Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 19, 2014

The Ukrainian Government Is Fighting Fascists

Some news accounts of yesterday's fighting in Kiev make it look as if the government yesterday started the fighting by clearing the Maidan plaza. That was not the case.

There was an attempt by the opposition in parliament to change the constitution. That attempted was defeated by the dully elected majority coalition. Opposition protester then violently attacked the parliament building and tried to storm it. The police responded to that, pressed the protester back and later proceed to kick them out of their launching position. The violent protesters, mostly fascists, confirmed that timeline of events:

Some protesters acknowledged that they had contributed to the violent spiral of events by attacking police officers during street battles early in the day near the Ukrainian Parliament, which the opposition had hoped would approve constitutional amendments curbing President Yanukovych’s powers.

The Ukrainian government is fighting against well armed fascists, not against peaceful protesters. Doug Saunders of Canada's Globe & Mail recently visited Kiev:

This is the headquarters of Pravy Sektor, or Right Sector, the ultra-right-wing movement, described by some as fascist, whose hundreds of soldiers (they call themselves an army) have become the sharp edge of the two-month-old protest movement that has upturned the politics of Ukraine, cost several lives and forced President Viktor Yanukovych to dismiss the government and promise to reform the constitution.
...
[T]he physical organization of these protests, the building of barricades around squares, much of the camp construction and policing, and the pitched and sometimes deadly battles with police are almost entirely the work of the extreme right. In some of Ukraine’s smaller cities, the local protests and seizures of government buildings appear to have been entirely the work of Pravy Sektor.

These folks are evil. Let us hope that Yanukovich now finally, though three month too late in my view, is coming down hard on them.

Posted by b on February 19, 2014 at 17:00 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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what were the wall st. bank bailouts of 2008, if not a clear statement on how capitalism is completely reliant on gov't bailouts (paid for by the little people)? screw the ordinary folk while maintaining the quaint concept of capitalism (war=money?) churning along.. swallow everything the mainstream media tells you too while using it and your stupid concept of capitalism as a diversion on the main topic too! i guess this is what patriotic members of a warmongering countries do - they stand for war 24/7..

Posted by: james | Feb 20 2014 18:15 utc | 101

I'm with Jeff. much rather live in capitalist USA where only Bangladeshis die for my comforts. and all those other small people... I should look at a globe...
got my latest iphone, burned a lot of fossil fuels today, bought some socks made in El Salvador, got a few Mexicans working in the yard, plenty of money to go to doctors and to college, just need to skip out on paying taxes... no self-hatred here!
no hunger, no oppression.

but I didn't know the riots in Ukraine were anti-communist. wow, you learn something every day!

Posted by: anon | Feb 20 2014 22:33 utc | 102

@54

I read in the Globe and Mail article about how "Pravy Sektor members have been spotted wearing neo-Nazi symbols," and the spokesman admitting that he knows "one guy who’s got ‘14/88’ [a symbol referring to Adolf Hitler’s Mein Kampf] painted on his shield".

Then I come here and read, "Btw., it's not even difficult to see the coincidence. I know people who knew since weeks that jews would be found at the very core of the Ukrainian terror movement. It's kind of remarkably reliable that coincidence with the jews. Just look for murdering, plundering, terrorizing and you will quite reliably find jews at the center - coincidentially, of course," among other comments This website is taking a stand against Pravy Sektor, and yet we hear Pravy Sektor-like hate-rhetoric in the comments.

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Feb 20 2014 22:58 utc | 103

"This website is taking a stand against Pravy Sektor, and yet we hear Pravy Sektor-like hate-rhetoric in the comments."
Posted by: Inkan1969 | Feb 20, 2014 5:58:01 PM | 103

Hate-rhetoric?
I haven't heard (or seen) one such comment on this website.
List them by thread and comment number so I can make up my own mind about whether they're hateful.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 21 2014 2:56 utc | 104

"a pro-zusa polish traitor jew"...wow, that is so racist, but then again, why am I surprised

I did love the comment about Russia being so free, well, unless you're gay, or black, or generally foreign looking, or an independent female journalist or a member of an all female punk band who doesn't like Vlad...hmmm...where to stop

At no point did I praise capitalism. The rape and exploitation of Africa in the 19th century, all in the name of profit is one horrendous example of capitalism. And the west still hasn't recognized this. The difference is...I don't blindly follow what someone spoon feeds me.

And please, stop comparing the communists under the soviets with socialism. That wasn't socialism.

Posted by: Another Jeff | Feb 21 2014 13:18 utc | 105

Russia being so free, well, unless you're gay

That one gives you away. Don't mix up MoA with a toilet. It is not.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 21 2014 14:18 utc | 106

This old garbage still. Here we are watching with our own eyes armed cop killers called "peaceful protesters". Does anyone think for a second that this isn't just one more in a long string about Russia and the Soviet Union? And yet "Jeff" - repeating foff/stfu/lmao - comes tell old lies again.

I don't know everything about history, but I do know lying isn't a recent invention. Why should we believe the old lies anymore than these latest ones?

Posted by: guest77 | Feb 21 2014 14:55 utc | 107

"And please, stop comparing the communists under the soviets with socialism. That wasn't socialism."

It was a start. But Russia has always been a victim of its own geography. It is very easy to invade. Rocky soil for revolution. But rich with much mineral wealth, water power, oil, gas; all for the taking, if only we can get rid of those pesky slavs.

Posted by: ruralito | Feb 21 2014 15:23 utc | 108

Wow they really agreed to let Timoshenko out of jail?!
Sorry but Ukrainian government seems to be the worst when it comes to making a deal. What are they so afraid of?
US, EU, NATO won I guess.

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 21 2014 17:01 utc | 109

Dear Mr Pragma #47, I don't think you will see Chinese boots on the ground in Ukraine soon, along with Russia. The furthest that the Chinese went in Ukraine was when director Zhang Yimou went to make part of his gaudy and grand movie Flying Daggers. Just for that turkey, US/EU should invade Ukraine to get rid of every last vestige of Chinese influence.
Seriously, 1: Actual real fighting is only ever the last resort, in the annals of Sun Tzu. 2. The party & president won't bet the house and country on a foreign imbroglio, esp its immediate interests are scant. The priority is on urgent reforms, challenged by vested interests within the party. The internal fissures will erupt when the adventure goes awry. Not pretty. 3. Foreign adventurism will change the course of the island disputes in the Western Pacific, where China's stated policy is settlement through negotiation. Intervention abroad will only confirm the image of an aggressive bullying China that Western policy wonks are pushing.

Posted by: nakedtothebone | Feb 21 2014 17:49 utc | 110

Mr Pragma: I wish you would clarify whether you mean "Israeli interests" when you say "Jews" because it really does sound racist and/or unclear as to which you mean.

It is also antiquated to use "whore" to refer to political sellouts (as it wouldn't be okay to use "nigger" to refer to political slaves, for example).

Mr Inkan1969: just because there are militants with swastika tattoos fighting in Kiev does not mean there are no Jews in there also, on both sides no doubt, as the issues are not about religion. but check out http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/mar/20/fascism-russia-and-ukraine/?insrc=hpss for another take on how important Judaism is to various observers. personally, I don't think it is, but people are allowed to say it.

Posted by: anon | Feb 21 2014 18:11 utc | 111

oh, my last comment sounds like I'm saying "Jew" is like saying "whore" or "nigger"!!
that's not how it should be read.
I'm just adding my two cents on proper language, TO BE CLEAR. thanks

Posted by: anon | Feb 21 2014 18:14 utc | 112

nakedtothebone (109)

Huh?
I didn't think that China will invade or otherwise militarily engage in Ukraine.


@anon

When I say "jew" I mean what pretty everyone understands "jew" to mean (although they wouldn't dare to say it openly because the suppression regime the jews established in many countries). I do *not* mean the exceptional person who just happens to practice judaian religion but detests izrael.

Anyway, feel free to worry about linguistic details and artificially created "problems" connected to words; my concern is more for the many, many millions of humans who have to badly suffer due to the dirty games of jews, zamericans and other zio-whores.

You are welcome.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 21 2014 18:31 utc | 113

Mr Pragma: I hope the sexual domination that you get off on does not include harming children.

Posted by: anon | Feb 21 2014 20:10 utc | 114

@ruralito
"Nothing, besides flinging feces, has always worked"

Exactly, free-market, this is what the Ukrainian people want. Any deviation from this, is towards someone's utopian society, usually at the cost of someone else.

"English dukes and earls etc. realized there was a lot of cash to be had by kicking the peasants off their land and replacing them with sheep." This is exactly what Socialism did in Ukraine in hopes of creating Communism. The forced collectivization and starvation that followed. How many millions starved in England when they did this?

Consider how many people died in the past century due to socialist ideals vs free-market trade. It's not the best system, but consider the alternative...

@Ruralito, are you certain about these pyramids of corpses? Mao, Stalin, Hitler all socialist, have over 30 mill starved and idk how many millions killed. Can you provide me some #'s on capitalist casualties in the past 100 years? I'll take the everyday oppression from my employer, one that I can fight against or leave any day, vs the oppression from a system I can't change. I also always have an option of being an employer. I'll take money as a means of decision making vs the opinion of the few who only work to solidify their position and then never leave office.

Mr. Pragma, nope no barking, all I had to do was have a divergent thought, one that doesn't resonate with everyone here. That's why it got attention. The groupthink turned to attack me. Eventually a discussion emerged where people are trying to use evidence instead of verbal poop. Why are you so scared of an actual discussion and an argument with someone who doesn't agree? Could it be that you worry your side could be proven wrong? So yeah, it may be best to ignore people like me, you'll never be wrong.

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 21 2014 21:21 utc | 115

Why are you so scared of an actual discussion and an argument with someone who doesn't agree? Could it be that you worry your side could be proven wrong?

Well, at least you show a high potential of phantasy and some sense of humour rather than *only* falling back to ad hominems.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 21 2014 21:32 utc | 116

@georgeg Actually I got to here from Elaine's site. I read her article, made a comment, started a discussion, a link here was posted, found another narrow discussion, decided to participate.

@anon Exactly. I have no false notions that my pleasure comes from other's misfortune. Pretending otherwise is hypocrisy.

However I do what I can. Bike when I can, buy local (no matter the extra $), and research the ethical track records of the bigger corps I give money to. However for the rest of it, yeah I'm living easy on someone else's labor. I wish it wasn't so, but there's only so much I can do. The only hope I believe is to raise the standard of living on the poor end of the financial spectrum, so they ask for more $. This is starting to happen in China a bit. Knowing Ukrainian, I try to put my efforts in Ukraine, they're driving down my paycheck as a web developer down lol. Once their standard of living is better, they'll ask for more, and I'll be able to make more here when it's not profitable to outsource.

So if you want the manufacturing sector to come back to the US, raising the Chinese standard of living is the best way. When it costs $35 + $6 shipping for the same part as $40 in the US, the manufacturing will come flooding back.

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 21 2014 21:57 utc | 117

Think I phrased something poorly, sorry English isn't my 1st language. The way I said it makes it sound like either the opposite or I get please from others' misfortune, neither one of what I meant.

I meant to say "I have no false notions about the fact that my pleasure is derived from others' misfortune." Maybe some read it like this, but just wanted to clarify.

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 21 2014 23:19 utc | 118

So, we've just watched police man murdering, molotov cocktail throwing, armed to the teeth gangs called "peaceful protestors" in the western media. These things are known colloquially as "lies" and as far as I know, they are not a recent invention.

So why is it, having seen the obvious, bald-faced lies that the west is prone to inventing from whole-cloth today with our very own eyes, are we to believe all of the old lies they told about the Soviet Union over the years that "Jeff" is trotting out now? Is there NO part of what is happening now that makes you think "hmm. Maybe I ought to examine my beliefs..."

Sorry. Seeing what we've seen in Syria, Libya, Iraq, and now here, and knowing that the Soviets were on the receiving end of the same crap for decades - there's a credibility gap here, to put it tactfully.

I mean, what did those rotten Soviets do? Assassinate world leaders? Did they murder their political opponents? Did they shoot protestors down in the street? Did they spy on their citizens? Did they attack small countries and kill civilians? Did they overthrow democratic governments? Did they use chemical weapons? Run concentration camps? Repress their people? Crush dissent at home? Control their media and indoctrinate their people? Imprison huge numbers of their citizens? Did they dominate their sphere of influence?

If they did any of that, they were amateurs. Hobbyists. The US, of course, is the professional. The US has absolutely no right to call any other country "totalitarian" and any parrot who comes around here to do it for them is obviously had their head up their rear for decades.

Because the US is a b.s. factory, and make no mistake Jeff - you are not just the consumer, you are also the product. And the folks at MoA, for the most part, are not buying.

Posted by: guest77 | Feb 22 2014 0:31 utc | 119

"Russia being so free, well, unless you're gay

That one gives you away. Don't mix up MoA with a toilet. It is not."


this one gives me away???

...why not this one "or an independent female journalist"

or this one "black"

you wouldn't be selectively choosing something that conforms to your point of view?

btw, I'm neither, not even an all female punk band

Posted by: Another Jeff | Feb 22 2014 1:14 utc | 120

"Knowing Ukrainian, I try to put my efforts in Ukraine, they're driving down my paycheck as a web developer down lol. Once their standard of living is better, they'll ask for more, and I'll be able to make more here when it's not profitable to outsource."

Wow Jeff, I almost overdosed on the neoliberal logic there. How about this: you'll soon be forced to compete for work with refugees escaping from a decimated substate.

There's this little thing called the "race to the bottom", Jeff. And, not to spoil the ending, but it doesn't end with you on top. But guess we should expect a tenuous grasp of reality and history from someone who would cheer the violent actions of marauding hooligans in the hope that he'd someday make a few dollars more as a web developer.

Jesus Christ man. No offense but - you're part of the problem.

Posted by: guest77 | Feb 22 2014 1:30 utc | 121

"At no point did I praise capitalism. The rape and exploitation of Africa in the 19th century, all in the name of profit is one horrendous example of capitalism. And the west still hasn't recognized this. The difference is...I don't blindly follow what someone spoon feeds me."

Oh, the 19th Century. Really? You have to go all the way back then to find some capitalism butchery?

Though I have no doubt that knowledge of the crimes of capitalism before the 19th Century could keep one busy for a lifetime, but you may want to fast-forward a bit to some to some more recent barbarism like the Vietnam War, the 1980s wars in Central America, the Mexican Drug War, and the Iraq War. It's really some of the capitalists "best" work. And if Syria and Libya are any indication - they appear to be moving into a period of renewed vigor.

The problem with caring deeply about a what happens to a cute punk band in Russia while the USA daily murders people across the globe and runs the world's largest prison industrial complex is a little thing called "hypocrisy". I'll admit that Pussy Riot is easier on they eyes than 60,000 dismembered Mexicans - but we can't always do what feels good, now can we?

You've been spoon-fed alright. And this idea of yourself that you haven't been - it is just all the more proof that you have.

Posted by: guest77 | Feb 22 2014 2:26 utc | 122

@Jeffs Ah, I get it; you're Randian. That explains a lot. Have you considered donating your brain(s) to science? Oh, and you should get on well with Dr P; you both portray yourselves as lone voices howling in the wilderness.

Posted by: ruralito | Feb 22 2014 2:56 utc | 123

Jeff,

@ 86. thanx for this wonderful piece of irony.

you can believe what you read, but I знаю better.
Shall I believe what I just read, namely that you know better? Based on what? Your first couple of comments on this blog clearly showing your bias?

[...] There were reps going to every village ready to pay for votes, but only for one party. The ballet stuffing or the intimidation of old people that wouldn't take the bribes by those same reps visiting the villages. [...]
I am genuinely curious how that works. I want to vote for party A but then a rep from party B shows up and offers me $50 if I vote party B. What are my options?

* I could say No thank you and vote for party A.

* I could take the $50 and still vote for party A, who would ever know?

* I could take the $50 and indeed vote for party B, giving away the fact that I never really cared for party A in the first place.

Can you shed some light on what other options I should add to this list?

This one here @ 114 is one for the album:

[...] free-market, this is what the Ukrainian people want. Any deviation from this, is towards someone's utopian society, usually at the cost of someone else. [...]
It seems you and those Ukrainians you are writing about must indeed be peasants without access to computers, TV or print media. Otherwise they'd knew that in so called free-market societies there are plenty of people at who's cost the peeps on top of the hill are living it up.

Do you really believe the EU zone has no cronyism, backroom deals, corruption, stand over tactics, blackmail, pork barreling or ballot stuffing? Talking about utopia? Hahaha, too funny.

Posted by: Juan Moment | Feb 22 2014 3:03 utc | 124

@guest77

How do you expect to fix the race to the bottom besides helping raise the bottom bar? You sound rather naive. If you're not, give me a concrete plan of action that will raise a people's standard of living. If you can't, go back to college and argue with your proffessor some more in some ivory tower about how best to structure the peasants in some socialist order. Meanwhile they'll structure themselves in the market.

The race to the bottom is a result of lax regulations and taxation, not what the protesters want. In fact that's what Russia has, flat 13% tax, lax regulation, and you should seriously see their bottom. However it has made for a pretty rich top. An $11,000,000,000 yacht, yeah that's billion dolalrs, with a helicopter pad and a submarine, something no westerner could moraly permit themselves to have. Russian oil oligarch however...

"you'll soon be forced to compete for work with refugees escaping from a decimated substate" Most refugees of Ukraine are living far better than the citizens of Ukraine, I should know.

No offense but I think you're part of the problem. What have you done lately besides bitch online? Have you ever been to an empovirshed part of the world and try to help? I think then you will see what the true causes of fiscal stagnation and inabliity to progress are. I advise peace corps, missionary work, or just join a volunteer organization.

As far as capitalism goes, I'm not arguing for it. However betwene that and socialism, I believe it is the lesser of two evils. The Vietnam war, the worst of the ones you've mentioned had less than 3 million casulties. "Great Leap Forward" had over 20 million, and that wasn't ever a war, just a socialist idea. For socialist war casulties look at world war 2.

@Juan

The options you've presented to the bribe situation.

a) You get beat up or added to some list to be beat up or terrorized later.
b) Some of those counting the votes don't care for ideals and reporting only to the government. They take notes and have lists to cross refernce, and then report to the Kremlin party.
c) Usually happens because of fear, not apathy. Talk to some old people in Ukraine to find out.

I don't expect equality in Ukraine, EU or not, just less corruption. I think it's pretty obvious that the path of less corruption lies with EU vs Russia. It's not Utopia, but it's politics, lesser of two evils. I'm sorry that you think EU is more evil than Russia, I don't think such is the case. To each his own.

"It seems you and those Ukrainians you are writing about must indeed be peasants without access to computers, TV or print media."

The joke is that yes, the market has brought fiber optics to most Ukrainian villages. A village of 300 people has fiber optics installed, for dirt cheap ($7 a month [by us standards]). The state owned telecom company that has more $ than any other company hasn't done shit. Never even upgraded the villages for dial-up internet, partly why fiber moved in. Though that's a luxury only some of the well-off villagers can afford. However better than nothing. This kind of stuff makes people appreciate market forces, and hate the crony reality of some socialist ideals.

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 22 2014 4:47 utc | 125

Jeff, concerning your claims of bribery and voter intimidation, it is my understanding people in the Ukraine did cast their vote in secret, in election booths, meaning who voted for which party can not be determined by authorities and your entire argument goes out the window.

I'm sorry that you think EU is more evil than Russia,
From your previous comments I take it you believe cops in Euro countries don't beat up demonstrators, that in Berlin and London masked people can throw molotov cocktails at police and storm government buildings without consequences. Naive at best.

Fact is that if you'd pull a stunt like the militant opposition fighters in the Maidan in a European capitol the riot cops would have started cracking heads much earlier than their Ukrainian peers.

In terms of 'evil', a term I tend to not use but I get what you mean, how shall we calculate each country's ranking?

If we go by the number of wars they started in the last 20 years, or in other words the number of civilians their armies have killed in invasions and occupations of sovereign nations, then I am sorry to say but by that measure the US/Euro war criminals are hugely more evil than Russia.

The state owned telecom company that has more $ than any other company hasn't done shit.
If this statement of yours is any indication how much of an expert you are on the Ukrainian situation, I have to say it doesn't look good for you.

Not only was Ukrtelecom privatized in March 2011, but as of 2011, Ukraine was ranked 9th in the "Top 10 Internet countries in Europe", meaning that whilst it still was state run Ukrtelecom managed to deliver better internet services than more than half of the Euro zone countries.

But hey, the Eurozone with its free market is where dreams come true, right? Fool! To get an idea which way the wind blows look at the stats. Take Germany for example:

During the last decades the number of people living in poverty has been increasing. Children are more likely to be poor than adults. There has been a strong increase in the number of poor children. In 1965 only one in 75 children lived on welfare, in 2007 one in 6 did

So unfortunately based on your comments so far I have to assume you are either a shill or someone still believing in the tooth fairy.

Posted by: Juan Moment | Feb 22 2014 7:54 utc | 126

@Juan

"From your previous comments I take it you believe cops in Euro countries don't beat up demonstrators, that in Berlin and London masked people can throw molotov cocktails at police and storm government buildings without consequences. Naive at best."

I don't think I've seen any people get the shit beat out of them over a peaceful protest in EU. The moltovs came out when the beatings started. Though in Greece, from what I've seen, they've come out a lot earlier and the repression was still not as deadly. In Russia and Belarus people could barely publicly support Ukraine, in fact I think someone in Belarus got arrested for doing just that. Some of the protest laws in those countries, I tell you, China has more freedom.

The internet penetration in Ukraine is largely thanks to market forces, nothing to do with Ukrtelecom. They could barely provide some DSL, and considering the money they spent it's a bit ridiculous.

In regards to 'evil'. I agree, the word is vague by being subjectively defined. I used it within my subjective context so I guess it's irrelevant.

Though if we do go by casualties, if you consider all of EU's existence, I think you should consider Kremlin's attempts in Afghanistan 20 years ago, where they were sending soldiers of all Slavic nations to their slaughter. For what? If anything the US clean-up efforts of their initial weapon injection seem more justified. Iraq on the other hand was an asshole move. The only reason Russia hasn't done anything militant is because it doesn't have the power.

As far as boohoo for Germany, I can't feel bad for them, sorry. They were lucky enough to get to keep a state after world war 2. How bout you give me poverty stats for the whole of EU, which those assholes greatly increased? Also, what was considered poverty in 65 and today. The article referenced in Wikipedia is pretty skimpy on the details. Somehow I highly doubt there are more malnutritioned children in Germany today then in 65. Welfare enrollment isn't always a sign of poverty, often it's a sign of a well functioning welfare system, which makes people more and more comfortable asking for help. You know what they say, lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 22 2014 8:29 utc | 127

Its surprising there are people who still believe in EU fairytale. IMO its because of main reasons:

a) West's billions spend in brainwashing and their sky-high fake promises.
b) Naive idea that some poor state joining EU will magically start living like Germany. Newsflash - they wont. If anything, they'll live worse.

I admit I voted for my country (Lithuania) to join EU, I was one of those fools who believed in a "bright future." Nothing could be further from the truth, only 5% of elite lives better, rest of 95% population live worse than under Soviets.

"But we are independent!" Not anymore, we just traded one master for another. Therefore its especially funny when Ukraine's opposition and West are claiming its a fight about freedom... Freedom from their own independence and becoming yet another failed province in EU? :))

Another good example how bad it is in ex-Soviet republics which joined EU is massive emigration. Poland is so vocal now how "they live so great", yet 4 or 5 millions of Polish jumped the ship and emigrated.

Its even worse in Lithuania, more than 25% of all population emigrated already and even more are planning to leave! Let this sink in. We even say "Lithuanians arent emigrating, we are evacuating." Its that bad.

Posted by: Harry | Feb 22 2014 8:53 utc | 128

@Juan

Per your election comments, not all booths were as secretive as you would think. This in itself is enough to drive fear into people. Before the elections less than 5% of the population thought they elections were going to be fair, 41% thought they'd be manipulated, 15% thought it was going to be rigged, and 8% were wiling to sell their votes for $. In this kind of a fearful and distrustful environment, intimidation and bribery can do wonders, but you can go ahead and believe in the "secret booth" making Ukrainians feel safe story.

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 22 2014 8:53 utc | 129

Jeff

Wow are you a holocaust denier too perhaps with that denial? Police have been very restrained for months they havent commited any violations.
When facists, terrorists trying to coup a state violently of course the police have to use force to protect the state.

Where are you from? Lets see if you would love nazis taking power, well unless you are a nazi yourself.

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 22 2014 8:58 utc | 130

I'

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 22 2014 9:01 utc | 131

Nope not a holocaust denier. And I'm from the internet if you must know. Calling me a Nazi is a bit ridiculous because I have less national identity than most people. I speak English, Ukrainian, Russian, and a little (very little) Japanese. I've recently started learning Mandarin Chinese as well. I mostly reside in US / Ukraine though I've frequented other nations.

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 22 2014 9:09 utc | 132

126) Yep, and you need EU passports for that. Ask Moldovans, how bad it is to be stuck there, or some unlucky person living in Transnistria.

People get cheated by sectarianism and nationalism for geopolicy's sake.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 22 2014 9:13 utc | 133

Jeff

Of course you do, you live here and there, know alot of languanges, you really are a paid protester travelling around arent you "jeff"?
You must be really stupid coming here trying to peddle US/EU/NATO propaganda.

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 22 2014 9:14 utc | 134

Sorry about the bad post (129) browser glitched and I hit tab enter I think.

@Anonymous and anyone else who keeps spinning that the protesters started the violence.

Why are you spinning things? "trying to coup a state violently" That didn't start happening until people started getting their heads bashed in.

If you don't know how this series of events escalated, at the least read the Wikipedia short.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan#Demands

Then maybe read some more. Please get informed before making ignorant comments.

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 22 2014 9:16 utc | 135

So I like to travel and learn languages, sue me. I really didn't come here to peddle propaganda, nor am I. I was reading articles about what was happening in Ukraine and started getting frustrated how ignorant people are of global politics in some threads, so I started commenting. But I'm not some paid protester. I work for a living every day. I'm a web developer. Let's talk AJAX, HTML, CSS, JS, C#, PHP, Node.js if you need some proof. I use my love of languages (both machine and human) at both work and leisure, I think you may need to get out more instead of bashing me for my interests.

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 22 2014 9:22 utc | 136

133) We do not know.

But there would have been no need to "mediate" the conflict for EU ministers if the protesters had just camped peacefully on the square. Let them camp.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 22 2014 9:24 utc | 137

Jeff

You keep lying "Jeff" besides Jeff is not an ukrainian name so what are you doing in Ukraine? YOu are so busted.

You have no idea whats going on, you admit it yourself with this line


I was reading articles about what was happening in Ukraine and started getting frustrated how ignorant people are of global politics in some threads,

or with this

Wikipedia

AS I said police have been restrained so the facists you support have been able to kill people and attacked buildings.


Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 22 2014 9:29 utc | 138

I'm not in Ukraine, never claimed I was. I was there in September/October when the trade agreement was being discussed and the whole nation thought it was moving forward. I also have friends and family throughout Ukraine, and if you must know, no Jeff is not my original name. It was Сергій. But I believe a being has the right to choose his name, belief system, and government. I changed all 3 from the ones I was born into. Some through luck (gov), some through choice (name, belief system [Greek Catholic Orthodox -> Buddhist). Sorry if you don't like change.

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 22 2014 9:39 utc | 139

"AS I said police have been restrained so the facists you support have been able to kill people and attacked buildings."

As you said nothing, offer some evidence, link maybe?

Funny how one end of the propaganda machine screams it's all the fascists, the other end screams it's all the Jews. The joke is that you have both Jewish people and neo-nazis (yea there are some there, I don't deny it, there are always a few bad apples) are on the same side. What does this tell you about the enemy they are facing when they can look past these differences to band on the same side.

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 22 2014 9:51 utc | 140

@somebody That's the problem, they weren't allowed to protest peacefully. They were forcefully dispersed a number of times before they erected barricades so Berkut couldn't disperse them with ease. PS the local cops were never willing to beat on the people.

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 22 2014 10:01 utc | 141

138) you lie.

One of Ukraine’s Chief Rabbis, Moshe Reuven Asman, urged Jews to leave capital city Kiev following a reported anti-Semitic attack on two Chabad yeshiva students in the city last month, Israeli daily Ma’ariv reported.

“I told my community to get out of the city and if possible out of the state…there are many warnings about planned attacks against Jewish institutions,” Asman said, adding, “We have been told by the Israeli Embassy to not go outside.”

Many members of Kiev’s Jewish community live within walking distance of the main square in the city that has recently become the focus of anti-government riots, according to Ma’ariv.

In recent days, chaos has gripped the area following the escalation of violence between government security forces and members of the opposition, with institutions around the city closing and subways no longer operating.

While Chief Rabbi Asman has been forced to close down the city’s Jewish schools, he continues to conduct three prayer services daily in his synagogue, Ma’ariv said.

“The situation here is dire,” said Yossi Asman, a Chabad yeshiva student and son of the chief rabbi. “We have been gathering up families and shuttling them out to safer neighborhoods.”

Edward Dolinsky, head of the umbrella organization responsible for Ukraine’s Jews, said the city’s dwindling food supply has provoked a state of panic among Kiev’s inhabitants.

“We have appealed to [Israeli] Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman to please help us protect our community,” Dolinsky added.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 22 2014 10:07 utc | 142

Yeah and other garbage media is spinning the other end.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Feb8vDXBMsY

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 22 2014 10:35 utc | 143

Jeff

So you are from america, so you would have support the same coup attempt in the us?

Evidence for what? You are the one claiming there were violations, again you have no idea what you are talking about, even linking to wiki!

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 22 2014 10:41 utc | 144

141) Israel does not mind Ukrainian Jews immigrating, quite the contrary. It is just bad for Ukrainian Jews who prefer living in their homeland.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 22 2014 10:43 utc | 145

This tweet here is funny

@SultanAlQassemi 3m

The good news is there's no Muslim Brotherhood in Ukraine to ruin it all for them.

No, just Fascists. They could be worse.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 22 2014 11:16 utc | 146

@Anonymous Evidence to your statements. I read that wiki section, seemed factual, posted the link, also told folks to do further reading. I didn't feel like compiling a news history, that's pretty easy to do, just look for articles relating to this in November, December, January to see how it progressed.

No I wouldn't support a coup in the US, there would be no need. If sentiments were ever this strong about a president he'd be impeached in a heart-beat. I mean shit, Clinton almost got impeached for lying over a BJ.

Ukraine however doesn't have this law (in practice, just a sham impossible plug) and it is only now that the protesters have reverted the constitution back to an earlier form, one that limits presidential powers, they can now introduce things like an impeachment bill with the chance of passing.

So stop drawing parallels when they don't exist.

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 22 2014 11:44 utc | 147

Jeff

How could give you evidence that the police have been restrained for months?! Just study it. Someone who take WIki seriously need help.

Lol yeah you are typical hypocrite, you support coups by fascists and other violent groups but wouldnt support it in the US. You have blood on your hands!
You think some 10000s you see on foxnews represent 40 millions ukrainians?!

You are the definition of the ignorant american, the kind that supported war on iraq. For crying out loud go read a book.

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 22 2014 12:06 utc | 148

@somebody "It is just bad for Ukrainian Jews who prefer living in their homeland."

I can see how the right wing elements of this movement would be worrisome for Jewish people. I sincerely hope and think that they won't have much say in the new government, or in general. I think most of Ukraine is weary of them.

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 22 2014 12:12 utc | 149

@Anonymous for crying out loud did you even read before you respond?

I don't support a coup in US because of the impeachment law. As I said "Ukraine however doesn't have this law (in practice, just a sham impossible plug) and it is only now that the protesters have reverted the constitution back to an earlier form, one that limits presidential powers, they can now introduce things like an impeachment bill with the chance of passing.

So stop drawing parallels when they don't exist."

As far as police being restrained for months, I did study it, and they weren't. Maybe it's you who needs to do some studying.

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 22 2014 12:16 utc | 150

Jeff

Impeachment law lol you are truly naive. Why havent US impeached any of its leaders for their wars for the last 50 years? Are you really this stupid?! And why would ukrainian president be impeached as you imply? Because your facists and terrorists in the streets say so? God..
No you are a hypocrite, you think its ok to overthrow leaders just like your presidents but if the same happend to your country you wouldnt support it.

"I did study it, and they weren't. Maybe it's you who needs to do some studying."

So when police get attacked, when building get attacked, when the people attack police with firebombs for months they are the ones to be blamed? Are you in a cult or something?

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 22 2014 12:25 utc | 151

Jeff

Wow you are a confused boy, first you support the fascists in the streets then you dont want them to rule.
"I sincerely hope and think that they won't have much say in the new government, or in general. I think most of Ukraine is weary of them."
You have blood up until your knees now boy.

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 22 2014 12:26 utc | 152

148) power is always with the gun.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 22 2014 12:32 utc | 153

Some more grist for the Jeff mill:

Comparing U.S. response to protest versus what has transpired in Ukraine look at the WTO ministerial that was held in Seattle in 1999. I was there for all days of the protest; I was an eyewitness to most of the keys events. Here is what happened: police were out-organized by peaceful protesters who used civil disobedience to shut down the ministerial. To disperse protesters who had blocked all access to convention center by sitting down in the streets police fired point blank using tear gas pepper spray concussion grenades, etc. Despite this resort to excessive force police lost control the streets and all of downtown. Pointing to vandalism of one Starbucks and a few broken storefront windows, a state of emergency was declared and the governor called out the National Guard, who then proceeded to attack the neighborhood I live in, which is located next to downtown.

This is just one example of what Democracy looks like in the "greatest nation on Earth."

Then what about the U.S. response to events in Ukraine vis-a-vis events in Bahrain since Arab Spring? Emergency room physicians and nurses were imprisoned and tortured for treating protesters and none of the Bahraini royals were sanctioned. Pussy Riot gets roughed up in Sochi and the sky is falling. Probably has something to with the fact that the U.S. Navy Fifth Fleet is not stationed at a port on the Black Sea.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Feb 22 2014 13:17 utc | 154

I should also mention in relation to the Seattle WTO, a "No Protest Zone" was declared, encompassing all of downtown where the ministerial was being.

What do you think the U.S./EU response would have been if Yanukovych had declared Independence Square a "No Protest Zone"?

Why is it permissible for the United States to dictate and lecture nations about human rights and democracy when it does not abide by its own rhetoric?

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Feb 22 2014 13:32 utc | 155

"Can you provide me some #'s on capitalist casualties in the past 100 years?"

Jeff, you are really the bottom of the barrel. You should be embarrassed. I'll ignore your inflated numbers and your attempts to draw any connections between fascism and its victims and ignore the capitalist countries role in all of that mess.

NoW: You can't even think of even one victim of the capitalist countries in the past 100 years? Not even one man or woman somewhere far away? Certainly not some homeless man in your town no - just someone, somewhere. On the other side of the globe even. No?

Just two: Vietnam is seared into most people's memories as a massive, appalling crime. Yet that doesn't jump to your mind? The Iraq War, a bit more recent, also a shocking episode, eludes your memory? And I could go on at length without even consulting a book or the internet. Around the globe. In every corner. 10,000 here... A million there... Nicaragua, Indonesia, Namibia, on and on and on....

And yet you ask, as if we'll be unable to answer, who many have died at the hands of the capitalist countries in the last 100 years?

You are an embarrassment to the human race Jeff. Your soullessness and your case of historical myopia are all, apparently, terminal.

Posted by: guest77 | Feb 22 2014 16:14 utc | 156

@guest77 Well I'm glad that you're so morally superior that it will fix the whole world from soullessness such as myself. I'm sure that with all your well wishing arm-chair politicking you are making great strides for a better world. Thank you for all your hard work.

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 22 2014 21:10 utc | 157

I'm also not advocating for ethical track record of Capitalism, however offer a better system in practice and I'll change my mind. That's like bitching about how shitty democracy is, yeah it is, but it's the best system we have so far.

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 22 2014 21:18 utc | 158

First off Jeff, you don't know me and you don't know what I have and have not been doing to "make a difference" in this world. So that's your first mistake. I'll just throw it on the big ol' pile of other shit you have wrong so far.

"How do you expect to fix the race to the bottom besides helping raise the bottom bar? You sound rather naive. If you're not, give me a concrete plan of action that will raise a people's standard of living."

The race to the bottom IS the plan of action, Jeff.

What part of decades of flatlined wages, spiraling debt, massive inequality and crashing living standards are an indication to you that the goal of capitalism is actually to raise living standards? What part of NAFTA, the TPP, the destruction of Detroit, rising poverty, increasing inequality says to you "we're on our way up"?

That you have the gall to call anyone naive is pure balls.

If you want a concrete plan of action to raise people's standards of living, you might follow the example of Venezuela, a real democracy who has brought millions and millions out of poverty and into the mainstream of public life. And people might follow that example if they could Jeff. The problem, though, is that while you are riding your bike, learning your languages, and making your ethereal "accomplishments" in cyberspace, in your "everything is great" American upper-middle class bubble - the country you live in is doing its damnedest to make sure that countries like Venezuela and the Ukraine don't develop through all manner of attacks.

Venezuela has eradicated illiteracy, halved the population living in poverty, nearly eradicated extreme poverty, reduced inequality, expanded education on every level, become food and energy independent, distributed millions of acres of farms to peasants, reduced infant mortality by huge percentages and nearly eradicated child malnutrition , granted pensions to the elderly, built 700,000 homes, fed the hungry, slashed unemployment and raised wages while reduced hours worked, and doubled per capita GDP. All in the face of relentless attack by its own tiny rich elite and the "world's only superpower". It has faced, and is facing, coups and riots and economic sabotage - all apparently because its developing "wrong". Just like a small peasant society like Vietnam faced a relentless pounding from the world's most powerful and technologically advanced nation - a "war" as you called it - all because it wanted to be independent.

This kind of development is off-handedly called evil by people like yourself. Never mind those millions who vote for it in droves. Never mind those who gave their lives for it. It's just the wrong kind of development. The same development that occurred in the Soviet Union and China - despite the attack by the capitalist countries (of which, by the way, your completely bogus numbers and trite propaganda are only one example of).

No doubt things seem pretty good indeed to a guy in the upper-upper middle class. Your living standards probably have been rising. You probably haven't been foreclosed on. Assuming your a competent web developer (and you may be very focused as you certainly haven't been spending your time thinking about the world around you) you should be making $75k a year. Do you know that that puts you in the top 95% of Americans in terms of income? Can you imagine where that puts you in the world?

Now it's just the question of letting the Ukrainians riot and burn their country until they get the same thing, right? And Syria is sure to have a bright future once all the murder is over, right Jeff? And Iraq - sure its been ten years of outright mayhem, but they'll turn the corner soon - you're sure of it, right? I mean, it just has to happen. And if it doesn't, well, we won't blame our massive war, we'll just blame "the market". That's good Jeff. Seeing a nation's capital in flames means "development, here we come". Wake up Jeff.

You live with blinders on. You're a member of a tiny rich minority in the richest country on the face of the earth, so indoctrinated by its propaganda you think the last time your country committed a crime was in the 19th Century and that its supporting rioters and lying about events halfway across the globe is, in the end, going to make you personally richer.

Naive doesn't even begin to describe you.

Posted by: guest77 | Feb 23 2014 3:19 utc | 159

@guest77 The personal riches was an example about how to prevent the race to the bottom. Actually my skill level at this point allows me to make a six figure income :) in the US. Instead I choose a 40k job at a poor little newspaper because I think it does a lot for the community. I also still grow a large part of my own food just like my family back in Ukraine. I've been picking-up potatoes (adults did the digging) on the family fields since the age of 4. I'm not saying I'm perfect, or even good. I'm saying I try, what do you do out of compassion? I'm not saying my government in the US is great, or even good either. I do however write to my representatives on occasion (though not sure how much that does). I'm not saying I know what's going on in Venezuela. But you obviously don't know what's going on in Ukraine. Correlation does not equal causality, but for some reason people feel like a brilliant genius who just found how to turn iron into gold when they correlate something. You call me naive, soulless, an embarrassment to the human race, etc. I guess I'll return the favor of figuring out what you are, let me guess, just some lazy communist shill that hasn't done a hard day's work in his/her life?

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 23 2014 4:04 utc | 160

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 22, 2014 11:04:30 PM | 160

Talking about "a hard day's work" and sacrificing one's potential to work at a "poor little newspaper" is beginning to make you sound like a concentration camp guard.
Oops, THE concentration camp guard (The Atlantic's).

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 24 2014 5:58 utc | 161

More name calling from someone with no substance.

Posted by: Jeff | Mar 6 2014 8:36 utc | 162

Jeff

You are one sicko.
Capitalist crimes?
Is 500'000 to 1'000000 iraqi kids enough for you?

Madeleine Albright - The deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children was worth it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8
Was it worth it according to you to "JEff" are you going to justify genocide on kids now?

Posted by: Anonymous | Mar 6 2014 9:31 utc | 163

Wtf are you trying to put in my mouth? Jesus Christ man!

I'm not justifying anything, nor am I advocating anything.

All I'm saying is people protesting against corruption is a good thing.

Posted by: Jeff | Mar 7 2014 5:48 utc | 164

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