Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 24, 2014

Fascist Ukrainian Defense Minister's War Orders Defied

The fascist new defense minister of Ukraine ordered to start a war but was disobeyed. He says that is "regrettable."

Not found this in any English language news yet but several German media reports mention this (my translation from FAZ) :

Meanwhile it became clear that the commanders of Ukrainian warships on the Crimea defied orders from the provisional government in Kiev to use their arms. The Ukrainian minister of defense Ihor Tenyukh said on Sunday in Kiev, Russia managed "despite orders to all commanders to use weapons" to take over the ships. "Regrettably" the commanders decided themselves on how to proceed, he said.

Tenyugh is a member of the fascist Svoboda party that took part in the February 21 coup against the legitimate Ukrainian government. His legally dubious order to shoot at Russian troops in a rather hopeless situation could have easily started a larger war.

My deep gratitude to all those Ukrainian commanders who defied the lunatic order to start a hot war with Russia and allowed a peaceful handover of their equipment to Russian forces.

Posted by b on March 24, 2014 at 10:14 UTC | Permalink

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Sergey #90

I'm not totally sure. I think it's partly the way I was raised: I knew the evils of slavery and white supremacy before I even started school and always wondered bc to me, we kids had different skin colors just like we did eyes or hair. So it never made any sense to me, and the looks of hatred and rage on the faces of the grown-ups fighting desegration, well, I still can't forget them. So learning the truth about how we ethnically-cleansed our country's rightful owners, plus Japanese internment in WWII, Hiroshima/Nagasaki, Arbenz, Mossadegh, the histories of various other groups fighting for the freedom to just live on their land and worship as they pleased, made it all that much more important to me. Then Viet Nam (which is how we spelled it back in the day). I will say that I deeply believed in the words of our founding documents, despite knowing quite clearly the utter hypocrisy of those who wrote them. And I think those words have meant something to a lot of people everywhere, even if they're most honored in the breach here where they were written.

I'm an old woman and I've rambled -- have I actually answered your question?

Posted by: Nora | Mar 24 2014 22:29 utc | 101


I know, I know, but frankly I see Germany less culpable in all that simply for the fact that Germany is but a zus colony. In the end Germany has to obey and do zusas bidding.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 24 2014 22:31 utc | 102

@100 Well technically Assad IS a dictator, but he is one with popular support. And hes hardly evil (at least compared to other national leaders): Defending ones nation from Jihadi's is hardly my definition of evil, or anyone elses if they would be honest to themselves about it.

Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 24 2014 22:32 utc | 103


Mr P.
> As far as I'm concerned you are right, I - in those discussion here - look at our planet like a game board. For the simple reason that it *is* exactly that for zio controlled zusa and zeu. When analysing and interpreting situations, particularly ones with a certain mil. potential, I have, of course, to look strategically.

All right, no questions here.
Just don't play too enthusiastic here please. I'll be the last one to notice btw.

Posted by: Sergey | Mar 24 2014 22:33 utc | 104

@101 I dont think you did answer his question but I would like to thank you personally for sharing it.

Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 24 2014 22:33 utc | 105

@85, Nora...

It's been my observation that there are many factors at play. Here are a few:

1) Television - it hypnotizes and also fragments the attention span.
2) Fetal Alcohol Syndrome - I'd swear that many of the more aggressive people I've encountered are that way because FAS has damaged their brains (quite tragic, as this is not a self-inflicted injury).
3) Cultural indoctrination - lots of pressure when you're young to 'not be too smart' - kids make fun of you if you're a braniac/nerd/good student (this one almost got me, too)

Posted by: Dr. Wellington Yueh | Mar 24 2014 22:35 utc | 106

cant resist this: 'Tymoshenko's party "Batkivshchyna" (or Fatherland)' "Batkivshchyna" = Bat Shit Crazy!

Yulia Tymoshenko wants to nuke 8 million Russians in the Ukraine

As I have mentioned before, Tymoshenko really appears to have suffered a great deal in Yanukovich's dungeon and now she is clearly "gone fishing". The latest telephone leak (thanks SVR, and keep up the great work!) shows her actually suggesting that the Banderites *nuke* the 8 million Russians living in the Ukraine. She also proposes to make Russia a scorched field. Let me immediately reassure everybody - the Ukraine does not have nuclear weapons, never had them, never will have them. You can take that to the bank. To Tymoshenko's partial exculpation, she is clearly venting in a fit of frustrated rage and not actually giving orders to a (non existing) Ukrainian military. Still, this is a very good illustration of how all these freedom loving, smiling, Ukrainian nationalists really think. Keep in mind that Tymoshenko's party "Batkivshchyna" (or Fatherland) is by far the most "moderate" (to the extend that any of these Banderites can be considered moderate) and that Klichko's Udar party is worse, that Tiagnibok's Freedom Party (aka "Social Nationalist" party) is even worse, and that they all are comparatively sane and moderate when compared to Iarosh's "Right Sektor" who can only be compared to the Croatian Ustashe or the Hutu Interahamwe. And its the Right Sektor which currently has all the guns (only small stuff, thanks God, stuff that is only useful to terrorize civilians, not something you could use against the "Polite Armed Men in Green").

Posted by: brian | Mar 24 2014 22:40 utc | 107

Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 24, 2014 6:32:00 PM | 103
technically ALL political leaders are dictators, as none rule by the will of the people the crimean referendum showed us,, the US and EU and canadian elites etc all despise real democracy

Posted by: brian | Mar 24 2014 22:42 utc | 108

because this amuses me a little I'd like to serve your curiosity.

Your style - well, to speak about it touches the limits of what I can express in english. I heard it dozens of times though I've never been in the States, in TV-soap - dialogs. This melange of old-maidish and kittenish performed with a slighly "british" intonation, affectionate in a formal and remote way, but then changing to "down to earth" expression with a governness- touch, even going as far as "bathos", expressively false pathos saying: "But I AM sexual, NOT bluestocking."
There were nor few german woman who adopted those charakters they got so used to by watching "Denver", "Dallas" and later shows I dont know.
I doubt that any halfway reasonable woman would adopt such a thick - plastered character style in self-portrayal, but I can't tell - never been in the States, as I said.

Then I hit the ceiling when Kalithea invoked what the Nazi's called "gesundes Volksempfinden" and Pragma rushed to intervene. Here is what he wrote:


While I value some of your contributions here and find interesting pov in them, I perceive your last statement as thought-terminating cliche intended to basically enforce limits on the free speech and thoughts of others.

Not only do you not know if his predecessors actually were Nazis and even less, whether they killed your predecessors, but you introduce and try to enforce the illegitimate tool of kin liability.

I therefor strongly reject that part of your post.

Do not forget that millions of Germany were killed, too, and that, in fact, japan was the only country to ever be nuclear bombed. Yet for some reason those victims seem to be considered 2nd class victims.

I strongly urge you to return to rational and legitimate arguments.

This is governess Nora speakin with british accent - the way Ashton gave up, but you hear sometimes remainders of it.
Seems Pragma forgot to change personality.
That made me avare and I checked some "conversations" between you two (I normally did'nt read Pragma). TV-Soap-stuff, C-quality.
So I came to think, you are a real person but also a character Mr. P uses if it seems convenient to him.

Be it or not, you both follow a clear desinformation and distraction agenda leaving the dirty work to the poor dumb creatures who hang on to your lips - thats the clue.

Posted by: TomGard | Mar 24 2014 22:45 utc | 109



> have I actually answered your question?
1st of all thanks a lot for your answer. I guess now I never really talked to American older than 25 in RL (except for "just business").

Not sure if I have any more questions right now, just feel too bad we don't see lots of Americans like you outside.

As for your "zero-sum" answer - I'm still trying to recall the game theory and fiercely reading the net:-)

Posted by: Sergey | Mar 24 2014 22:46 utc | 110

a new MEME for states sicki of the US/EU axis of evil: 'Please Putin: occupy us!'

Posted by: brian | Mar 24 2014 22:48 utc | 111

#105 Massinissa

You're welcome. I'm still having a rough time answering that question!

#106 Dr. Wellington Yueh

Yes. Also the concerted effort (Google Howard Ahmanson; he's a peach) to infiltrate the mainline churches, and the exponential growth of the fundie megachurches, which imo are actually heresy and not Christian at all. And also, due to almost all of us having come from elsewhere and adopted a whole new identity as amalgams, we've only had our own mythology and very little taught us about anyone else anywhere. So, no sense of history, and certainly NO history going back very long even here. Sure, an Irish-American might know Irish history, but Germany? France? And that's just Europe -- nothing whatever about anywhere else. What the average American might have been taught about Russia = Communism, Double-Plus-Bad, period. And don't kid yourself, Mr/Mrs. Average American *might* know the Cold War is over but they still don't know Russia is no longer Communist, or the USSR.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 24 2014 22:57 utc | 112

Francis Fukuyama famously said history had come to an end....he never imagined President Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin would kickstart it back into life!

History is back! Historians releaved!

Posted by: brian | Mar 24 2014 22:57 utc | 113

speaking of soap opera's.. it would be nice if the drama queens and kings here took a break for those of us who interested in political commentary as opposed to soap operas.

Posted by: james | Mar 24 2014 22:58 utc | 114


Thanks a lost for your answer, but I was really looking for the pattern. Clearly, 1-2-3 answers I may get here are not enough to form any pattern but I do like to hear the thoughts. In fact, I'm not even sure which pattern I'm looking for - like critical thinking or something else - but I do want to hear the data.

Also, as for @22
> About the Yulia video, im assuming this is a forgery. She doesnt seem stupid enough to be joking about nuking half her own country.
I think it's lost in translation. She speaks Russian (why?) and it does sound like an emotional adverb. Well, actually it sounds like she didn't finish the college and "nuke" for here is more like a "kill at once".

Posted by: Sergey | Mar 24 2014 23:04 utc | 115

sergey what i meant was there are neo nazis in russia, that are not unlike pragma, that they are as powerful as they are is an insult to the memories of so many people

the neo nazis ought to be dealt with the same way rokossovski dealt with them - send them to valhalla

let me be frank pragma knows nothin about geostrategy because he's got his dick always in the same country, he knows nothing of history which is apparent again & again & anyone who is fooled at his pretensions need only read a post by debs is dead to know what historical understanding or empirical evidence is

pragma, you & your nazi pals defile this site. point

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 24 2014 23:07 utc | 116

i wish pragma & his pals would simply go & zuck themselves

you are a fucking fool

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 24 2014 23:10 utc | 117

Sergey #115

YES to critical thinking!!! Although that's now a pretty big deal and school districts everywhere are supposedly implementing it, most of the implementers haven't a clue what it really is or involves. Hate to bring up myself again but my father always encouraged it, as long as I could back up whatever I said with facts/data/evidence, and I was fortunate to have a superb secondary and academic education where again it was always encouraged. But the average American doesn't really *think* at all: they just spit out 3-5 word pre-formed phrases from their guru or media figure of choice and don't really know the deeper meaning of them. It's indoctrination, not education, starts early and goes right on up, especially in business schools, to the advanced degrees.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 24 2014 23:10 utc | 118

I am not sure rememberringgip is rememberingiap...

Posted by: Nora | Mar 24 2014 23:12 utc | 119

as an australian, i recognise the Krimean peoples referendum as legitimate and the Coup regmie in kiev as illegitimate and paint a tiiny red dot in the south east corner of Oz

Posted by: brian | Mar 24 2014 23:12 utc | 120

Dear Yats
Love the work youve done rescuing Ukraine from the vile embrace of Putin
Only a suggestion, please get rid of the nazi symbol: makes it easier for us to sell your cause
thanks and i high regards
European Union/United States

Posted by: brian | Mar 24 2014 23:17 utc | 121

I wonder why r'giap, tom gard, and other zio-assets don't open a "wishing and dreaming" club. Or maybe a "send those evil nazis to valhala - we are the *good* nazis, we kill for the *right* reasons!" club.

Oh, clumsy me. That club already exists. It's called svoboda. And evil Putin disrupted their attempt to make whole ukraine a svoboda club.

Thanks for your confession.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 24 2014 23:18 utc | 122


> sergey what i meant was there are neo nazis in russia, that are not unlike pragma, that they are as powerful as they are is an insult to the memories of so many people

Ok I see your point now. I would not actually put a lot of attention to "neonazi" in Russia. Let me comment in details:

1) It does exist. One must note however that 95+% in those "parties" or "movements" or whatever you call it are younger than 25. I admit I was the one really thinking about joining one. I was 18.

2) As for younger part, they exist [very historically] due to the country humiliation & economical collapse in 90s. NATO attack on Serbia + financial crisis in 1998 made their number tenfold. Most of them just skip their fierce thinking as becoming adults.

3) As for older part, they're indeed the same as in the Ukraine - they believe "Russia may not form w/out aggressive nationalism & assimilation". Unlike Ukraine, there's also another way - to embrace somewhat more gentle transition. That's one of the reason Russian current government avoids to refuse the past. I think they already succeeded.

Posted by: Sergey | Mar 24 2014 23:21 utc | 123

interesting analysis: Google trans:

Kiev Maidan could move to Yerevan .

As expected IA REX, after the reunification of the Crimea with Russia " vibrated " Transcaucasia , extremely sensitive , both global and regional balance of political forces. In Tbilisi, Baku and Yerevan , " with bated breath " waiting for the outcome of the operation "Ukraine" , knowing that , regardless of the outcome, it is not only about the geopolitical changes of tectonic nature , but also the possibilities of the U.S. and its partners to implement its post-Soviet space former policy . Therefore, we decided to initially focus on some contour features events in the Ukraine, the Caucasus countries because they can become a "political tool ."

Once in Kiev began " Maidanskaya revolution" , many thought that Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych , has refused to sign an association agreement with the EU , the West - for the edification of others - want " public political spanking " , exploiting and stimulating accumulated in society and social political discontent " oligarchy ." But the West , like Gogol's noncommissioned officer's widow , " whipped himself " as the Maidan in Kiev there was a deviation from the classical scenario "color revolution ." Everything had to go a different way: in 2015, Ukraine had a presidential election , the results of which you can declare a " rigged " , which could be a cause for mass protests . Ready for it by various movements , foundations and networks. However, the writers decided to use the fact of the Winter Olympics in Sochi , believing that the Russian leadership will be constrained in their possible counteractions , late in the decision-making or "After all the brakes ."

But Ukrainian President Yanukovych showed unexpected flexibility. February 21 signing an agreement with opposition forces , with the participation of the foreign ministers of France , Germany and Poland , he agreed to a coalition government , offering his head Arseniy Yatsenyuk , including in the category "moderate nationalists" and early presidential elections - in December. Up to this point the "revolutionary process " in Ukraine developed in the format of legitimacy. However, Ukrainian radical nationalists , fearing a compromise solution between Yanukovych and " moderate nationalists " behind them , went on seizing the initiative , aiming at providing the physical destruction of Yanukovych. Later on he himself said in Rostov -on-Don at the press conference . But be that as it may , his temporary "disappearance" of the political field in Ukraine further action infuriated the opposition and radical maydanovtsev beyond the law. It is reminiscent of an episode of Russian history, when Tsar Ivan the Terrible , introducing Oprichnina fled to Alexander suburb , where a deputation waited Moscow boyars . But Ukrainian " boyars " not resist the temptation to declare " Hetman Yanukovych overthrown " and formed his government .

Are Western developers expect script " Ukrainian shocks" , and especially the U.S. , this turn of events is difficult to say . But the fact is that the current government in this country is illegitimate , as well as all of its subsequent decisions . When the Verkhovna Rada passed a law depriving the Russian language the status of regional , Ukraine, and in particular in the Crimea, where the vast majority of the population is Russian , began irreversible processes that resulted in the return of the Crimea to Russia . As he wrote in this connection, one European analyst , " in the United States , few thought the situation when the heat kindled on Independence revolutionary fire warms only the Kremlin ." And not only that . Now the Kremlin makes the U.S. and its Western partners by " pull the chestnuts " of this fire .

In Ukraine, there is such a disposition : the legitimate president Yanukovych illegitimate Kiev government, which does not recognize Moscow, acute social and economic crisis , the Maidan is " Right sector ", which has already declared its readiness to overthrow the government Yatsenuk . West continues a policy of political bluff. On the sidelines of an EU summit in Brussels Yatsenyuk signed with EU leaders Herman Van Rompuy and Jose Manuel Barroso agreement on political association , which, incidentally , is said about the coordination of defense policy. At the same time, Foreign Minister of Italy 's Federica Mogerini said that " Ukraine should join NATO, " and should be limited to " strong partnership NATO ." The press center of NATO also reported that the alliance "does not intend to send troops to protect Ukraine ," because " the current crisis should find a peaceful political solution , including the one to go for a direct dialogue with the authorities of Ukraine." In short , Ukraine abandoned.

Now many European experts believe that without Russia's participation to resolve the crisis would be extremely difficult , especially in a situation where the EU has gone on expanding sanctions against it . But what ? According to the BBC, " it's not the sanctions that could seriously affect the Russian economy ," it is "symbolic selectively directed sanctions scheme which did not clear ." As for the independent actions of Brussels , then , as suggested by the head of the Ukrainian edition of DW Bernd Johann , " right-wing politicians who are still in the Government , it is necessary to remove from power ," that " is only possible in the elections " , unless of course - we would add - these forces staged another coup. So what lies ahead in this country has a lot of political upheaval . Ukrainian "party" has just begun.

Such a relatively detailed analysis of the situation in Ukraine due to the fact that the subjects of the crisis in the country could be repeated in other post-Soviet countries , especially in the Caucasus , which already gained "experience" in the conduct of "color revolutions" . At the same time draw attention to some important nuances . So , NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen , speaking about the strategic perspective block " after the Crimea" , said that at the upcoming September in Wales summit of foreign ministers of NATO countries ' need to move forward and reflect the progress that has been made , at least in some candidate countries ", but in Transcaucasia referring only Georgia . So for the foreseeable future from the scope of the global interests of NATO , Armenia falls - for obvious reasons, because it is a member OBKB - and Azerbaydzhan.Sluchayno it?

Armenia made ​​a corresponding statement in the Crimea , sparking criticism from the U.S. Ambassador to Armenia John Heffern . But shortly before the referendum in the Crimea, the U.S. State Department issued a report on human rights in the world, in which , inter alia, stated that " with the support of the Armenian separatists continue to control most of the Nagorno- Karabakh and seven other Azerbaijani territories." It is no coincidence that another U.S. ambassador - Azerbaijan - Richard Morningstar said : " The situation in Ukraine with a new intensity raises the question of the need to resolve the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict."

Decisions on what platform , if the experience of Crimea showed that Moscow, as one of the co-chairs of the OSCE Minsk Group on Karabakh conflict , now in solving problems of self-determination and territorial integrity became the guide proposed by the United States to determine the principles of the independent status of Kosovo?

But this is not the only intrigue created in this direction. So after the reunification of the Crimea with Russia , and after a known reaction to this action of President Serzh Sargsyan , speaking in Brussels , Prime Minister Tigran Sargsyan made ​​a surprise announcement . According to him , the signing of the political part of the Association Agreement with the EU - the best way to Armenia. That is, despite the membership in the CSTO , the Prime Minister of Armenia intends to Kiev with illegitimate and still be in the area of European defense policy coordination . Why , it is well known what the results in Ukraine led policy of " double standards" of President Viktor Yanukovych ?

Perhaps this is due to the fact that in Armenia became determined the political forces that the alliance with the West as a "punishment" Armenian President Sargsyan for pro-Russian course , there are going to implement another "color revolution" ?

If so , the course of further developments in Armenia is calculated easily . In the center of Yerevan will be arranged " Kiev Maidan " when authorities act against pro-Western residents of the capital . They , of course, will be fair to criticize the authorities for the unresolved problems that have accumulated , for cronyism , corruption , etc. But behind them will stand , as in Kiev, nationalist forces , what Armenia has . In this situation , Moscow to deprive Azerbaijan temptation to solve the Karabakh issue by force - which in practice will lead to another Armenian massacres - of course, at the initiative of Stepanakert recognize Karabakh's independence , which in that situation would be just to go nowhere .

It is no accident the other day , President Ilham Aliyev said with such certainty that " Azerbaijan will restore its territorial integrity," although did virtually no step guidance for "bridges" with Stepanakert . Then, to Karabakh is not got nationalists Baku or Yerevan , of course, with the consent of the authorities in Stepanakert , is the procedure for the return of Karabakh to Russia . And also because the Karabakh Armenians will have nowhere to go . That is, as in Abkhazia, South Ossetia , in the Crimea, and in Karabakh Moscow will act as a liberator or guarantor save nations and ethnic groups , for various reasons, find themselves in danger.

So objectively Caucasian nationalists , like their Ukrainian colleagues , strengthen the position of Russia in the former Soviet space. As for the West, for its policy of military and political bluff in this region comes to an end . All repeats. In the early 1920s, it was Europe , concluded a secret agreement with Moscow Bolsheviks , ensure the preservation of its primarily economic interests in the region, " passed " Baku , Yerevan and Tbilisi.

Posted by: brian | Mar 24 2014 23:26 utc | 124



@But the average American doesn't really *think* at all: they just spit out 3-5 word pre-formed phrases from their guru or media figure of choice and don't really know the deeper meaning of them.

You do know this is not an American feature. You may see this in any country. American feature is to *believe utmost against any facts* when their "educated" opinion is argued [not in the way they have been educated].

"He is impossible to defeat 'coz he never admits the defeat". Not mine, don't remember the source.

Posted by: Sergey | Mar 24 2014 23:29 utc | 125

Sergey @90 and @115

I doubt if my story is helpful in establishing a pattern, but I've just been an individual who's cared to make an active effort to honestly understand the home cultures of people I get to know (and it helps that many are women). Part of that is also because I live in a university town, so I meet people from everywhere. I had something of a world citizen moment when the Gruzia thing happened in 2008, because I'd made many friends in Russia before then, and I was dismayed when our media took a whole month to acknowledge the truth of who attacked first in South Ossetia (and by the time the OSCE report came out, it was as a footnote, nowhere near the headlines).

Posted by: Jon Lester | Mar 24 2014 23:30 utc | 126


Thanks for your answer.

> and it helps that many are women
Not sure what you mean. Esp if those women came from Eastern Europe. Society there (here) is traditional so what it means is that you might have heard the opinion of their parents. Mb it's better in understanding their home cultures btw. My wife is the same.

Posted by: Sergey | Mar 24 2014 23:40 utc | 127

This is the most touching and realistic information I have found on what is actually going on in Ukraine. Devoid of politics and strikes me as purely representative of what the average Ukrainian is going through. Please read.

Posted by: b4real | Mar 24 2014 23:46 utc | 128

Posted by: Sergey | Mar 24, 2014 7:04:11 PM | 115

"> About the Yulia video, im assuming this is a forgery. She doesnt seem stupid enough to be joking about nuking half her own country."

Nah, it's real.

Tymoshenko claims some of it was edited, but confirms the phone conversation took place. Shufrych, on the hand, denies the whole thing even took place. It looks like the crooks were not expecting this bit of evidence to surface, panicked and failed to co-ordinate their alibis. Time to grab guns and kill damn Russians – Tymoshenko in leaked tape

Posted by: scalawag | Mar 24 2014 23:50 utc | 129

sergey thanks for that - i know russia very weel but not so recently in great detail so your interpretation of those momvements helpful to me

i am who i am nora - i love this blog & love what b does - & in the georgia situation, he was right on - the first fay, isolated & everything he wrote was ahead of the world of the so called experts by a country mile

i essentially see what copeland outraged & others see - each thread being buggered by the same subject & without any serious & thorough analysis & he seems to attract the worst

i am prepare to be wrong but in this case i know i am not

i have been here since the beginning, but have not been active obviously for some time & i feel ashamed of wht pragma & some others have turned it into

b & i do not agree on some things but it is always thorough, pragma just leaves me feeling soiled by his nonsense 'work shy jews, really for fucks's sake

sergeyy can tell you in detail how the vor came into being, how different ethnic groups formed underground societies - the history is murderous but is telling

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 24 2014 23:54 utc | 130

@129 Scalawag, that part that you quoted from Sergey was actually him quoting me much earlier.

And yeah im pretty sure its real now.

Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 25 2014 0:00 utc | 131

@130 as Pragma has told you time and time again Giap, HE DOESNT HAVE ANYTHING AGAINST JEWS.

Judaism = Religion

Zionism = Political ideology

Hes not an antisemite, good god.

Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 25 2014 0:01 utc | 132

excellent! a lesson to the US appendix
MORE: Russia imposes retaliatory sanctions against 13 high-ranking Canadian officials, lawmakers & public activists

Posted by: brian | Mar 25 2014 0:06 utc | 133

r'giap, I have always respected your words, and it is nice to see you here more often. But I have to admit I've been surprised you've personally attacked Mr. Pragma and kalithea for what I take as the strong way they make their points. It feels like you're trying to silence them simply because you disagree with them, whereas we've had a rash lately of people working hard, and at great length, to attack this blog and totally derail any discussion and they're the ones, imo, who are truly objectionable. In any case, I wish you well, but please know that, as far as I'm concerned, if I'm going to criticize my fellow citizens and my country's policies as I see fit, I'll be darned if I'm going to pull my punches when talking about anyone or anywhere else.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 25 2014 0:06 utc | 134

Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 24, 2014 8:00:10 PM | 131

"@129 Scalawag, that part that you quoted from Sergey was actually him quoting me much earlier."

Thanks for correcting that. Sorry about the confusion.

Posted by: scalawag | Mar 25 2014 0:07 utc | 135

Sergey @127

About the women, it's just because I like them smart and well-educated, among other qualities. Your part of the world is very rich in human resources, and your schools get real results for a fraction of the cost of our failing administrative behemoths.

Posted by: Jon Lester | Mar 25 2014 0:14 utc | 136


I actually was close to leaving some days ago. As it so happened there were quite many asking me to stay and/or telling me that they like to read what I have to say.

You are of course free to dream up another "reality" in which I'm not welcome here and in which I write evil things about jews. What you can not do, however, is making un-written or un-existing, for instance, my very clear statements to the effect of *not* condemning or harming jews.

You are blabbering so much about the value of b's work - to which I agree - and how much it means to you but at the same time it is YOU who constantly disrupts pretty every thread here with posts very many of which are but personal attacks, uttering of a drunk (not to insult you; it just looks like that to me), relentless tirades, and absurd accusations against myself and some others here.

I said it before: you were free to attack what I said - but - you chose to attack me, the person.

How could that be good and constructive for MoA or at least helpful for b? Frankly, it rather seems that you are simply incapable and unwilling to tolerate other views and opinions, and therefore launch poop cannonades against those whom you don't like, going even so far as to openly propagate fascist dirt à la "sending them to valhalla", vulgo, killing them.

If MoA *really* means anything to you then you'll stop your relentless personal hate crusades. If b's work *really* means anything to you, then you'll find better ways to honour it and to contribute than relentlessly spitting dirt and hatred.

If, however, you are not capable or too drunk to tolerate other views then the best you have to offer to MoA might actually be to leave for a while.
I personally would prefer to see you staying and capable of contributing in a fertile way like formertimes (or like the man whose name you stole).

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 25 2014 0:15 utc | 137

nora, it was he who said workshy jews, i have studied what he wrote & again feel copeland's theory is confirmed - that it is not a person

& as i said too nora, we have seen the blog attacked when it is most pertinent

& i am bored shitless with everything turning on the jews, their history in the proressive movement is a matter of public record, zionism is a corrupt ideology & the state of israel is a puppet state , it obviously affects middle eastern policies but i will repeat what i said the other day, it is not as important as indonesia for example especially with the pacific pivot which will become more & more important because weall know the long war is with china but hopefully the empire is so fucked up it will not be even remotelu capable

but it risk to create many libyas & it is clear the empire prefers it, ikraine will become like libya too

& you are correct that the europeans at the eu level comport themselves so horrifically, no honor, no principle except saving their skins

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25 2014 0:18 utc | 138

magma & kalithea

i don't believe you
it is as simple as that

look if b finds my interventions destructive he will edit them

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25 2014 0:21 utc | 139

Funny. "I don't believe and so I invent bullshit that I attribute to you to then attack you for it."

It seems a ukrainian nazi group has stolen the name r'giap.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 25 2014 0:26 utc | 140

From "Fascim" to "Antisemitism", good Lord, I think this
topic is done. A big thanks for the "batshitcrazy"party and
other stuff from brian and #106 dr wellington's "FAS".
gracias MoAlabamas!

Posted by: slirs | Mar 25 2014 0:27 utc | 141

r'giap, I think one of the problems is the taboo in some people's minds against ever saying anything critical about anyone Jewish. Criticism is not automatically anti-Semitism, sometimes it's just simply criticism -- and criticizing Israel and its supporters is no different than criticizing Iceland, or the Incas if we're going to speak about people who were damned near wiped out and *didn't* rise again out of the ashes to international success in record time. (I say that with infinite respect, btw; it's really incredible, given the maybe-not-well-documented-but-still-all-too-real horrors of the Holocaust.)

But the point is that, just because so many suffered, does not mean that the entire group automatically is sacrosanct. Spittle-flecked hate is different, it's obvious when somebody crosses over into that and it's just simply always wrong. But pointing out that someone who did something reprehensible is Jewish is not the same thing. And if it's a group of Jews, well then, it's a group of Jews. So what? It's a group of Jews. And it would be nice to be able to say it and not get the hall monitors all riled up and making ridiculous ad hominem attacks -- but never, btw, arguing with facts, data or evidence, just vitriol.

Bottom line, I'm sick of it too. Let's just be able to say what we want and let others do likewise!

Posted by: Nora | Mar 25 2014 0:40 utc | 142

r'giap, one more thing. If you don't believe kalithea, please read Alison Weir, she's citing well-established, irrefutable facts that may change your mind some:

Also, this book is very interesting: Israel Shahak, Jewish History, Jewish Religion, it's available online too. And finally, he co-wrote another book, Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel, which really is mind-blowing, with Norton Mezvinsky, uncle-in-law of Chelsea Clinton and a true expert on Christian Zionism in this country.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 25 2014 0:45 utc | 143

but nora they are no different than indonesians & finally less important in the long war with china

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25 2014 0:48 utc | 144



>> sergeyy can tell you in detail how the vor came into being, how different ethnic groups formed underground societies - the history is murderous but is telling

I'd be glad to reply anyhow but unfortunately understanding what you mean is beyond my English -(.

// Btw the Timoshenko's talk about the nukes is translated right now on Russian TV. As always, later than @ MOA.

Posted by: Sergey | Mar 25 2014 0:55 utc | 145


Wait so people only matter if it effects China?

Explain that logic to me please?

Does that mean 90% of the world 'doesnt matter' because they arnt involved in any forthcoming US-China conflict?

That sounds pretty stupid to me.

Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 25 2014 0:59 utc | 146

r'giap, Indonesia is beginning to matter, but they matter right now. Read that CounterPunch piece.

It would be nice not to talk about them so much though. They're having an impact, it would be nice to discuss it freely, *and then go on from there!*

Posted by: Nora | Mar 25 2014 1:00 utc | 147

there is film being done on my work & during the investigtive work they found out my father was the son of jewish immigrants from the settlement of the pale who came to the east end in the late 19th century, they were bundists & yes i feel a connection with that history -

i have just had a book published of a poem written for furkan dogan & i work on the nakbah & the shoah because i honor that history

but i have been relentless in my attack on the state of israel, because its illegality has increased exponentially - it does not represent jewish people & i will continue to attack it

but anything that even comes close to the conspiracy theories i will reject & reject biolentyly because it is stupid & it masks who the real enemy is & that enemy is u s imperialism, not transnationals, who in any case are centred in those united states, & whose armed forces are the bodyguard of capital

but alos we have in the last two decades, have two thinhs happening, the empire is openly lawless, with it intensifying its violence with each month & the other factor is that we have the beginning of a dream, still fragile, in latin america

whatever dignity europe had is lost, they had the means of creating a pole, for that mutipolarity but no they are as servile as britain has always been & this has brough on a new level of savagery

finally in this sombre time we witness the enormous damage cultural colonisation has done to people, cultures & country, when the empire did what it did in iraq, it was a turning point - ad the insurgents said the doors of hell were opening, & that is what i witness, not in the metaphysical sense but in the quality of lives, the empire has extended the circles after circles of thos it considers 'lives unworthy of living" - the people have to learn to fight or be extinguished

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25 2014 1:01 utc | 148

A few thoughts on the post world war 2 altered circumstances and underlying continuity in the United States, prompted by Sergey's astute missives, and others.

When I was a child in the fifties here in Canada, it was commonplace to hear the United States described as the 'best' country in the world, and Canada somehow usually snuck into 2nd place: the ranking seemed to have something to do with our inferior per capita income. The US was an un-bombed industrial and military colossus; and portrayed as (and in fact was, in comparison to war torn world) a 'beacon of freedom and opportunity'. It produced vastly more food than it could consume, and everybody had cars, and unlike much of the planet there was plenty of toilet paper. Etc.

Then something happened. Kennedy took on Wall Street (see Professor Don Gibson's recent published book) and attempted to initiate a new hopeful era of progress and peace and decency and got blown away. The entire political,communication and military system showed their true colors by going into fairy tale mode in support of the Oswald fiction. Seems like a whole bunch of powerful people felt threatened by him. As Gibson points out, over the short JFK era and for a few years afterward the average worker in the US made massive real gains in income - over 30% in 6 years - and businesses made a similar leap in profits. The Moon was 'possibly' visited by Americans a few times, and the US still glowed welcomingly in people's minds, in many distant places.

But there were many curses unfolding. A few trillion dollars were being spent on ever more thousands of ever more marvelous (irony) nuclear weapons, the CIA stuck its toxic operators everywhere and into everything, the RAND Corporation and Kennan and pals endorsed a philosophy of being the meanest bastard ever while smiling and talking about apple pie and democracy and freedom. Death Squads for the Americas; Gladio for Europe; Agent Orange for Indochina.

Fast forward to the late 20th century and into the now and there are 325 ish million USians
who are brain damaged by vaccines and Aspartame and fluoride and pharmaceuticals and generally a diet unfit for human health; tens of millions are on anti-depressants, and in sad category after sad category the US is number one or close to it: cancer, diabetes, obesity etc etc. Personal wealth and government debt is 'the greatest in human history' (say it like those old news reels). More people are imprisoned than in India and China combined, and for free speech in freedom there are wired off zones where you might still get tazered just for the fun of it.

Friends whose business takes them around the US and who are American describe what they encounter when they travel the US as disturbingly a more and more demoralized, brain dead, unhealthy, depressed, fear ridden people. They say things like: you can't even have a conversation with them.

Posted by: Robert Snefjella | Mar 25 2014 1:05 utc | 149

#148, #149


Posted by: Nora | Mar 25 2014 1:10 utc | 150


one of the most implacable anti imperialist nnovels was written by an american - trvolutionary road by richard yates - it is a terrifying picture of america in the 1950's - it is so dark i found it strange that at the same time sayd qutb wrote what is called his masterwork as the theoretical foundation of political islam, takfiris - & surprisingly or not, yates novel is the more savage, the more unrelenting, - no exits, it is a courageous work about what happens with malignant dreams in a culture that concocts them - it is far more reaching than qutb because it goes straight to the heart of the matter. i think it was the only novel. there was a film of it that whaile it could not compare to the written word, possessed the same harshhness & froideur

like melville or blake, if you read closely you see the monster being created & their very perceptive vision of it which is as true today as when it was written, perhaps more pertinent

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25 2014 1:14 utc | 151


So in short...

You dont like pragma because...

Because he doesnt agree with you.

Uh... You realize thats really stupid right?

If I start saying the problem is not US Imperialism but, I dont know, Ponies, will you start doing personal ad hominem attacks on me too?

Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 25 2014 1:18 utc | 152



> Friends whose business takes them around the US and who are American describe what they encounter when they travel the US as disturbingly a more and more demoralized, brain dead, unhealthy, depressed, fear ridden people. They say things like: you can't even have a conversation with them.

IMO that's very true observation for all of the "previously/recently developed" countries. One may create multiple theories to explain, and mine is not much different. Just that not I created it - globalization forces capital moving out of rich countries and pour into poor ones. Since population is like 10 times different, poor countries doesn't really notice it but rich do.

This outcome [geographical homogenization] is actually the only one positive from current ultra-liberalism policy as I see it. It doesn't have anything to do with overall disparity which is up worse but geo-homogenization is generally good I believe. Not controlled though, it will create some troubles for sure. Eagerly waiting to see which ones exactly.

>> prompted by Sergey's astute missives
Thanks but I didn't really meant "to be astute" if my dictionary is anywhere close. Still, I'll try to keep up if I can.

Posted by: Sergey | Mar 25 2014 1:21 utc | 153


OMG, I read that!

Truly, truly terrifying; it hung with me forever. Sergey, if you're still looking for factors in my thinking, THAT. BOOK. !!!!!


Posted by: Nora | Mar 25 2014 1:21 utc | 154

christopher hedges has a hint of it at his darkest but really it is relentless & it took me by surprise, its force, its attack - to use this young couple as the means to do it, it is like fitzgerald just touched the edges of that darkness

do in the end i am not so surprised that the empire has the impulse to create 'failed states' because in effect at the micro level it has always been that

ukraine cannot be anything else now

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25 2014 1:33 utc | 155


> Sergey, if you're still looking
Nora, yes, I'm still trying.
r'giap's language is not an easy part for me to follow.
I'll read it several more times since I'm intrigued.

Posted by: Sergey | Mar 25 2014 1:34 utc | 156


So what I came up after reading again is that I'd better read soon. I'll put it on top on my list, thx.

I don't like to be rude again but it sounds like "generation" trait. There should be smth besides, or we're all doomed.

Posted by: Sergey | Mar 25 2014 1:42 utc | 157

re: Revolutionary Road

At the time (1960 maybe?) it seemed one of several options; at least I took it that way. But now, it seems the road everyone here has taken.

The horror, the horror...

Posted by: Nora | Mar 25 2014 1:46 utc | 158

#157 Sergey

I think it's more of a normal curve than generational, really. Maybe a different distribution during the Reagan years where so many young people just got into greed, but todays young people really are getting more aware again. The problem is, they've got so much against them: not-great education, no jobs, hideous culture and few decent role models. Plus, of course, a non-workable political system that restricts entry to True Believers.

And speaking of which, Erich Hoffer, The True Believer is another book you might want to read. He pretty much nails how so many people here are so damned easily manipulated.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 25 2014 1:54 utc | 159


Good news. Now that you are so nicely chatting away on intellectual trivia without any real danger of connecting to reality you are, I'm pleased to assume, not any more suspicious of being an alter ego of mine (or me of you).


Meanwhile real people in real ukraine are really robbed, plundered, sold out, or in worst case murdered. But that, of course, shall not disturb our nice little chat, shall it.

Oh and a - don't worry, very short - intermezzo of high importance. The teflon in Mrs. Blooms frying pan seems somewhat worn off.


Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 25 2014 1:54 utc | 160

Mr P,

Sergey is interested in trying to understand us better, and I'm interested in r'giap learning more about Jewish thinking and the role of AIPAC. C'mon now... My messed-up country is messing up the entire planet: the more people everywhere understand, the better we can all figure out the best ways to stop it. And books and articles can sometimes be as good as blog posts and discussions...

Posted by: Nora | Mar 25 2014 1:58 utc | 161

Hey Nobody, what fun is, and to find it a disinformation site - and very top-shelf - then to consider "that between the lines one finds,with a little patience, a lot of good information." And what a vivacious blog is MoonOverAlabama.
& Oh. Viva Putin and Viva Russland, and to hell with mirage queen, Elizabeth NoName's satanic regime. She has lost Ukraina.

Posted by: Michaël | Mar 25 2014 2:06 utc | 162

Understanding? What a beautiful thing.

Iraq is full of people who understood perfectly well. A bullet into a human or into his/her child or, as has happened unpleasantly often, bullets into the whole family immensely fuel understanding the subtleties of zionists and their agents and puppets.
Recently many ukrainians also become masters in the art of understanding.
Maybe I myself can enhance my understanding, too, once r'giaps friends have sent me to valhalla.

Understanding? Lovely.

Poor Mrs. Bloom. So far away from understanding in her cozy home with her cozy tv showing cozy images of understanding ukrainians.


Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 25 2014 2:08 utc | 163


Mr. P.

> Meanwhile real people in real ukraine are really robbed, plundered, sold out, or in worst case murdered. But that, of course, shall not disturb our nice little chat, shall it.

So what is that? Why you're still not there in Kiev making reconnaissance for Russian troops advance ?

I do like some of your theories, but when it comes to practice you do sound strange. 2 weeks ago @ the weekend in the bar I was talking to my wife about my possible options to join the Army on contract. While I was listening to her pointless whining for no reason the company of 3 young ppl on the next table stated they've just joined. Where you were then?

You're not the only one who does worry. Actually, you're one of the last one who does practically - you're not in Moscow which is 100% dead in case of a full-scale war with NATO and you're not even in Belgorod which may suffer a lot in case of limited war with Ukraine.

Just resign on this or do smth. Millions were living in cold war fearing termination for years, and hundreds were dying each year in fact. While alive, we have to work another way. And mutual understanding is clearly not the worst direction to move on. Banal, but I guess that's how the previous generation made it thru in fact.

// Feel stupid

Posted by: Sergey | Mar 25 2014 2:12 utc | 164


you reveal yourself, so quickly, subtle as a sledgehammer

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25 2014 2:13 utc | 165

remembererringgiap #148

when the empire did what it did in iraq, it was a turning point

The turning point was the bombing of Yugoslavia.

Posted by: Demian | Mar 25 2014 2:14 utc | 166


thanks, clear as a bell

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25 2014 2:15 utc | 167


i disagree

but would like to know why you think that

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25 2014 2:20 utc | 168


"Zionist thinking"

Fixed it for you...

Not all Jews think the same way, and not all jews are zionists...

Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 25 2014 2:27 utc | 169


You seem to be very well informed about me knowing where I am and where I am not what I'm doing and what I'm not doing. Miraculous.
Even better, you judge me and my right to speak here, based on your personal vague guessing. I think you'll come along fine with r'giap.

I find it very telling when people start to discuss other people rather than issues.

And, of course, I outright admire r'giap who so subtly uses classical nazi phrasing (valhalla, killing) while he's not even capable of reading (e.g. the many instances of me clearly distinguishing jews and zionists) and, if he can't escape to recognize his error, he simply states that he doesn't believe me.

Lovely! And so handy. "It's written many times. But I don't believe you. You'll be sent to valhalla. Bang".

And of course we immensely value b's work. We just happen to shit on it by ignoring the matterand employing nazi methods.


Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 25 2014 2:28 utc | 170

every post you male more revealing than the last about your 'little operatiion'

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25 2014 2:30 utc | 171

19,200 people so far have signed a petition asking for Alaska to secede and (re-)join Russia.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 25 2014 2:31 utc | 172

Massinissa #169. No, actually, the book by Shahak is a history of Jews and Jewish thinking, and it's very, very interesting. The other two, yeah, Zionism. But that Shahak book is really quite good, just as a history of a people.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 25 2014 2:34 utc | 173

i am quite happy to be judged for what i have done in this community for over a decade, about who & what i am, for ill or for good; i have been insulted by experts, you are not one of them

if you were at all familiar with the novel nnora & i were speaking of you might have understood why the empire is foomed to create failed states

but that is not the intention of your 'little operation' is it

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25 2014 2:34 utc | 174


Mr P.

I've been offensive indeed. But I don't even feel like I need to sorry on my last comment - you provoke it with every sentence of your last comment.

> And of course we immensely value b's work
We do. Believe it makes sense to focus at least on this commonality for today.

Posted by: Sergey | Mar 25 2014 2:34 utc | 175


Oh, me sooo impressed by your repeated utterings.

You value b's work but you rip it to pieces by conducting a personal hate crusade.
You know me and judge me but you're proven wrong again and again and told so by others, too.
You are sooo anti anti-semite but you employ nazi methods like blabbering about sending people to valhalla.

Short, you're a complete asshole way out of your base and insane enough to think you could impress anyone here or even myself.

And now go on farting and looking oh so dangerous.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 25 2014 2:39 utc | 176

as i said each post, telling, please go on

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25 2014 2:40 utc | 177


Offensive? With all due respect, no. Rather idiotic and not founded by any means.

And now I won't disturb your conversation with r'giap and other crypto-nazis anymore.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 25 2014 2:44 utc | 178

Sergey, r'giap and Mr. P,

Hey guys, we all come here with different backgrounds and varying viewpoints precisely bc we don't want any more echo-chambers filled with censored, pre-digested pablum. Can't we just agree to disagree, agreeably, and then discuss the issues at hand? I personally value, and think about, what each of you has to say but I'm probably never gonna agree with all of it. So what?

Posted by: Nora | Mar 25 2014 2:45 utc | 179


No, we can't. Not with hate crusaders, crypto-nazis and zionists suffocating and chopping up each and every thread.

I'm certainly not interested in that.

But maybe you can. Enjoy.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Mar 25 2014 2:49 utc | 180

nora i am not an evangelist, nor even a rhetorician

it is not my intention to have you agree with me though, the novel has a particular resonance today

178 is a 'little operation' there is nothing to communicate with, it will do its own dismantling without me

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25 2014 2:51 utc | 181

Well, I'm gonna channel Rodney King here and just say, "Can't we all get along?" and hope to have better luck than he did. Maybe this will put y'all in a better mood, separately if not together:

Putin is just so damned impressive. Just watch him in action here:

Posted by: Nora | Mar 25 2014 3:02 utc | 182

yes, putin & lavrov are almost perfect exemplars of sobriety, they make the americans seem really hysteric

though it would make me sicker than i already am, i would love to see how the psychopath john bolton is reacting to it, his toupée would be swinging around the room

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25 2014 3:07 utc | 183

@remembererringgiap #168:

That was when the US started exercising its "responsibility to protect" and doing so by assembling coalitions of the willing. Yugoslavia was not going along with the neoliberal model, so it had to be destroyed. Also, Serbia was an ally of Russia, and Russia had to be shown that it was helpless against the will of NATO.

Posted by: Demian | Mar 25 2014 3:22 utc | 184

Sounds like you lot could use something to smile about:

Russian social media flashmob pokes fun at sanctions over Crimea

Posted by: scalawag | Mar 25 2014 3:26 utc | 185

@171 Actually, no, every post you make shows your inability to either read or type.

Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 25 2014 3:31 utc | 186

Mr P.,

Getting in the dirt and wrestling with swine is a losing game. Your time is much better spent on topics such as "how Russia can influence the Ukrainian military" or "counter-offensives Russia can take to put the fear of God" in parts of Europe.

Posted by: Ozawa | Mar 25 2014 3:31 utc | 187

This is potentially very interesting ...Sashko Biliy... the nationalist bully made infamous by a sequence of videos in which he intimidates journalists, administrators, etc. (one was linked to here) was gunned down execution style...

But right before he was killed he allegedly posted this:

"Leadership of the General Prosecutor's Office of Ukraine MIA decided about my physical destruction or capture and delivery of me to Russia, so that they would blame everything on the special services of Russia. For this operation, a special team was created . We have 100% accurate information .

This is my appeal please consider representations to the Security Service of Ukraine.

I appeal also to their colleagues, to all Ukrainian nationalists , patriots , I am not afraid of death, and the living will not give up ! Let my enemies do not trust that I destroyed , they will sleep soundly . My take place other patriots who will continue our struggle . "

Read here:

In a poll of his fellow nationalists: 39% said he was killed by Tymoshenko's people, 9% said he was killed by his own group Right Sector...

Posted by: CC | Mar 25 2014 3:32 utc | 188

@Nora (#143)

I read that article in counter punch by Alison Weir -I think- yesterday, and I must say that I really did not like it.
But I understand that you have been impressed by that article? So please explain to me, because neither Ms. Weir, nor mearsheimer and walt ever explain what was/is the main motive behind the zionists' endeavour to go to the great length of clearing a piece of desert out of its native population and fight all the regional nations and to force reluctant jews from all around the globe to come that piece of desert and create a permanently unstable and insecure country (which would ALWAYS be in a state of complete dependence on the West for its continued existence)? What was their end goal? What did they hope to achieve in creating Israel?
Interestingly she talks time and again about how the "zionists" have poured enormous amounts of money into propaganda and intimidation campaigns in order to get USA under their control.
We are talking about hijacking the state apparatus of the center of the capitalist world!
That requires sh**t load of money! In order to make this clear I suggest anyone to try to come up with a way to coerce congress and the president to our own end and let's see how successful you will be. How much money do you need to affect the "election" of a *single* candidate into congress? Now imagine how much you would need to buy the whole god damn congress with hundreds of senators! How much money do you need to make a campaign to create a large "christian" basis for zionism? This means that some very powerful capitalists commanding huge sums of capital were promoting zionism. Now first of all this means that if you have some such huge sums of capital (enough to bully the state, and coerce/buy its apparatus to your own ends) that you already own the damn country! So in essence this is no longer the conspiracy of a racial/religious sect to hijack a country which is not ruled by them; but rather the grand project of those who already own the country in trying to push the general public opinion in a certain direction. But then again this hardly amounts to "hijacking" the country, after all managing/manipulating/directing the public opinion by the true masters/owners of the state is the common state of affair in a capitalist country. Secondly pouring such humongous amounts of money could only mean one thing and one thing only and that is that they expected a hefty rate of return. This hefty rate of return completely negates the implicit thesis of the article regarding the promotion of zionism going against the US national interests (by nat. int. I mean the *economic* interests of the ruling elite or the so called "top %1").
So could you please explain to me how the support for Israel has been harming the economic interests of the top 1%? Because neither Ms. Weis nor 'mearsheimer and walt' explain that. And if there was no hefty rate of return involved then what was their ultimate motive in creating/supporting Israel?

Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Mar 25 2014 3:36 utc | 189

Posted by: CC | Mar 24, 2014 11:32:21 PM | 188

The poor fat slob. ;)

Sounds like somebody was securing a "loose cannon".

Posted by: scalawag | Mar 25 2014 3:59 utc | 190


rather than state the obvious, that the state of israel has developed into a criminal enterprise like saudi arabia& that it contravenes hundred of international laws & its own laws - some people need to go the whole shebang, the conspiracy theory of a few 'work shy' but devilish clever jews who sit in a cabal concocting the end of the west. it is a fairy story in more ways than one - they refuse to face that there are laws of history which allow us to examine why u s imperialism is the central threat of humanity but don't expect these people to provide a real response, let alone an answer

the real historical laws will be left unexamined, they are like alex jones, screaming & shrieking, it is obliged to be hysteric because it contains no sense, as you have pointed out, not even the most basic logic

instead of seeing that the empire wants to loot as much as it can in ukraine, they search out - these devlish jews once again - it is like der sturmer

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25 2014 4:00 utc | 191

next they will tell us the muslim brotherhood are devilish jews without the ringlets but me i await how ulan bator can be connected to the great conspiracy, perhaps rothschild had a monopoly on yaks

Posted by: remembererringgiap | Mar 25 2014 4:04 utc | 192

Put a sock in it, Israelis.

Posted by: scalawag | Mar 25 2014 4:17 utc | 193

In the head local "The right sector" Sashko Bely is Exactly killed. On it endow handcuffs and shot

An English translation, gives some details of the shooting. Some people were also kidnapped by the shooters.

This might be something of a game changer.

Posted by: scalawag | Mar 25 2014 4:29 utc | 194

it seems Sashko Billy is dead:"

sashko billy meets his end...apparently expected it

Anatoly Karlin ‏@akarlin88 1h
Yeah, appears that the Muzychko assassination is real after all.

Anatoly Karlin ‏@akarlin88 1h
Armed men burst into cafe; bodyguards didn't help; Muzychko tried to flee, but was shot in leg; finished off by control shot to the heart.

Posted by: brian | Mar 25 2014 4:34 utc | 195

in other good news:
Anatoly Karlin ‏@akarlin88 1h
Salaries of Crimean policemen to double from $550 to $1,100-$1,250.

Posted by: brian | Mar 25 2014 4:35 utc | 196

@191 Do you NEVER get the message?!

PRAGMA. DOES. NOT. Hate. Jews.


Good GOD man...

Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 25 2014 4:50 utc | 197

@149 Robert Snefjella - you wouldn't be alluding to the dynamics on this board at present perchance? it would certainly fit!

Posted by: james | Mar 25 2014 5:11 utc | 198

Oleg Volkov
24 March 2014 11:53am

Anton Dmitriev, staunch supporter of Maidan posted a new article:
He's wrote several articles through this months to alternative Russian press (yes, despite of what you may hear in West, we do have these), but it seems he now starts to understand what pretty much every Russian was writing to every Maidan activist - you only destroying your own law and order. His own brother got beaten by some frenzied "revolutionaries" and he now admits that he hears more and more reports around about people being afraid to go outside when dark in Kiev.

Posted by: brian | Mar 25 2014 5:15 utc | 199

brian at 199: Thanks, good catch, though that should be Chicago of the 1920s, or now in the neighborhoods the police treat like hostile territory and war zones.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 25 2014 5:40 utc | 200

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