Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 19, 2014

Ukraine: Just Some News Items II

It seems to dawn to some "western" governments that the spirits they called up for the coup against the elected Ukrainian government may be a problem.

Parliament members of the Svoboda (nazi) party used force against the head of the main Ukrainian TV station and forced the man to resign. The leader of the attacking gang was a member of the parliament committee on free speech. The "western" para-government organization Amnesty International is concerned and wants an investigation. Good luck with that. The new attorney general of Ukraine is also a member of Svoboda. The U.S. embassy in the Ukraine also feels a bit embarrassed and notes:

Over the past months, we have commented positively on Svoboda’s productive, indeed key, role during the Maidan protests and in the peaceful transition to a new, more transparent government.

At east they still admitt that.

The problem Amnesty and the Embassy have with the issue at hand is that the Svoboda folks filmed themselves (see at 4:00min) while doing their thuggish business. The embassy surely thinks they should not have done so as it confirms Russia's (true) narrative of a fascists coup.

But the fascists do need to make their intimidation campaign public because such reenforces the intimidation. It is their way to establish "street cred" and to suppress any resistance against them.

Even Foreign Policy now acknowledges Yes, There Are Bad Guys in the Ukrainian Government - It's time for a frank conversation about some of the unsavory characters in Kiev. But the author comes to this rather laughable conclusion:

So is Ukraine poised for a Nazi putsch? The good news is that opinion polls show Tyahnybok at just 5 percent approval, far behind Vitali Klitschko (the hulking, pro-Western former boxing champion) and the center-right ex-prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko.

How do you think people will vote, or rather more important, the votes be counted, when Svoboda now has all Ukrainian security services under its control and engages in a campaign of public intimidation? Does anyone believe that these fascists will stick to democratic rules and will allow themselves to be voted out of office?

In other news the Ukrainian government has now ordered its troops in Crimea (Russia) to leave peacefully. This Russian "invasion" and "occupation" must be the least bloody the world has ever seen.

Posted by b on March 19, 2014 at 18:14 UTC | Permalink


good question... the more information comes out on who is running ukraine at present, the more i think the west is going to have a hard time scrubbing the dirt away thru propaganda optics.

Posted by: james | Mar 19 2014 18:25 utc | 1

b - you have a typo at the beginning of this sentence "How do you think will be people vote, or rather more important, the votes be counted,..."

perhaps you mean how do you think people will vote? delete this post afterwards.

Posted by: james | Mar 19 2014 18:35 utc | 2

"Does anyone believe that the West and their puppets will stick to democratic rules and will allow themselves to be voted out of office?"

Corrected. US and EU invested so many billions and their entire weight behind bloody coup by breaking all possible local and international laws, and does anyone seriously think they'll allow transparent and correct vote counting? Regardless if we are talking about Tyahnybok, Klitschko or anybody else, vote will be rigged (if needed).

Real life example from Lithuania. Few elections ago pro-West candidate was loosing (Adamkus) against pro-Russia candidate, computer broke down in Kaunas (2nd biggest city), and when it came back up - suddenly Adamkus was in lead, out of nowhere. Voting commission refused to recount the votes. Next elections - exactly the same scenario, computer goes down, then up - and Adamkus starts leading, again. This happens in backwater country with little importance, imagine how rigged the votes will be in country where stakes are very high.

Posted by: Harry | Mar 19 2014 18:49 utc | 3

Actually I'm wondering whether the current events in ukraine are not already part of vote rigging in the sense that after the nazi thugs just about everybody, even misfits like klitschko or "spine injured on high heels" timochenko, will look comparably clean and dandy.

On a similar note I'm wondering on whom and how the nazi terror and terrorists will be blamed. After all, zusa will sure enough not want to be seen as the guilty party.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 19 2014 19:14 utc | 5

Harry # 3 "imagine how rigged the votes will be in country where stakes are very high." Yup. Happens here all the time, especially with all the easily-hacked computer-network voting machines in Rethug areas. Same exact thing happened in Alaska, Ohio, and the 2004 presidential race (I kept the precinct results up on my computer when I went to bed and when I refreshed it it the morning, VOILA, they were all reversed. Oh, and in 2008 our votes never even got counted: supposedly something happened in the county where Republican votes were too high, and Obama was elected before they even bothered to straighten it out. So yeah, rah rah for importing American democracy...

Posted by: Nora | Mar 19 2014 19:16 utc | 6

Mr. P #5, very interesting thought there. First they enable the thugs, then when the population is sufficiently terrorized/reduced to their liking, they make "an example" of them and/or transfer them elsewhere, rinse and repeat. Not sure these spirits can actually be contained though.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 19 2014 19:20 utc | 7

Nora (7)

Oh they need not be contained. All that's needed is some nazis killing, say a pregnant woman and some kids, if needed in a false flag, but this time screamed out in their many media outlets ... and then some "nazi" (real or false, no matter) who "confesses" having been payed by the Russians from the beginning because Putin needed a pretext to grab Crimea ...

Then have their preferred puppet declare a war on terrorism (haha) and he/she will handily win the elections.

I'm sure that something like that is in the making.

I didn't say for the fun of it but for good reasons that Putin should have waited with Crimea. Then he could have a "ukrainian", say Berkut commando, conduct a surprise hit action in kiev to arrest the regime players and collect enough evidence to brand zusa as a major criminal and terrorist organization (which it *is*).
Simple: I tell you that he who has - or doctors - and publishes the evidence about maidan first will be the winner of that game.

And there will be more disadvantages, some of them really bad, for unnecessarily accepting Crimea too early.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 19 2014 19:52 utc | 8


Don't forget the "holy" law of group psychology: The larger any group the stupider. Thousands of "democratic" politicians in zusa and zeu know that and make a very criminal and a very comfortable living relying on that rule.

OF COURSE it will work in ukraine, too.

The people of *every* country can be very easily manipulated. And, sorry to disappoint some here, THAT is the very reason for democracy. If democracy would really give any power to the people it wouldn't be praised and even demanded but strictly forbidden.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 19 2014 19:56 utc | 9

The only comparisons for bloodless invasions that spring to mind are the Reoccupation of the Rhineland in 1936, the Anschluss and Czechoslovakia in 1938.

Posted by: ess emm | Mar 19 2014 19:57 utc | 10

So they rig the election keeping the nazi boot boys in power thereby giving a green light to every directionless, ignored and disgruntled young nationalist in Europe?

Do they watch all these youtube videos by the Zvboda of their intimidation tactics with disgust or admiration?

Posted by: anti-zionist | Mar 19 2014 20:01 utc | 11

I guess they watch them cold blooded and probably sometimes giggling.

But hey, it's just a couple of 10 million people suffering and afraid and they are not even zamericans.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 19 2014 20:04 utc | 12

#8. God, I hope you're wrong. The one really truly good thing about annexing Crimea yesterday was the truly profound effect it had on Russians, and not just in Crimea. That does matter, a lot -- I swear I could feel it half a world away, so I imagine it also galvanized a lot of folks in the relevant regions of Ukraine. The Saker said a long time back that he believed Putin would help them if they first tried to help themselves; maybe now they will.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 19 2014 20:10 utc | 13

Germany's NPD Maintains Close Ties to Svoboda

... it is astounding that Germany has approached the Ukrainian right-wing extremists in a manner that would be unthinkable with the NPD. On April 29, 2013, for example, Germany's ambassador in Kiev met with Svoboda's parliamentary floor leader Oleh Tyahnybok. During the meeting, Berlin has insisted, the ambassador exhorted Tyahnybok to respect the inviolability of human dignity and human rights.

But the Ukrainian right wing has also received instruction financed by German taxpayers. Party members appeared at events hosted by the Konrad Adenauer Stiftung, the German political foundation affiliated with Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservatives. Examples include the conference entitled "Lessons from the 2012 Parliamentary Elections," the seminar series called "The Higher School of Politics" and a discussion on the 2012 elections.

Even the German Society for International Cooperation (GIZ) has supported the party. GIZ oversaw a project for the "formation of administrative capacities in the public financing sector." Svoboda parliamentarians took part in two trips to Berlin in 2013 in conjunction with the project.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 19 2014 20:16 utc | 14


Come on, let's be realistic.

The Russians were already very happy to see Crimea break free and being independent. And they would be no less happy if Crimea would have become a part of Russia some months later than they were now.

As for the rest:

Those guys already killed; even peaceful demonstrators. And zusa has already - and damn not for the first time - payed, trained, and instigated terrorists and killers.

So what makes you doubt those people had the slightest problem killing "Russian pigs" (that's how they called them, remember?), adults or kids, no matter, if it was for "the cause"?

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 19 2014 20:17 utc | 15

Mr. P: I am realistic -- destroying a place is what the US has always done best, right from our very beginnings. But that doesn't mean I can't wonder about ways to control our current set of monsters, either the hooligans on the street or the hooligans in office.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 19 2014 20:35 utc | 17

The problem Amnesty and the Embassy have with the issue at hand is that the Svoboda folks filmed themselves (see at 4:00min) while doing their thuggish business

Already removed from YouTube. That was quick. :~)

Posted by: oboblomov | Mar 19 2014 20:38 utc | 18


OK. But in order to make that dream ("control the monsters") true, I'd advise to dream in whashington and sourroundings with a caliber .40 gun and plenty ammunition ...

On a more serious note:

No doubts, it's just a question of, probably even a short, time until zusa completely breaks. But what should really piss you off is, guess who's going to live comfortably, with enough money and private guards at some nice place in the countryside - while the average american will struggle for survival, getting his family fed and desperately trying to repair the country ...

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 19 2014 20:54 utc | 19

Who owns YouTube? Putin et. al. signing the Crimea document got pulled too.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 19 2014 20:54 utc | 20

kalithea at 156: For no reason at all you assume I haven't.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 19, 2014 3:32:11 PM | 160

Haven't...what exactly?

By the absolute curtness of your response, I'm supposed to just fill in the blanks that you couldn't bring yourself to do or be bothered to express, perhaps that: you've familiarized yourself with the issue, or have actually traveled to that God-foresaken place or even felt compassion for the suffering of Palestinians *eye-roll*?

Considering the passion and effort I put into what I wrote, and the terse and lingering ambiguity you deliberately left me with, I suspect that if you have indeed explored the issue of the suffering and plight of Palestinians under Jewish Zionist rule; it was definitely from the WRONG SIDE.

Your response leaves me COLD. And it sustains my compelling need to let you have a good piece of my mind delivered straight at your self-righteous bulls'-eye.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 19 2014 20:57 utc | 21

Oh and that was my reply to @160 fairleft on the previous News Items thread.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 19 2014 21:00 utc | 22

Mr. P, Yes. Been pissed for a loooong time now just watching the tactics we first used on Native Americans get copied by the Israelis for use on the Palestinians and then get taught to our own police here for "Homeland Security", and now watching what was done to Russia in the 90's being done here, just a bit more slowly. "Pissed off" doesn't really cover it...

Posted by: Nora | Mar 19 2014 21:00 utc | 23

Kalaithea # 21 You go girl!!! I tried too on the last thread -- even asked him to just Google pictures of Gaza --and just for record-keeping purposes, at 1:56:03 on March 19, 2014 he said he'd stopped. Of course, he also accused me of "dancing for the troll", whatever that means...

Posted by: Nora | Mar 19 2014 21:05 utc | 24


And here comes the ugly part:

Back then in the beginning days, was that really only a leader cabal ... or was it maybe possibly your average american who slaughtered, plundered, ridiculed, and abused the indians?

Because if that is so, one might be led to believe that the fairy tale might be wrong and that it wasn't Europes best minds and men to go to the new world.

And one might begin to understand why it was zusa which was chosen as bulldog by the chosen people ... (well, by those of the chosen people who by some strange coincidence at about the same time (re-)started the zionist movement) ...

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 19 2014 21:07 utc | 25

It wasn't AT ALL the best minds who came here -- the Puritans were a bunch of fanatical religious misfits wanting to impose their ideas on all of England; the Virginia colonies were second-sons, alcoholics and gamblers looking to get rich quick, and Georgia started out a convict colony. Yes, different people came here to avoid repression, but the best and the brightest? Uh... mythology. Just like Manifest Destiny (aka Kill More Indians). The fascinating thing, to me, is how the Yalie/New England/NYC banking connection who bankrolled Hitler, formed the OSS (later renamed CIA) and then hired the top Nazis after Russia won WWII managed to connect with the Zionists who bamboozled Truman. But, whatever, they did, and the rest, as they say, is history.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 19 2014 21:12 utc | 26


Thanks for letting me know. It only confirms my suspicions about this character.

Let's me feel confident that my radar for duplicity is still laser-guided!

How can anyone trust the integrity of whatever comes from an inconsistent, duplicitous mind?

Those who profess to be "left" are not always left or consistently "fair", especially when it comes to the issue of Palestinians; and in the case of "fairleft" the left definitely ain't as FAIR as it pretends.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 19 2014 21:24 utc | 27

kalithea, in this country "left" simply means feeling superior to what the Republican Party has become. They're just as easily led by their properly-sanctioned authority figures, and every bit as ignorant of what is really going on as the terrified reactionary dupes they so deeply look down on. Oh, and you're welcome: haven't knowingly bought an Israeli product for forty-odd years now, and hoping maybe these trolls will encourage others to climb on board!

Posted by: Nora | Mar 19 2014 21:32 utc | 28

@Nora #23: I actually heard a Jewish American academic saying in an aside that had nothing to do with the subject of his lecture to a German audience that the reason that Americans like Israel so much is that the Israelis are doing in Israel what the English settlers did in North America: creating a land of bounty out of a barren wilderness.

He was old and retired. I doubt that any American Jews under forty think that way anymore.

Posted by: Demian | Mar 19 2014 21:46 utc | 29

Shocker: Amnesty International notices something

Ukraine: Nationalist MP launches brutal attack against TV executive | Amnesty International

Posted by: Gareth | Mar 19 2014 21:48 utc | 30

@Nora #20: Google now owns YouTube.

What do you mean by "Putin et. al. signing the Crimea document got pulled too". Do you have a link to that? Putin's speech to the Duma is still there. I don't see how Google can pull that, since it has a relationship with RT.

The reason given for the video of the Svoboda goons assaulting the TV executive is "a copyright claim by Аронець Олександр".

Posted by: Demian | Mar 19 2014 21:55 utc | 31

Demian #29 Just like "making the desert bloom", and every bit as false. In fact, Native Americans developed agriculture as early as Iraq or China -- sophisticated agriculture whether using as-yet unreplicable ceramics to make the sludge of the Amazon valley into STILL-FERTILE soil, or on the steep slopes of the Andes, or in North America. And, they developed all sorts of methods -- multi-cropping, companion cropping, crop rotation among others -- to keep their soil fertile and pest-free. It's taken European Americans less than two hundred years to destroy it, removing in some locations more than 12' of topsoil. But they were "savages" and we were "civilized" -- ROT !!!

Posted by: Nora | Mar 19 2014 22:01 utc | 32

I must repeat this here, because this thread is probably where most of the concerned parties will congregate at some point in the day or night.

Here's my message for thomas, fairleft and all manner of duplicitous creatures slithering around here who don't really believe in justice and equality for all and are merely pretending and salivating for their gotcha! moment to release their venom:

Don't hurl your pet rock called anti-Semitism at anyone, when you live in or sustain the glass house Zionism where hate, racism and brutality exist and are indefinitely nurtured.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 19 2014 22:06 utc | 33


b, can we have names at the top yet?

Posted by: Dr. Wellington Yueh | Mar 19 2014 22:08 utc | 34

@32 The Cherokee had something like 65 specific terms for various dental conditions, and we all know the state of English dentistry during the colonial period (and since!).

Posted by: Jon Lester | Mar 19 2014 22:11 utc | 35

"Аронець Олександр" looks ukrainian to me. Did a quick lookup, et voila, he's from Svoboda and seems to have been involved in the scandal. Possibly he's also the one who originally posted that video to youtube.
So that asshole is also a coward and just "brave" when its 4 or 5 nazis against a single civilian.

Funnily, if I now say "just get those assholes some new holes in their heads" I'll be called a right-wing KGB program. I hope Mr. Aronets isn't jewish or else I'll be called anti-semite on top.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 19 2014 22:15 utc | 36

@31 i don't know what kind of relationship YouTube/Google has with their content providers. They have shut down press tv's entire channel multiple times. Same with George galloway.

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 19 2014 22:38 utc | 37

@36 i was looking into that too.. name translates as Alexander Aronec.. he is the one that claimed copyright infringement to youboob.. i don't know if this is the same guy, but 9 hours ago he posted this.. i don't know the language, so am unable to translate..

Posted by: james | Mar 19 2014 22:50 utc | 38

wasn't my intent to screw up the page!

Posted by: james | Mar 19 2014 22:55 utc | 39

[I posted this on the old thread, I'm reposting here - sorry, all]

(in general, but @Mr Pragma in particular)

as others have pointed out, the context in which the Crimea annexation counts a lot

a Nato-Nazi coup in Kiev, gangs roaming around, Us gloating convinced they "won", fooled Russia (and the EU), taken a new pawn into Nato ...

all of a sudden, Kerry talks with Lavrov about constitutional reform and neutrality for Ukraine

what caused the turn-about? I think Crimea sent the right message; the west upped the ant, and Russia responded in kind; I think it didn't have a choice - either that, or declare defeat; the people in Crimea, Russia, the world over instinctively perceive this as a defeat of western colonialism

maybe the real issue when judging Putin's action, is whether the situation was about to deteriorate for western forces and puppets; I think not; Ukraine seemed about to be taken over by increasingly aggressive western thugs, but then Crimea's annexation showed Russia's determination to fight over Ukraine, causing a change of mind of the Usa and EU

Posted by: claudio | Mar 19 2014 22:57 utc | 40

@james: I think that says that Аронець Олександр was in the Ukraine what in the US is called Attorney General. (I don't know Ukrainian, but I know Russian, so I can guess at some Ukrainian text means. It's like German and Dutch.)

Posted by: Demian | Mar 19 2014 23:02 utc | 41

@demian - that sounds plausible except the picture on the translated page is the same as the pic of him on the video from 9 hours ago.. here is the data in english on the same page."Alexander R. Aronets (* 23 April 1988 , the city of Coloma , Ivano-Frankivsk region ) - Ukrainian public and political figure, member of the NGO "Lustration", responsible for public relations in the Kyiv City Organization of Ukrainian Union "Svoboda " . A candidate for deputy to the Kiev regional council in the local elections of 2010. Candidates for deputies of Ukraine for the elections in 2012. Positions itself as a nationalist .

In 2010 he graduated from the Law School of the National University of "Kyiv-Mohyla Academy" .

In 2009 he began an active social work. He took an active part in the Ukrainian language Ukrainian protection action in which in Kyiv ukrainian over hundreds of catering facilities and other public facilities, including a restaurant chain "Reprise" and a network of shops "Megamarket."

March 2009 Member of the All-Ukrainian Union "Freedom" . Active participant of many nationwide protests. In particular, for participating in a protest against the visit of Patriarch Kirill of the Russian, was illegally detained by the police.

The author site "Ukrainian Truth" .

Alexander Aronets carried live coverage of Yevromaydanu in Kiev.

Personal Channel: Ustream / Aronets live

Posted by: james | Mar 19 2014 23:08 utc | 42

I wanted to add: Crimea revealed the weakness of Kiev's bullies, and of their western sponsors;
so it encouraged disobedience by the Ukraine military and aviation and it probably set the ground for substantial resistance by the people;

it changed the whole political landscape;
so I'd say Putin's action was effective and also well managed - not a bullet was fired, after all;

so I agree with Pragma and somebody over certain legal principles (ask China, for example! or Spain, regarding Kosovo!);

but the problem,ultimately, lies in the fact that the west only recognizes the language of force;
so Putin had to display force to have his message heard; but he didn't start the whole game, so I'd call it self-defense;
Crimea would have been at risk of all sorts of provocations if Russia hadn't accepted its request

Posted by: claudio | Mar 19 2014 23:12 utc | 43

WTF? There is no need to post Google translation URLs, people can use the Google translation program themselves. Or if it's not too long, quote the translation. But if you must post a long URL, use a condenser like Tiny URL.

It's common on Youtube for owners of videos to have copies posted by others pulled. These Bandera wannabees want to frighten Ukrainians into compliance, but their western handlers don't want that reality reaching the general public in the west. So when these intimidation videos reach a wider than intended audience, they have them pulled by Youtube. Ukraine is in lockdown mode media wise. Very limited in what gets in, and due to the language differences, and western media actively working to hide the reality, very little of what is really going on there is reaching the west. Not Russia, though.

Posted by: scalawag | Mar 19 2014 23:35 utc | 44

Oh fergawdsakes, The crisis around Ukraine "is providential from the point of view of NATO," said Nick Witney of the European Council on Foreign Relations. "It gives it a new lease on life."

Lord, are they stupid.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 19 2014 23:56 utc | 45

@scalawag: no need to post a long url. The syntax for links is given in the region where you post a comment.

I agree that there has been an almost complete Western news blackout of what is happening in the streets of Kiev, as opposed to Crimea.

The American military appears to be drawing the correct conclusions from Crimea:

Pentagon officials are beginning to assess the military “lessons learned.” The bottom line is that Russia’s move into Crimea was a study in the speedy deployment of special operations forces to achieve a limited objective.

“What has been most striking to me so far has been the apparent levels of discipline, training and cooperation among the Russian forces,” noted Paul Saunders, executive director of the Center for the National Interest, in an interview this week with the military blog War on the Rocks. [...]

Putin [...] showed a notable willingness to take risks. So far, there has been almost no bloodshed between Russians and Ukrainians, but Putin couldn’t have known this when he began. That’s why the precision and discipline of Russian forces were crucial. Their professionalism reduced the risk of an incident that could have spiraled out of control.

Posted by: Demian | Mar 20 2014 0:08 utc | 46

@45 That video is still on the BBC....surprisingly...

Posted by: dh | Mar 20 2014 0:24 utc | 47

@Demian #31
The reason given for the video of the Svoboda goons assaulting the TV executive is "a copyright claim by Аронець Олександр".

@james #39
Here is the translated page on the same fellow who has claimed copyright infringement.

Yes, Alexander Aronets (Олександр Аронець) is a lawyer and responsible for public relations for Svaboda in Kiev. He is also an editor for Ukrainian Pravda. He has an article in the Ukrainian language Wikipedia: Аронець Олександр Романович

The broken HTML spoiled the page. I saved it off-line and edited away the comment to read it.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Mar 20 2014 0:47 utc | 48

well, if it is any consolation - i won't do that again!
i thought b comes here every so often and can delete a
post that ruins reading the page. i guess he hasn
t showed up yet..

Posted by: james | Mar 20 2014 0:56 utc | 49

Here's another link to the Svoboda thug video, which cowardly, in-the-tank, corporate you tube has taken down

Posted by: Solerso | Mar 20 2014 0:59 utc | 50

Solerso, the story at that link is informative.

This is a sensational news story! I'm sure that MSNBC and CNN are going to get right on it (there's a video!) and the NY Times and Wash Post will front page it.

(On a serious note, I wonder if the German press is covering this, given Germany's history and Merkel's embrace of these people.)

Posted by: Demian | Mar 20 2014 1:20 utc | 51

@Kalithea @ 27

If this is the same fairleft, who is burning up the these pages so frequently, as the "fairleft" who hangs out at firedoglake, then you can add gross hypocracy to your charges - that "fairleft" often posts "diaries" at FDL (a garden-variety liberal site), which any registered user there can , and censors the comments heavily - refuses to publish comments, even completely innocuous one like "good job" or "thanks" or "what time was that"...from user ID's that have been, presumably, judged to be of no use to him and anathemized. That's the kind of crap you expect from fake-left, liberal cookie-pushers.

Posted by: Solerso | Mar 20 2014 1:23 utc | 52

After I posted that, I remembered that there are foreign editions of Google News.

Angriff auf Fernsehchef in der Ukraine: Keine reinen Demokraten

Posted by: Demian | Mar 20 2014 1:25 utc | 53

NATO Weighs Assistance for Ukraine to Dissuade Further Moves by Moscow

Posted by: Tom Murphy | Mar 20 2014 2:08 utc | 54

@53 Solerso

Lol, why am I not surprised? Anyway, thanks for the info and your previous link. I wish the mainstream would take a 5-minute break from their wall-to-wall coverage of the mystery plane and air that video-with a Breaking News! alert. That would be enough to wake them up to see where there hard-earned money's being invested. But most Americans never get to see the truth.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 20 2014 3:39 utc | 55

kalithea at 21: You are supposed to present evidence of your characterization of me. Neither you nor Pragma nor Nora has. Accusing Mr. "Victoria Jewland" Pragma of being an anti-semite is evidence only that ... I think Mr Pragma is an anti-semite.

And yes, my responses to you will be short. Unlike you, I don't want to take up space here fighting trolls.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 20 2014 3:51 utc | 56


Posted by: scalawag | Mar 20 2014 4:02 utc | 57

It's kind of interesting that the Israeli press seems to see this more objectively than the US or "European" press:

It is still far from clear whether the governments of Britain and Germany, Italy and France, are capable of contemplating losing billions from placing real sanctions on Russia, freezing the oligarchs’ assets, tearing up contracts and cutting themselves off from the natural gas pipeline. Obama certainly can’t force them to do so. But even if they surprise themselves by coming up with such sanctions, Putin has cut off his own retreat route. He can’t cross back over his own red lines.

Posted by: Demian | Mar 20 2014 4:51 utc | 58

Too bad, fairleft, that you can't control or delete posts here.

Don't worry, your zionist enforcer friend is working at it.
But don't hold your breath.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 20 2014 6:27 utc | 59

Solerso at 53: That's a bizarre and obviously false accusation, and all to defend the anti-semite Mr "Victoria Jewland" Pragma. Of course users at myfiredoglake can't censor comments.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 20 2014 6:38 utc | 60

Remember the gay activist, kurchich (or sth. like that) which abused an interview on RussiaToday to spread his paederast lies and dirt against
Russia? Also remember kagan, mrs. jewland husband, and kristol, the other extremist neo-con (read: zionist)?

Well it turns out that kagan and kristol, the "pnac" guys, have created a new "think tank" (read: zionist crime design and management center)
named fpi.

And guess who's a senior fellow at the zionist fpi. Right, kircic (or whatever).

To add some cream to the cake the RT public resigning bitch has been instigated by kucirc who twittered a "freedom" selfie with the bitch.

And no, that' not coincidence. kricuch actually conducts a crusade against RT. Understandably he and his neocon masters are not at all pleased
by the fact that more and more zamerican bio-bots turn away from their "media" and prefer getting some real new on RT.

What's next? The neocons saving on clothes and sending out remote poop?

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 20 2014 6:40 utc | 61

The Chinese government's take:

Some Western countries were quick to back the independence referendum held in the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija between Sept. 26 and 30, 1991; now they voice their objections to the referendum in the Crimea. In the past they have advocated that human rights – for example the right to self-determination - take precedence over sovereignty; now they claim that the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine are paramount. Such double standards are rooted in the fact that in the final analysis, the values of the western powers are entirely determined by their own self-interest.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 20 2014 6:53 utc | 62

63) That is a fair summary of the way international law is handled.

I would like to add that the failed state of "Kosovo" was not in the interest of Europe. It was the end result of blowing up the Soviet Union in 1991.
"Ukraine" is not in the interest of Europe either - or the US. It is the result of the US' inability of consistent foreign policy.
If Russia gets alienated they will turn to China thereby providing China with the resources they urgently need.

The pivot was supposed to work the other way round.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 20 2014 7:14 utc | 63

while the new russia is building bridges to people:
NOVO-OGARYOVO, March 19 (RIA Novosti) – Russian President Vladimir Putin told the Russian government on Wednesday to start preparations for the construction of a bridge linking the southern Russian Krasnodar Territory directly with Crimea.

the new ukraine regime is seeking to destroy them;
Violent Video: Ukraine TV Boss Beaten Up, Forced To Resign By Far-Right Svoboda MPs

Any normal person would no whats good and which to support... but the politicians of the 'international community' are not normal!

Posted by: brian | Mar 20 2014 7:20 utc | 64

russia SHOULD turn to china no matter what....china shuld not be a second option
dont assume the US or EU are the ones to make relations with..they are too corrupt

Posted by: brian | Mar 20 2014 7:23 utc | 65

'Yes, Alexander Aronets (Олександр Аронець) is a lawyer and responsible for public relations for Svaboda in Kiev.'

Svoboda needs good PR! Pravy Sektor tho is beyond any PR makeover....they are the mad dog that should be putdown

Posted by: brian | Mar 20 2014 7:25 utc | 66

Posted by: Nora | Mar 19, 2014 7:56:32 PM | 46

no not stupid....opportunistic!

Posted by: brian | Mar 20 2014 7:26 utc | 67

'The "western" para-government organization Amnesty International is concerned and wants an investigation. Good luck with that.'

amnesty is only 'concerned' about atrocites committed by henchmen of leaves the wailing cries of calls for ICC to enemies of empire when they spill their tea

Posted by: brian | Mar 20 2014 7:35 utc | 68

I know this is close to the end of the thread, but I wanted to make a slight comment on the use of the phrase 'bad guys' in the Foreign Policy piece. The 'Valley Speak' speaks volumes about the utter mediocrity of the American establishment.
To whom do they think they are speaking? Each other?

Posted by: Knut | Mar 20 2014 7:39 utc | 69

German opionion polls - politicians and media against the people
(Der Spiegel - in German)- they don't give the numbers, they must be devastating.

Western MSM has lost its power to dominate opinion.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 20 2014 8:04 utc | 70

The first passports have been handed out to the new Russian citizens in Crimea on Wednesday, the head of the Federal Migration Service said.

The treaty of Crimea's accession to Russia "was signed yesterday… And all, who appealed to the Federal Migration Service in the Crimea, will receive their passports. This work has started. Some of the passports were issued today,” said Konstantin Romodanovsky, the head of the Federal Migration Service, as cited by Itar-Tass news agency.

Posted by: brian | Mar 20 2014 8:12 utc | 71

Eurointelligence blog has sardonic observations re: sanctions--

How united are we on sanctions?

•Frank-Walter Steinmeier threatens material economic sanctions – not over the Crimea but in case Vladimir Putin occupies the eastern Ukraine;
•the Wall Street Journal writes that there are signs of division in the European response – the French want to target Russian money in London while the British want sanctions to start with French defence contracts;
•Angela Merkel is reported to favour a political solution through dialogue as the political climate in Germany is becoming more difficult;
•Wolfgang Munchau writes in his Spiegel column that the EU is not ready for material and sustained sanctions beyond the token gestures agreed so far – real sanctions would require a burden-sharing agreement;

Posted by: okie farmer | Mar 20 2014 8:20 utc | 72

Liz Wahl, a classic middle-class striver (emphasis added), from an investigative report on how neocon sleaze managed her on-air resignation from RT:

Each of [the four] who knew her described her as apolitical.

“She’s never had a political bone in her body,” said one RT employee.

“Liz has always been apolitical and without any clear principles,” said another. “She didn’t talk about any politics outside of work.”

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 20 2014 10:10 utc | 73


Czech Government is ready to consider the issue of relocating a group of Volyn Czechs from Ukraine – Informs Czech CTK news agency referring to the statement made by the Czech Parliament member Jan Gamachek.

This information was posted by RIA Novosti

“Mr. Prime Minister (of Czech Republic – Boguslav Sobotka) is ready to assign the Minister of Interior and probably the Foreign Minister to address this issue and prepare a draft of a specific resolution, which would enable Czech Republic to help our compatriots in Ukraine.” – Gamachek told the journalists after meeting the Head of Volyn Czechs Society from Zhytomir region, Ms. Emma Snidevich.

The Czech Parliament Deputy Chamber Speaker in Praha discussed the situation with Snidevich and talked about the Czech minority in Ukraine as well as the developments of the political and economic situation in Ukraine. The Head of Volyn Czechs Society told that about 40 Volyn Czech families have already officially applied to the Czech government with a request for repatriation. According to Snidevich the criminal situation in Ukraine has considerably worsened during recent weeks.

“We are fearing for our lives, our families and the lives of our sons. The situation is getting worse every day.” – she said. “Something happens every day, and there is no one we can turn to. Criminals come to us saying that they are from self-defense, and the police are doing nothing,” – told us the Head of Volyn Czechs Society. About 20 thousands of ethnic Czechs live in Ukraine now according to CTK.

Posted by: brian | Mar 20 2014 12:51 utc | 74


Czech Republic will provide assistance in repatriation of compatriots residing in Ukraine
20.03.2014 12:00 In Ukraine, Nord, Politic, regions, Society, West

According to the Czech news agency CTK with the reference to the chair of the Parliament of Czech Republic Jan Hamáček, Czech government plans to assist in repatriation of Czechs, residing at the territory of Ukraine.

According to him, by the order of the premiere of the state Bohuslav Sobotka a draft plan of return of “Ukrainian” Czechs to their ethnic homeland will be prepared in the nearest time.

“Mr. Prime Minister is ready to instruct the Minister of the Internal Affairs and, perhaps, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, to take over this issue and to prepare a draft of the specific decision in order that Czech Republic could help our compatriots in Ukraine,” Jan Hamáček informed.

The government of the Czech Republic made such a decision after the appeal of the chairwoman of the Society of Volhynia Czechs in Zhitomir region of Ukraine Emma Snidevich, who declared the desire of Volhynia Czechs to return to their historic homeland. Currently almost 40 families formally appealed the government of Czech Republic with the request of repatriation.

“We are afraid for our lives, our families, our sons. The situation is worsening every day. Every day something is happening, we have no one to address. There are bandits, who say “we are from self-defense,” the police does nothing,” Snidevich said.

Posted by: vbo | Mar 20 2014 13:25 utc | 75

Robert Parry

The Ukraine crisis – in part stirred up by U.S. neocons –
has damaged prospects for peace not only on Russia’s borders
but in two Middle East hotspots, Syria and Iran,
which may have been exactly the point

Posted by: somebody | Mar 20 2014 14:25 utc | 76

William Hague deceived House of Commons over Ukraine
By David Morrison

Foreign Minister William Hague deceived the House of Commons about the legitimacy of the new regime in Ukraine in a statement on 4 March 2014. He led the House to believe that the Ukrainian parliament, the Verkhovna Rada, had removed President Yanukovich from power on 22 February 2014 in accordance with the Ukrainian constitution and that therefore 'it is wrong to question the legitimacy of the new authorities'.

It is simply untrue that the Rada followed the procedure laid down in the Ukrainian constitution to impeach and remove a president from power.

This procedure, laid down in Article 111 of the constitution (see text below), is not unlike that required for the impeachment and removal from power of a US president, which could take months.

Thus, Article 111 obliges the Rada to establish a special investigatory commission to formulate charges against the president, seek evidence to justify the charges and come to conclusions about the president’s guilt for the Rada to consider.

Prior to a final vote to remove a president from power, it requires

(a) the Constitutional Court of Ukraine to review the case and certify that the constitutional procedure of investigation and consideration has been followed, and
(b) the Supreme Court of Ukraine must certify that the acts of which the President is accused are worthy of impeachment.

The Rada didn’t follow this procedure at all. No investigatory commission was established and the Courts were not involved. On 22 February 2014, the Rada simply passed a bill removing President Yanukovych from office.

Furthermore, the bill wasn’t even supported by three quarters of the members of the Rada, as required by Article 111 for the removal of a president from office – it was supported by 328 members, when it required 338 (since the Rada has 450 members).

Justifying UK support for the new regime in Kiev in the House of Commons on 4 March 2014, William Hague said:

“Former President Yanukovych left his post and then left the country, and the decisions on replacing him with an acting President were made by the Rada, the Ukrainian Parliament, by the very large majorities required under the constitution, including with the support of members of former President Yanukovych’s party, the Party of Regions, so it is wrong to question the legitimacy of the new authorities.”

That is a calculated deception of the House of Commons, designed to give the impression that the procedure prescribed in the Ukrainian constitution for the removal of a president from office had been followed, when it hadn’t.

Annex: Article 111 of the Ukrainian Constitution

The President of Ukraine may be removed from office by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine by the procedure of impeachment, in the event that he or she commits state treason or other crime.

The issue of the removal of the President of Ukraine from office by the procedure of impeachment is initiated by the majority of the constitutional composition of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.

To conduct the investigation, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine establishes a special temporary investigatory commission whose composition includes a special procurator and special investigators.

The conclusions and proposals of the temporary investigatory commission are considered at a meeting of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.

For cause, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine, by no less than two-thirds of its constitutional composition, adopts a decision on the accusation of the President of Ukraine.

The decision on the removal of the President of Ukraine from office by the procedure of impeachment is adopted by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine by no less than three-quarters of its constitutional composition, after the review of the case by the Constitutional Court of Ukraine and the receipt of its opinion on the observance of the constitutional procedure of investigation and consideration of the case of impeachment, and the receipt of the opinion of the Supreme Court of Ukraine to the effect that the acts, of which the President of Ukraine is accused, contain elements of state treason or other crime.

Posted by: brian | Mar 20 2014 15:00 utc | 77

Good for CounterPunch: they've got Putin's whole speech! It's absolutely terrific -- if you haven't heard or read it, you should:

Posted by: Nora | Mar 20 2014 15:29 utc | 78

So fairleft @57 is pulling me back in, and I’m obliging.

I have a keen intuition and it's been reinforced by others’ comments and the way yourush to judge and slander others.

You can't blame Mr. Pragma for resisting Zionist manipulation. I distinguish between a Zionist and a Jew. But, and this is for everyone who does as I do: it's kinda disingenuous, don't you think? I’ll explain why later. I always call things as I see them even when I'm guilty of playing the game along with everyone else because of societal capitulation to pretense for the sake of civilitywhen the truth is: we’re being muzzled pure and simple from expressing righteous indignation against those who not only silence us but do so to cover inhumane and criminal behavior!

Cause you gotta admit, Israel has the largest population of Jews that are 99% Zionist and the U.S. comes in 2nd ergo irrefutable proof most Jews are Zionist, and I haven't even considered the Zionists in Britain, Canada and France!

Okay, so it's a proven fact that most Jews support and sustain Zionism which is in fact a glass house because a lot of shit goes on there IN PLAIN VIEW and it's beyond indefensible; it’s an outrage against human decency.: theft, ethnic cleansing, slaughter of men, women and children, arrest and abuse of children, deprivation of goods and water, settlers beating up Palestinian farmers and destroying their crops and orchards and repetitive weekly/monthly slaughter and ethnic cleansing behind a concrete wall that encroaches on Palestinian land and rampant racism. Phew! That's a boatload of criminal shit!

So if, most Jews, who are Zionists, support the shit that goes on in this glass house in plain view and collude with governments to sustain this glass house of torture in plain view, why should you or I or anyone judge and throw stones at Mr. Pragma for ridiculing indeed SHAMING Zionists - who in fact are most Jews as is a proven fact. Isn’t it in fact our duty to shame and condemn those who commit and indefinitely enable injustice ANYWHERE without exception?

The way I see it is, Mr. Pragma's not pulling any punches; he's shaming and exposing Zionism’s nasty game. So when I see someone rush to judgment and hurl that stone at him,in the context of this particular political discussion or any political discussion, because it’s not like Pragma’s ridiculing someone on the street, I'm led to think – this fairlift or Thomas character is a Zionist enabler; this is someone who in some small or bigger way contributes to the denial or obstruction of justice by silencing others’ rightful indignation and I'm going to expose that duplicity!

Now again I ask, who is responsible for this changing tide of criticism against Zionists and let's drop the charade- against so many Jews who embrace Zionism? Is it individuals who fail to distinguish between Zionist and Jew? Who got themselves into this mess supporting crimes against people in a glass house called Israel in plain sight with total impunity?

Zionists shouldn't be allowed to go around shouting, you can't criticize or condemn us – lalala…we're Jews! If Zionists use the fact that they're Jews to be able to enable and/or commit crimes with impunity, then they've opened a pandora's box and made everyone in their tribe vulnerable to condemnation and even ridicule.

It's like the defendant getting on the stand; he forfeits certain protection: his right to remain silent and he makes himself fair game to the prosecution. If Zionists use the excuse that they're Jewish, i.e. anti-Semitism protection, as a cover for silencing criticism against the crimes of Zionism; then they too forfeit the right to be protected from criticism AS JEWS for themselves and all Jews because they've corrupted the legal intent of that protection ergo they make themselves and their entire tribe vulnerable as a direct consequence of corrupting the integrity of whatever protection they have legally or socially.

You cannot use the excuse of protection of the law to indefinitely break the law. The latter nullifies the former.

So for all these reasons, fairleft and Thomas and other forms of duplicitous slithery creature, you have no case against Pragma and I and all here would be right to assume that your intent is ill-founded and even malicious.


Posted by: kalithea | Mar 20 2014 16:43 utc | 79

@79- kalithea - i agree. for the record, there are a number of jewish people who are also opposed to zionism. i believe i shared phil mondoweiss's website here in the past week.. it is a good place to get an education on much of this.

Posted by: james | Mar 20 2014 19:03 utc | 80

It's shocking, indeed, that fascists have come into a European government, with the encouragement of US and Western European leaders. Also shocking is the amount of nonsense that's been peddled about the Ukrainian uprising, and what's at stake. See the very detailed analysis at Charge of the Right Brigade:Ukraine and the Dynamics of Capitalist Insurrection

Posted by: The Polemicist | Mar 20 2014 20:07 utc | 81

Link from last comment: Charge of the Right Brigade:Ukraine and the Dynamics of Capitalist Insurrection

Posted by: The Polemicist | Mar 20 2014 20:08 utc | 82


Thank you, yes, I often comment there and am appreciative of that site and the awareness it inspires, although, I often feel that it fails to push the envelope far enough, and when I try to do so, because it's absolutely necessary for ending this situation - I GET CENSORED. Let me put it this way, there is only one Jew I can think of (and certainly there might be others) that is being totally frank when it comes to the depth of Jewish responsibility for the enduring crimes of Zionism: G. Atzmon.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 20 2014 20:30 utc | 83

kalithea at 79: Yes, most Jews are Zionists. So what? Your problem is with Zionists. So, criticize them. Why is that so difficult? It simply doesn't make sense to criticize Jews when your problem is with Zionists. So, reasonable people are suspicious of the real motives of people who criticize Jews when the thing that they say is bothering them is Zionism.

See how short and sweet a post can be when it has something easy to do? Dismissed.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 21 2014 0:21 utc | 84

"But the fascists do need to make their intimidation campaign public because such reenforces the intimidation":
This is indeed typical of the way they proceed. In Syria, the fundamentalists (a local brand of fascism) proudly post on Youtube and other social networks their achievements (massacres, executions, etc). The contras (under the leadership of the US) did the same in Nicaragua in the 1980s.
This is also part of an ethnic cleansing strategy: if you want people to leave an area, you have to do some spectacular massacre and publicize it to scare the shit out of them. This is the strategy followed by this other brand of fascists called the zionists, in 1948 and 1967 in Palestine. And they were pretty effective at it: they managed to empty an entire country of its inhabitants!

Posted by: MC | Mar 21 2014 15:58 utc | 85

Posted by: MC | Mar 21, 2014 11:58:50 AM | 85

Yes, and the fascists are the ones mad enough to go to war with Russia

Michał Baranowski ‏@M_Baranowski 22m

#Zoellick suggest that if Ukraine decides to fight, US will need to consider military assistance, at least by providing arms #BrusselsForum

That is what they have been groomed for.

The German government has been supporting this - Germans should ask them about it.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 21 2014 16:10 utc | 86

86) Plus they form an alliance with liberals - emphasizing the autocratic, undemocratic traits of Russia whilst playing down the terrorist side of their allies.

It is straight from the Middle East cookbook.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 21 2014 16:22 utc | 87

On this Jews and Zionists business: both words, 'Jew' and 'Zionist', are philosophically problematic to the n'th degree. 'Jew' has no universally agreed definition at all, and 'Zionist', for the purposes of the comparison, should be taken in a much broader, trans-historical sense, not as the formal entity whose figurehead was the philistine Herzl, but something as old as 'the Jews', namely their national, territorial urge and the further promise of eventual world leadership (to put it politely) in a religion which continually reinforces this 'hope'.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Mar 21 2014 16:46 utc | 88

87) more on Ukraine

Mark Sleboda ‏@MarkSleboda1 3h

@markmackinnon @ninaivanovna (2/2) Asking ethnicity and political affiliation, commandeering apts for "heroes of the revolution".

Mark Sleboda ‏@MarkSleboda1 3h

@markmackinnon @ninaivanovna My sister-in-law and her family fled Kiev to Crimea b/c of Right Sector goon squads going door 2 door. (1./2)

Sure, they will blame Russia for the civil war.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 21 2014 17:02 utc | 89

From Robert Parry re: Israel/Ukraine

In short, payback for Putin interfering with plans to bomb Syria and eventually Iran, and kill the cooperation between Putin & Obama on those issues. Not exactly breaking news here, but it's a good piece that gets into the details a little bit. Hell hath no fury like a neocon's blood-lust scorned.

More on Zionists, this is really excellent-

The author also penned a book concerning the creation of Israel- 'Against Our Better Judgment'. Going by the article I'm guessing it's pretty good. Allison Weir is her name.

Posted by: colinjames | Mar 22 2014 15:51 utc | 90

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