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Ukraine: The Pissing Contest Continues
Finally a major U.S. paper is picking up on the problem of supporting a "revolution" that is driven by fascists: Ukraine's threat from within – Neofascists are as much a menace to Ukraine as Putin's actions in Crimea.
I for one do not consider "Putin's actions" in Crimea, i.e. the Russian Federation counter move to the "western" supported coup in Kiev, a "menace". But if claiming such makes it possible to talk about the biggest problem Ukraine will have for a while so be it.
Today Russia vetoed an UN resolution against the Crimea referendum. The U.S. ambassador called Russia "isolated". Well, how many times was the U.S. the only one voting no on a resolution against Israel? How "isolating" was that?
The U.S. has threatened further "consequences" should the referendum continue (which it will). But if the U.S. wants to step up the escalation ladder to keep its puppet coup government in Kiev in power Russia can do similar for its own purpose:
Russia has received numerous requests from Ukrainian civilians to protect them from radicals, including those from the Right Sector group, and has promised consider them, a Russian Foreign Ministry statement says.
Translation: "Dear Obama, do you really want us to move our troops in?"
Juan Moment
You are free to think and believe whatever you please, incl. that I’m weird and stupid.
You are not, however, free to turn around or considerably bend what I say.
Mr. Pragma, considering the many postings of yours describing Putin as a shrewd and clever leader, I am surprised to read you believe he doesn’t understand the concept of an “opportunity presenting itself”, let alone make use of it.
I didn’t say that Putin “doesn’t understand the concept of an opportunity presenting itself”.
Despite your attempts at painting a different picture, I remain convinced that a strategist like Vladimir Putin, who despite the countless forces interested in removing him from power, within and abroad, managed to stay top dog for over a decade in a country like Russia, makes use of opportunities for breakfast.
Neither did I try to paint a different picture nor did I say that Putin doesn’t recognize or use opportunities.
What I did say was that – and there seems to be the problem of your understanding or the lack thereof – Putin doesn’t think or act the blunt and stupid zamerican way.
To the rest of you post it’s not even worth to answer in any detail because you just make up things like “Putin has played this so far … open minded to Russia growing westwards “. Not that there is any proof or even just any strong indicator for that but hey, feel free to feel or to be convinced of whatever you please …
All in all you seem to be stuck in some kind of zamerican “thinking” and are merely projecting that on Putin; what you describe is basically what a zamerican politician would do, if here were in Putins shoes.
I personally prefer to stick to *known* facts like Putin consistently accepting international law and sticking to agreements – which he did again re. ukraine! – or Putin acting very rationally or Putin not thinking short-term.
As far as Crimea is concerned Russia spoke a lot about helping and supporting Crimea in pretty every way – but there was no official statement saying Russia would make Crimea a part of Russia if Crimea decided that to be their favourite option.
And indeed “coming home to Russia” currently is more a metaphorical phrase within a frame of mind (created by whomsoever) that implies there are just two options, either joining Russia or staying a terrorized part of ukraine under a criminal regime.
One way to explain this could be Crimean leaders preferring a very simply high-contrast formula for the peoples mind. After all “creating our own state and have other regions join” sounds complicated, maybe even frightening for many average people with not much political knowledge. “joining Russia” sound simple and cozy.
Furthermore, if one would have given 3 options to chose from, one would have cemented and fixed a lot. After all, if offering the option “join Russia” – which was a must alone for being so evident a desire of many – plus the third option of creating a Crimean state, one could hardly later say “Sorry, just a pragmatic necessity; we’ll ignore, say, 60% of your voices and anyway go with the second most voted option to create a state”.
As I said, things, if looked at properly and profoundly, hardly ever are as simple as zamerican “minds” want – and need – it.
Remember medvedev explaining a year or two ago that Russia was not yet ready for a full-scale democracy and that Russia still needed a “guided democracy”? Well, here one might see an example for what he meant.
And just btw. he perfectly right! Actually even western countries aren’t ready for a full-scale democracy. Because the people aren’t. Just look at zusa and what people understand (shockingly many zamericans, for instance do not even know the length of a senate term) and what/whom they vote for or even what they *accept* as de facto system and choices.
The question that this (Crimea referendum) is all about is first and foremost “do we want to stay with/in ukraine or not?”.
The “joining Russia” option can very quickly turn into separating from ukraine, becoming a state and being very closely linked to Russia, e.g. militarily, using the Ruble, etc.
Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 16 2014 7:41 utc | 76
Leftovers from the thread: Ukraine: A State Falling Apart?
“thomas
MoA is not a dump site for propaganda shit.
You believe in the power and usefulness of this or that antifa movement? Great. Send them your money. Even put a link and some account info here – not that it’s worth anything but hey, your rights shall be be respected.
But we also have rights. And we’re certainly not here at MoA to get bombarded by multiple long propaganda pieces.
I feel particularly offended by those pieces of shit (you dumped here) suggesting that “the eastern and southern regions” are particularly nazi infested. Furthermore you dare to entertain the proposal of Germans (of all!) to fight Nazis in ukraine?
How about first cleaning your own German Nazi mess?! How about first cleaning your secret services, your police, even your state police who happened to actively and in most dirty ways supporting Nazi, even known murders, even worse, your authorities co-operated those murders.
Let me set you straight, Mr German propaganda agent, thomas.
While the Nazi voters percentage is usually given as between 10% and 15% for ukraine by western Nazi supporting msm, the truth is quite different.
The correct numbers are > 15%, often even 25% and more in *western* ukraine with *western* ukraine hot spots of > 33% (e.g. lvov) – in the eastern and southern parts you play to be so concerned about the numbers are within the margin of error, i.e. around 1%.
@all
I suggest we refrain from quoting a lot from msm, twitter, etc., in particular lenghty stuff or series of tweets.
Why? Because OF COURSE the ukraine nazi and thug regime supporters in the wezt are and will be firing their propaganda cannons in berserk mode. Dumping or even discussing that here at MoA will merely distract and ruin reasonable discussions.
What troubles me more than all the vain and rotten propaganda shit is the fact that for a second time protesters and policemen have been killed by nazi sturmtruppen attacks. That in itself is sad, disgusting and dangerously explosive; but there is a second danger, namely that Russia feels ever more pressure to protect our compatriots and ethnic Russians.
I personally wouldn’t have the slightest problem with Russia going in and taking care of the problem the hard way but it would, of course, be abused by the weztern nazi friends to make Russia look evil (about which I wouldn’t care neither but Russias government would).
Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 15, 2014 6:24:14 PM | 174
guest77 (176)
we might discuss what Ahmadinejad meant when he discussed the holocaust in terms of a “myth.”
But it *is* a myth. Possibly a myth that could turn out to be true if properly examined.
But until it’s properly examined, according to well established scientific standards and in an unbiased way, it’s a myth.
That’s the definition of “myth”. Some story that is widely known and that has not been properly examined and proven true or false.
And there is more. If certain not insignificant details of a story are proven wrong then that facts adds weight to the assumption the story is a myth and not fact.
Well noted, my desire isn’t to deny (or to declare true) the holocaust story; doing that one would by definition be excluded from the group of credible observers. My point is merely that the holocaust has not been examine properly and scientifically and unbiased, and that there are (even major) factors indicating that the holocaust is at least in part a myth, i.e. not what and as it is being told.
I might be wrong (I don’t speak Farsi) but from what I know Achmadinedschad did *not* deny the holocaust but he did invite to properly examine in an unbiased way.
Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 15, 2014 6:56:20 PM | 177″
This so-called “Mr. Pragma” obviously is the owner of the blog here, otherwise i cannot explain his rants against my right of freedom of expression when I’m just offering a different perspective: I’m convinced that fighting a NATO / EU move to include the Ukraine into their spheres of influence will not be successful by subordinating the interests of the citizens of Ukraine under another authoritarian rule, Putin’s Russia. I cannot even find any of the points “Mr Pragma” is making against the articles and thoughts I presented in there, he justs spins some strawmen and fights them, but nothing can be find in the articles themselves.
This guy who is occupying close to 20% of the comments space on MoA, expressing himself on every issue discussed here more or less every half an hour of the day is complaining about some lengthy articles I sent? So far I did not have a single exchange of opinions with him, nevertheless he comes down on me like God Zeus. He is the perfect authoritarian compulsive character, neurotic and ad hominem with everybody (just count how many other commentators have been insulted by him already). I imagine he sits in his little apartment every day, not doing anything else than hurling lightings against mankind who doesn’t understand the real importance of great statemen like Putin, Assad, Ahmadinejad and, not to forget, “Mr Pragma” himself. But the formers are or were ruling countries, at least parts of it, whereas he is only ruling in his 50m2 appartment.
His childish behaviour of adding a “Z” to everything (which unfortunately is copied by some other commentators here) has been toppled now in his last comment in the Ukraine thread: now this antisemite is openly denying the holocaust under the normal antisemite pretext: “My point is merely that the holocaust has not been examine properly and scientifically and unbiased” – this great spirit Mr Pragma has not examined and proven what 100.000s of scientists and researcher have written on the holocaust, so it is “in part a myth”. Said and sealed by Mr Pragma, don’t even dare to contradict.
He is the perfect authoritarian SS-character, the officer Maximilian Aue, Jonathan Littell describes in his great book: “Les Bienveillantes” about the Nazi extinguishing crusade in Ukraine in WWII. Mr Pragma’s very similar destruction fantasies against Israel, “Zionism”, “Zionists” and even the US are also covered in an academic fashion by using the old roman proverb about the need to destroy Carthago.
But maybe the “Mr Pragma” isn’t a real person; I rather think the character has been developed by some secret services – maybe the CIA or other “zionists” – to destroy the reputation of this blog by spreading antisemite, antidemocratic and authoritarian thoughts. I cannot imagine who else would be in a position to always write and comment without obviously going to work and having a private life apart from the internet.
Posted by: thomas | Mar 16 2014 9:58 utc | 87
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