Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 21, 2014
Robert Kaplan Writes In Defense Of Slavery

Neocon Robert Kaplan is writing In Defense of Empire. Empire is good, he believes, even for those who a ruled by it without having any representation. The lunacy of his arguments can be show best when one substitute the object of his essay:

Throughout history, governance and relative safety have most often been provided by slavery, Western or Eastern. Anarchy reigned in the interregnums. To wit, the British may have failed in Baghdad, Palestine, and elsewhere, but the larger history of the British slaveholdership is one of providing a vast armature of stability, fostered by sea and rail communications, where before there had been demonstrably less stability.

But slavery is now seen by global elites as altogether evil, despite slaveholdership having offered the most benign form of order for thousands of years, keeping the anarchy of ethnic, tribal, and sectarian war bands to a reasonable minimum. Compared with slaveholdership, democracy is a new and uncertain phenomenon. Even the two most estimable democracies in modern history, the United States and Great Britain, were slaveholdership for long periods. “As both a dream and a fact the American slaveholdership was born before the United States,” writes the mid-20th-century historian of westward expansion Bernard DeVoto. Following their initial settlement, and before their incorporation as states, the western territories were nothing less than slaveholdership possessions of Washington, D.C. No surprise there: slaveholdership confers a loose and accepted form of sovereignty, occupying a middle ground between anarchy and full state control.

Rome, Parthia, and Hapsburg Austria were great precisely because they gave significant parts of the world a modicum of slavery order that they would not otherwise have enjoyed. America must presently do likewise, particularly in East Asia, the geographic heartland of the world economy and the home of American treaty allies.

That, I submit, would be a policy direction that internalizes both the drawbacks and the benefits of slaveholdership, not as it has been conventionally thought of, but as it has actually been practiced throughout history.

It is somewhat frightening that people believing such nonsense have influence in political circles.

Comments

@94 Mr. Pragma
Mikhail Fridman Zionist Oligarch:

He has been an active supporter of Jewish initiatives in Russia and Europe. In 1996 Fridman was one of the founders of the Russian Jewish Congress, now sitting on the RJC Presidium. He makes large contribution to the work of the European Jewish Fund, a non-profit organization aimed at developing European Jewry and promoting tolerance and reconciliation on the continent.[5]

Presently, a member of the Public Chamber of Russia. Was presented with an award by Bill Clinton, uber-supporter of Zionism.
What is this? A case of keep your friends close and enemies closer? I wouldn’t trust a Zionist as far as I can spit! How many Zionists are in his entourage? I hope Putin doesn’t end up like Caesar – stabbled in the back by those close to him – et tu Brute?

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 22 2014 14:27 utc | 101

Link for details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Fridman

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 22 2014 14:28 utc | 102

Mr. Putin is a man of the people? Okay, if you say so…but that’s not saying much, is it, since Russians are apparently a murderous bunch as is witnessed by its crime statistics? Perhaps Mr. Putin should spend a little more time cleaning up his front (and back) yard before messing up his neighbors’ yards. Or maybe he and his wealthy goon friends like it that way. If he wanted to clean up the crime, he would. One call to the likes of Guiliani would give him the blueprint–for a fee, of course. But no, the brutality and murder continues in Russia pretty much unabated. And now Putin and his goons have aspirations to expand this mentality to countries that border Russia.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Mar 22 2014 14:29 utc | 103

Old Czech joke: The Russians imposed a midnight curfew. One night, two Russian soldiers on patrol noticed a man hurrying down the street a few minutes before midnight. One of the soldiers shot him in the back. The other exclaimed why did you do that? It’s not midnight yet. The first replied, I know where he lived. He wasn’t going to make it.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Mar 22 2014 14:30 utc | 104

Mikhail Fridman and his fellow Russian Jewish philanthropists are ponying up some serious cash to create what is being touted as a “Jewish Nobel Prize.” The Russian billionaire and co-founder of the five-year-old Genesis philanthropy group announced the creation of a $1 million prize that will be awarded to Jews who win global recognition for their professional achievements, including in the world of science and the arts. The prize, launched in collaboration with the Israeli government, was announced on Tuesday, which coincided with the visit of Russian president Vladimir Putin to Israel. The award will be presented annually by the Israeli prime minister around Passover time. As if the world was short on Jewish Nobel Prize winners.

Read more: http://www.jta.org/2012/06/29/life-religion/friday-five-ankie-spitzer-hateful-elmo-aaron-sorkin-mikhail-fridman-and-pamela-geller#ixzz2whaPoKar

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 22 2014 14:31 utc | 105

Crash Craddock@78,
Neocon Zionists, aka Israeli Firsters, and most of the One Percent on Wall Street have owned Congress and the mainstream media propaganda machine since the beginning of modern print, and then broadcast media. By this control of what people read, hear, and see, they have been able to control what people believe and think. Game set match, until now.
Now, the internet has opened the Pandora’s box of Truth, and as people have an instinct for the truth, they are beginning to see what was concealed from them before. (And they’re inevitably getting smarter, developing the skill needed to distinguish noisy nonsense from correct information.) So Robert Kagan and other neocon Zionists like him whose first loyalty is to Israel, are rightly worried that when the “tapestry of lies” is stripped away, and the American people see the extent of the Zionist subversion, there will be consequences.
This is the pattern of five-thousand years of Jewish history: they go somewhere, do very well by themselves and the locals, then they get powerful, and they overreach and become abusive, at which point the locals accost them, or holocaust them. This is how Jewish talent becomes Jewish self-destruction.
This is sad enough, but as an American, I’m particularly dismayed, because the American Jews in my surrounding community have — too easily I must confess — been hoodwinked into supporting the Zionist criminal enterprise.
Stealing someone else’s country to start your own — despite all the historical precedent — is not a good strategy, particularly when the folks whose country you stole have a billion and a half co-religionists out there unhappy about the theft.
H/T: antiwar.com

Posted by: Cynthia | Mar 22 2014 14:34 utc | 106

Let’s get some definitions right, ok. Zionism in this day and age means no more and no less than a strong supporter of the state of Israel. It simply doesn’t mean “Jew”, but it does mean condoning increased settlements and outrageous attacks against Gaza, etc. The entire movement is a bit more than 100 years old; it began at roughly the same time that TR and his lovely “White Fleet” sailed the Pacific to do some of the same lovely stuff to the Philippines that we’d been doing to North America since the 1600’s and the rest of the Americas since the 1800s (the entire purpose of the Monroe Doctrine was to legitimize it).
Okay, a bit more history: our entry into WWI was, among other things, closely related to the Balfour Doctrine. We did it for many mercantile reasons as well (DuPont vs. Krupp, etc.), but the point is, just like the Yalies in OSS whose families had been bankrolling Hitler before (and during, see: Prescott Bush) WWII then snarfed up a bunch of leading Nazis afterwards, different people w/different goals and beliefs, can work together when it suits their purposes. And “Israel returning to Zion” was and is a MAJOR theme for the Puritans, both here and in England (look up Dispensationalism; it’s a big deal) and various other groups of Christians.
So yes, no CT here at all, but why waste time separating out blame: it’s a many-headed monster that’s easily judged simply by its effects, summed up as harm to innocent people in the furtherance of… whatever.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 22 2014 14:34 utc | 107

kalithea
a) Putin is a pragmatic who tries to *integrate* all the diverse groups. As long as m.f. and the likes stick to the rules, it’s O.K.
And frankly, who cares a cigar about the clintons?
b) Rest assured that m.f. *is* sticking to the rules. After all zionism is only the second priority of rich zionists …
@ cold n holefield
Great. Good to see that you despise Putin. That’s a strong indicator for Putin doing an excellent job.
As for Putins often implied and never proven western expansion desires:
Well, actually most zeuropeans would just LOVE to have a president who actually works *for* them and *for* the country.
hollande, merkel, cameron and all the other puppets definitely and obviously do *not* care batshit about “their” countries or people.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 22 2014 14:36 utc | 108

fairleft, I left some stuff for you that you may not have read. I’m putting it here but will not engage you again until you’ve digested at least one of the readings I suggested.
I have an honest question I wish you’d really think about. I’m assuming you’re an American, like me. And we have no compunction praising our fellow Americans when they do something in accord with our values, and criticizing them when they don’t. I.e., we’re not blindly zenophobic, right? And I think that’s pretty generally true for most of the people here, whatever their ethnicity: they can criticize “their own” when they find it warranted, based on what the person, or group of people, did. So I’m wondering about your blind spot: are all Jews blameless just by definition, or might some of them, sometimes, do something objectionable? And if so, why is no one allowed to say so? In my family’s background are lots of different peoples who at various times were subjected to hideous repression, ethnic cleansing and yes, genocide, but I still see no reason not to criticize them when they’re doing something wrong — why can’t you? And please don’t invoke the Holocaust: I can trump you in my own background by hundreds of years and millions of people. Really: not all Jews are perfect or blameless, and we’re not really talking Jews anyhow, we’re talking support for criminal acts by the state of Israel, supported here in America by a LOT more Christians than Jews. I.e., Zionism.
Sometimes this knee-jerk respose is just group-think by otherwise decent people who’ve been frightened and brainwashed their entire lives and might possibly be reachable. Gilad Atzmon, Israel Adam Shamir and Philip Weiss, to name just three, all started out like that too — and then grew. I was trying to give fairleft an opportunity to open his mind a bit; he can take it not, as he chooses.
In any case, please read Norton Mezvinsky and Israel Shahak, “Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel”, Israel Shahak, a Holocuast survivor, btw, “Jewish History, Jewish Religion”, and a piece up on CounterPunch right now:http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/03/21/the-origins-of-the-israel-lobby-in-the-us/
You seem like a decent person: please read these. It won’t be easy for you — it’s hard to challenge deeply-ingrained beliefs — but reading these books with a mind open to seeing things differently is more than worth it.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 22 2014 14:47 utc | 109

Nora @ 106: Good summation and historical definitions, think I agree.

Posted by: ben | Mar 22 2014 14:54 utc | 110

Nora
In all friendliness, it seems you just don’t get it. Yes, fairleft is somewhat more professional than, say thomas, in not exclusively relying on crude attacks and gross propaganda.
He is, however, nevertheless and evidently a fervent pro-zionist and trying his best to do their work here.
(But of course, this is but some friendly sentences. Feel free by all means to continue your endeavour)

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 22 2014 15:00 utc | 111

ben @ 109
Thank you.
Mr. P @ 110
Just giving him the benefit of the doubt this one last time.
But those two books and Allison Weir’s piece imo are important for anyone who wants to be informed; there’s a lot of data in each of them that simply cannot be refuted. And Shahak’s book is still available online, I think.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 22 2014 15:10 utc | 112

105) Especially when it was the British who promised the place to two peoples
for a) get support in their fight against the Ottoman empire (who had robbed the place before them)
to b) have a “European” colony to subject the natives.
Saying you are not Main Stream Media and making up your own truth does you better than Main Stream Media.
Americans inherited the British empire that is all there is to it. Deal with it.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 22 2014 15:12 utc | 113

… 112) correction does not make you better than Main Stream Media.
addition: it just spreads more prejudice.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 22 2014 15:14 utc | 114

Imperialism benefits no one but a small slice of the ruling class. But it’s always defended as if it’s the only thing providing food for the average person. It’s been true since the Roman empire. The looting oriented British Raj stripped away so much and somehow almost none of it ended up in the hands of the average Briton. Same for the Kingdoms of Spain and Portugal. It’s just no good. I don’t know how long it will take for average people to understand it.

Posted by: Crest | Mar 22 2014 15:31 utc | 115

The interest in slavery is not just neo-connish etc. but in a way, underground, an interest of Big Corporations (1).
Not, imho, in first place because of the ‘cheap labor’ but because of issues of control.
Right now we are living in a world that is organized in part by nation-states (as a kind of ultimate authority) and for another part, not well coordinated with the first, by Big Corporations, who increasingly control Banking and Finance, thus also say pol. contributions in the US, territory (2) and its uses, supra-territorial matters such as communications and benchmarks (internet, the control of space, rating agencies, for ex.), and other related matters like patent laws.
Slavery as an official doctrine is not in their interests, cheap labor is already available thru modern slavery. So they keep a low profile, and let their ‘elected’ representatives take the flack.
Such clashing interests are well illustrated in the case of Ukraine, where the confusion of the Western ‘nation-states’ has become pathetically ridiculous, as they cannot make public their lack of power and attendant subservience to Corporate interests. They are kind of ‘holding on’ to keep some hand in the game, and mobilizing their ‘electorate’ with propaganda, as that is where their livelihood come from.
One article about Corp. interests in Ukraine:
Consortium news, March 16, 2014
http://tinyurl.com/omfmbp5
1. Shell, BP, Total, plus many others in the energy field. Also the likes of Glencore Xstrata, Cargill, AXA, Monsanto, Nestlé, JP Morgan, etc. etc. all entwined in a kind of global network.
2. Straight out buying and leasing land; owning thru investments and ‘deals’, exploration rights, mineral rights, agriculture, transport hubs (pipelines, shipping, ports, the machines that implement the transport, etc.)

Posted by: Noirette | Mar 22 2014 15:37 utc | 116

If this was a true “Leftist” forum, one would think there would be cheering as the wealthy gouge each others eyes out. But no, instead what we get is cheering for one side of the wealthy bloodsuckers since they’re not Jewish, apparently.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/putins-banker-yuri-kovalchuk-ligarchs-close-friends-us-sanctions-hitlist-1441152
I like this comment:

Stephen Cass · University of Oxford
Sad thing is most of these scumbags and excrement are living it up in London, not the US. When the UK stops whoring itself to Russian money launderers (Chelski Football Club? DA!), Putler will be on the run…

Real “Leftists” would smash those businesses that cater to these scumbags. Look at their Cold, Dead Eyes. They don’t think twice about selling young girls into slavery and creating junkies out of an entire nation. They remind of the West Yorkshire scumbag “leaders” in the Red Riding trilogy. I can hear them and Putin saying, “in the North, we do and take what we want” as they raise their champagne glasses for a toast. The resemblance is uncanny. They could have starred in the movie.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Mar 22 2014 15:44 utc | 117

In the tiny minds of these neocons, it is possible that in some simplified way, the marxist theory of the falling rate of profit penetrated, at least sufficiently for this one to infer that wage labour is inexorably doomed by its own internal contradictions. However, applying the same marxian analysis, it is possible to prove that an economy based on slave labour generates no capitalist profits at all.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Mar 22 2014 15:45 utc | 118

israel is a vassal state r giap
Israel (in the form of its present Govmt, and past as well) is US State number 51, a splinter outpost on foreign lands.
Its continuing existence in the shape of its crazily belligerent and racist, apartheid stance, and all the dire cruelties we know about, is maintained by the unwavering support and investment from the US, though EU poodles have followed along. (See e.g. UN vetos, etc.) It is a sick, symbiotic relationship, with one party acting the thug, encouraged by the backer. It is economically dependent on its masters so cannot stop, and leaders of course join for their own personal interests.
Not to minimize the influence of the “Jewish / Isr. lobby” e.g. Walt and Mearsheimer, etc. whatever – exists because it is welcomed, and then provides strange grist to many lunatic mills.

Posted by: Noirette | Mar 22 2014 15:47 utc | 119

Patrick deHahn ‏@patrickdehahn 20h
NBC News: New U S. State Dept travel warning tells citizens to defer travel to east regions of Kharkiv, Donetsk and Lugansk in Ukraine …………………..so is west ukraine safe?>!!

Posted by: brian | Mar 22 2014 15:49 utc | 120

@ Crest 114
Good points. The sorrow is, average people have rarely been in a position to do anything anyhow; they’re generally too busy just trying to survive. What we’re seeing now in both the EU and US is the steep downward slope of economic and political disempowerment while (hopefully) heading upwards is the shallower slope of public understanding. Will they intersect in time, i.e., while people still have enough power to do something about it? Who knows. And what can people do? In the US the angry folks with guns have been successfully brainwashed to ultimately support TPTB — while believing they’re rebelling against them. (Some really clever work there, worth of Goebbels at his best.)

Posted by: Nora | Mar 22 2014 15:53 utc | 121

#120 aargh: “worthy” of Goebbels at his best.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 22 2014 15:56 utc | 122

Here’s a good one: Soros wants us to dump our strategic reserves and crash the oil market. WTF?
http://voiceofrussia.com/2014_03_22/Ukraine-crisis-oddities-Tycoon-George-Soros-wants-US-to-crash-oil-market-1957/

Posted by: Nora | Mar 22 2014 16:06 utc | 123

Cynthia at 105:

This is the pattern of five-thousand years of Jewish history: they go somewhere, do very well by themselves and the locals, then they get powerful, and they overreach and become abusive, at which point the locals accost them, or holocaust them. This is how Jewish talent becomes Jewish self-destruction.

Hi Cynthia! Are you part of Pragma’s takedown of moonofalabama or are you just a stupid solo anti-Semite? If the latter, how did you find your way here?

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 22 2014 16:07 utc | 124

Cynthia #105
Ignore him.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 22 2014 16:14 utc | 125

Nora @ 108: Your’re on a roll today it seems. Your expression at 108 truly fits MOST folks here at MOA, at least I sincerely hope so. Like society in general, there are people afoot in this world, who get PAYED to disrupt objectivity on the Internet and the Media.

Posted by: ben | Mar 22 2014 16:24 utc | 126

It’s obvious. b has done an excellent job with MoA.
All those fairleft, thomas, and other zionists in berserk mode area major compliment to b and MoA.
Thank you, zionist fans and agents, for confirming so clearly and fervently that MoA and many of its long term contributors are on the right track!

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 22 2014 16:29 utc | 127

All those who cheer Putin and his scumbag excrement oligarch friends are cheering human trafficking. Such cheerleading in the form of carrying their water is disgusting as women and children continue to suffer at the hands of these creeps.
Russia, China continue to allow human trafficking

The report also describes widespread sex trafficking of Russian women and children domestically and abroad. Though the incidence of such crimes has increased, prosecutions have remained flat. Meanwhile, President Vladi­mir Putin’s oppression of civil society is harming local nonprofit organizations that seek to help victims of trafficking. His petulant prohibition of U.S. adoptions of Russian orphans was another blow, especially because that population group is targeted by traffickers.
Under the law, a Tier 3 ranking opens the way for the United States to withhold non-humanitarian, non-trade-related foreign assistance, though President Obama may choose not to impose sanctions. Whatever the practical consequences, the report’s authors were right not to fudge the evidence.
Tier 3 countries have governments either too fragile to combat trafficking or too indifferent to make it a priority. Russia, like China, falls into the second category. Twenty-first-century trafficking reminiscent of 19th-century slavery demands engagement. Russia’s demotion is another sign that its government is floating away from the world order in a manner harmful to its people.

Posted by: Cold N. Holefield | Mar 22 2014 16:41 utc | 128

@126 – true. it would be nice if folks ignored those who they believe are full of shite too, lol.. i think b would benefit correcting the kagan verses kaplan issue.. both of them are friggin nutso’s but still..

Posted by: james | Mar 22 2014 16:41 utc | 129

108/125 – err … what has anybody’s race, religion or nationality got to do with how they act?
To be able to be a thief, robber or murderer is universal, no? So people who connect a crime to a race, religion or nationality would attempt what?

Posted by: somebody | Mar 22 2014 16:43 utc | 130

ot – cannonfire has a good article titled “propaganda and truth” that some might enjoy reading – http://cannonfire.blogspot.ca/2014/03/propaganda-and-truth.html

Posted by: james | Mar 22 2014 16:46 utc | 131

@126, concerned about human trafficking ?
Wipe your ass first
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Kosovo

Posted by: zingaro | Mar 22 2014 16:55 utc | 132

mm, sorry, that was for the @127 Washing/Ton barking dog 🙂

Posted by: zingaro | Mar 22 2014 16:57 utc | 133

Cold N. Holefield
Thanks for confirming that you are but a system bot by molesting us with bullshit from you “information source” wapo, a zionist bastion that can be classified as, to use your words, scumbag excrement.
No more questions, thanks.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 22 2014 16:59 utc | 134

@99 – mr pragma.. i enjoyed that!

Posted by: james | Mar 22 2014 17:03 utc | 135

Zionist supremacy indoctrination:

In 2003, Rabbi Saadya Grama of the Beth Medrash Govoha, the renowned Talmudic school of Lakewood, NJ, published a book in which he claimed that Gentiles were completely evil and that Jews constituted a separate, genetically superior species.
The book published under the Hebrew Title “Romemut Yisrael Ufarsahat Hagalut” quoted numerous classical Jewish sources to prove Jewish superiority over the rest of humankind.
The difference between Jews and gentiles, he argued, is not religious, historical, cultural, or political. It is rather racial, genetic, and scientifically unalterable. The one groups is at its very root and by natural constitution “totally evil” while the other is “totally good”
If gentiles (goyem) are inherently inferior to Jews, and if their very humanity is presumed to be denied, it is axiomatically inferred from this that these gentiles have inherently lesser rights than Jews do.
Indeed, some Talmudic references do refer to gentiles as “animals walking on two feet instead of four”.
Even today, some Rabbis, such as David Batsri, invoke the “bestiality” of non-Jews, claiming that the Creator created them with two legs instead of four in deference to Jews, because it is not appropriate that Jews be served with four-legged animals.
Rabbi Abraham Kook, the religious mentor of the settler movement, taught that “the difference between a Jewish soul and souls of non-Jews — all of them in all different levels — is greater and deeper than the difference between a human soul and the souls of cattle.” (Reuters Photo)
Remarks by the Israeli Minister of Interior Yaakov Neeman suggesting that the Jewish religious law (Halacha) should be adopted as the “law of the land” in the Jewish state has drawn strong reactions from both Jews and non-Jews.
“Step by step, we will bestow upon the citizens of Israel the laws of the Torah and we will turn Halacha into the binding law of the nation,” Neeman told Rabbis at a Jewish law convention in occupied Jerusalem in December 2009.
“We must bring back the heritage of our fathers to the nation of Israel,” he said. “The torah has the complete solution to all of the questions we are dealing with.”
Neeman’s statements were met applauds from participants who included high-ranking Rabbis, as well as representatives of religious parties.
However, for non-Jews, who now constitute nearly 50 percent of the total population in occupied Palestine, Neeman’s remarks are a serious cause for concern since Halacha, at least according to the Orthodox Jewish interpretation, does not recognize the full humanity of non-Jews.
Hence, non-Jews living under Halacha must accept to live under a perpetual state of inferiority, if not persecution.
Lesser in Every Aspect
According to Orthodox Judaism, a non-Jew (goy) is inferior to a Jew in every conceivable aspect. This inferiority is absolute, inherent, intrinsic, and not subject to any related or unrelated factors.
Rabbi Abraham Kook, the religious mentor of the settler movement, taught that “the difference between a Jewish soul and souls of non-Jews — all of them in all different levels — is greater and deeper than the difference between a human soul and the souls of cattle.”
The teachings of Kook are based on the Lurianic Cabala (Jewish mysticism), which teaches the absolute superiority of the Jewish soul and body over the non-Jewish soul and body. This means, according to one Rabbi who is member of the Chabadi Lubovitcher sect, that “every simple cell in a Jewish body entails divinity and is part of God.”
In 2003, Rabbi Saadya Grama of the Beth Medrash Govoha, the renowned Talmudic school of Lakewood, NJ, published a book in which he claimed that Gentiles were completely evil and that Jews constituted a separate, genetically superior species.
The book published under the Hebrew Title “Romemut Yisrael Ufarsahat Hagalut” quoted numerous classical Jewish sources to prove Jewish superiority over the rest of humankind.
The difference between Jews and gentiles, he argued, is not religious, historical, cultural, or political. It is rather racial, genetic, and scientifically unalterable. The one groups is at its very root and by natural constitution “totally evil” while the other is “totally good”
“Jewish successes in the world are completely contingent upon the failure of all other peoples. Only when the gentiles face total catastrophe, Jews do experience good fortune.”
“The Jews themselves brought about their own destruction during the Holocaust, since they arrogantly endeavored to overcome their very essence, dictated by divine law.”
While castigated by many Jewish figures, religious and secular, for its brazen racism, Grama’s thesis is not really in conflict with the Rabbis of Gush Emunim (the settler camp) and the rest of the National religious movement in Israel today.
He readily applies Torah passages against idolaters, other pagans to Christianity and Islam, and other monotheists who worship the God of Abraham, the very God proclaimed by the Torah.
He also ignores extensive Rabbinic deliberations during the medieval period, which concluded that both Islam and Christianity as “licit, monotheistic faiths.”
Hence, Muslims and Christians could not be lumped in one category with the idol-worshipers of earlier times.
Sub-human Slaves
If gentiles (goyem) are inherently inferior to Jews, and if their very humanity is presumed to be denied, it is axiomatically inferred from this that these gentiles have inherently lesser rights than Jews do.
Indeed, some Talmudic references do refer to gentiles as “animals walking on two feet instead of four”.
Even today, some Rabbis, such as David Batsri, invoke the “bestiality” of non-Jews, claiming that the Creator created them with two legs instead of four in deference to Jews, because it is not appropriate that Jews be served with four-legged animals.
It is true that this view is not shared by all Rabbis, especially the enlightened ones. However, it is also true that some prominent sages holding both Halachic and historical weight are among the main advocates of this pure racism.
For example, according to the code of Maimonides (Rambam): “A Jew who killed a non-Jew is exempt from human judgment, and has not violated the prohibition of murder.”
This code is implicitly practiced by Jewish settler judges when dealing with Jews convicted of killing Palestinians, which explains the extremely light punishments meted out to the perpetrators, especially in comparison to Arabs convicted of the same felony.

And here’s the perfect explanation for ummm…imperial supremacist hegemony:

“Jewish successes in the world are completely contingent upon the failure of all other peoples. Only when the gentiles face total catastrophe, Jews do experience good fortune.”

And yet more shocking supremacist garbage…
https://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2010/02/24/living-under-israels-jewish-law/
Oh and here’s our favorite Rabbi Ovadia:

“Non-Jews were born only to serve us. Without that, they have no place in the world-only to serve the People of Israel.”
In Israel, death has no dominion over them…With gentiles, it will be like any person-They need to die, but God will give them longevity. Why? Imagine that one’s donkey would die, they’d lose their money.
“This is his servant…That’s why he gets a long life, to work well for this Jew.”
“why are gentiles needed? They will work, they will plow, they will reap; and we will sit like an effendi and eat.”
“That is why gentiles were created.”
And settler Rabbi Abraham Kook (great last name!):
“The difference between a Jewish soul and souls of non-Jews — all of them in all different levels — is greater and deeper than the difference between a human soul and the souls of cattle.”

Oh and here’s Ovadia picking his own brain:
http://mondoweiss.net/2010/11/god-isnt-finished-with-me-yet.html
Teach your children well; to load Kalashnikovs write on bombs that kill and main Palestinian children and kick and spit on their poor grandmothers while you pull off their hijab.
This is what the new generation of Zionists are learning.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 22 2014 17:08 utc | 136

The actual kinship of zionism and US-imperialism is based on both israel and the US are settler-societies that never came to be nations.
The expression “nation-state” inverses the factual notions of nation and state. Though a state can enforce submission it can’t establish sovereignty. Souvereignty has to be effected by mental and ideological submission of the subject itself to his master and therefore its not fully established without the rule of law.
While the american secession war is duly called a civil war, because it established rule of law within the union states it left the relation of union states to the federal state widely outside this rule. The rule of the federal state became and stayed a military and mafia-like hegemony established on constant war and the amalgamation of military, political and economic clout in corporative elite clans, families, alumnis and the union bureaucracy itself.
The force, that drove this rule of war and corporative hegemony in the american federation after the civil war was accomplishment of the genocice of native cultures. It followed (selection): Spanish-American war, Philippine war, the enforcement of the Monroe Doctrin in Cuba, Hawai, Samoa, Venezuela. But it had another component: The federal war on the working class and their partly imported organizations. Then followed WWI and WWII, which were essentially wars against the french and britisch empire.
So the USA never became a nation. The settler-state of freedom of private property was directly converted to an empire-state ruled by a corporative elite of oligarchs, military staff and a serfing legion of descendant bureaucratic personnel.
It is easy to see, that the never established and unestablishable “Jewish State”, the corporative military rule of a zionist Oligarchy in Israel follows roughly the same pattern.
This is a kind of basic line in a history full of contradictions. Mind the suez-war followed by the nuclear armament of Israel by France against the will of the american hegemon. And mind that Israel nowadays has but one enemy it has to fear: The faction of US-elite, which wants to establish a new and stable order in the middle east instead of “creative” chaos in favour of Israel and SA. The faction that would welcome an iranian gas-pipeline from South Pars to the mediterranian, try to keep the integrity of Syria and Lebanon and split the GCC.

I tried my best to bring forward my thougts in a tongue that never became mine although I read it every day, because there was nobody deconstructing the “zionist evil”-talk without referring to quasi-religious attitudes and delusive facts and figures that tell nearly nothing about their coherence. If it was too bad – just tell me and I won’t follow up or try again.

Posted by: TomGard | Mar 22 2014 18:45 utc | 137

TomGard # 137
Please don’t stop. You’ve expressed yourself very well and set out some good stuff to consider. I’m not sure I agree with all of it, but a lot of it makes a whole lot of sense and I really need time to chew over all the rest. Thank you!

Posted by: Nora | Mar 22 2014 19:08 utc | 138

noirette
watch out old friendn common sense is seen by the mr pragmas here as making you a hasbara, as if they would write in our particularly convuluted way
well fuck them? i detest intentional stupidity, conspiracy theorists most of all, they are the brothers of fascism – they want a simple answer to a complex problem – so blame the jews, but they would blame the slavs, or roms or aboriginals if they could, it is a kind of crudeness that you only witness in either liberals or fascists
pragma does not even seem to know his history of the vor, how they were established etc, how they fir itn etc, he could start by reading khlebnikov who was bumped off for telling the truth
hello, outraged, long time my friend
the best analysis of the malignancy of empire is ‘moby dick’ but yes thr dulles brothers & james hesus angleton are a good point to being to see it fescending into depravity & completely crazy
notice something pragma, angols; ivy league, pieces of shit
puppets are not masters
jewish conspiracy; my arse

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 22 2014 19:10 utc | 139

b offers a space to really analyse what is happening in this world gone wrong & people like pragma jack off to some 19th century hoax that has somehow passed through the bloated body & mind of alex jones
read lin piao

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 22 2014 19:22 utc | 140

r’giap
As long as Mr. Pragma argues and elaborates his point of view while r’giap and others just try cheap shots I’m not at all worried.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 22 2014 19:36 utc | 141

i have no desire to worry you
i just demand that you introduce yourself to considered reflection, something it seems you are congenitally allergic to

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 22 2014 19:39 utc | 142

Demand whatever you please. You don’t set my goals.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 22 2014 19:46 utc | 143

Nora 138
Okay, thank you, then I want ro add an inference though it needed a bunch of constituents and chain-links to corroborate it:
The US Federal State is warring for it’s very existance. If it ends beeing the executive power of imperialistic metropolises it will probably fall apart, even in the most favorable circumstances you might think of, because of its lack of national substance. Thats the interface to the fight of the zionist oligarchy for their status as “villa in the jungle”, their rule as warlords who can and “must” project power in all the near and middle east and even north africa to stay the ruling power in palestine. This strongly associates them to the before mentioned faction of the US-elite, especially the MIF(inancial)C.
There is no other evil as the evil of war and it’s cause in freedom and accumulation of competing private property.

Posted by: TomGard | Mar 22 2014 20:09 utc | 144

TomGard,
I’ve cut-and-pasted everything bc I just can’t give it the time it deserves right this afternoon. I will though, I promise: it just may take me a little while bc it’s a very different way of looking at things and I really need to examine it more carefully. And again, thank you, it’s really good food for thought and I’ll give it my best.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 22 2014 20:22 utc | 145

@137 /144 – tomgard. i 2nd nora’s response to you in that i find your commentary highly educational in so far as you articulate a similar viewpoint of mine, but from a very different angle. i am curious what you mean by MIF(inancial)C. – that sounds like what i tend to think military/industrial/financial/complex.. they are definitely rolled into one, even though people look at these entities as being separate and not connected..

Posted by: james | Mar 22 2014 21:14 utc | 146

what a vile little man pragma is, in fact he is no different at all from kaplan or kahan or the whole herd of ‘thinkers’ who don’t think. whose theories are built from the bricks of shit that come out of their mouths
they & you smell of fecal matter, that’s what your thoughts are
your anti semitism is so crude, so culgar, so cretinous, no one can be confused that it is any way an analysis
you don’t analyse, in fact
you get the hots for a war, that more reasonable heads here have told you is quite impossible, but you have not listened because you are capable of listening
be happy with your little herd of jew haters, you are the scum i have fought all my life & i am not about to stop now
& if we encountered in a physical space, i would kick the living shit out of you as a have always done to neo nazis like you

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 22 2014 21:20 utc | 147

one more poster to put on ignore.. the list grows, lol..

Posted by: james | Mar 22 2014 21:25 utc | 148

r’giap
Thanks for giving me a good lough and for dismantling any credibility you might have had around here.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 22 2014 21:30 utc | 149

The result of the neocon meddling in Ukraine has created, as usual, a terrible mess for the “west” and even more so for the Ukrainians. Is there any way to prevent a repeat of such misdeeds?

Yeah, sticking the neocons under water for a week.

Posted by: MRW | Mar 22 2014 21:31 utc | 150

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 22, 2014 3:10:04 PM | 139

Next time, spell check.

Posted by: MRW | Mar 22 2014 21:35 utc | 151

@87 thomas
With you it’s either poop-poop-poop or bawaaaawaaa.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 22 2014 21:45 utc | 152

The American political Elite consists of both Zionists and Anglophiles. Just as Lindbergh said.
Now, as far as the Iraq War, as Congressman Moran said, the Jews were not even nearly solely responsible for driving the United States in, based on WMD lies, but as a group they could have politically vetoed the move, dominant and decisive.
On other foreign/domestic matters, your fractional mileage may vary.

Posted by: amspirnational | Mar 22 2014 22:00 utc | 153

don’t worry about my credibility
with what you scribble i would worry about where you get your ‘facts’

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 22 2014 22:46 utc | 154

Blood diamonds are…a Zionist’s best friend!

Dan Gertler’s grandfather, Moshe Schnitzer (d. November 2007), was known in Israel as “Mr. Diamond;” in youth he joined the pre-state underground organization Etzel (Irgoun), an Israeli military cell self-defined as an “untra-nationationalist Jewish militia,” but one that committed acts of terrorism in service to the Israeli cause.8 Moshe Schnitzer assumed a major role in the Africa-Israeli diamond trade in the 1950’s in a partnership business called Schnitzer-Greenstein. Schnitzer later founded the Israel Diamond Exchange in Tel Aviv in 1960, which today brings Israel $14 billion annually in blood business, and is the country’s second-largest industry, but Israel’s top export. King Leopold III of Belgium decorated Schnitzer in recognition of his activities favoring the close relationship of Belgium, Israel and the DeBeers diamond cartels, and Schnitzer was also President of the Harry Oppenheimer Diamond Museum in Israel.80
The diamond jewelry trade in the United States is more than $30 billion annually, and 99%—everything that is not synthetic or artificial diamonds—involves blood diamonds and the above organized crime syndicates. Israel buys more than 50% of the world’s rough diamonds, and the U.S. buys two-thirds of these. The diamond factories are located in Nethanya, Petach Tikvah, Tel Aviv, Ramat Gan, Jerusalem, and other cities around the country, but most of the offices were in Tel Aviv in the financial district on Ahad Ha’am Street.81 Dan Gertler’s father, Asher Gertler, and his uncle, Shmuel Schnitzer, manage the original family business, and Shmuel is Vice-Chairman of the Belgian-based World Diamond Council—the entity that spends more money promoting the false image of “conflict-free” diamonds than it does helping any of the people dispossessed or brutalized by the diamond industry.48
On August 16, 2007, Rabbi Bentolila in Kinshasa received a communication asking: “What does the Torah say about men exploiting other men for vast profits while other men are starving and dying all around them? Is there some hierarchy to the Torah that suggests, for example, that black people or Africans are lesser beings, and therefore not to be a concern where profound profits are being made?”
There was no reply from Rabbi Bentolila, he was apparently busy readying for another Bar Mitsvah in Belgium. Unfortunately for Dan Gertler and his spiritual advisers, the Torah says that a Jew can keep a slave, but a Jew kept as a slave must be redeemed, and that—an empty, foolish justification for exploiting innocent people—is how religion falsifies spirituality.

http://dissidentvoice.org/2008/02/gertlers-bling-bang-torah-gang/
Zionists seem to enjoy exploiting the poor and the oppressed…depraved bastards.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 22 2014 22:52 utc | 155

@remembererringgiap
So glad to hear your voice … and know you are well.
‘Still Steel’ mon ami

Posted by: Outraged | Mar 23 2014 3:33 utc | 156

@147 It appears you dont do analysis either, but ad hominem.
Interesting.

Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 23 2014 4:36 utc | 157

So much confusion and little light.
The confusion began when b did one of his usual deliberate substitutions to provoke a bit of thought by substituting slavery for empire.
The normal confusion, generally engendered by the more pedantic of us whenever b does a semantic substitution, was hugely increased when b himself confused two asshole neocons of similar name with each other.
Normally b’s substitutions generate thought because the concept summoned by the original wording is considerably different to the concepts generated by its replacement.
This is not the way it is with empire and slavery – two concepts I have always believed to be pretty much indistinguishable from one another.
That is the heart of the issue here, but but adding the confusion from the juxtaposition of similar terms is the confusion many people have about slavery.
For me slavery is enforced labour where a human, regarded as the property of another, is forced to live in a way that is beneficial to his/her ‘masters’ wants, with no regard for his/her own needs.
Amerikan slavery just like the slavery instituted by the original english colonisers, also featured no payments or wages be given the slaves.
That isn’t always the case slaves who are paid are still slaves and may be worse off because of that. The Greek slaves who worked as doctors, secretaries, and retail assistants in imperial Rome frequently were paid for their work, but they were still slaves – their lives were not their own. They were humans who belonged to someone else.
Berkeley is correct at #118 where he points out that slavery without pay ultimately destroys capitalism.
This is why amerika had a civil war. The southern elites wanted to continue as always importing african slaves and paying them nothing, while providing the bare minimum for survival as food & shelter.
The factory and retail giant owning Northen elites couldn’t give a flying fuck about ‘the rights of man’ they wanted to get richer that is why they went to war.
The northern elites preferred the form of slavery that had been evolving in europe since the industrial revolution, where slaves, imported from europe and more culturally acclimated to factory work than africans, whose culture and sense of self had been deliberately destroyed, leaving the recipients of that horror in a vacuum.
The ‘new slaves’ would be responsible for their own upkeep receiving minimum payment to keep themselves in food and shelter, just enough to (a) keep them highly motivated at work and (b) for the elites to profit by taking it back.
Both forms are slavery – the vast majority of humans born into poverty in so-called ‘developed’ nations such as amerika, england, or israel, have as little say in their own destiny as does a domestic slave in Saudi Arabia.
The biggest difference is that the rules are unwritten & unstated allowing the western elites great flexibility in fucking everyone else over.
They don’t need to be written because once the responsibility for feeding yourself and your family is put onto your shoulders in the opprressive and domineering manner which neo-liberal unsocieties put on individuals, the majority follow the same well worn path to personal impoverishment and elite enrichment.
Those who veer off the path – climb outta the rut – can be picked off one by one as needs must. Occasionally one may achieve independence in the form of what seems to be economic self determination, but with few exceptions that is because their divergence suits (& enriches), the slave owners.
This egregious exploitation of ordinary, normal, unsociopathic, humans by the sociopathic elites has been around a lot longer that the organised political movement created to enable followers of Judaism to colonise the Jordan Valley.
If permitted to, ruthless domination of the decent by the greedy will continue long after the zionists have been driven out of the area and the land returned to its original indigenous owners.
Palestinians are the descendants of the people who stayed on, minding their farms and orchards when the despotic monarchists who had comprised Jerusalem’s ruling elite fled from their Roman replacements.
It isn’t merely incorrect to put the cart before the horse by blaming amerikan imperialism on the corrupt israeli regime, it is fucking dangerous and destructive – firstly because it causes too much time and energy be spent upon a mob of petty crims (yes they are psychopaths, but in comparison to the crimes of amerika, israeli leaders are petty crims), but most importantly because blaming ‘the jews’ for the world’s ills is so destructive to resistance against the asshole elites.
If the elites are to be beaten it will be when all the ‘normal’ humans have stuck together in common cause against those who consciously butcher any/all of us for profit.
Once we have learned not to be distracted by deliberately nurtured divisive arguments about race, gender, nationality etc – then we will rid ourselves of the leeches and then, that time, provided we have managed to do so without making any scapegoats, maybe then we will be able to asshole-proof our communities ensuring no new sociopaths slink in again under cover of saving us from oldies, ‘those kids’, morbidly obese, anorexics, gypsies, kaffirs, niggers or jews.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Mar 23 2014 4:39 utc | 158

@147
Yes, thank you for channeling Baruch Goldstein.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 23 2014 5:12 utc | 159

R’Giap. You post are well respected be many at MoA. Personally though, I think Billmon’s “fruitcake” jibe was well deserved.
I have no intention of debating anti-semitism with you. I have noticed over many years, that this is the one hot-button to set you off.
However – note – no discussion with me regarding anti-semitism. That’s beyond the pale – I have no intention of slinging fecal matter all over this blog.
However – your statement “israel is a vassal state” is a strange concept to me.
A quick google found this concept on a Daniel Pipes blog circa 2009 (references below) – but – c’mon – really – you believe this?
Israel as a vassal state of the US
http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/158624
U.S. to Israel: You Decide Nukes in Iran, We Decide Bedrooms in Jerusalem
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2009/07/us-israel-iran-nukes-bedrooms-jerusalem

Posted by: DM | Mar 23 2014 5:22 utc | 160

And in the Jpost site, we have articles commemorating 20 years since the death of Baruch Goldstein.
Thank you David Wilder, for this article. I like to think first and foremost that Doctor Goldstein was a healer living and working under very difficult circumstances…………………..

Posted by: DM | Mar 23 2014 6:07 utc | 161

161) How many inhabitants does Israel have? How many the US? What percentage of US citizens are Jewish?
You must have a theory of Jews being the superior race if you think they can dominate. Of course Israel is a puppet state.
What people are trying with their “anti-zionist” theories of “zionist” rulership of the world is very transparent.
They are either crazy and obsessed or they try to intentionally disrupt the discussion. They sure don’t know anything about history, about who got killed and why.
The recipe is so simple. Tell the stupid class xy people are responsible for their trouble, make them fight each other and rule them.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 23 2014 6:34 utc | 162

@somebody You are disingenuous.
Firstly, you are setting up a straw man by ascribing ‘theories’ to me.
Secondly, your argument is puerile. End of discussion with me.

Posted by: DM | Mar 23 2014 6:58 utc | 163

boy, this “zionism” discussion is getting a but much, lately…

Posted by: peter radiator | Mar 23 2014 7:55 utc | 164

Debs is dead | Mar 23, 2014 12:39:23 AM | 158
Substituting exploitation of labor-power for slavery, then the rule of law in trade and exchange for rule of a “greedy”, “indecent”, “sociopathic” (and, as many consequently say: mentally ill) elite introduces one tribe (“lunatics”) for another (“Jews”) and therefore an alternative racist doctrine. Both are manifestations of still the same patriarch pattern of subjugation of one gender to the other (slavery of women), “order” vs. “chaos”, rule of command vs. rule of reason, rule of decalogue over collective knowledge and judgement,”good” over “evil”, and, following up this pattern, rule of a pristhood over patriarchs, of “God” over “men”, of intellectual workforce (“Kopfarbeit) over handcraft and, ultimately, the worship of psyche. It’s religion combined with the everyday racist interpretation of competition- results by a mix of functionally allocated benchmarks of (awe of) “success” and (worship of) “virtue”. The slightly “modern” manifestations, mythologies and patterns are toothless against the inquisitional redoctrination of “good” and “evil” in times of war, that shows up in a renaissance and reconstruction of tribal thought.
Don’t know if this rant was kind of understandable, so, simply:
There is no such THING as “common cause”. That’s the simple source and agent of racism! But if it’s so one has to infer: There is a common source of the delusion of “common cause” that is transformed in tribal or racist thought. I name this common source: Negation of class struggle. Wage-labor is a historical formation of slavery, thats right, and its based on sheer military power like antique slavery, thats right as well. Its usefull and even necessary to remind those roots, but, since the social fundament of wage-labor slavery is not only different, but antithetic to elder formations, its criticism and scandalization has to be different and even antithetic. “Freedom” is not a cause, even less a “common” one, there is no such THING as freedom except freedom of private property. Walking freely is a cause of lust, convenience and a resulting desire. If it becomes obligative and necessary freedom is over and delusion comes in, solemnizing free movement against the bondage of slavery. Americans could have learned this of native leaders they preferred to stab when they couldn’t break them in cages.

Posted by: TomGard | Mar 23 2014 8:55 utc | 165

@somebody #162
that indeed is a silly argument.
World’s 85 richest individuals have as much money as 3.5billion poorest people PUT TOGETHER
the poor are many, the rich are few. Why do the rich control their lives as well as those of all the poor? What is the ratio of guards to prisoners in a jail? by your logic the prisoners should be in control.
seriously, you can do better than that.
regardless, there is way too much time and effort spent on blaming the jews for this mess. there was plenty of inequality before Moses led the slaves out of Egypt.

Posted by: dan of steele | Mar 23 2014 10:07 utc | 166

166) Of course, numbers translate into political influence.
But in the last analysis power is in the end of a gun. Money gets you nothing if you cannot defend it. So let’s compare the sizes of the US army and the Israeli army, shall we?
The “zionist conspiracy” theory is designed for the “stupid class”.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 23 2014 10:24 utc | 167

somebody @167

[…] But in the last analysis power is in the end of a gun. Money gets you nothing if you cannot defend it. […]

Sure, no guns no power, but at the same token, no money no guns. You see, one needs the money first, and thats where your friendly neighborhood banker comes into the picture. But before it gets too conspiratorial for you, I better won’t elaborate any further.

[…] So let’s compare the sizes of the US army and the Israeli army, shall we? […]

Why? Would only make sense to do so if we’d assume those two are enemies. But they are not. They are close allies, to the point that if Israel would be attacked by any force strong enough to cause sweat in Tel Aviv the US would without blinking once have its military might come to the rescue.
That’s why I called NATO Israel’s ultimate henchmen, troops it knows it can call on should things get hairy one day.
Since the start of the 20th century no country was allowed to attack the US Navy without getting its teeth kicked in, just Israel. Nearly sinking in 1967 the USS Liberty, killing 34 US sailors and wounding more than a 100, but still best friends. Weird relationship to say the least, better not think too much about it.

Posted by: Juan Moment | Mar 23 2014 11:22 utc | 168

168) Well, then lets compare the US GDP to Israel’s GDP. Sorry, there is no way Israel can dominate the US.
Just more dumbing down the “stupid class”.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 23 2014 12:16 utc | 169

The reason the above argument is irresolvable is that neither side is willing to query the relatively PC term “Zionists” in favour of the more inclusive “Jews”. They say that to do this would be “divisive of the class struggle”, which obviously is supposed to be against “the bourgeoisie”, whoever they are – technically, I should say, all those who live off profits or as they call them ‘dividends’. But anyway, this brings us back to the weakness in Marx himself which I mentioned before, namely the apparently deliberate neglect of the power of bankers over industrial capitalists, which even in the 1860s must have been quite evident. So we have to ask, who are the bankers, specifically, the ‘merchant bankers’ who financed the development of western colonialism, and after them the ‘international bankers’ who orchestrate the global pecking order under neo-colonialism. There cannot be more than a few tens of thousands of these specialised creatures, worldwide, and one would like to know whether, by the ruse of history, many of them are Jewish. Then the artificial question of ‘Zionists’ versus ‘Non-Jewish USAian Imperialists’ would resolve itself, because we would be able to see who was pulling the money strings, which ultimately decide all questions great and small.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Mar 23 2014 12:36 utc | 170

Kagan, while he is of Jewish belief, has Zionist tendency, his and his kind ultimate aim, is the resurrection of the Khazar empire, the control of the desert religions, the destruction of the Rus as a nation state.

Posted by: hans | Mar 23 2014 13:14 utc | 171

Somebody, you keep referring to the stupid class. By doing so you’re putting yourself right in it, subset “chardonnay sipping intellectual up themselves bozos”.

Well, then lets compare the US GDP to Israel’s GDP. Sorry, there is no way Israel can dominate the US. […]

You are stuck in this idea that one country dominates the other. What would help our discussion along is if you would open your mind to the possibility a third party dominates both countries. Once you allow for this reality the weird and opaque relationship the US and Israel have, or the EU for that matter, starts to make sense.
The fact that there is this seemingly never ending discussion going on about which country is the dog and which one the tail should tell you that there are enough arguments to be found to make either theory appear plausible. The only way that is possible is if there is a third “unifying” theory, one which explains those arguments without confusion.
And I am afraid to tell you man, the reason those two countries act in unison so often and have each others back in all important international affairs is because the top echelons in both countries live at the whim of someone far more powerful than them. A group of people who with their extended family have say 10 trillion dollars in assets, that’s three times Germany’s GDP, and control a network of influence so wide and ingrained it knows no rival.
Rowan @170

[…] But anyway, this brings us back to the weakness in Marx himself which I mentioned before, namely the apparently deliberate neglect of the power of bankers over industrial capitalists, which even in the 1860s must have been quite evident. So we have to ask, who are the bankers, specifically, the ‘merchant bankers’ who financed the development of western colonialism, and after them the ‘international bankers’ who orchestrate the global pecking order under neo-colonialism. […]

Great summary. Their fingerprints are all over the history of wars.
I don’t believe its tens of thousands, at the very tip of the pyramid, where there isn’t much room left for competition as wealth is so concentrated a clash would cause death to all, I expect a couple of hundred at the most.

Posted by: Juan Moment | Mar 23 2014 13:54 utc | 172

@162 somebody

They are either crazy and obsessed or they try to intentionally disrupt the discussion. They sure don’t know anything about history, about who got killed and why.

The only person trying to intentionally disrupt is YOU.
I haven’t posted consistently on this blog since the Ukraine crisis, so I didn’t much analyze the intentions of every poster. But it didn’t take me long to have you pegged. You are as transparent as Zionists come. You divert, you distract all discussion away from the real guilty party. That’s your main mission here. A hasbara spy in the house of free speech.
FYI, it’s not the percentage, buddy, it’s the power. Occupy was protesting against the 1% holding all the power and hoarding all the wealth.
If I do a run-down of the heads of all the top banks, equity capital and venture capital firms; I’m talking those that have hundreds of billions invested in the whole spectrum of Americam industry I come up with at least 80% run by supporters of Zionism. That’s a whole lot of power behind Zionism!
So don’t give me the percentages bullshit, what level of intelligence quotient do you think we own around here??? Quit insulting our intelligence!

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 23 2014 17:01 utc | 173

Juan Moment | Mar 23, 2014 9:54:40 AM | 172

I don’t believe its tens of thousands, at the very tip of the pyramid, where there isn’t much room left for competition as wealth is so concentrated a clash would cause death to all, I expect a couple of hundred at the most.

That’s the common error here. Competition is not a function of greed and malice, but those are a function of competition. In German competition is called “Konkurrenz” because competition is the one and only mode of concurrence of exclusive and contradictory interests, an acting conflict, an ongoing and never endable fight. Never ending, because this fight is the very core of (economic) property. You can’t keep private property, it dissolves through your hands if you don’t add to it.
So you have the contradiction and fight of (selection):
Purchaser vs seller
Importer vs exporter
Industry vs business
Business vs commerce
Commerce vs trade
Finance vs all of the preceding but
Finance vs each of the preceding in a different way or effect.
Then you have the contradictions of
Production vs distribution vs consumption
The contradictions of different branches of the above departments.
Contradiction of energy production and energy consumption, which is complicated by energy beeing partly an ingredient, partly just adjuvant of exploitation.
And above all the contradiction between living working – power an all the other components of capital.
And in the end of it you have the contradiction between producers of weapons and all the other, because those weapons, if operated or not, are overall destructive to property and production, at least in form of discount.
So the utmost your 100 or 10 thousand men and woman can act corporatively by convening to compete freely. Freely and at best, if possible, at the expense of those who are not part of the “deal”. You name it: “Globalization”.
And because of the national sovereigns involved and the matter of competition denominated in currency, in state – debt, this is the commercial, euphemistic name of Imperialism.

Posted by: TomGard | Mar 23 2014 18:36 utc | 174

@164 radiator

boy, this “zionism” discussion is getting a but much, lately…

Uh, no. IMO, the subject of Zionism has been way too neglected everywhere, especially considering the gravity of our situation and the increasing threat that Zionism presents to the integrity of justice and our own freedoms in the West, and security in this day and age. Never mind the Palestinians; WE are at risk now. Our own rights are under fire here!
The start of Neoconism led by Kagan, Kristol, Wolfowitz, Feith and others (the majority, Zionists) was the start of the Zionization of America and subsequently the Zionization of other Western nations, the U.S., Canada and U.K being the most affected with Australia and others now catching up.
Of course it started quietly, sinuously working its way through the system trying not to attract too much attention. But ever since the exposé on the Lobby, we’re starting to discover just how rampant is Zionism’s influence and hold and how much control is exerted on the public’s perception and how it’s already started chiseling away at rights we used to take for granted.
We are so bombarded with propaganda now in the Zionist media that we’ve all turned to the internet because we no longer trust the media. But now, they’re after our rights and freedom here!
I read a saying the other day that went something like this: The Palestinians will never be free until America is freed. How true! But this problem isn’t only America’s any more.
Today I posted somewhere else a modified version of MLKs quote on justice: An injustice to someone anywhere is an injustice to us all everywhere. Because it’s so true, that if we allow that injustice to fester indefinitely, in particular, the injustice against Palestinians and ignore or smother the problem; eventually the rest of us will be subjected to a version of that injustice.
I’ll tell you something, every airport in the world is starting to ressemble Ben Gurion. When I travel now; I feel like I’m at an Israeli checkpoint; I can almost taste the abuse! I can only imagine the level of humiliation and pain Palestinians endure daily.
Our freedom of speech is also on the line; the internet is no longer a free speech zone; we are monitored; we are censored; we are bombarded with junk. When I research now, I feel like the results have been altered, like what may appear to be offensive events or fact has been relegated to back pages or altogether removed to pink wash or whitewash what is happening. It almost feels like the search engine is laundering information and spitting it out in the cleanest order. Is it my imagination? I don’t think so; I’ve been using the internet for quite some time and I’m noticing a change; something’s off now.
Our privacy is threatened more than ever. Our intuitive intellect is being smothered or ridiculed. Our financial system is dominated by individuals who not only are supporting a grave injustice, which I believe is supremacist imperialism emerging from Zionism, but they’re intent on creating a uniform system globally that is affecting the livelihoods of millions everywhere with a selfish supremacist intention in mind based on monopolization. This is as well as I can express it given my limited economic understanding; but I’m witnessing the results and I like everyone else is in the position to judge and criticize and stop this outrage.
The Federal Reserve has been run by a succession of Zionists, as is the IMF and the top 1%, well just look it up; it’s all there; it’s disheartening.
Honestly, wherever one looks, one sees a Zionist driving the system. What can I say, if they had honorable, decent, altruistic intentions; personally I might not give a shit; but I really don’t like where we’re heading; I really don’t like where they’re steering and I feel my rights and everyone’s rights are being threatened and diminished and I don’t want my country and the world heading down this destructive path.
When they started accusing Occupy of anti-Semitism it appeared like Zionism was trying to control the 99%’s right to protest, in order not to discover how really rampant Zionism is at the top 1%. I see it; everyone knows it, but we’re being muzzled and wrist tied with that pity card “anti-Semitism” that has turned into a whip against our rights instead of a means to protect people from hate crimes.
Maybe, you and those who want to shield Zionism try to deny what our eyes plainly recognize as a threat to our freedom! Do our eyes deceive us? You want us to stop seeing by telling us our lying eyes deceive us or we’re anti-Semites? Bullshit! Our eyes and our intuition don’t deceive us! And we won’t be robbed of our rights so that a supremacist ideology can exist, be legitimized and carry on with impunity permanently!
There is the chaff and the wheat here. The wheat see without denying their inner voice and the chaff are here to ridicule that voice and distract from the truth.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 23 2014 18:41 utc | 175

“There is the chaff and the wheat here. The wheat see without denying their inner voice and the chaff are here to ridicule that voice and distract from the truth.”
One half of my family were killed by your Nazi- predecessors who talked EXACTLY like this. So from now on I talk with the voice of a weapon to your kind.

Posted by: TomGard | Mar 23 2014 19:14 utc | 176

TomGard (176)
While I value some of your contributions here and find interesting pov in them, I perceive your last statement as thought-terminating cliche intended to basically enforce limits on the free speech and thoughts of others.
Not only do you not know if his predecessors actually were Nazis and even less, whether they killed your predecessors, but you introduce and try to enforce the illegitimate tool of kin liability.
I therefor strongly reject that part of your post.
Do not forget that millions of Germany were killed, too, and that, in fact, japan was the only country to ever be nuclear bombed. Yet for some reason those victims seem to be considered 2nd class victims.
I strongly urge you to return to rational and legitimate arguments.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 23 2014 19:28 utc | 177

@176 TomGuard
Quit using that excuse to impose your own version of Nazi supremacism!!
You’re pathetic!

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 23 2014 19:28 utc | 178

@TomGuard
Oh, and Mr. Pragma is right! I don’t have Nazi-predecessors! My predecessors are the kindest most humble, most hardworking and honorable people I’d ever wish to aspire to. So I’ll consider the attack you just posted as the most hateful type of Zionist hasbara SLANDER.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 23 2014 19:44 utc | 179

TomGuard
The the voice of a weapon, my ass! You mean the voice of A BULLY that wants to silence me permanently!

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 23 2014 19:49 utc | 180

“… that wants to silence me permanently!”
Nonsense. How could I identify you, then?
No, seriously, I hope I never will have to deal with your “argument”.

Posted by: TomGard | Mar 23 2014 20:09 utc | 181

The “zionism” discussion is no discussion at all, but a constant, percussive irritant. And with troll-like persistence it is being injected into nearly every post,(by the usual suspects) regardless of the intended subject on which b is writing. The language invented for this: zotpotatoes, zato, zeu, and the like, is the nomenclature of imbeciles. Putting the cart before the horse, it ingrains stupidity into the course of what otherwise might be a productive conversation. But there is no reason to accept the totalitarian language of these obsessives, any more than one should heed the growling of Faust’s poodle.

Posted by: Copeland | Mar 23 2014 20:10 utc | 182

Do not immerse yourselves TomGuard’s pseudo-intellectual hasbara strategic muddle that’s meant to lead you down the garden path of utter nonsensical distraction and defeat with no end in sight! He took Juan Moment’s comment and made a mockery of it with his convoluted, response meant to distract, befuddle and deceive.
But he couldn’t do that with my comment because it hit smack dab on the Zionist nerve, because my words that I never mince, because I don’t pussyfoot around with the truth, resonate as PREVAILING SENTIMENT, prevailing frustration, they hit such a universally familiar chord right now that he doesn’t even know where to begin attacking them, so he resorts to attacking ME! He knows he can’t dumbfound me in his usual hasbara strategic way, so he goes for the ad hom, he avails himself of an outrageous lie and slander to bully and threaten me into silence.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 23 2014 21:26 utc | 183

@182 Copeland
Well I see the hasbara reinforcements have arrived!

The “zionism” discussion is no discussion at all, but a constant, percussive irritant.
And expect it to get progressively more constant, progressively more irritating and percussive. This is but the beginning of Ravel’s bolero, my friend because we’re still at the beginning, it’s still a whisper, but it’s gonna turn into a ROAR. Zionism is going to be exposed for all it is, for the criminal supremacist, racist ideology that it is. It’s really to bad for your that it’s so fatally flaw and that it’s expiry date is already is view! You’re on the wrong side of history and I can’t wait til you eat your words. It’s coming!

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 23 2014 21:41 utc | 184

@182 and @184 –
kalithea, i tend to agree with copeland fwiw.. does every conversation have to turn into a discussion on zionism? as for mr. pragma’s creative use of the letter z, it is a bit inane on another level. i am willing to accept and agree with the fact it is a large issue and of concern, but that to bring it into every conversation seems redundant. while it is true the thread title makes for a natural fit here, but that is not the case with every thread. i think that is partly what copeland is getting at and i agree with them on this.

Posted by: james | Mar 23 2014 22:06 utc | 185

Wow, me impressed.
So, some people have no qualms about zusa wanton mass murdering thousands and thousands … but they are gravely irritated by someone adding a letter too often?!
Whenever I think the zionists have finally hit the bottom of the pit they somehow manage to pierce through to an ever deeper level.
But I’m a well minded man, so I make you an offer: As soon as zionists stop slaughtering innocent people I shall refrain from adding the of so harmful and evil letter ‘z’ to words, OK.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 23 2014 22:11 utc | 186

Tom G

No, seriously, I hope I never will have to deal with your “argument”.

I got bad news for you and your fellow legion of hasbarists: expect my argument, ie the truth about Zionism, to grow exponentially, and to get more constant and more persuasive and to go viral with millions more. You can’t stop this cause anymore; you can’t stop the truth from busting loose and becoming the pain in your ass it’ll be until it’s acknowledged.
Before Obama was first elected in 08, I was being censored and labelled an anti-Semite for referring to The Zionist Lobby as a den of spies and political browbeaters and hustlers for Zionism. And wo’ and behold, turns out they’ve ruined careers, and were being investigated by the FBI for espionage. Few dared type Aipac or Zionism in a negative context for fear of being banned. Now, we can justifiably attack these from every angle because they’re proving exactly what they are and many of us predicted they were.
We’ve come a long way, baby! And this is going all the way until Zionism goes down into the pages of historical INFAMY, and nothing less will suffice!
You can ridicule all you want, but I won’t rest and neither will the growing number, who believe as I do that Zionism is a threat to us all and not just to Palestinians!
james @185:
The Zionist connection redundant? Not a chance! What it is, is pivotal in getting to the heart of these foreign interventions.
Lest you forget, we’re usually discussing a consistent policy of foreign meddling: in Libya, Syria, Ukraine, possibly Russia and Iran next, each one practically rebounding off the other because Syria was the road to Iran and Russia, and Ukraine is to Russia what Syria is to Iran in this agenda; the proxies; it’s all connected and if you don’t get this; you’re dumber than I thought or pretending to be.
Russia doesn’t only have a port at stake in Syria, Russian companies are involved in gas and oil exploration off Syria’s coast, an area that Zionists want to hoard for themselves, and Russia was heavily involved in Libya and Iraq until the mess created in both which weakened Russian influence in both, although Russia’s trying to recover it, another reason Russia’s a thorn in Zionism’s side. And Ukraine is the strategy to get Russia mired in a problem on its own doorstep to take Russia’s focus off Syria, deprive it of Tartus, and again try to weaken its influence in the Middle East, and at the same time weaken Russia’s economy so that it will never be a competitive threat again in the Middle East! So you bet Zionism’s fingerprints are all over this! And the connections to Zionism go beyond what I’ve just stated which I’ve already outlined in other posts.
All these incursions even Ukraine are linked to ZIOCON foreign agenda; forget neocon forever; the term “Neocon” was always a red herring; a Zionist euphemism used to disguise how many Zionists are actually involved in the hegemonic operation.
So don’t give me that redundant crap. Neocons are ZIONISTS with an aggressive global initiative based on neutralization; and they’re driving this policy and you better believe I’m going to harp on that!

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 23 2014 23:55 utc | 187

lol, or is that zoz!

Posted by: james | Mar 23 2014 23:56 utc | 188

@184 kalithea
It’s easy to see the mental disturbance occurring in the writings of a polemicist, in the mindless overuse of a particular word in any given tract. It’s obvious kalithea, that an abundance of couple of these words, is not a question of style in your writing, but of obsession. First of all, this is a literate group, composed of a lot of longtime readers. Another thing is that your irresponsible use of “hasbara” is nothing but a smear against those who have a record here of opposing the outrages of Israeli governments, and their war crimes, about which you bark. This doesn’t make you look so good.
What you remind me of most, is an enforcer of party discipline, whose job it is to crack the whip, and to hand out censures, in other words, to excoriate and verbally abuse anyone who doesn’t keep to your dogma.
The issue of the injustices handed out to Palestinians has been focused upon by most of us here for a long time; but it is not courageous, or good of you, to fire polemic broadsides, or to dispense wantonly,
the charges of hasbara, upon anyone who hasn’t tipped over into your particular fantasies.

Posted by: Copeland | Mar 24 2014 0:43 utc | 189

I KNEW that I was way cooler than kalithea.
All you’ve reached so far, kalithea, is being called “enforcer of party discipline” and a little “excoriate and verbally abuse”.
You little sissy!
Look at me! I’m a democracy-loving right-wing software written by KGB on a rusty typewriter. Now THAT’s cool.
Btw. don’t they have any smart blabla agents in israel? I’m tired of getting victims rather than opponents. If they ever send two smart ones I’ll share with you and you may have one to rip apart. From what I see so far, don’t hold your breath though.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 24 2014 0:55 utc | 190

I don’t have time for those who seek to use the crimes committed against jews by europeans to excuse the crimes committed by israel against the indigenous people of the Jordan Valley, but I don’t believe that is what Tom G is doing. I supposed he was pointing out that having half yer family knocked off by assholes tends to focus the mind (there is a lesson in there for israelis but if they haven’t learned by now its unlikely they ever will).
Pragma et al may have confused predecessors with ancestors. Predecessor is not another word for ancestor; it is someone who precedes someone else in an office or title.
When I read Tom G’s post which alluded to kalithea’s predecessors I assumed that he was referring to the last mob of cheerleaders for judeophobia – the nazis.
At no stage did I consider Tom G had some sorta special insight into the mindset of kalithea’s primogenitors.
Those people who focus upon a persons race rather than the person’s actions are always gonna be susceptible to believing that others operate on the same basis.
I’m all for kicking alla the talk of antisemitism into touch as long as we can stick to considering people by what they say and do rather than what we believe their genetics to be.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Mar 24 2014 2:54 utc | 191

Occupy Wall Street was on the right track. People of the world need to rise up against the 1% banksters AND Zionism although they’re one and the same. These forces are driving the Ziocon imperial advance. If Occupy hadn’t dissolved because of winter; Zionists were ready to kill it because they were very worried that the Occupy Movement would eventually merge with the BDS movement against Zionism and gain momentum on a larger scale and this is exactly what was starting to happen. People are starting to feel like the Palestinians under Zionism; they’re starting to feel like their leaders are collaborators with Zionism like Abbas and the PA negotiating to screw their people. People are feeling like they no longer have a voice against the powerbrokers in Washington and on Wall Street. They’re feeling like they can’t trust the media, because it’s full of Ziocon propaganda. We are watched; we are listened to; we are monitored. We are now the OCCUPIED of Wall Street and Zionism.
There are all kinds of articles on the web written by Zionists condemning Occupy as anti-Semitic. Google Zionism and Occupy Wall Street. Why were Zionists so scared of Occupy? Because they know Wall Street is run by Zionists and everyone at Occupy knew saw this; that’s why they’re next target was The Lobby; and they were planning to occupy Aipac. Zionists realized that the Occupy movement getting closer and closer to the cause of Occupied Palestine. The Occupy Movement was starting to move against Zionism.
Zionism has no clothes and because we all see this FACT; they accuse us of anti-Semitism. Occupy Wall Street needs to mobilize again, and occupy not only Wall Street, but the Zionist Lobby as well as it planned to and join with the BDS movement, because if we don’t mobilize soon against Ziocon expansion we will become the empire of Orwellian slavery that this Zionist Kaplan dreams of. Maybe that’s Zionism’s PROMISED LAND.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 24 2014 3:14 utc | 192

“It isn’t merely incorrect to put the cart before the horse by blaming amerikan imperialism on the corrupt israeli regime, it is fucking dangerous and destructive – firstly because it causes too much time and energy be spent upon a mob of petty crims (yes they are psychopaths, but in comparison to the crimes of amerika, israeli leaders are petty crims), but most importantly because blaming ‘the jews’ for the world’s ills is so destructive to resistance against the asshole elites.”

Thank god finally some one other than myself said this, and in a much more eloquent way than I could ever do; because I am afraid what ‘mearsheimer and walt’ are doing is precisely that: “putting the cart before the horse” and the direct implication of that is “blaming ‘the jews’ for the world’s ills”.
Sadly this is an inevitable consequence that very often is neglected by decent progressive people, in a way that I some times feel being a part of a very small minority even on this site!

Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Mar 24 2014 3:20 utc | 193

@190 Mr. Pragma

If they ever send two smart ones I’ll share with you and you may have one to rip apart.

Aaaaah-haha! You have me in stiches – agaaaain! LOL! Never thought a rusty typewriter kgb program could be such a card! That was so funny; I laughed so hard I got tears! Thanks.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 24 2014 3:24 utc | 194

@191
I find your argument naive*, but I won’t argue it, except for the short paragraph below; and whether he meant predecessors as in people he thinks held my beliefs, or he meant ancestors – it’s still slanderous crap, because he doesn’t know me and I am not no Nazi-lover just as I’m no Zionist lover! What I am sick to death of is that bloody victim card and having it shoved in my face like so much shit, and hung over me like the sword of Damocles! I am not German and even if I were I wouldn’t be responsible for the crap Nazis pulled. That was then and this is now. I know what I see, I see Zionist supremacy, and I always call things as I see them and if he’s offended. Tough, scroll or get lost.
I don’t buy into exclusivity, exceptionalism or choseness bullshet of any kind and if that’s some genetic bias than too bad get off the f*cking chosen pedestal! I can’t stand monarchies either. And I really can’t stand people who don’t get the concept of universality.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 24 2014 3:48 utc | 195

Copeland
Spare me your hubris dump.
Anyone who defends Zionism by slandering me doesn’t care squat for the plight of Palestinians.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 24 2014 4:01 utc | 196

Oh well, predecessor, ancestor, whatever. I think everyone could understand what I was meaning.
Anyway TomGard can hardly know about kalitheas predecessors, ancestors, or whatever-cestors.
Debs is dead brought up an interesting point, which I’d like to extend.
Actually I remember quite well, what my first thought was when I for the first time didn’t simply brush off as “oh well, palestinians are terrorists anyway” (I should mention that I was a young man then, quite innocent or stupid, depending on ones pov) but actually began to understand what israelis did there.
It was “Hell no! If anyone on earth is to know how evil it is to terrorize others for being of this or that race or for believing in this that God, then it must certainly be the israelis!”
For while my anger grew and I began to despise jews. Until one day a patient elderly french jew explained it me. He showed me the smearings on their synagogue and explained “whenever israel commits cruelties the smearings here in at our cemetery increase in frequency and anger”.
That was my lesson about the jews and the israelis and about them not always being one and the same.
And although I had all I needed to understand more I still somehow didn’t arrive at the conclusion that there might be evil planning behind it. It took me again several years and a coincidence to understand that the “jewish” in “jewish state” (israel) might actually be a really evil disguise and a perfidious one at that.
Perfidious because israel willfully abused the negative image of “the jews” for which they were responsible in the first place. But perfidious also because israel greatly profits from anti-semitism, both real and grossly attributed anti-semitism because it perfectly fits israels “jews should come to israel to live there” credo.
kiev is just another case of that in a series of cases.
There is a lot more to tell but I will cut it at that point for the moment.
But although it took me long to pervade through that complex matter and often disguised by different layers and tricks, I made it a habit to tell zionists who tried the “half of my family was killed by nazis” plot to mute someone that may dare to create demands on history once they have proven to themselves have learned from the nazi time what is to be learned, namely that racial or religious based terror is cruel, inhumane, and utterly despicable. Someone supporting a regime that acts not that much different from what the nazis have been accused have simply no right to recur on that time, and even less to base demands on it, as long as their very fucking own actions prove that, if at all, they only learned to be the criminals themselves in the very crime they complain about.
As far as I’m concerned israel can burn and so can all its supporters.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 24 2014 4:10 utc | 197

@193

Thank god finally some one other than myself said this, and in a much more eloquent way than I could ever do; because I am afraid what ‘mearsheimer and walt’ are doing is precisely that: “putting the cart before the horse”

Arrrgh! I’ve landed in the den of Zionist inequity. You can cut the Zionist hubris with a knife here.
Liberal Zionists, “decent progressive people”, except when it comes to the Palestinians. Zionism must live on at their expense. I need some fresh air; the hypocrisy on this thread is unbearable.
I was so right about this thread separating the chaff from the wheat. Good, next time you write your duplicitous liberal bullshit; I’ll recognize it for what it is.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 24 2014 4:12 utc | 198

Kalithea;
What you guys don’t understand, is that “zionism” is the manifestation of the global Western imperialism in middle east. It is nothing more. Is it ugly? Yes! Is it criminal? Yes! Is it responsible for all the crimes in the world? NO! Was zionism responsible for the coup of 1953 in Iran? NO! Who was behind it? The Western imperialism! Was zionism behind the coup in Guatemala in 1954? NO! Who was behind it? The Western imperialism! Was zionism responsible for the coup against Sukarno? NO!
Was Zionism responsible for the vietnam war? NO! Who was responsible it? The Western imperialism! Was zionism behind the coup against Allende? NO! Who was behind it? The Western imperialism!
IN FACT: Was zionism behind zionism? NO! It was the Western imperialism and its ambitions to hegemonize the world energy resources which was behind Zionism to begin with (Balfour declaration)!
Israel’s birth predates 1948! Its real birth was in 1938 when *BRITISH IMPERIALISM* massacred Palestinians and suppressed the Arab revolt!
Zionism is the manifestation of the Western imperialism *in middle east* and not the other way around!

Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Mar 24 2014 4:36 utc | 199

Correction to my previous post:

“Its real birth was in 1938 when”

1938 should be 1939.

Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Mar 24 2014 4:39 utc | 200