Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 17, 2014
Ukraine: Wet Noodle Sanctions And Pressure For Constitutional Reform

As documented yesterday the "leaked" Russian non-paper which demanded constitutional reform in the Ukraine and more autonomy for its regions was at least partially accepted by Secretary of State Kerry:

In a phone call with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, their second since unsuccessful face-to-face talks on Friday in London, Kerry urged Russia "to support efforts by Ukrainians across the spectrum to address power sharing and decentralization through a constitutional reform process that is broadly inclusive and protects the rights of minorities," the State Department said.

That Kerry "urged Russia" is just a silly diversion. The idea of such changes in the Ukrainian constitution clearly came from the Russian side and were already part of the February 21 agreement which the U.S. supported coup government broke.

The Kerry call with Lavrov was followed by one between Putin and Obama. The White House readout of that call also mentions the constitution issue.

[President Obama] noted that the Ukrainian government continues to take concrete steps that would allow for the de-escalation of the crisis, particularly as it prepares for elections this Spring and undertakes constitutional reform, …

Using that acknowledgement of the Russian plan the Kremlin increased the pressure and went public with its demands:

Moscow, meanwhile, called on Ukraine to become a federal state as a way of resolving the polarization between Ukraine's western regions — which favor closer ties with the 28-nation EU — and its eastern areas, which have long ties to Russia.

In a statement Monday, Russia's Foreign Ministry urged Ukraine's parliament to call a constitutional assembly that could draft a new constitution to make the country federal, handing more power to its regions. It also said country should adopt a "neutral political and military status," a demand reflecting Moscow's concern about the prospect of Ukraine joining NATO.

Russia is also pushing for Russian to become Ukraine's state language.

In Kiev, Ukraine's new government dismissed Russia's proposal Monday as unacceptable, saying it "looks like an ultimatum."

The Ukrainian puppet government still has to learn the business. As Kerry and Obama already conceded "constitutional reform" in the Ukraine there will be no way for the puppet government to get around this. It urgently needs money and those who could possibly pay, the IMF, the U.S. and EU, will make their demands heard.

Russia could also easily escalate and help the eastern and southern regions of the Ukraine to create their own state independent of Kiev or the seek, like the Crimea, incorporation into the Russian Federation. The Ukrainian government is right to call the Russian demand an ultimatum. It is exactly that and it will have to submit to it.

But that is not yet understood. The Ukrainian parliament, those now 300+ left from 450 original lawmakers after the others fled under threats of violence, decided to mobilize the Ukrainian military and moved a whooping 12% of its total budget into reestablishing some military force. But the Ukrainian military has been neglected for over 20 years:

“It is absolutely not a combat ready force. It’s sharply underfunded, and they don’t have any real air or surface to air or capacity compared to what Russia can deploy — even though Russia is no paragon of military readiness either,” Anthony Cordesman, of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, told FoxNews.com.

The Ukrainian troops are still mostly conscripts and the professionals are paid only half of the average Ukrainian wage. How loyal this military will be to the coup-government is yet to be seen. I do not expect it to play any significant role.

Meanwhile the U.S. as well as the EU introduced some sanctions on some Russian and Ukrainian individuals though the White House "Fact Sheet" does not even say what those sanctions are:

In response to the Russian government’s actions contributing to the crisis in Ukraine, this new E.O. lists seven Russian government officials who are being designated for sanctions. These individuals are Vladislav Surkov, Sergey Glazyev, Leonid Slutsky, Andrei Klishas, Valentina Matviyenko, Dmitry Rogozin, and Yelena Mizulina.

There seems to be no real idea why (and with what) these individuals would be sanctioned. Does it make sense to sanction people because of their "status"?

  • Valentina Matviyenko: Matviyenko is being sanctioned for her status as Head of the Federation Council
  • Dmitry Rogozin: Rogozin is being sanctioned for his status as the Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation.
  • Yelena Mizulina: Mizulina is being sanctioned for her status as a State Duma Deputy.

The sanctioned Russian people are all officials who are not even allowed to hold foreign assets. What is the U.S. going to do about them?

One paragraph in the "Fact Sheet" is a threat to Russian businessman and oligarchs:

The United States also will seek to hold accountable individuals who use their resources or influence to support or act on behalf of senior Russian government officials. We recognize that the Russian leadership derives significant support from, and takes action through, individuals who do not themselves serve in any official capacity. Our current focus is to identify these individuals and target their personal assets, but not companies that they may manage on behalf of the Russian state.

Whatever. Putin has some 70% of the Russians in favor of him. He does not have to be considerate of this or that oligarch. The Russians are laughing off this wet noodle assault. None of these sanctions will influence their decision making. They will publish a retaliatory list and equally meaningless sanction some U.S. and EU officials and that will be it.

The U.S. now has the unpleasant task to silence the blowhards and fascists in the Ukrainian puppet government and to push them to accept some meaningful constitution creating process. The Russian government will keep all options open in eastern and southern Ukraine until a new acceptable Ukrainian constitution is done and in place. It can for now sit back and amuse itself about the empty blustering coming out of Brussels and Washington DC.

Comments

Mr. P @177, if the new constitution gets written federalizing Ukraine, Russia will absolutely win. Remember that only 3 Oblasts put the nationalists in the Rada. Nationwide they got 11% of the vote, almost all of that 11% in those 3 Oblasts, unfortunately, enough in Banderastan to get parliamentarians in the Rada. The US agreed to the whole ‘non-paper’ which means a federated and DE-MILITARIZED Ukraine with no accession to NATO. I think Putin is gambling a little bit that US will honor the agreement on federation (and everything else), but he still holds big hole-cards. He won. And will keep on winning. Jodoku indeed.

Posted by: okie farmer | Mar 18 2014 14:15 utc | 201

Lizzie Phelan ‏@LizziePhelan 3h
As the west talks #sanctions #Russia ‘s richest man divests from Western companies and invests in Chinese ones http://rt.com/business/usmanov-china-apple-facebook-514/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome#.UygbnP9URpc.twitter

Posted by: brian | Mar 18 2014 14:15 utc | 202

unlike many socalled leaders, Putin kept his word to Krimea

Posted by: brian | Mar 18 2014 14:16 utc | 203

If you want to debate military strength, the U.S. would win a war, any war, with Russia very slowly conventionally, very quickly in terms of nuclear power. Either way it would be a decisive win, however, as an American, it would not be any definition of win a sane human being would pursue instead of peace. But Putin feels a need to stand up to years of U.S. adventurism, and for this I can not place blame on him. We have not been told no in a long time, and it might just be that he is doing us a favor while the penalty is a slap and not a scar.
If Russia and China were to unite however, the equation changes drastically, and I think this is the real reason Obama is in the process of backing down. Could we defeat Russia? Yes. Could we defeat Russia and China? Maybe, but not without a complete collapse of the Western economies. It seems to me the only message that meant anything going forward was Putin’s outreach to China. This is what says that sanctions will not isolate him, and may indeed boomerang on who places them. Therefore there is very little to be done other than to cut a deal, and strengthen our ties with our allies. That is, if we can figure out who they are..

Posted by: Todd Bennett | Mar 18 2014 14:20 utc | 204

‘And there will be a price to pay. As I said, ethnic Russians in other regions are disappointed and pissed off. Of course, they must think they’re just 3rd class Russians, they are unimportant because they don’t have an important Russian base. Possibly even worse, many have lost trust.
It’s an extremely important difference whether one trusts – and can trust – a straight, intelligent, integer president or whether one is depending on just another wheeler-dealer politician, even if he is intelligent.’
@1198
what utter tripe…does this felllow want Russian to invade east ukraine?
he is saying Putin is a wheeling dealng politician…whereas the shady nameless fellow is the real wheeler dealer

Posted by: brian | Mar 18 2014 14:20 utc | 205

Mr. Pragma was not the only one who said that Putin did not especially want (or was long-time plotting, whatever) to take over Crimea. I made several arguments in that direction, and wasn’t alone… However when presented with opportunity, or the situation as was in the last weeks (not that I think the Russkies were mis-informed or purely reactive, though it would be interesting to discuss that, it is unclear?), actions follow.
—-
Well once a board gets into Zio-supporter accusations it pretty much goes down the drain. Having ‘expert thinkers’ and their camp-followers leads to bickering, insults, fights, and fawning, — precisely one of the faults, failings, of US foreign policy and so called diplomacy (hidden from view..). It is disquieting to see it replicated even at such a minuscule, insignificant scale. Imho.
.. > Partly why the PTB loves the internet! Arm-chair Clausewitz-es, remember he was very ‘moral’ don’t act on the ground but face virtual enemies for their self-esteem.
I’m also somewhat dismayed by the lack of discussion of what all this means for the people of Ukraine / Crimea. See also Tom Gard at 71. “ No one here seems to consider the sincerely rebellious motives that made the Maidan a mass movement in the first place.” I’d amend that to ‘having *some* legit support’..
Sigh. (I only read part of the thread.)

Posted by: Noirette | Mar 18 2014 14:21 utc | 206

brian
Please stop salivating and gloating. I started reading Mr. Pragma’s response and I understand where he’s coming from!

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 18 2014 14:23 utc | 207

Mr P.,
There’s a lot of grey in the world. Decisively resolving that the 1954 transfer was wrong, and that you will use international law against the West was important. And now the message to Kiev and DC is that you pay a price for messing with Russia, whether in Georgia or the Ukraine.
As for the other regions in the Ukraine, well, they are going to be tougher to secure, but that is entirely logical.
Finally, it seems to be the case that what Putin wants is a Swiss model with a weak central government and neutrality. Also, there is talk that secession would be guaranteed in the new constitution. This would give the Russian areas the option of leaving, but also make some of the radical pressure in the Western Ukraine wear itself out in fighting Kiev, as opposed to the East.

Posted by: Ozawa | Mar 18 2014 14:26 utc | 208

Mr. Pragma,
You seem to think that somehow Putin has lost the moral high-ground with this move to bring in Crimea. He hasn’t. He hasn’t lost a notch. On the contrary. Only taken from the U.S. twisted angle can one see his annexation of Crimea as illegal or deviant. People voted. He respected their response. Sure it looks like the U.S. has trapped him now into selling the east down the river, but I believe that’s not going to happen. Putin’s not going to sell out anyone that’s loyal to Russia. This isn’t over! Now I’m going to read the rest of your post and I understand the nuance therein better than you think I do.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 18 2014 14:33 utc | 209

fairleft
I ignore you until I see reason to consider you as a serious and constructive participant.
@Harry (189)

Eastern/southern part might still join Crimea soon as they said before referendum.

There is no more any Crimea to join. Crimea is a Russian region now.
As for kiev, constitution, blabla – forget it. One can’t trust anything weztern or non ethnic Russian ukrainians say or sign. Don’t forget that the whole thing started as a completely criminal operation. Furthermore all those issues are internal to ukraine; in the end Russia can’t tell another country what to do or to change or not change their constitution or …
kalithea (192)

Putin is not caving. This was no doubt his plan all along. He just got a very loyal enclave and a warm-water seaport. If ships start comming into the Black Sea, he’ll have a fortress and armada lined up to greet them!

Russia would have had no less with a country “Crimea” in all but name. And Sevastopol was anyway not open for discussion.

How do you know he doesn’t have a strategy still in the works for Eastern Ukraine? You think he’s just going to fold his arms now and allow zusa and zeu to do whatever the hell they want? NEVER. You think that only zusa and zeu are expert shit disturbers? It won’t take a lot to inspire those people in Donetsk to start the break-away. Stay tuned. I believe Putin is on top of this and no way did Russia get weaker by taking in Crimea. Obama’s a jellyfish and Putin is a…blue whale!

That’s not my point. Of course, Russia can still do what they fucking please. But Putin can’t do it anymore as a president in a league of his own; he will do it as just a smarter version of all those wheeling-dealing politicians.
From a weztern perspective that might like a micro-detail but it isn’t, it’s the very core of Putins basis.
TicoTiger (193)
Well you have your pov and I have mine.
As for zusa and Russia being the only relevant players I feel you are wrong ignoring China and to a degree others (like the Alba group in South-America, although that one isn’t yet that well visible on a global scale).
okie farmer (199)
I know, I know. But as I wrote above a) as soon as things have calmed down, all those constitution issues, zato, zeu, blabla, will be an *internal* matter of a souvereign country. That’s a considerable fence Russia can’t jump across every other week.
Furthermore, anything signed by zusa or zeu or having been designed under their influence isn’t worth the ink signed with.
Also: Russias priority must not be to snack Crimea, nor even to get the ethnic Russian oblasts. It’s about a) Russia growing (not in territory) and doing well and b) breaking the zionist global oppression, plundering, and crime system and c) about *living* along a new and better world view (multipolar, constructive, partnership).
With grabbing Crimea Russia has won next to nothing and payed a very high price.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 18 2014 14:35 utc | 210

Putin wants federalization so he does not have to deal with Crimea like uproars again. If there is strong autonomy and secession is guaranteed, east and south are going to come into his orbit, without the world being able to say a word. The brilliance is not the trade, but that he essentially leveraged Crimea for the half of Ukraine, eventually, patiently, and with Western submission on top of it.

Posted by: Todd Bennett | Mar 18 2014 14:38 utc | 211

194) Oh well Russia also works with NATO.
Maybe the world is more complex than you think it is.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 18 2014 14:39 utc | 212

Mr P.,
It’s a different topic, but you might want to re-evaluate your view of Japan and the Koreas. The Abe administration has hardly said a bad word about Russia in this case, despite all the media pressure. Japan has two main factions: American servants and those who want independence and don’t exactly see that Japan was any worse than the other powers of the 20th Century. The Abe folks want to develop Eastern Russia and North Korea, and they have bad relations with SK and the US. SK is a competitor, and there is also the history of what groups make up NK and SK. The pro-Japanese forces were in NK, and the Right in Japan is full of those of NK descent. Just don’t be fooled by the fake right on the US’s payroll.

Posted by: Ozawa | Mar 18 2014 14:40 utc | 213

Todd Bennett(202)

If you want to debate military strength, the U.S. would win a war, any war, with Russia very slowly conventionally, very quickly in terms of nuclear power. Either way it would be a decisive win, however, as an American,…

The last bit is the decisive one. “as an american”.
Not meaning to attack you personally, but sorry, as a zamerican you just demonstrated the utter self-delusion and gross ignorance of the reality so typical for zamericans who, after all, lost every war except grenada and paname (which both could as well have been done with by the city police of a mid size Russian town or the militia of some zusa state).
I’m getting bored by again and again asking – without any reasonable result other than more PR – for even a basic analysis of the facts supporting that fairy-tale.
brian (203)
a) I strongly doubt that you are the brian known around here and b) you don’t deserve an answer.
Noirette (204)
You are probably right. But honestly, I for one don’t care batshit about the nazi regions or bandericia or generally ukraine. I care about Russian and about breaking zusa and zeu.
kalithea (207)
My point isn’t that the annexation might be perceived as illegal. It obviously was perfectly legal. Neither is my point that he annected Crimea (although it’s not the smartest thing to do). My issue is that he did it *now*.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 18 2014 14:50 utc | 214

Mr. Pragma
I thought I was an idealist, but you beat me to it. There is so much truth in your post. I understand where you’re coming from.

It’s an extremely important difference whether one trusts – and can trust – a straight, intelligent, integer president or whether one is depending on just another wheeler-dealer politician, even if he is intelligent.

.
Putin has not lost his integrity with this move. He respected the choice of Crimeans, that’s all. And Crimea offers him much support and is defensively and offensively strategic. This isn’t over. You’ll see. He will come out on top for the right reasons.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 18 2014 14:51 utc | 215

Why are my posts not appearing?

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 18 2014 14:51 utc | 216

kalithea, Mr. P,
Russia will eventually have more influence OVER Ukraine than any other country. Putin’s playing a ‘long game’, something US cannot do – election cycles too short, 24 hour news cycle, 24/7 propaganda that has to be rebooted constantly, etc – US is weaker in geopolitics/foreign policy than anytime in my memory. When W let the neocons take over FP, US started straight downhill, and are still losing ground. Why? because the neocons are still running the show! I understood their Zionist agenda, but never understood their love for disaster capitalism.

Posted by: okie farmer | Mar 18 2014 14:53 utc | 217

Celebrations from Russia Live
http://rt.com/on-air/celebration-reunification-crimea-moscow/

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 18 2014 14:59 utc | 218

Mr. Pragma & others
I don’t understand the flurry. What is changed?
Until Jan. 2015 at least the basic situation we had yesterday stays unchanged:
1) The Crimean Parliament declares sovereignty and independance from Ukraine.
2) The Crimean Parliament sticks to the vote of a Crimean majority they would prefer annexation to the RF to staying in Ukraine in the limits of 1992 Constitution.
3) The Crimean sovereignty ist backed by the RF (and no one else).
4) With the formal, albeit preliminary annexation treaty the president and parliament of RF are judicially empowered, to act as protecting power for Crimea, economically and by military.
5) Crimea and RF pledged to speedily and efficiently prepare for the real, the terminal judiciary annexation to the above mentioned date.
So there will be over time internal adaptions of Crimea to the RF and the RF has warned all other players, it would declare any attack on Crimea an attack on itself.
Evidently the last point is what counts for the moment beeing.
The annexation treaty is not irrevocal. As I said before, there might be objections and conditions set by the supreme russian court. The process might be delayed or slowed down by claims, that could complicate the integration of Crimean jurisdiction into the jurisdiction of RF. Any groundbreaking change in Ukrainian mainland – especially a federation – might be taken as cause and matter to repeat the referendum under new prerequisites.
So, what really happened: Crimea and RF together took the Crimea out of the “Budapest memorandum”-treaty of 1994 and made Crimea a sovereighn ally of the RF. Thats all, as far as I can see.

Posted by: TomGard | Mar 18 2014 15:02 utc | 219

kalithea, okie farmer
I don’t doubt all that. But anyway I think what I think and my question was never whether Russia could enforce whatever they fucking please on and in ukraine.
My point is that Putin acted, maybe driven by factors not yet known to us, Pardon me, stupidly and that he *did* lose at least some – in my minds eye lots of – integrity and position.
Maybe that’s something like the church and spirituality; very difficult to explain and seemingly esoteric and no important but, in fact, very very important in Russia and part of its very core and strength.
Just consider me crazy and everything is fine. *g
Ozawa
Well, I happen to know different sides of japan and particularly the opinions of some neighbours like China and sk. Not meaning to insult anyone but for me japan is a whore (as is Germany) bending over to zusa and allowing them to rape their women.
And, turn it like you want, fact is that japan threatened sanction against Russia, too.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 18 2014 15:02 utc | 220

Mr Pragma
Why are you so angry`? Are you angry that Russia hasnt taken half of Ukraine?

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 18 2014 15:04 utc | 221

The U.S. has only withdrawn from a police action, it has never lost a war. But that aside, there is no delusion here-two things come into play: first, our missiles will reach and hit their targets, if it cams down to it. Two, Russia is surrounded not just by us by NATO bases all throughout the Northern Hemisphere. There are a full 568 bases that would require a minimum assault of more warheads than they even have as first strike capability. That is before any countervalue aspirations they may have, and as we know, a second strike would not be forthcoming, as they would have been destroyed. This is still not a goal of my people. This outcome must be avoided.
Second, conventionally speaking, their only chance to fend off a conventional repelling of aggression would be to persuade Turkey to deny NATO its airstrips. This might be possible, as we know you must win the air to get the ground, but much damage could still be inflicted upon them from the north. Their soldiers and machinery are barely adequate, and probably not sufficient to take Ukraine cleanly.
But all of this is besides the point, as we have already told Russia we want no part of them. We presented massive cuts two days before he took Crimea, as if we were acceding the place to them. The U.S. is withdrawing from a policy of intervention and adventurism, perhaps at the behest of Putin, more likely at the direction of Obama, who like most of us, is sick of this country not minding its own business.

Posted by: Todd Bennett | Mar 18 2014 15:07 utc | 222

“They say we have violated international law. At least they remember about international law – better late than never.”
Vladimir Putin
18th March, 2014

Posted by: Pat Bateman | Mar 18 2014 15:09 utc | 223

Mr P.,
Japan is an occupied country, with a tremendous CIA presence in Tokyo. Many, many politicians, bureaucrats, and newsmen have been killed by the US. Those who want independence have no choice but to build a military and secret police, and then kick the US out.
Just don’t be fooled by superficial stuff. Things are not as they appear in the Orient. Except for the whore part, but that’s true of half the world.

Posted by: Ozawa | Mar 18 2014 15:17 utc | 224

@215 okie farmer
I agree almost totally. Perhaps the only point I differ from you is that I consider that the neocon cancer poisoning Americans began around the time of Kennedy’s assassination, when as you remember, daddy bush was in charge of the CIA Dallas office.
What I find very very interesting is how the normally politically apathetic Ukrainian people, certainly due in part to the non-stop corrupt and de-humanising “state” propaganda of the last 20 years or so, in a matter of a few weeks or months, have become full of life and energy.
Freedom is more powerful than Viagra 🙂

Posted by: TicoTiger | Mar 18 2014 15:20 utc | 225

Et voila, there you have it. It’s already rolling …
Putin declared that Russia is not interested in ukrainian territory.
Until yesterday it was Putin who called the shots and comfortably and cool at that. Now he has to play catch-me with allegations like “Huh! Russia just wanted to gran territory from ukraine”.
Anonymous (219)

Why are you so angry`? Are you angry that Russia hasnt taken half of Ukraine?

Bullshit! I’m angry that Putin took *any* m² of ukraine.
Todd Bennett (220)
I knew it.

first, our missiles will reach and hit their targets, if it cams down to it.

Do yourself a favor and find some reliable sources on *real world* data. Actually missiles are one area where Russia is more than a decade ahead of zusa.
Don’t worry, the day were you find out the truth about zusas military power will come. Hopefully soon.
End of discussion.
Ozawa
I would like, I would really like to think well about japan. After all they have a long culture, smart minds, high tech, etc. But I’m afraid that is all under the shadow created by being quite *willing* whores of zusa.
You see, to slit the throat of a zamerican rapist is a thing one doesn’t need politicians for.
For now I can only offer to respect many japanese people – but not their country. No way.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 18 2014 15:26 utc | 226

Mr. P, I too wish Putin had played it differently (what have Western promises ever been worth? Just ask any Native American: approximately nothing except as a guarantee they’ll be broken). But we’re sitting here on the sidelines, and even with all of the knowledge, brains and collective experience here, there are still a whole lot of factors I am sure he knows quite well and we don’t even know exist. So it’s a matter of trusting his judgment and strategic skills — which is all we can do anyway but they’ve served Russia, and the entire world, quite well so far. Just remember, it ain’t over yet, and you can pretty much rest assured that a) he knows the score, and b) he’s got a few more aces up his sleeve.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 18 2014 15:27 utc | 227

What’s going on I can’t see new posts??? Okay let me try this again:
Mr. Pragma
I read the rest of your post. I thought I was an idealist, but you beat me to it. There is so much truth in your post. I understand where you’re coming from.

It’s an extremely important difference whether one trusts – and can trust – a straight, intelligent, integer president or whether one is depending on just another wheeler-dealer politician, even if he is intelligent.

Putin has not lost his integrity with this move. He respected the choice of Crimeans, that’s all. And Crimea offers him much support and is defensively and offensively strategic. Putin didn’t sell Russians in East Ukraine down the river either. He would never sell-out people who are loyal to Russia. This isn’t over. You’ll see. He will come out on top for the right reasons.
Hell, if Obama didn’t get the Nobel Prize; I’d say give Putin the Nobel Prize! But because both Obama and Shimon Peres have it; forget it, it’s tainted forever.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 18 2014 15:36 utc | 228

I’ve been reading and watching Russian media today. Celebrations all over Russia about the news. The west has given the Russian nation the gift of unity. The western meddling in the Ukraine brought the people of Russia together. What was probably a western attempt to divide Russians and cause internal dissension has brought about the exact opposite results in Russia. And with their sanctions, hysterical hate rhetoric and totally transparent denial of the realities, the west keeps on giving. And giving…and giving….

Posted by: scalawag | Mar 18 2014 15:38 utc | 229

kalithea
FYI: Your posts *did* arrive here and can be seen.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 18 2014 15:41 utc | 230

Russia knows the score, short of NATO’s map, no war. Touch a Baltic, and Russia is finished.

Posted by: Todd Bennett | Mar 18 2014 15:43 utc | 231

Todd,
??? The US hasn’t lost because it uses different words. I’m impressed. Vietnam was simply a revocation of the police’s authority. Got it. And the rest of your post leaves a lot to be desired. Where is this massive land force the US is going to send? And the entire European side of NATO is going to fight to not fight, as they would easily get wiped out.
If you are talking about NATO kicking Russia out of the Ukraine, that sounds wild. For one thing, are you assuming that the Ukrainian military is helping the Russians or fighting them? The Ukrainian Nazis are building a National Guard as the military is refusing to act in the way Kiev wants. The current junta will be lucky to last three months.
Finally, war is the extension of politics. The US has largely failed in Syria and succeeded in Libya, at least in the view of those behind the wars. If the US backed down in Georgia and Syria, what political situation would allow the US to go to the mat in the Ukraine?

Posted by: Ozawa | Mar 18 2014 15:43 utc | 232

Mr Pragma
What should Russia have done then?

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 18 2014 15:45 utc | 233

@221 Pat Bateman
Love that quote. He’s on fire with that one!

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 18 2014 15:48 utc | 234

@228 Mr. Pragma
Yes, but I couldn’t see them and only started seeing them again now. I couldn’t even see all your new posts and your replies! Very odd. The main page was showing 225 and I could only see up to 210 or 211
Oh and I get why you said it’s the why now?. But I still think he made the right move.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 18 2014 16:00 utc | 235

@228 I think I figured it out. This thread has 3 pages already, and I was looking on page 2. Wow!!
And say what you will, I get it; but right now Putin’s Da Maaan!

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 18 2014 16:12 utc | 236

@ Sorrentine : Depending on what part of North America you’re from, it may be easy and seem cost-free to score points by taking cheap shots at Southerners, but that doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do. Neil Young and Jerry Lewis did it, and they ended up looking really stupid.

Posted by: Snake Arbusto | Mar 18 2014 16:17 utc | 237

Todd Bennett@220
You need to share some of whatever you have been smoking, dude. Obama is like a puppet on a stick. He’ll do whatever his masters tell him to do. There’s no choice in the matter. I’m a US citizen, born here to the descendants of Appalachian immigrants from Ireland and Scotland, and I am truly disgusted by what ‘our’ country has become in the last fifty years. I’m really enjoying the tutoring Putin and Russia are giving the neocon idiots currently running the show in the US, and I can’t wait to see the next act.

Posted by: Jim T | Mar 18 2014 16:17 utc | 238

@ MikeMaloney @61
“The next step back then should have been a massive civil disobedience campaign. It never happened, and it did long-term damage, I think, to the anti-war left.”
It’s all Jim Morrison’s and Frank Zappa’s fault.

Posted by: Snake Arbusto | Mar 18 2014 16:20 utc | 239

The speech today by Putin is being hailed as the most important speech of his career. Here is a video of it in Russian: http://news.kremlin.ru/video/1733
And here is the transcript. It’s in Russian but auto translates well: http://news.kremlin.ru/transcripts/20603

Posted by: scalawag | Mar 18 2014 16:25 utc | 240

So here’s what happened: when the thread changed to page 3, I was putting in my last comment on page 2 and the commment disappeared to page 3 and when I’d close and link I kept stopping and commenting on page 2 because I didn’t notice there was a “next page”, because usually threads go on only 2 pages! Lord! I felt like everyone moved on to the other room and I walked into the CLOSET!
Feels good to see you all again…lol.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 18 2014 16:27 utc | 241

The next act,
lets hope there is no next act. Blink and you might miss it.

Posted by: Todd Bennett | Mar 18 2014 16:30 utc | 242

In a perfect world, Zionists would be lined up BEHIND the pre-67 lines and Putin would be demanding, not asking NITYAHOO to: TEARRR DOWN THAT WAAALLLL!

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 18 2014 16:39 utc | 243

Ozawa
His (the zamerican wet dreams idiots) problem is a classical zamerican one: He mixes up “create maximum damage” and “winning a war”.
Honestly, based on my experience I think that’s not even a problem of euphemising rhetorics but of self-delusion and blunt stupidity.
You also see that when zamericans (shockingly many of them) are completely out of touch with reality and actually believe the bullshit they are fed with by their media.
Also: Did you note how robot-like zamericans use certain – and usually grandstanding – phrases like some village sheriff blabbering about him “being proud to service my country” bla bla. That’s just another symptom of a people completely void of content, culture, brains and desperately trying to balance that by ever grander bla bla and delusions.
Anonymous (231)
Simple. Keep the Crimea question somewhat open (yesterdays status was just perfect) and the repeat the “it’s not us. It’s the people themselves” on the larger scale with the southern/eastern regions. Finally, after some weeks or a few months declare “Gee, that’s a whole lot of people having separated and joined Crimea. Obviously the right thing to do is to create a new state/country. And sure enough, we (Russia) will be best friends and supporters of that new country”.
Then Putin could have said – and right fully so and, more importantly, matching his major guideline – “See, we never wanted any piece of ukraine. We merely supported ethnic Russian regions that understandably didn’t stay in a nazi country created by zusa/zeu sponsored terrorists and nazis. It was *their*, the peoples idea, wishes, and achievement. We just helped according to international standards. And we hope hat zusa/zeu learn sth. from that, namely to not crudely ignore international rules and to not meddle in the internal affairs of souvereign states”.
Better for (southern/eastern) ukraine, better for Russia, worse for zusa/zeu left with the worthless western ukraine garbage can.
General remark.
I have no bad feelings toward american humans (you know, those relatively few homo sapiens with brains, some culture and and a more sound understanding of the world and reality than dogs or pigs) but zusa must be broken, zusa war ships must be sunken, zusa army must be annihilated, zusa air force must be shot out of the skies (or sunken along with the carriers), dollar must be destroyed, zusa corporations must be broken.
And those zamericans which can’t point at Iraq and Afghanistan on a globe yet are for war against those countries (read: The majority) … well, who cares, no loss whatsoever, anyway.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 18 2014 16:40 utc | 244

On second thought: In a perfect world, there would be NO ZIONISM.
And no, that doesn’t mean what the crybabies accused Ahmedinejad of.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 18 2014 16:43 utc | 245

In a perfect world, Zionists would be lined up BEHIND the pre-67 lines and Putin would be demanding, not asking NITYAHOO to: TEARRR DOWN THAT WAAALLLL!

Sorry, no.
In a not completely rotten world izrael wouldn’t exist at all.
Sometimes I heard someone say that izrael is a good thing because like that they can be completely annihilated comfortably.
I say No. No because of the immense pain they brought to palestians and no, because a nuke would harm other regions, too.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 18 2014 16:44 utc | 246

Meanwhile, courtesy of BOT TAK (can’t do Cyrillic) over at the Saker:
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_03_18/US-halts-Syrian-Embassy-consulate-operations-tells-diplomats-to-leave-4144/
sigh. Next…

Posted by: Nora | Mar 18 2014 16:47 utc | 247

Germany to sanction Russia the most. This could develop to an act of war by Germany.
http://presstv.com/detail/2014/03/18/355183/economic-war-with-russia-in-the-making/

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 18 2014 16:47 utc | 248

Alrighty then did not realize this was an anti-semitic blog.

Posted by: Todd Bennett | Mar 18 2014 16:48 utc | 249

Ukraine PM: Crimea conflict enters military stage http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-pm-crimea-conflict-enters-military-stage-161432770–sector.html
That doesn’t look like an off ramp to me.

Posted by: scalawag | Mar 18 2014 16:51 utc | 250

Ha ha, good god, there he is talking about annihilating Russia with nuclear bombs, now he’s shocked, shocked, to find ‘anti-Semitism’ here. Wernher von Braun never had that problem when he was working for you, did he – and he was an SS Major!

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Mar 18 2014 16:54 utc | 251

kalithea #245. Yes. But the question, just like with the Ukrainian Neo-Nazis or American hegemony, is how do you get there from here.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 18 2014 16:57 utc | 252

I was asked a specific question of why we would win a war. I do not want to annihilate Russia, just did not realize this was a loonball blog.

Posted by: Todd Bennett | Mar 18 2014 16:58 utc | 253

Mr. Pragma
Watch out; your kindness is showing from your sleeve; it’ll cramp your style.
@248 Merkel’s already in political hot water. I’m sure the German people will be thrilled to know they’re working for Greece and now Ukraine. Maybe Merkel should adopt these welfare states while she’s at it with all the billions she’s ready to throw away!

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 18 2014 16:59 utc | 254

@252
AMERICAN REVOLUTION II

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 18 2014 17:03 utc | 255

@249
ZIONISM is the worst form of Anti-Semitism and if you don’t get that, then how could you possibly get the prescient level of discussion on this site?
Happy travels, wherever,…don’t let the door hit…on second thought, why not let the door do the job.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 18 2014 17:08 utc | 256

“This is still not a goal of my people. This outcome must be avoided.” Yeah, right, while you drool over it.
Disingenuous mountebanks! -Homer Simpson

Posted by: ruralito | Mar 18 2014 17:08 utc | 257

#252 Have you seen the (size of) the average Wal-Mart shopper? ;~)
I’m pretty sure any leaders anywhere with any sense know our crumbling economy will do us in; they’ve just got to treat us very gingerly in the meantime bc crazy, stupid and lots of weapons is a bad combination. But the American public has been very carefully trained by the media and our oligarchs — when things get really awful here, maybe, they’ll get it. Maybe. But I wouldn’t count on it for a couple of generations, unfortunately. More likely, we’ll make Russia in the 1990’s look like a paradise. But at least the rest of the world will be safe from us. Now Zionism (just another kind of Nazism)? How DO you stop that? And can it be done while there are still Palestinians and some unpaved remnant of their land? I used to think so; not so sure any more.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 18 2014 17:13 utc | 258

Rowan Berkeley (251)
That asshole even doesn’t have the slightest clue that screaming “anti-semitism!” is but a shameful form of capitulation.
Nora (247)
That was to be expected. zusa isn’t capable of just shutting up and minding its own business.
Frankly, I hoping for military aggression. It’s about time zusa finally gets what it has so aggressively begged for so long a time.
It’s obvious. As long as those criminals in washington and the animals in uniform obeying them have warships on top instead of on the bottom of the seas they will continue to terrorize the world.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 18 2014 17:13 utc | 259

Mr P #259. Yup. When he heard the vote tally, my husband’s first word was “Venezuela”. We’re waiting for that, too.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 18 2014 17:15 utc | 260

Todd brags cause U.S. debt is at 17.5 trillion, cities are going bankrupt, soup kitchens are on the rise, Wall Street is living large while Congress is cutting food stamps to the poor, Americans are being spied on up to their culottes and budoires, and the U.S. is occupied Zionist territory owned by the Chinese! Ni-hao! mazeltov!

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 18 2014 17:27 utc | 261

Mr Pragma
I find it strange how you as a supposed Russian sit here and support a war. Majority of russians certainly dont want any war. The millions that died in WW2 is more than enough.

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 18 2014 17:45 utc | 262

Mina
Seems like yatzi is preparing the ukrainains for war.
Bet obama, EU, nato pushed him to this.

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 18 2014 18:07 utc | 264

And just to make it clear, that’s Obomber last move
http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/97001.aspx

Posted by: Mina | Mar 18 2014 18:09 utc | 265

@210
Mr Pragma, I still don’t see your opinion clearly enough as a whole. Thanks for providing so verbose comments, but mb they’re too verbose to get the whole picture.
Anyway, I start to see some points where I clearly don’t agree with you.
>> Of course, Russia can still do what they fucking please.
No, it can not in any sense. As many mentioned here this is the crisis Russia did not create. It has to answer. Russia “can” just military occupy Ukraine. In my opinion, this is *considerable* given the stakes and options. [I guess that’s exactly why I’m not in power to project that opinion.] What Russia get then is clearly West-Ukranian terrorism inside and some international condemnation. Not sure which one is worse, but real international sanctions *will* hurt Russia really much.
I don’t care it will hurt Germany or whoever else since trade is mutual – overall, the impact of trade isolation would be greater for Russia – it didn’t work even for USSR, having export <2% GDP in 80s. Now, Russia's both export and import account each for >20% GDP. Technologically, 2000s recovery is still not anywhere close to recover to anything even slightly reminding autarky. Even if assisted by all the China+India+all “another international community”. I do industrial software development for living, I know what I’m talking about.
>> With grabbing Crimea Russia has won next to nothing and payed a very high price.
And here we come to where we begin. Russia didn’t start this crisis, and didn’t really want it (see below). So it doesn’t have to choose between good ways, it has too choose between a number of evils.
1st of all, don’t worry, Putin clearly declared the primary target today – and that is ***”friendly non-NATO Ukraine”***. He didn’t specify if it should be a state or just some geography region as it was all the time except some singular recently. The crisis shown, as he did stated, that this situation is endangered – the [neutral-friendly] state failed. In this situation, Crimea integration looks like a very modest move to affirm firm control at the most vulnerable part (Sevastopol navy base) at the very least price (97% yes, I guess much better than in Biryulyovo-Tovarnaya Moscow district). This is also a diplomatic move. One *may* look at it as the acceptance of the fact that all the other territory will never be “100% friendly”. It doesn’t mean Russia accepts anything <60% friendly on less important territories. Or mb 80%. I'm not in Putin's mind and don't have enough data overall. So sad.
Personally, I feel some relief - finally, he made some move. Mb this move looks too shy but I'll celebrate it anyway by going to Crimea on vacation this summer. Tired to visit poor-english-speaking-poor tropic ppl each year.

Posted by: Sergey | Mar 18 2014 18:27 utc | 266

from al Jazeera;
It said self-defence fighters were shot by a sniper from an uncompleted building opposite a Ukrainian military base, which is flying a Russian flag.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/03/ukrainian-serviceman-wounded-crimea-201431815240891892.html

Posted by: okie farmer | Mar 18 2014 18:39 utc | 267

Anonymous (262)

I find it strange how you as a supposed Russian sit here and support a war. Majority of russians certainly dont want any war. The millions that died in WW2 is more than enough.

Unless one is ready to accept zusa global terrorism for the foreseeable future or one believes in fairy tales like zusa suddenly stopping their military aggressions by some miracle war seems to be the only way to solve the problem.
I’m not afraid. zusa will under no circumstances risk a nuclear war (which is bound to lead to zusa complete annihiliation) and they will be rather quickly be defeated. Simply because it’s not about conquering zusa but about sinking some dozen ships. Sink the core of their carrier groups and zusa is militarily crippled.
Some say that the problem could be solved by breaking the dollar; I disagree. Because zusa actually *is* financially broken since years. They simply increased mil. spending and started even more terrorist aggressions, no matter how many zamericans have to live in poverty.
Actually I think the problem isn’t even so much a military one but rather Russias leaders hesitating and not desiring to be mentioned as those starting the big war in history books.
All the negotiations, diplomacy, and talking is nice and all but in the end there is only one solution: to break zusa and to take care for izrael and its agents all over the world. And pretty all the major problems on this planet either are or can be solved.
Oh and btw: There are millions and millions every year who die thanks to zio-american terror, be it of a military, of en economic or other nature. It might seem comfortable to avoid war to save lives; actually, however, *not* breaking zusa and destroying israel and killing all its agents is killing way more people.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 18 2014 18:40 utc | 268

Pragma: Please don’t respond if your responses are going to continue to be angry, trollish, ad hominem and/or off-topic. I’ll know that I’ve had the hoped for impact if I see you stop saying dumb/wrong stuff like the following:

As I said, ethnic Russians in other regions are disappointed and pissed off. Of course, they must think they’re just 3rd class Russians, they are unimportant because they don’t have an important Russian base. Possibly even worse, many have lost trust.

Nearly all ethnic Russians in other regions, being vastly outnumbered by ethnic Ukrainians, of course will be neither disappointed by nor pissed off at Mr. Putin. Only a tiny minority (who don’t know Putin’s track record) would’ve thought there was any chance that Russia would try to annex majority Ukrainian territory. The vast majority of course do not consider non-annexation as a message from Putin that they’re “not important,” they just are aware that Putin never annexes where Russians are not a majority.
Russian-speaking citizens of south and east Ukraine do hope and expect Putin to do his best to protect their language rights and their region’s economic orientation toward Russia. We’ll have to wait and see how well Putin does regarding that. But he seems to be on a roll right now …

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 18 2014 18:44 utc | 269

@269
> and see how well Putin does regarding that. But he seems to be on a roll right now …
Why is that – what’s “to be on a roll” ? Did you read to much of CNN recently ? He made a humble move – accepted Russian region back. He doesn’t want to ignite the nukes with greedy “west” – he made it *very polite* to make sure anyone who does not read too much of CNN is be able to accept it.
There could be someone ruling Russia “on the roll”. I don’t think Latvia would talk about EU compensating sanctions them then today.

Posted by: Sergey | Mar 18 2014 18:51 utc | 270

Pragma @244:

Then Putin could have said … “See, we never wanted any piece of ukraine. We merely supported ethnic Russian regions that understandably didn’t stay in a nazi country …

There _are_ no other “ethnic Russian regions” in Ukraine other than Crimea. You’re wrong on that fact, and your false impression generates your unwarranted anger at Putin. All you needed to do a week ago was go to the Wikipedia file I pointed you toward. Here it is again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ukraine_census_2001_Ukrainians.svg

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 18 2014 19:04 utc | 271

Mr Pragma
No one here likes NATO/Western wars but that doesnt mean we should cheer for wars against them or anyone else imho.

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 18 2014 19:04 utc | 272

Sergei @270: You’ve read a lot into “on a roll.” And Mr Pragma still has made a bonehead error assessing the feelings toward Putin of the ethnic Russians of Ukraine.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 18 2014 19:11 utc | 273

Sergey
Forgive me to not address all points again but to rather concentrate one one specific but decisive point.
It’s the old problem symbolized, for instance, in kiev some weeks ago. If there are two sides and one side respects the law and the rules but the other side systematically and even strategically does not, the “good” side is *bound to loose*.
Just look at your own worries about western ukraine sending terrorists into Russia. There you have it again.
Notwithstanding all admiration for Putins intelligence and excellent will to behave as a good statesmen – this also factually empowers zusa.
Just look at it this way: Taking a position of “I will not use (mil) force unless you *directly* attack me. And even then I would strongly prefer to talk, to try diplomacy, etc” – if confronted with an opponent that plain shits on rules and laws and by his decided strategy *will* break rules and laws and will steal, plunder, maim, kill, send in terrorists and nazis, etc. your nice position basically translates to “do whatever you please. Just try to avoid to attack me directly when I’m awake. Wait till Isleep or till I’m ill”
You, the correct, lawful party, will lose. Always. Guaranteed.
I prefer the lawful, constructive, let’s be friends way, too. But if it’s the only way I have available I’m bound to getting fucked hard and hurting.
So, coming back to your ukraine terrorist example. Simple.
Occupy *all* of ukraine. Hang the nazi thugs. Do it publicly. And beat them brutally first, publicly, too.
Next, debrief “yats” and get all data and facts. Use violence generously. Do *not* hide it behind make up. Then beat him and his rat friends up. Beat them up generously, brutally and publicly. Then throw them in a jail.
Then bomb all mil. installations in the western nazi oblasts, beat up their mayors functionnairies (if nazi).
For good measure send some missiles into poland, too. Mil. installations only. And only a few missiles. As a signal. Publicly tell tusk and the other zusa whores to shut up or else …
Finally tell all the bandera fans in ukraine that a village will be destroyed for each and every act of terrorism in Russia.
Well noted, *not* because I love violence. But because those guys do not accept normal fences. Actually the “grey” region between normal fences (laws, rules, etc.) and the point where you are ready to react with force is *their very fucking main area of action*.
And that’s exactly what zusa does, too. They always use the grey zone, the decisive border of which is the line behind which you are willing to go hard on them. They send terrorists to ukraine – they get away with it. They bomb Libya into oblivion – they get away with it. They terrorize Syria – they get away with it. aso, aso.
And that’s why *only* blunt force and handed out generously will stop zusa.
One must understand that Putins friendly peaceful line (unless Russia herself is attacked) actually puts responsibility and guilt on Russia! Because (unlike ten years ago) Russia *could* stop zusa. But they don’t. They talk. blabla. – And zusa *already is continuing* (Venezuela, Syria)!
Ceterum censeo israel americanamque vehementer delenda esse!

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 18 2014 19:13 utc | 274

How many times can the kosovo declaring west say that they dont recognize Crimea?
Also US seems to want to occupy EU even more with Biden in the europe now warmongering.

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 18 2014 19:13 utc | 275

fairleft
Which part of “I do not discuss with you” was not intellegible for you?
Bark at another tree!

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 18 2014 19:15 utc | 276

@271
>> There _are_ no other “ethnic Russian regions” in Ukraine other than Crimea.
fairleft, this is not entirely true. At least, it’s not that simple as you try to picture it, intentionally or not.
This very same map shows 22-24% “Ukranians” in Crimea. Considering it *out of context*, you may explain that 97% for Russia out of 80% on Sunday by a very few options: 1) fraud 2) many ukranians voted “yes to russia” (and it’s known some “Russians” voted “no”).
If you’re anywhere closer to local reality though, it doesn’t look that much different. All the years till 2000s Western Ukranian nazi surge it was widely believed that Russian/Ukranian/Belorussian are more or less the same. One could **choose** the nationality declared depending on his views/mood or the question itself. My farther is “Belorussian” who doesn’t speak Belorussian language. Depending on my nonconformism mood in my young years, I declared myself Belorussian too. Actually, I’m Ukranian 1/8 and my “Russian” grandma lived in Dnepropetrovsk till 60s so I could declare myself “Ukranian” as well.
I was born in Siberia near Novosibirsk and left after school. Talking to my classmates and other region ppl later in 90s I was surprised by their chauvinism – many of them inclined to “declare independence” and “proclaim Siberian nation”.
Many ppl declaring themselves “Ukranians” in a territory called Ukraine until recently did so not ‘coz they do have some separate culture but ‘coz they feel they found guilty – and that is the central government in Moscow. They’re right. And instead of trying to fight for there rights in representation, they just gave up.
The problem is in Western Ukraine nazi. It’s well-known they represented ~20% in Lvov region in 1991. In 90s, the US bumped this number to ~80% in Lvov and to 20-40% in Ukraine total. These are the “Ukranians” who have nothing in common with the “Ukranians” from that wiki page.

Posted by: Sergey | Mar 18 2014 19:28 utc | 277

Pragma @274: So your serious suggestion is to start a war with NATO, since Russia sending those few missiles into Poland would trigger that. NATO, which accounts for more than 70% of world military spending, while Russia is at 5%.
The military-industrial complexes of the world applaud you.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 18 2014 19:34 utc | 278

@274
>> Then bomb all mil. installations in the western nazi oblasts, beat up their mayors functionnairies (if nazi).
>> For good measure send some missiles into poland, too. Mil. installations only. And only a few missiles. As a signal. Publicly tell tusk and the other zusa whores to shut up or else …
I’d really enjoy the show. But politics are cowards in any country. And mb that’s the reason we still didn’t get WW3. Hope you’ve seen “dr strangelove” – politics, unlike all the rest, not much changed since 60s – still about dick lengths.

Posted by: Sergey | Mar 18 2014 19:37 utc | 279

Sergey @277: Despite its problems, the 2001 survey is the best data available. Even if you subtracted 20% from the ‘Ukrainians’ numbers, you’d still have only two regions in the far east as majority non-Ukrainian. And the map also shows that the ethnicity realities are very very different in Crimea compared to the rest of Ukraine. That provides a very good clue why Putin felt very comfortable accepting Crimea into the Russian Federation. From the ethnicity map you can at least say that only in Crimea would you have 80-85% or more of the citizens voting for union with Russia.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 18 2014 19:45 utc | 280

@237
I’ve replied to your southern nonsense in the open thread here.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Mar 18 2014 19:45 utc | 281

@278
fairleft, based on your comments, I may confirm you do read CNN too much.
>> NATO, which accounts for more than 70% of world military spending, while Russia is at 5%.
As you probably know, the best and fastest way to improve GDP is to force one-half of the population to dig and the other half to pay for that. Not that it would change your dinner or your health care but GDP improvement guaranteed.
Now back on topic – I don’t have an idea where did you get those numbers but even @ http://www.globalfirepower.com/ you may have some more relevant data.
The point is, they have a good disclaimer there – “not considering nukes”.
Russia is indeed weaker in conventional weapons than the whole NATO combined this days. And this is EXACTLY the reason why Russian doctrine clearly states Russia will use nuclear weapons in case of conventional overwhelming attack on any Russian interests. What we have today, is NATO-Russia balance reversed – that’s exactly what NATO used to declare in ColdWar years when USSR conventional weapons been overwhelming.

Posted by: Sergey | Mar 18 2014 19:45 utc | 282

Sergey @282: Mr Pragma is seriously suggesting that the best course of action for Russia is to invade and take over Ukraine and also send some missiles into Poland. You haven’t criticized his proposal.
You’ve said nothing about that. Nothing. Just saying.
Instead you’re trolling me with the CNN ad hominem (you can find the “more than 70%” figure many places, including in Wikipedia) and talking about Russia policy for when it is under attack. Of course I was not talking about Russia’s defense strategy, but about Mr Pragma’s suggestion that Russia launch an entirely conventional attack on Ukraine.
As a Russian, how do you feel about the idea that Russia should attack and roll across Ukraine, and send a few missiles into Poland apparently just to ensure a NATO counterattack? This is a serious suggestion by Mr Pragma.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 18 2014 19:53 utc | 283

@283
>> As a Russian, how do you feel about the idea that Russia should attack and roll across Ukraine, and send a few missiles into Poland apparently just to ensure a NATO counterattack? This is a serious suggestion by Mr Pragma.
As for Ukraine – I do support “roll over” Ukraine to suppress nazi activities which are *wide & wild* there. And then let them go free – no one wants to change the “new status-quo” created in 1991.
I must admit though that this opinion is *not* shared by most of Russian citizens. And I do admit that this kind of move is brutal, I just see it as the best of the alternatives we’re facing after “west” aggression.
As for Poland – surely I’m against any “preliminary punitive” measures against NATO – as should be anyone in NATO country related to actions vs Russia.
Finally, you said
>> Instead you’re trolling me
Well. Not that I wanted but you gave a good reason. “**%” of GDP on military doesn’t directly relate to real military capabilities, as well as “Ukranian census”.
PS. Thanks for asking direct question. I like it direct.

Posted by: Sergey | Mar 18 2014 20:07 utc | 284

Sergey (282)

Russia is indeed weaker in conventional weapons than the whole NATO combined this days. And this is EXACTLY the reason why Russian doctrine clearly states Russia will use nuclear weapons in case of conventional overwhelming attack on any Russian interests.

I disagree half. What you say is right – for ca. 15 years. Since about 5 years that has been changing and today it’s definitely not true anymore.
Agreed, Russias whole rebuild budget over ca. 10 years is lower than 2 years of zusas mil. budget.
There are, however, buts. To name a few:
– Unlike 10 years ago Russia today *knows* that virtually all zusa major future programs (e.g. F-35) are excessively expensive and pre-mature, possibly even not viable.
– Russias costs for analog systems is around 1/3rd of zusa costs. So, where Russia spends 100 bln$ zusa needed to spend 300-400bln for comparable systems.
– zusa failed to keep up and actually fell even more back in advanced missile systems. Russia clearly has considerably better anti-air, anti-ship and surface to surface missile systems.
The last point carries very much weight. For one it sets zusa at an extremely disadvanteous and murderous position cost wise. When Russia can kill a carrier worth 7bln$ with a 98% hit rate at the cost of 3 jachont type missiles (cost: less than 10 mio$) the cost ratio is around 1:500+ which makes it all but impossible for zusa to enter denied waters (and consequently to launch attacks). The situation with aircraft/anti-aircraft is similar also way less brutal; the cost ratio there is in the range of 1:50 – 1:75, still a quite certain path to lose a war before it really begins.
To put it in another perspective: zusa has always strongly relied on a simple advantageous fact. It’s far away from where it creates havoc, i.e. zusa virtually never had to expect to bring itself into danger. Now, Russia (and to a degree) China turn this into their favour because by being able a) to create denial zones pretty anywhere they please they increase zusas costs and logistics (and need for weapons, which again must be purchased first) very considerably and b) to attack and with a high probability sink zusas carrier groups they use zusas remoteness from the war theaters as disadvantage against zusa.
Btw. My point above was *not* that Russia should start a war with zusa but rather that Russia must bridge the distance between the point where she’s willing today to engage in war and the commonly accepted international “fence” (law, rules, agreements, etc.) that is, a) by clearly showing that Russia is *willing* to engage in war at a way earlier point than before and b) by provoking war but in a context that allows zusa/zato to explain it away (e.g. “Oh, well poland acted so confrontingly and Russia felt so aggressed that they went a little too far but that can be understood”). Then it would be *zato* to enter a cycle of making noises but seeking diplomatic resolution.
Or, to put it bluntly: the maidan terrorists – like zusa – dared to do what they did because they counted on the state to play according to rules. Had they thought that Berkut will use all necessary force incl. weapons and killing terrorists, they wouldn’t have started their dirty game in the firs place.
Also noteworthy: zusa playing deliberately and strategically along that dirty “grey zone” doctrine of course *knows* that game and – quelle surprise! – is amongst the most brutal regimes in suppressing and crushing any protest in the earliest stages with utmost brutality (e.g. Occupy). Of course! zusa certainly doesn’t want any real protests to ever gain any critical mass.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 18 2014 20:34 utc | 285

285
me i prefer the facts; empirically based
not your melomaniac metaphysics
the world is far more complex than your tom clancy reading of it

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 18 2014 20:53 utc | 286

remembereringgiap (286)
So, where are your facts?
All I saw was some blabla and unasked for personal judgement.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 18 2014 20:55 utc | 287

Mr Pragma @285
>> There are, however, buts. To name a few:
>> – Unlike 10 years ago Russia today *knows* that virtually all zusa major future programs (e.g. F-35) are excessively expensive and pre-mature, possibly even not viable.
>> – Russias costs for analog systems is around 1/3rd of zusa costs. So, where Russia spends 100 bln$ zusa needed to spend 300-400bln for comparable systems.
So what?? What it means is that Russia just given up the lead. Of course it’s cheaper to fire “Igla” than modern fighter. It’s always cheaper to go next. The point is that you *will stay next*.
Russia’s military today is like the Russia now except for having *extremely good* heritage. If not the heritage, it would be worse than China/India/Iran and many other countries with underdeveloped HighTech industry. Today, that’s enough to depose aggression but not enough to project force.
And all the modern politics, like century above, shows that it’s all about force and dick lengths.
Russia is not the global power anymore. But the problem is ***not*** about Russia been global power or not.
The problem is that the “west” ***just denies existence for Russia***, like Germany in WW2. Russians everywhere are not humans in western mind, they’re just carriers for some communist or imperialist or whateveryouhate ideology.
That is what is called fascism/Nazism and it will fail. At a price.
Even browser told me that I have to write “Nazism” starting with capitals.

Posted by: Sergey | Mar 18 2014 21:02 utc | 288

About
Moon Of Alabama
This site’s purpose is to discuss politics, economics, philosophy and blogger Billmon’s Whiskey Bar writings.
Some time ago, the commenting at Billmon’s Whiskey Bar became a bit excessive. Billmon therefore closed the comments at his place on June 29, 2004. The community of commentators was left behind to search for a new place.
Moon Of Alabama was opened as an independent, open forum for members of the Whiskey Bar community.
Bernhard started and still runs the site. Once a while you will also find posts and art from regular commentators.
The name of the original Whiskey Bar was taken from Bertolt Brecht’s Alabama Song where the first line goes:
“Show me the way to the next whiskey bar”.
The name Moon of Alabama was taken from the first line of the chorus of that song:
“Oh, moon of Alabama …”.
The design of this site has been directly stolen or re-engineered from the Whiskey Bar site.
You can reach the current administrator of this site by emailing Bernhard at MoonofA_at_aol.com (replacing _at_ with @).
Ckick here or the logo to go back to the main screen and feel free to poke around.
I need to inform you on this blog about the progress I made wrt my promise on Monday, march 17, here: “I will not allow that the artistic and political, anti-fascist heritage of Kurt Weill, Bertolt Brecht , but also of groups like “The Doors” is drawn into the dirt under the name “Moon of Alabama”. The name does not belong to you, (b), but to all of mankind. There are plenty of right-wing , fascist and conspiratorial blogs worldwide. Moon of Alabama will not be a part of them.”
Bernhard, the blog owner and operator, didn’t react to my letter which I published here on the blog but also sent to him via the a.m. e-mail. Instead he thought he could just react in the same authoritarian way like his big political model, Mr Putin, by shouting to me here on the blog: Shut Up. Since more than 58 years now such an authoritarian mood could never impress me. I had hoped that b would see that I was offering him a “way out” the problems on this blog he had created himself by allowing all the garbage here to be published. But he didn’t took my free advise.
The word machine “Mr. Pragma” immediately afterwards continued to spill its annihilation fantasies, antisemitic BS and personal slanders against nearly everybody here. As I already stated on last Sunday in another thread: “But maybe the “Mr Pragma” isn’t a real person; I rather think the character has been developed by some secret services – maybe the CIA or other “zionists” – to destroy the reputation of this blog by spreading antisemite, antidemocratic and authoritarian thoughts. I cannot imagine who else would be in a position to always write and comment without obviously going to work and having a private life apart from the internet.” I now know that in reality “Mr. Pragma” is a computer program developed by a democracy loving russian (?) info technician, self-composing textes from 80% right wing russian parties and government propaganda scrap and BS garnished with 10% annihilation fantasies and also 10% personal slanders, just attacking the bloggers who appear before him. Contrary to my believe on Sunday I think it rather destroys the reputation and credibility of everything coming from the russian government and out of Putins mouth – that’s because the programme must have been developed by a democracy loving russian.
Now, with b not anwsering to my letter I had to take the next step: he and me is living in Germany, we know about each other. We both and this blog fall under german and european jurisdiction. That means he is directly and personally responsible for all the hatred and insults and other garbage published here if he doesn’t distance himself from it and deletes it. Otherwise he may face criminal persecution for holocaust denial and personal insults like zionist rat, asshole etc., at least against me. You’ll find it all in the threads.
So today I sent him another letter by registered mail and e-mail demanding that he cleans his blog and takes care that in future there will be a civilised way of discussing what is being described in the first sentence above, “the site’s purpose”. This letter has been written just personally by me, no help by a lawyer because I still think he is a rational thinking person. So no costs involved so far. But if I’m forced to send a third letter then it will be done by my laywer and will cost more than just money.
Now I can literally feel how some of you bloggers here are already sharpening their pencils and spilling the next salvo of insults against me. But, stop and take care: everything you spit against me here will fall back to b or bernhard as the owner and operator of the blog. So you’re not damaging me but him and even causing more problems than he already has…

Posted by: thomas | Mar 18 2014 21:06 utc | 289

Oh, me so impressed.
.org is *not* a German domain. And the registrant, German or not, might in fact just be holding that domain for someone else.
More importantly the server seems to be hosted by a well reputed *non German* provider.
Thirdly, on this very site can be found proof of you acting criminally by e.g. attempting to blackmail someone, namely b.
With a cold smile from the Mr. Pragma computer program 😉

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 18 2014 21:20 utc | 290

@ somebody

[…] The referendum of course was not democratically legit. […]

Yes it was democratic, every bit of it. To give merit to your assertion that it wasn’t you would have to list factors which clearly show that the referendum was not welcomed by most Crimeans and that the population were under duress when they produced a no doubt easily verifiable result showing an overwhelming support for one of the options on the ballot.
The term legit, as in legal, infers there is an internationally accepted law prohibiting an already somewhat autonomous region to secede from its current federation and join its neighboring federation instead. My understanding is this legal constraint doesn’t exist. Especially not if the region does so in reaction to a freely elected federal government having fallen to a murderous putsch organised by foreign agents. If there is a recognised law rendering the Crimean referendum lawless, could you please point it out.

[…] Things will get ugly if the EU does not open borders and coffers soon. Things in the EU will get ugly if they do. […]

Great line.

Posted by: Juan Moment | Mar 18 2014 21:22 utc | 291

> “Mr. Pragma” is a computer program developed by a democracy loving russian (?) info technician
I guess the time I’ve entered this discussion in not the best.
Just curious – why “democracy loving” ? And what it means in the Internet after all. Just can’t identify what it means here. Like he’s using lots of proxy to avoid antidemocratic retribution?

Posted by: Sergey | Mar 18 2014 21:24 utc | 292

Sergey
Nothing. That’s what he says, guessing blindly and attributing weird shit to me.
He tells more about himself than about others.
Example: “right-wing” – a classical tag used by zionists for people who dislike zionists.
Funny, how he blackmailed b some days ago and now tries to blackmail b (and even us) even more overtly and bluntly. Oh well, zionists at work.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 18 2014 21:45 utc | 293

And of course, criticism of Zionism = Holocaust denial.

Posted by: Demian | Mar 18 2014 21:48 utc | 294

lets be frank you don’t like jews. you know fuck all about jewish history or memory. your simplistic construction of the worl like so much shit from the protocoles of zion, disculpates the empire for its deeds, israel is a puppet state exactly like colombia is
you use all the stereotypes, ‘workshy(, international capital’? you are fucking slimy little fuck & to hear such shit when fascism is a real threat everywhere, not least amongst the likudniks
you not only deny the holocaust you deny reality & the contradictions of empire
one soldier from orel is worth a million of your proxies

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 18 2014 21:56 utc | 295

@Mina #263: It’s funny how the Western press reports what the Ukrainian press says about the shooting(s), but not what the Russian press says. Especially since the shootings occurred in an area controlled by Russia.

Posted by: Demian | Mar 18 2014 22:02 utc | 296

295
That’s “facts”? I see …

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 18 2014 22:05 utc | 297

b’s & others call for reflection, analysis, thought, interrogation
your’s don’t, like most anti semites it is a form o eroticism for you
doesn’t bear thinking about & on that levle you supply all the facts that are required
the jews are bheind everything, russia wants to go to war, capitalism has no contradictions, no interelite strugle, no you prefer fantasy
thank christ b supplies the substance, tho i know we have differences – they are differences you can reflect one

Posted by: remembereringgiap | Mar 18 2014 22:13 utc | 298

Nothing of what you say, not one single point, is true.
If that’s your “facts” …

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 18 2014 22:30 utc | 299

Given how furiously Western leaders are reacting to the Russian incorporation of the Crimea, it’s understandable that Putin wanted to get it out of the way.
Soon the US will start destroying another country, and everyone will forget about Crimea.

Posted by: Demian | Mar 18 2014 22:32 utc | 300