Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
March 24, 2014

Fascist Ukrainian Defense Minister's War Orders Defied

The fascist new defense minister of Ukraine ordered to start a war but was disobeyed. He says that is "regrettable."

Not found this in any English language news yet but several German media reports mention this (my translation from FAZ) :

Meanwhile it became clear that the commanders of Ukrainian warships on the Crimea defied orders from the provisional government in Kiev to use their arms. The Ukrainian minister of defense Ihor Tenyukh said on Sunday in Kiev, Russia managed "despite orders to all commanders to use weapons" to take over the ships. "Regrettably" the commanders decided themselves on how to proceed, he said.

Tenyugh is a member of the fascist Svoboda party that took part in the February 21 coup against the legitimate Ukrainian government. His legally dubious order to shoot at Russian troops in a rather hopeless situation could have easily started a larger war.

My deep gratitude to all those Ukrainian commanders who defied the lunatic order to start a hot war with Russia and allowed a peaceful handover of their equipment to Russian forces.

Posted by b on March 24, 2014 at 10:14 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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@191 r'giap

Zionist power keeps the criminal operation in Israel going and your refusal to admit that helps to enable and perpetuate this crime. You're trying to tell us our eyes deceive us the emperor has clothes by negating the breadth of Zionist power! But our eyes don't lie because this Zionist criminal operation would never be perpetuated this long with total impunity without that much power behind it!

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 25 2014 6:14 utc | 201

@143 Nora

How goes it? Excellent Counterpunch article you posted; Thanks; it's so relevant and informative. I really didn't know that Zionists were that aggressively involved in cementing their influence in the U.S. at such an early stage; maybe I was too modest in my estimation. You always have such interesting references in many of your posts. I'm impressed. I haven't been able to post today, but did read some of the comments. Always like reading you; you make so much sense and you're so diplomatic; I don't know how you maintain your cool.

I'm gonna have to leave it at that for today; but I'll try to check in tomorrow. Hope to read more from you!

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 25 2014 6:47 utc | 202

Massinissa at 197: FWIW Pragma is likely a sincere 'Jewish/Zionist conspiracy' Russophile neo-Nazi. It's a perspective that has some devoted followers in Russia, derived from the WWIII-ish rantings of Aleksandr Dugin (the party based on his ideology got 1% of votes in 1995 (after which it splintered), so don't buy the hype that his theories are wildly popular in Russia). The West is demonizing Putin by pretending he is a 'Duginist' intent on creating a huge Russian empire, but there is no evidence of that. Note that the contrast between the warmongering Dugin's desires and Putin's sensible, smart conduct has in recent days generated anti-Putin warmongering rants from Pragma.

In any case, here's Pragma doing his Zionist/Anti-Semitic conspiracy thing:

Neither is it coincidence that (before the creation of izrael but about the time of the balfour deal ...) Russia was poisoned by zionist "communists" (just another projection), nor is it coincidence that Germany was relentlessly pushed into war and later broken and crushed ...

I asked him for evidence that Hitler's Germany "was relentlessly pushed into war" and of course he did not respond. Asked him too about what he thinks the "zionist 'communists'" were. No response. Google those phrases and you'll come up with some pretty Nazi lunatic stuff.

After being here for a month, by the way, my take on 'Team Pragma' is changing. I think kalithea and especially nora have different perspectives than pragma. They believe in a pure 'worldwide hundred-plus-year-old Zionist conspiracy' theory, which they hold responsible for almost all of the world's imperialism over that time. Pragma believes that too, but adds to it his Russophile neo-Nazi beliefs derived from Dugin.

Also, Nora readily conflates Jews and Zionists, while Pragma does not. Good Pragma. Nonetheless, his belief in a 100+ year old Zionist conspiracy cooked up by Jews is anti-Semitist anyway. Bad Pragma.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 25 2014 6:47 utc | 203

Posted by: Massinissa | Mar 25, 2014 12:50:21 AM | 197

Well, how come he cannot avoid this misunderstanding? Maybe we do understand.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 25 2014 6:53 utc | 204

Posted by: scalawag | Mar 25, 2014 12:29:21 AM | 194

Yeah, they blame "Russian separatists" in the article you link to. It is the road to civil war.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 25 2014 6:58 utc | 205

Pirouz:

I agree completely with your thesis.

So in essence this is no longer the conspiracy of a racial/religious sect to hijack a country which is not ruled by them; but rather the grand project of those who already own the country in trying to push the general public opinion in a certain direction. But then again this hardly amounts to "hijacking" the country, after all managing/manipulating/directing the public opinion by the true masters/owners of the state is the common state of affair in a capitalist country.

This is brilliant, because it points us in the direction of figuring out why the main superstructure of US capitalism is avidly Zionist. It certainly is a complex topic, but we have to start with this understanding: THEY HAVEN'T BEEN TRICKED.

My beginning take is that Zionist imperialism fits extremely well with the interests of the US military-industrial complex. With the demise of the Soviet Union it needed enemies and it found them in the enemies of Israeli imperialism. Peace is the enemy, and in fact peaceful corporate globalization _can_ also be the enemy. Secondarily, Zionism also fits well with the preferences (not really the needs) of the oil/gas industry in the Middle East, which prefers to make deals with weak, militarily-dependent non-democratic regimes rather than with populist hard-bargainer governments.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 25 2014 7:00 utc | 206

Western propaganda is so self-ironic ... German N24, this morning: Russia to be further isolated -- G8 becomes G7.

Posted by: g_h | Mar 25 2014 7:08 utc | 207

@203 fairleft

I just got pulled in for one more comment; ay I'm tired, but... Unless this is the year 2050; then I don't believe in the one hundred plus year Zionist conspiracy. What interests me is how they're able to pull off the biggest racist criminal operation in modern history for so long with total impunity. And making U.S. interests synonymous with theirs was their ticket to ride and in order to do that; they had to get into the Pentagon and Congress and next to the executive office with lot's of influence coming from Wall Streets executive offices. That implies having lots and lots of power, but they accomplished just that and more!

You see my beef with Zionists is their control issue. They seem to believe that unless they have all power-bases covered through the media, government, and high finance that moves the U.S. in the "right" Zionist direction, their precious Zionism won't survive and they're right!

Unless the world is completely neutralized Zionism is forever on the road to extinction because it's so flawed it needs a tremendous cover-up operation. So that's why Zionists need to control the hegemonic agenda because they need to make the world Zionist-friendly territory all over, but there's also the fact that Israel is an oil and water-deprived nation and this fact too motivates a great part of the Zionist hegemonic agenda.

Posted by: kalithea | Mar 25 2014 7:15 utc | 208

@fairleft #203:

It's Slavophile, not Russophile. Dugin is Russian. The idea of a Russian Russophile makes as much sense as the idea of an English Anglophile.

And have you even read anything by Dugin? His argument is that there have been three main ideologies: liberalism, fascism, and socialism. Today, the last two have sunken to irrelevance, so that liberalism isn't even perceived as an ideology, but taken as a given. Dugin argues that liberalism has morphed into postmodernism, an elite theory that discards the traditional outlooks that give most people meaning to their lives.

How is this idea "neo-Nazi"? The Nazis were radicals, wanting to overturn established norms, such as democracy and Christian morality. Dugin's political theory is a variety of conservatism (in the correct, original sense of the term, not the sense used by the Tea Party and Fox News).

Posted by: Demian | Mar 25 2014 7:25 utc | 210

Posted by: g_h | Mar 25, 2014 3:08:43 AM | 207

Russian propaganda, too. Putin, the strong leader, saving Russian speakers.

This here is how a Russian speaker feels in Odessa

This here is Svoboda moaning about the disadvantage he had speaking Ukraininan

Of course, if you want your kids to succeed you teach them a World Language - Russian, English - not a language that is used by few people.

A Brit in Odessa explains Ukrainian politics.

Oh there is an interview with a Pravy Sector spokesman, too.

Add to that crazed Yulia Timoschenko, Europe/US is now allied to the most reactionary part of Ukraine.

Putin is allied to another reactionary part.


Posted by: somebody | Mar 25 2014 7:27 utc | 211

for balance :-))

Russia Today on BBC propaganda and CIA posing as journalists

I think it is a very good idea, if each expose the propaganda of the other.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 25 2014 7:47 utc | 212

I think the biggest "racist criminal operation in modern history" was actually Hitler's empire and murder crusade. How the Zionists have stayed on top has to involve the military-industrial complex, or more specifically the arms industry. You'll see the arms industry all over the neocon project right from the beginning. Henry Jackson of Washington (Boeing) for example practically birthed the movement all by himself. Some of his key advisers were Zionists and arms industry lobbyists. In early days they were directly on the take of the arms industry.

Again, you refer to the Zionist project as this immense criminal enterprise and it is _now_, but in its early days the size of the colony was comparatively tiny and just another among dozens of racist colonial enterprise. Acceptance in the late 1940s was made much easier because decent people everywhere were shell-shocked by Hitler's diabolical evil, and also the left hadn't really woken up to racism that is colonialism. And the project was very carefully PR-ed as progressive: 'socialist kibbutzes', 'making the desert bloom', 'a land without a people', and 'why not let the Jews do it, all the other Europeans have colonies...'

Israeli imperialism beyond its 1967 borders was ... a post-1967 thing. That imperialism is impossible to solve and creates permanent resistance, which the US arms industry now uses to create sales.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 25 2014 8:03 utc | 213

Demian, 210

His argument is that there have been three main ideologies: liberalism, fascism, and socialism. Today, the last two have sunken to irrelevance, so that liberalism isn't even perceived as an ideology, but taken as a given. Dugin argues that liberalism has morphed into postmodernism, an elite theory that discards the traditional outlooks that give most people meaning to their lives ...

How is this idea "neo-Nazi"? The Nazis were radicals, wanting to overturn established norms, such as democracy and Christian morality. Dugin's political theory is a variety of conservatism (in the correct, original sense of the term, not the sense used by the Tea Party and Fox News)

You are right, it is not neonazi, it is vile reactionary nevertheless. It divides people into
- the enlightened liberal elite, ruling
- the people in "traditional outlooks that give most people meaning to their lives"

Of course, there is a nice virtuous side to "traditional outlooks", but there is the intolerant, xenophobic, homophobic, prejudiced, redneck side too, that is unable to deal with deviance and dissent, and "traditional outlooks" do get into conflict with each other.

It is left to the "enlightened leaders" to manage the conflict, to manipulate the "traditional outlooks" of their people instead of allowing people to think for themselves.

I would argue that every "traditional outlook" - and they vary greatly throughout the world - is part of the human project for consciousness. So this competition of "values" is well worth it, but we should question any "traditional outlook" and confront it with another one.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 25 2014 8:06 utc | 214

Demian at 210: Pragma's a Russophile and Anglophile for an Englishman makes perfect sense.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 25 2014 8:43 utc | 215

No MSM have yet written about the psycho tymoshenko's threat to genocide russians...thats disgusting!

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 25 2014 8:50 utc | 216

Demian at 210: If you want to summarize Dugin differently I won't make a big deal out of the semantics. But Neo-Nazi in the following sense: 'Slavs led by Russia' is _very_ reminiscent of 'Aryans led by Germany'. His attack on post-modernism and liberalism is _very_ reminiscent of Nazis attacks on modernism and liberalism. He's anti-socialist like the Nazis, and like Nazis and all non-socialists misplaces the enemy as 'liberals' or whatever, failing to figure out that the obvious real enemy is the owning classes.

Posted by: fairleft | Mar 25 2014 8:59 utc | 217

216) It is in the Kyiv Post now will not take long.

Actually, Western main stream media has distanced themselves from Tymoshenko a while ago, I guess the Fatherland Party is implicated in those sniper deaths.

For some reason, the Svoboda prosecutor has not chosen the easy way out to claim the snipers were Russian, but explicitely stated they were Ukrainian, though he could not yet name the names - which is curious in itself.

In other news, the party of regions is working on a regional constitution - which is a Russian demand. And Obama has clearly stated that neither Europe, nor Ukraine should be forced to choose between the US and Russia.

So ...

Posted by: somebody | Mar 25 2014 9:03 utc | 218

Special forces of Tymoshenko's people did in Sashko Biliy and now admit to it:
http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2014/03/25/7020191/

Is this the beginning of the end of alliance between the nationalists and Tymoshenko NATO oligarchs???

Posted by: CC | Mar 25 2014 9:20 utc | 219

CC 188)
Yep, Ukrainian interior ministry make it official, it was their operation

killed, resisting arrest

Posted by: somebody | Mar 25 2014 9:22 utc | 220

He resisted, they said.... well, how did he end up dead with 2 bullets to the heart in handcuff in the middle of a field...

Posted by: CC | Mar 25 2014 9:22 utc | 221

Muzychko Killed:_
http://nsnbc.me/2014/03/25/ukraine-pravy-sector-leader-muzychko-shot-dead/

Posted by: Alessandro | Mar 25 2014 9:22 utc | 222

They say he jumped out of a window and stared running... but in those pictures that I linked to he is on his back with his hands behind as in handcuffs and the reports are he was handcuffed

http://vk.com/w8tan?z=photo-44739306_325603216%2Fwall-44739306_171981 look through pictures here

He was a regional head of head of Right Sector. And the team that did him in was called Sokil, which is another type of special forces in addition to Berkut

Need to monitor Right Sector social media, will they just accept this or demand Avakov's head -- firing from the post of Minister of Internal Affairs...

Posted by: CC | Mar 25 2014 9:28 utc | 223

Posted by: CC | Mar 25, 2014 5:28:52 AM | 223

there goes the "democratic coalition" ...

Posted by: somebody | Mar 25 2014 9:38 utc | 224

This news item says that a criminal investigation was opened in the murder of Sashko Biliy. It says he was found dead, as in someone FOUND him dead. The people who did him in arrived on 3 minivans. So if they wanted to arrest him, and he resisted and shot him, why did they not take him to a hospital... it was clearly an assassination... a cartel style hit with the victim left as a warning to others...

http://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2014/03/25/7020186/

A message to the Right Sector...

This happened at the same time as Tymoshenko released her faked recording in which she threatens to shoot Putin in the head... she is Kim Kardashian of politics and is trying to get street cred and claim Right Sectors supporters. Which means she is unpopular in the East and, with the nationalist base split between Right Sector's Yarosh, Svoboda's Tehnibok (or whatever his name is), Udar's Klichko and her, a unified candidate from the East would have a smooth sailing. Expect hits on Klichko and Tehnibok...

Posted by: CC | Mar 25 2014 9:43 utc | 225

News photo shows the corpse of Sashko Biliy in an Oakland Raider jacket. Pride and Poise!

Posted by: the snake | Mar 25 2014 10:19 utc | 226

This is epic...
This is from the Misanthropic division...
This is entitled: The oligarchs beginning the attach....
The article says that:

the oligarchs brought in foreign mercenaries to clan up Right Sector and the area around Kiev city (?, maybe because of recent criminal activity there) and suppress protests in the East

Sach Biliy is just the beginning, the hit to the heart indicates foreign Western killers

Yarosh (the leader of right sector) will be next. The oligarchs would like to decapitate the leadership and goad the common members into National Gvardia (a type of internal special forces that would be a private army of the oligarchs). The oligarchs are bringing foreign Western mercenaries to lead the Gvardia units. Gvardia will be used to suppress popular discontent and to protect the oligarchs.

There will be provocations by the foreign forces to test readiness of the Right Sector

Turchinov (speaker of the legislature) and Kolomiski (oligarch, governor of the Dnipropetrovsk region, dual citizenship with Israel) and other members of the legislature sponsor the foreigners

The West does not need revolutionaries who undermined Eurointegration. The West will destroy their own relations.

The revolution consumes its own revolutionaries

End translation
From here: http://vk.com/w8tan?w=wall-44739306_172026

Well, at least they were under no illusion that the alliance would last. Tymoshenko is ruthless. Until she is around none of them is safe...

Posted by: CC | Mar 25 2014 10:19 utc | 227

Sorry for misspelling above, in a rush...

Posted by: CC | Mar 25 2014 10:20 utc | 228

I haven't read all the comments, but there does appear to be a lot of drivel (especially from r’giap).

Given the heat of the invective here, it is pointless trying to have a rational dialogue.

For anyone other than those screaming about “Zionist/Anti-Semitic conspiracy things”-you might be able to learn something by starting with Gilad Atzmon

Posted by: DM | Mar 25 2014 12:10 utc | 229

229 DM

Let me quote the Angry Arab

People have been asking me about him a lot as of late: in the UK and the US. I make it very clear: this is somebody that we should reject from the pro-Palestinian advocacy movement. He is anti-Jewish and his offensive language against Jews and Judaism should be categorically rejected. I would put the name of Israel Shamir in the same category. Anti-Semites belong to the Zionist side, and not to our side.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 25 2014 12:28 utc | 230

‘Revival of anarchy’: Ukraine radicals rob Russia-Moldova train passengers

Nenad BLAGOJEVIC | 25.03.2014 | 10:00

The recent robbing of passengers, traveling from Russia to Moldova via Ukraine’s territory, by a local ultra-nationalist Insurgent Army is a manifestation of “anarchy,” the Russian Foreign Ministry has said.

On March 21, the train, en route from Moscow to the capital of Moldova, Chisinau, made a scheduled stop in the city of Vinnitsa in central Ukraine.

http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/03/25/revival-anarchy-ukraine-radicals-rob-russia-moldova-train-passengers.html

Posted by: okie farmer | Mar 25 2014 12:51 utc | 231

Pirouz_2 #189

First, there's a difference between the facts she cites and the opinions we may have about them -- how any one person makes sense of those facts utilizing other facts and various assumptions, etc. So all I can give you is my opinion, based on the facts I know and how I've personally put them together. That said, it only takes $5,000 to buy a congressman, especially since he or she can see what happens to anyone not in line (Cynthia McKinney, Pete McCloskey, James Abourezk, a guy from Illinois whose name I can't remember, and even Charles Percy; my guess is Ron Paul pulled out so as to have his views not interfere with his son's presidential campaign). So no, it doesn't really take that much money at all, in absolute terms.

But second, I really haven't a clue who's running the show but I don't think it's *at all* like The Protocols of Zion -- there's no need for anyone to tell anyone else the marching orders bc they're all kind of marching in synch anyhow, with each of them doing their own thing just kind of all in the same direction. BUT we have seen that that "thing" pretty much follows PNAC, which was designed for the benefit of Israel. Was the US hijacked? No. Is the US -- all the alphabet organizations and agencies of and/or at least semi-funded by the government -- marching in a direction *thought by Zionists to be* advantageous to Israel while not at all to the benefit of the US? Why yes, yes it is. And that's good enough for me.

As for the top 1%, they've already stacked the deck so nothing harms them, and ought to be tarred, feathered and strung from lightposts imnsho.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 25 2014 13:45 utc | 232

Pirouz_2 #189

An addendum: Not enough coffee, I guess: I forgot to mention the non-Jewish component of our Empire, and it is substantial. First, as in Israel, and most countries with large armies I assume, our military attracts in its leadership, well, people of a certain xenophobic ilk. And if their national ethos is empire, or expansion, that's just What They Do. Plus, the Air Force Academy and thus the Air Force are loaded to the gills with Christian Zionist nutcakes -- to the extent of even putting their favorite (violent) Bible verses on their weapons. And the other branches have their share too, plus military contractors whose bread-and-butter is selling weapons so of course they're in favor of any need to use them. Plus too Capitalism itself is predicated on expansion/extraction.

So in my opinion what you've really got is the confluence of a whole lot of different people acting for different reasons. But the only plans we know of were authored by Zio-Cons for the benefit of Israel. And could a bunch of smart Neocons, who were respected intellectuals before they even became Neocons) out-think a bunch of generals (and ours have not exactly been known for their smarts) who got where they are primarily because of ass-kissing and hall speed? If I had to answer that question I'd sure say yes, but I really don't think it even needs to be asked. Both sides play a role, there's just no need to apportion blame. But it *is* wrong to deny it.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 25 2014 14:01 utc | 233

kalithea #208

Thank you for your earlier comments. Also and more importantly, you just stated far more clearly what it's taken me two posts to try and articulate. So thank you again!

Posted by: Nora | Mar 25 2014 14:09 utc | 234

@ 232
Well, I'see.

When there are two factions of the elites in the US who dissent, what is "good for America", and also two factions of people of jewish descent or even religious denomination, who sides with both, and also have different conception of "beeing jewish" and "whats good for Israel", then the jews on the side which with Nora dissents over "what is good for America" are Zionists and the jews overall are suspicious for "what do they mingle in her ("our") 'business'?"

Very good. That's exactly the odd way xenophobia and racism derives of nationalism - that is to say: of the delusion, the business of your masters, their afflictions, beeing your business and your case.

If them just stop to make the afflictions of their masters their concern and cases, racism is over and Zionists are just your former likes and brethren - bc they are simply nationalists as well.
(While xenophobia may stay, but that's another thing.)

Judaism, Christianity adds nothing essential to this in modern times, they deliver just some cultic / sacred themes and colors to picture and shape the ideologies.

Posted by: TomGard | Mar 25 2014 14:25 utc | 235

A heartwarming picture of Tymoshenko and Nuland sharing a quiet moment. On Radio Free Europe of all places...

http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-tymoshenko-tape-language-russians/25308845.html

Posted by: dh | Mar 25 2014 14:45 utc | 236

dh, that picture looks posed.

Which is even more gag-worthy.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 25 2014 14:50 utc | 237

236) Suspicion is that this was leaked by Tymoshenko for right wing "street cred" to fish for votes. The party of regions MP swearing to take his son and fight for Ukraine won't mind the way he was portrayed either.

Russia Today thinks she shot herself into the foot by doing that.

I guess the Neocon plan is a split of Ukraine. Otherwise I do not understand this type of provocation.

Posted by: somebody | Mar 25 2014 15:00 utc | 238

dh #236

That's kind of an illustration for what I said. Anyone who knows Nuland a little bit won't believe she is able of "hearty" feelings to someone like the gas-princess. Probably she just thinks of how to fuck her.

But for professional nationalists racism is a grave mistake. There afflictions lie in beeing discontent with their own freedom to act, with their own resources, be it territory, subjects, tributaries or overall the proportion of resources they are able to rob by their ruling. Nothing else may count for them, otherwise they stop acting professional and efficient.
So: Conspiracy is the one and only way they can act together, and therefore conspiracy is just a mode, not the topic.

Posted by: TomGard | Mar 25 2014 15:04 utc | 239

from Radik over at the Saker, this is hysterical:

US spy agencies inadvertenly confirm the Russian version of the story of how Crimea was "captured" (i.e. without Russian troops in involved):

. But intelligence analysts were surprised because they hadn't intercepted any telltale communications where Russian leaders, military commanders or soldiers discussed plans to invade.[...]
Looking back, some U.S. officials now suspect Russia might have been trickling more highly trained units into Crimea in small numbers. But U.S. intelligence analysts didn't pick up any such indications before the takeover, officials briefed on the intelligence-gathering effort say.

[...]
Mr. Obama was told the operations could be launched with little warning.

But U.S. intelligence agencies didn't have corroborating evidence. Mr. Putin and other Russian leaders gave little away in internal communications picked up by the U.S. "We didn't have someone saying: 'Let's do this,' " one U.S. official recalls.

It isn't clear if Russian leaders deliberately avoided communicating about the invasion or simply found a way to do so without detection by the U.S. Another possibility: Mr. Putin made a last-minute decision to seize Crimea—and told almost no one other than those responsible for carrying out the invasion.
[...]
Inside Crimea, Russian troops exercised what U.S. officials describe as extraordinary discipline in their radio and cellphone communications. Remarks that were intercepted by U.S. spy agencies revealed no hint of the plans.

On Feb. 27, Mr. Pyatt sent an urgent note to Washington. A picture attached to his note showed Russian flags flying at Crimea's parliament building. U.S. officials didn't know if the forces that seized the building were Russian or a rogue unit of the Ukrainian police force involved in the crackdown on protesters in Kiev.
[...]
If Mr. Putin decided to launch a takeover, many U.S. intelligence analysts thought he would use troops participating in the military exercises. Officials now say they underestimated the quality of Russian forces inside Crimea.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304026304579453331966405354?mg=reno64-wsj

Posted by: Nora | Mar 25 2014 15:10 utc | 240

@237 Nora I see it as a brave show of leaker solidarity. :)

Posted by: dh | Mar 25 2014 15:15 utc | 241

And speaking of the Saker, here is a glorious rant from him in comments on the same thread. It directly applies, of course, to MoA in general, but also some of the conversation upthread.

@Anonymous: Keep away from history.

And give the Empire a total informational monopoly over history? NEVER! Also, without history, we, as people, are nothing but the orphans of our own identity: empty shells devoid from understanding of our world. It is true, he who controls the past does control the present and, therefore, the future. And, yes, knowledge is a powerful weapon. What do you think makes Russian diplomats so different from their modern US colleagues if not the fact that US politicians are totally ignorant of history! Look at Dubya who did not even know that there are Shia and Sunni in Iraq. Look at Rumsfeld with his pathetic "new Europe" crap. When the US and NATO just waltzed in into Yugoslavia they entered a region in which history is the single most important factor, but they though that bombs are good enough, that any historical issues can be bombed into oblivion. Why do you think that the US and EU today support real bona-fide Nazis in the Ukraine, if not because a crass ignorance of history bordering on the criminal, especially for senior decision maker.
A person ignorant of history will buy any propaganda, no matter how self-evidently idiotic it is. No, my friend, not only will I not keep away form history, I will make that a central theme of this blog just because those who have a historical memory need to share it and pass it on to those, however few, who care about it.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 25 2014 15:16 utc | 242

re: 233)

"So in my opinion what you've really got is the confluence of a whole lot of different people acting for different reasons. But the only plans we know of were authored by Zio-Cons for the benefit of Israel."

The Council on Foreign Relations and the Pentagon are also prominent, among many others, among organizations that do influential *planning*: some plotting sees its way into official publication, some is blurted (David Rockefeller's in effect 'I am a traitor and proud of it' autobiographical note), and some can be surmised: by their fruits shall ye know them.

"The confluence of a whole lot of different people...." is facilitated decisively by a vast confluence of incrementally introduced systemic nuts and bolts: when corporations are given superhuman stature in law; when corporate secrecy trumps the public interest; when the airwaves were privatized; and countless more.

One basic overwhelming bit of pathology was the usurpation of unlimited capacity for issuance of credit and control over the money system by private corporations and the heart of darkness is the closeted vile cabal that for generations has dominated this power.

An interesting attempt to chart various linkages can be found at Tragedy and Hope and the Brain project. https://www.tragedyandhope.com/category/peacerevolution

Posted by: Robert Snefjella | Mar 25 2014 15:35 utc | 243

229 DM
Let me quote the Angry Arab (re Atzmon)
People have been asking me about him a lot as of late: in the UK and the US. I make it very clear: this is somebody that we should reject from the pro-Palestinian advocacy movement. He is anti-Jewish and his offensive language against Jews and Judaism should be categorically rejected. I would put the name of Israel Shamir in the same category. Anti-Semites belong to the Zionist side, and not to our side.
Posted by: somebody | Mar 25, 2014 8:28:08 AM | 230

Xymphora warned of Angry Arab's lite Zionist tendencies a couple of years ago. That jumble of contradictory, confused and confusing garbage cited above is typical of what he was referring to. Zionists hate Atzmon because he's dragged Jewish (invented) History through its own mud and neither "Jews" nor "Zionists" have refuted ANY of his (many) criticisms.
It's all in an article called Judea Declares War on Obama.
There's nothing funny about Zionism, but that article is more fun than a barrel of monkeys, Neocons, or Shabbos Goys.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Mar 25 2014 15:38 utc | 244

Hoarsewhisperer #244 Will check out that article but yes to what you said. Atzmon categorically rejects Jewish supremacy; that makes him anti-supremacist, not anti Jewish. And I believe someone here pointed out a while back that Angry Arab is a CIA asset, so you have to take what he says with a grain of salt anyhow.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 25 2014 15:54 utc | 245

Nora;
Thank you for taking the time to answer.
I would like to clarify a few points:
a) I don't necessarily disagree with Ms. Weir's 'facts'. As you yourself alluded to, it is my opinion/conclusions which differ from what she insinuates.

b) I don't think that it only takes $5000 to buy the cooperation of a congressman, perhaps you misunderstood what I meant by buying a congressman. Had it been so cheap, any two or three of us could sell their houses and just get the whole congress to move along the radical left, stop the support for zionism and Israel and stop subverting independent governments (eg. Venezuela etc. etc. etc.)
Congressmen are for sale, but not for that cheap! Buying/controlling state apparatus is very expensive, expensive enough to be affordable by ONLY the top 1% (or even a fraction of that) and not by the general public. Buying the congress is a luxury that only the top 1% can afford. Otherwise congress would have been people's congress not by vote but by the cheap price affordable to all!

c) Necons look for US *global* hegemony. They want the ability to change regimes with complete freedom and absolute impunity. This *global* attitude (once again it is a global attitude, it is not peculiar to the middle east) when it comes to the region of the middle east requires the hegemony of Israel. The hegemony of Israel as the guard dog for the Western imperialism in the middle east is absolutely necessary. That is *IF* the end goal is the US hegemony. And I don't see how it is non-beneficial to the top 1% that US would have an absolute hegemony in the middle east. Remember over 60% of the worlds proven oil reserves are in this region, he who controls ME pretty much holds all the energy consuming countries by their balls. US empire, ever since it replaced the British Empire as the center of the capitalist world and the enforcer of the dictates of the global capital, has been ripping the enormous benefits of its hegemony in the middle east, from the soaring profits of its energy and oil corporations to the supernumerary profits of its arms industry (which exports absolutely useless and extremely expensive military junk to the middle eastern countries) and all other sectors of its industry. Effectively through crushing the Arab Nationalism in the 50's and 60's, US imperialism very successfully managed to destroy any hope for a national economic development plan in the region of middle east and created oil based "cash cows" which produce ONLY AND ONLY crude oil (at the cheapest price possible) and import EVERYTHING ELSE FROM THE WEST. This is exactly the colonial economic structure and it is extremely profitable to the Western colonizers.
And Israel was an invaluable instrument in that project! It was through Israel that they managed to crush the Arab Nationalism!

d) Israel is dependent for its very existence on the absolute US hegemony in the Middle East. Without US hegemony in the middle east Israel will not last for more than a year. It would have been finished in 1973 had it not been for the direct intervention of the USA. The strategic security requirements of Israel has not changed, it still is very dependent on US supremacy in the middle east (and that makes it an invaluable ally for USA, for there is no better an ally than one whose very existence is contingent on your supremacy!). Therefore to speak as if Israel had some interests conflicting with the continued US hegemony in the middle east is wrong in my opinion.

e) You still have not explained how you think that support for Israel has 'affected' (harmed or benefited) the economic interests of the top 1%? If the support for Israel has benefited the top 1% (as I argued in item (c) above) then why do you think: " ...marching in a direction *thought by Zionists to be* advantageous to Israel while not at all to the benefit of the US? Why yes, yes it is. "? If it has not benefited the economic interests of the top 1% then please show me where it has harmed it?
One of the most important components of "stacking the deck" is the control over the US foreign policy! It is through US hegemony that the top 1% guarantees its continued profit. How can a small special interest group be in control of the US foreign policies and guide it towards a direction beneficial to Israel and NOT to the benefit of the top 1% in USA and we still talk about the "stacking of the deck" by the top 1%??

Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Mar 25 2014 16:44 utc | 246

pirouz_2,

I know the actual payments, I've seen them listed but what I don't know is the exact mechanism, say, Likudniks and AIPAC have over the Republican and Democratic Party leadership. It is obviously substantial but a VERY large part of that is based on fear of an outside-funded opposition candidate taking over one's previously-cushy berth. So there's a threat there -- it certainly happened to all the people I listed -- and in many cases that's just enough. It doesn't have to cost a lot, it really doesn't. And the 1% function through well-oiled lobbies and a whole network of bribes that used to be expressly forbidden; AIPAC is one, but there are tons and tons of others. It's just that AIPAC is and remains the largest.

Also, this point is semi-moot now that Israel and KSA are apparently working in tandem but if there really is in-fighting going on between the various Gulf States, etc., no, our real interest there is oil and for at least a while Israel was an impediment to same. Now, if KSA oil is as depleted as has been claimed, our real interests are elsewhere and Israel may be a hindrance, maybe not, I honestly don't know.

I can't make any strong claims one way or the other about what's going on now vis-a-vis oil or the 1%, but I have deeply resented for 45 years and counting my hard-earned tax dollars supporting Israel's ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. And yes, I know that's how this country began and they only copied it: that's precisely how I began to see Israel as something other than "making flowers bloom in the desert." It was wrong then, it is wrong now.

Posted by: Nora | Mar 25 2014 17:19 utc | 247

Nora;

Thank you very much for your thoughtful answer. Looking forward to read all your comments.

Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Mar 25 2014 17:31 utc | 248

pirouz_2,

Thank you and likewise!

Posted by: Nora | Mar 25 2014 17:54 utc | 249

Atzmon categorically rejects Jewish supremacy; that makes him anti-supremacist, not anti Jewish.
Posted by: Nora | Mar 25, 2014 11:54:47 AM | 245

That is wrong, Nora.
And please refrain from trying to put words in Atzmon's, or my, mouth.

Atzmon has rejected Judaism because, in his opinion as an ex-Jew, it cannot be separated from Zionism in any practical, meaningful, or honest, way.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Mar 26 2014 4:53 utc | 250

See link.

Posted by: Oui | Mar 29 2014 17:38 utc | 252

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