Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 20, 2014

Ukraine: White House Is "Outraged By Images"

Anti-government protesters aim their weapons during clashes with riot police at Independence Square in Kiev February 18, 2014.  (Vasily Fedosenko)

The White House - Office of the Press Secretary

We are outraged by the images of Ukrainian security forces firing automatic weapons on their own people. We urge President Yanukovych to immediately withdraw his security forces from downtown Kyiv and to respect the right of peaceful protest, ...

One wonders what pictures the White House is looking at? Well, of course the real pictures ain't so helpful in pushing for "regime change".

More "outrageous" pictures below the fold ...

(Pics taken from this thread)

Posted by b on February 20, 2014 at 11:50 AM | Permalink

Comments
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How come only a few realize whats going on? Like us here? Are people too stupid nowadays to understand?

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 20, 2014 12:09:00 PM | 1

What's foolish about Obama and his administration sticking to the "peaceful protester" playbook is that it assumes that we reside in a world where access to information is completely controlled.

I know yesterday JSorrentine reported that comments on the NYT were discouraging to read. But I found when I perused them last night that the comments garnering the most "likes" were those sensibly calling bullshit on the whole U.S. position.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Feb 20, 2014 12:14:59 PM | 2

Mostly they just follow the official news briefs from the MSM with the officially approved side of the history. The amount of people bothering to consider other sources or that what passes as news is just propaganda is small. And then they just consider the 'other side' (the resistance) as worse than 'our side' (western empire).

Posted by: ThePaper | Feb 20, 2014 12:17:35 PM | 3

How come only a few realize whats going on?>/I>

Reading through comments on German news sites the ones highly favored ALL realize what is really going on. It usually takes some two to three days until the critical voices in the comments change the propaganda slant in the reporting above the fold.

Posted by: b | Feb 20, 2014 12:26:00 PM | 4

@ Anon

How come only a few realize whats going on?

As Mike said plenty of people see through the Corporate Media. For a good perspective look at the Syria case. The first time in history a British parliament rejected a PM trying to go to war. Followed by public pressure forcing Obama to back down.

Of course most people have neither the interest in foreign affairs, or the time to do detailed research into things like Ukraine. This blog is very much specialised for people with an interest tracking the day-to-day movements (hell how much people on the street in the US or EU do you think could name the Russian foreign minister?). But luckily most people can smell something rotten even if they haven't been paying close attention.

The majority of the public aren't experts of this, but at least majorities in the US and EU think we shouldn't get involved in countries that aren't our business.

Posted by: Colm O' Toole | Feb 20, 2014 12:34:25 PM | 5

@2

What's foolish about Obama and his administration sticking to the "peaceful protester" playbook is that it assumes that we reside in a world where access to information is completely controlled.

While the reading responses in the NYT etc were getting better, it shows more how powerful the American propaganda system is in that people don't AUTOMATICALLY reject this same horsesh!te narrative "playbook" that is in its - at least - 7th iteration this decade. They still first trust what Obama or any official says no matter how many innocent people have been needlessly murdered and maimed. Time and again.

Obviously, the American war criminal propagandists have very accurate statistics on public opinion regarding certain issues, how to affect changes in said opinion and how much support is needed for a given subject. The WH etc sticking to their obvious horseshite I'm sure is calculated to keep roped in a certain % of citizens, thus the necessity of blatantly lying.

The largest concern for everyone involved in any of this is what happens when the propaganda stops working b/c it will and it will happen quickly.

For example, the nonsense hasbara horseshite that has been incessantly coming out of the mouths of Zionist traitors for decades is beginning to fail in the US and the hasbarists are finding out rather quickly this lesson:

One day it works, the next it doesn't.

These psychotic war criminals have a history of false flag attacks - both foreign and domestic - and the level of Spectacle needs to keep being upped to get on the radar of the common person so everyone should be ready.

Klitschko taking a bullet would be a clever touch - as the Americans have stated they don't need his ass - but even that might not be enough.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Feb 20, 2014 12:56:19 PM | 6

Finally some good analysis starts to appear in the German press: Chess in a Minefield: The Global Implications of the Ukraine Conflict

Brzezinski would love to have put Moscow in checkmate. In his book "The Grand Chessboard," he writes that without Ukraine, Russia "would become predominantly an Asian imperial state" at risk of being drawn into conflicts in Central Asia. But if Moscow were able to gain control of Ukraine and its resources, Brzezinski wrote, the Russian Federation would be a "powerful imperial state." He saw danger in a potential "German-Russian collusion" and in the possibility of an agreement between Europe and Russia with the goal of pushing America out of the region.

Essentially, Brzezinski's point of view is one that guides American strategy to this day: The US wants to keep Russia as far away as possible. If the Europeans get involved in Ukraine and harm their relations with Moscow, that is fine with Washington.

Indeed, US Deputy Foreign Minister Victoria Nuland's infamous "Fuck the EU" gaffe, can hardly be seen as a mistake. Rather it is a logical, if somewhat vulgar, expression of America's geopolitical stance.

Posted by: b | Feb 20, 2014 12:56:31 PM | 7

How come only a few realize whats going on?

Because Propaganda isn't simply lies. It's complex and based on volumes of scientific research, mainly in the fields of sociology, antropology and psychology.

One factor, for instance, it heavily relies on is, in fact, a smart combination of two factors:
- Most primates' brain tends to first roughly classify external information and to then (subconsiously) decide whether it merits more attention or processing or not. This is, so to speak, a modern version for intelligent species of the primordial instinct to prioritize for survival.

- Most primates living within social groups have a quite strong "we" (vs. others) instinct.

One way to recognize zusa for what it is is provided by them having their flag on pretty everything that doesn' run away fast enough. It is, for instance, an everyday normality to have the zusa flag on any kind of professional cloths; not only policemen but even mechanics, bakers, just everywhere.
This isn't simply love for ones nation but it has a function and is quite powerful in forming a strong "we".

A major problem of the "we" is: Who defines and controls it? Who, for instance, defines what "we" feel and think about another country, about a form of government, or whether "we" prefer to discuss problems or rather exclude/expell or even kill anyone thinking differently?

To put it somewhat simplified: If any system succeeds in establishing "positive" and "negative" lead values and priorities - and - a strong "we", the game is pretty much over and lost by the masses/won by the handlers.

Speaking of this it should be noted that zusa politicians aren't simply lying when they stress "democracy" and "inalienable basic rights" before going to war or mass murdering "others" (not "we"). Oh no! It's an integral and very important part of a "propaganda formula" almost aking to witchcraft; it's a re-establishment, psychologicalrapport, and reinforcement of the "we" - well noted in a dangerous (or hyped to be dangerous) situation, that is, in exactly the optimal psycho mode for primates. Because "we" protects, albeit at the price of subduing oneself under it; one doesn't need to think, that is handled by the "we".

In short, reading or watching on TV that "they" (who are markedly not "we") did this or that - opposed to our "we" values will with a high probability just be put aside as "Yeah that fits "them"; they have bad (not "our") values anyway" and "OK, pattern recognized ("damn repressive undemocratic communists!"), no need for further analysis".

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 20, 2014 1:03:17 PM | 8


Colm O' Toole & Mr. Pragma

Thanks for your inputs I think you are right and thats whats scares me - that most people are ignorants. After all we all have been ignorants at first but a few (like us here) have taken the step to question what one hear/view in media. Most people dont, thats very tragic.

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 20, 2014 1:10:09 PM | 9

Obama=3& 4th Bush/Cheney terms=2nd consecutive failed US Presidency.

Posted by: stephen | Feb 20, 2014 1:14:56 PM | 10

"The amount of people bothering to consider other sources or that what passes as news is just propaganda is small. And then they just consider the 'other side' (the resistance) as worse than 'our side' (western empire)."@3
Isn't this always the way?
The whole system depends upon the apathy of the masses and their uncritical acceptance of the ruling class's ideology. The question is how these same masses are woken up to the obvious and barefaced lying of their rulers, and how they react to it.

My view is that it is a complex process. Posts like B's and sources of information like the MoA play an important part in exposing the way in which the 1% and their tools carry out the propaganda that is vital to them. But the real problems that the system faces are its own contradictions.

It is certainly true that the American people appear to be suckers for the kind of propaganda that the White House churns out. More alarming perhaps is the fact that the fabled credulity of the Cold War indoctrinated, racially divided, economically privileged American populace has, with American culture, spread over Europe as well, where the old working class institutions, the Communist and left socialist parties, the Cooperatives and the Unions, in which a critical understanding of capitalist society was nourished, have been overwhelmed and Zombified.

But the reality is that the current system, though its ideologists deny it, is in real and deepening crisis.

There has never been such a crisis before: the economy is thoroughly purged of non-capitalist elements, those refuges of subsistence for unemployed and "surplus" labour which formerly existed. At the same time millions of people require basic support to save them from famine. This is the underlying problem: increasingly significant proportions of the population are declining into real, not merely relative, poverty: starvation and homelessness are increasing, the number of beggars in rags is growing.

And the system, for ideological reasons as much as anything, cannot bring itself to make the relatively small investment needed to mitigate the worst of these symptoms. It has painted itself into a fiscal and theoretical corner: it dare not tax the wealthy and it cannot confess that poverty is the inevitable product of the capitalist system.

On the other hand as the Four Horsemen approach, and the "middle class" clearly descends into poverty, with all its implications, psychological and social as well as economic, the luxury of apathy is eroded if only because the Capitalist religion, the all pervading ideology of which approving of Obama's Foreign Policy is an important metric, tells people that they are at fault if they are poor, they are to blame if they have no home, it is their fault if nobody chooses to employ them.

Of course, such is the sado-masochistic character of our culture, this is often welcome news to the victims themselves: there is an inclination to embrace the idea that, having been singled out for punishment by the system, the individual can, by extraordinary efforts, including that submission which The Saker rightly identifies, and self sacrifice there will always be a way out. Prisons, after all need guards. Famines call for burial details and gravediggers.

But in the end, and long before the system can repair itself, reality forces its way into popular consciousness. It becomes impossible to deny that capitalism is a form of cannibalism, that the inmates of the White House, belching out lies and enveloping the world in smokescreens , are actually taking a share of the food that babies in working class homes are being deprived of. They live in luxury because half the population lives in penury. They have never a care in the world because, for most people, most nights are sleepless as they worry about bills, mortgages, fuel, clothing, food, transport and other necessities.

And that is when nothing the White House spokeswoman tells them rings true and every enemy of the Empire appears to be a potential ally.

I should add, of course, that I have touched upon merely one minor aspect of the crisis of capitalism of which climate change and environmental degradation are also aspects. Fukushima and the poisoned waters of Carolina and Virginia are the consequences of capitalism, as are the storms afflicting Europe and the thirty six days below zero we just experienced in southern Ontario. It is a unique feature of capitalism that it devours the planet, not in a cycle of renewal and harvest but in absolute terms.

Posted by: bevin | Feb 20, 2014 1:20:10 PM | 11

Russia is acting quite undecisevly, at least in her public stance. Ukraine's leadership, unlike the Syrian one's, is looking weak right now. The opposition is unorganized and unable to foment any kind of successful armed insurrection, unless it gives the direction of the movement to the most extreme right-wing militant of its forces, kind of like what happened in Syria. As someone put it rightly here, maybe the leak of the "F" word, represented as a lapse by Americans, was both deliberate and a crude representation of the US current policy. The real political question is: which direction Europe, but mostly Germany, will choose, chaos in her periphery or accomodation with Russia. For that reason alone the latter needs to act more assertively in public.

Posted by: ATH | Feb 20, 2014 1:38:47 PM | 12

ATH (12)

Russia is no sales organization and has nothing to sell nor to do this or that to attract clients. Kindly keep this in mind and also that both Russia and Ukraine are souvereign states.

Russia is acting quite undecisevly, at least in her public stance.

You seem to be confused by criminal zusa/zeu spin.

First one has to ask why Russia - or any country other than Ukraine, for that matter - has to act decisively? After all, what's happening in Ukraine is *their* issue und theirs alone.
Second - and only concerning a) *illegal* western involvement and terrorism sponsoring and b) Ukraines urgend need for fiancial support - Russia *did* act decisively. Ad a) they condemned the criminal foreign involvement and terrorism sponsoring by zusa/zeu, ad b) they - and only they - offered tangible help by transferring considerable amounts of funds to Ukraine.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 20, 2014 1:59:06 PM | 13

'I am a Ukrainian' Video Exposed As Kony-Style Scam (video explaining who is behind the "I am a Ukrainian' fraud)

Posted by: b | Feb 20, 2014 2:19:18 PM | 14

12) Plan B. presumably is to split Ukraine. Ukrainian "nationalist" West would be a huge embarassment for "the West".
The US has promised Ukrainian "freedom fighters" what the EU is supposed to keep.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 20, 2014 2:21:27 PM | 15

@Mr. Pragma

Both Russia and Ukraine are sovereign, correct. And the law, be it internal or international, are on their side. But we are not talking about normal business here where laws and regulations are prime. This is a pretty fluid political situation and things can go any way really quikcly. Unlike the opinion you expressed in the previous trend, I don't think the future of Ukraine is indifferent to Russia.

Some wetern strategists are claiming that Ukraine solidly embedded to the Europe will relegate Russia to a status of a solely Asian power, distancing her, maybe definitely, from Europe and rekindling the rivalrity with the other Asian power.

The fact that both the oppostion and the leadership in Ukraine are inherently weak make me predict that a civil war is an outcome not disliked by the US.

For the reason I explained above Germany, the strongest continental country and the engine of Europe, is, in this scenario, the weakest political link in Europe, Russia needs to act assertively to tip the balance over there in her favor.

Posted by: ATH | Feb 20, 2014 2:24:20 PM | 16

> also previous > “Ukr. is fighting fascists”

There are important demos, some violent, taking place right now, or very recently:

> In Bahrein (not covered by the W media):

http://tinyurl.com/qjqtk7d

> In Bosnia:

http://tinyurl.com/psjjc8t

a week ago

http://www.dw.de/bosnia-protests-to-continue/g-17429490

The Bosnia demos are interesting because they are anti-Gov and anti-ethnic etc. division. The WaPo seems to get the title partly right:

http://tinyurl.com/q8zr8wl

Then there is Thailand, yet another story.

And more..

Naturally, French “days of rage” are just dismissed as against gay marriage, as anti-semitic of what not. The media does not report the burnt cars, destruction, outrages, etc.

Similar images from all of them could be posted.

There are many commonalities in these protests. None of them have anything much to do with fascism as a political doctrine.

Of course, once the street fighting gets hard or tough, those who can / want to intervene with violence, arms, do so, playing the controlling, violent, domineering cards. They may be funded, supported, stooges. Opportunistic, authoritarian, often without any clear aim.

Posted by: Noirette | Feb 20, 2014 2:30:28 PM | 17

17) Yes, and depending on who is fighting whom for what reason, I sympathize or I don't.

The "freedom fighters" in Ukraine happen to be fascists.

More on the role the EU is supposed to play

Europe and the U.S. are now, quite obviously, playing catch up. Sestanovich told U.S. radio interviewer Hugh Hewitt Wednesday that the E.U. would be well advised to put its own sack of money on the table to convey seriousness, and counter Putin.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 20, 2014 2:56:44 PM | 18

Browsing western thinktanks right now really show the true imperialist dreams people in EU and US have.
What the H*ll is going on?!

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 20, 2014 3:03:50 PM | 19

Looks like Mr.Pragma took the responsibility to represent all the Russia in here-)

Not that I like to argue Mr.Pragma but just to share my feeling, which are shared by dozens of ppl at least @ my workplace in Moscow.

All this sucks. We do mourn the victims which are basically of the same culture as we are, many have relatives in Kiev. The reason for that though is that Yanukovich sucks. As the matter of fact, he had no choice as to enforce some kind of *harsh* law to enforce the law at all in a country that has the same economy problems as Russia - but no oil. He failed. And now we have the vultures - US/Germany/Poland. They don't come to finance nazi trash in healthy societies - they come only to get the carrion.

Ukraine is just a "failed state" as it had to be from 1991. Hate to saying it - living to close.

Posted by: Sergey | Feb 20, 2014 3:23:42 PM | 20

@sergey

It is one thing to express your personal feelings and another to try to understand the situation. You are kind of mixing the two but really avoiding the objective analysis: why Ukraine is a "failed state" ? or what Russia should do to protect her own strategic interests ?

Posted by: ATH | Feb 20, 2014 3:32:42 PM | 21

19/20 For some reasons this Dutch foreign minister Timmermanns quote is in German media only ;-))

EU einigt sich auf Sanktionen: Die EU hat sich nach Angaben der italienischen Außenministerin Emma Bonino auf Strafmaßnahmen gegen Personen geeinigt, die für die Gewalttaten in Kiew verantwortlich sind. Vorgesehen ist demnach, Visasperren zu verhängen und Guthaben einzufrieren. Bereits am Nachmittag war allerdings klar geworden, dass noch keine Liste mit konkreten Personen vorliegt. "Wir müssen erst einmal feststellen, wer wirklich für die Gewalt in Kiew verantwortlich ist", sagte der niederländische Außenminister Frans Timmermans. Es sei klar, dass Menschen von Regierungstruppen getötet worden seien. "Aber es ist auch klar, dass es auch auf Seiten der Opposition kleine radikale Gruppen gibt, die für exzessive Gewalt verantwortlich sind."

Translation: EU agrees to sanction Ukraine. In the afternoon already it became clear that there is no list with the people to be sanctioned. "We first have to find out who is responsible for violence in Kiew" Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans said. It was clear that people had been killed by government troops "but it is also clear that on the side of the opposition there are small radical groups responsible for excessive violence."

Posted by: somebody | Feb 20, 2014 3:40:32 PM | 22

@ATH

> It is one thing to express your personal feelings and another to try to understand the situation.
I don't mix.
I did express my feelings.
As for understanding the situation - I do admit I don't have one. Actually I believe no one really has.

As for Russia protecting its interest, Russian government is trying to do smth now - they send Lukin as an envoy today. For me it looks wise since Lukin is very "liberal" and known for its critics of Russia's system while keeping hist fight legal.

Personally I think it's just too late. Ukraine is degrading. I would not argue for that but mb the split is the best option. The question is "who owns the Kiev" then.

Posted by: Sergey | Feb 20, 2014 3:44:54 PM | 23

somebody

Lets see if EU sanction their nazi friends in Svoboda (to name one).

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 20, 2014 3:47:45 PM | 24

b (14)

Thanks for the link. Here is another link to the same guy addressing the Ukrainian situation and riots in a more general way. -> KIEV RIOTS - The Truth About The Ukraine Crisis.


ATH (16)

For start, not "the Ukraine" but, if at all, the western and northern part of Ukraine might "fall" to the west.
But even then one needs to see the bigger context.

Those who want to "get" the Ukraine for themselves do not at all want Ukraine nor could they afford it. Second, the western regime, i.e. zusa/zeu/zato is basically broken. Whether they do or do not succeed in bringing Ukraine under their control is of a rather temporary significance anyway.

As for Germany, my view is also quite different from yours. Although looking from a zeu perspective it might seem that Russia must do this or that to please, to convince or to be attractive for zeu, that's actually delusional bullshit.

zeu is linked to (or forced to stay within the realm of?) zusa/zato, which basically translates to being linked to a - in pretty every dimension incl. economically - staggeringly broken ex-empire.
The sad truth is that zusa tries to vampirize zeu for what little life it has left to survive somewhat longer. Or, to put it more bluntly: If zusa and zeu want to survive they will necessarily need to f*ck and fight each other. And that's what's happening behind the "we are friends" smiles as the nuland leaks shows.

Factually zeu is *not* a souvereign entity but merely a zusa colony with some limited freedom. In order to survive zeu must break free from zusa.

Russia, on the other hand, has everything it needs to implement its potential and to grow into Eurasias most powerful nation, with zeu, without zeu, and even against zeu if needed. Russia has about double the number of citizens of Germany, zeus biggest country (in numbers of citizens), it has vast resources - and know how - and it has powerful friends and is a major power in very promising (and already mighty) groups like BRICS and SCO.

To put it simply: Germany *will* end up seeking, desiring, and politely asking for a strong and friendly partnership with Russia. And so will (and already are) some other zeu members.

In case you didn't get it, Germany just recently *did* some steps to enhance their relationship with Russia, for instance, by cutting out their parliamentary in charge of German-Russian relation Schocke(something; I forgot his name, he was an ass*ole anyway) and replacing it with one who has a positive track record re. Russia. Add to this the fact that more and more German companies and economic and industrial associations are begging and pushing the German government to considerably enhance the relation and cooperation with Russia.
Similarly, Germany is often critizised (by zusa) for being "too friendly" with Russia.

Last but least do not forget the context within which all this takes place: Germany is a mere colony of zusa and still an occupation zone. Considering that it becomes clear how strongly Germany is drawn towards Russia (as well as it can still being sth. like a POW of zusa).

I'm so clear and even blunt for a reason: It's about time and it's very very positive that Russia and Putin do not any longer dance to the tunes of zusa/zeu. zusa/zeu play games in Ukraine? Well, that doesn't mean that Russia must respond, and even less so according to a set of rules dictated by zusa/zeu. And, just btw., Ukraine *is* a lousy and troublesome country and Yanukovich *is* an incompetent ass*le with brains or a spine.
Russia is in a position to stay cool and observe - and to hit with incredible force if that would be needed.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 20, 2014 3:49:03 PM | 25

@Mr. Pragma

Are you claiming the same position regarding Georgia and the Ossetia-Abkhazia issue? Should Russia have been hands off there too ? if not, waht's the difference ?

Posted by: ATH | Feb 20, 2014 4:00:07 PM | 26

Sergey (20)

As you might notice, in particular in the last part of my last post, we are not that much apart ;)

Am I blindly defending Russia and speaking for it?

Not really. I see - and you will confirm that - that there are still many problems. Corruption, to name a major one.
My major impetus is to counter the impertinent zusa dictated and brainwashed "criticism" of Russia as if Russia and Putin were all and always evil or as if Russia was a third class country at the mercy of zusa, germany, or others. What disturbes me most is that, so I think, most of the anti-Russian comments are not even based in hate but in lack of correct information and in the western world being widely brainwashed.

I'm sorry for a gross lack of feelings for the terrorists in Ukraine. As far as I'm concerned they are cheap whores who sell out themselves and their country and who commit acts of terrorism.

One of my major grievances against them is that they created a situation were normal citizens can not speak out their - often justified - criticism; both because they risk getting summarized together with the terrorists and because they risk getting beaten up or even shot by the terrorists.


Ceterum censeo israel americanamque delenda esse.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 20, 2014 4:00:13 PM | 27

ATH (26)

That was then, now is now, and Ukraine is not georgia.

Then Russia was weaker and zusa still stronger. Then the illegal whore "government" of g. militarily attacked selectively the part of the country that happened to be pro-Russia.
As far as I know, Yanukovich did not attack militarily (nor otherwise) the pro-Russian regions.
ass-willy was a known whore of zato, the Ukrainian government, however, was attacked and terrorized for *not* blindly and unconditionally signing up to the wannabe zeu empire.

Maybe those remarks can help you in spotting the nonsensicality of your attempt to put those two very different situations next to each other implying they are about equal.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 20, 2014 4:13:53 PM | 28

Since EU dont sanctions the cop killers, does it mean its ok to kill cops in EU states?

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 20, 2014 4:19:12 PM | 29

@27

>>> I'm sorry for a gross lack of feelings for the terrorists in Ukraine. As far as I'm concerned they are cheap whores who sell out themselves and their country and who commit acts of terrorism.

Here's the point we're kind of diverge.

As I see it, they have thousands of ppl there in Maidan. A few hundreds are exactly of those type you described and they do force the fascist coup. All the rest are just a ppl who is not happy with the current politics. I guess most are just stupid but it doesn't make a real difference - these are exactly the ppl killed by snipers.

An idiot becomes dead from fascist sniper from the back - not the best society health description.

Posted by: Sergey | Feb 20, 2014 4:26:52 PM | 30

Btw, Mr Pragma,

To me your comments look a bit of too much. But then I think I would react the same if I read the news from western media.

Fortunately, I read them only on the occasion to make sure they still suck.

Posted by: Sergey | Feb 20, 2014 4:31:10 PM | 31

@pragma

"Maybe those remarks can help you in spotting the nonsensicality of your attempt to put those two very different situations next to each other implying they are about equal."

Those are 2 different events sure, but both had the same meanings: strategically weakening Russia by trying to cut her off from her access to georgraphic locations that were historically quite important for her. Your reply didn't answer why in one case Russia should forcefully defend her strategic interests and not in the other. it seems to me that you adhere more to what Putin does (which I personnally believe are MOST of the time pretty intelligent) rather than what the interests of Russia are.

Posted by: ATH | Feb 20, 2014 4:34:31 PM | 32

24) I don't think they want to sanction anybody. They are just under US pressure.

By sanctioning oligarchs Europe is shooting itself in its foot. Who will fund European football clubs after this :-))?

The "making Ukrainian fascists acceptable" is quite an embarrassement.

This here is the same guy

Following the conviction and sentencing of the death camp guard John Demjanjuk to five years of jail for his role as an accessory to the murder of 27,900 people at the Sobibór death camp, Tiahnybok traveled to Germany and met up with Demjanjuk’s lawyer, Ulrich Busch, presenting the death camp guard as a hero, a victim of persecution, who is “fighting for truth” (“Oleh Tiahnybok iz dvodennym vizytomvidvidav Nimechynu,” 2010).

and
The opposition leaders Arseniy Yatseniuk (Batkivschyna), Vitali Klitschko (UDAR), and Oleh Tiahnybok (Freedom) have met with the foreign ministers Frank-Walter Steinmeier of Germany, Laurent Fabius of France and Radoslaw Sikorski of Poland.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 20, 2014 4:46:30 PM | 33

This is my place for solid information. I have passed this site on to many friends and workmates. I have been warned (I work for the U.S. Navy) by some that this will put me under the microscope so I type from home. My message to USA and EU would simply be 'Keep your hands to yourself and for GOD's sake don't use your Arms'. This scene there could get really bad real fast. Syria 2.0 it appears to me at this point.

Posted by: Michael Lee Shirey | Feb 20, 2014 4:47:17 PM | 34

Sergey (30 & 31)

I understand your point and I support it, if from a somewhat different perspective.
I also see, however, that innocent normal protesters - which are to be tolerated! - are free to decide whether they avoid a highly criminalized environment or enter it, albeit with no bad intent, and such become part of it.

Similarly I miss one question concerning the innocent normal protesters, namely why they do not establish anti-terrorist demonstrations, why they do not undertake powerful (in terms of numbers) attempts to establish their own "clean" and legal protests rather than mingling with terrorists?

I understand that by now it's maybe no longer possible; One has to ask, however, what those innocent protesters kept from keeping the protests peaceful while that pas still possible.

And I do understand that situations like this have their own dynamics. That, however, can not be put in favour of one direction only.

As for the western press you are right. Unfortunately though, I have learned and experienced again and again that one must not trust one source only but that one must get informations from all sides.
There are two good knows, though:
- when putting those different views next to each other, no matter whether none, one or both are (to some degree) propaganda, the propaganda quickly becomes visible and often even cancel each other out.
- The Russian "state media" and "Kreml friendly" media are surprisingly unbiased (at least compared to the international average). I think that's no coincidence as Putin also often almost confrontingly goes the way of being honest (up to the point where some feel unhappy). And indeed this is a powerful strategy against an opponent which to an extreme degree keeps his "empire" and coalitions together by hardly more than gross lies and propaganda.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 20, 2014 5:33:10 PM | 35

The Ukrainian parliament just voted to withdraw the security forces from the Square?

Wow, that kind of traitorous sh!te is reminiscent of the whores in my own Zionist assembly, the US Congress.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Feb 20, 2014 5:34:30 PM | 36

ATH (32)

I honestly tried to discuss the matter with you. I am, however, not ready to play ping-pong games with you.
Nor do I need - or want - to convince you of anything. Feel free to consider president Putin and Russia to be the incarnation of evil or to believe that Russia must dance to every tune (usually just farting) zusa/zeu/zato produce if that satisfies you.

Have a nice evening.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 20, 2014 5:39:21 PM | 37

Adding:

Yesterday I read on Yatsenyuk's wikipedia page that he - along with his family - was a freaking scientologist f*cknut.

Why, look, that part's been edited away since I read it yesterday.

Here's the part that was deleted since yesterday:

It is reported that Yatsenyuk graduated from the Kiev school of Dianetics and joined the Scientology organization in 1998, while working as a consultant for the credit department of Aval Bank. In the same year he signed a contract with the so-called "Sea Organization," the elite structure of the "Church of Scientology." Yatsenyuk is presently a high-ranking member of the sect and has a "level of auditing" called OT-6. His sister, Alina Petrovna Steele (aka Alina Jones), a citizen of the United States, is also connected with the Church of Scientology. Steele is active at the branch of the church in the city of Santa Barbara (USA, California) and she is at a lower level, OT-4, out of a total of 8.

Source (in Russian): "Does the Fighter Against Corruption Belong to a Sect?" by Maxim Terekhov, January 15, 2010

Posted by: JSorrentine | Feb 20, 2014 5:42:12 PM | 38

The White House and the EU have made it clear days ago, that the consider the Euromaidan camp the legitimate government of Ukraine. All that is left for Yanukovych to do is surrender.

The paradox in all this is that the more the West legitimizes the insurgency the more it delegitimizes the Ukrainian nation state. In the end, once the "revolution" has craved out what it can, what is left of Ukraine fill fall into Russia's orbit – to become part of the Eurasian Union or even Russia proper.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Feb 20, 2014 5:50:21 PM | 39

regarding Americans being fooled by propaganda: fewer are than it seems. if it comes from the white house, most people don't believe it. the real purpose of blatant lies appears to be to convince the public that the crimes the gov't is committing are being done because the gov't and its lobbyist cronies believe their own propaganda. some of us know that's not true, either.

if public trust in propaganda were required to do what the US gov't does, so much would be different. the gov't does what it wants no matter what people want, and no matter what people believe, they nearly always disagree with interventions.

Posted by: anon | Feb 20, 2014 5:54:19 PM | 40

Wow, how convenient!!!

A little research and I dug this up on the Scientology News Forum.

Why it looks like everybody's favorite cult was very busy in Kiev - especially since last summer - at "educating" and "raising awareness" of the "human rights abuses" in the Ukraine. Why, they even mention everyone's favorite US-intelligence-fronts Freedom House, Amnesty AND HRW!!! A trifecta! Why, everyone remembers what a GREAT JOB those organizations did on Syria, right?

From the site:

A team of Ukrainian Scientologists have taken on promoting and seeing that human rights is widely taught in their country.

Ukraine, once held in high regard by human rights watchdog groups, has come under fire from Freedom House, Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International in the past several years with evidence of erosion of such basic rights as freedom of assembly and freedom of speech, coupled with allegations of torture and mistreatment of prisoners in police custody.

In light of incursions against basic rights and freedoms, members of the Church of Scientology Mission of Kiev have taken on the task of raising human rights awareness and educating youth, educators and officials on the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Using educational materials created by United for Human Rights and Youth for Human Rights International, Ukraine Scientologists carry out street events and conduct human rights education for students, educators, law enforcement and government officials. The team has conducted more than 100 human rights lectures to thousands of students in some 50 schools and colleges over the last two years and is working with forward-thinking government officials to make this human rights education available through the country’s educational institutions.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Feb 20, 2014 6:00:18 PM | 41

Interesting coverage of Ukraine on Democracy Now this morning with Professor Cohen. This part made me think about Syria:

... What percent are the quasi-fascists of the opposition? Let’s say they’re 5 percent. I think they’re more, but let’s give them the break, 5 percent. But we know from history that when the moderates lose control of the situation, they don’t know what to do. The country descends in chaos. Five percent of a population that’s tough, resolute, ruthless, armed, well funded, and knows what it wants, can make history. We’ve seen it through Europe. We’ve seen it through Asia. This is reality. And where Washington and Brussels are on this issue, they won’t step up and take the responsibility.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, even in most recent history, whether you look at Libya or whether you look at the situation in Syria, where those presidents warned that there were extremist elements inside a broader popular movement that were eventually going to gain control, this seems like a replay in terms of what’s going on here in the Ukraine of a popular movement, but yet a very, very, as you say, right-wing movement—not only a right-wing movement, but a fascist movement with a history. Ukraine has had a history of a fascist movement going back to the days of Nazi Germany.

STEPHEN COHEN: Let’s go to real heresy. Let’s ask a question: Who has been right about interpreting recent events? Let’s go to the Arab Spring. Obama and Washington said this was about democracy now, this is great. Russia said, "Wait a minute. If you destabilize, even if they’re authoritarian leaders in the Middle East, you’re not going to get Thomas Jefferson in power. You’re going to get jihadists. You’re going to get very radical people in power all through the Middle East." Looking back, who was right or wrong about that narrative? Have a look at Egypt. Have a look at Libya. Who was right? Can Russians ever be right about anything?

Now what are the Russians saying about Ukraine? They’re saying what you just said, that the peaceful protesters, as we keep calling them—I think a lot of them have gone home. There were many. By the way, at the beginning, there were hundreds of thousands, tens of thousands, of very decent, liberal, progressive, honorable people in the streets. But they’ve lost control of the situation. That’s the point now. And so, the Russians are saying, "Look, you’re trying to depose Yanukovych, who’s the elected government." Think. If you overthrow—and, by the way, there’s a presidential election in a year. The Russians are saying wait 'til the next election. If you overthrow him—and that's what Washington and Brussels are saying, that he must go—what are you doing to the possibility of democracy not only in Ukraine, but throughout this part of the world? And secondly, who do you think is going to come to power? Please tell us. And we’re silent.

Of course, Cohen is only talking about a country's internal dynamics, without factoring in external pressures and actors. Even so, in the case of Syria, with a population of 22 million, if only 5% of the population, indeed if only 1% of the population, were hardcore Salafists, that would still be a large enough base to provide tens of thousands of Syrian extremists eager to fight to topple the government. And since many of the homegrown extremists had more enthusiasm than experience or skill, that Syrian base has been glad to host foreign fighters with more experience (and weapons).

Posted by: Rusty Pipes | Feb 20, 2014 6:04:00 PM | 42

I also noted in the BBC, coverage of how the conflict is being escalated by faceless rooftop snipers, said to be regime soldiers or pro-government militias. Nothing like faceless snipers shooting at demonstrators abroad to keep a certain Middle Eastern country's abuses out of American MSM headlines.

Posted by: Rusty Pipes | Feb 20, 2014 6:19:54 PM | 43

On BBC news now, they were quite explicit in showing policemen being dragged into ambulances first, as a result of armed demonstrators storming them, before the police started firing back. So there might be some hope for mainstream media after all on this case.

Posted by: Alexander | Feb 20, 2014 6:27:30 PM | 44

Ukrainian Defense Ministry Not Taking Chuck Hagel’s or NATO Supreme Commander Calls?

Hagel has tried to personally convey to Ukrainian Defense Minister Pavel Lebedev the message that the Ukrainian military should refrain from intervening against civilian protesters, Pentagon Press Secretary Rear Admiral John Kirby said today at a Pentagon news conference.

But “so far the Ministry of Defense has been unresponsive to our requests,” Kirby said. “We’ve been trying now for the past several days as the violence escalated to reach the Ministry of Defense.”

He described the ministry’s lack of a responsiveness as “pretty unusual.”

Kirby said Hagel is “deeply troubled” by the violence in Ukraine and “shares the outrage of so many over images of the Ukrainian Ministry of Interior forces firing automatic weapons at their own people.”

Hagel urges the Ukrainian armed forces to continue to refrain from participating in the conflict, Kirby said, “a conflict that can and should be resolved politically.”

Hagel routinely reaches out to counterparts, especially to urge military leaders not to intervene in significant political crises. Over the past year he has spoken dozens of times with Egyptian Field Marshal al Sisi to urge that the Egyptian military continue to adhere to political institutions in the wake of President Morsi’s removal from power, officials said.

Reports indicate the Ukrainian military is protecting military bases and storage facilities and is not involved in the violence against protesters, Kirby said. “We certainly hope that remains the case,” he said.

Hagel last spoke with Lebedev in mid-December as protests began against President Viktor Yanukovich’s decision to forego a trade deal with the European Union in favor of one with Russia.

Since the protests began the Pentagon has had “a consistent concern” that the Ukrainian military could be used to end the protests, Kirby said.

Hagel is not the only senior defense leader unsuccessful in trying to contact the Ukrainian military, though those efforts may have been complicated by President Yanukovich’s dismissal of Ukraine’s top military officer.

NATO Supreme Commander Gen. Phillip Breedlove took to social media on Wednesday as a way of urging the Ukrainian military to not get involved in the violence.

Breedlove tweeted “I am calling upon the new military leadership in Ukraine to open a dialog(ue) with us to bring this situation to a peaceful resolution.”

In another tweet he said, “As NATO’s military commander I ask that responsible leaders avoid the use of military force against the people of Ukraine.”

I think someone is trying to tell you effing idiots something.

Breedlove should get an Instagram account, ffs. Snapchat?

Posted by: JSorrentine | Feb 20, 2014 7:33:06 PM | 45

@NATOSupCom

U no shoot r stooges k? #democracy#freedom#peaceful#protest

@UkeDefMin

O rly? #warcriminals#fascists#mercenaries#scum

Posted by: JSorrentine | Feb 20, 2014 7:40:33 PM | 46

Ukraine capitulates to US demands: surrenders state to terrorist / revolutionaries / protesters / freedom fighters!

Rada condemns use of force causing deaths, bans counter-terrorism operations in Ukraine – Interfax-Ukraine, 23:18 20.02.2014

The Verkhovna Rada, Ukraine's parliament, has condemned the use of force that has led to deaths of people, and banned counter-terrorism operations, which were announced by chiefs of the Security Service of Ukraine, or the SBU.

The enactment was backed by 236 out of the 238 MPs registered in the session hall for voting on Thursday evening.

The parliament "has strongly condemned" the use of force against peaceful citizens, as well as tortures and crimes against humanity, an Interfax-Ukraine correspondent reported.

Lawmakers stress that the SBU, the Interior Ministry and other paramilitary agencies should "immediately stop the use of force against citizens of Ukraine."

The Rada also outlawed counter-terrorism operations that were announced by the SBU and the Counter-Terrorism Center on February 19.

Lawmakers barred chiefs and commanders of interior troops and the Armed Forces of Ukraine, the SBU and other government agencies from carrying out any counter-terrorism operations, as they contravene the Constitution of Ukraine.

The SBU has been tasked to immediately revoke its decisions on such operations.

In keeping with the parliament's enactment, the Interior Ministry should stop blocking roads and bridges, squares and streets in Kyiv and other cities and towns. Besides, the ministry should send all law enforcement officers back to the places of their permanent deployment.

What is more, the Defense Ministry of Ukraine should prohibit the involvement of the country's armed forces in the counter-terrorism operations.

The lawmakers also instructed the Cabinet of Ministers to cancel its decision to restrict entry of vehicles to Kyiv.

The enactment is to become effective since the day of its adoption.

Prepare to see President Yanukovych hanged from a lamp post on Euromaidan square by tomorrow evening.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Feb 20, 2014 7:49:45 PM | 47

Crimean leader said to mull breakaway.

From an earlier article about Crimea just to get political flavor:

Speaker of the Crimean Parliament Vladimir Konstantinov left for Russia to strengthen relations with Russian partners.

In the course of his visit to Moscow, Konstantinov gave interviews to Russian TV channels.

In his interview to “Russia-24”, he told about “extremists and neo-Nazi, who spread the virus across the country”. At the same time, Konstantinov said that Crimea stays a rather stable region of the country:

“Crimea is a stable region. Nevertheless, the whole country is in a political crisis. Leaders of the crisis are the extremists groups but ‘dressed in political causes’. ..This crisis is a neo-Nazi crisis under the portraits of Stepan Bandera and other Nazi collaborators…. This extremism is spreading across the country as a virus. We, in the Crimean autonomy are trying to stop this crisis at the border and not let it crawl into our stable region”.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Feb 20, 2014 7:50:36 PM | 48

Picture of Ukrainian traitors. I hope all of these people celebrating are identified.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Feb 20, 2014 8:01:51 PM | 49

Adding:

So out of 442 occupied seats in the Ukrainian Parliament - 226 needed for a quorum, the traitors scraped together an emergency session and passed this with the vote of 236 out of 238 present.

The VOR article is interesting b/c it doesn't mention that they would be voting on a resolution stripping the security forces at all but on the resignation of Volodymyr Rybak.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Feb 20, 2014 8:27:46 PM | 50

@pragma

"I honestly tried to discuss the matter with you."

I do not think so, which is fine anyway. You are trying to advertise a political line equivalent to the one Putin is conducting in and out of Russia, which is fine again, since he is generally defending Russia's interests against the hegemon (except when he sometimes, like now in the case of Ukraine crisis, sacrifices them to his love of the western capitalism.) That's why all your rhetoric sounds irrelevant and empty. I think you are at the bottom of the barrel here. Everybody in this blog can follow Putin's actions and they are intelligent enough not to need a propagandist for that. Case closed.

Posted by: ATH | Feb 20, 2014 8:41:01 PM | 51

if there was any doubt that these are not peaceful protestors: http://rt.com/news/horrifying-videos-kiev-maidan-901/
as if we didn't know. this is what the US publicly announced to the world that Ukraine should allow to take over its country, and frankly, if I were a policeman there, I'd be out of it!

but 1) is this the face of the US in Ukraine? watch that footage, and listen to Obama, and how do Americans feel about that? really really really bad!

and 2) what do these thugs want? will they get it? which of the US/EU/Nuland leaders do they want in power? do they care? or are they just mercenaries? will they keep fighting until Ukraine is off the charts right/fascist? or will the "west" neutralize them, so to speak?

Posted by: anon | Feb 20, 2014 8:55:34 PM | 52

JSorrentine

Don't worry, that voting is quite meaningless. First, Rybak, the parlament leader, a member of Yanukovichs party, must sign it to become effective.

Secondly, and more importantly, that resolution isn't binding in the sense that it must not contradict the Ukrainian constitution and other high ranking laws.

My personal guess, based in part on the suspicious absence of all but 30 or so of the governing parties members, is that, in fact, this will be - rightfully - taken by the government to mean that, as police forces are not available to crush the terrorists, military forces must be deployed.

Furthermore one should not the typical signs of a surprise attack "law", such as the timing (before the weekend). I assume that Yanukovichs party have used this as test, too, meaning that those parlamentarians of Yanukovichs party who voted with the parlamentarian front of the terrorists, will be regarded as traitors.

Most importantly though, I expect this to be the first step or the trigger for a "solution" that has been decided behind closed doors, namely to split Ukraine. One strong indicator for this is the fact that the Crimean government has clearly discussed (and decided for) splitting and staying with Russia, either as part of Russia or as a country proper, possibly and quite probably with other regions, namely the industrial core of Ukraine.

I personally like this solution because Russia and the peaceful eastern and southern regions get pretty everything they might want while the western and northern part will fall to the eu - who doesn't want them, who can't feed or adequately support them and who will dry them out by long zeu association negotiations and lots of nice talking.

In the end the pro Russian part of Ukraine will go quite well while both, the Ukrainian traitors and zeu will suffer *immense* damage.

Btw. As Sochi approaches its end and as Ukraine is extremely unattractive (for zusa/zeu) as a theater of war, I expect the Syria conflict to escalate rather soon. Obviously zusa isn't capable to give up the superpower status it can't fit anyway with some dignity; Obviously zusa needs to be shown its position the blunt and hard way.

While it's quite early for predictions I'm leaning to the believe that the situation will explode in/around Syria but that - badly surprising zusa - China will make a major move, possibly against Japan, such that zusa will be engaged in two theaters. Those in Europe left with some brains intact (like possibly Germany) will survive relatively well (and become free and souvereign partners of Russia), those with less brains (but longer noses right in zusas *ss) will be quickly and utterly crushed. With some luck zusa and british ships will have the honour to be properly sunk rather than running on a sandbank or against another ship as seems to be their current habit.

If I'm right I'll buy some good champagne and then do what I learned from zamericans as the thing to do with deceased enemies ...


Ceterum censeo israel americanamque delenda esse.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 20, 2014 8:58:07 PM | 53

ATH

Feel free to judge me - without being asked - any way you want.

I'm confident that I can live well with the appreciation I do or do not get here ;)

Welcome.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 20, 2014 9:00:51 PM | 54

@52

Thanks.

And in other news the Ukrainian Observatory for Human Rights - based in Akron, Ohio - has raised the death count of peaceful Ukrainian protestors to 2,000.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Feb 20, 2014 9:18:57 PM | 55

JSorrentine (54)

Pardon me, but while it seems most natural and trustworthy for the "Ukrainian Observatory for Human Rights" to be based in Akron, Ohio, I'd prefer to wait for Mrs. nudelman/nuland to order some more official numbers at Mr. AtYourDisposal ... uhm ... ban ki moon.

Also: While I don't want to seem picky, I find "2000" somewhat low. Sure, as many policemen have been killed (as natural part of peaceful demonstrations) and such the number of policemen available to without any reason whatsoever shoot at molotov-cocktail throwing, killing, and plundering "voices for democracy" is somewhat limited, "2000" as an official number of victims seems somewhat unsatisfactory to describe the immense brutality of the Ukrainian government that negotiated and repeatedly gave in to even insane demands - a classical symptom of cruel brutality!

Let me therefore suggest to alternatively use the numbers of Mr. Greensteen of the "super-duper really mega official giga unbiased Ukrainian Observatory of whatever you please" on the Ceva-i-Ra Atoll of the Fidschi islands. At this moment their official number is "incredibly many and possibly more than 3", which, of course, can be increased as needed.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 20, 2014 9:47:01 PM | 56

@pragma
You are fine overall, just try to be a little bit genuine and original.

Posted by: ATH | Feb 20, 2014 10:02:13 PM | 57

Interesting thread that you linked to, b.

If everyone goes to the last few pages of that thread you'll see that these "peaceful protesters" appear to be deploying anti-tank artillery.

Hmmm, maybe they plan to use them to, oh, I dunno, "distribute" pro-EU propaganda leaflets......

Posted by: Johnboy | Feb 20, 2014 10:30:13 PM | 58

@Mr. Pragma #52

You prefer to see Ukraine divided, Russians in Ukraine prefer to see Ukraine divided, and most likely, Russia prefers to see Ukraine divided. (Preferable with Western Ukraine splitting off in rebellion.)

This looked like the only option left for Ukraine this afternoon. (Most likely through a bloody civil war.)

It is exactly this unavoidable division of Ukraine that the MPs you call traitors rejected. They handed over sovereignty for a promise of territorial integrity. Stupider decisions have been made by well-informed politicians. (And by this I do not mean the 1940 decisions by the Baltic States to adapt socialism and voluntarily join the Soviet Union.)

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Feb 20, 2014 11:02:56 PM | 59

@46 quote "Prepare to see President Yanukovych hanged from a lamp post on Euromaidan square by tomorrow evening."

it sure looks that way at this point.

Posted by: james | Feb 20, 2014 11:47:23 PM | 60

Petri Krohn (58)

If that would be true then they would be immensely stupid (trusting such a guarantee). And just btw. guarantee from whom? From zusa that habitually breaks agreements before the ink is dry? From Russia who has no intention whatsoever to grab Ukrainian territory in the first place? From themselves? From whom?

And btw. it's my preferred solution because after what the terrorists did - and the incapable government, too - any thought about a united Ukraine is a wild dream. The east and south may be saved; They are industrious and peaceful and they have shown that they are capable to play in a team. Furthermore, the western and northern part want towards zeu; well, let them go that way ...

It should also be understood that Ukraines problem isn't Yanukovich. He's merely one incarnation of an underlying problematic structure. Ukraine simply is too "small" (too little nutritous) a cake for all the parties that try to rob and get and control and abuse a chunk of it. Klitchko and the other greedy (for "their" chunk) traitors and wannabes just add yet more parties, namely zusa and zeu.
Sure enough any good solution must be found and implemented by Ukrainians - and not by zusa or zeu (or Russia). That alone is reason enough to sharply condemn the zusa and zeu puppets and to call them traitors.

That whole unworthy and tragic-comic performance since weeks demonstrates and proves the invalidity of a Ukrainian state concept and there are many problems and reasons for it. One major one is to be found in Ukraines geographical position; itself rather insignificant it sometimes desires to be an entity by itself, often accompanied by delusion, and sometimes it desires to find a "home" with one the large blocks - which almost naturally creates a split line through the country.The fact that Ukraine is traditionally, uhm, "blessed" with many jews doesn't help either; it rather adds strongly to the risk of trying to play the two large neighbouring blocks against each other hoping for a smart gain (which pretty much describes how Yanukovich led Ukraine into the current quagmire).

I'm afraid that if you asked the Ukrainians what they want you'd find that (other than some vane common formulas like "democracy") they mostly know what they do *not* want, which unfortunately is pretty exactly what they have since they became a state - and for a reason I might add. The question what they are willing to do for that would show most of them bewildered and speechless (or uttering nonsense like "well, we'd be willing to vote").

However this will end, you will doubtlessly find out that *nobody* wants that country. zusa and zeu simply want to parasitically abuse it for their dirty purposes and Russia would probably accept a (split off) eastern/southern part in some kind of partnership and more out of mercy, decency and civility that out of any kind of territorial or other greed.

As long as Klitchko and the other traitors, go-fors and wannabe profiteers get shot or at least locked away for decades I personally find pretty every outcome acceptable ad be it for a lack of interest in that snakepit. Being at "shooting": Ukraine might immensely profit from simply shooting each and every western politician or other criminal trying to enter their country.

Seriously though: After all there is a reason that zusa and zeu only demanded (and created havoc) while Russia shelled out some billions at a time when Ukraine most urgently needed that help.
May Putin be blessed! He earned it a 100 times.

Ceterum censeo israel americanamque delenda esse.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 21, 2014 12:09:28 AM | 61

Addendum:

- To avoid misunderstandings: Yanukovich is an as*hole, no doubt and he is massively guilty of the current situation, too.

- Funny that nobody seems to be interested in that but: I bet that around 80% - 90% of the zeu-citizens would be wildly opposed to Ukraine becoming a member or even just associated. They are afraid enough of all the cuttings and bruises that had, have and will have to suffer through zeu.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 21, 2014 12:14:42 AM | 62

I had trouble understanding what the US hopes to accomplish by supporting the fascist thugs in Kiev. It seems quite clear that the Ukraine is politically split into those who lean towards Russia and those who lean towards Europe. The orange revolution was a complete failure because there were too many Ukrainians that remained tied to Russia. I suspect that the US and the EU now realize this. It looks like they are now working to split the Ukraine. In this way they will at least win the western half of the country. The new Western Ukraine will happily join the west and join NATO. The US will have won something and that is to move our military that much closer to the Russian border.

At this point I guess the big question is how the Ukraine will be split. I would imagine that the new border will lie along the Dnieper River with those lands north and east of the river, along with Odessa, going to a pro-Russian province. The US and the EU at least win the western provinces. The eastern provinces have little choice but to join with Russia. I doubt that the Putin government will like this outcome but it might be they will not have much choice in the outcome.

Posted by: ToivoS | Feb 21, 2014 12:41:55 AM | 63

62) The conflict is utter stupidity. The EU/NATO are leaning towards Russia, so Ukraine should be safe in between.


Posted by: somebody | Feb 21, 2014 2:37:24 AM | 64

Annoying with those " experts " in mainstream media, that are nothing but propagandists for EU/US/NATO policies.

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 21, 2014 3:58:33 AM | 65

65) Yep. They are now rewriting Ukrainian Fascist Legacy for New Yorkers.

Which is extremely funny in a sad way because the same author Timothy Snyder explained the - opposite - historically correct version in the same New York Review of Books in 2010

The incoming Ukrainian president will have to turn some attention to history, because the outgoing one has just made a hero of a long-dead Ukrainian fascist. By conferring the highest state honor of “Hero of Ukraine” upon Stepan Bandera (1909-1959) on January 22, Viktor Yushchenko provoked protests from the chief rabbi of Ukraine, the president of Poland, and many of his own citizens. It is no wonder. Bandera aimed to make of Ukraine a one-party fascist dictatorship without national minorities. During World War II, his followers killed many Poles and Jews. Why would President Yushchenko, the leader of the democratic Orange Revolution, wish to rehabilitate such a figure? Bandera, who spent years in Polish and Nazi confinement, and died at the hands of the Soviet KGB, is for some Ukrainians a symbol of the struggle for independence during the twentieth century. ... Consistent as the rehabilitation of Bandera might be with the ideological competition of the mid-twentieth century, it makes little ethical sense today. Yushchenko, who praised the recent Kiev court verdict condemning Stalin for genocide, regards as a hero a man whose political program called for ethnic purity and whose followers took part in the ethnic cleansing of Poles and, in some cases, in the Holocaust. Bandera opposed Stalin, but that does not mean that the two men were entirely different. In their struggle for Ukraine, we see the triumph of the principle, common to fascists and communists, that political transformation sanctifies violence. It was precisely this legacy that east European revolutionaries seemed to have overcome in the past thirty years, from the Solidarity movement in Poland of 1980 through the Ukrainian presidential elections of 2005. It was then, during the Orange Revolution, that peaceful demonstrations for free and fair elections brought Yushchenko the presidency. In embracing Bandera as he leaves office, Yushchenko has cast a shadow over his own political legacy.

So for the "democratic" EU in the fight with a "dictatorial" Eurasian Union a coalition with Fascists is ok?

From the memory whole - Jewish German composer Hans Eisler in front of the Mc Carthy committee

Posted by: somebody | Feb 21, 2014 4:29:48 AM | 66

Toivo,

"The orange revolution was a complete failure because there were too many Ukrainians that remained tied to Russia. "

The Orange Revolution was a complete failure because the Oranges, President Yushchenko and Prime Minister Timoshenko, and all the rest, did nothing but fight among themselves. It was such an obvious failure that President Yushchenko got ~5% of the vote when he ran for reelection in 2010.

But Oranges are really tough to educate. No amount of experience in the failure of their policies will persuade them that their notions are erroneous.

An "Orange Ukraine II" would be no different. Oranges are incapable of actually governing.

Posted by: rkka | Feb 21, 2014 4:33:36 AM | 67

63) Western Ukraine will not happily split as the EU will not pay.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 21, 2014 4:45:58 AM | 68

Time to expose the divisions within the opposition. Call early elections and watch them fight for the head of power amongst themselves. Meanwhile, the militant opposition, who will refuse to step back until the President resigns, will be shown for what they are.

Posted by: Pat Bateman | Feb 21, 2014 4:49:29 AM | 69

If Ukraine fall, the EU/US/NATO will do the same with Belarus.

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 21, 2014 5:19:37 AM | 70

70) The issue is if a "neutral, balancing" policy between EU and Russia is possible for Eastern European countries.

This here is a Hillary Clinton quote from December 2012

The US is trying to prevent Russia from recreating a new version of the Soviet Union under the ruse of economic integration, Hillary Clinton warned on Thursday.

“There is a move to re-Sovietise the region,” the US secretary of state told a news conference in Dublin hours before going into a meeting with her Russian counterpart, Sergei Lavrov.

“It’s not going to be called that. It’s going to be called a customs union, it will be called Eurasian Union and all of that,” she said, referring to various iterations of a Moscow-backed plan to deepen economic ties with its neighbours.

“But let’s make no mistake about it. We know what the goal is and we are trying to figure out effective ways to slow down or prevent it.”

Either/or is not in Ukraine's interest. A "nationalist" fascist republic of Lviv won't change that.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 21, 2014 6:30:47 AM | 71

Yeah, thought so.

Ukrainian President Yanukovych agrees early election

Now watch them squabble.

Posted by: Pat Bateman | Feb 21, 2014 6:33:47 AM | 72

72) they insist on him stepping down - that is the only unity they have.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 21, 2014 7:29:42 AM | 73

plus 72) I don't think this can be negotiated any more - the EU will have to talk to Pravy Sector

Posted by: somebody | Feb 21, 2014 7:38:55 AM | 74

73

Which proves they just want power themselves, US/EU call them "freedom fighters"? Yeah right.

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 21, 2014 8:14:03 AM | 75

75) According to German papers it is a deal. I hope for Ukrainians that it is true.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 21, 2014 8:28:57 AM | 76

@ anon no 40

True. Polls of American citizens for the past ten years at least have indicated close to no support for foreign meddling in the affairs of other nations.

Elections may belie that, but electoral participation hovers around 50% of eligible voters and, of course, there is always some inveterate liar such as Obama running as some vague peace candidate.

Posted by: sleepy | Feb 21, 2014 8:59:43 AM | 77

The "brave" (western and northern) Ukrainians have shown that there are lots and lots of cheap traitors and whores among them, that rioters reliably win over peaceful protestors, that they are eagerly ready to use brutal force, and that they are not capable and willing to cooperate in a civilian and democratic manner.

It's simply not important how western/northern Ukraine ends because whatever it will be, will be unstable and riddled with criminals, traitors, whores which talk about peace but live by blackmailing, arm zwisting, shooting and force.

The really funny thing is that precisely what they did/do right now - as willing servants of zusa/zeu - will be used against them by zusa/zeu.

Concerning Belarus: Yes, quite probably it was planned to be next. But no, there it won't work.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 21, 2014 9:34:32 AM | 78

Seems like ukrainian gov. accept whatever for a deal.
Good? I doubt that.
The US, EU, NATO and its terrorists on the streets see it as a weakness.

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 21, 2014 10:10:58 AM | 79

@ somebody 18, point taken, I agree in a way.

Obviously, I would argue that it is not so much to do with fascism, but with opportunistic violence and economic taker-over. The ‘fascists’ (manipulated moreover) imho if successful will immediately turn into freedom-loving, democracy-touting, Western puppets, to illustrate!

===== general comment

Does not mean that some protestors / protests in the Ukr. are not genuine. (That is why I mentioned Bosnia, it is not being stirred up by the CIA etc.)

I’m not at all sure that Ukrainians - a majority or large proportion etc. - would favor Partition in any way. The schisms in the country and its history are evident, but they are magnified, highlighted by an outside ‘eye’ that focusses on divisions, just as was the case in Yugoslavia, for example. Ppl in the Ukr. may not agree with this Western arm-chair analysis.

OK so now there are to be early elections.

Posted by: Noirette | Feb 21, 2014 10:43:48 AM | 80

An agreement that could save lives and undermines the efforts of militants to overthrow the Government by force is a positive development.

Let the will of the majority prevail. I am yet to be convinced that a crowd of thousands in the centre of Kiev represents the opinion of tens of millions across the country.

I am happy to be proven wrong, but will the opposition in the face of defeat? Hardly. Kicking the can down the road comes to mind, before things really come to a head.

Posted by: Pat Bateman | Feb 21, 2014 10:48:24 AM | 81

Pat Bateman

I am not saying you are wrong but why do you think ukrainians support whats going in kiev? Isnt it rather western parts that support this?
And supports what btw?

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 21, 2014 11:00:21 AM | 82

Pat Bateman #81

An agreement that could save lives and undermines the efforts of militants to overthrow the Government by force is a positive development.

You fail to understand the dynamics of a revolution. Any agreement, truce or amnesty law only empowers the revolution. Each such victory encourages more violence and greater demands. The violence will not be over until the revolutionaries have Yanukovych's head on a stake.

This might not work in Greece or on Occupy Wall Street, but in Ukraine there are two external sources of violence keeping the flames alight, the threat of EU sanctions and the threat of NATO intervention / "No-Fly Zone."

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Feb 21, 2014 11:16:57 AM | 83

@Petri Kohn - in Ukraine there are two external sources of violence keeping the flames alight, the threat of EU sanctions and the threat of NATO intervention / "No-Fly Zone."

EU sanctions would not matter. NATO intervention is not realistically possible.

Polish foreign minister: Martial law was a real threat

The Polish foreign minister Radoslaw Sikorski was filmed by ITV News telling a Ukranian protest leader: "If you don't support this [deal] you'll have martial law, you'll have the army. You will all be dead.

The deal (pdf). Don't know yet what to think of it.

Posted by: b | Feb 21, 2014 11:28:25 AM | 84

Petri,

If ZATO couldn't get a no-fly zone in Syria, how could they pull it off in the Ukraine?

Posted by: Ozawa | Feb 21, 2014 11:34:43 AM | 85

84) Tymoschenko will be freed.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 21, 2014 12:04:14 PM | 86

The Economist has completely lost it calling for a confrontation with Russia.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 21, 2014 12:14:02 PM | 87

somebody 87

Saw that too, its crazy,
This shows how deep hatred there is for Russia in the west.

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 21, 2014 12:20:41 PM | 88

"You fail to understand the dynamics of a revolution. Any agreement, truce or amnesty law only empowers the revolution."

What revolution? This is a coup.

Now this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5TdQjqdH4E
is a revolution.

Posted by: ruralito | Feb 21, 2014 12:28:39 PM | 89

Russia freezes aid for Ukraine – minister

Posted by: JSorrentine | Feb 21, 2014 12:33:48 PM | 90

Ozawa #85

NATO could not establish a No-Fly Zone over Syria because it was denied the use of the eastern Mediterranean by the Russian Navy – with 1) orders to sink any aggressor and 2) authorization to use tactical nuclear weapons for self-defense. The NFZ could not be launched from Turkey or Jordan because these countries are too unstable to serve as platforms for aggression.

Western Ukraine neighbors NATO heartland. Western military intervention – as called for by Vitali Klitschko today – can have multiple expressions. It would start by covert military aid to rebels and secessionist oblasts. Threats and condemnation would be used to prevent the central government from restoring order in western breakaway regions. No jets needs to be in the air.

What ever the truth, the fact remains that the revolutionaries believe they have military backing from NATO. Why else would Polish foreign minister Radoslaw Sikorski need to make his point so strongly?

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Feb 21, 2014 12:42:51 PM | 91

@66 somebody:
that NYBooks article, "Fascism, Russia, and Ukraine" is demented. Snyder claims that all Ukraine's social groups (commies, LGBT, nazis, veterans, feminists, Jews, Muslims, etc etc etc) have formed separate entities all fighting together as one big happy rainbow family against Russia because Russia hates Jews... he's crazy.
he says Americans can take a lesson from them in dying (literally) to join the EU... and adds, "Might there be something to be learned from that among Euroskeptics in London or elsewhere? This is a dialogue that is not taking place."
that's insanity.

I cannot decipher his comment: "...the hope that Ukraine could one day join the European Union, an aspiration that for many Ukrainians means something like the rule of law, the absence of fear, the end of corruption, the social welfare state, and free markets..."
does he mean the END of the social welfare state, or the inception of it?
I can't even guess, but I'm sure people who follow this shit can. help?

anyway, maybe this is gobbled up in NY, but it's completely nuts. again, I am struck by the obvious propaganda nature of the piece - that is aimed at convincing people that TPTB think they are acting on a rational agenda, but nobody actually believes in it.

Posted by: anon | Feb 21, 2014 12:46:52 PM | 92

The NY Review of Books is pure poison. A luxurious tapestry embroidered with lies. Cordyceps!

Posted by: ruralito | Feb 21, 2014 12:59:25 PM | 93

The legitimate protesters in the Ukraine (not the paid agitators)
being fooled by EU and US propaganda into joining the EU & the banking cartel that's sucking the life out of Greece, Spain, Italy, Ireland, Portugal and others should remember that it was the Soviet
Union they hated, not Russia. Russians are their blood brothers and also hated the totalitarian Soviet Union, which the West called "communism" or "socialism," but in fact had nothing to do with either.

They need good trading relations with Russia, not with the banking
mafia that controls the EU and the US, which wants to turn the Ukraine into another colony of exploitation, maintenance, acquisition and expansion. The EU and the mega banks controlling the West and the United States need to be splintered into a thousand pieces and scattered to the winds.

Posted by: Cynthia | Feb 21, 2014 1:06:25 PM | 94

Tymoschenko will be freed.

No surprise there. Breaking that bitch free (and reinstalling her in some power position) was one of the major goals from the beginning.

The funny part for Ukraine, however, has not even begun.

For a starter, the country will have to live in some kind of grey zone, in the best of cases with an interim government of doubtful clout, until at least september when a new president shall be elected.
Expect lots of dirty things, usually in the zusas and zeus interest, to happen until then.

Of course Russia has immediately frozen all help. Which creates a funny situation because creating mayhem and putsching oneself (as a puppet of foreign interests) is one thing; to run a country and to make sure that people have work and to eat is a very different thing.
Obviously Ukraine will unconditionally need external financial help to the tune of 20bln or more.

Also obviously neither zusa nor zeu are willing - or capable - to support Ukraine with funds of the needed magnitude. Ukraine can't expect much more than warm and vane words. This is even more true as Ukraine ows Russia around 7 bln $ and neither zusa nor zeu will be ready to help Ukraine with even a penny for that.

Just wait some 2 or 3 month an one of Ukraines major problems - even in the western and northern regions - will be poverty and a rapidly rising hate for zusa and zeu. Of course, the criminal puppets will continue their pro western regime any which again will lead to some maidan II and maybe maidan III ...

In my minds eye very high chances are that before the presidential elections Ukraine will be split and the northern/western part will be deeply frustrated, in flames and poverty with excessive crime rate (part of which will flood into zeu).
At the same time eastern/southern Ukraines major problem will be to keep the borders to the other part of former Ukraine very tight. I expect "crimealand" (the new country out of todays eastern and southern regions) to immediately after their creation ask for Russian protection and I expect that Russia will provide it.

And all that trouble because nobody had the guts to put bullets in timochenkos, klitchkos and the other traitors and terrorist masters heads.


Ceterum censeo israel americanamque vehementer delenda esse.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 21, 2014 1:19:50 PM | 95

92) They are again "marketing" a "revolution" according to target groups - this is the New York target group - it has got nothing to do with what is going on in Ukraine.

Anyway, this tragedy obviously has not ended yet.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 21, 2014 1:27:28 PM | 96

@95

You don't get it. Nuland's "Freedom Cakes®" have 10x the nutritional value of ordinary cakes. Who needs a job or money when such great-tasting freedom can sustain you indefinitely?

Posted by: JSorrentine | Feb 21, 2014 1:30:34 PM | 97

JSorrentine (97)

You are abbbbsolutely right. Now I see the light!

Oh, btw. are you happy with the numbers arranged by Mr. Greensteen of the "super-duper really mega official giga unbiased Ukrainian Observatory of whatever you please" on the Ceva-i-Ra Atoll of the Fidschi islands? Can we forward them to mr. (Fill my) banki soon for official un release or does mrs. jewland wish to increase them arbitrarily somewhat more?

"We aim to please" (sniper having jewland in his crosshairs).

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 21, 2014 1:39:16 PM | 98

Seems the boxer's lost control of his goons on the street..The right-wing nutjobs have rejected the agreement signed..This is like Syria all over again where the SNC agrees to something but the jihadis on the ground come out to reject it..


I think this has been one regime change operation, which was supposed to "peacefully" topple an elected government, gone too far..The EU seems scared of what monsters they've revived..The scary part is, there're many more Sbobodas-type movement/groups in almost all the EU countries. Gentlemen, we're witnessing a clear case of a devious plot backfiring on the brains behind it..

We saw how the US thought they could use Al-Qaeda in Libya/Syria to get what they want and then get rid of them afterward. Only to find their little monsters becoming bigger monsters and starting to think for themselves...Oh dear!!!

Posted by: Zico | Feb 21, 2014 3:12:23 PM | 99

Looking at the situation, I think Yanukovich is a bit of a buffoon. His indecisiveness and clumsy attempt at playing the EU and US against Moscow is what's got the whole country into this mess. It backfired big time. Russia will be absolutely stupid to go ahead with the aid and the EU certainly can't bail out Ukraine. That money's already been swallowed up the by Greece bailout.

What's happened to Ukraine has sealed that country's fate. Things will NEVER be the same again. The most likely outcome(long-term) is that the Eastern part will split from the West. It's now an ethnic conflict.


Funny how again we see Poland being the staging ground for this nonsense. I guess they never learned their lesson from WW2 when the British promised to back them up when they were messing around with Germany. Only to find themselves at the receiving end of Germany's onslaught...

Posted by: Zico | Feb 21, 2014 3:34:10 PM | 100

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