Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 14, 2014
Ukraine: A State Falling Apart?

A British lecturer, Paul Vickers, who (allegedly) has been living in Ivano-Frankivsk, a city in west Ukraine with some 200,000 inhabitants, for two plus years, writes about a recent march by the Right Sector fascists there and the general local news.

We find mob rule by competing militia, heavy pressure on politicians and bureaucrats and threats of “lustration” which means that anyone favoring the wrong parties will be thrown out of their public jobs. We remember how well things went in after de-baathification and after all the professional administrators and security folks were pushed from their jobs in Iraq.

This report states that initially today there were some fifty men all from Self-Defence (it also has better photos than me) blocking the street, while Right Sector also turned up in the early afternoon in smallish numbers before the big march around 16:00. Speaking to the press, the Self-Defence issued a statement stating that they do not want to have in a position of authority in the police a man who refuses for now to undergo lustration, i.e. a check on his past. Shortly afterwards, the new head of the regional administration agreed to make all administration workers undergo lustration and barred any ex-Party of Regions figures from taking up posts. Then a little bit later, the new head of the regional administration found that his office had been blockaded by Self-Defence and ‘local businessmen’, according to this report. Together they made a series of demands, including cancellation of certain taxes on wealth and various aspects of certification for motor vehicles and business-related issues. There was ‘Tax Maidan‘ in November 2010 which saw the small-and-medium-sized business community protest against a new tax code, so this protest in Ivano-Frankivsk could be seen in that context.

However, the approach to getting your point across seems very much in the spirit of the post-revolutionary times where there is an evident degree of mob rule and rule by force. The problem is somewhat compounded by the local press which happily write that these activists speak, as the above-linked report wrote, ‘in the name of the city community’, becoming a local echo of Right Sector’s claims to speak ‘for the Ukrainian people’. An ex-student I encountered today outside the police HQ as she passed by from university on her way home said to me that “they don’t speak for us”, referring to Right Sector. While the issue of the police head was not something she had contemplated, she expressed great concern with the way local democracy was functioning. There is a clear contrast with the rather impressive local council meeting of 26 November 2013 when the still-functioning council took important decisions and voted in the open air, in front of a more representative group of the local community. However, now there is clearly a growing vacuum in local power structures, it seems that it is possible to seek to impose by force or by threats – the blockaders of the regional governor’s office have threatened to block major road routes in Ivano-Frankivsk region on Friday if their demands are not heard – decisions upon a weak, nascent administration.

This all shows a dangerous development. A state that now lacks the will and capacity, and soon also the money, to assert itself against unwieldy minorities. When (not if) this state falls apart, the “west” would itself lucky if Russa were to take responsible for the eastern parts.

Comments

brb @97: I was referring to the possibility that Petri might have been deliberately misleading. In fact I think everyone is probably on the same page here, including you and the author of the 1987 book: there was a famine that killed millions. The famine was not a deliberate genocide against Ukrainians, since it indiscriminately killed millions of many ethnicities all across the Soviet Union’s breadbasket.
The only area where we may disagree is whether or not Stalin knew he was going to kill millions through some of his specific actions.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 15 2014 4:21 utc | 101

Not at all bright …
.
The lady that doesn’t remember Kosovo as an illegal act by NATO in violation of International Law.

Her interview at CNN, the US propaganda broadcaster on cable network
The U.S. also pushed NATO – the Cold War-era military alliance – further, and closer to Russia’s border.
“I know there are those who think that that was a mistake,” she said. “They’ve just misunderstood from the very beginning.”
I went to talk to Yeltsin about this. And I said this is what we’re doing. And he said, ‘We’re a new Russia.’ And I said, ‘This is a new NATO. It is not against you. And you can ultimately be a member of NATO.’”
“They are using this ‘Oh, woe is me,’ in order to garner sympathy, and have some kind of a recreating something that they destroyed themselves.”

Not to worry Vladimir Putin, this is a new NATO, a new Democrat in the White House. Let’s not talk about history: Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Syria and Guantanamo Bay, Bagram detention center, drone strikes in Pakistan and Yemen or the new NSA. Russia, you are mistaken!

Posted by: Oui | Mar 15 2014 4:21 utc | 102

I tried to add this comment early on as #6, but it repeatedly failed. Now I have split-up post and have added a link to my post on another blog

More about Vasyl Abramiv [see page 18-19]
Ivano-Frankivsk City Council awards honorary citizen titles to Bandera and Shukhevych – May 2010

Posted by: Oui | Mar 15 2014 4:35 utc | 103

@Oui – #102 :

Transcript: Secretary of State Albright on Yeltsin Resignation
Albright said she had “a certain sense of sadness about Yeltsin’s leaving because he has had a terrific record in really moving Russia from a communist state to a democratic new one with a constitutional system, and he’s done a great job. We are looking forward to working with Acting President Putin.”
… what is interesting here is the continuity and transparency. I was just trying to analyze my own feelings this morning when I heard about this, and there is a certain sense of sadness about Yeltsin’s leaving because he has had a terrific record in really moving Russia from a communist state to a democratic new one with a constitutional system, and he’s done a great job. We are looking forward to working with Acting President Putin.

Posted by: Oui | Mar 15 2014 4:49 utc | 104

@82
Mr. Pragma, I must say that I often get a real kick and a good laugh reading your posts! I enjoy reading others as well but how matter-of-fact and boring it would be without you around here.
Well, let me detail some parts of bevins “nothing”:
I believe you left a couple out (and no doubt there might be more!):
zusa was kicked out of Iraq as well and has moved closer to Iran than it’s ever been in the past 30 years.
zusa’s consulate in Benghazi was attacked by Ansar-al-Sharia resulting in the deaths and injuries of diplomats, staff and CIA. In addition, Ansar-al-Sharia a new bitter enemy of zusa and terrorist group came into being with members from several rebel brigades and Salafist militia that were fighting in a civil war against Gaddafi, and are better armed than ever to attack zusa interests again.
But these are only losses in the past 15 years and the list might still be incomplete.
But I must admit that bevin’s description of Obama was very good.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 15 2014 5:43 utc | 105

letter to swedish embassy on FM statement concerning Ukraine and what it ignores
embassy email: ambassaden.kiev@gov.se
Hello Swedish embassy
Your FM has made this statement on the crisis in Ukraine, whereby a neonazi govt for first time since 1945 has been put into power in europe:
On March 14th, Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt made a statement in the Swedish parliament on the current state of affairs in Ukraine
http://www.swedenabroad.com/en-GB/Embassies/Kyiv/Current-affairs/News/Foreign-Minister-Bildts-statement-on-Ukraine-sys/
it condemns russia for its natural national security concerns, while justifying a coup d’etat by fascists elements, a reading of it shows FM cant be very familiar with the ‘current state of affairs’ in Ukraine.
here is what FM Bildt ignores:
1. the presence of fascists in the Euromaidan,,,indeed leading it. Svoboda and Pravy Sektor, the latter currently terrorising people in east ukraine.
Svoboda was condemned BY the EU in 2012:
Svoboda was condemned in an official resolution voted and adopted by the European Parliament. The document, titled “European Parliament of 13 December, 2012 on the Situation in Ukraine,” is available online.
In section 8 of the resolution, the EU’s legislative body declares itself “concerned about the rising nationalistic sentiment in Ukraine, expressed in support for the Svoboda party, which, as a result, is one of the two new parties to enter the Verkhovna Rada,” the Ukrainian parliament.
Stating that “racist, anti-Semitic, and xenophobic views go against the EU’s fundamental values,” the European Parliament “therefore appeals to pro-democratic parties in the Verkhovna Rada not to associate with, endorse, or form coalitions with this party.”
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/03/12/eupa-m12.html
they are now in power:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/whos-who-in-ukraines-new-semi-fascist-government-meet-the-people-the-u-s-and-eu-are-supporting/5372422
Read about the neo-nazis intimidating the Central Election Commission in order to secure rule and personnel changes in order to favor the ultra-right in the forthcoming elections. Thug Aleksandr Shevchenko informed the CEC that armed activists will remain in CEC offices in order to make certain that the election is not rigged against the neo-nazis. What he means, of course, is the armed thugs will make sure the neo-nazis win. If the neo-nazis don’t win, the chances are high that they will take power regardless.
Members of President Yanukovich’s ruling party, the Party of Regions, have been shot, had arrest warrants issued for them, have experienced home invasions and physical threats, and are resigning in droves in hopes of saving the lives of themselves and their families. The prosecutor’s office in the Volyn region (western Ukraine) has been ordered by ultra-nationalists to resign en masse
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/02/26/ukrainian-neo-nazis-declare-power-comes-barrels-guns/
2. Bildts article mentions snipers,implies they were government..ISnt he aware of the Ashton leaks? where clearly the snipers work for the Maidan insurgency, a classic color revolution tactic
http://rt.com/news/ashton-maidan-snipers-estonia-946/
Oleksandr Yakymenko, the former head of Ukraine’s Security Service, claimed this week in an interview with TV channel Rossiya that pro-Maidan (pro-Western) organizers were the ones behind the Feb. 20 shootings.
Yakymenko said the shots came from Kyiv’s Philharmonic Hall. That particular building was overseen by the Fatherland Party’s deputy Andriy Parubiy, known unofficially as the “commander of Maidan.” After President Viktor Yanukovych fled Ukraine, Parubiy assumed the post of Secretary of the National Security and Defense Council for the interim Ukrainian government.
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/europe/140313/who-were-the-maidan-snipers-ukraine-security-head
So given these issues,how can FM BIldt claim the new kiev regime is legitimate? or that any good govt can be formed in free and fair elections, when Praevy sektor has been terrorising other partyt members?
3. Given the above, why attack russia? if has legitimate security concerns that the EU and US have formed a dangerous russia phobic regime right next door to it. How would sweden if US formed a sweden hating regime in Finland?
the new neonzazi regime threatens russia with nukes… imagine if Iran was to threaten israel with nukes?
http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-neo-nazi-party-threatens-russia-with-nuclear-weapons-well-regain-our-nuclear-status/5371524
so why has swedens FM ignored all thjis info? its been known for weeks. and why has noone apprised him. is all this is at it seems: a calculated move by US and EU to rol NATO to russias doorstep??
concerned

Posted by: brian | Mar 15 2014 6:00 utc | 106

@96 brian
You forgot one:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/crimea-vs-quebec-the-legal-right-to-a-referendum-on-self-determination/5373029

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 15 2014 6:00 utc | 107

Mccain in NYT say that regimge change
Will come to russia soon.
This warmonger is wrong as always.

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 15 2014 6:51 utc | 108

http://fair.org/counterspin-radio/stephen-cohen-on-ukraine-jeff-chester-on-corporate-surveillance/ Stephen Cohen on Ukraine Dec
20, 2013 talking about how the US was supporting protestors who were not standing up for democracy.

Posted by: Tom Murphy | Mar 15 2014 7:17 utc | 109

Crimea Independence ‏@IndependentKrym 3h
one of the posts the nazi Kharkiv killers removed from their page https://vk.com/w8tan boasting of their killings https://twitter.com/IndependentKrym/status/444687967643115520/photo/1

Posted by: brian | Mar 15 2014 7:24 utc | 110

bevin (90)
Unlike you, I have repeatedly elaborated and founded my arguments, often enough even using zato sources and information.
From you, however, I have yet to see a conclusive analysis (re. Russia) based on verifiable facts.
What I do see, however, is you trying to find shelter in saying things like “In the meantime take your juvenile abuse elsewhere.” right after blabbering about “verifiable facts” and – having none available.
And indeed, you even tell us frankly

I know very little about Russia today

yet you dare to make statements about Russia being weak.
In fact, I also have yet to see any facts from you to show that zusa is mighty or militarily powerful.
I on the other side did thoroughly check the facts and that includes relevant facts about the other side, zusa, too.
Because when judging or interpreting a power struggle between two parties, one must have facts and knowledge about those two parties.
If A) doesn’t show any factual expertise or relevant knowledge on a matter he makes plenty of statements about, knowledge and facts neither about one side, nor about the other side and yet arrogates to give judgement … and B) demonstrates again and again his rich factual knowledge about both sides …
then I, “person B” am very confidently suggesting that anyone with a brain and some basic education will easily recognize that you, unlike myself, may know how to write well worded and nice sounding and in good english but that you, Pardon my French, know about as much about what you are spattering about as a dead cow knows about dancing tango.
Well noted, there might be and probably are areas you know well or even very well, and you might be capable of writing quite good fiction literature or propaganda for some interest group or party – but that is of no concern here.
What is of concern here is that you know what we’re talking about here. And you clearly don’t.
And, sorry that someone has to state that so frankly but the very idea of trying to resolve your gross incompetence by applying the zamerican credo of “dominance projection” at myself may be proof of your zusa indoctrination but it is not only ridiculous and showing human poverty but outright stupid. And stupidity certainly isn’t a good starting point for fighting with me.
And now nuland yourself and try to beat up babyseals in a box.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 15 2014 7:26 utc | 111

Ozawa (95)
Front up disclaimer: I’m not in a position to offer any solid judgement on German politics (in part because I’m not interested. Germany is an occupied and remote controlled nation although that is slightly hidden and disguised). What I can say is largely based on what I know from my partner. If in doubt, verify my statements and impressions.

Are you of the view that almost the entire political class of Germany is anti-Putin? It looks like replacing Merkel would do no good. Perhaps German business groups feel more money can be made from plundering the Ukraine and going after Russia than in working with her.

Yes, from what I know it seems that not the entire but the largest part of the political class are anti-Putin. And so is the large part of the media. The state media (TV) seem to actually be heavily and not so covertly engaged in propaganda.
But no, it seems the business groups are not. Whether their neutral to positive attitude toward Russia is merely business based (we like anyone we can earn money with) or politically based is not known to me. I would, however, assume the former.
What I hear increasingly often is that the Germans seem to be very unhappy with the politicians and that they, at least in significant part, rather like Putin/Russia or at least are neutral. There seems to also be an wide understanding with Germans that their politicians aren’t trustworthy, don’t care about the peoples wishes and needs but rather follow some zeu or zusa orders.

If ZATO decides to try to recreate a Syrian scenario in the Ukraine, what could Russia do? Your discussion of Crimean forces agitating in Southern and Eastern Ukraine seems a bit limited. Surely ZATO can afford thousands of “freedom fighters” in the Syrian style to try to depopulate the key Russian areas. After all, US strategy is not to win wars, but to wreck countries.

That is a rather theoretical question in my minds eye. While I have no doubts that the kiev criminals will try some dirty attacks, I’m strongly expecting those to be rather limited.
Don’t forget that Syria is VERY much different from ukraine. For one, Assad had and has the majority of the Syrian people behind him, the ukraine criminal regime certainly doesn’t.
Also, Syria is quite alone regionally; although Iran is a strong and loyal ally and friend there are other countries in between and Iran herself is under lots of pressure.
ukraine on the other hand, is a direct neighbour of Russia. So, just to name an example, the people of southern and eastern ukraine would have a virtually unlimited supply of weapons and other support that no third party (like jordan with Syria) could interdict.
And no matter how many “freedom fighters” zusa can afford (which I btw consider as doubtful; they days of unlimited resources are gone for zusa) Russia can certainly afford more, if alone because they need not afford them; they are right there. And I very very strongly doubt that zato could bring in millions of terrorists.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 15 2014 7:49 utc | 112

Mr P.,
It is bad news for Russia if there is no chance of getting another Schroeder. You need political figures willing to take the heat and debate the anti-Russian forces. Schroeder has been quite helpful in damaging the anti-Putin forces in Germany in recent debates and TV shows.
ZATO depopulated Serbian areas, right? Promote terrorism and drive the victims out. Of course, Serbia was relatively weak, and Russia is relatively strong, but it is a lot easier to create terror than to prevent it. And Syria had a functioning state, with a strong military and police system. What have Russian speakers in the Southern Ukraine got? The state and military will be against them, not for them, and the same goes for the oligarchs.
Call me jaded, but people power doesn’t usually defeat lawyers, guns, and money, to quote a well-known song. The US still prints the dollars, and can profit from robbing the Ukraine blind. At minimum, I think Russia needs to make it have a cost for an oligarch to kidnap a local leader. Is there no way to go on the offense?

Posted by: Ozawa | Mar 15 2014 8:13 utc | 113

snigger….indeed:
Henry Bature Okelue ‏@4eyedmonk 1h
When John Kerry says “we wont recognize [Crimean] referendum”, isnt he setting himself up? What if Crimeans(by some magic) vote “NO”?

Posted by: brian | Mar 15 2014 8:29 utc | 114

Why are you discussing at length the worldwide mainstream media and their desperate tries to keep to the unexpected gift “Ukraine” which fell into their arms?
Go and support the forces on the ground who are fighting, not only virtually discussing …
in german from borotba website:
Die Union “Borotba” unterstützt spontane antifaschistische Aktionen, die sich in den Städten der südlichen und östlichen Ukraine ausbreiten. Wir stellen fest, dass unsere Mitglieder an solchen Aktionen aktiv teilnehmen werden. Nach der Absetzung von Janukowitsch genießen solche Aktionen nicht länger die Unterstützung seitens der Regierung. Zugleich betrachten wir den Einfluss der russischen Nationalisten in derartigen Aktionen als schädlich. All die heilsamen Kräfte der Gesellschaft können nur auf Grundlage von Internationalismus und Freundschaft zwischen den Völkern vereint werden, nicht jedoch auf der Grundlage von ethnischen, sprachlichen oder religiösen Spaltungen.
Man kann das Zentrum für Antifaschistischen Widerstand per E-Mail erreichen unter: front@borotba.org,
099 134 14 64
still waiting for the english translation on their website, in short its:
The Union “Borotba” supports spontaneous anti-fascist actions, which spread in the cities of southern and eastern Ukraine. We note that our members will actively participate in such activities. After the deposition of Yanukovych such actions no longer enjoy the support of the government. At the same time, we consider the influence of Russian nationalists in such actions as harmful. All the healing forces of society can be united only on the basis of internationalism and friendship among peoples, but not on the basis of ethnic, linguistic or religious divisions.
the Center for Anti-Fascist Resistance may be reached by e-mail at: see above
http://borotba.org/the_new_neoliberal_fascist_government_in_ukraine.html

Posted by: thomas | Mar 15 2014 10:04 utc | 115

another source from the ground:
http://www.crimethinc.com/blog/2014/03/12/ukraine-how-nationalists-took-the-lead/
While Putin tries to change the subject from insurrection to war (perhaps in fear that the contagion of unrest will spread inside Russian borders), we believe it is especially important for anarchists and others with a stake in social movements to learn from the revolution in Ukraine. Specifically, we want to study how nationalist and fascist elements were able to take the initiative, and how to minimize the likelihood of this occurring elsewhere in the future.
To that purpose, we present an interview here with a member of the Autonomous Workers’ Union in Kiev, who discusses why groups like Svoboda and Pravy Sector were positioned to take advantage of the social movement, and evaluates the effectiveness of the various strategies anarchists and anti-fascists adopted in this unfavorable context.
Shortly, we will present our preliminary hypotheses about what anarchists elsewhere around the world can learn the Ukrainian example, along with a reading list of primary source materials available in English.
How were nationalists able to establish themselves so visibly within the movement? Was it because they were there first? Was it because they had more resources? Or was it something about the issues and demands of the movement itself?
There were several reasons. First of all, nationalism is not rejected by the vast majority of protesters. Even people with liberal views haven’t said much against the party “Svoboda” (Freedom) and other nationalistic organizations. Most of them prefer to turn a blind eye to the aggressive actions of nationalists, imagining that nationalists will not follow their ideology. Surely, this is a delusion.
Secondly, nationalists from the Svoboda party started to infiltrate almost any social protest long ago. They have numerous activists while other parties don’t. These activists did a lot of organizing work during protests. During the clashes with police, boneheads’ support became even more valuable. This concerns also the “Pravy Sector” (Right Sector) group. On the other hand, Svoboda lost some support on account of aggressively infiltrating others’ activist space and brutal fights with other protesters.
Thirdly, other opposition parties need Svoboda votes in the parliament. Even though quite a large number of people still weren’t very happy about Svoboda (as well as some European politicians, who would prefer not to cooperate with nationalists openly), Svoboda was appreciated as a legitimate part of the protests because of their resources.
Why were anarchists and antifascists not able to establish a similar presence? Would it have been possible if they had acted differently?
There are not so many anarchists and antifascists in Ukraine compared to nationalists. Also, a lot of anarchists were skeptical about the protest when it was all about Euro-integration, they partly joined in when “Maidan” changed mainly into a protest against police brutality. Nevertheless, it was quite dangerous to agitate about any social issue, as the far right could attack at any time.
Another reason for this was that anarchists and antifascists in Ukraine are divided because of several principal issues. Quite many “anarchists” and antifascists are rather manarchists, reject feminism and pro-choice movements as “bourgeois,” and cooperate with national-anarchists from “Avtonomy Opir” (Autonomous Resistance).
Can you imagine anything anarchists and antifascists could have done in the previous years that would have prepared them better for this situation?
In fact, the whole situation was quite unexpected for everyone—even for the Opposition leaders. It was the government who provoked the protest to grow larger with brutal violence of riot police squads.
Also, there are not so many anarchists in Ukraine. For example, the 1st of May demonstration in Kiev gathered about 300-350 anarchists and antifascists in 2012, and their number decreased to about 200-250 the following year. Other cities have much smaller anarchist and antifascist scenes. A lot of people changed their views from anarchism to social democracy or national-anarchism. I think that the main reason was that we had very few workshops, discussions, book publishing, etc. Now the main issue is to increase the number of activists again and concentrate on workshops about theory.
What strategies have different anarchist groups pursued for engaging with this situation? What conclusions can you draw from the results?
When the “Euromaidan” had just started, different leftist and feminist groups, including the syndicalist student union “Priama Diya” (Direct Action), tried to infiltrate the protest in different ways with social and feminist slogans, criticizing the idea of Euro-integration at the same time. They were pushed out of the protest by the boneheads; activists of the communist party “Borotba” were even beaten very harshly. Some activists continued to infiltrate the protest in different ways, but not so openly—for example, organizing different workshops among protesters—but there ware almost no results.
Antifascist football fans of “Arsenal-Kiev” decided to join the protest against police brutality. They declared the “truce” with Nazis and joined the fights against the police. Also “Arsenal-Kiev” fans made a call for all anarchists and antifascists to join their struggle, while they were cooperating with national-anarchists from “Avtonomny Opir.” After anarchists spoke some criticism about such alliance, football fans threatened everyone criticizing them with violence. Of course, this proclamation made a reverse effect, as even more people turned their backs to football fans.
After extreme police brutality in January, different leftists, and anarchists in particular, initiated “Hospital Guard”—a group of people that was trying to prevent police brutality against injured people in hospitals. “Hospital Guard” was quite effective, and a quite lot of protesters with moderate views joined it. Now, after fights against the police are over, “Hospital Guard” activists are thinking about changing it into an initiative that would fight against neoliberal medical reform. Only time will tell how effective it was.
Which aspects of anarchist rhetoric and approach have nationalists appropriated? What can we do to prevent this?
Nazis from “Pravy Sector” and the Svoboda party have no need to appropriate anarchist ideas—they still stand for the strong state and have support with this idea. During the Maidan protests, they changed their rhetoric to be more democratic than before in order to get more sympathizers, but it still is very authoritarian and has no sign of anarchist influence.
The only fascist group that appropriated anarchist ideas was “Avtonomny Opir,” the former National Labor Party of Ukraine. Their ideology is a mix of anarchism, nationalism, and the Third Way. Some of leftists were quite happy to see that former fascists had started to change their views, but in fact this evolution stopped on that ideological mix. The evolution of “Avtonomny Opir” also had another effect—some antifascists and anarchists started to cooperate with them and appropriated their ideas. So now groups like “Narody Nabat” (People’s Bell) and “Socialny Opir” as well as Arsenal-Kiev football fans have basically the same views, including pro-life and rejection of feminism.

Posted by: thomas | Mar 15 2014 10:14 utc | 116

Moon of Alabama: a blog falling apart?

Posted by: Porgy Tirebitter | Mar 15 2014 10:38 utc | 117

If you want to support directly, Rote Hilfe e.V. (Red Support) in Germany – an organisation with a more than 40-years history -, has opened up a support account for antifascists in Ukraine:
account no.: 56036239
BLZ: 260 500 01
Bank: Sparkasse Göttingen – Germany
IBAN: DE25 2605 0001 0056 0362 39
BIC: NOLADE21GOE
purpose: „Antifa Ukraine”
Borotba:
We condemn ex-regime of Yanukovich and the new far-right government as well. We condemn Russian and Western interference in Ukrainian affairs as well as militarist patriotic intoxication induced by new power.
We stay strong on our left positions, though we are targeted by boneheads, far-right nationalists from Right Sector and ‘Svoboda’ paramilitaries. Our office in Kiev was recently looted and ransacked. Our members are victims of far-right violence. Some activists of the ‘Borotba’ union had to go underground so that to continue anti-fascist struggle.
another voice:
http://avtonomia.net/2014/02/20/maidan-contradictions-interview-ukrainian-revolutionary-syndicalist/
http://avtonomia.net/2014/02/27/fifty-shades-brown/

Posted by: thomas | Mar 15 2014 10:42 utc | 118

The Crimean authorities have limited arrivals in the Simferopol airport in order to keep provocateurs out, Crimean First Deputy Prime Minister Rustam Temirgaliyev said. “Bearing in mind the possible influx of provocateurs, we have limited plane arrivals. The measure will be discriminative; all limitations will be lifted after March 17 and the airport will resume its normal operation,” he said.
Crimean self-defense forces have taken control of the Crimean division of state company Ukraerorukh, which, according to Temirgaliyev, hindered the arrival of Tatarstan head Rustam Minnikhanov in Crimea.
“We had a problem yesterday. Ukraerorukh prohibited the plane of Tatarstan head Rustam Minnikhanov to enter the [Crimean] airspace on the orders from the Kyiv authorities. The Tatarstan head tried to take an S7 flight, but that flight was also denied entry. There was an attempt to arrive by an Emergency Situations Ministry plane, but it was not permitted to enter the Ukrainian airspace either. The situation is under control now,” Temirgaliyev said.
He noted that the Crimean Council of Ministers took charge of the Ukraerorukh Crimean division.
Tatarstan head Minnikhanov eventually arrived in Simferopol, met with Crimean Tatar leaders and attended a special session of the Crimean Supreme Council.
Voice of Russia, Interfax
/
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_03_12/Flights-to-Crimea-to-be-limited-until-March-17-to-keep-provocateurs-out-authorities-6232/

Posted by: brian | Mar 15 2014 10:43 utc | 119

@117
no Porgy: but we can see u are bitter that MofA is here

Posted by: brian | Mar 15 2014 10:44 utc | 120

ABCs Alexander Marquardt ‏@MarquardtA Mar 12
Gear stolen from 3 Norwegian journalists LEAVING #Crimea by Russians who called them spies. http://www.thelocal.no/20140311/masked-russians-seized-our-gear-ukraine-crimea
the word he is seeking is ‘confiscated’

Posted by: brian | Mar 15 2014 10:49 utc | 121

Yet more on how “democracy” works in Putsch-occupied #Ukraine, aka #Banderastan
Ukraine mayor detained for ‘attacking’ Right Sector thugs who raided city council meeting
http://t.co/lZRTFzRzcf

Posted by: brian | Mar 15 2014 10:54 utc | 122

Boris Kargarlitzky
http://links.org.au/node/3752

Posted by: thomas | Mar 15 2014 10:59 utc | 123

Boris Kagarlitsky: ‘Polite intervention’ and the Ukrainian uprising
Unarmed Ukrainian troops march on the Belbek airfield in Crimea to retake it from soldiers under Russian command. After a shouting match, the Ukrainians withdrew and some members of both sides played soccer together.
By Boris Kagarlitsky, Moscow; translated by Renfrey Clarke
March 4, 2014 – Links International Journal of Socialist Renewal — Why, do you suppose, war has not yet broken out between Russia and Ukraine? The answer is very simple: no one plans to go to war, and no one can. Kiev for practical purposes does not have an army, while the government that has appeared in Kiev has no control over half of Ukraine, and cannot even exercise particular control over its own supporters. If the Ukrainian authorities make any serious attempt to mobilise their forces, this will merely provoke new protests. Even rumours of such a possibility have been enough to provoke anti-government demonstrations in Odessa.
Moscow, meanwhile, is rattling its sabres, but very cautiously. If the Kremlin were really serious about sending troops onto Ukrainian territory, it would not have asked permission from the Council of the Federation, but would simply have issued the order. Instead of real action we saw PR action, with a “unanimous vote by the senators”. A war broke out in the virtual space of the internet, backed by hysterical commentaries from liberals and malevolent howls from conservative propagandists. In essence, this was enough to fulfil the tasks faced by the authorities at present.
‘Neither peace nor war’
The psychological effect was almost as if we were waging a serious war somewhere near Kharkov. Meanwhile, there were no victims and there was no destruction. Unless, that is, we count the collapse of the ruble. Here too, however, things were not so simple; for several months, the Russian government and the Central Bank had been seeking a devaluation of the national currency. At least since September analysts had been forecasting figures of 37 rubles to the dollar and 50 to the euro. The Ukrainian events merely accelerated this process, and helped the financial authorities carry out their plan while evading responsibility for devaluing the savings of our citizens.
When a certain number of leftists, repeating century-old slogans, speak of “a war unleashed in the interests of large-scale capital”, they once again get things wrong. Instead of repeating clichés from old text books, what is needed is a little economic analysis. The truth is that large-scale capital, both private and bureaucratic, has no need at present for a war.
Human vices often rebound to the advantage of society. If our government and military leadership were made up of intelligent, principled and decisive people, we could indeed expect far more unpleasant developments. The Russian economy is highly dependent on the gas pipeline that passes through Ukraine. The economies of many European Union countries, not to speak of Ukraine, also depend on this pipeline operating without interruption. Of course, the investments made by “our” oligarchs in Ukrainian enterprises need defending, but military action would sooner exacerbate the problems here than solve them. The cynicism and avarice of our present-day rulers are the best guarantee that there will not be a major war.
The authorities in Kiev are also satisfied. They are able to employ the “Russian threat” to consolidate the new regime, to explain away economic difficulties as the result of external pressure, and in retrospect, to justify their own steps that have brought Ukraine to collapse. The present situation of “neither peace nor war” thus suits both governments perfectly, at least for the moment. The only significant cause for unease is Moscow’s aim of preserving the fugitive Viktor Yanukovich as the “real president”, while hinting at the possibility of restoring him to the Kievan throne.
But this should not be taken too seriously; as stated earlier, the people in the Kremlin are cynical, will not make any serious undertakings to the Ukrainian fugitive, and if they do, will break them. Of course, it is very convenient for the Kremlin authorities to have a “lawful president” on hand, but if an opportunity fails to present itself, the former legitimate ruler will be transformed in the space of five minutes into an unwelcome foreigner.
Crimea
In Crimea, Russian forces have restricted themselves to “polite intervention”. Of course, this was a violation of sovereignty, but let’s be honest: in an analogous situation the French, Americans and British would have done the same. When the French held off from intervening in Rwanda and allowed a bloodbath to go ahead, progressive opinion condemned them wrathfully for their inertia. When the same French state intervened in Mali and prevented a full-scale civil war, the same progressive opinion angrily denounced the intervention. An analogous situation has emerged with Crimea. Both possible decisions were associated with the prospect of serious political and moral losses, with the risk of coming under fire from domestic and international criticism. In Moscow the choice was in favour of a local intervention, but an effort was made to carry it out as cautiously as possible.
So far, Russian forces have acted in a far more restrained fashion than the French and Americans in similar situations. Perhaps this is not because of the government but despite it; on both sides, it may simply be that the good sense of the lower ranks has prevailed in conditions where the hierarchy of command has been weakened.
The Russian special forces have not stormed the bases of the Ukrainian troops, but march around them and squabble half-heartedly with the Ukrainian commanders trying to persuade the latter to hand over their weapons. The Ukrainians refuse, referring not to the oath they have taken and to their loyalty to their homeland, but to the fact that the weapons are state property, for which the commanders of the base are responsible. The Russians respond to these arguments with understanding; if they were in the place of their Ukrainian colleagues, they would do the same.
It is a new form of war, without gunfire or casualties. No one wants to start shooting, and no one particularly cares what happens to the obsolete armoured personnel carriers or to the firearms stored in the barracks. At any rate, neither side is prepared to risk life and limb and this provides cause for hope.
‘The sheepskin is not worth dividing up’
The Russian elites are mortally afraid of seriously angering the West, but in the West too people have realised that they will not achieve their goals in Ukraine without Russian help. The European Union does not need a zone of chaos on its eastern frontier, a new Somalia or Congo on its very doorstep. Nor is it possible for the EU to send its own troops or police onto Ukrainian territory, as in Bosnia or Kosovo, or at any rate without Russian assent.
The US press criticises Moscow fiercely, but indicates plainly that the US will not help Kiev, since there are no appropriate treaties and Ukraine is not a member of NATO. Meanwhile, the International Monetary Fund has already refused money to Kiev, in particularly blunt fashion. IMF head Christine Largarde has declared that Ukraine does not need immediate financial assistance:
We do not see anything critical that would be worth panicking about at the moment. We definitely hope that no-one rushes in with large sums, which would in fact be pointless if these contributions were not evaluated in the proper manner.
In Brussels and Washington, the decision evidently has already been made that the sheepskin, as we Russians say, is not worth dividing up, that with the prospects uncertain the risk is just too great. If anyone has to bear the moral, material and financial costs of restoring order, the thinking goes, then let it be the Russians.
In principle, the strategy of confining the conflict to Crimea alone suits both the Kremlin and the West – and perhaps even the new authorities in Kiev too. In recent times the German press has been urging Ukraine to sacrifice Crimea for the sake of integration into Europe. The problem, however, is that the process is developing spontaneously, and that it is no longer controlled by a few politicians. Both in Moscow and in Kiev the governments in the recent period have shown plainly that they are incapable of working out any long-term strategy. It is thus quite obvious that the crisis will grow and deepen, but not according to the scenario promised by the people who are terrifying themselves and others with the spectre of a Russo-Ukrainian war.
More than likely, the present authorities in Kiev will not hold out for long in any case. Commentators in Moscow who are sympathetic to them remind us constantly that most of the ministries in the new government are not held by radicals from Svoboda or the Right Sector, but by more moderate politicians. Meanwhile, the commentators neglect to mention that these “moderates” are hostages of the radicals. As Mao said, power comes from the barrel of a gun. In circumstances where the army has fallen to pieces, and the organs of law enforcement have either been smashed, or are demoralised, or have been placed under the control of the Right Sector, it is the radical nationalists who control the situation. The “moderates” in the government are only tolerated because they have promised to stop the eastern provinces splitting away. Now that they are failing to cope with this task, they will be purged. Either western Ukraine will move against Kiev as well, seeking the formation of a more resolute and “national” government as a “response to Russian aggression”, or the same impulse will come from within the capital itself. In either case, right-wing pressure will result in such a government being formed that Kiev itself will rise in revolt.
In the east, meanwhile, the disintegration of the Party of the Regions and the collapse of the old administration have not resulted in the “triumphant progress” of the Maidan movement, but on the contrary, to growing resistance to the new authorities holding sway in Kiev. Among leftists, the deepening economic crisis is sowing hopes that the demonstrations under “national slogans” will soon be replaced by class-based protests both in the east and the west. Developments of this sort, however, do not occur automatically.
Neither Maidan nor the demonstrations in the east have had the character of a spontaneous popular revolution. In both cases, outside forces have been involved. The class nature of the new regime in Kiev was demonstrated with striking clarity when billionaire oligarchs were appointed to key posts in the eastern regions. In exchange for “stabilisation”, they were offered the chance to privatise not only the economy in the eastern provinces, but also the functions of power. Meanwhile, it should be noted that the people who are now coming to power in the east are not exactly sons and daughters of the popular masses either.
The only cause for optimism is the fact that from the beginning, the ideological vector of the protests in the east has been different from that in the west. Left activists were driven from the Maidan in Kiev and beaten up (that is not to mention what happened to left-wing symbols and monuments). In Kharkov and Odessa, by contrast, Soviet monuments were defended, and here and there people even raised red flags. But there should be no illusions here: what is involved for the present is cultural differences rather than class positions. Members of the left need to work in the protest movement in the eastern regions, strengthening their influence and helping to shape a positive program. In this case, there is a real chance that the entire movement can be shifted to more progressive positions, and that the left can win hegemony within it. This is no more than a potential opening, but with the Maidan movement no such chance existed.
The conflict unfolding in Ukraine is not a contest of unalloyed good versus unambiguous evil. Nor is it even a contest between a “Russian” south and east and a “Ukrainian” west. In both cases, economic interests are intertwined with cultural contradictions, and the logic of the conflict is leading to the formation of alliances that do not always correspond to declared ideologies. What is occurring is not so much a split within the country as its fragmentation.
The world war of which jingoists and liberal Russophobes write with such anticipation will not take place. Nor will there be a war between Russia and Ukraine. There will probably not even be a civil war, in the form in which we imagine it. But there will be something that could prove worse than a civil war – chaos, fraught with arbitrary and mindless violence by all against all. If this occurs, the worst of the possible scenarios will come to pass. As in Somalia or the Congo.
The only positive outcome to this crisis would be a federalisation of the state combined with a democratisation of rule at the local level (otherwise, federalisation will simply lead to the country being divided between oligarchic groups). But this is also a program of democratic revolution, which under certain conditions could extend to social revolution.
Especially if changes meanwhile start happening in Russia itself.
But even if this does not occur in the near future, we should hope that within Ukraine forces able to resist the logic of disintegration begin to ripen.

Posted by: thomas | Mar 15 2014 11:03 utc | 124

we havent had the vote yet and already the MSM is demonising the head of Crimea
take ABC Alexander Marquardt ‏@MarquardtA Mar 11
#Crimea’s new PM is a “lumbering former cigarette trader with Russian separatism in his genes.” Good read by @shustry http://time.com/19097/putin-crimea-russia-ukraine-aksyonov/
i sure he enjoyed it because he is media and seems reflexively averse to russia and crimeans choosing be russian

Posted by: brian | Mar 15 2014 11:04 utc | 125

Nora (75): “Shamir said years ago that Israel was the brains and the US simply the brawn. It’s a hypothesis that always needs to be considered, imo.” Don’t get distracted – as planned! – by the old jews=zionists or not question. Shamir said it in the typical arrogance of somewhat thinking he is in full control and doesn’t need to be careful anymore. Just check it yourself! What is the “brains” of zusa? And who sits there, who controls it? It’s the “dual citizenship” zionists. In congress, in government, in universitites (who, after all, form the next generation of leaders …), in media. Shamir was *obviously* honest (which should set off an alarm, him being a arch zionist) Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 14, 2014 10:47:26 PM | 86

Mr P, I hope you realise that in her comment (now #76, for some reason), Nora was undoubtedly referencing Israel Adam Shamir, the noted anti-Zionist columnist, not Yitzhak Shamir, the Stern Gang terrorist, erstwhile Israel PM, and arch zionist.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Mar 15 2014 11:16 utc | 126

I think the most important thought in Boris K, article above is the following:
“As Mao said, power comes from the barrel of a gun. In circumstances where the army has fallen to pieces, and the organs of law enforcement have either been smashed, or are demoralised, or have been placed under the control of the Right Sector, it is the radical nationalists who control the situation. The “moderates” in the government are only tolerated because they have promised to stop the eastern provinces splitting away.”
This is exactly the description of a kind of “bolshevik” putsch or revolution which I mentioned some days ago in another thread. If you are armed and the only one effectively armed you don’t need the majority, you just force unarmed people to do what you like, like seen in the parliament, on the streets and elsewhere in Ukraine. The continous talk of western mainstream media and governments to diminuish the importance of these right and fascist armed gangs will very soon turn against them – latest when these gangs take power directly, without respect for any political majority by voting.

Posted by: thomas | Mar 15 2014 11:28 utc | 127

Retweeted Damien McElroy (@ddamned):
Loud cheers for calls from Afghan war vet for #donetsk to join Russian Federation http://t.co/zutdQA1w1y
Mike Giglio ‏@mike_giglio 22m
Pro-Russia protest in Donetsk, growing pretty steadily pic.twitter.com/vu4RFz2NJg
Mike Giglio ‏@mike_giglio 29m
Protesters in Donetsk: “Your media is only showing the information from Kiev”; “we have an information vacuum here.”
Mike Giglio ‏@mike_giglio 40m
From Donetsk: https://twitter.com/mike_giglio/status/444785131518447616/photo/1
Mike Giglio ‏@mike_giglio 45m
From Donetsk: “No to Nazism (made in USA)” https://twitter.com/mike_giglio/status/444784572832940032/photo/1
Mike Giglio ‏@mike_giglio 49m
At the Lenin statue in Donetsk: pic.twitter.com/M5OyQVEeEt
https://twitter.com/mike_giglio/status/444783769007161344/photo/1
Mike Giglio ‏@mike_giglio 55m
Pro-Russia protester in Donetsk: “those people who are in charge now are from another planet.”
Mike Giglio ‏@mike_giglio 56m
“Ref-e-ren-dum!” Pro-Russia protest in Donetsk.
Mike Giglio ‏@mike_giglio 1h
From pro-Russia protest in Donetsk: “Crimea first, Donbass (Donetsk region) next.” https://twitter.com/mike_giglio/status/444781216324386816/photo/1
Mike Giglio ‏@mike_giglio 5m
Donetsk protester: “the new gov is trying to sell us and our land to Europe + US, and make is into cheap laborers.”
Mike Giglio ‏@mike_giglio 30m
donetsk ‘we love russia’
https://twitter.com/mike_giglio/status/444789166728306688/photo/1
Mike Giglio ‏@mike_giglio 41m
Protester in Donetsk: “Obama has committed a crime by financing the Maidan. He should go before a court, in America and internationally.”
Retweeted by Mike Giglio
bruce springnote ‏@BSpringnote 3h
Donetsk court refuses to forbid pro Russia protests this weekend, says “there is no evidence of them being dangerous” #euromaidan

Posted by: brian | Mar 15 2014 11:52 utc | 128

interventions ‘theirs and ours’:
1. Donetsk Daily ‏@DonetskDaily 5h
Russia claims right to intervene in Donetsk after clashes as talks to solve … http://www.snsanalytics.com/8Hi5y8
2. classic sly liz Liz Sly @LizSly Mar 14
How much worse could Syria be? The Telegraph’s @RichardJSpencer demolishes the anti-interventionists. Powerfully.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/…/Syria-anniversary-the… ………………..note this would allow russia also to ‘intervene’ in ukraine, but would Sly Liz agree?

Posted by: brian | Mar 15 2014 11:55 utc | 129

Secretary General of NATO Anders Fogh Rasmussen said “The so-called referendum in the Ukrainian Autonomous Republic of Crimea planned on 16 March would be a direct violation of the Ukrainian constitution and international law”.Let’s get down to first principles, the takeover of the Ukrainian parliament was a coup, the correct procedures to be followed in the Ukrainian constitution to replace a legal president were trashed, therefore the so called interim government is illegal. But none of this matters to the leaders of the West, Rasmussen always parrots the US talking points, this man is quite scary [those eyes] if his finger was on the nuclear button you could guarantee bombs away.

Posted by: harrylaw | Mar 15 2014 12:01 utc | 130

pro-tony benn…and anti russian
James Jones ‏@rjamesjones 20h
I’m told the film I worked on 8 years ago as a very junior researcher about the life of Tony Benn will be broadcast tonight on BBC2 at 11pm.
James Jones ‏@rjamesjones Mar 14
Oh, god. Awful news about Tony Benn. The first film I worked on was a biography of his amazing life. It was a total joy.
=======
hes currently in ukraine…
James Jones ‏@rjamesjones Mar 10
Yanukovich apparently giving another press conference from Rostov tomorrow. I can’t help thinking the more he talks the better for Kiev.
James Jones ‏@rjamesjones Mar 1
Putin goes to war, David Remnick typically brilliant on events in Ukraine. http://m.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2014/03/putin-goes-to-war-in-crimea.html?utm_source=tny&utm_campaign=generalsocial&utm_medium=twitter&mbid=social_twitter
========
Comment: WTF!? the Newyorker (not surpringly) treats President Putin as a dictator….so how is the piece ‘totally brilliant’? did JJ really like Benn?

Posted by: brian | Mar 15 2014 12:19 utc | 131

124
These pp are nothing but racists against russians.
This is just ugly what msm is doing.

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 15 2014 12:24 utc | 132

Mike Giglio ‏@mike_giglio 11m
Cheers from Donetsk crowd as Ukraine flag comes down at security HQ; replaced by flag of local pro-Russia group https://twitter.com/mike_giglio/status/444810872264073216/photo/1

Posted by: brian | Mar 15 2014 12:32 utc | 133

Steve Rosenberg ‏@BBCSteveR 19m
Outside the regional administration building, Donetsk. “We’re just on duty like normal,” officer tells me. Hmm. pic.twitter.com/K1CwT5sYpO ……………..like in Kiev? did SR ask the same question of the Police in Kiev?
guess who provocateurs pussy riot support…Lyndsay Farlow ‏@LyndsayFarlow 7m
Russian punk band Pussy Riot take part in anti-war rally in Moscow ahead of #Crimea vote http://itv.co/1nnQtRw pic.twitter.com/0z5MV6RbVf

Posted by: brian | Mar 15 2014 12:48 utc | 134

LIVE STREAM DONETSK rally http://novosti.dn.ua/details/220259/

Posted by: brian | Mar 15 2014 13:20 utc | 135

The creation of Ukraine’s National Guard – the custodian of the coup-imposed government – has raised concerns that it may later be deployed to eastern regions of Ukraine to suppress the population increasingly standing up against Kiev.
Yet experts are already beginning to question the true motives behind the formation of the new combat force in Ukraine. Historian Vladimir Skachko argues that the Guard will be used to antagonize the Russian speaking population, and he has called the creation of the special force “legalization of neo-Nazi and neo-fascist batons.”
Citing historical examples from 20th century European history, Skachko draws a parallel with the SA, or Brownshirts, a paramilitary wing of the Nazi Party, which acted as death squads.
The new secretary of Ukraine’s Security Council, Andrey Parubiy, was one of the founders of the Neo-Nazi Social-National Party of Ukraine (SNPU), known as Svoboda party. Parubiy, according to numerous reports was in control of the building, from which snipers attacked the central Kiev in February.
Deputy Prime Minister Aleksandr Sych is also a member of Svoboda, which reportedly uses Nazi symbols, flying WWII era nationalist flags from the time when Ukrainian Nazis collaborated with Berlin. The self-imposed prosecutor general of Ukraine, Oleg Makhnitsky is also a member of Svoboda.
On Friday, Moscow launched a criminal investigation into Svoboda’s leader Oleg Tyagnibok for his alleged role in fighting Russian forces in Chechnya.
Another key figure is Dmitry Yarosh, the leader of the Right Sector, which was instrumental in setting up the National Guard forces. The Right Sector is an alliance of neo-fascist groups including UNA-UNSO, Patriot of Ukraine who allegedly fought against Russian troops in Chechnya and Moldova.
“Rotation of forces is taking place, to move the military units to new locations. New authorized political representatives posts are created for those troops that are being sent to South-East and the Crimean borders,” Korotchenko said, claiming his information came from his Ukrainian sources.
The National Guard units, he says, would act as guardians of the coup leadership and ideals.
“Roughly speaking, these will be the commissars of the Maidan, people with executive functions and the right to dismiss field commanders in case of any suspicion of disloyalty to the new Ukrainian authorities,” the journalist elaborated, saying the troops will be deployed to those areas which seek greater autonomy from Kiev and might be used “against the population and the Self-Defense Forces of Crimea.”

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-national-guard-squadrons-974/
Kiev is also trying to jam Russian TV satellites and preventing Russian press from covering this crisis. Thugs are also threatening media companies working with Russian TV and are banning Russian press from entering Ukraine.
http://rt.com/news/ukraine-attacks-television-satellites-990/
Definitely looks like the birth of fascism in Ukraine.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 15 2014 14:27 utc | 136

What you think about the sniper update? To me it shows more and more that the opposition was behind it like we all knew.

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 15 2014 14:32 utc | 137

@ 117: “Moon of Alabama: a blog falling apart?”
I’m sure there are those wanting that to happen very badly, but, wishing won’t make it so. MOA, which I’ve been coming to for years, is an excellent clearing house for information, which no MSM outlet can match. Plenty of diverse opinions, which I’m sure, scare the hell out of some folks that pull the strings behind the curtains.

Posted by: ben | Mar 15 2014 14:39 utc | 138

@ 135 “We all” know nothing of the sort, and neither do you. Data, please, and not from the MSM. Otherwise, skedoodle.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 15 2014 15:45 utc | 139

what is OSCE up to in Ukraine?
‘The wife of Pavel Gubarev told LifeNews that there is indeed strong support for Russia in Donetsk.
“Yesterday, there was news that the OSCE observer mission arrived in the city and that they along with local students were planning to hold a small rally to show that the people in Donetsk support Ukraine’s integration with Europe and that there is no support for Russia at all,” Ekaterina Gubareva told LifeNews. “This deeply angered us because it is not true! We have decided to organize our own peaceful rally to go out and tell everyone that there is more of us and we support the referendum!”’
http://rt.com/news/ukraine-protest-donetsk-dead-674/
a EU observer mission holding a rally? the same OSCE tried to gain entry into Crimea before the vote, but were rebuffed…wisely

Posted by: brian | Mar 15 2014 15:48 utc | 140

this is what dumb americans read: the title alone shows the authors drift and intention.
(not so) christian science monitor, either seeking a novel angle for a story or hell bent on demonising crimea russia Putin and the sunday vote, went al the way to Simferopol to find people who hate the thought they may end up in russia! http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2014/0314/As-Russia-s-grip-closes-on-Crimea-non-Russians-plan-their-exits
notable is its sin of omission of any reason WHY this vote has come to pass! this is as far as they dare go: ‘Checkpoints along the peninsula’s roads have been set up to defend the Crimea from alleged Western Ukrainian “fascists.”’ ….alleged? Svoboda and Pravy sektor are acknowledged by the EU as fascist! http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/03/12/eupa-m12.html a simple google turns up that reality.But CSM is going to see its readers have their heads full of anti communist fluff about its all being Putins fault

Posted by: brian | Mar 15 2014 15:51 utc | 141

apppro ‏@apppro1 41m
@ianbremmer WHY cant we allow Crimea to decide what Crimea wants? If this had been a PRO WEST vote media & Obama would be screaming GO GO GO
Dmitriy ‏@dima7b 26m
@apppro1 because it was established illegally with no basis and is being carried out under gun point. One-sided as well.
apppro ‏@apppro1 25m
@dima7b Oh you mean like the illegal COUP in Kiev that started this mess? Crimeans can VOTE to be INDEPENDENT! I call that a choice!

Posted by: brian | Mar 15 2014 15:55 utc | 142

@136
MOA is indeed a most interesting and valuable source for information and I congratulate b for allowing such a diversity of opinion, which is called freedom of expression. I am a new poster but have been reading and learning from this wonderful site for years.
However, I am concerned about the levels of trolling and bullying which are sadly increasing. Idiots are idiots even if they are highly intelligent, and paid instigators are also transparent sooner or later. However, I would respectively urge some of the major posters to refrain from these childish personal attacks every time someone says something that disagrees with their own views. They may think they are so, so clever but in reality their rants are becoming boring and distracting.
One of the sites I used to read religiously was Zero Hedge. Unfortunately due to the enormous number of trolls and teenagers who only contribute sarcastic one-liners, many serious posters have disappeared. I sincerely hope that MOA continues its ESSENTIAL role in permitting a mature discussion in these times of neo-cons, neo-nazis, neo-commies, etc, so that the truth can survive and grow.

Posted by: TicoTiger | Mar 15 2014 15:58 utc | 143

“Also, a lot of anarchists were skeptical about the protest when it was all about Euro-integration, they partly joined in when “Maidan” changed mainly into a protest against police brutality. Nevertheless, it was quite dangerous to agitate about any social issue, as the far right could attack at any time.”
There is never a good moment to join with ones mortal enemies, even it seems to momentarily bring gains. This is the never-ending problem. You can be sure that Right Sektor, having carried the day with the help of these anarchists, will soon be sifting through these same anarchists police files. Wether they’ll begin to receive night visits, is probably, at this point, determined by how much they sit down and shut up.
Ukraine appears to have been utterly demoralized as a society. The decades of neoliberalism and oligarchy, of combat politics (with foreign NGOs there to fan the flames) have left it bankrupt, broken, and without any strong popular forces that aren’t juiced up on western money and rightwing ideals. This is what $5 billion dollars has bought.

@JSorrentine: It is one thing to call someone out, it is another to act like an complete geek. I’ve gotten used to your shallow, wide-of-the-mark, masturbatory screamfests, but this one topped them all. You’re really an embarrassment.

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 15 2014 16:03 utc | 144

#141 @ TicoTiger You’re right. So let me re-state to anonymous @135,
“Please provide non-MSM evidence of your claims sufficient to refute the evidence to the contrary that has been provided in this blog.”

Posted by: Nora | Mar 15 2014 16:10 utc | 145

The Russians are defending their legitimate national interests close to their border. The referendum in Crimea doesn’t give the West leverage over events. There will probably be further calls for referendums in the coming days in other parts of Ukraine where the people feel more affinity to Russia, and are worried about a breakdown of law, where Kiev might try to extend its control to the east or south. If we are lucky this will continue as a war of words only.

Posted by: Copeland | Mar 15 2014 16:28 utc | 146

@141 – TicoTiger.. thanks for saying that, especially the 2nd paragraph. i agree strongly with that. it seems some people are more infatuated with their ideas then an understanding or respect for the level of tolerance shown towards them.
thomas – i am not reading anything you post at this point.. on the other hand if you shared a link, i might reconsider. the copying and pasting long articles is a type of spamming as i see it and i refuse to support reading them by ignoring them.

Posted by: james | Mar 15 2014 16:37 utc | 147

@145 james, i tried twice to only post the link of this very useful Kargarlitzky article, it didn’t work. maybe there is a spam filter here on MoA preventing someone from just posting links.
by not reading these long articles you will miss some very healthy food for thought…

Posted by: thomas | Mar 15 2014 16:55 utc | 148

Perhaps, Norah@137 & @143, you need to re-read Anon@135’s post. To me it appears you have misunderstood it entirely
First we had this
What you think about the sniper update? To me it shows more and more that the opposition was behind it like we all knew.
Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 15, 2014 10:32:10 AM | 135

Pretty straightforward and easy to understand imo – Anon seems to be saying that s/he thinks “The Opposition” (NATO-Financed Neo-Nazi backed etc) was responsible for the snipers in Maidan Sq.
Then we had this:
@ 135 “We all” know nothing of the sort, and neither do you. Data, please, and not from the MSM. Otherwise, skedoodle.
Posted by: Nora | Mar 15, 2014 11:45:51 AM | 137

Which appears to me that a certain someone disagress with Anon@135’s claim that the “The Opposition” (NATO-Financed Neo-Nazi backed etc) was responsible for the snipers in Maidan Sq, and is demanding “evidence” be provided, otherwise Anon@135 better get lost, as if Norah@137 even had the right to demand such a thing (s/he doesn’t, as far as I know)
Not content with merely disagreeing with Anon@135 just the once, and after telling Anon to get lost, Norah@137 goes on the attack once again (completely unnecessarily imo)
#141 @ TicoTiger You’re right. So let me re-state to anonymous @135,
“Please provide non-MSM evidence of your claims sufficient to refute the evidence to the contrary that has been provided in this blog.”
Posted by: Nora | Mar 15, 2014 12:10:23 PM | 143

Now I’m confused
Norah@143 seems to think that “this blog” has provided some sort of “evidence” that would somehow contradict what Anon@135 claims – that it was “The Opposition” (NATO-Financed Neo-Nazi backed etc) was responsible for the snipers in Maidan Sq.
Norah@143 seems to think that MOA has provided evidence that it was NOT The Opposition” (NATO-Financed Neo-Nazi backed etc) was responsible for the snipers in Maidan Sq.
If that is the case I for one missed it entirely
Now imo, Norah@137 AND @143 has either completely misunderstood Anon@135’s point entirely, or else Norah@143 is under the impression that s/he is posting at some other blog

Posted by: brb | Mar 15 2014 17:00 utc | 149

The uber-Zionist, Bernard-Henri Levy, champion of all fake, Al-Qaeda/neo-nazi sniper-inspired revolutions in Libya, Syria and now Ukraine, wrote an article recently in the Daily Beast denying Ukraine is being run by fascists, which I won’t even link because it’s so vacuous and deceptive, kind of like the sales-pitch of a used car salesman, and so vomit-inducing that I won’t subject you to it, but you may enter there yourselves at your own risk. Ironically and hypocritically, which comes second-nature to him, he wasn’t quite so keen about the very inconvenient (for U.S. and Zionist hegemonic plans) Egyptian revolution. Note how in the following video, he slithers his way using Algeria’s case into declaring that the Muslim Brotherhood should be prevented by any and all means into coming into power in Egypt, when clearly it was thousands of supporters of the Muslim Brotherhood that propelled that Revolution and stood up to the Egyptian water canons on that bridge in Cairo kneeling in prayer and then forcing the retreat of the tanks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWnr27FvNhs
But now he’s all for Svoboda and the Right Sector parties’ revolutionary coup downplaying their influence and fascist tendencies in his latest revolutionary philosophical poop in Daily Beast.
Not that I agree with any or most of what is published on National Interest, but as Jacob Heilbrunn stated in Beware the French Poseur Bernard-Henri Levy:

The question is this: should American policy, let alone French, be determined by an open-shirt, Charvet-wearing French philosophe?

American foreign policy is being driven not only by this Zionist chest-bearing dandy; but also by the rest of Zionist clan in Israel and the Ziocon fringe in Congress.
And he certainly reinforces my case of yesterday @9 on this thread, that
As the U.S. expands militarily and economically, Zionists are right there piggybacking on its expansion and reaping the advantages of American hegemony enjoying greater protection against criticism globally while they’re assured of billions in aid for Israel, a constant U.S. veto, and the freedom to deny the rights of Palestinians indefinitely and steal their land with total impunity fulfilling their own expansionist agenda. So ignoring the messy detail of the growing threat of fascism in Ukraine and shunning Putin ultimately helps the Zionist agenda.
BHL did just that: ignore and downplay the rise of fascism in Ukraine! But he sure didn’t play down the threat he felt was coming in Egypt’s revolution; the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood. (he-he)
Over and over again Zionists insinuate and obsessively invest themselves in what is clearly none of their damn business and prove how rearranging the world’s equilibrium through regime change and fake revolutions came right out of the Zionist playbook and landed smack dab in the Oval Office after it got passed around in Congress.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 15 2014 17:04 utc | 150

@147 Probably just a misinterpretation of ‘opposition’. No big deal. You have a keen eye for an open wound.

Posted by: dh | Mar 15 2014 17:05 utc | 151

dh # 149 Guess I did, and I’m woman enough to apologise too. Now let’s see how long brb keeps this one going.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 15 2014 17:18 utc | 152

@149 I’m sorry TicoTiger if this is boring. but brb has shown that he has no respect for b, MoA as a site or as a community as evidenced by his skirting multiple bans. His sole aim appears to be to drive people away – both old and new – with his endless personal attacks. Here he spends another many paragraphs not on anything actually related to the situation in the Ukraine, but on an apparent mistake Nora’s semantics. Now that is boring. But it is the focus of his posts the vast majority of the time. Note the differences of a debate about the issues at hand that bevin and Mr. Pragma are engaged in.
Just so you are aware, this is someone who began his “career” here by spreading the oldest anti-Russian propaganda and trying to pass off naziism as something “not so bad” who now, seemingly solely to legitimize his personal attacks – feigns concern for those fighting off the ideology he supports. Now he calls us “communists” (oh no!) as if it is 1954. It is ridiculous.
But this is someone who will abide by no one’s, not even b’s, wishes here. So what do you suggest that won’t lead to more of it?
But I understand your concerns and will hold my tongue. Despite what will naturally follow this…

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 15 2014 17:35 utc | 153

Who are these imaginary western Neo-Nazis and fascists? The only reality I see is Putin was a former KGB spy who is invading a country where half the population dislikes Russia. Yanukovych, a Kremlinbot was notoriously corrupt and the Ukraine middle class would benefit from a Pro-Eu government (and WANTS it). Putin has threatened not allowing UN inspectors to observe Russia’s vast nuclear stockpile. Why? The Wax-faced actor is a tyrant who rigs elections, the Crimean referendum doesn’t even have an option to NOT join Russia. Putin has called the dissolving of the USSR “the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century”. No Mr. Putin it was not, here is a tyrant living in the past, trying to recreate the past, and benefiting no one but himself. The biggest victims in this fiasco are innocent Russians who will sustain a worsening quality of life as a result of one man’s zeppelin size ego.
1. Russia invaded Ukraine and broke international law.
2. Putin lost any credibility when he lied on camera and claimed there were no Russian soldiers in Crimea.
3. Russia has been consistently unable to provide ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL of the right-wing sentiment it suggests is a threat to others in Ukraine.
4. In contrast, the ONLY right-wing fascist sentiments we have seen have come from ignorant pro-Russian fascists in Ukraine who are too illiterate to even understand what Fascism ACTUALLY IS.

Posted by: Haylight | Mar 15 2014 17:40 utc | 154

guest of course just proves that his dishonesty is so acute at this stage that he appears unable to make any post without at least one blatant lie in it.
For example “trying to pass off naziism as something “not so bad” “ is just a blatant lie, but what else can one expect from a proven blatant liar?
But I understand your concerns and will hold my tongue.
Posted by: guest77 | Mar 15, 2014 1:35:01 PM | 151

except, of course, as is plain for all to see – you couldn’t, and didn’t
you can’t even be honest about that much . . .

Posted by: brb | Mar 15 2014 17:47 utc | 155

Thomas, ordinarily I agree with James145. However I read both your long “spam” posts and found both interesting, if somewhat misdirecting. The second, Boris K, particularly. This heading: ‘The sheepskin is not worth dividing up’, is obviously false, else why would the US have invested $5b in the coup? Ukraine is, and always has been, the ‘bridge’ between Europe and the East (especially Russia).
It occurred to me that trying to define ‘left’ objectives/motivations etc, in both those long posts, revealed the weakness of the ‘left’ in a way that neither article mentioned (maybe hinted) which is the left is composed of people who for the most part abhor violence, will avoid it to the extent that the bulk fade away once violence starts. As Occupy’s failure demonstrated, when the left goes up against violence, violence wins EVERY time. That’s what the neoliberals/neocons have counted on from their very beginnings. When they fail, as in Syria and Venezuela right now, they don’t become discouraged, they just double-down and try again.
I hate to say it, but if the left is to re-emerge in Europe, the left will have to use violence in some way that makes clear they’ll take out key neoliberal power brokers, otherwise the neoliberal/fascist putsch will continue unabated in EZ until a “civilized” serfdom is re-established.
The only reason the ‘left’ got what they got after WWII is because the Bolshevik revolution scared the shit of elites in both Europe and US. The elites have to be scared shitless to give an inch. Right now they’re slightly scared of Venezuela – OMG, what if it succeeds?! – but only slightly. They assume they still have lots of time and resources to defeat left movements in Central/South America.
Bringing violence to the elites is the only way to turn them around.

Posted by: okie farmer | Mar 15 2014 17:49 utc | 156

Posted by: Haylight | Mar 15, 2014 1:40:58 PM | 152

For its length, that must deserve some sort of record. It does not contain a single sentence that does not disqualify itself from serious debate by its gross misuse of language, its elementary logical non sequitur, or its factual error.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Mar 15 2014 17:50 utc | 157

Very interesting development of the news I posted a couple of days ago:
Leaked documents show US Embassy in Ukraine is staging a False Flag

Evidence, including intercepted emails from “Anonymous Ukraine” and interviews with US special operations contractors, has led to the discovery of plans to stage a series of terror attacks in the Ukraine to be blamed on Russian Special Forces…
One name, “Chief Mike,” mentioned as operational coordinator of a false flag terrorist unit is known to be a retired US Navy SEAL with a background working for the US State Department and as a contractor overseeing air transit facilities in Baluchistan/Pakistan suspected of involvement in drug trafficking…
I wonder who the “friends in Washington” are. Is it Senator’s McCain and Graham? Is he acting with approval of the Secretary of Defense and Secretary of State?
Is he, as indicated, acting on behalf of “friends in Washington?” If these friends are not directly “chain of command” under authority of the President of the United States, then the actions outlined in this and other emails are, in fact, insurrection against the government of the United States…

Posted by: ProPeace | Mar 15 2014 17:52 utc | 158

To whomever it was that I sniped at #135: I’m really sorry. First off, I guess I misunderstood you but more importantly, that kind of sniping is not the norm here at MoA, and is certainly not the way I was welcomed on board. I truly hope my rudeness hasn’t discouraged you from either reading, or posting, here.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 15 2014 18:03 utc | 159

@148 – thomas. thanks for your note. i appreciate it.

Posted by: james | Mar 15 2014 18:12 utc | 160

nora #150 It was obvious that you made a tiny error of meaning that was too insignificant to even note. That brb dedicates his time to lengthy post to attacking it shows, what has been obvious for some days, he is more interested in trivial pissing matches than any substantive exchanges. Just try to ignore it, and maybe it will go away.

Posted by: ToivoS | Mar 15 2014 18:18 utc | 161

@guest77
I love how buddies stick up for one another here at MOA no matter how much they are in error. Why, it reminds me of the US Senate or any other assortment of Western war criminals. Maybe it’s something in the culture. Y’think?
So, let’s see, if I remember how this went down:
1) bevin ridiculed – not disagreed – with what I wrote and I explained myself
2) he then later called me an anti-intellectual ranter and heelariously likened my actions to those employed by evangelical charlatans and prospective mass-murderers
3) then – this is the topper – he completely lifted my thoughts – the VERY ONES he ridiculed in the beginning – and incorporated them into his own posts as if he had just thought of them
4) then I slammed him for it because that’s bullshit
5) then guest77 invokes his seemingly innate sense of American hypocrisy and accuses ME of being an embarrassment.
That about sums it up, huh? Nice. Hey, maybe he shouldn’t have tried to be such a smart-ass in the 1st place, huh? Or then tried to take my side in an argument that he had originally ridiculed me for? Or have all Westerners so completely absorbed the MO of their war criminal leaders that they can’t help but be so blatantly, ridiculously and maddeningly duplicitous – i.e., I’ll slap you, you slap me back, then I scream that you hit me first – when such duplicity is pointed out. Holy eff.
Oh, btw, I’ve just come to the original conclusion that I am an embarrassment. Bask in its wonder. Chortle.
We can continue if you like but I had meant what I said when I wrote (drops the microphone and slowly walks off the stage). I was done making a point of it but if you want to play Nuland (or is it Kerry or McCain) to my Putin(?) we can continue.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Mar 15 2014 18:18 utc | 162

ToivoS #161 Thank you. I don’t like thinking I could have discouraged someone decent from commenting, so I do think an apology was in order. I will add that it’s the first time I’ve learned a thing from that pathetic misfit troll though, and I expect it will be the last, since he’s hardly worth the time it takes to read him, much less respond. After all, whether they are just perpetually unhappy adolescents or paid agents, their whole raison d’etre is to derail fruitful discussion, so why hand them success?

Posted by: Nora | Mar 15 2014 18:25 utc | 163

I love how buddies stick up for one another here at MOA no matter how much they are in error.
Well when the end always justifies the means, and when one is convinced that one is as pure as the driven snow, as the lying-clique consider themselves to be, when you are convinced that your opinion alone is noble and all other opinions are simply Nazi-opinions, then there’s actually no such thing as error on the part of you or your friends –
Such a thing cannot ever be, since such people are 100% convinced of their own nobility and rock solid morality, and equally coonvinced that pure 100% evil motivates all competing opinions, therefore it follows that any and all actions of theirs simply MUST be equally noble
In this the lying-clique (eg: guest, ToiboiS, bevin Copeland etc) mirror precisely the twisted “logic” of religious fundamentalists

Posted by: brb | Mar 15 2014 18:36 utc | 164

you misinterpreted someone not once but twice – attacked them for it not once but twice and even told them to get lost, despite having no right to do so – and somehow someone else is the bad guy?
dear oh dear – this dishonesty thingy seems contagious
Unlike others here though , you do at least have the decency to admit error on your part, this time at least, which is certainly to your credit, and which puts you streets ahead of any of the people who have flocked to offer aid and comfort after your horrifically traumatic experience of having someone point out that you unnecessarily attacked someone not once but twice (and in rather mild terms too tbh)

Posted by: brb | Mar 15 2014 18:45 utc | 165

@156: the US may have invested 5 Billion, but it wouldn’t be the first time that an investment fails. Boris K. unexcitedly describes a situation on crimea and in other parts of the Ukraine where the actors on the ground against the armed gangs flexibely try to avoid direct violent confrontations, more acting in the original chinese taiji quan way. The question is not about using violence, it’s about raising mass conscience, otherwise you would just imitate the right sectors intimidation policy.

Posted by: thomas | Mar 15 2014 18:57 utc | 166

JSorrentine
NOW, the new bevin, has come around – after all the sturm und drang – to my way of thinking and states that it’s NOT really just incompetent lurching around but “the US can be seeing as always pushing it’s aggression because it has nothing to lose” which sure sounds an awful like someone who has a PLAN, right?
bad logic. being relentless isn’t really a plan.

Posted by: truthbetold | Mar 15 2014 19:29 utc | 167

Here is McCain in the NYT on “not looking weak”:

[Russia] is a gas station run by a corrupt, autocratic regime. And eventually, Russians will come for Mr. Putin in the same way and for the same reasons that Ukrainians came for Viktor F. Yanukovych.

It’s really astonishing. To be perceived as strong by somebody you first insult them and then you threaten them with violence. Grandpa is a real psychopath.

Posted by: ess emm | Mar 15 2014 19:30 utc | 168

Israel is run by the type of Jew which believes a country with a political class indifferent to the rabbinical “Chosen”
construct and whose political class creates an esthetic in which majority folkways can flourish, is likely to be a country fostering
“genocide” (read, opportunity to assimilate.)
Then there is the fact Russia happens to be in at least soft axis with forces Israel considers more dangerous than militant
branches of Sunnism just now.

Posted by: truthbetold | Mar 15 2014 19:40 utc | 169

Thomas, raising mass consciousness doesn’t work. When you’re dealing with a “criminal” US govt, as JSorrentine so aptly describes it in his angry posts, you’ll lose every time. As one of my mentors at university once remarked to me, “If you’re dealing with people who lie, cheat and steal, and have impunity, they’ll beat you every time.” Why, in US elections do masses of people vote against their best interests over and over? Maybe not enough raised “mass conscience”? Or so thoroughly propagandized they have no idea what their best interest is? I think you’re naïve if you believe raising mass consciousness is ‘the answer’. When Putin went into Georgia, did he go in to raise ‘mass conscience’? Nope, he met violence with violence.

Posted by: okie farmer | Mar 15 2014 19:57 utc | 170

but violence works? against whom or what? you want civil war or more? obviously you don’t understand what I’m saying – you need the majority of people or you will be acting on the same level like the fascist gangs or Yanucovic’s old regime. And don’t tell me about this and that historic example – it’s about the Ukraine and crimea and neighbouring regions TODAY and how to avoid an even more bloody confrontation

Posted by: thomas | Mar 15 2014 20:13 utc | 171

short addition to kalithea’s post up top (no 9) kinda simple, obvious..
The aims of USA neo-cons and neo-libs (for lack of a better description), Zionism, neo-Nazi-ism, the EU (as US poodle or self-driven oppressive actor), and many others throughout history, meld:
1) the creation of ethnically or religiously etc. ‘pure’ states, with the ‘superior’ people in charge and often an out-group (an enemy within) which serves to focus and thus divert hatred, which may be accompanied by a thrust for expansion
2) the desire to dominate, oppress, destroy, devour, stemming from many mixed motives: ordinary sadism or gangsterism, economic rapine, personal triumph and self-worth, old enemies decimated, access to key resources, territorial conquest, supporting the arms industry / corporations, getting on the money trail, etc.
The two somewhat contrasted motive categories, as I have split them here, are aligned as to desired result (domination / destruction) and as to method (jackboots.)
The rest, or the details (such as defense of Jews against anti-semitism or more, worse, in Europe, Ukr. or anywhere) falls by the way side or fulfills other minor functions such as posturing as victim for sympathy gains, special conditions, etc. Zionism – a national revival movement (as it is called) built on ‘religion’ supports on the face of it a Jewish Homeland but does not thereby necessarily defend, side with, or protect Jews. Nor, as we have seen in Ukr. are Jews in upper, authority, spokesman circles prompt to object to, oppose, blatant anti-semitism (provided one accepts this is the case in Ukr.) Because it is not about that, but about the powerful who oppress the weak, with all the cards they can play.

Posted by: Noirette | Mar 15 2014 20:37 utc | 172

Thomas, “but violence works?”, yes. I cite the 65 countries Nora and others compiled on an earlier thread in which US has used violence to overthrow elected govts or just despots they no longer favor. You don’t need the majority of the people, not even close, look at Ukraine, that’s not an “historic example”, it’s NOW!

Posted by: okie farmer | Mar 15 2014 20:47 utc | 173

thomas
MoA is not a dump site for propaganda shit.
You believe in the power and usefulness of this or that antifa movement? Great. Send them your money. Even put a link and some account info here – not that it’s worth anything but hey, your rights shall be be respected.
But we also have rights. And we’re certainly not here at MoA to get bombarded by multiple long propaganda pieces.
I feel particularly offended by those pieces of shit (you dumped here) suggesting that “the eastern and southern regions” are particularly nazi infested. Furthermore you dare to entertain the proposal of Germans (of all!) to fight Nazis in ukraine?
How about first cleaning your own German Nazi mess?! How about first cleaning your secret services, your police, even your state police who happened to actively and in most dirty ways supporting Nazi, even known murders, even worse, your authorities co-operated those murders.
Let me set you straight, Mr German propaganda agent, thomas.
While the Nazi voters percentage is usually given as between 10% and 15% for ukraine by western Nazi supporting msm, the truth is quite different.
The correct numbers are > 15%, often even 25% and more in *western* ukraine with *western* ukraine hot spots of > 33% (e.g. lvov) – in the eastern and southern parts you play to be so concerned about the numbers are within the margin of error, i.e. around 1%.
@all
I suggest we refrain from quoting a lot from msm, twitter, etc., in particular lenghty stuff or series of tweets.
Why? Because OF COURSE the ukraine nazi and thug regime supporters in the wezt are and will be firing their propaganda cannons in berserk mode. Dumping or even discussing that here at MoA will merely distract and ruin reasonable discussions.
What troubles me more than all the vain and rotten propaganda shit is the fact that for a second time protesters and policemen have been killed by nazi sturmtruppen attacks. That in itself is sad, disgusting and dangerously explosive; but there is a second danger, namely that Russia feels ever more pressure to protect our compatriots and ethnic Russians.
I personally wouldn’t have the slightest problem with Russia going in and taking care of the problem the hard way but it would, of course, be abused by the weztern nazi friends to make Russia look evil (about which I wouldn’t care neither but Russias government would).

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 15 2014 22:24 utc | 174

Rowan Berkeley (126)

Mr P, I hope you realise that in her comment (now #76, for some reason), Nora was undoubtedly referencing Israel Adam Shamir, the noted anti-Zionist columnist, not Yitzhak Shamir, the Stern Gang terrorist, erstwhile Israel PM, and arch zionist.

I have to admit, no, I didn’t. My fault.
Gladly that is irrelevant for my answer to Nora (and the core of her question) except for the last sentence. I apologize for any inconvenience I may have caused.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 15 2014 22:29 utc | 175

@fairleft: I’m not really so concerned with what Petri thinks, though I’m sure we could discuss the semantics of calling “the myth of the Holodomor a hoax” as we might discuss what Ahmadinejad meant when he discussed the holocaust in terms of a “myth.”
My main beef is that you have accused the Soviet government of denying that the event ever happened. And this is not true. That’s all. And it to say that adds just as much to the myth as saying it was a genocide.

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 15 2014 22:39 utc | 176

guest77 (176)

we might discuss what Ahmadinejad meant when he discussed the holocaust in terms of a “myth.”

But it *is* a myth. Possibly a myth that could turn out to be true if properly examined.
But until it’s properly examined, according to well established scientific standards and in an unbiased way, it’s a myth.
That’s the definition of “myth”. Some story that is widely known and that has not been properly examined and proven true or false.
And there is more. If certain not insignificant details of a story are proven wrong then that facts adds weight to the assumption the story is a myth and not fact.
Well noted, my desire isn’t to deny (or to declare true) the holocaust story; doing that one would by definition be excluded from the group of credible observers. My point is merely that the holocaust has not been examine properly and scientifically and unbiased, and that there are (even major) factors indicating that the holocaust is at least in part a myth, i.e. not what and as it is being told.
I might be wrong (I don’t speak Farsi) but from what I know Achmadinedschad did *not* deny the holocaust but he did invite to properly examine in an unbiased way.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 15 2014 22:56 utc | 177

guest77: I thought that Petri was stating that the Soviet Union and its supporters had said that. Misled by Petri’s words, if I implied that the Soviet government had denied that there was a major famine I apologize.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 16 2014 8:02 utc | 178

@bevin (89)
CP is a daily habit of mine, too. I agree, it is always great to see MoA followed elsewhere. I personally discovered MoA through a combination of Pepe Escobar via a Scott Horton interview (and ATimes articles) and Marcy at Emptywheel. Speaking of, I also enjoy your comments on her blog, too! 🙂

Posted by: Jessica S | Mar 16 2014 15:38 utc | 179

@179 Thanks Jessica S.
I found out about this site from Helena Cobban’s Just World News, some years ago. As you say this is the way “bars” like this one fill up.
What keeps them full is the sharpness of our host’s analysis which makes this a place where originality of thought and intellectual rigour are as easy to find as a good glass of Bourbon is not.
But we really have to thank the Main Stream Media which, during the past decade has so utterly discredited itself, flinging off every scrap of the mask of objectivity and fair mindedness with which it used to obscure its propagandising, that sensible people now only visit it, as Russians used to visit Pravda, to read between the lines. As to the analysis they give us of events such as these in Ukraine, it takes a strong stomach to watch a semi skilled and clearly diseased prostitute licking genitals for a living.
Re J Sorrentine:
“….3) then – this is the topper – he completely lifted my thoughts – the VERY ONES he ridiculed in the beginning – and incorporated them into his own posts as if he had just thought of them..”
There is a grain of truth in this. But only a grain. As J knows very well I quoted him and refuted, in my view, what I quoted. So far as I recall that was clear by the punctuation or language I used. I note that Whitney either did not reproduce my punctuation or mistook what I wrote.
I often find J Sorrentine’s contributions informative and his eloquence moving. I rarely agree with him but if I am right more often than I am wrong, it must be clear that I am very often mistaken. To use a baseball figure I’d say J bats about .285 whereas I do a little better. He may see things differently.
I must say I am offended by the suggestion, which I am sure that J will now regret, that I stole his thoughts.
I am sorry to take up so much space on such a trivial matter but I have the greatest respect for J.Sorrentine and many others with whom I regularly disagree. In the heat of argument we sometimes say nasty things-I do anyway- but the only people whom I do not respect are the Hasbara style trolls, such as brb, who are concerned only to derail discussions, discredit honest arguments and comfort the ruling class in its evil endeavours. For them I have nothing but contempt.
I apologise for leaving this matter so long but I have been away from a computer since Friday night.

Posted by: bevin | Mar 17 2014 0:38 utc | 180

“…Jessica@71 I read Counterpunch everyday. Except today! Thanks for the tip: they got the quote wrong though- crediting me with a quote from someone else here, with whom I was arguing- but it is good to see that b’s blog is getting the attention it merits. Now, if we can only keep the trolls away…”
There it is J Sorrentine. The “someone else” was probably you, it was certainly someone else. And anyone with nothing better to do can probably trawl through the archive and recreate the situation.
My advice, at risk of seeming insufferably demure, is to leave the matter there, because it really is supremely unimportant.

Posted by: bevin | Mar 17 2014 0:48 utc | 181

because it really is supremely unimportant.
So unimportant you had to make 2 posts to set us all straight on this supremely unimportant point?
well you were correct at least about the insufferable part – and if you only indulged in honest arguments I could not discredit them
for them I have nothing but contempt.
feelin’s mutual bevin/”johan” 😉

Posted by: brb | Mar 17 2014 1:08 utc | 182