Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 17, 2014
Ukraine: Wet Noodle Sanctions And Pressure For Constitutional Reform

As documented yesterday the "leaked" Russian non-paper which demanded constitutional reform in the Ukraine and more autonomy for its regions was at least partially accepted by Secretary of State Kerry:

In a phone call with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, their second since unsuccessful face-to-face talks on Friday in London, Kerry urged Russia "to support efforts by Ukrainians across the spectrum to address power sharing and decentralization through a constitutional reform process that is broadly inclusive and protects the rights of minorities," the State Department said.

That Kerry "urged Russia" is just a silly diversion. The idea of such changes in the Ukrainian constitution clearly came from the Russian side and were already part of the February 21 agreement which the U.S. supported coup government broke.

The Kerry call with Lavrov was followed by one between Putin and Obama. The White House readout of that call also mentions the constitution issue.

[President Obama] noted that the Ukrainian government continues to take concrete steps that would allow for the de-escalation of the crisis, particularly as it prepares for elections this Spring and undertakes constitutional reform, …

Using that acknowledgement of the Russian plan the Kremlin increased the pressure and went public with its demands:

Moscow, meanwhile, called on Ukraine to become a federal state as a way of resolving the polarization between Ukraine's western regions — which favor closer ties with the 28-nation EU — and its eastern areas, which have long ties to Russia.

In a statement Monday, Russia's Foreign Ministry urged Ukraine's parliament to call a constitutional assembly that could draft a new constitution to make the country federal, handing more power to its regions. It also said country should adopt a "neutral political and military status," a demand reflecting Moscow's concern about the prospect of Ukraine joining NATO.

Russia is also pushing for Russian to become Ukraine's state language.

In Kiev, Ukraine's new government dismissed Russia's proposal Monday as unacceptable, saying it "looks like an ultimatum."

The Ukrainian puppet government still has to learn the business. As Kerry and Obama already conceded "constitutional reform" in the Ukraine there will be no way for the puppet government to get around this. It urgently needs money and those who could possibly pay, the IMF, the U.S. and EU, will make their demands heard.

Russia could also easily escalate and help the eastern and southern regions of the Ukraine to create their own state independent of Kiev or the seek, like the Crimea, incorporation into the Russian Federation. The Ukrainian government is right to call the Russian demand an ultimatum. It is exactly that and it will have to submit to it.

But that is not yet understood. The Ukrainian parliament, those now 300+ left from 450 original lawmakers after the others fled under threats of violence, decided to mobilize the Ukrainian military and moved a whooping 12% of its total budget into reestablishing some military force. But the Ukrainian military has been neglected for over 20 years:

“It is absolutely not a combat ready force. It’s sharply underfunded, and they don’t have any real air or surface to air or capacity compared to what Russia can deploy — even though Russia is no paragon of military readiness either,” Anthony Cordesman, of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, told FoxNews.com.

The Ukrainian troops are still mostly conscripts and the professionals are paid only half of the average Ukrainian wage. How loyal this military will be to the coup-government is yet to be seen. I do not expect it to play any significant role.

Meanwhile the U.S. as well as the EU introduced some sanctions on some Russian and Ukrainian individuals though the White House "Fact Sheet" does not even say what those sanctions are:

In response to the Russian government’s actions contributing to the crisis in Ukraine, this new E.O. lists seven Russian government officials who are being designated for sanctions. These individuals are Vladislav Surkov, Sergey Glazyev, Leonid Slutsky, Andrei Klishas, Valentina Matviyenko, Dmitry Rogozin, and Yelena Mizulina.

There seems to be no real idea why (and with what) these individuals would be sanctioned. Does it make sense to sanction people because of their "status"?

  • Valentina Matviyenko: Matviyenko is being sanctioned for her status as Head of the Federation Council
  • Dmitry Rogozin: Rogozin is being sanctioned for his status as the Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation.
  • Yelena Mizulina: Mizulina is being sanctioned for her status as a State Duma Deputy.

The sanctioned Russian people are all officials who are not even allowed to hold foreign assets. What is the U.S. going to do about them?

One paragraph in the "Fact Sheet" is a threat to Russian businessman and oligarchs:

The United States also will seek to hold accountable individuals who use their resources or influence to support or act on behalf of senior Russian government officials. We recognize that the Russian leadership derives significant support from, and takes action through, individuals who do not themselves serve in any official capacity. Our current focus is to identify these individuals and target their personal assets, but not companies that they may manage on behalf of the Russian state.

Whatever. Putin has some 70% of the Russians in favor of him. He does not have to be considerate of this or that oligarch. The Russians are laughing off this wet noodle assault. None of these sanctions will influence their decision making. They will publish a retaliatory list and equally meaningless sanction some U.S. and EU officials and that will be it.

The U.S. now has the unpleasant task to silence the blowhards and fascists in the Ukrainian puppet government and to push them to accept some meaningful constitution creating process. The Russian government will keep all options open in eastern and southern Ukraine until a new acceptable Ukrainian constitution is done and in place. It can for now sit back and amuse itself about the empty blustering coming out of Brussels and Washington DC.

Comments

Well done guest
I only counted 5 lies in your latest 2 posts.
Clearly youre improving.

Posted by: brb | Mar 18 2014 1:03 utc | 101

“except to say that for all your lies and outright slanders against me, you have yet to provide any evidence of any dishonesty on my part,
whereas i could, if i desired, easily supply plenty evidence of blatant dishonesty on your part.”
You little fuck. You changed your name 5 times and have been banned but come back. Every post of yours is a fucking lie and an offense.
And you name yourself “be right back”? You just flaunt that shit in b’s and all of our faces that, no matter how many times you’ve been banned, no matter how many times you’re told to get lost, you’ll just be back with more posts like… well, like all that you’ve made in this thread.
You’re a genuine little prick. The worst of the worst.
And you lie endlessly. And your a fan of these Ukrainian nazis, that you even spout their revisionist history. Which wouldn’t be so bad if you just stuck to that – but no. THIS here is your favorite pastime. Personal attacks and back and forth.
Go choke.

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 18 2014 1:04 utc | 102

brb, guest77
You both seem to at least not hate me. So let me ask you for something: _ STOP _ TIMEOUT _
Give yourselves 15 min. to cool off. If that is boring, read what I just wrote. Please. Pretty please.
Otherwise your speed will increase and finally a vortex will be created and our galaxy will fall into it and hillary clinton will spawn a 1000 times.
Do you want that? No? Though so. Neither do I.
(P.S. Anyone knowing how to create a Giselle Bundchen spawning vortex is more than welcome to contact me. But only suggestions for at least 10 billion spawns, please. Otherwise each of them will chose a more attractive guy and my brilliant plan fails)

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 18 2014 1:12 utc | 103

Nice. I counted one in yours. And another when you said you would “leave it at that”.
You flaunt in b’s and the rest of our faces your bans, even naming yourself “be right back” having previously named yourself “fuck off” and “shut the fuck up”.
Anyway, doesn’t matter. You won’t push good people out of here. You are our toothless little rat fart.
Tico – you’re here what, 5 days, and this banned shitstain accuses you of trying to drive him off?

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 18 2014 1:16 utc | 104

You got it, Mr. P.

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 18 2014 1:16 utc | 105

” THIS here is your favorite pastime. Personal attacks and back and forth”
Says the individual that just posted 3 comments in quick succession, totalling several hundred words, and every sentence a personal attack?
I doubt you’d even know what to do with a mirror if someone gave you one.
(Probably smash it to pieces imo 😉

Posted by: brb | Mar 18 2014 1:16 utc | 106

104
Finally!

Posted by: brb | Mar 18 2014 1:19 utc | 107

I come here mainly for Mr. P’s point of view, and ignore the churn.

Posted by: Cu Chulainn | Mar 18 2014 1:34 utc | 108

Steve Horn of DeSmogBlog highlights a verry interesting business relationship that more than likely won’t get sanctioned: http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-exxonmobil-russia-rosneft-partnership-vs-obamas-sanctions-regime-against-russia/5373884

Posted by: Nora | Mar 18 2014 1:55 utc | 109

@88
Charlie Manson ALSO didn’t do as many drugs as the doped up minions that HE encouraged just a hop skip and slaughter away from Zappa’s Laurel Canyon in Topanga Canyon. And it was all at the same exact time. Serial killers and the beginnings of the hippie movement, satanists, LSD, and people from families in US intelligence agencies all in a few square miles of one another, yeah, good ole uncle Frank was pure as the driven snow. GMAFB

And as a matter of fact, a Southern secessionist movement would be most valuable
in reducing the power of the Zio-capitalist Empire, but even if you can’t see that, no excuse for anti-Southern bigotry here.

I get it so we should encourage racists and those who want apartheid right? We should let them do what they want, right? Give them every bit of racist land there little hearts desire? And you’re anti-Zionist? Tell me another one.
Awwwwh, anti-Southern bigotry!!!That’s really adorable. Let’s not talk about what it’s like to be a minority – anywhere in the US, really – but especially in that part of the country, shall we? Anti-southern fucking bigotry?!!!In a place that 50 years ago they still LEGALISTICALLY thought black people were a subhuman species and today lock them up by the thousands in prisons and ghettos faster than you can say KKK, you’re gonna turn around and claim bigotry? Holy shit.
I just love how the South – after causing 4 centuries of slavery, a fucking massive and bloody civil, Jim Crow laws, the KKK, the separation of races and on and on to this day – thinks that since they NOMINALLY – nudge, wink – stopped doing that terrible shit like DECADES AGO they can still carry on their virulent aboveboard racism, still cling to secessionist symbols that celebrate and honor said slavery and racist practices and the rest of us just have to play f*cking stupid and blind and pretend there’s nothing wrong with it because why it was just AGES AGO!
And again we’re supposed to believe that you’re an anti-Zionist when you use the same victimhood tactics to talk about a group of states that proudly waves their traitorous flags all over the country, huh? Why, I bet you get REAL pissed about dual citizenship Israeli/Americans, huh? I bet it just burns your griddlecakes something good when you see a Star of David flag, huh? Well, what about the Star and Bars? Think that we should encourage that? What’s the difference between the South and Israel, huh?
One is a group of racists that wants to overtly practice discrimination and apartheid while ethnically cleansing “their” land of undesirables, the other is a group of racists that wants to overtly practice discrimination and apartheid while ethnically cleansing “their” land of undesirables.
Man, you’re right! It’s like night and f*cking day!!Note: I didn’t want to say black and white to further offend any other lurking southerners.
Well, you see, JBigotine, an apartheid genocidal state in the southern US would be good because well erm uh derp it would stop the apartheid genocidal state of Israel and its bitch the US or something like that because see if there were TWO (or THREE since the old US wouldn’t be going non-Zionist overnight either) nuclear-armed states that were radical insane Zionists then it would sort of cancel or something…wait a second…this idea sucks!
Umm, doya think that maybe the crazy Zionist southern f*ckers in their new apartheid state – oh I don’t know – would just start attacking the States – on Israel’s orders – they just seceded from or do you think that the have a brake on their crazy train?
I shouldn’t bring up problems in the South – and I know they’re everywhere in the US, believe me but thomas was gloating about AL – because if we just let the racist minority that rules it do what it wants the world would probably end up being a better place in the end. And, again, you’re anti-Zionist.
All we are saying is give racism a chance.
(Psssst. Here’s a little secret. If you think Zionist propaganda is rampant in the US, then what is one to make of the pro-Southern propaganda – Duck Dynasty, NASCAR et al ad nauseum – that’s been ruling the American airwaves for at least as long? Could it be connected? Could it be that we’re been brainwashed to not only emulate Zionists but southern living as well? Why would TPTB want that? I know and it’s YOUR homework.Back to our regularly scheduled program.)

Posted by: JSorrentine | Mar 18 2014 2:18 utc | 110

@108 Merkel has a similar problem with Daimler, BMW, Volkswagen, BASF and quite a few other companies.

Posted by: dh | Mar 18 2014 2:21 utc | 111

Such a relentless fucker, and so full of it. You really ought to apply for a job in the US State Department.
It would be nice if you could come up with your own insults instead of just recycling the ones I’ve used on you ages ago.
Sorry Mr. P. I’m not sure why you like this prick. It really is all about these personal attacks.

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 18 2014 2:22 utc | 112

I found your Shcherbytsky quote where you claimed he said the “famine was a genocide”. He, of course, said no such thing. You are demonstrably a liar. Which, considering, really isn’t even your worst quality I have to say.
In fact he said the Soviet Government did all they could to help the Ukrainian people, and that Russia is lied about endlessly.

“In addition, there was an unforseen drought,” Mr. Shcherbytsky said. “All this caused serious food problems at the end of 1932 and the beginning of 1933, and in a number of rural areas, even famine.”
However, Mr. Shcherbytsky stated, “The Soviet government did everything possible to help the population of Ukraine, the Don, Kuban, Volga and Kazakhstan who suffered as a result or this evil.”
“Soviet Ukraine,” he said, “is constantly the subject of imperialistic propaganda” – the work of “Western intelligence agencies, their servants – Ukrainians living abroad, and Zionist nationalist centers.”

“Western intelligence agencies, their servants…and Zionists” fits brb to a “T” I think.

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 18 2014 2:26 utc | 113

guest77
preserve your energy
this particular form of the sam poster, is a fascist, i can smell his stupidity like a rock around his neck, he knows nothing, he is nothing. really don’t waste your time on such shadows

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 18 2014 2:35 utc | 114

Petri at 86: Agree with it all except the fate of Tymoshenko. Her end story will not be so gentle. Everyone seems to hate her especially her allies.
But, on the other hand, incompetent bullying and out-of-control anger and instability … yeah, she may find a throne in little Rumpistan.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 18 2014 2:37 utc | 115

Sanctions might not (probably won’t) be effective directly against Russia. What about the possibility of using them to threaten EU? As in “You better tow our line, or we’ll sanction Gazprom and you can all eat ice cubes for Christmas!”

Posted by: Dr. Wellington Yueh | Mar 18 2014 2:38 utc | 116

Check out Club Orlov, good summary of tweets from Spanish Air Traffic Controller in Kiev.
Apparently in Ukraine (not speaking of Crimea)
– 70% of military has gone to Russia
– Arms/equipment being shipped into Urkaine designated for the new National Guard is being confiscated by Army and Police
– EU has asked that National Guard not be created
– Majority don’t care about Crimea at all
– Chief of Ukraine Airforce has grounded all planes, refused orders, will follow only HIS OWN orders until new government is elected
– People in general do not wish to fight Russia and die for CIA-government
If you read Spanish it’s a must twitter feed
https://twitter.com/spainbuca
And ClubOrlov
http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2014/03/is-anyone-really-in-control-in-ukraine.html#more

Posted by: Kim Sky | Mar 18 2014 2:49 utc | 117

It is telling that the US sees their one pressure point in this situation Russia’s wealthy class. 99% of the time, the US can rely on an extremely wealthy class that has no sense of country or patriotism when they need to go after a country. This class is the real “fifth column” of the imperialists.
This traitor class emerged as the Soviet Union tottered, and the US used them to completely dismantle the country. And it is this class whom certainly – unless Putin keeps them in their place – the US will turn to realize their dream of dismantling Russia.
This is the class that western NGOs (such as Soros’ and Omidyar’s) seek to build up for use later. In every third world capital – from Caracas to Bangkok and beyond. You will find this little gang, built on bribes and dining at the US embassy. They’re secure in their position of economic royalty, educated in Western Universities, and are eager at the first ask to give up their whole nation.
It is exactly the class that both sides fostered in Ukraine which brought us to this moment. Any country that leaves them unfettered does so at its own peril.

@r’giap You’re right of course. It just irritates me to no end. He’s been at it forever.

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 18 2014 2:56 utc | 118

@103 guest77
Something like that. I have yet to contribute very much and look forward sharing what I can, but admire greatly the posts of both you and Mr. Pragma. I only have had one or two exchanges with Mr. Pragma so far, and his replies were correct and polite. I know from reading MOA for several years that he doesn’t suffer fools lightly, which is as it should be.
I’ve had a certain amount of experience with other blogs that encourage non-MSM views (i.e. the truth), and value them highly. Unfortunately, trolls are a constant problem and their goals are ALWAYS designed to disrupt the flow of ideas, whatever their personal philosophies may be.
Far be it for me to advise you on anything, but in my experience once these people find a victim who responds to their taunts, the thread is effectively hijacked, at least for some time. When enough of these trolls co-ordinate their efforts, good and valuable posters like Mr. Pragma, who despite his great intelligence all too often lowers himself to attack them, and that would be a great loss to this blog.
Obviously, b will take whatever actions he feels appropriate. For the rest of us, it’s hard to maintain silence and ignore these types, but that is the only way to proceed, other than to try and support non-trolls and help ensure the vitality of MOA.

Posted by: TicoTiger | Mar 18 2014 3:01 utc | 119

Kim Sky # 16: Now that is good news indeed! And it sounds very much like a commenter from Kiev over at the Saker, who, btw, referred to Obama’s Ukrainian gambit as a “tectonic face-plant”. Better than that One. Cannot. Do.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 18 2014 3:09 utc | 120

117: Well said! That class always acts like English is a sign of superiority, having long ago turned their backs on their mother tongues and making sure their kids get all-English schooling. A sure sign of a denationalized servant of the US empire.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 18 2014 3:12 utc | 121

Any one can see that that pathetic liar at 112 gives no link to his copypasta quote
Why not?
One might wonder indeed why he would go to the bother of hunting down the quote and the refuse to link to the source.
One might wonder at the need for such underhanded tactics Until that is, one sees the headline it was posted under, which read Shcherbytsky says famine was a result of collectivization of Soviet agriculture
But of course the liar did not provide a link, even though he went to the bother of hunting down.
Now why would he leave out the link when he went to all the trouble of hunting it down in the first place?
Like the liar he is he’ll probably try to claim that he just forgot but the far more likely reason is because then others might read the rest of the document, which paints a slightly different picture than the one dishonest guest77 is portraying.
And he certainly did not want anyone reading the headline Shcherbytsky says famine was a result of collectivization of Soviet agriculture
Unlike the liar, i do not need to invent lies about him to discredit him, just quoting his words and highlighting his lies is more than enough to show blatant dishonesty
He discredits himself every time he post comments full of lies

Posted by: brb | Mar 18 2014 3:19 utc | 122

#117, 120: You know, those observations put me in mind of Jimmy Carter, a simple peanut farmer, getting his head turned by Laurence Rockefeller, or Bill Clinton, a good old boy who’s since made a fortune hobnobbing with the global elites he helped empower, or Barack Obama, who if he hasn’t already, sure will as soon as he leaves office. Carter I do think was a profoundly decent man; the other two, not so much.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 18 2014 3:24 utc | 123

brb is a nuisance without doubt. It was clear the day it arrived that his only goal was to stir sh** so it was easy to simply ignore and skip. Guest77, it had not occurred to me that he was taunting b with berightback so maybe that explains why he has not been banned. Another thing I noticed, though an obvious troll without any obvious points, he has tried to ingratiate himself to some of the other commentators here by attaching himself to Mr P.
Mr P is certainly not a troll but it very difficult to know what he wants to say. Often paragraphs in his interminable essays sound quite reasonable but it is very difficult extract what the bigger message might be or if he even has a bigger message. I decided to simply skip his posts but that changed when he objected to some things I had written and then after I replied he simply dropped it without any more followup. My summary of Mr P is that he is an intellectual chameleon who senses what others are saying and adjusts his colors to blend in. That makes him target for a real troll like brb.

Posted by: ToivoS | Mar 18 2014 3:27 utc | 124

From Penny’s site:
brianMarch 17, 2014 at 7:37 AM
Putin’s 2-move checkmate in Crimea!
BY MARCUS BROOKS on MARCH 16, 2014 • ( 3 )
mb
By Marcus Brooks
According to an article published in privetsochi.ru Putin has brilliantly out smarted the US and Europeans in a couple of days and has earned Russia more than 20 billion dollars and has also managed to get an extra 30% stake within the lucrative Russian energy sector.
20140117_hus_0This is a story that the three monkeys at the BBC, CNN and Fox News will never tell you folks.
Yes Sir! Putin has financially screwed EU and America. In the eyes of the entire world he played this geo-political game without a hitch.
You see, some shares of Russian energy companies up until recently used to be owned by foreign investors predominantly Americans and Europeans, that’s before Putin gave the order to buy shares of these companies at their lowest. So in layman terms this now means that almost half of the revenues from the oil and gas industry will go into the coffers of Russia, and not into the accounts of “financial sharks” of Europe.
The story begins
This story starts with the current situation in Crimea, when the ruble started to fall sharply, and the Russian central bank did absolutely nothing to support it, of course rumours started that Russia simply did not have a reserve currency to maintain the ruble. These rumours along with Putin’s statement that he was ready and would protect the Russian-speaking population of Ukraine led to a large drop in the share price of energy companies in Russia, as expected the “financial sharks” began to sell their shares. And sure enough the great strategist Putin waited all week and just smiled at the various press conferences (trying not to give away his plan I bet) and when the price fell below the plinth he then ordered his officials into buying shares at rock bottom prices. Of course by the time the European and American investors realised that they had been duped it was too late, the stocks were already in the hands of the Russians. This brilliant operation has to be the first in stock market history PUTIN BRAVO!
Conclusion
So I reckon the euro will fall by 30% and the price of petrol and diesel will rise, and you can bet that the City of London will not support sanctions against Russia, because if they do, our European economies will feel the full brunt of the angry Russian bear! I don’t suppose the Yanks will bail out the E.U?
http://newswire-24.com/2014/03/16/putins-2-move-checkmate-in-crimea/

Posted by: nek | Mar 18 2014 3:27 utc | 125

 Shcherbytsky quote where you claimed he said the “famine was a genocide”.
Placing the phrase “famine was a genocide” in such a fashion gives the completely dishonest impression that i have at some point quoted Scherbytsky as saying exactly the words “famine was a genocide”
Please quote, with link, exactly where you allege i have done so, you lying little turd
You won’t because you can’t
It is your m.o. to misquote, misrepresent, and outright lie when all else fails
As you have just demonstrated for the umpteenth time in the last few days, you have no hesitation about outright lying.
You truely are a man of zero integrity, and even less intelligence.

Posted by: brb | Mar 18 2014 3:28 utc | 126

Such a relentless fucker, and so full of it.
When it comes to lying theres no one more relentless than you, as you demonstrate so often
You really ought to apply for a job in the US State Department.
And you should apply for Mark Regev’s job.
How long did your no trolling jag last?
1 hr 3 mins at most
Well done, king o’ the lying trolls guest77

Posted by: brb | Mar 18 2014 3:35 utc | 127

Just wondering if there are any set of circumstances in which the liar guest77 would NOT misquote, misrepresent or outright lie in order to win an argument by foul means when he cannot win by fair?
So far i’ve not seen the liar hesitate for long (1 hr and 3 mins is the linest so far) before he launches a broadside of innuendo, misquotation, and outright fabrication when he cannot prevail by being truthful.

Posted by: brb | Mar 18 2014 3:57 utc | 128

Linest=longest

Posted by: brb | Mar 18 2014 3:58 utc | 129

#90
Whoa whoa whoa are you really calling the Ukrainian right wing trotskyist?
Theres other problems with this comment. Firstly, although the Strasserites were anti-capitalist, they were also anticommunist, or at least anti-soviet.
As for the Ukrainian right wing… they like Hitler salutes. They like Wolfsangels. They like Swastikas. They may be slavs, which makes them being nazis not make any sense, but at least it makes sense than the Mongolian nazi party (Yes, they have one.) As the Mongolian nazis prove, you CAN be a nazi even if youre not aryan, although it doesnt make a damn stick of sense.
Anyone who likes swastikas, wolfsangels, and Stepan Bandera, is a nazi.
Anyway read up on west ukrainian collaborators to the Nazis, like Stepan Bandera, and you may understand the Nazi-Ukraine link much better.

Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 18 2014 4:27 utc | 130

@124 – nek. thanks. interesting theory. i do think those kinds of games get played.
thought for our host b – if you could put the posters name on the top of the post, as opposed to on the bottom , it would save many of us needless reading..

Posted by: james | Mar 18 2014 5:05 utc | 131

Been inactive as a poster for some time but day in day out been reading MoA for a few years. I felt obligated to post since ‘brb’ is very reflective of a troll from the past; and going bavk over one year.
In that anyone, more so guest77 can you recall ‘yeahbut’ or the likes, ‘it’ or i feel ‘she’ is the very same imp…

Posted by: kjs | Mar 18 2014 5:48 utc | 132

When looking at MoA’s archives, listed on the left of the homepage, one will notice that b closed the bar in July 2009 and only reopened the place in Dec 2010. Anybody who has been frequenting this waterhole that long might remember that the reason he did so was because the comments section started to resemble more and more a kindergarden, with some posters continuously leveling infantile and baseless accusations at others and by doing so dragging the whole place into the absurd.
For the community of regulars who have been hanging out here since the early days, this was heart breaking. It would be an absolute pity if b would be forced to make again a similar decision. So if I may be so bold, I suggest we ought to keep things civil and only hit above the belt.
It is possible to disagree on issues without calling each other liars, retards, scum, rats, whores etc, at least not persistently and across almost every new thread that’s being started. Not only is it not adding any substance to the discourse, it is most likely holding back people from commenting as they are not interested in joining fight club but came for a friendly atmosphere where one can exchange opinions without the risk of being verbally abused.
It is sad that over the years we have lost many intelligent voices, some of them I miss to this day. Luckily for us new ones have joined and it would be a damned shame if those would stop sharing their thoughts because a couple of visitors can’t resist their aggressive urges.

Posted by: Juan Moment | Mar 18 2014 6:07 utc | 133

Juan @131: Agree completely. I advise watching five minutes of the ‘discourse of ridicule’ on a FOX or MSNBC hate show and then promising yourself never to bring any of that style to MoA.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 18 2014 6:25 utc | 134

I think it’s daft to suggest that the terms of the winning referendum item can be re-interpreted to mean something that it clearly does not say. For those who missed it, 96.77% of voters “said ‘yes’ to the reunion of the republic with Russia as a constituent unit of the Russian Federation”. By what sleight-of-hand can you read that as a vote for independent statehood? You can’t, and to suggest otherwise implies that a massive deception is being perpetrated.
President Putin will respond favorably or not to Crimea’s request. Do you want to bet what his response will be? Tune in Tuesday at 3 PM Moscow time:
“Russian President Vladimir Putin on Tuesday will make a statement following requests from the Republic Crimea and the city of Sevastopol for admission to the Russian Federation. According to the presidential press-service, the members of the State Duma and the Federation Council of the Federal Assembly, heads of Russia’s constituent regions and civil society representatives have been invited to the Kremlin for the ceremony by 15:00 Moscow time.”
Don’t underestimate Putin. History will win out over statecraft, and in that ceremony, the Russian nation will be touched to its core.

Posted by: pegasus | Mar 18 2014 7:17 utc | 135

#131 – thank you for your comment, it is appreciated. It appears MOA has become a clubhouse for several dark players. Shame if Whiskey Bar closed again.

Posted by: Nick Danger | Mar 18 2014 7:19 utc | 136

Note that when asked to stop slandering, lying and trolling by Mr Pragma earlier, guest77 lasted a full 1 hr and 3 mins before he could no longer hold back the sea of hatred welling up inside of him.
And though asked many to provide some evidence for any of his accusations he has yet to provide any at all (because he cannot provide in-context quotes with links for if he were to do so others would see that he is in fact lying)
He makes some of the moronic accusations ever made by any human anywhere (except maybe in Orwell’s 1984, or some Stalinist Show Trail of the 30’s) such as declaring that I displayed insufficient hatred for the nearly decade-old corpse of Ariel Sharon.
Being accused of displaying insufficient hatred for a long-dead corpse, artificially kept alive by machines, by someone that behaves like the Official MOA Commissar of Hatred is imo the height of lunacy even for an individual as clearly deranged as he is.
I stopped hating the corpse of Ariel Sharon shortly after it became clear he was at best a brain dead vegetable just as I stopped hating Maggie Thatcher corpse about 24hrs after she kicked the bucket. Clearly, not being willing to sustain Guest77-like decade-long hatred for human-vegetables makes one a very bad boy indeed in the eyes of our little Commissar of Hatred, Mr Guest77.
Orwell’s 2 min hate was a fictional event, and I suspect even Orwell could not in his wildest nightmares have conjured up a character as deranged and hate-filled as our own Commissar of Hatred Mr Guest77 – it’s a well-worn cliche by now but Guest77 seems to have read Orwell’s description of the 2min Hate as some sort of instruction manual
Here’s another bizarre example of the man completely gone off the deep end of hate-driven lunacy :”It would be nice if you could come up with your own insults instead of just recycling the ones I’ve used on you ages ago.”
Seriously, W.T.F. sort of drugs has this loon taken lately?
Last week I was again quite bizarrely accused by this Commissar of Hatred of not being sufficiently disparaging of Israel and Neo-Nazis. This despite having posted plenty of comments referencing, disparagingly, the Neo-Nazi Coup and also the Israeli Military presence in Maidan.
Any accusations I have made against this blatant liar can be backed up – and that is why I call him a liar, because I can quite easily demonstrate that he is one. Whereas almost none of his frankly bizarre rants contain anything other than blatant lies for which he can provide no in-context quote with links
I’d happily stop interacting with such a dishonest individual, provided he stops lying, but when asked by a 3rd party to cease with the nonsense and derangement, he lasted a mere 1hr 3mins

Posted by: brb | Mar 18 2014 7:34 utc | 137

#135 oh boy brb has gone over the top this time. time to change your handle brb? It must be sad to lurk in the shadows and watch all of us engage in in discussion and all you can do is lurk behind the scenes. I feel for you brb, must be so lonely. No friends, everyone hates you.

Posted by: ToivoS | Mar 18 2014 7:49 utc | 138

Seems I was a little bit unfair to the Commissar of Hatred – he actually lasted a whopping 1 hr and 7 mins before the strain of not lying,slandering and not generally behaving like a deranged loon became too much for him to bear

Posted by: brb | Mar 18 2014 7:54 utc | 139

Exactly 60 years ago, the then Secretary General of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union Nikita Sergeevich Khruschyov, with a stroke of a pen, literally, removed the Crimean republic from the Russian Federation and passed it into the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic.
Nobody asked the people of Crimea how they felt about it, nobody consulted them, it was done over their heads, as I said, with a stroke of the dictatorial Communist pen. And nowadays, when these people are finally able to exercise their democratic rights, to self-determination – lo and behold! – all over the Western world there are howls that it is illegitimate.
And it is, indeed, literally ironic that Obama, and Kerry, and Merkel, and Cameron appear to be the guardians of the legacy of Khruschyov while Putin and the Russian lawmakers are the guardians of liberty and the right for self-determination
Read more: http://voiceofrussia.com/2014_03_18/US-and-EU-playing-chicken-with-Russia-as-serious-sanctions-will-hurt-West-as-well-expert-2434/

Posted by: brian | Mar 18 2014 7:55 utc | 140

Toiboi, you’re a nothing but a 2nd rate troll, jumping on the commissars bandwaggon. You’re so unimaginative you can’t even conjure up a bandwaggon of your own
At least Commissar Guest has imagination, I’ll say that much for him. You on the other hand are merely an inconsequential snivelling weasel

Posted by: brb | Mar 18 2014 7:58 utc | 141

The new sanctions against Russia, however useless they may be, must serve as a wake up call to Chinese, Indian and other nation’s Oligarchs who put their monies/assets in Western banks and institutions. They better find alternatives fast..
The sanction lists I’ve seen are so useless that I don’t think Russia will respond to it…

Posted by: Zico | Mar 18 2014 8:15 utc | 142

YES autocrats do fear the people:
When voters in both France and the Netherlands rejected the EU Constitution in 2005, instead of accepting the outcome, the European Union simply re-named the Constitution and re-introduced it as the Lisbon Treaty, forcing Europeans to vote once again.
Even when Irish voters rejected the Lisbon Treaty in 2008, the EU simply changed the rules which mandated that the treaty could only be passed with a unanimous vote from all member states and passed it anyway, flying in the face of any notion of democracy.
In brazenly declaring that the EU would ignore referendums, Giscard d’Estaing even went on record to admit that the Lisbon Treaty “had been carefully crafted to confuse the public.”
http://rinf.com/alt-news/business-news/eus-stunning-hypocrisy-crimea/

Posted by: brian | Mar 18 2014 8:29 utc | 143

treachery Kasparov style
Garry Kasparov ‏@Kasparov63 10h
You want a strong sanctions list? Go to Forbes! Go down the list of Russian billionaires who support Putin & loot the treasury & hit them.

Posted by: brian | Mar 18 2014 8:39 utc | 144

Kremlin: If the U.S. Tries to Hurt Russia’s Economy, Russia Will Target the Dollar
The Daily Sheeple
http://www.TheDailySheeple.com
March 17th, 2014
Reader Views: 1,871
124 17 170
chess game currencies
Editors Note: It has been announced this morning that the US government is stepping up sanctions against Russia in light of the Crimea vote. Obama is on record as saying that the vote:
‘Will never be recognized by Washington” (source)
By introducing visa bans and freezing Russian assets Washington is raising the bar into dangerous tit-for-tat territory, and the outcome is anything but settled on where that will lead. This makes the following article from Testosterone Pit even more pertinent.
From Testosterone Pit:
Another warning shot was fired before an all-out assault on the dollar system begins. This time, an official shot: Alexey Ulyukaev, Russia’s Minister of Economic Development and former Deputy Chairman of the Central Bank, fired it. It was a major escalation, Valentin Mândrăşescu, editor of The Voice of Russia’s Reality Check, told me from Moscow.
Last time, it was Sergei Glazyev, an advisor to Vladimir Putin who’d fired the shot. But he wasn’t a government official. “Anonymous sources” at the Kremlin claimed he wasn’t speaking for the government. As Mândrăşescu reported in his excellent article, From Now On, No Compromises Are Possible For Russia:
From the economic point of view, everyone should get ready for tough actions from Moscow. Sergei Glazyev, the most hardline of Putin’s advisors, sketched the retaliation strategy: Drop the dollar, sell US Treasuries, encourage Russian companies to default on their dollar-denominated debts, and create an alternative currency system (reference currency) with the BRICS and hydrocarbon producers like Venezuela and Iran.
Unlike radical-sounding Glazyev, Ulyukaev is part of Dmitry Medvedev’s Cabinet. And as former Deputy Chairman of the Bank of Russia, he doesn’t take currencies lightly. He told Rossia-24 news channel about possible retaliatory measures if Washington adds economic sanctions to the political sanctions. Moscow wouldn’t worry too much about political sanctions, he said, but if Washington tries to hurt Russia’s economy, Moscow would retaliate by targeting the US dollar.
Some of it is already happening
Washington’s decision to release a minuscule 5 million barrels of oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve caused the price of oil to tank – a direct attack on the main revenue source of the Russian government, and a sign that Washington is willing to hit where it hurts the most [read a trader’s lament…. Commodity Markets Will Be Used As A Weapon Against The Putin Regime, Starting Now].
Russia instantly retaliated, it seems. Suddenly, there was a mysterious mega-plunge of $104.5 billion in US Treasuries held in custody by the Federal Reserve during the reporting week ended March 12. It brought the balance down to $2.86 trillion. These securities are owned by foreign countries. As of the US Treasury’s December statement, the most recent available, the Fed held $138.6 billion in Treasuries that belonged to Russia – down by $22.9 billion from a year earlier. The mega-plunge of $104.5 billion? No data is available yet to confirm these securities belonged to Russia. And if they did, it’s unlikely that Russia dumped them on the market, but it could have transferred them to another banking center, such as Luxemburg, to get them out of reach of the US government, and be able to dump them at an opportune moment.
Getting out from under the dollar
Russia has been palavering with other countries about initiating alternatives to the dollar. Formal plans emerged from the Kremlin last May on how Russia wanted the BRICS to dismantle the dollar system. So now it was Ulyukaev, an official heavy-weight, who said that Russia would work on increasing the volume of international trade denominated in national currencies, thus bypassing the dollar (translation by Mândrăşescu):
“Why should we have dollar contracts with China, India, Turkey?” he said. “Why do we need this? We must have contracts in national currencies. And this applies to energy and other spheres.” The focus would be on Russian oil and gas companies. “They must be braver in signing contracts in rubles and the currencies of partner-countries,” he said. “I think now there is an additional impetus to finally finish this job.”
And the “currency reserve policy” would need some adjustment with maximum focus on “local currencies”; it was the normal way, he said. In Mândrăşescu’s analysis, Ulyukaev was outlining an attack on the petrodollar system and the enormous advantages it confers on the US, with the goal of creating parallel petro-currencies.
Media blackout in the US
The warning, issued officially and publicly by a Cabinet member, to target the dollar, has been vigorously ignored by the mainstream media in the US. It’s a touchy subject here. The dollar reigns supreme. Its status as the sole world reserve currency, which has provided the US with enormous economic advantages, remains unquestionable forevermore. Or so wishes the Fed, which has done such a wonderful job of managing the dollar for the last 100 years that it has lost most of its value, though it’s still a heck of a lot better than the ruble.
“I have a suspicion the Western media don’t want to report on this,” Mândrăşescu said. “It could be a bit unpleasant for the S&P 500 and the nanobots trading the US stock market.” Better keep them in the dark.
It took a while. But it had to come, the public warning shot – after some ferocious lobbying behind closed doors. No one in Germany is allowed to get in the way of the sacrosanct exporters. Read…. German Exporters Fire Warning Shot About Russia “Sanction-Spiral,” Banks At Risk
– See more at: http://www.thedailysheeple.com/kremlin-if-the-u-s-tries-to-hurt-russias-economy-russia-will-target-the-dollar_032014#sthash.oPsCBM6V.dpuf

Posted by: brian | Mar 18 2014 8:44 utc | 145

The fun is that the EU’s list is different from Russia’s. And the reasons/criteria are not clear at all.
I suspect they picked the ones who do not have Western bank accounts. It is ridiculous.
It does spread insecurity in business relations though. They interviewed a German company working in Russia in radio here, Ukrainian employees working in Russia might get drafted, visas revoked, stuff like that. The whole thing makes an agreement with Iran unlikely, any deal on Syria …
It is questionable if the The Kiew “government” is in control at all.
The East of Ukraine seems to have been handed over to the oligarchs. And they are the ones with business ties to Russia at the same time anxious not to be taken over by Russia.
So presumably, there will be a federal solution in Ukraine. And the EU will be tasked with integrating West Ukrainian fascists. As proposed by Putin.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 18 2014 8:46 utc | 146

There’s some news out of Moscow this morning that Russia intends to take Crimea into the Russian Federation. If so, Putin will have created ‘facts on the ground’ that will be uncontestable by the West. Then the score will be Russia 2+, West 0. I expect Russia to fully accept Crimea into the Federation, can’t wait to hear his speech. Expect that speech to make clear that Russia holds Aces as hole-cards.

Posted by: okie farmer | Mar 18 2014 8:48 utc | 147

Javier Flores ‏@_JavierFlores_ 1h
Putin speaks on Crimea’s secession: The Russian president will make a speech at 11:00a.m. GMT

Posted by: brian | Mar 18 2014 8:58 utc | 148

The Crimea situation reminds me of when my Wife wants to buy something I balk at-
In that scenario I have two clear choices, I can give in and not challenge her buying it.
I can argue, make my life miserable, and watch her buy that, and more.
In this case, energy is “marital relations”, and the EU can’t be cut off. The West simply has no cards to play. So walk away.

Posted by: Todd Bennett | Mar 18 2014 8:58 utc | 149

a Putin speech could topple the US
U.S. #oil #futures fluctuate ahead of Putin speech, supply data – http://bit.ly/1kZphqq

Posted by: brian | Mar 18 2014 9:10 utc | 150

Brian I can’t figure out if people like you are nutcases, or if American, outright traitors. Either way I am very impatient, and quite intolerant of anti-USD propaganda. Besides the fact you people are basically morons. No one country, or ten countries, could topple the U.S. dollar, because of a concept called portfolio balance. There is no currency in the world that can readily compete to balance assets within the next decade, much less week, so there is nowhere for the money to go, unless all of the westernized nations agreed to drink economic cyanide all at once. And I don’t put that down for your benefit, but for otherwise reasonable people who would read your tripe and not know better.

Posted by: Todd Bennett | Mar 18 2014 9:19 utc | 151

from Bloomberg:
Putin Orders Approval of Accord on Crimea Accession to Russia
By Olga Tanas Mar 18, 2014 8:09 AM GMT+0100 5 Comments
President Vladimir Putin said he supported a request from Ukraine’s breakaway region of Crimea to join Russia after recognizing the Black Sea peninsula as an independent state.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-18/putin-orders-approval-of-accord-on-crimea-accession-to-russia.html

Posted by: okie farmer | Mar 18 2014 9:21 utc | 152

Best line so far: “What should Russia be making money from, mortgage foreclosures?”

The War Nerd: Everything you know about Crimea is wrong(-er)
But the truth has rights, and the truth is that Putin has won in Crimea. Better to admit that than to shout insults at the victor, especially when your insults don’t even make sense. McCain says Russia makes its money off oil and gas; true, but so what? Is there a better product to be selling on the world market? What should Russia be making money from, mortgage foreclosures? Oil and gas seem like a relatively honest way to make money. At any rate, I never heard an American politician shout this kind of insult at our beloved ally, Saudi Arabia, even though everything McCain said about Russia goes double—triple, quintuple—for that place.”

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 18 2014 9:23 utc | 153

Probable scenario, though no proof of-
Obama: We can only agree to this nonpaper after we deliver sanctions, you know that right?
Putin: Of course, you have to make sure you keep the trust of Kiev and the EU.
Obama: It has to look like you got your Crimea, but turned reasonable on the rest of Ukraine.
Putin: You give us Crimea, throw out some decorative sanctions, then after some afterglow we can announce a move forward on Federalization.
Obama: Sounds good, but you need to pull back troops just a tad to calm the markets.
Putin: Fair enough.
Now why is this plausible? http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_03_04/Russia-does-not-consider-joining-Crimea-to-Russia-Putin-0597/
Also this accession, is more just an attachment of Crimea to the Federation, notice how they still call it an autonomous state. Think Puerto Rico, not Sudetenland. The question is, why is western media reporting the exact opposite of the truth, repeatedly, and with a pernicious mendacity?

The tense situation in Crimea, in which the use of the armed forces was possible, is gone, Russian President Vladimir Putin said. “The tense situation in Crimea with the possible use of the armed forces has simply expired. There was no such need,” Putin told reporters in Novo-Ogaryovo on Tuesday.
Read more: http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_03_04/Russia-does-not-consider-joining-Crimea-to-Russia-Putin-0597/

Those are his own words, try to find them on CNN. I dare you. We can say he is lying, or manipulating, but his own words should at least be accessible by Americans through so called reputable media outlets. Personally the ratings hungry media concern me as mush if not more than Putin. You know the ruse, when in need of a story, make one.

Posted by: Todd Bennett | Mar 18 2014 9:31 utc | 154

It is almost sad. Poor brb, he seeks acceptance. But it is not coming. Wherever he goes all he encounters is rejection if not out right hatred. I have friends in this life (even some loving attachments) but it must be awful to live in brd’s shoes and just encounter rejection. I hope you can find love somewhere.

Posted by: ToivoS | Mar 18 2014 9:35 utc | 155

Posted by: Todd Bennett | Mar 18, 2014 5:31:51 AM | 152
Something got lost in translation. Annexation would mean “move troups in”. Russia was careful to use – whom? – in non-Russian-uniforms.
The referendum of course was not democratically legit. Have a look at the questions asked.
They took no risk the result would be less than a close to absolute “yes”. It makes sense for Crimeans to join Russia but not for close to 100 percent of them.
And there were these strange guys in non-Russian-uniforms standing around.
The funny thing is noone in Western media insists on getting Crimea back. They are just interested in painting Russia as the bad guy.
Of course the Kiev putsch government is not democratically legitimate. Noone in Western media talks about that. Parubiy now gets interviewed without explaining that he gave the order to attack and shoot Ukrainian police.
The interesting part are those gas pipelines and the East Ukrainian industries. NATO seems out – that would be the end to the “partnership”.
A new European Russian policy with security guarantees is bady needed but noone seems to be up to it.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 18 2014 10:04 utc | 156

It appears Yats has caved-
“Russian will be the official language in your provinces”
Ukraine’s PM @Yatsenyuk_AP addresses East/South in Russian
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GedblzwJXLs&feature=youtu.be
Joining NATO isn’t on our agenda, I also oppose banning ex-ruling @PartyofRegions -@Yatsenyuk_AP 2 East/South Ukraine pic.twitter.com/mKaAsRfHge
View photo
Courtesy @MaximEristavi
Analysis? Some deals are not really announced, the most fanfare de-escalation we will get will likely be the UN Security Council Resolution acknowledging the rest of Ukraine and the “Support Group.”

Posted by: Todd Bennett | Mar 18 2014 10:11 utc | 157

Just some small side notes.
France is threatening to stop the “Mistral” deal.
That deal has been bewildering many in Russia anyway. One has to assume that it was based mainly on two points, a) production outsourcing (due to still limited production capacities in Russia), and b) some basis for tighter relations (along with c) certain military considerations).
Actually Russia (in the form of Sovjet union) has all the technology and indeed some Russian shipbuilder, dismayed with the Kremlins decision, mentioned having that capability since decades.
What to think of that? Well actually not even the first ship has been delivered. If france really happened to play that game, Russia will make some noise, take that as a reason to fuck france any way it pleases, and welcome the chance to correct a decision that was an error in the first place anyway. Unlike 6 yrs ago Russia today is in a good position to invest in an upgrade and extension of its strategic shipbuilders.
But don’t hold your breath; I don’t think that’s more than some obedient farting from france anyway.
Someone here made a smart remark about oligarchs in BRICS needing to think twice about keeping or withdrawing their funds/investments from zusa/zeu countries. I agree.
Actually though I think they will do that anyway, possibly even in a concerted action (to a degree), simply because their life is about money and they certainly don’t believe in any future for zusa and, to a degree, zeu. (Take that with caution, economy isn’t my forte).
The sanctions against Russian officials actually can be (and probably are) welcomed by Putin. After all he demanded quite unmistakably that Russian official do *not* have any business or financial interests of Russia. Of course there were some “smart businessmen” who didn’t care. Rest assured, they now *do* care.
japan, of all countries, joined the sanctions, too. In other words, they fully signed the”we accept zusa troups to rape our women without any punishment, we lick zusa asses clean, kindly consider us a completely sold out cheap whore” document.
Which is extremely stupid because there are quite some things (like a peace document or some islands) that are quite important to japan that they ask and try hard to get from Russia since many years. Tough luck, japan.
I personally like japans bending over because it frees Russia, who actually was quite friendly toward japan in the last years, reconsider and be free of any conflict of interest when fully going with China.
Militarily japans somehow seems to have completely sold out to zusa, too, even ideologically. They have built 2 small version “Mistral” kind ships and are building now 2 full size “helicopter destroyers”.
Which btw. militarily is nonsense for any country not having large area interests, which japan certainly hasn’t (besides some wet dreams, maybe). I personally call them “Malgia” ships because they are basically what one needs to clear problem on a remote small island (like the illegaly brit. occupied Malvinas) or some small trouble hole like georgia). To attack any even just midsize opponent those shippies are next to worthless.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 18 2014 10:16 utc | 158

Todd Bennett (149)

Brian I can’t figure out if people like you are nutcases, or if American, outright traitors. Either way I am very impatient, and quite intolerant of anti-USD propaganda. Besides the fact you people are basically morons. No one country, or ten countries, could topple the U.S. dollar, because of a concept called portfolio balance. There is no currency in the world that can readily compete to balance assets within the next decade, much less week, so there is nowhere for the money to go, unless all of the westernized nations agreed to drink economic cyanide all at once. And I don’t put that down for your benefit, but for otherwise reasonable people who would read your tripe and not know better.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
Right you are. zusa is a supreme superior blabla SuperDuper-power. Nothing and nobody can stand up against it. No-one!
It just so happens that zusa is completely broken, looking like a deeply criminal shit pile, completely remote controlled by izrael, and loosing any war or confrontation.
Happenstance. Pure happenstance.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 18 2014 10:22 utc | 159

Todd: Yats has to go. Hand-picked by Nuland, he’s not a credible ruler. But he’s saying some of the right things. He should also renounce his former belligerent rhetoric directed toward ‘separatists’. And try more concrete stuff, like withdrawing the criminal cases against the former ruling party members, leashing or jailing its thugs, the Right Sector and Svoboda, who are going around Ukraine and using their baseball bat intimidation to ‘cleanse’ courts and city and regional governments of anyone associated with the Party of Regions.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 18 2014 10:24 utc | 160

158) The fascists and Western Ukraine is the only “security” Yatseniuk has. He cannot get rid of them. Same for EU. EU will pressure the fascists now to become “respectable” which they will do for a while.
Things will get ugly if the EU does not open borders and coffers soon. Things in the EU will get ugly if they do.
Ukrainian oligarchs are recruiting private security, I hear. So Ukraine will be defended by an oligarch army if at all.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 18 2014 10:39 utc | 161

Yes but this seems like a line item acceptance of the nonpaper from my read, if not rhetorically intense.

Posted by: Todd Bennett | Mar 18 2014 10:40 utc | 162

useful info from Kiev
Is anyone really in control in Ukraine?
[Monday update:
More tweets from our deep throat at Kiev Airport:
The military and the border police continue to confiscate equipment that is being sent for the failed National Guard.
All cargo planes are inspected by the army. From what I can tell, they are of the same opinion as the Air Force.
The military command of Ukraine will make a decision in the next few days and communicate it to Russia, and their government, in that order.
70% percent of soldiers in Crimea have already communicated officially that they are transferring to the Russian army.
The EU, the USA and their blasted mother don’t recognize the referendum, yet in Kiev most people accept it and care little or nothing about it.
It’s incredible that [the referendum] is more accepted here than in the rest of the world. Why don’t they leave these people alone, may I ask?
Military neighbors, friends, colleagues, consider [the referendum] legit and understand it and accept it. The world that gives opinions about these people, doesn’t. Strange.]
[While everyone is concentrating on the referendum in Crimea, let’s not lose sight of what’s happening in the rest of (formerly independent) Ukraine. As we already know, the government in Kiev is dead broke; the aid that is forthcoming from the US is barely enough to cover its debt to Russia’s Gazprom, for natural gas. Ukraine’s bond yield has spiked to 50% while $15 billion of these bonds mature andhave to be rolled over this year.
A lot has been made of the Russian and Belarussian troops massing all around Ukraine and in Crimea, but so far little has been heard of the state of the military within Ukraine itself. But now it appears that Ukraine’s military (which has never been involved in any armed conflict anywhere and is poorly trained and poorly armed) is mostly on the Russian side already, and, in any case, not willing to follow orders from Kiev. It also appears that the National Guard goon squadsbeing hastily organized by the government in Kiev may be effective at intimidating civilians, but that they won’t be much of a military force.
This information comes from a well-positioned source. There is a Spanish-speaking air traffic controller working at the Borispol International Airport in Kiev, who has been tweetting in Spanish and giving a blow-by-blow account of the goings on in the air and on the ground, along with some useful commentary. What follows is a summary of some of the recent tweets. Many thanks to Francisco for putting it together.Here is what I see as the best case scenario for Ukraine: Russian and Ukrainian militaries fraternize and merge without a single shot fired, followed by a joint mop-up operation against the nationalist thugs.Once the nationalists’ ability to intimidate the populace is neutralized, the country can be reorganized, ideally as a federative structure that supports local languages, dialects and cultures.]
The Ukrainian military are by and large refusing to follow orders from he government. Many if not the majority of them are incredibly angry. Some generals have openly declared that they will not follow orders from some foreign-imposed government. The chief of the Air Force is a major problem for the government: so far he has flatlyrefused to fly any missions at all, and has grounded all the planes. He says that he will not follow orders except from a freely elected governent. Until such a time, he will follow only his own orders.
In this ATC’s opinion, this attitude within the military is a good thing, because there would already be lots of casualties had they had followed their orders. It looks like at least half, and probably more, of the military feels much more affinity toward their Russian colleages than towards the Ukrainian Nationalists who are nominally in power. The government is frantically trying to recruit and organize a National Guard, with whatever western help they can get. There is no equipment or money in the country.
The problem with this National Guard is that it’s being recruited based on an ideology of nationalistic bigotry and hatred rather than any useful aptitude. The people in Kiev are much more afraid of the nationalists and the National Guard being created than of the military. It appears that the sentiment towards the Russians is in general very friendly, that most Ukrainians consider Russians to be their brothers. The exception is the ultra-nationalistic faction, whichsuperficially seems to be gaining a lot of power through intimidatio
http://cluborlov.blogspot.fi/2014/03/is-anyone-really-in-control-in-ukraine.html

Posted by: brian | Mar 18 2014 10:43 utc | 163

Done deal it looks like. http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/yatsenyuk-ukraine-will-conduct-decentralization-339785.html
How long before U.S. and Russia make a Support Group announcement?

Posted by: Todd Bennett | Mar 18 2014 10:44 utc | 164

162) agree.
Now let’s find out if the fascists got a life of their own. And if Transnistria will be allowed to join Russia.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 18 2014 10:58 utc | 165

haha g8 kick out russia,
http://rt.com/news/g8-russia-meeting-fabius-558/
who cares about of g8 anyway? a us led group with its pathetic puppet regimes.

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 18 2014 11:01 utc | 166

Transistria has been considered unofficially Russian for some time. They are a breakaway, not formally recognized and Russian troops have a presence there. Doubt it will be an issue to anybody.

Posted by: Todd Bennett | Mar 18 2014 11:02 utc | 167

162: My guess is that whatever Yats comes up with will not go far enough, will not be trusted, and will be ignored/discarded. No one (important) is talking to or negotiating with Yats. The real negotiations are taking place between Russia and the US/EU. Anyway, the south and east regions (and Russia) demand autonomy that’s beyond Yats and Nuland’s wildest nightmares.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 18 2014 11:17 utc | 168

165) Poland for example is bound to get hysterical – they already are.
For some reason Tusk has been warning of Ukrainian refugees – now he calls them migrants.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 18 2014 11:21 utc | 169

Todd, read this, very helpful understanding not only brian’s pov but many others on this blog. (Anyone who hasn’t read it, I highly recommend it)
Militarizing Class Warfare: the historical foundations of the neoliberal/neoconservative nexus
DAVID GABBARD East Carolina University, USA
http://www.wwwords.co.uk/pdf/freetoview.asp?j=pfie&vol=5&issue=2&year=2007&article=2_Gabbard_PFIE_5_2_web

Posted by: okie farmer | Mar 18 2014 11:21 utc | 170

Well, Putin is into reconciliation – let’s see if anybody else is.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 18 2014 11:27 utc | 171

okie farmer @168: Smart and well-written first couple of pages. Will read the whole thing later, thanks for the link.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 18 2014 11:40 utc | 172

somebody
poland and sweden reminds me of israel, nonsenical regimes that barks every now and then with protection of the US.

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 18 2014 11:51 utc | 173

171) With the difference that today’s Poles and Swedes are peaceful people who do not start wars.
It seems the US has lost Europe – economic integration is complete and the money is where Russia is.
Making them the bad guys nobody is supposed to talk to seems the only strategy left.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 18 2014 12:01 utc | 174

So when Ukraine makes the trade, is Obama really going to be so technical as to say we respect the process by which Ukraine has approved Crimea’s decision? How do we walk balk the rhetoric for the handshake and sigs?

Posted by: Todd Bennett | Mar 18 2014 12:03 utc | 175

Haaretz on Tuesday reported Israel’s defense minister Moshe Yaalon accused the United States of projecting weakness internationally and said Israel could not rely on its main ally.
“We had thought it would be the United States that would lead the campaign against Iran,” said Yaalon, who pointed to the Ukraine crisis as an example of Washington “showing weakness”.

Posted by: Mike Fink | Mar 18 2014 12:15 utc | 176

173) They don’t intend the walkback, the US are telling European politicians either with us or against us.
I guess a lot did not go according to plan.
Maybe, the EU will try to trade with Kosove (no one in the EU wants Kosovo).
It is a diplomatic mess.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 18 2014 12:47 utc | 177

No it is according to plan, Yatsenyuk went line by line and swallowed the nonpaper, so it is just a matter of time before Obama announces a deal, but Ukrainian Parliament has to act to acknowledge Crimea’s decision. Then I think we can do it.

Posted by: Todd Bennett | Mar 18 2014 12:53 utc | 178

I’m a little shocked. Putin just formally accepted Crimea into Russia.
That’s not a good sign.
Many said there’s some kind of deal between Putin and obama, sth. along the lines “You can take Crimea, we’ll make a little sanction noise, nothing serious, but you accept the integrity of the rest of ukraine” plus some details like ukraine not joining zato (but zeu!).
Maybe. But if that’s more or less true Putin will have millions of Russians in the southern and eastern ukraine who will take that very, very badly feeling like second class Russians of little worth to Russia. And that’s just the start of the troubles.
Last but least Putin would have easily given away a very major part of his reputation; many will say he’s not that strong in the end and giving in to weztern demands.
That would even cost Putin dearly in Russia herself.
Maybe I’m stubborn but I still think that’s just an intermezzo. I still think that in the end the whole ukraine will look quite differently. But I also see that, unless Putin has a major ace up his sleeve, anything coming now will be *way* less good and elegant than could be had without Crimea as part of Russia.
Maybe the southern/eastern regions will form a new state, maybe they will stay in ukraine, albeit with more autonomy. No matter which way, the wezt will take that as a major victory and Putin will look weaker.
What shocks me is that Putin did it without any urgency or necessity whatsoever. The Sevastopol may be important but it’s definitely not valuable enough for what Putin just did.
And I feel ashamed, betrayed and disappointed that Putin made Russia look weak and gave the wezt a chance to declare themselves victorious. medvedev yes, he lacks the spine and the brains; he even fell for stupid “democracy” and partnership tricks. But Putin? That’s shocking. And frankly, I don’t care batshit what Putin has negotiated in Russias interest; NOTHING is worth to give in a single millimeter to the wezt, particularly to zusa. To tolerate the slightest scratch to the honour of Russia is an unconditional no-go, no matter what. And Putin had *all* the cards in his hands.
Some are beginning to say how smart that was from Putin and that he still can enter ukraine and take whatever he wants, anyway. Yes, he can – but not as an honourable upright man; whatever victories will come from Russia will be tainted by having negotiated with nazi and terrorist sponsors. And zusa, being what it is, will certainly take that as an invitation to consider Russia weak and to go on marauding.
I’m ashamed.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 18 2014 13:05 utc | 179

176) Well, Joe Biden is going to meet Tusk this evening :-))
I expect the renewal of the NATO missile shield. When they are sure that Russia will not invade Ukraine they will say that was because of their decisive action …

Posted by: somebody | Mar 18 2014 13:06 utc | 180

somebody
Poland and sweden peaceful? How so? Already forgot who warmonger against Russia? Poland and Sweden are typical puppet regimes to america. Their now dead PM was more or less a neocon and their current FM is one of the biggest warmongers against Russia.

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 18 2014 13:07 utc | 181

It’s official now, Crimea will be accepted back into Russia. Putin just confirmed this.

Posted by: scalawag | Mar 18 2014 13:08 utc | 182

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 18, 2014 9:05:46 AM | 177
Who cares what you think, I am sure Putin and his advisers have their reasons. Crimea was immediate work in progress, the other’s will be a given a fully autonomous, federated state. Nothing stopping them from integration with the Custom Union of Russia.

Posted by: Hans | Mar 18 2014 13:30 utc | 183

I wrote this comment yesterday way before today’s news but never posted it.
Crimeans are for the most part very loyal supporters of Putin and Russia unlike the people of say Chechnya and Tatarstan (to choose the most extreme samples) who like the Ukrainians might sell-out Putin and Russia in a heartbeat. I would imagine therefore that a loyal Republic of Crimea annexed to Russia would be an asset when the US/EU are intent on proceeding with their destabilization agenda against Russia at some future date and ready to magnify any hint of disloyalty to stir the pot and fan the flames.
Can Putin secure the loyalty of Crimeans without welcoming Crimea back to the motherland and thus giving them what they voted for? Maybe, but annexation is a safer bet.
I can understand not rushing the process for many reasons, I can even understand why Putin would address Crimea as sovereign and independent, because with this vote it essentially wants to be viewed as independent after lingering in Ukraine’s shadow for so long, but Crimea is also seeking annexation and I believe annexation is a done deal.
If it’s not, and I’m wrong, that’s fine, but my gut tells me annexation will happen. As far as Eastern Ukraine is concerned; they better get some kind of autonomyside Ukraine otherwise they will fight to break away and Putin will help them and welcome them as well.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 18 2014 13:35 utc | 184

Hans (181)
As coincidence happens to have it there actually are quite some people around here who do care what I think.
As for people being interested in what you think I’m not so sure.
Next time you feel like uttering something kindly utter something tangible and relating to the matter. I’m no politician and I have no qualms whatsoever ripping an asshole apart.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 18 2014 13:37 utc | 185

Correction *autonomy* not autonomyside

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 18 2014 13:38 utc | 186

Uy! autonomy *inside*.
– I need coffee!

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 18 2014 13:40 utc | 187

Mr. Pragma,
Many, many of your opinions are right on the money! Don’t let anyone get under your skin. Some people live to tear other people down. I have read a lot of your comments where I thought “hammer to nail”, even if I didn’t express it at the time. You have a lot of intuitive insight that others lack. Believe it.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 18 2014 13:46 utc | 188

Pragma @177: “… Putin will have millions of Russians in the southern and eastern ukraine who will take that very, very badly feeling like second class Russians of little worth to Russia.”
As I’ve said before, except in Crimea Putin is dealing with where majorities are ethnic Ukrainian. He’s consistent about assisting (if they ask), with military force if necessary, majority Russian regions that are near or adjacent to Russia. Putin doesn’t want to have (and would be an a-hole if he did have) the same policy toward Ukraine regions where a minority are ethnically Russian.
I’m concerned about the fate of Russian speakers and the Russian ethnic minorities inside Ukraine too, but there are signs Russia is successfully forcing through strong regional autonomy within a Ukrainian federation. We’ll see.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 18 2014 13:52 utc | 189

179) You don’t mean the Swedish submarine incideents by any chance :-)9
Swedes even kept out of World War II which is quite a feat. And they have kept out of NATO. Poland most of the time was not even a country (with a national anthem telling people “Poland is not lost yet” they probably top the list in patriotic defeatism)
Just because they might have a different opinion does not mean they are not peaceful.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 18 2014 13:56 utc | 190

@ Mr. Pragma | 177
Its too early to be ashamed, but I can see why some may be worried. Eastern/southern part might still join Crimea soon as they said before referendum. It will be harder to outright join Russia now though, and risk/stakes for Putin greater. And whats with the instant acceptance of Crimea while pushing Kiyev for new constitution with greater autonomy for east/south? Its possible deal may indeed have been reached for Russia to take Crimea but leave the rest in Ukraine.
Better solution would have been to recognize Crimea as a Sovereign state, but not accept it just yet, with east/south joining it and forming a new country, de facto alied with Russia.

Posted by: Harry | Mar 18 2014 13:56 utc | 191

how do you spell Anschluss in Russian?

Posted by: Another Jeff | Mar 18 2014 13:58 utc | 192

Another JEff
I dont know, ask your nazi friends in Svoboda.

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 18 2014 14:00 utc | 193

Mr. Pragma,
Putin is not caving. This was no doubt his plan all along. He just got a very loyal enclave and a warm-water seaport. If ships start comming into the Black Sea, he’ll have a fortress and armada lined up to greet them!
How do you know he doesn’t have a strategy still in the works for Eastern Ukraine? You think he’s just going to fold his arms now and allow zusa and zeu to do whatever the hell they want? NEVER. You think that only zusa and zeu are expert shit disturbers? It won’t take a lot to inspire those people in Donetsk to start the break-away. Stay tuned. I believe Putin is on top of this and no way did Russia get weaker by taking in Crimea. Obama’s a jellyfish and Putin is a…blue whale!
RUSSIA 2 US 0

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 18 2014 14:00 utc | 194

@177 Mr. Pragma
You were right when you wrote to me earlier about fundamental differences between the east and west. I respect totally your opinion but my own reading is totally different than yours.
Some time ago Putin said he would respect the will of Crimea, and he has done so. For me, the next act is the most important one as regards how the world will see Putin and the “new” Russia. This involves how the southern and eastern sections go, and following that how the western part will be resolved. In my opinion, if the eventual result is that Russia allows Ukraine to freely adopt it’s open destiny, whatever its people decide, while protecting them from evil psychopathic western manipulation, he will be known as a real hero, which as you know, I already consider him to be. Hopefully he will not be influenced in a negative way by the siloviki, which to my limited understanding, contain elements of a Russian type of nationalist neocon. Am I totally mistaken in my interpretation?
I believe most people are sick and tired of political leaders talking about freedom and then imposing through brute strength their own interpretation of it. The strong showing compassion for the weak is the correct way and has been so little used throughout our rather bloody history.
Whatever disdain you hold towards the US, and I agree with much that you say, except for the rather blood curdling hyperbole you sometimes use :), the global reality at this moment is that both the US and Russia are the only real important players. The EU and it’s fascist masters in Brussels are clearly fading fast. China is rising but is not yet ready to play on the big stage. I only hope that the US will rid itself of its fascist monsters, and after their well-deserved and imminent suffering and justifiable isolation by all the decent people of the world, take their place WITHIN the world’s community and not its bully.

Posted by: TicoTiger | Mar 18 2014 14:02 utc | 195

somebody
You have no idea what you are talking about as usual. And i dont see why a german would support either poland nor sweden like you do.
Sweden kept out of ww2? No they worked with the germans but not openly.
Out of Nato? Wrong again they work with nato but not openly.
If you call support of nazis in ukraine peaceful, if you call supporting coup something peaceful, if you call warmongering against Russia peaceful, well then there is no point arguing with you.

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 18 2014 14:03 utc | 196

I would have to think a deal has been reached, otherwise annexation would have been postponed. Why annex without the Federalization guarantee? If you annex Crimea without that, what leverage do you have left? Eastern Ukraine as a hostage? Doubtful. It would turn very bloody very quickly and take away the shine. No, he made his deal, and soon will sign off on territorial integrity. This was a shot across the bow directly at the U.S. Intervention is going to cost, and Putin will collect.

Posted by: Todd Bennett | Mar 18 2014 14:06 utc | 197

@177
what an absolute idiot! Putin and the duma have done the right thing, whether you like it or not
#troll

Posted by: brian | Mar 18 2014 14:07 utc | 198

the Krimeans DONT agree with 177

Posted by: brian | Mar 18 2014 14:08 utc | 199

kalithea
Thank you.
Maybe I didn’t make my problem with todays events that clear. And in fact some poeple told me not to worry, that many people in Duma laugh off the sanction, that Putin hasn’t lost a single inch, etc., etc.
The issue is somewhat behind the surface. It could possibly best described such:
Until yesterday Putin could say “I don’t understand the excitement. Leaving aside vain blabbering, fact is that Russia always acted perfectly legal and has not been an involved party in Crimea, no matter what western politicians or ukrainian criminals utter”.
He can’t do that anymore. Putin, standing for Russia, *did have* his own interests, he *was* an involved party. The difference only being that Putin acted legally and professional while obama, merkel, and the other zio-puppets acted amateurish and obviously criminally. But in the end that’s just a detail and one, that can easily counterbalanced by weztern PR blabla and conspirational media.
And there was no need whatsoever. Crimea could have happily existed as in independent state for weeks months, and even years.
Maybe it was even meant as a signal of strength, basically saying “We don’t care about your sanctions, we do whatever we fucking please”. But then, isn’t that very statement describing quite well criminal zusas position, too?
And there will be a price to pay. As I said, ethnic Russians in other regions are disappointed and pissed off. Of course, they must think they’re just 3rd class Russians, they are unimportant because they don’t have an important Russian base. Possibly even worse, many have lost trust.
It’s an extremely important difference whether one trusts – and can trust – a straight, intelligent, integer president or whether one is depending on just another wheeler-dealer politician, even if he is intelligent.
There is a reason for zusa to act they way it does – and even the fact that it’s the remote controlled bull terrier of the zionists: They are primitive, lack even basic culture, lack any significant amount of history; accordingly their way is the way of all primitives, force, violence, war and dirty tricks, no matter how low one must drop to employ them.
And there is a reason why Russia can *afford* to act differently. They have everything zusa doesn’t have.
Last but least there was a message, an extremely important message linked to Putin: “One can act legally, constructively and guided by the idea of a world of partners”.
I remember aching a thousand times when Putin spoke of zamericans as “our partners” but, oh well, I thought the idea behind it is worth it.
From today on the weztern politician scum can rightfully say “What’s the big difference? You follow your interests, no matter whether nicely and legally or whether dirtyly and illegally and we follow ours. We tried to de facto annect ukraine to zeu/zato and you did annect Crimea”.
And Putin will have to just take it, he will at least look like one of them. And what Putin has to eat, Russia has to eat.
Until yesterday Russia had a president in his own league. From today on it’s a president that just happens to be smarter than the others. That’s a very very major difference.
As for the “Russia isn’t that strong after all” part I’m angry but not worried. Sure enough zusa will quite soon offer new opportunities to answer that question and to show zusa its place.
Ceterum censeo israel americanamque vehementer delenda esse!

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 18 2014 14:10 utc | 200