, wait. All the above aren’t insane; they are Leaders who strategize and execute policies in the interests of the nation. Insane – or just brainwashed – are all those in the cities, towns and villages of the West who believe their media shit & support these policies. Not you, of course.
So, no, I am not insane; self-righteous,perhaps, high-minded, too loyal to my own sense of truth, justice, yes. Insane, not.
And before I go: I was in London before the Libya invasion, for a summer course.
After a few days, a nice Italian girl and I started chatting. She had an Israeli ex-boyfriend. An a**hole.
It seems that he would sometimes tell Libyans/Arabs who came the shop he worked, to go home. ``He’s not even Italian. He should go home!!’’
Nobody in the West would usually dare talk about the delicate issue; see what happened to John Galliano. But it’s there – though not due to nice, reasonable people like you, of course. Goodbye.

Posted by: nakedtothebone | Mar 7 2014 11:27 utc | 181

Not #155, it's for #158

Posted by: nakedtothebone | Mar 7 2014 11:55 utc | 182

Part 1 of Checkmate: Strategy of as Revolution #romania1989 #snipers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yF-LSrsd0fw
Romania 1989.
In Susanne Brandstätter’s documentary ‘Checkmate: Strategy of a Revolution’ aired on Arte television station some years ago, Western intelligence officials revealed how death squads were used to destabilize Romania and turn its people against the head of state Nicolai Ceaucescu.

Brandstätter’s film is a must see for anyone interested in how Western intelligence agencies, human rights groups and the corporate press collude in the systematic destruction of countries whose leadership conflicts with the interests of big capital and empire.

Former secret agent with the French secret service, the DGSE(La Direction générale de la sécurité extérieure) Dominique Fonvielle, spoke candidly about the role of Western intelligence operatives in destabilizing the Romanian population.

“how do you organize a revolution? I believe the first step is to locate oppositional forces in a given country. It is sufficient to have a highly developed intelligence service in order to determine which people are credible enough to have influence at their hands to destabilize the people to the disadvantage of the ruling regime”[2]

This open and rare admission of Western sponsorship of terrorism was justified on the grounds of the “greater good” brought to Romania by free-market capitalism. It was necessary, according to the strategists of Romania’s “revolution”, for some people to die.

Today, Romania remains one of the poorest countries in Europe. A report on Euractiv reads:

“Most Romanians associate the last two decades with a continuous process of impoverishment and deteriorating living standards, according to Romania’s Life Quality Research Institute, quoted by the Financiarul daily.” [3]

The western intelligence officials interviewed in the documentary also revealed how the Western press played a central role in disinformation. For example, the victims of Western-backed snipers were photographed by presented to the world as evidence of a crazed dictator who was “killing his own people”.

To this day, there is a Museum in the back streets of Timisoara Romania which promotes the myth of the “Romanian Revolution”. The Arte documentary was one of the rare occasions when the mainstream press revealed some of the dark secrets of Western liberal democracy. The documentary caused a scandal when it was aired in France, with the prestigious Le Monde Diplomatique discussing the moral dilemma of the West’s support of terror in its desire to spread ‘democracy’.

Posted by: brian | Mar 7 2014 12:51 utc | 183

Lol sorry if I repeat this but the "yats" is a scientologist!

Acting Ukrainian president is a pastor and its prime is a scientologist
http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=11127

What a friggin circus this is!

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 7 2014 13:18 utc | 184

I thought 'yatSS' is a jewish bankster, I read it somewhere...

Posted by: Sufi | Mar 7 2014 13:27 utc | 185

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 7, 2014 8:18:47 AM | 184

so? is this in any way relevant mr 'anonymous? please leave your dodgy prejudices at the door

Posted by: brian | Mar 7 2014 13:28 utc | 186

Now I remember, I read it today's Escobar article in atimes...

Posted by: Sufi | Mar 7 2014 13:30 utc | 187

brian

Oh do we have a Ron Hubbard fan on this board too? Haha

So?

Scientology is a sect, since you seems to be a member I assumed you didnt know that.

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 7 2014 13:30 utc | 188

revealing tweets: how the fascists of kiev also hatre President Assad:
Euromaidan PR ‏@EuromaidanPR 11h
The President of #Syria is the only leader of an independent country that supports military intervention -@KRYMSOS IPR Post @Crimea
Reply Retweet Favorite More Expand
Thomas C. Theiner ‏@noclador 6h
@EuromaidanPR @KRYMSOS @crimea Perfect, that's an invite for the West to finally bomb him out of Syria.
======================
another reason to oppose the neonazis of Euromaidan

Posted by: brian | Mar 7 2014 14:07 utc | 189

@188

not a fan of puerile unthinking hate esp given the attacks minor religions suffer

Posted by: brian | Mar 7 2014 14:08 utc | 190

http://nahnews.com.ua/yarosh-demands-to-open-military-warehouses-for-the-right-sector/


Yarosh demands to open military warehouses for the Right Sector
07.03.2014 11:23 In Ukraine, Politic, regions, Top news No comments
yarosh

According to ITAR-TASS with the reference to the source in the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine, the leader of a radical nationalist union the Right Sector Dmitriy Yarosh requires access for his alignment to military warehouses as an ultimatum.

According to the source of the agency, Yarosh believes that security, defense and law enforcement agencies of Ukraine “are not able to bring order in the country and to eliminate anti-Maidan protests in eastern and southern regions of Ukraine.”

Therefore, the leader of the Right Sector requires leadership of Ukraine to provide the alignment with weapons, military equipment, and a several military training centers in order to train fighters, who “will have to participate in security of the territorial integrity of Ukraine”.

In the case leadership of Ukraine does not fulfill requirements of fighters the Right Sector is ready for radical actions on the territory of the country.

According to Ukrainian mass media the Prime Minister of Ukraine Arseniy Yatsenyk dismissed heads of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine because they did not support the idea of giving the fighters of the Right Sector the status of regular militarized sub-units.

Specifically, the first deputy minister of defense of Ukraine Alexandr Oleynik, as well as Deputies Vladimir Mozharovskiy and Arturo Francisco Babenko were dismissed.

According to the military personnel, the legislative adoption of this initiative will lead to the final split of the society and the country, as well as to anarchy and chaos.
==========================================


=======================================

Posted by: vbo | Mar 7 2014 14:23 utc | 191

Ukraine, Donetzk, today/ Anti "new Neo-Nazi government" demonstration.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VktqzB01hh8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Posted by: brian | Mar 7 2014 14:23 utc | 192

brian

its not a religion its a sect.
suffer lol?
yeah the only who suffer is the people at the top making billions from naive people that are members of this sect. Dont support that please.

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 7 2014 14:26 utc | 193

http://nahnews.com.ua/it-has-been-reported-that-yanukovych-had-a-heart-attack-and-is-in-critical-condition/

It has been reported that Yanukovych had a heart attack and is in critical condition
Several mass media have reported that Viktor Yanukovych was hospitalized in critical condition in one of the hospitals of Moscow.

He is suspected to have had a heart attack.
There has been no official confirmation of the news.

Posted by: vbo | Mar 7 2014 14:41 utc | 194

@162

I'm more and more thinking the US really doesn't have a "government", and Obama just sees his job as placating We The People (and throwing us a crumb or two when absolutely necessary) while making sure our oligarchs and alphabet agencies have free rein to do whatever they wish. Not only doesn't he know what's going on, he doesn't care -- and at this point we have so many monsters running around everywhere caring not a whit about any, omigosh, people involved, well, really, how DO you stop us? There's no head to this monster, no one making any concerted policy: it's TOTALLY DECENTRALIZED.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 7 2014 14:48 utc | 195

@177

I cannot believe that Obama wanted this to happen. It simply detracted from his other FP interests. However, it did happen. Part of the problem was that he promoted Victoria Nuland to Assistant Secretary of State over European and Eurasian Affairs. She was a clear neocon leftover from the Bush admin. I think Obama wanted her out of ME affairs and gave her a job where she couldn't cause harm. Oops! She discovered a fascist movement inside Ukraine that she helped stir up using her high level position inside State. Now Kerry is trying desperately to put out that fire. There goes his and hillary's pivot to Asia. There goes any influence he might have over the Israel-Palestine negotiations (this has to be good for the Palestinians BTW). This might also upend his biggest effort to win the Noble Peace Prize and that is a peace treaty with Iran.

Holy crap.

Wait wait wait wait......I thought you were a freaking scientist, man? Then why don't you use your freaking scientific method instead of pushing personal motives on Obama, Kerry, Clinton and every other player in this mess like a paid propagandist?

Where is the EVIDENCE - remember THAT word - that Obama, Kerry, Clinton AND the neocons - who are ALL ardent Zionists, btw, ALL OF THEM - are NOT on the same page?

Obama FORGAVE/PARDONED the necons for all of the war crimes from the GWOT. He has APPOINTED neocons. He, Kerry and Clinton have COVERED for neocons and have continued with necon policy for his ENTIRE PRESIDENCY.

Syria, Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Pakistan, Ukraine, Israel, etc etc etc besides the Beltway chitter chatter and horseshit gossip to make it APPEAR that there's a difference - did you get that, APPEAR? - where has any real difference shown itself?

Why, it sure looks to me like the MOST RATIONAL and SCIENTIFIC conclusion would be to conclude that THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE between Obama et al and the neocons, huh?

So, while your fairy tale/soap opera version of events could be taking place in "House of Cards" or some other fictional venue like the Huffington Post, where the rubber meets the road - i.e., reality - rational observers must conclude THROUGH EVIDENCE that there is not a dime's worth of difference between ANYONE in US foreign policy as they all close ranks and support each others' war crimes.

Lastly, I know Pragma can fight his own battles but, again, personally I'd rather listen to someone who lives in one of the last remaining countries that actually defies the US - i.e., Russia, who understands that stopping the US in its war of aggression IS INDEED the key to stopping this worldwide murder and mayhem spree and who has a more reality-based and accurate take on how the truly Zionist-dominated US government conducts it foreign policy than the polluted fantastical musings of someone who admits that they are a retired...basic research scientist in bacteriology, virology, toxicology and molecular genetics and 90% of my research funds came from US government sources even including the US Army yet who can't seemingly bring himself to use that scientific training to bear upon the criminal actions of the country which basically employed him for his entire life and in which he resides.

Obama didn't want this, Kerry's upset, Clinton's miffed, where have YOU BEEN? Oh that's right, right here with every other brainwashed American.

Yikes.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Mar 7 2014 14:50 utc | 196

Collusion between Nazis and Zionists is nothing new, it's part of a more than 100 years old strategy of driving the Jews out of their host countries into Palestine in order to create "Eretz Israel" from Nile to Euphrates with the capitol of One World Government in Jerusalem. Pogroms, the Holocaust and the terrorist attacks on Jews in recent years are also part of this plan of "the Elders". I mentioned before The Gay Father Of Nazism And Zionism, but everybody should also become familiar with the "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" and other books like "The Scared and The Doomed" by Jacob Nurenberger, "The Transfer Agreement" by Edwin Black and "Perfidy" by Ben Hecht:

Nevertheless, we republish his 1961 book. This book has an anormous interest. It is a report of the Kasztner (1906-1957) Trial, which took place in Israel in 1954. The Trial record has been publisehd in Israel in several volumes, in Hebrew. As long as these records are not translated in a Western language, the gist of this incredible trial will be lost. But fortunately Ben Hecht was there. A fanatical but brilliant mind, a gifted writer with a great career as a story writer for Hollywood, he shows clearly what the trial was about : the Treason of the European Jews by the Zionist leadership, who had in mind the selection of a youngish elite to be sent to Palestine by the Germans in counterpart of the complicity to destroy the rest of the Eirropean Jews, too old, or too unfit, or too unable to colonize Palestine and rob the land from the stubborn Arabs who did not want to part with it, for some reasons.
This trial, and other documents, of course, establish this fact : the Zionist viewed their fellow Jews as an embarassing cattle, that they wish the nazis would dispose of. This, the other Jews should know.
AAARGH (september 2006)

Posted by: ProPeace | Mar 7 2014 15:02 utc | 197

A great article talking about the pathological insanity of American elite.

Sorry, if already posted.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Mar 7 2014 15:13 utc | 198

take dave...hes a journalist from brussels, but a change of suits and he could be from anywhere!...............Dave Keating ‏@DaveKeating Mar 6
Prime Minister of #Ukraine speaking now at emergency summit in Brussels, says Crimea referendum vote is illegal act pic.twitter.com/CFcBvaUJ79 ......Dave is not at all worrie about Yats being ILLEGAL,. which as a coup beneficary he is,...no Dave problem is with the people of crimea exercising their right to choose

Posted by: brian | Mar 7 2014 15:18 utc | 199

@193
its not relgions alone that can generate irrationality..its alsoin those who hate them

Posted by: brian | Mar 7 2014 15:20 utc | 200

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