MoA - Ukraine: A State Falling Apart?

March 14, 2014

Ukraine: A State Falling Apart?

A British lecturer, Paul Vickers, who (allegedly) has been living in Ivano-Frankivsk, a city in west Ukraine with some 200,000 inhabitants, for two plus years, writes about a recent march by the Right Sector fascists there and the general local news.

We find mob rule by competing militia, heavy pressure on politicians and bureaucrats and threats of "lustration" which means that anyone favoring the wrong parties will be thrown out of their public jobs. We remember how well things went in after de-baathification and after all the professional administrators and security folks were pushed from their jobs in Iraq.

This report states that initially today there were some fifty men all from Self-Defence (it also has better photos than me) blocking the street, while Right Sector also turned up in the early afternoon in smallish numbers before the big march around 16:00. Speaking to the press, the Self-Defence issued a statement stating that they do not want to have in a position of authority in the police a man who refuses for now to undergo lustration, i.e. a check on his past. Shortly afterwards, the new head of the regional administration agreed to make all administration workers undergo lustration and barred any ex-Party of Regions figures from taking up posts. Then a little bit later, the new head of the regional administration found that his office had been blockaded by Self-Defence and ‘local businessmen’, according to this report. Together they made a series of demands, including cancellation of certain taxes on wealth and various aspects of certification for motor vehicles and business-related issues. There was ‘Tax Maidan‘ in November 2010 which saw the small-and-medium-sized business community protest against a new tax code, so this protest in Ivano-Frankivsk could be seen in that context.

However, the approach to getting your point across seems very much in the spirit of the post-revolutionary times where there is an evident degree of mob rule and rule by force. The problem is somewhat compounded by the local press which happily write that these activists speak, as the above-linked report wrote, ‘in the name of the city community’, becoming a local echo of Right Sector’s claims to speak ‘for the Ukrainian people’. An ex-student I encountered today outside the police HQ as she passed by from university on her way home said to me that “they don’t speak for us”, referring to Right Sector. While the issue of the police head was not something she had contemplated, she expressed great concern with the way local democracy was functioning. There is a clear contrast with the rather impressive local council meeting of 26 November 2013 when the still-functioning council took important decisions and voted in the open air, in front of a more representative group of the local community. However, now there is clearly a growing vacuum in local power structures, it seems that it is possible to seek to impose by force or by threats – the blockaders of the regional governor’s office have threatened to block major road routes in Ivano-Frankivsk region on Friday if their demands are not heard – decisions upon a weak, nascent administration.

This all shows a dangerous development. A state that now lacks the will and capacity, and soon also the money, to assert itself against unwieldy minorities. When (not if) this state falls apart, the "west" would itself lucky if Russa were to take responsible for the eastern parts.

Posted by b on March 14, 2014 at 14:04 UTC | Permalink

Comments

I will post two links that explain everything there is a to know about "Ukraine" and Ukrainian nationalism.

The first, a Western article from 2010 quite correctly equates "Ukraine" with the Holodomor. For Ukraine the Holodomor is like the Holocaust for Jews. Without the Holocaust the state of Israel would cease to exist. The same goes for Ukraine, without the Holodomor there is no independent Ukraine.

Deleting the Holodomor: Ukraine Unmakes Itself – Alexander J. Motyl, 2010
The first thing Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich did after his February 25 inauguration was delete the link to the Holodomor on the president’s official Web site. Yanukovich’s predecessor, Viktor Yushchenko, had made the Holodomor—the famine of 1932–33 produced by Joseph Stalin and responsible for the deaths of millions of Ukrainian peasants—into a national issue, promoting what Czech novelist Milan Kundera famously called “the struggle of memory over forgetting” as part of his attempt to move the country toward democracy. That Yanukovich turned his back so dramatically on this movement to rehabilitate Ukraine’s tragic past indicated the extent to which the recent election was as much about identity as it was about politics.

This was no accident. Thanks to the 2004 Orange Revolution, Ukrainian national identity has become synonymous with democracy and the West. And thanks to Vladimir Putin’s construction of a newly assertive Russian state, Russian identity has unfortunately become associated, as in Soviet times, with authoritarianism and empire. Yanukovich’s Party of Regions has its electoral base in Ukraine’s southeastern rust belt, the Donbas; the region produced, and is still proud of, both Communist Party leader Leonid Brezhnev and Stalin’s favorite proletarian, the coal miner extraordinaire Aleksei Stakhanov. It names its streets after Stalinists, displays statues of the Soviet dictator, and retains its Soviet-era identity as a Russian-speaking enclave with an authoritarian political culture. When president-elect Yanukovich decided to turn back the clock on Yushchenko’s Ukraine and reestablish its role as a client of Moscow, it was natural that he should begin by shutting down discussion of what historian Robert Conquest called Stalin’s “terror famine.”

The second is a Canadian book from 1987 that exposes the Holodomor myth as a hoax.

Fraud, Famine, and Fascism - The Ukrainian Genocide Myth from Hitler to Harvard – Douglas Tottle, 1987
This book documents how and why fraudulent stories about the Ukrainian famine of the 1930s made the presses worldwide and have become accepted as fact by almost everyone, despite the fact that they are provably false. The stories of millions of deaths caused by famine in Ukraine in 1933 and 1934, supposedly caused by the effects of the Soviet system, were fabricated by Nazi propagandists in their propaganda campaigns against Bolshevism. The spread of these stories to America took route through the presses of William Randolph Hearst, who has also since been proven, as I have documented on this website, to have been working in collaboration with the Nazis and publishing Nazi propaganda in mainstream American publications throughout the later half of the 1930s and into the 1940s.

These fabrications, which are well documented in this book, have become almost completely accepted as facts by Americans, and these fabrications have been repeatedly used, and are still used, by politicians despite the fact that they are provably false and were provably produced by a Nazi conspirator. The fact that William Randolph Hearst was conspiring with the Nazis during the 1930s is proven outside of this book, and is a part of official American government record, yet his fabricated publications about the Ukrainian famine are still referenced as fact today.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Mar 14 2014 14:51 utc | 1

Just another failed state scenario? Could be, but, I'm sure many people in the West/NATO, will not be too disappointed. It's another country for the "Global Plantation". One more opportunity for the disaster capitalists. IMO, only Russia can keep that from happening. The workers of the globe are under siege.

Posted by: ben | Mar 14 2014 15:04 utc | 2

Would somebody tell Bremer to put down the goddamn paintbrushes and get back to work, ffs!!!

Posted by: JSorrentine | Mar 14 2014 15:13 utc | 3

Its sad that the workers of the world have to hope for CAPITALIST Russia to do something to protect them...

But its better than nothing, and infinitely better than making a deal with the Devil.

Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 14 2014 15:16 utc | 4

Video from TRNN:

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=11553

Posted by: ben | Mar 14 2014 15:17 utc | 5

More about Vasyl Abramiv
Ivano-Frankivsk City Council awards honorary citizen titles to Bandera and Shukhevych – May 2010

[see page 18-19] June 26, 2011 - Arrested and imprisoned were 14 members, who were accused of various crimes but questioned in the December 31, 2010, detonation of the Joseph Stalin statue on the front porch of the Communist Party head-quarters in Zaporizhia. Tryzub (Trident) denied any involvementin that attack, but several of the imprisoned members, including 31-year-old Roman Khmara and 26-year-old Vasyl Abramiv, admitted to participating in the December 28, 2010, vandalism of the Stalin statue, in which they sawed off its head. But the Tryzub activists denied their involvement in the list of other alleged crimes, particularly the detonation of the Stalin statue of which they were all accused. Many of them resisted capitulating to the beatings and torture that they say they endured at the hands of police, who allegedly wanted false confessions from them. The arrests were made to pressure the Tryzub members to confess to other crimes, stated Volodymyr Yavorsky, executive director of the Ukrainian Helsinki Union for Human Rights (UHHRU). [History Tryzub in Kyivan Rus]

…
Mr. Abramiv confirmed that he was beaten, threatened and pressured to admit to detonating the Stalin statue, as were many of the others arrested. He said one prison cell had a rat that was eventually caught, and other had wet and filthy mattresses. During the press conference organized by prosecutors, he was instructed to answer two questions and refrain from saying anymore. “I wrote everything down – who beat me, in which office and what floor, and what happened there,” Mr. Abramiv said. “But they refused to press criminal charges for lack of evidence.”

○ Dnepropetrovsk hit with four blasts, government denounces "act of terrorism” – April 2012

Posted by: Oui | Mar 14 2014 15:23 utc | 6

@3 that is beyond hilarious, maybe I'll order one! What is it with these neo-con-ts and painting?

Posted by: thirsty | Mar 14 2014 15:28 utc | 7

I recently read Douglas Tottle's book and heartily recommend it. It helped me understand more of the complex history of Ukraine. It always amazes me (even though I should know better) how the truth can always be found by diligent research. Sadly most people have been so brainwashed by MSM propaganda following a lifetime of faulty education that they fall again and again in the east-west, right-left, Putin-Obama, etc. knee-jerk traps.

Oh well, as P. T. Barnum (incorrectly attributed) supposedly said: "There's a sucker born every minute." What he probably said was "There's a customer born every minute."

The psychopaths consider both sayings equal and laugh all the way to the bank, while the innocent and ignorant pay the bills.

Posted by: TicoTiger | Mar 14 2014 15:39 utc | 8

Nato presence, U.S. influence and advancing U.S. hegemony trumps all and America’s lawmakers and executive leadership could care less who helps them get there: Al Qaeda in Libya and Syria, ultra-national fascist extremists in Eastern Europe, you name it, as long as Russia comes out severely diminished in the Middle East and Europe.

But, America isn’t the only party in this willing to compromise its moral integrity “embracing” extremism and fascism by looking the other way to achieve its goal and I must return to this question.: Why did Ukraine's Jewish leaders lambaste Putin in an open letter after he tried to warn them that anti-Semitic fascist elements led the coup and were trying to take over Ukraine?

Despite the fact that Ukraine's Right Sector leader, Dmytro acting as Ukraine's paramilitary in the newly- imposed government, idolizes Stepan Bandera who helped the Nazis with their pogroms against Jews in Ukraine, Ukraine's Jews turned on Putin slamming his motives in Ukraine. Here’s why:

Speaking to the Jewish Agency leadership, Sharansky said that the organization is "in constant contact” with the leadership of the Ukrainian Jewish community and are following the events closely.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/.premium-1.575808

Natan Sharansky’s an Israeli politician, head of Israel’s most important NGO and also a former Russian accused and sentenced to prison in the Soviet Union for treason and spying for the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency. He was later released in 1986 in a U.S.- Russian spy swap organized during Reagan’s 2nd term.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/jul/08/spy-swaps-history-russia

Israel’s top NGO headed by Sharansky himself recently increased financial and other support to Ukraine’s Jewish Community. So there are very close ties between Ukraine’s Jewish Community and Israel.

The Jewish community of Ukraine numbers about 200,000, ... Another 340,000 Ukrainian Jews have immigrated to Israel since the early 1990s.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/diaspora/.premium-1.577446

Ukraine’s Jewish leaders are therefore taking their cues from America's Zionist ally, Israel, no doubt their benefactor.

In turn, the U.S. is Zionism's major benefactor, therefore Jews, particularly Zionist Jews, have a huge stake in U.S. hegemony. Zionists work to advance U.S. imperialism and most Jews in the Diaspora support the goals of Zionism. Zionists bask in America's favor on different levels and get to dictate U.S. foreign policy. Some time ago, during Truman’s Presidency, and especially during Eisenhower’s, Zionists must have recognized the supreme advantage of latching on to U.S. foreign policy and its hegemonic agenda. As U.S. military and economic power advances, consequently, so does Zionism's advantage and influence.

Therefore, it's not surprising that these Jewish Leaders in constant contact with Israel and its top NGO headed by a former Russian dissident are willing to overlook the threat of anti-Semitism in Ukraine and thumb their nose at Putin for the ultimate prize of advancing Zionist power and influence. As the U.S. expands militarily and economically, Zionists are right there piggybacking on its expansion and reaping the advantages of American hegemony enjoying greater protection against criticism globally while they're assured of billions in aid for Israel, a constant U.S. veto, and the freedom to deny the rights of Palestinians indefinitely and steal their land with total impunity fulfilling their own expansionist agenda. So ignoring the messy detail of the growing threat of fascism in Ukraine and shunning Putin ultimately helps the Zionist agenda.

The U.S. and Zionism march forward in lock step globally and Putin now realizes just how synchronized and tight these two advancing forces are, and he might not be calling on the Jewish community any time soon to do them any favors.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 14 2014 15:42 utc | 9

US are getting real desperate and the racist Estland minister that keep lying is going nuts.
http://presstv.com/detail/2014/03/14/354659/kerry-meets-lavrov-in-london-on-ukraine/
Meanwhile russian channels are deleted from being aired in Ukaine, another proof that the minority of russians is threatened.

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 14 2014 15:49 utc | 10

I have a feeling the neo-Nazism of western Ukraine is a growing concern in the mainstream press. In a puff piece about European integration in the business section of the NYT today there is this passage:

Lviv has learned to adjust to changing rule, from the Austro-Hungarian Empire to the Nazis to the Soviets. Today its cobblestone streets and grand churches reflect a blending of styles. While it is considered Ukraine’s most European city, the nationalist message of the far right Svoboda Party has appeal here, brushing aside a history of anti-Semitism.

It doesn't seem like much but the incendiary comments (comparing Jews to "filth") of Right Sector and Svoboda leaders are part of the public record. The fact that Right Sector and Svoboda occupy leadership positions in the putsch government cannot be denied, and neither can their fascism and anti-semitism. It is going to be a continuing problem for the West.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Mar 14 2014 16:04 utc | 11

b - thanks for your post.. it seems anarchy is happening and these groups involved in hostile mob activity don't care much or any, about the idea of democracy.. living in ukraine at the moment must be hell.. i can't see ukraines situation getting better any time soon.. if you can't be friends with the country next door, i think that says a lot about your chance of being friends to countries much further away.. 'being used' is all i can think of..

@1 and @8 - thanks for both of those informative posts.

Posted by: james | Mar 14 2014 16:07 utc | 12

@10 - mike - what do you think of the conclusion in @8 kathilea's 2nd to last paragraph?

Posted by: james | Mar 14 2014 16:14 utc | 13

As stated by James in 11:

"@1 and @8 - thanks for both of those informative posts."

Posted by: ben | Mar 14 2014 16:21 utc | 14

James@12: I think kalithea is on the money. I think the U.S./EU will continue to support the neo-Nazis. But more and more people will gradually become aware of what Ukrainian nationalism actually stands for -- anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-semitic -- the polar opposite of the "Pussy Riot demographic" that the West is trying to persuade to support its Ukrainian folly. This -- hopefully! -- will lead to an erosion of what little support Obama currently has for this latest neocon escapade.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Mar 14 2014 16:26 utc | 15

@James

"it seems anarchy is happening..."

Can we not conflate anarchism and fascism please?

Posted by: Rojo | Mar 14 2014 16:40 utc | 16

The sanctions against what by the way? What have russia done? Nothing! Sanctions=acts of war against Russia.

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 14 2014 17:00 utc | 17

@14- thanks mike.

@15 - sorry about that. i think i understand the differences and sometimes the end result looks the same, but the motives are very different.

@16 - it is called bullying.. it is supposed to produce a response that helps encourage more bullying.. it is what the usa and the banking cartel seem to do automatically whenever their cartel is challenged..

Posted by: james | Mar 14 2014 17:06 utc | 18

I think that the strategy not *of* Russia (who would have preferred a non-broken ukraine) but supported by Russia who understandably feels responsible for the well being of ethnic Russians in ukraine is roughly the following:

Russia wants, if any possible, avoid to directly act in ukraine.
Therefore Russia will (allow for) repeating the Crimea tactics, i.e. the support of local movements and forces. Once Crimea has left ukraine on sunday the anti-revolution will spread more decidedly to other eastern & southern regions, probably with Odessa being among the first as it happens to be strongly defended by the terrorist kiev government and also has very high strategic significance.
Formally, those regions will, inspired by what happens in Crimea, repeat their request to join Crimea. Then Crimea will help with troups, material, and other support.

One reason Russia will be quite happy with that development is the fact that Russia does not want those regions (incl. Crimea) to formally become a part of Russia. While it would be difficult to have Crimea become a proper state (for instance due to its small size) it would be quite reasonable for a union of southern and eastern regions to form a new state around the current Crimea core. Of course that new state would be very close to Russia in every regard and also would receive very considerable support.

I think that Russias strong mil. muscle playing not close to ukraines border but close enough is another indicator supporting my interpretation. While in Crimea Russian forces already were on location, this time they will only be near and strikingly obviously ready to engage - and - there will be a rather strong base of Crimean forces to support other regions, knowing full well that, if really needed, some thousand Russian air assault troups could be there within 2 or 3 hours.

I strongly assume that todays meeting between kerry and foreign policy grand master Lavrov basically was zusas last desperate attempt to somehow push Russia to let zusa/zeu have a free hand in ukrain. Sure enough Lavrov told kerry to nuland himself.

Obviously the outcome isn't very interesting as its all but formally implemented. What might be interesting, however, is the question if and how kiev terrorists will try to fight against losing more regions, possibly with some outside help (zusa mercenaries, kosovo or chechen terrorists and alike). One specifically interesting point is whether ukrainian ships will really turn against their colleagues or even the vastly superior Russian navy. I assume that some few ships might stay neutral or even fight (assuming the sailors will not turn against kiev loyal officers) but the majority will first keep out of fights and then join Crimea.

And (I know I might sound crazy) I'm still expecting some elite forces of and around Berkut to engage in a decapitation mission in kiev.

Last but not least I'm getting closer and closer to the assumption that zeu will sooner or later and rather sooner break or at least strongly fraction and find their zeuro zone breaking.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 14 2014 17:18 utc | 19

Ukraine historically is a great place for anarchism.

But this now is not about history.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 14 2014 17:26 utc | 20

@14 Mike Maloney

I believe it's become very clear, and the past 10 years have confirmed and underscored this fact, that: the U.S. has lost all moral authority and the whole world knows it and even the rousing speaker Obama, who the world once trusted and imagined was the African American equivalent of a John or Robert Kennedy turned out to be a laughable imitation, a puppet and casualty of America's misguided quest for hegemony at the expense of moral conduct, the rule of law and what Americans value most: their constitutional freedoms.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 14 2014 17:55 utc | 21

Mr. Pragma@20: "Last but not least I'm getting closer and closer to the assumption that zeu will sooner or later and rather sooner break or at least strongly fraction and find their zeuro zone breaking."

I agree. It's either that or war -- economic or military. Fracturing of the alliance precedes that I think.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Mar 14 2014 18:25 utc | 22

#1 Petri: Stalin's great famine killed many millions across the Soviet Union. Only the old Soviet Union and its hangers on ever considered it a myth. But the Ukrainian nationalist position, that it was a genocide directed against Ukrainians, is equally mythical. Promotion of the second myth is probably a deliberate effort to drive a wedge between Russia-leaning and West-leaning Ukrainians.

Yanukovych: "The Holodomor was in Ukraine, Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan. It was the result of Stalin's totalitarian regime. But it would be wrong and unfair to recognize the Holodomor as an act of genocide against one nation."

Medvedev: “We do not condone the repression carried out by the Stalinist regime against the entire Soviet people. But to say that it was aimed at the destruction of Ukrainians means going against the facts and trying to give a nationalist subtext to a common tragedy.”

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 14 2014 19:06 utc | 23

There's a really fatuous article in The Guardian today
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/14/crimean-referendum

What is interesting is the enormous weight of critical comments underneath it. The comments themselves contain the usual complement of anti-Putin drivel from trolls and those born trolling (a significant portion of the population in class ridden Britain) but the "approval" rating show overwhelming cynicism over US motives.

The WSWS has an entirely justified attack on the "theorist" of the Social Worker/IS tendency Alex Callinicos.

Posted by: bevin | Mar 14 2014 19:15 utc | 24

bevin

fatuous, is what the guardian, le monde, libération, la repubblica excel in

analysis, they have not provided for a considerable time

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 14 2014 19:40 utc | 25

I notice the U.S has dodges the question of legality of the Ukrainian government. http://dissidentvoice.org/2014/03/is-the-new-ukrainian-government-legal/

Posted by: Tom Murphy | Mar 14 2014 19:44 utc | 26

bevin

From what I hear that trend is also quite strong in Germany. My partner told me that quite usually she finds a high percentage of the comments highly critical and openly distrusting the medias "reporting". She also told me that the German national television since quite some time even uses tricks such as hiding comments behind some extra link and shows only one or two very favourable comments supporting the official lies. A friend even experienced "moderation" that is, his unfavourable but perfectly polite comment was simply erased.

While this might sound like just trivia it isn't. From what I know the Germans have a strong tendency to believe and trust in the authorities and media, so this development is actually quite significant.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 14 2014 19:45 utc | 27

Hi, b...

Looks like you missed an ending [/blockquote] in the original. Makes the main page look a bit strange. Otherwise, thanks for another excellent post.

Posted by: Dr. Wellington Yueh | Mar 14 2014 19:56 utc | 28

bevin: The comment section counter-narrative against the Guardian's neocon/neoliberal/anti-Russian line was and is so strong that it has necessitated, at least that's my sense, new Guardian op-eds that (unsuccessfully) answer or attack the ferocious ridicule and evidence found in the comment sections.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 14 2014 19:57 utc | 29

@8 Actually, Israel is becoming less popular with diaspora jews. And anyway it doesnt help anyone if you try to conflate zionism with diaspora jews. Antisemitism does the Anti-Zionist movement no favors.

I will say one thing though: If you were to say most rich and influential diaspora jews are zionists, that would probably be correct...

Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 14 2014 20:22 utc | 30

@15 Anarchy is not anarchism... Anarchism is not anarchy.

Its not anarchistic in Ukraine right now, but it is anarchic. Understand?

Realize that the words are different. #8s post is correct.

Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 14 2014 20:25 utc | 31

@14 Mike Maloney

I think it can be safely assumed that the US government will do nothing about the Ukie-fascists unless by some highly unlikely train of events they threaten to derail the Imperial Project. US policy is ruled by public relations, and short of Privat Sektor setting up death camps for Jews (and only Jews, the others don't matter), American public opinion will remain anaesthetized. They are too uninformed, and too beaten down to do anything on their own. There is no countervailing power in the US, to use one of Galbraith's old phrases. The only one is resistance of the public to a land war that involves conscription. Drones away!

Posted by: Knut | Mar 14 2014 20:27 utc | 32

#19

Anarchism is not anarchy, and anarchy is not anarchism. Dont conflate the two.

Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 14 2014 20:35 utc | 33

OT but very funny:

"HMS Argyll fired a torpedo by mistake during a training drill at the Devonport dockyard in Plymouth south west England, where nuclear submarines are also docked." (Russia Today)

Is there some kind of competition going on between zato forces?

zusa general, proud "We have our newest F-22 jets falling out of the sky because the pilots can't breathe!"

zuk general, not impressed "That's nothing. We have our frigates fire torpedoes at our nuclear subs"

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 14 2014 20:36 utc | 34

Stock market in the US now down by US warmongering. The leaders in west really are stupid!

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 14 2014 20:46 utc | 35

I'm the author of the post cited. Cheers for all the extra traffic and interesting comments.
http://uauk.wordpress.com/2014/03/14/rally-season-the-people-community-xfactor/ Here's a link to my latest post which suggests that Right Sector might be trying to take over with mob rule but they don't enjoy any popular legitimacy, despite claiming to speak for 'the people'.

Posted by: UA_UK_ Lecturer | Mar 14 2014 21:04 utc | 36

#35: Great work UK Lecturer, but you be careful out there, ya hear?!

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 14 2014 21:07 utc | 37

They could have learned the lesson with Iran.

Sure, they harmed Iran, but they didn't succeed in breaking it. And it costs to the weztern nation, too and dearly. In France, for instance, their automobile industrie suffered severely and thousands lost their job.

Even worse - and way worse - lays in the future because Iran will be extremely hesitating to allow zato companies into Iran, after all an 80 Mio. people market.

Trying that game with Russia is outright stupid and masochistic.

For one, they'll drive gas prices UP. And then, say in October (and rest assured that zeu will lift the sanctions in time) Russia will find out that there are "technical problems" with their ukraine pipelines. While Russia had some good will and lots of patience with the zeu negotiations, they now will dictate whatever conditions they please. And sure enough, they'll add any costs incurred by the sanctions to the gas bill.
Furthermore western corporations have VERY major business interests. exxon alone has invested heavily to exploit Russian hydrocarbon reserves to the tune of zus$ 500 bln.
I'm absolutely certain that Russia will find another partner for that business, if they still want one that is.
Russia has resources that are in high demand. zeu can be replaced relatively easy (the investments for pipelines that are needed to transport "zeu" gas to another customer are expensive but worth every penny considering the money made by selling the gas).

I also have some more very interesting information on that issue, hinted at yesterday by Rogosin, but I just today learned that nobody here likes my posts, so I won't bother you with that information.

Posted by: PM Netanyahu | Mar 14 2014 21:09 utc | 38

Petri, Motyl is a well established anti-Russia propagandist. He's being rolled out all over US mags, two pieces in The Atlantic, one an interview, one an article, referenced in The New Yorker, and elsewhere. Russiaphobia is popular in MSM, you know. As Steve Cohen commented, "he is wrong".

Posted by: okie farmer | Mar 14 2014 21:15 utc | 39

Oops.

The post above (37) was obviously from me.
PM Netanyahu was only needed to comfort some retards in another thread.

Btw, Thanks, UA_UK_Lecturer (35)

It was already clear anyway that the kiev thugs did by no means speak for "the ukrainians". But it's good and probably helpful to have it again from a westerner living there.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 14 2014 21:15 utc | 40

@29 Massinissa

it doesnt help anyone if you try to conflate zionism with diaspora jews. Antisemitism does the Anti-Zionist movement no favors.

Are you actually accusing me of Anti-Semitism for expressing the truth: that the majority of Jews support Zionism?

That's a first! You certainly have a broad definition of Anti-Semitism, don't you? And if the majority don't support it, which is ludicrous since the majority live in ISRAEL to begin with and the 2nd largest number live in the U.S. and support Zionism as well which I believe already proves my assumption, then prove me wrong first, and quit throwing around veiled accusations to discredit what I wrote.

And one more thing: don't blame me if Zionism gives Jews in general a bad name, it was after all a Jewish invention that many, too many Jews embrace and go out of their way to protect despite the obvious injustice it sows.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 14 2014 21:37 utc | 41

kalithea (40)

And one more thing: don't blame me if Zionism gives Jews in general a bad name, it was after all a Jewish invention that many, too many Jews embrace and go out of their way to protect despite the obvious injustice it sows.

How bloody anti-semitic of you to tell the plain truth!

If you were a good guy, you'd spatter weird lies about how zionism created the finest and only democracy in the region and how zionist officers empty complete magazines into 12 or 14 years old school girls on their way home to protect the fine zionist state, who just happens to call itself "state of the jews".

Sorry but you don't deserve better. As punishment you will not be allowed to write your name on a missile launched into a palestinian kindergarden.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 14 2014 21:50 utc | 42

Thanks b for following with such a tenacity all of zusa /zeu/zato criminal enterprises and most importantly for debunking them and their virtual realities be it in Syria (ya habibati)or now in the ukrainian mess with always an incredible good reasoning paired with a lot of common sense.You reminding me of an adored jack russell we had,actually the deceased Charles who once on a pist will never let it go till proven right for his tenacity.
Mr.Pragma ,I for one ,am always interested in reading your writings(I really loved your Lucifer explanation because it is so completely in symbiosis with my understanding)and am sure lots of us here share my interest so please what did you deduct from Mr.Rogosin words?

Posted by: Nobody | Mar 14 2014 21:59 utc | 43

Thanks fairleft (36) and Mr Pragma (39).
I'll try and stay safe.
I think that in Kyiv it's a lot clearer as in the capital there still remains, I think, some degree of the diversity of groups that were involved in Maidan.
Here in a smaller, but significant, city, there's a greater concentration of authority and little evidence of the early days of a kind of proto-civil-society emerging from the shadows to support folk out on the streets, getting them to Kyiv. <http://uauk.wordpress.com/category/the-early-days-of-euromaidan/>
Now the right are taking over the city space.

Posted by: UA_UK_ Lecturer | Mar 14 2014 22:06 utc | 44

Mr. Pragma, I rather liked your Netanyahu signature... ;~) And I'm awfully, awfully curious -- so please? But my deepest curiosity is the US/UK/Israel end-game in Ukraine, if there even is one. Granted, they don't care, and granted the Neo-Nazis, mercenaries et. al. are useful, disposeable idiots, but after "our" oligarchs help themselves to everything that isn't nailed down, how can the remains of this a-historical amalgam of peoples and places be kept peaceful enough to build, much less administer, pipelines, fracking, etc. So is there even an endgame, other than pissing off and provoking Putin? Or is this typical American (non-)think, i.e., five minutes ago is the historical view and quarterly-profits the long-range plan.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 14 2014 22:16 utc | 45

That Vladimir! setting up a financial booby trap.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-crisis/3-billion-ukraine-aid-would-go-russia-n52056

Posted by: heath | Mar 14 2014 22:23 utc | 46

will you antisemites reflect for one moment & work out who the real enemy is

u s imperialism does not need any of its puppets to decide for them whom they will devour

some of you must read the prtocoles to get your jollies, every time you put a wall between an event & what is really happening. do 1/10th of b's work & then you might merit some reflection, now you don't , not in the least, you are only fractionally different than the right sector

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 14 2014 22:25 utc | 47

@40 Mr. Pragma

If it weren't so true; I'd laugh.

It's an upside-down world where truth is the enemy and those who tell it are intimidated and branded with a "scarlet letter". A-S is used as a muzzle.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 14 2014 22:42 utc | 48

*@41*

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 14 2014 22:44 utc | 49

In case you wondered why Obama and some seemingly pro-peace Western governments have always reneged on their promises,here is another (besides GLADIO network) reason - makes a lot of sense to me:

NUCLEAR BLACKMAIL - Israel's nuclear deterrent method exposed

That would also explain somewhat bizarre decision of Germany to abandon its nuclear power program after Fukushima - wouldn't..?

Posted by: ProPeace | Mar 14 2014 22:46 utc | 50

@29 Massinissa

Zionism among American Jewry extends well into the left-liberal sector of the Democratic Party. I include "Zionists lite"
who make a show out of wanting to give Palestinians a few bantustans if they behave. When "liberal Jews" in quantity begin to
advocate a One State Solution devoid of rabbinical law, your argument might gain some play.

Posted by: truthbetold | Mar 14 2014 22:47 utc | 51

@46

u s imperialism does not need any of its puppets to decide for them whom they will devour

Ever hear of "The Office of Special Plans (OSP)?

what is really happening

When there's a connection to be made; I call it like I see it! So don't give me your Protocols - robocols, who cares! Get over it!

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 14 2014 22:55 utc | 52

Nobody (42)

Thanks for your friendly words and your attempt to console me but to be honest, what I wrote up there was more meant in a funny and sarcastic way.

Ad "Rogosin":

As I already hinted elsewhere, there is something indeed very remarkable taking place in Iran that can - and sure enough is - learned from. Rather than breaking down (under all those illegal sanctions) Iran build up a very significant industry and gained self reliance in many regards.

Another preamble to consider is that there are different levels of industry and certain related issues like maintenance (which turned out to be a major problem for Iran because not getting maintenance many complex products like airplanes rapidly became basically unuseable).

Now, Russia has some similar problems in a certain regard. As zusa basically - and willfully and well planned - destroyed major complete Russian industries, Russia experiences two major related problems, a) they need to buy many products, in particular complex products like machining centers or modern trains, and b) their production capacity in many areas is severely limited and unpleasantly depending on western exporters.

One example that comes to mind is military airplanes. While those are for the very large part independently build per se, their production rate is way lower than zusa and a large part of "infra technology" is alien which increases Russias dependency.

As is very obvious (and, of course, understood by Russia) Russia has become militarily potent enough so as to have zusa avoid any military conflict at pretty any cost. zusas behaviour re. ukraine provides ample proof.

Accordingly Russias priority must not be to produce as many weapon systems as quickly as any possible but it can - and is strongly "advised" by the sanction threats - to rather build up its industrial independence and its infra industrial capacities that is, things from modern industrial transport systems to machining centers.
Not taking care of that risks serious although quite limited damage.

Going that way, however, offers even two major and strategically important advantages.

For one Russia, while keeping its current production almost normally running, it can very considerably increase near future capacities, decrease production cost, and very much enhance production flexibility, and such create yet another follow up advantage, namely to be able to more flexibly, quickly end at reduced costs serve their weapons markets.

Secondly and even more importantly Russia must - and will - climb up again on the pyramid ladder. To explain quickly: Selling ressources like oil or iron mineral is the lowest level providing the lowest income. At the next level, for instance, basic steel bars or plates, considerably more money is earned. ... aso ... At the second highest level, the production of complex and technologically advanced goods most money (except for the highest level, pure know how without production, which, however is not attractive on a state economic level) is earned. While, to put it exemplatory, a ton of iron ore earns, say, 50 zus$, and a ton of basic steel bar or plates already earns, say, 300 zus$, a ton of, say, modern weapons system earns 1 mio zus$.

Russia already was there, 25 years ago before zusa completely ruined, plundered, and destroyed major industries. And it must climb back up anyway.
The threatened sanctions strongly push Russia toward enhancing their efforts to reclimb the pyramid, alone for independence.

The result with Iran is already recognizable as desastrous (for the sanctioning wezt). There are, for instance, managers from the car industry, to name a prominent example, queuing up and scratching at Irans doors. Iran, however, has definitely not forgotten who terrorized them for many years and, very importantly, they simply don't need the west hardly anymore.

Translate that to Russia looking at a very current example. There are rumours that the CEO of Russian railways is a weztern list of personae non gratae. At the same time there are bln zeuro projects going on, which of course european companies (who earned wagon loads of money with Russian railways) will be excluded from. Both Japan and China also have comparable technologies and products ...
Russia won't loose much but Germany and France will have thousands of jobs losses, blns of revenue lossesand an extremely hard time to re-enter the Russian market which at the same time will be considerably less in need of weztern products.

Just add the numbers up. Iran plus Russia is about 200 mio. people in basically rich countries (they have trillions of zeuro in their underground). That equates roughly to the size of the German, French, and english markets combined! And that market is lost, very pissed off, and very hard to re-enter.

So, Rogozin knew exactly what he talked about and he was painfully (for the wezt) right.
Those sanction will turn out to be 10%-20% harmful to Russia and 80%-90% harmful to the weztern countries. Additionally the "Iran effect" of effectively trengthening the sanctioned country will beat back at the sanctionizers.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 14 2014 22:55 utc | 53

Nora wrong question. There is no US/UK/Israel endgame because the current policy is not the result of any conscious policy. Each of these three countries will be taking different approaches.

The US, as it has for the past few weeks will blunder from one meeting to another trying to put the best face on a mess that it helped create. There is no way that we wanted this crisis. It will be impossible to undo the damage but hopefully Kerry will do something short of war. It is all trying to save face for Obama and Kerry now.

The UK will be mostly concerned with its financial interests and will do little more than pay lip service to US's efforts to get out of this mess.

Israel has no dog in this fight at all. In fact, their foreign ministry values good relations with Russia and I seriously doubt that they would let some of their more zealous Zionist allies spoil that relationship. It is too easy to see a Zionist conspiracy here since there are so many Jews deeply involved in Ukraine, but there are even more Jews working in Russia and have profitable and productive relationships with them.

It is hard to predict how this all plays out but the endgame for the US will be how it reacts to the continuing collapse of Ukraine, the US will not be guiding that process. I still think the country will split leaving behind a land locked Ukraine located mostly west of the Dniepr River. The EU will end up finding jobs for the 30 million Ukrainians left isolated.

Posted by: ToivoS | Mar 14 2014 22:58 utc | 54

#46;Never read the POTEOZ,never read Mein Kampf,and never read that manifesto either,but I still know it's that maladorus Zionist wind which blows no good to humanity.I do agree that the USA is another bad actor,and does or has done much of what Israel does,but today every idiot in our government is a Zionist sympathizer intent on the destruction of the world outside the separation walls.

Posted by: dahoit | Mar 14 2014 23:01 utc | 55

remembererringgiap (46)

will you antisemites ...

It might be my poor english but I don't get it. Could you please elaborate? (also on the meaning of your rant)

Thanks.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 14 2014 23:03 utc | 56

the real enemy is u s imperialism/ it is & alway has been. puppets are puppets, there is little difference to me between britain, israel, australia, quatar

zionism is a perversion of judaism, pure & simple. some here have noted its beginning - jabotinsky et al - who dishonor jewish history & memory, actively

the bund which was more representative of jewish life before the war is deliberately forgotten, its progressive character hidden

u s imperialism is fallin apart, the rest will follow

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 14 2014 23:16 utc | 57

# 42. The US at this point has very little manufacturing capacity and a dearth of skilled workers because of twenty-plus years of outsourcing. Small companies, making small things, yes, a few. And a couple of aging dinosaur plants, but really, not much. So it won't take much to cripple us.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 14 2014 23:17 utc | 58

strangely, u s imperialism's downfall were perceived indirectly by lin piao in his essay, 'long live the victory of people's war' - where he talked of the field & the city

but in fact it is the empire itself that hos git itself into a quagmire it cannot ever escape, an irreversible downfall

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 14 2014 23:26 utc | 59

remembererringgiap (56)

OK, thanks.

I agree with you insofar as one should - as well as one can considering zionisms ample employing of deception - differentiate between jews (people who have a certain religious belief) and zionists.

One point often raised is "jews shy manual labour". I think it might be worthwhile to think about that. For one, who, given he has the brains and possibility, wouldn't prefer to work as a doctor or other academic? It seems to me that judaism values knowledge and education very highly and accordingly it seems just natural to me that jews have a very high rate of non manual workers.

I also clearly see zionism hiding behind and abusing the "jew" label. But I also see that the onus to understand and differentiate can and should not always be on the non-jews.

As for "us-imperialism" I'm not that sure. I assume that one could discover zionists at work when looking closer at the root and beginning of zamerican imperialism.

But I admit that zamerica is the major plague and cause, no matter who or what's behind it in the end.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 14 2014 23:36 utc | 60

"But my deepest curiosity is the US/UK/Israel end-game in Ukraine, if there even is one."

No, there isn't one. What the US is doing is stretching Russia and China, testing them.

The next move is very likely to come in Syria and ask the question "Is Russia so pre-occupied in Crimea that we can get away with, for example, an Israeli missile attack on Damascus?"

Then there is Iran. Iran relies, to an extent on Russian sympathy, and vice versa. This might be a real good time for the US to tempt Tehran with a big offer, perhaps involving Iraq? Who knows? The chances are that it wouldn't take much to get Rouhani eating out of Washington's hands.
Then there is Central Asia where the US has permanent options to ramp up the pressure. How about Kazakhstan? Or Turkmenistan?
Then there is China: the US has mad dog Abe ready to go wild there. And President Park, the fascist lady in love with America, ready to whip up tensions when necessary.
Then there is Pakistan. And the fascist Modi-ready to take power in India and anxious to ingratiate himself with the US.
Then there's South America, with Venezuela at the top of the list.

Everywhere the US pushes its aggressions. It loses nothing if it doesn't win. It is always gambling with House Money.

Russia, however, is subject to repeated pinpricks and constant threats. How's Kaliningrad? Time for a riot there? In Latvia the President is laying wreaths on SS tombs, paying tribute to the men who besieged Leningrad. Will Russia respond? Then there is Afghanistan, which pumps rivers of heroin into Russia every year. What will Russia do there?

The rational response for Russia is to make alliances and strengthen them. In South America there are several countries which would benefit from alliance with a power ready to take on the United States. The same is true elsewhere, although every year as regime after regime (Libya, Iraq, Syria, Sudan, Somalia) is replaced or weakened until mere survival becomes all, the possibilities grow less. Just as five years ago the possibility of making a firm alliance with Iran-of mutual benefit to both parties- was lost and Ahmedinejad left out to dry while Israel and the US threatened war. Those threats would not have worked if Iran had had Russia's deterrent to fall back on.
And now can Russia depend on Iran's assistance? Can it even depend on China's?

Who knows. But this is clear: the US regularly gets away with murder because it can pick off its enemies one at a time. Maybe Putin never heard John Adams's reputed remark "Gentlemen we must hang together because, if we do not, we will hang separately."

Ghadaffi has been hanged. So has Saddam. Assad's neck is still in a noose, and Syria is in ruins with a generation's worth of repairwork to be done. Sudan is split in two. Venezuela is racked by Yankee financed riots, implemented by a bourgeois class/caste that really ought to be in exile or taxed to the extent that it has no time for treachery.

Posted by: bevin | Mar 14 2014 23:36 utc | 61

Richard Engel in Crimea
Now Richard Engel expressed great admiration for his captors among the Syrian rebels when they kidnapped him. Will he extend the same courtesy to those who briefly detained him in the Crimea?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/13/richard-engel-detained-crimea-ukraine-nbc-news_n_4958777.html

Posted by: brian | Mar 14 2014 23:44 utc | 62

What is all this war fever being whipped up by the MSM - except that they think war is entertainment and a harmless spectator sport. Harmless to them. The pornography of violence - just talking about it gets their juices flowing.

But the EU will never go to war, or even threaten war, with Russia without far more provocation. And why should Putin give them the excuse? Russian naval bases are just as safe within an "independent" Crimea defended by Russian troops, as they would be within a Crimean governate of Russia. Putin will make no threatening moves, and enter into endless decades-long negotiations about Ukrainian "sovereignty", comparable to those about Israel/Palestine.

The Germans have fought Russia before and I doubt they are eager for a rematch, especially on account of Ukraine.

Remember this: “How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks here because of a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing.”

If Godwin's Law is true, Obama and Kerry have already lost!

Posted by: rackstraw | Mar 15 2014 0:03 utc | 63

@61

Don't count on it. He's there to tow his Corporate masters line. But maybe he'll go rogue...uh, more likely not.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 15 2014 0:08 utc | 64

Maybe because it's Friday, but it's always nice to have a laugh once in a while. Remember a couple of days ago Russia made an offer to the new regime in Kiev that if they wanted they could do a flyover and see for themselves that the Russians were not massing hundreds of thousand troops on the Ukrainian borders? Nothing came of it, and do you know why?

As per lawful treaty, both nations have the right to do military flyovers of each other's territory, but the country requesting the flyover must pay a fee to the other country before they can actually take off. Apparently the Kiev regime doesn't have enough money to pay, and for some strange reason Russia doesn't seem inclined to give the poor bastards any more loans. Making matters worse, sources inform me that Mr. Kerry's credit card is at it's limit this month and both Merkel and Obama aren't answering their phones, although they obviously strongly support the new government.

Any bets on how many months (or weeks) the neo-nazi's have before they are starved out?

http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/03/15/russia-says-ukraine-must-pay-for-military-inspection-flight.html

Posted by: TicoTiger | Mar 15 2014 0:27 utc | 65

Nora

Ad "endgame":

I Think it's way more complex that we can possibly dissect and analyze here to a reasonable degree.

I do not agree that izrael has no dog in this; at the very minimum izrael once more has the "make jews understand that only izrael is secure for them" dog in it. That dog, however, is in it, no matter the sides, as long as nazis are active.

As for uk it's simple. They live in zusas ass and whereever that ass moves the brits move. camerons statement to kerry was loud and clear enough for a "yes sir, massa sahib, whatever you wish, sir, thank you, sir".

zusas role is simple, too, according to my lengthy "essay" explaining how zusa ticks and why (that probably nobody read because, hurray, there was a new thread while I wrote it ... grrr).
To brutally compress it:
It's an endgame, yes, or, more correctly, it will turn out to be one, albeit not to zusas benefit. But in a weird sense and to a certain degree, it probably was even known to be a kind endgame or desperate move by zusa.
Russia is the military part, China is the economic part of "the threat", embodied to a large degree by BRICS, seen from zusas perspective. While they do try, as little as they can, to weaken China, zusa always having relied on the military as the most important (and meanwhile sole) base for pretty everything (by far not only foreign policy) Russia is the primary target.
Basically since MacKinder there is the - not completely wrong but neither fully correct - anglo-saxon understanding that ukraine (in the core of MacKinders Eurasia "heartland") is the key to world power and anyway a major threat to zusas world domination need (yes, "need", not merely desire). This, of course, made it particularly attractive as a tool against Russia.
Sure, there are some other interests, too, like black sea oil, or the famous missile base interests, but that's basically peanuts; the core and priority for zusa was simply to create a fulcrum for a lever that could tear Russia apart.
Being militarily weak they couldn't risk to be officially involved and being financially broken they couldn't afford neither. So zusa chose their "last aace" approach, basically following the Gladio protocol using nazis; in part because those were somewhat trained, easily to be manipulated, cheap to get; partly because zionists *do* play a not even so discrete and quite powerful role in ukraine since many, many years.

The fact that zusa plan failed and failed big-time for the largest part wasn't that much due to stupidity but rather due to urgency. A lot of things evolved very differently and way faster than zusa had thought and calculated. So, shamefully simple as this may sound, zusa acted out of a - justified - feeling of urgency and out of desperation. Obviously they had to pull the whole thing off in a hurry and hence sloppy.

And they made "internal" errors, too, and big ones. An evident one being misinterpreting and badly guessing the zeu factor. For one, anything even remotely nazi is a major no-go in Germany. The very imagination of being linked to nazis who say things like "we will kill all jew pigs" is an absolute nightmare for merkel and her accomplices.
Another problem is that everyone knows that this was a zusa operation, at least since the nuland leak. It will be extremely difficult to explain to the Europeans why they are to pay 95% of the bill for something that wasn't in their interest in the first place.
In short, major tension between zusa und europe are in the making.

And finally zusa, as is in their nature, badly underestimated Russia and particularly Putin. Sure, they had to assume that Russia wouldn't be happy but they didn't expect Russia, after all under a political and media attack from all zato, turning all their gun turrets toward zusa and being perfectly ready to open fire at all cannons, militarily, economically, and even the worst gun of all, the one targeting the zus$.

Additionally they miscalculated in thinking that Russia would make some trouble in and around ukraine but would in the end not be able to do much about it.

Now, Russia de facto is in the position to do whatever they fucking please in and with ukraine and zusa/zeu is all but out of control. Furthermore Russia will not suffer much but actually *use* any sanctions against it for the better of Russia. Additionally, just to make sure, the snake will not raise its head again, Russia, you bet, is working on a major operation to kill the zus$ monopoly. And again, the sanctions, even the mere threat of sanction will in the end work *for* Russia and not against her because Russia just takes it as an urgent invitation to buy and sell in Ruble or Yuan and certainly not in zus$ and probably neither in zeuro.

Last but not least, one price zusa will pay is that, seeing zusas bloody obvious weakness and lack of real power, many countries will feel emboldened in their dealings with - or even against - zusa.

This whole thing will turn out not as an end game but as an end to zusa and, to a degree to zeu, games.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 15 2014 0:31 utc | 66

TicoTiger | Mar 14, 2014 8:27:17 PM | 64 Funny comment. Unfortunately, when it comes to misguided foreign policy goals price is never a problem. How many failed states have been artificially kept going with the influx of US dollars? South Vietnam for two decades, Israel for six, Iraq and Afghanistan for one.

We will teach the neo-Nazis good manners -- drop the antisemitism and the dollars will flow.

Posted by: ToivoS | Mar 15 2014 0:37 utc | 67

@40

Not so much accusing you of anti-Semitism as telling you to be careful with your rhetoric. Some may get the wrong impression.

This is not a religious conflict, against Judaism, but a political one, against Zionism. Just be careful when talking about Judaism. There ARE anti-Zionist jews you know.

Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 15 2014 0:53 utc | 68

Two people have reportedly been killed after armed men from the radical Right Sector movement attacked local self-defence activists in the eastern city of Kharkov. Another two people have been wounded by gunfire.

The armed group that reportedly barricaded itself inside the local headquarters of Right Sector was shooting and throwing flash grenades and Molotov cocktails at Kharkov anti-Maidan activists who gathered outside.

Two people have been killed in the shooting, the city’s mayor said, while authorities reported at least two more people were wounded.

Police deployed at the scene has cordoned off the area and were preparing to storm the building, where some 40 people are believed to be hiding, Itar-Tass reports.

The incident reportedly began after a Kharkov self-defence group patrolling the city square noticed a suspicious Volkswagen van and tried to stop it. It was the same van involved in a shooting back on March 8, when one of the anti-Maidan activists was wounded.

When the driver refused to stop, LifeNews reports, activists chased the van to the building on Rymarska Street, where the office of Right Sector is located.

The shooting started after the activists tried to enter the building. Gunmen were also throwing flash grenades and Molotov cocktails from the second floor of the building, LifeNews reports.

Activists had to retreat waiting for police and ambulances to arrive. Meanwhile numerous videos of the incident captured by the activists and have been uploaded on YouTube.

The mayor of Kharkov Gennady Kernes has also arrived at the scene for “negotiations,” but when he approached the building the shooting resumed, local activist Sergey Yudaev who was live streaming the incident told RT.

Yudaev said that local authorities were apparently covering up the actions of Right Sector and trying to hide the fact that the group has a hideout with a cache of weapons in that building. Yudaev also confirmed the incident on March 8, when a group in that exact van attacked several peaceful activists who were returning from an anti-Maidan rally.

Yudaev also said that it took activists almost 40 minutes to make the police respond to the call, since the new police chief appointed by the Kiev “junta” is covering up all crimes carried out by the Right Sector in Kharkov.

The local “junta controlled” media, Yudaev warned, have already twisted the story and tried to present it as an attack by Oplot movement on an office of some "political organization" that has nothing to do with Right Sector. But the group inside the building is anything but peaceful, Yudaev said, as videos clearly show Molotov cocktails being thrown at people standing outside.

http://rt.com/news/ukraine-kharkov-radicals-attack-982/

Posted by: brian | Mar 15 2014 0:56 utc | 69

@60 Forgive me if I never shed tears for Saddam, though. I don't have much sympathy for former US puppets who get turned on by their own houndmaster. He should have known better than to make a deal with the Great Satan that the nation he went to war with in the 1980s, Iran, tried to warn the world of.

Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 15 2014 1:00 utc | 70

Mr. P, First off, I did read that piece, and thank you for it. Secondly, I'd never heard of Mackinder so had to go check him out and yes, his ideas look to have been quite influential. And thirdly, what you're saying makes a lot of sense -- I can see the damned geo-strategic stuff but just keep getting so hung up on all the suffering people, and Ukraine, together, apart or whatever, is just in for so much before things settle down, if they ever do. But I guess that's just what we do best. (choke)

Posted by: Nora | Mar 15 2014 1:05 utc | 71

@bevin -

Off topic, but I just reading Mike Whitney's latest Counterpunch article and he quoted one of your MOA comments. I thought, hey I "know" that guy! :) You might already be aware of it, but I thought I'd shout it out here anyhow. Cheers!
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/03/14/obama-the-willing-executioner/

Posted by: Jessica S | Mar 15 2014 1:12 utc | 72

unsurprising b & bevin make sense

the keys of the kingdom are not in old jerusalem but in some corridor of washington where john yoo, scalia & negroponte salivate

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 15 2014 1:24 utc | 73

This is for Toivo and remembererringgiap

Which came first: the puppet or the puppeteer? Israel thirsts for water, oil, regional hegemony and land expansion and Russia is one of two major players getting in the way (which I’ll get to later in the post).

From a 2006 article: Where does Israel get its oil? I’ll answer this question first: It's not where it gets its oil now, it's where it wants and needs to get its oil that matters most.

Meanwhile, Israel continues to seek nearby suppliers. In the lead-up to the war in Iraq, there was some talk of restarting an abandoned pipeline that runs from Mosul, Iraq, to Haifa. In order for this to happen, Israel would need to somehow wrangle the support of the Syrians, since they control part of the route.

Israel has long sought a local source of oil, especially since the oil crisis of 1973. Having a nearby supplier would increase Israel's energy security and reduce the cost of its imports. Iran filled that need for a while: Starting in 1968, the Israelis used a pipe called the "TIPline" to import Iranian oil from the Red Sea. But the shah was overthrown in 1979, and Iran shut off the tap.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2006/07/where_does_israel_get_oil.html

Prior to the bombing of Lebanon, Israel and Turkey had announced the underwater pipeline routes, which bypassed Syria and Lebanon. These underwater pipeline routes do not overtly encroach on the territorial sovereignty of Lebanon and Syria.

On the other hand, the development of alternative land based corridors (for oil and water) through Lebanon and Syria would require Israeli-Turkish territorial control over the Eastern Mediterranean coastline through Lebanon and Syria.

The implementation of a land-based corridor, as opposed to the underwater pipeline project, would require the militarisation of the East Mediterranean coastline, extending from the port of Ceyhan across Syria and Lebanon to the Lebanese-Israeli border.
Is this not one of the hidden objectives of the war on Lebanon?

Also involved in this project is a pipeline to bring water to Israel, pumping water from upstream resources of the Tigris and Euphrates river system in Anatolia. This has been a long-run strategic objective of Israel to the detriment of Syria and Iraq. Israel’s agenda with regard to water is supported by the military cooperation agreement between Tel Aviv and Ankara.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-war-on-lebanon-and-the-battle-for-oil/2824

So there you have just ONE Zionist motive for helping to fabricate war with Iraq at the OSP (Office of Special Plans Defense Dept.), plotting ways to destabilize Syria and topple Assad and pushing for war with Iran. And I by-passed their Lebanon adventures which are a fascinating read in that article and oil exploration in the Golan Heights. But Zionists don’t only have the oil & water goals in mind. Their aim goes far beyond that and that’s why Congress is Zionist-occupied territory.

@ Toivo 53 wrote:

REALLY?

From the same article above:

The objective of Israel is not only to acquire Caspian sea oil for its own consumption needs but also to play a key role in re-exporting Caspian sea oil back to the Asian markets through the Red Sea port of Eilat. The strategic implications of this re-routing of Caspian sea oil are farreaching.

Diverting Central Asian oil and gas to the Eastern Mediterranean (under Israeli military protection), for re-export back to Asia, serves to undermine the inter-Asian energy market, which is based on the development of direct pipeline corridors linking Central Asia and Russia to South Asia, China and the Far East.

Ultimately, this design is intended to weaken Russia’s role in Central Asia and cut off China from Central Asian oil resources. It is also intended to isolate Iran.
Meanwhile, Israel has emerged as a new powerful player in the global energy market.

Since Michel Chossudovsky wrote this prophetic article Russia already has an established military port in Tartus, Syria.

Meanwhile, Moscow has responded to the US-Israeli-Turkish design to militarize the East Mediterranean coastline with plans to establish a Russian naval base in the Syrian port of Tartus:

“Defense Ministry sources point out that a naval base in Tartus will enable Russia to solidify its positions in the Middle East and ensure security of Syria. Moscow intends to deploy an air defense system around the base – to provide air cover for the base itself and a substantial part of Syrian territory. (S-300PMU-2 Favorit systems will not be turned over to the Syrians. They will be manned and serviced by Russian personnel.)
(Kommerzant, 2 June 2006)
Tartus is strategically located within 30 km. of the Lebanese border.

Moreover, Moscow and Damascus have reached an agreement on the modernization of Syria’s air defenses as well as a program in support to its ground forces, the modernization of its MIG-29 fighters as well as its submarines. (Kommerzant, 2 June 2006). In the context of an escalating conflict, these developments have farreaching implications.

And that’s not all the Russians are up to with Syria to get under Zionist skin:

http://rt.com/business/syria-oil-gas-russia-795/

And Russia’s working on signing another similar deal with Lebanon.

So Zionists not only have a dog in this race, they're intention is to OWN THE RACE and U.S. foreign policy which is undoubtedly already a fait accompli.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 15 2014 1:38 utc | 74

Actually I could have started with another question in regards to Zionist geo-political intentions that also makes sense: At which point do the puppet and puppeteer switch places?

I guess one of the answers might be when America starts looking like Israel, as in the Israelification of American airports, NSA and Congress. But why stop there?

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 15 2014 1:57 utc | 75

Kalithea # 73: Shamir said years ago that Israel was the brains and the US simply the brawn. It's a hypothesis that always needs to be considered, imo. But despite having been brainwashed into Zionism since Day One, younger Jews here are apparently not totally buying into it, or at least not automatically. And it's been said that AIPAC and all the other organizations don't accurately reflect the majority of American Jews. I can't say, but I do know that it's risky criticizing Israel in any way among most American Christians, bc they've sure been brainwashed too and the efforts just never cease. So, yeah, not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews, and it's Zionism and the racist hatred and despicable behavior it embodies that is the problem as I see it, not Jewishness, whatever that is.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 15 2014 2:00 utc | 76

Mr.Pragma,thanks for the response and sorry that I didn't pick up the derision,I guess it's fatigue!For more than 10 years now I have been waiting for Russia to follow Iran in its authartic policy,Then came the hope with the BRICS coin and then nothing!Probably this ukrainian mess will push Russia in its path to real independence and more importantly to break one and for all the neck of zusa meaning its $ hegemony and the whole empire of scam it created in the financial world.Hopefully too Russia will never again "reset"anything with zusa and zeu and once and for all liberate itself from its ambiguous foreign policy with the zionist entity and clean the mess created by the internal zioentity.Adding to your response to Nora may I add that zusa can't under any condition attack Iran.It was and still is afraid of Syria and its thousand missiles and that after 3 years of covert war that has targeted primarily its mil. defense.So all the barking in the face of Russia is just what it is-barking.The zusa strength is a myth,a virtual reality as is the "invincible "army e.g. the zio one,a fact that Hezbollah has demonstrated time and again .And they can shove their 300 nuclear head where I think because launching them will not avoid their disappearance let alone the fact that they will contaminate the whole Palestine .

Posted by: Nobody | Mar 15 2014 2:03 utc | 77

#74: We're there. Or is that what you mean. For years now, Israel has been training even our small-town police forces in counter-terrorism tactics, and you can see the increase in police overreaction and brutality (they don't "just" do it to people of color anymore, which I suppose is progress??). And our teeny-tiny rural fire department now has one of those armored vehicles, though I can't imagine it doing anything other than wasting gas and hitting the occasional horse-driven buggy. It was hysterical a few months ago seeing it drive up to an electric pole that had fallen over and caught fire -- but I guess I should be grateful none of the surrounding trees got tased...

Posted by: Nora | Mar 15 2014 2:05 utc | 78

Nobody # 76. The problem is, we're stupid, out of control, can still do a lot of damage and don't particularly care if we do. It's like a drunken uncle with a loaded gun -- you really can't ignore him until he's passed out in a corner and dropped his gun. And we're still a long way from that.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 15 2014 2:10 utc | 79

the "West" needs finally see eye to eye with the fact that most of Middle and Eastern Europe is volatile. None of the states east of today's Germany are natural habitats. Hungary is still a spin-off of the Hapsburg empire, Yugoslavia has only recently fallen apart and is still restless, Slovakia and the Czech Republic not long ago were one state, the Crimea has only in 1954 been rather accidentally been "added" to then Soviet Ukraine, Poland is not "sitting" where it used to be geographically and the CIS states are either dictatorships or split in the middle about leaning west- or eastwards. Wars have broken out when less states in these regions were in turmoil.

Posted by: Oona Houlihan | Mar 15 2014 2:15 utc | 80

@fairleft (22) I'm sorry, I can't abide by your comment there.

No one, not the "Soviet Union" nor "its hangers on" (whatever that means) ever considered the famine not to have happened. Nor does Tottle's book claim it never happened. It mostly describes the dual US-Nazi media campaign (which drags on to this day) that sought to inflate and assign blame to the very real tragedy of the famine. And neither, I gather, does Petri believe it never happened because, as he said, it is the "myth" of the event - that it was a purposeful act with the goal of a Ukrainians genocide - is a hoax, as you yourself noted.

I appreciate narrative symmetry as much as the next person, but not when it takes assigning failures to those that did not engage in them.

It's time to shut down the whole "Soviets were just as bad as the Nazis" conventional wisdom, and that starts with the left. Because it is part of the history of the left, and though we have to accept the very real failures, we cannot let that be sullied by complete lies. Because this is the myth that destroys Russia's very important place in history and great sacrifices. This is the myth that poisons what should be the good name of a great idea based on peace, fellowship and class consciousness - socialism. This is the myth that allows the sacrifices of three women in "Pussy Riot" to obscure the sacrifices of 20 million Soviet soldiers and civilians. Take down this myth, and I am certain that the myth of "American Exceptionalism" will follow.

I do hope your conception of yourself as both "fair" and "left" doesn't require such weak submissions to falsehoods. I know, unfortunately, that some people's do. And the history of humanity never be whole so long as it does.

...

@71 Congrats bevin! You're writing is really great. I have always admired it (and surely tried, poorly, to emulate it!). You certainly deserve a large audience. Perhaps this why you're in someone's crosshairs... ;)

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 15 2014 2:26 utc | 81

It's Friday night - time for George Galloway's "Comment" on PressTV: http://www.presstv.ir/section/3510524.html

British Prime Minister David Cameron has given Israel a strong message of support, saying he will fight efforts to boycott Israeli goods if talks with Palestinian Authority fail.
In an address to the Israeli parliament on Wednesday, the first day of a visit to East al-Quds (Jerusalem), the British premier pledged "rock solid" support for Israel.

He promised to oppose any calls for boycott, whether economic, trade or academic, designed to isolate Israel.

Cameron held talks with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu after his arrival earlier Wednesday on the two-day visit to Israel and the Occupied Palestinian territories.

Israel has faced the widening boycott campaign by some European businesses over its illegal settlement activities on the occupied Palestinian land.

The boycotts are in protest to Israeli settlement plans in the West Bank. The plans are seen as one of the stumbling blocks to the so-called peace talks between the Israelis and the Palestinian Authority, which were brokered by the United States.

The Palestinian Authority-Israeli negotiations, which resumed in July 2013, have failed to make much progress.

Palestinians demand that East al-Quds (Jerusalem) be their capital and that Israel recognize borders based on the 1967 lines, which existed before the Six-Day War, when Israel captured the West Bank and East al-Quds.

Posted by: guest77 | Mar 15 2014 2:27 utc | 82

OT regarding comments on zionist as opposed to being jewish, phil mondoweiss has a very good site that probably most of you are familiar with.. for those who aren't, you might enjoy the focus of his website.. http://mondoweiss.net/

Posted by: james | Mar 15 2014 2:32 utc | 83

(71)

Congratulations to bevin. And shame on Mike Whitney who evidently gathers his "insights" by reading whatever sounds nice and is zusa-centric (read: intelligible to his zamerican "mind").

While bevin often offers interesting thoughts on diverse matters, he just once more didn't just miss the target but actually shot at another planet it seems. Because on this planet here things are very different.

No, there isn't one. What the US is doing is stretching Russia and China, testing them

So, bevin after all agrees that zusas stupidity is indeed unlimited?

Because the one who must be worried about "stretching" is zusa, not Russia or China. In fact it is them who might stretch and it's zusa who will be the victim. Russias and Chinas geographical situation makes it easy to cover large parts of each other and to combine their forces. zusa on the other hand would be in the unpleasant - and very expensive and dangerous - position of having to transport troups across two oceans for thousands of miles. Introducing Chinas DF-21 into the equation would deny zusa its largest and most important bases at its most important allies (read: forced colonies) in the region and, to make things worse, force zusa to make an ugly multihop over Guam. I'll generously leave aside the risk of a large part of zusas fleet not suriving the cross-Pacific journey.

The next move is very likely to come in Syria and ask the question "Is Russia so pre-occupied in Crimea that we can get away with, for example, an Israeli missile attack on Damascus?"

Maybe. But not to stretch or stress Russia. Simply because ukraine with an "active" army of 4.000 after a general mobilisation would hardly be anything but a very minor nuisance to Russia, who could simply re-add the few ships it took off the Syria theater to its still present force there.
Any why shoud zusa do that? They were told to leave there and to stop making trouble and they went to make trouble in ukraine after that in the first place. Should we add masochism to the list of hardly flattering attributes of zusa?

Similarly, if israel (or zusa, for that matter) did dare to attack Syria again, Russia could very easily do what they did before, namely to stop the shit. And, being at that, it might consider it a good idea to favourably respond to Assads request for some S-300 and some Iskanders which would turn israels adventure very quickly into a russian roulette (pun intended).

This might be a real good time for the US to tempt Tehran with a big offer, perhaps involving Iraq? Who knows? The chances are that it wouldn't take much to get Rouhani eating out of Washington's hands.

That paragraph shows, Pardon me, just how grossly arrogant, ignorant, and stupid the zamerican perspective is.

For a starter, the shot in Iran are still called by Chameini and not by rouhani, who is just a tool and one that already has a very hard time standing against a large part of both Iranian society and government and military.
Secondly, zusa is for Iran one thing above all and that's "the Satan". zusas chance of being believed and trusted by Iran are close to zero.
And btw., after the ukrainian quagmire - and MAJOR loss of face - chances are that Iran cares even less about zusas offers, lures, and threats.

As for eating out of zusas hand, I don't like or trust rouhani but I do not consider him a cheap whore. And even if he were, that would be an extremely short meal with rouhani dead before he had swallowed.

I have to ask for your understandings but, Pardon me, it gets boring and point the nonsense out in that bevin text. So I will leave it with one more striking example:

Everywhere the US pushes its aggressions. It loses nothing if it doesn't win. It is always gambling with House Money.

It seems I have to add "autistic and blind" to the list.

Well, let me detail some parts of bevins "nothing":

- zusa lost its face and suffered a considerable reputation loss when it had to abort its Syria "operation".
- zusa was thrown out of Afghanistan. Not exactly helpful for the superpower image.
And sure enough, one could very comfortably count those in A. who like zusa while one couldn't possibly find enough busses to put everyone in A. in who wants to kill zamericans.
- zusa has lost trillions for/its two wars which it did not even win.
- zusa has hundreds of thousands of veterans who are maimed or psychically seriously deranged, some of them going berserk on zusas streets and very many of them not even getting proper medical treatment.
- zusa hast lost face and massive amounts of reputation again in ukraine and has gained but a guarantee to be hated and despised in that country (or soon countries) for decades.

And last but by no means least, zusa has provoked a situation in which it will quite soon loose what bevin calls "house money".

But thanks to the valuable hints I have learned now that even "intellectual" or "non mainstream" zusa media can't be trusted and isn't much different from the zusa-centric stupid, ignorant, blatantly bullshit spattering msm.

Ceterum censeo israel americanamque vehementer delenda esse!

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 15 2014 2:39 utc | 84

@80

It's only fair that Justice wears a blindfold but when these boot-licking doormats for Zionism that call themselves leaders put a prohibition on boycotting; she's now forced to wear a Zionist-imposed muzzle as well.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 15 2014 2:45 utc | 85

Nora (75)

Shamir said years ago that Israel was the brains and the US simply the brawn. It's a hypothesis that always needs to be considered, imo.

Don't get distracted - as planned! - by the old jews=zionists or not question.

Shamir said it in the typical arrogance of somewhat thinking he is in full control and doesn't need to be careful anymore.

Just check it yourself!

What is the "brains" of zusa? And who sits there, who controls it? It's the "dual citizenship" zionists. In congress, in government, in universitites (who, after all, form the next generation of leaders ...), in media.

Shamir was *obviously* honest (which should set off an alarm, him being a arch zionist)

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 15 2014 2:47 utc | 86

kalithea | Mar 14, 2014 9:38:01 PM | 73 Well kalithea you make a pretty good case that Israel has interests that conflict with Russia in the eastern Mediterranean. Also your point makes sense that Israel would love to gain a foothold in central Asia and access to all of that oil. You could have also added that Israel was involved in the Caucasus states, specifically Georgia and Azerbaijan. They were thinking of using the later as a refueling base in the advent of bombing Iran. All this shows is that Russian and Israeli interests are not exactly congruent.

My point is that Israel does not have important enough interests in Ukraine that would be worth antagonizing Russia. As a side note, I do not accept Zionists control US foreign policy. Yes they do have inordinate influence in Washington over our ME policies and they worked hard to get the US into a ruinous war in Iraq. As powerful as AIPAC may be, it does not rule the US.

Posted by: ToivoS | Mar 15 2014 2:47 utc | 87

a few links some might enjoy reading.

http://mwcnews.net/focus/editorial/37944-nuland-ukraine.html

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/03/14/neocons-have-weathered-the-storm/

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/03/iran-ukraine-active-neutrality-syria.html#

Posted by: james | Mar 15 2014 2:48 utc | 88

Massinissa@69
I'm not shedding tears for any of them. But I am shedding tears for the millions killed, wounded, displaced or merely ruined for life, because these political bosses, including Assad, insisted on running with the hare and hunting with the hounds, It is no coincidence that Ghaddafi's demise came just after he had become Tony Blair's best mate, financed Sarkozy's election campaign, paid a $2 billion bribe (out of Libya's revenues) for the Lockerbie bombing that Libya had nothing to do with and finally ended his flirtation with western radicals. He had efficiently stripped himself of support.

Jessica@71 I read Counterpunch everyday. Except today! Thanks for the tip: they got the quote wrong though- crediting me with a quote from someone else here, with whom I was arguing- but it is good to see that b's blog is getting the attention it merits. Now, if we can only keep the trolls away...

kalithea:
" Israel thirsts for water, oil, regional hegemony and land expansion..."

The government of Israel is fascist. It thirsts for the interests of the class it serves.
As to "regional hegemony" what the Israeli regime wants is to be the local franchisee for MacEmpire. Far from wanting hegemony, with all its duties and burdens, it just wants security from the hegemon.
As to land expansion, yes, Israel wants as much land as it can get.

If you look at the history of zionism it becomes clear that it is aimed at the Jews themselves. It is project of the ruling class among Jews, eager to please their protectors, the capitalists, the imperialists and, in the 1930s the anti-semitic fascists.
I detest the zionist state and long to see its demise. Few things more buttress zionism, however, than the idle demagogic politics of racists who, in opposing Israel, attempt to recruit those who hate Jews, per se.
This helps zionism in two major ways: first it reinforces the claim that Jews can only be safe in a "state of their own" (which no doubt is a big theme in Ukraine these days) and secondly it puts the best elements of the Jewish community, who have always been at the forefront of struggles for justice and have stood shoulder to shoulder with the poor and the exploited, on the defensive.This weakens the critics of Capitalism immensely. It is no coincidence that Zionism and neo-liberalism have thrived in unison.
But much worse is the way that it introduces the dangerous poison of racism into our thinking. Critics of this imperialism need to be as clearheaded and rigorous as possible, and racism is a distorting lens that while it magnifies one thing, prevents us from seeing many other and more important things.

Zionists do have a dog in the fight, though: they want to encourage emigration to Israel and they want to sustain the interests of Zionist oligarchs. They also want to serve their patron-the US. And they want to hobble Russian power. But what they do not want is to rule the world through enslaving the giant US (the idea that Israelis supply the brains and America the brawn is the sort of fantasy that only demented zionists or anti-semites, who are zionists in reverse could come up with). The idea is laughable and implies not only the stupidity of the "gentile" ruling class but its benevolence too.

Posted by: bevin | Mar 15 2014 3:03 utc | 89

@82
Mr Pragma, I really don't think you understand half of what you read here, Mr Pragma. No doubt that is largely my fault, for not writing more clearly. On the other hand you share in the blame: you do not read what others write. No doubt it bores you. If so, fair enough and you should ignore it.

Your constant re-iteration of the idea that Russia is extraordinarily powerful, militarily, morally, economically and the United states and the EU proportionately important, does not, however much you repeat it and in however many macho phrases you wrap it, make it reasonable.

By any measure, as I have pointed out to you before, Russia is weak, after having been weakened and robbed for years. The last thing it needs is to get involved in an arms race with a state whose economy thrives on arms production.

Of course I might be wrong. I know very little about Russia today. If that is the case please inform us, not by assertions strengthened by the assertion that anyone who disagrees with them is mentally disabled or malicious, but by logical argument employing verifiable facts.

In the meantime take your juvenile abuse elsewhere.

Posted by: bevin | Mar 15 2014 3:20 utc | 90

@88
"proportionately important..."
should read "proportionately impotent..."

Posted by: bevin | Mar 15 2014 3:22 utc | 91

@60

Everywhere the US pushes its aggressions. It loses nothing if it doesn't win. It is always gambling with House Money.
No, there isn't one. What the US is doing is stretching Russia and China, testing them.

Well, lookee here, if this was the FIRST TIME that I saw some of my commentary end up being in bevin's posts after he's quietly conceded that he's lost an argument I'd be surprised. But as I'm used to it now, it's cool. Props.

So, four freaking days ago I had to defend myself ONCE AGAIN in an argument with bevin when he started attacking me for saying that the US aggression must be seen as a premeditated plan even though idiots may be at the helm.

Here's the OLD bevin:

One of the divides on this board is between those who regard the US as not only evil but devilishly clever and those who see the US as muscle bound, unwieldy and dumb in the conduct of foreign affairs.
Or does anyone seriously regard these adventures as proof of US cunning and relentlessness?

To which I replied:

That's why as much as I believe the American leaders are idiotic war criminals individually, I understand that the "system/concept" of America is much worse as it - like capitalism - operates ruthlessly, efficiently and relentlessly and seemingly with no need for constant direction/piloting any longer.
re·lent·less (rĭ-lĕnt′lĭs) adj. 1. Unyielding in severity or strictness; unrelenting 2. Steady and persistent; unremitting:

Let's see, invading and destabilizing nations on a schedule that puts it about at one nation every year or so since at least 1980 would be relentless in my book. Persistently f*cking things up. Steadily creating more and more forward bases around the planet. Getting more nations into debtor's prisons. Unremittingly destabilizing sovereign nations by training domestic paramilitary forces to be called upon when needed. I think that about answers the second half of your statement.

The US is relentless in its destruction and it is relentless because it NEVER SEEMS TO PAY A PRICE.

It hasn't happened yet and I personally see NO REASON whatsoever to change that prediction near long term.

As much as many on the left especially have hoped and hoped and hoped that this latest foreign military incursion - insert incursion here - was going to be THE straw that broke the domestic camel's back it ain't happened yet and I would propose that it ain't gonna EVER happen unless the US is militarily attacked on its own shores.

NOW, the new bevin, has come around - after all the sturm und drang - to my way of thinking and states that it's NOT really just incompetent lurching around but "the US can be seeing as always pushing it's aggression because it has nothing to lose" which sure sounds an awful like someone who has a PLAN, right?

You even borrowed my not "paying a price" line!! That was a good one, huh?

Then he goes on to list all of the places that the US could next spread havoc. Wow, that sure sounds premeditated AND relentless as I previously pointed out!!!

So, what you're saying, bevin, is that the US is both a cabal of idiotic murderers AND AT THE SAME TIME a cunning and relentless system of death and destruction, right, as I've continued to say to you?

I just want to clarify in case you get quoted again in the press so I can get some royalties, mkay?

Being an "anti-intellectual ranter" who happens to supply demure "intellectual" online posters with their talking points doesn't pay as well as you might think.

No really, I'm glad you've learned something.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Mar 15 2014 3:31 utc | 92

Adding:

BOOM goes the dynamite. (drops the microphone and slowly walks off-stage.)

Posted by: JSorrentine | Mar 15 2014 3:36 utc | 93

bevin: great comment at #60, and congrats (again) for having a comment picked up by Mike Whitney at Counterpunch.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 15 2014 3:50 utc | 94

Mr P.,

Are you of the view that almost the entire political class of Germany is anti-Putin? It looks like replacing Merkel would do no good. Perhaps German business groups feel more money can be made from plundering the Ukraine and going after Russia than in working with her.

If ZATO decides to try to recreate a Syrian scenario in the Ukraine, what could Russia do? Your discussion of Crimean forces agitating in Southern and Eastern Ukraine seems a bit limited. Surely ZATO can afford thousands of "freedom fighters" in the Syrian style to try to depopulate the key Russian areas. After all, US strategy is not to win wars, but to wreck countries.

Posted by: Ozawa | Mar 15 2014 3:58 utc | 95

Kosovo
Washington was quick off the mark with Kosovo, backing the region’s independence two years before the UN declared it was legal in 2008. NATO forces intervened 1999, carrying out a massive bomb campaign on targets in Serbia and in Kosovo. Human Rights Watch reported that over 500 civilians were killed in NATO’s incursion into the former Yugoslavia.
The Falklands
The UK government held a referendum in overseas territory the Falklands in 2013 to ascertain whether the islanders wished to remain a British colony. In spite of Argentinian protests, the West did not move to intervene and stop the vote. Argentina lays claim to the Islands, calling them the Malvinas. In the referendum an overwhelming 98.8 percent of the Falklands population voted to remain British.
Scotland
The Scottish government has scheduled a referendum for September 2014 to ask its population whether it wants independence from the United Kingdom. Britain has said if Scotland breaks away it will not be able to use the pound and will have to reapply for EU membership. The Scottish government, for its part, has resolved to eject all British nuclear weapons from the country should its population vote to be separate.
South Sudan
After a long and bloody conflict, South Sudan separated from the north in 2011 to become the world’s youngest nation state. Then-US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton hailed the move as a historic day and “a testament to the tireless efforts of the people of South Sudan in their search for peace.” Washington has since spent around $600 million in building the new nation, but has frozen payments because of an escalation of violence in the fledgling nation.
Catalonia
The autonomous Spanish region of Catalonia has announced it will hold a vote to decide on whether it wants independence from Spain in September. Madrid has slammed the referendum as illegal and in violation of the Spanish constitution because it questions Spanish sovereignty. Spain’s crippling financial crisis has led to a growing separatist movement in Catalonia over the last few years.
http://rt.com/news/referendums-ukraine-west-relations-782/

Posted by: brian | Mar 15 2014 4:00 utc | 96

@79 guest77: Maybe it wasn't deliberate, but Petri is extremely misleading. First, "The second is a Canadian book from 1987 that exposes the Holodomor myth as a hoax." Well, the Holodomor is not a myth, the myth is the idea that it was a genocide against Ukrainians. Second, "The stories of millions of deaths caused by famine in Ukraine in 1933 and 1934 ... were fabricated by Nazi propagandists in their propaganda campaigns against Bolshevism." Again, "the stories of millions of deaths caused by famine" were true and were not fabricated.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 15 2014 4:02 utc | 97

It is I suppose not too astounding that certain proven liars here are still promoting Tottles Holodomor denying book as if it were not discredited by being withdrawn from sale a few months after its publication -

It is a measure of their complete moral bankruptcy and utter lack of honesty that they do not even hint at that salient fact.

Why anyone would listen to another word from these cheap little peddlers of 2nd rate propaganda, after knowing they will lie so blatantly, is a mystery.

Tottles Holodomor denying book was withdrawn because of subsequent addmissions by the Ukraine SSR, which undermined its claim that the Holodomor was a lie invented by the nazis - the mental deficients that constitute the moa Holodomor-deniers-in-residence group would have one believing that the later
Ukrainian SSR admissions were also a nazi plot. Bizarrely enough for these dishonest fools, it seems the nazis are to blame for Soviet admissions made nearly 50 yrs after the defeat of the Nazis.

So for the moral midgets of the Holodomor-deniers club, it is someone else, anyone but the Soviets, (the people that actually stole the food), that is to blame for everything. And all despite the fact undeniable fact that it was the Soviets that were in power in Ukraine and it was the Soviets that stole the food from the Ukrainian farmers, which was the action that led to the death of millions of Ukrainians

Blame everyone else and use as evidence a book you already know was withdrawn in the very year of its publication.

Hows that for blatant dishonesty!

But of course the liars don't care much for such things as honesty, since all that matters for them is the end result, which they are convinced must be noble, since they have convinced themselves that they are noble, therefore any action they take, no matter how despicable, must also be noble.

And in this they are indistinguishable from their ideological cousins, the neo-cons.

Anyone that can so blatantly lie about and dismiss the death of millions in the holodomor, while fetishising the holocaust, as these people always do, is a truely despicable individual, capable of great deception if ever given an opportunity.

Posted by: brb | Mar 15 2014 4:05 utc | 98

@79 guest77: Maybe it wasn't deliberate, but Petri is extremely misleading.

But it was deliberate. They admitted in 89 that they had been warned of the situation, how dire it was in Ukraine, and history shows that they went ahead and stole the food anyway. No one but a liar can pretend that they did so not knowing well the likely consequences

Hard to get more deliberate

Posted by: brb | Mar 15 2014 4:09 utc | 99

Well, lookee here, if this was the FIRST TIME that I saw some of my commentary end up being in bevin's posts after he's quietly conceded that he's lost an argument I'd be surprised

You even borrowed my not "paying a price" line!! That was a good one, huh?

You were expecting integrity?

More fool you.

The ideologically driven dont really do it.

End justifying the means and all

Posted by: brb | Mar 15 2014 4:13 utc | 100

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