Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
February 19, 2014

The Ukrainian Government Is Fighting Fascists

Some news accounts of yesterday's fighting in Kiev make it look as if the government yesterday started the fighting by clearing the Maidan plaza. That was not the case.

There was an attempt by the opposition in parliament to change the constitution. That attempted was defeated by the dully elected majority coalition. Opposition protester then violently attacked the parliament building and tried to storm it. The police responded to that, pressed the protester back and later proceed to kick them out of their launching position. The violent protesters, mostly fascists, confirmed that timeline of events:

Some protesters acknowledged that they had contributed to the violent spiral of events by attacking police officers during street battles early in the day near the Ukrainian Parliament, which the opposition had hoped would approve constitutional amendments curbing President Yanukovych’s powers.

The Ukrainian government is fighting against well armed fascists, not against peaceful protesters. Doug Saunders of Canada's Globe & Mail recently visited Kiev:

This is the headquarters of Pravy Sektor, or Right Sector, the ultra-right-wing movement, described by some as fascist, whose hundreds of soldiers (they call themselves an army) have become the sharp edge of the two-month-old protest movement that has upturned the politics of Ukraine, cost several lives and forced President Viktor Yanukovych to dismiss the government and promise to reform the constitution.
[T]he physical organization of these protests, the building of barricades around squares, much of the camp construction and policing, and the pitched and sometimes deadly battles with police are almost entirely the work of the extreme right. In some of Ukraine’s smaller cities, the local protests and seizures of government buildings appear to have been entirely the work of Pravy Sektor.

These folks are evil. Let us hope that Yanukovich now finally, though three month too late in my view, is coming down hard on them.

Posted by b on February 19, 2014 at 17:00 UTC | Permalink

next page »

Yup, it appear the Ukrainian military has been given the green light.

Here's the untranslated page.

Here's google translate of page:

In connection with the decision to commence in Ukraine antiterrorist operation Ministry of Defense of Ukraine official statement :

According to Article 5 of the Law of Ukraine " On combating terrorism " Ministry of Defense of Ukraine , bodies of military management, formations and units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine to protect against terrorist attacks facilities of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, firearms , ammunition, explosives and poisonous substances that are in the army or stored in designated areas.

Under section 15 of the Act , in the area of counter-terrorist operations of the Armed Forces of Ukraine have the right to :

- Use in accordance with the laws of Ukraine weapons and special means ;

- Apprehend and bring the police perpetrators of the offense or committing other acts;

- Check the citizens and officials of documents , identification , and in the absence of documents - to detain them for identification ;

- To carry out in the area of counter-terrorist operations citizens personal care , review the things that in them are , vehicles and things that they carried;

- Provisionally restrict or prohibit the movement of vehicles and pedestrians on streets and roads.

Measures provided for in this Article shall comply with the applicable law and terminate immediately after the anti-terrorist operation .

Coordination of activities of entities involved in the fight against terrorism has antiterrorist center of the Security Service of Ukraine.

Those involved in the fight against terrorism, are under state protection.

Disobedience or resistance to lawful demands of military officials who take part in anti-terrorist operations, incur liability as provided by law.

The main purpose of the anti-terrorist operation - stop extremism and illegal actions of radical groups that threaten the lives of millions of Ukrainian , to protect civilians and prevent a civil war in Ukraine.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Feb 19 2014 17:09 utc | 1


I know that I and others have repeatedly spoken to the idiocy of the average American citizen in many instance but if you'd like to see just how far from reality "educated" people in the US - i.e. the readership of the NYT is a nice cross section of fake left bourgeois idiocy - go and read the comments here from yesterday but especially the reader's picks.

Yes, I'm sure that those comments are manipulated to some degree by TPTB but - holy crap - what does this ignorance show us?

It shows us that the American people once again think that they are watching another episode of "Homeland" or "CSI" or "Survivor: Ukraine" and that even after witnessing 12+ years of blatant continuous murder and mayhem costing the lives of MILLIONS of innocent people caused by the war criminals who lead this country they all basically will follow the once again the script that TPTB have given them.

And as others have pointed out, if even ONE police officer had been even slightly harmed during a protest in an American city - much less killed - you can bet it would have been a state-sanctioned f*cking bloodbath - one which even many members of the today's American fake left would condone.

What an effing madhouse.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Feb 19 2014 17:22 utc | 2

BBC world service announced this afternoon that a special forces paratroop division was being flown in for counterterrorism operations. 500 soldiers, according to the broadcast.

Posted by: okie farmer | Feb 19 2014 17:27 utc | 3

JSorrentine @2
But that's nothing compared to the crass stupidity of many European governments:

French President Francois Hollande called "unspeakable, unacceptable, intolerable acts (by the governhment"

And that moron Cameron demonstrates yet again what a complete tosser he is:
The violence on all sides is completely unacceptable and President Yanukovych has a particular responsibility to pull back government forces and de-escalate the situation," Cameron said Wednesday.

Posted by: blowback | Feb 19 2014 17:41 utc | 4


Point taken but if a government, of, for and run by murderous war criminals - i.e. the US although the EU govs are getting closer - tells you once again that there's a new "uprising/democracy movement" that we have to support somewhere in the world and you as an American citizen DON'T reflexively and viscerally understand that everything you're hearing - after all of the death and destruction of 12+ years - is murderous propaganda bullshit then there's really not much reason for you to get up in the morning as you are actually making the world a worse place due to your incredible ignorance of reality.

Hey Fools: just stay in bed or die please. Maybe then you'll actually help save someone's life somewhere around the globe.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Feb 19 2014 18:00 utc | 5

The show is, as I remarked earlier, very similar to the one they played in Syria:

Fears of conflict escalation grow as police report numbers of stolen weapons

Ukraine's authorities admitted on Feb. 19 that massive stocks of arms were stolen from regional police and Security Service of Ukraine headquarters, and suggested that those weapons were being transported to Kyiv for use by protesters.
Protesters attacked a number of government buildings in western Ukraine on Feb. 18 during mass unrest in western Ukraine, including three regional Security Service of Ukraine departments in Lviv and Ternopil and seized the Ivano-Frankivsk department, according to Volodymyr Borodko, the deputy head of the law enforcement agency known more commonly by its SBU nickname.

“The attackers did not take into account the fact that buildings contained limited access documents, special investigation equipment and weapons,” Borodko said.

He said 267 pistols were seized by the protesters, as well as two rifles, three machine guns, 92 hand grenades, and about 15,000 pieces of ammunition.

Serhiy Burlakov, a representative of the Interior Ministry, said that also close to 300 piece of arms were stolen from police departments in Ivano-Frankivsk, Lviv, Rivne and Ternopil regions that were also taken over.

Posted by: b | Feb 19 2014 18:16 utc | 6

Long-time lurker, first-time poster.
I direct EVERYONE in my circle(and some out of it)who are interested in a deeper understanding of world events to consult MoA. The only info I get that is more informative from the Admin here are the posts of some, if not most of the regulars here.

I don't think they are willfully stupid, just cherry-picked comments to Manufacture Consent (Chomsky, 1988) for the ever-present agenda.
You are dead on re: violence against police in the US during a protest - the cops would come down with both jackboots, guns blazing and pepper-spray flying - if one of the precious Porkers were even slightly harmed.

Posted by: Prey4 Justice | Feb 19 2014 18:18 utc | 7

i sure hope this means yat th'rat,klitch,and tinny(th' tin-pot wannabe hitler) will be joining yulia in the calaboose!

Posted by: bfrakes | Feb 19 2014 18:49 utc | 8

Been following the Ukrainian threads at The comments are hilarious. In short: Oh, America, come save us from the Brutal Tyrant©

Posted by: ruralito | Feb 19 2014 18:55 utc | 9

I agree completely. I spend a lot of time with the target audience of the NYT, which J Sorrentine aptly describes as the faux left bourgeoisie, and they are by and large supportive of the security state (whic in their innocence they think won't touch the, when the time comes) and basically think the rest of the world should be like America, though perhaps not so gun-loving. This has been true since at leadt the 1940s, and it is in the population's DNA. Given that non-critical attitude towards themselves and the rest of the world, it's hardly surprising that the mass-circulation papers for that audience don't try very hard to give them the true story, which they wouldn't accept in any case. It is very hard even for well-educated persons to get a bead on what's happening. The news filter is almost perfectly opaque. The NYT was a good paper as long as it was a local paper for educated New Yorkers. Since it went national, and also public, it's been downhill all the way.

La Presse de Montréal has a qualified journalist in Kiev named Agnes Gruda, who I think might understand the language. She's been pretty good on this, unlike her stories from Syria (I think she reported from Beirut), which echoed the American party line about the gas attacks.

Posted by: Knut | Feb 19 2014 19:06 utc | 10

Yep, and there seem to be snipers.

And, like in Syria, the "radicals" seem to have the critical mass to make this look like a civil war.

And, like in Syria, "Western" backed policians have no power on the ground.

It is pure evil.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 19 2014 19:17 utc | 11

"And as others have pointed out, if even ONE police officer had been even slightly harmed during a protest in an American city - much less killed - you can bet it would have been a state-sanctioned f*cking bloodbath - one which even many members of the today's American fake left would condone."

Well, would you condone that, JSorrentine? Right now, many on this board are calling for a hard crackdown against this rioting, pointing to police officer deaths as an indication of the danger the rioters pose. So if the same thing happened in the US as you describe, with rioters causing deaths including police officer deaths, wouldn't you then be calling for a crackdown there like you are for Kiev?

Police officers in Kiev presumably are risking their lives defending the city from rioters, some losing their lives. Prey4Justice, why would these police instead be "precious porkers" if this were happening in the US?

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Feb 19 2014 19:18 utc | 12

Of course, at first glance it looks very positive that the elected government finally starts to do its job by going tougher against the terrorists.

Pondering the diverse alternatives I tend to prefer to let things go and to split Ukraine. For more than one reason.
Obviously one has to question how attractive Ukraine is - and for whom. Looking at it over a larger time frame one can't but notice that "the Ukraine" actually is 2 major regions (and some smaller ones) bundled into one rather artificial construct. Not for the least part due to this Ukraine has been illoyal, unreliable, and troublesome for many years.

Does Russia need Ukraine? By no means.
Does eu need Ukraine? Not at all; quite to the contrary it can not at all even afford Ukraine.
What was Russias interest? Basically its Krim installations and access and not having trouble. In other words, to not see Ukraine join the western, and implicitly zato, block.
What was eu's und zusa's interest? The opposite of whatever Russia wanted. In other words, to make Ukraine a remote controlled colony for zato bases.

ow, many (in the west) believe that it is vital for Russia to not allow zato to gain access to Ukraine. Frankly, this is dead wrong. For one, this would only be a quantitative extension of an already existing "danger" (with zato bases in poland, a.s.o) and not a qualitative change. More importantly though, while Russia plays angry, all those mil. zato installations are quite insignificant as a threat to Russia. The zamerican missiles are quite worthless and in case of a war neither zusa nor Russia would send any significant part of their ICBMs over Europe.

What those westerners don't understand is that those zusa/zato installations are more to control *them* and to abuse their countries as buffer zones and expendable war zones.

Now back to other reflections.

The real problem seems to be that, other than their rather superficial "macho" fight over Ukraine, 95% instigated and fueled by zusa, and parlty abusing eu as tool, *nobody* really wants Ukraine. *That* btw is also the reason for Russia to act seemingly (and probably factually) cool and desinterested and for eu to go a very brutal and destructive way.

So what is Russias real interest? Of course, if more for comfort and luxury reasons that vital ones, Russia would prefer Ukraine to not fall to the zato block. But, so I'm convinced, important is that Russia feels they have taken enough brawling, bullshitting, impertinence, and infamy by zusa and that it's about time to finally end the "american century".

And that's what Ukraine is really about. It's about zusa whose last resort (so they "think") is even more brazeness and about Russia (and China) getting ready to beat the sh*t out of the wannabe-ex-empire.

Russias investment in Ukraine in within an economically reasonable frame. And I strongly assume that the current red line is sth. like "investigate, find evidence for western criminals financing terrorists - but try to avoid tough action until friday (end of Olympic Games). And on friday you (Ukrainian government) crush the terrorists swiftly and preferably brutally (to send a message)".

One interesting point strongly on Russias side is the fact that buyable terrorists are immanently, well, buyable. Confronted with spending years in prison or talking and selling out their western ex-masters, they will doubtlessly chose the latter.

The most important fat-monster giga-trump of Russia, of course, is that zusa is all about show, bluffing, bragging, and provoking - but not being able to risk a real confrontation with Russia/China.

But there are other interesting details providing clues on the large stage. To name one, Egypt is buying weapon systems from Russia using funds provided by zaudi arabia (!)

All in all there is a clear picture: zusa and zeu have frantically trying to (ab) use Russia weak spot Sochi, among others in Ukraine and Syria. And they have failed and are running out of time.

Ceterum censeo israel americanamque delenda esse.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 19 2014 19:32 utc | 13

today in the US protestors get arrested by the hundreds, thousands, and often are injured by police. if you are Latino or Black, you are harshly treated (regularly shot by police in many cities), and charged with assault on the police. trials are a complete joke. we have had to fight being accused of threatening police with deadly weapons simply for filming them. they said our hands were deadly weapons too! meanwhile, the idiot public defenders say flat out that if you have dark skin, you will lose your trial, so don't even try, and don't testify!
I have seen so many riot cops at so many peaceful demonstrations, it makes me sick. they fly helicopters, ride horses, invite multiple goons from other places, and carry so many weapons that they literally can't name them all when testifying against citizens in court. they haven't even started the drones yet... it's nasty. and molotov cocktails? you get tried for terrorism if the FBI tries to plant the ingredients on you.
what is happening in Kiev is nothing like the US.

Posted by: anon | Feb 19 2014 19:37 utc | 14

I am worried that the US is orchestrating another takeover in Venezuela. this AlJazeera article shows protestors in various cities forming "SOS" in some coordinated western twitter-fest that begs for US intervention as if it were Syria... "Become real world leaders and help our people who are dying in front of your eyes because your silence is killing them. #SOSVenezuela"
what? another "humanitarian" intervention?
to save Venezuelans from their Bolivarian elected government? I hope Maduro doesn't make a wrong move....

Posted by: anon | Feb 19 2014 19:43 utc | 15

Mr. Pragma, I think Russia are likely concerned about their gas pipelines crossing Ukraine to Europe. I think that's why Germany has earned "Fuck the EU", as they have a long and profitable relationship with Gazprom.

Posted by: okie farmer | Feb 19 2014 19:47 utc | 16

Why cant they discuss terms for a divorce
(that is east and west Ukraine,i assume)

Posted by: chris m | Feb 19 2014 19:54 utc | 17

p.s. yes, Americans are stupid, however the crap that appears in the media represents a much smaller slice of the population that is given a much larger bullhorn. and yes, the self-proclaimed "left" that is part of TPTB is transparently just Republocrats. most people know that, and probably more people don't vote than do. elections are more like superbowl spectacles and don't offer anything that would challenge the power owners who pretend to be two parties but have identical interests.
there is one thing to keep in mind: whether Americans are informed about world events or not, they still care about each other enough to hold together as a people when the shit hits the fan. it just hasn't gotten there yet in the US.

Posted by: anon | Feb 19 2014 19:54 utc | 18

okie farmer (16)

I think Russia are likely concerned about their gas pipelines crossing Ukraine to Europe. I think that's why Germany has earned "Fuck the EU", as they have a long and profitable relationship with Gazprom.

Think again. That gas is way more important for Germany to get than for Russia to sell. Furthermore, no matter who is in control in Ukraine, will want to keep the gas flowing; for themselves and for transit fees.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 19 2014 20:00 utc | 19

Good post, b.

Inkan1969 @ 12: The analogy in the U.S., and it is a limited one, is what happened when there was the plutocrat-funded and organized Tea Party uprising in 2009-2010. People showed up to anti-healthcare rallies with rifles and hip holsters and packed district congressional meetings, shouting down their interlocutors. Generally the police looked the other way.

If these Tea Party "patriots" had taken over the nation's capital, erecting barricades and occupying buildings, you bet I would favor a hard crackdown.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Feb 19 2014 20:05 utc | 20

ditto - good post b. my question - are they paid fascists? ps that was a good article in the globe and mail by doug saunders that you pointed out.. sometimes some relevant news does get shared in a more mainstream news outlet. i think i shared that link a week ago when i read it.

Posted by: james | Feb 19 2014 20:25 utc | 21

@ Mr.Pragma,very interesting analysis,Thank you.But aren't you afraid that Russia Federation will be next if Ukraine is divided,because to me that is what it is all about in the big picture,starting with the unrest in Daghestan and the Caucasus region?That is after all their plan for Syria,Iran, and Russia and China,not that Syria is in the same league as Russia/China.But that is their plan for every country that stands up to them and is multi ethnic.

Posted by: Nobody | Feb 19 2014 20:29 utc | 22

"I am worried that the US is orchestrating another takeover in Venezuela."

It is certainly trying. And has been, without any let up, for many years now. \The same is true of Ecuador, Bolivia and, of course, Cuba.

But there is one very big difference between these situations and those in either of Syria or Ukraine which is that there is little doubt that the socialist governments in Latin America are genuinely popular. Many are prepared to die to defend their governments' achievements, most of which have to do with redistributing wealth and power. Given the history of America the fact that the race/colour divisions tend to be related to wealth and power, support for these socialist governments tends to come from poor people of colour defending themselves from neo-liberal capitalism/imperialism.

In the Ukraine the "protesters" are not, so far as I know, fighting a government bent on redistributing wealth from rich to poor, or defending social wealth from privatisation.

The sad truth is that, if Yankuvich were promoting the redistribution of wealth from rich to poor, or extending social services, or guaranteeing employment he would not be in power.

I hope that Yankuvitch survives this blatant imperial attempt to subvert Ukrainian independence and build a cordon sanitaire around Russia.

But I have no illusions as to the reason for his apparent impotence- the fascists are getting away with murder in Kiev for a variety of reasons. One of them,I would suggest, is that Yankuvitch cannot mobilise the support of the working class except on narrow ethnic and linguistic bases.

If his government were promoting Bolivarian policies he would enjoy as much support in the west as in the east. Furthermore, Ukraine far from fearing "western" public opinion falling in behind the Empire, would inspire millions of Europeans into demanding re-distributive policies in their own countries.

The US has been using protests such as this one in Kiev to subvert its opponents for decades. They usually worked but not In Cuba where even a large scale armed invasion was defeated, by a united people defending a social revolution.
In the modern world, independence from the Empire is only possible in concert with social revolution. And vice versa.

Posted by: bevin | Feb 19 2014 20:30 utc | 23

Imagine would happen in US if rioters had killed 9 cops! '

Posted by: Andoheb | Feb 19 2014 20:42 utc | 24

Mr. Pragma,

"That gas is way more important for Germany to get than for Russia to sell."

thus, fuck the EU. And, there is no evidence that those lines would be safe under a EU-hating regime in Ukraine, which if the fascists come to power will be exactly what will happen. I would predict that there will be long deadly conflict over who controls those pipelines if Yanukovych is overthrown.

Posted by: okie farmer | Feb 19 2014 20:57 utc | 25

Nobody (22)

But aren't you afraid that Russia Federation will be next if Ukraine is divided

No, not at all. Because the situation is very much different in many regards.

That starts with Russia having a clear position, which btw. is originally not anti-american but sth like "We have enough land and resources. Just respect us, don't disturb us, and let us play our (quite reasonable) role in the world befitting a major power".
Ukraine, on the other hand, is in more or less problems or even turmoil since more than a decade and does have changing, typically opportunistic positions, basically trying out to play Russia and eu countries against each other to profit.

While not completely insignificant militarily, Ukraine has next to no military weight, while Russia could single-handedly crush the whole zeu without too much of an effort.

Furthermore, and quite different from what western propa-presstitutes blabber, the Russian opposition is by no means completely against Putin or for zusa/zeu. For some weird reasons though, a situation that is just normal in other countries is painted as strange and unlikely in Russia; namely that different political groups in a country have different positions on diverse political issues but are (usually) united in protecting their countries souvereignty.
So, while there are - of course. After all, Russia is a democratic country - different groups and parties representing and following different approaches to many political issues, basically no significant party wants to sell out to zusa/zeu and even many opposition parties favour Putin as president (and if only for lacking any alternative coming even close).

The stories spread in the west about hundereds of thousands or even "major parts of the people" being strongly opposed to Putin and fighting him and his "repressive regime" are zusa sponsored bullshit propaganda - and Russians know that.

Also, Putin has recognized the typical cia approach and has taken care of that by those wildly criticised (in the west; and with a reason) laws - not forbidding! but - forcing all NGOs to provide information ontheir income/sponsors.
In other words, Russia, unlike Ukraine which was basically surprised cold, is very well prepared for zusa "colour revolutions" and similar dirty works.

Also very important, Russians have made very strong progress in pretty every regard (income, housing, edu, med., ...) in the last decade, while Ukraines standards have brutally fallen since they became a state. Obviously, disappointed and poor people can be much easier manipulated that people largely content with their state and government and seeing and feeling progress in their lives.

Last but not least, you should forget that widely propagated line of Russia being the final target, the final stone after Ukraine ... and ... have fallen. The reality is different. It is that zusa already *did* try and relentlessly tries to instigate turmoil in Russia - and consistently fail.

So, one can say that Russia defense against zusas dirty attacks is well proven and well working.

Ceterum censeo israel americanamque delenda esse.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 19 2014 21:06 utc | 26

@ Anon 15

I am worried that the US is orchestrating another takeover in Venezuela.

I'm also worried, Venezuela is getting pretty rocky, but the majority of the people there are politically intuned. Best documentary on Venezuela's first color revolution is The Revolution Will Not Be Televised filmed by an Irish documentary crew who went just to make a documentary about Chavez and got caught in the middle of a coup. Shows perfectly how the oligarch run media whipped up a frenzy with US backing and then attempted a coup and how it ended.

On Ukraine, hopefully Yanukovich has used this time (the last few months) to infiltrate undercover spies into the groups, so they can shut them down with good intel and create discord. These fascists are dangerous and need to be stamped out quickly before they spread.

Posted by: Colm O' Toole | Feb 19 2014 21:09 utc | 27

I have to throw up due EU's hypocrisy and their fanatical attempt to create regime change.
What is wrong with these people!?

Why arent Ukraine kicking out the EU ambassadors?!

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 19 2014 21:14 utc | 28

the western mediais talking of 'romantic revolutionary feelings' in Kiev as if this were paris 1968! while edging their bets...
but would they be so sangyuine if London Paris or Berlin were burning and if neonazis led revolution in London? The recent case of the Quennelle in Paris and the revelation that france is largely under zionist control, using the Trademark 'Holocaust'(patent pending) makes me wnod er how they will feel when the ukrainan neonazis turn up on paris streets

Posted by: brian | Feb 19 2014 21:36 utc | 29

I smell some hypothetical moral equivalency coming from somewhere.

First, of all, the US-backed protests in the Ukraine should be seen simply as another front in America's 21st century war of aggression against anyone who stands in it way.

This is not a protest. This is not a movement. This is not a demonstration. This is yet another violent attempt by the US and its lackeys to overthrow another sovereign nation.

The US wants everyone - but especially Americans and ESPECIALLY those who sided with the Occupy movement even passively - to think of this as a protest just like Occupy.

That was the psychological buy-in.

I've always criticized Occupy - and gotten into arguments about it here - as it has been documented that many of the same "Color Revolutionaries" were present at Occupy and therefore I believe it was a "movement" concocted to satisfy a number of objectives: 1) provide TPTB with a safe non-political "pressure valve" mechanism for an economically depressed US public 2) show the rest of the disgruntled American public what would happen to them if they joined in by having goons blatantly and brutally smash heads for the cameras with no repercussions and 3) psychologically create an "empathic" link between this domestic "protest" with the fronts in the US aggressive campaign against sovereign nations.

I do not think it was a "coincidence" that the Arab Spring - a chain of US-backed "color revolutions" - and Occupy came so closely on the heels of each other. That was the effing point.

What better way to sell more war to a war-weary American public than to dress up - with the help of Amnesty, HRW, etc. - all of the new fronts in the US war of aggression - Syria, Venezuela, Libya, Ukraine etc - as "struggles against tyranny" just like Occupy especially as the people most vocal against more war would be the largely the EXACT SAME people that would be participating in Occupy. How convenient.

Now that we have some distance from all of these events, it appears so malevolently clever that I can't possibly think that it wasn't orchestrated. Yeah, it's just another "crazy conspiracy theory"...

Lastly, the cops in the US daily - and that is no exaggeration - murder, maim and imprison innocent people with zero repercussions just as their counterparts in the military do abroad.

However, due to the propaganda saturation in this country - "Support the Troops", 1,000 cop/detective/CIA/FBI shows on every single night, etc - just speaking out against the cops and/or military is up there with calling Israel a fascist, apartheid, genocidal pariah state: it just isn't done. Just as the fake bourgeois left in the US won't call out Israel - it's getting better slowly - they also won't "go there" and really call out the thugs that needlessly kill and imprison innocents domestically and over seas. Sure, they hate war but love the troops who make war. They might hate what some "bad apple" cops might do at times but ICE-T and LL Cool J are both cops, dawg, so it's all good.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Feb 19 2014 21:42 utc | 30

Does anyone have sense about Ukrainian public's opinion towards these armed gangs terrorizing downtown Kiev? I am aware that the country seems to be split about 50:50 between those who lean towards Russia and those towards Europe. But what do the non-fascist Ukrainian nationalist think about all of this? It is hard to imagine that they would support an all out civil war. At some point the fascist thugs should lose popular support.

Maybe it is too late for any anti-civil war sentiments to influence events. The next step will probably have to be an effort by the government to use the army to shut down the thugs. This then raises the prospect that the Ukrainian nationalists in the army will defect to the opposition. This is probably what the US would like to see if it hasn't already been actively subverting the Ukraine military. That would likely result in Ukraine breaking apart and the US, NATO and the EU could easily control the western provinces that become a new state.

Posted by: ToivoS | Feb 19 2014 21:43 utc | 31


In the US they are precious Porkers because they pepper-spray unarmed and peaceful Occupy Wall Street protesters and call it self-defense.
I did not mean to imply that the police in the Ukraine are acting improper. In fact I believe I've read here that they have been remarkably restrained for too long in the face of deliberate provocations.
This crackdown is long overdue. These so-called "protesters" have gotten away with much more than they certainly would have in NYC, by far.
Now it becomes a push to foment open civil war in Ukraine. Victoria Nudelman should face the gallows.

Posted by: Prey4 Justice | Feb 19 2014 21:55 utc | 32

Perhaps US and NATO opponents should give the West a taste of its own insurgency fostering medicine.

Posted by: Andoheb | Feb 19 2014 22:12 utc | 33

The EU/US are playing a very dangerous game that could set the whole of Europe in flames.

They're ABSOLUTELY determined to take Ukraine by any mean possible...All I've hearing today on the BBC is much noise about some "peaceful protesters" - y'know, the same "peaceful protesters" in Syria, Libya etc etc.

Seems Yanukovic finally developed a backbone to address things before it's too late.. I say he MUST kick out the entire US embassy staff.

Posted by: Zico | Feb 19 2014 22:30 utc | 34

Well it looks like Yanukovich has just agreed to another truce with three opposition leaders that seem to have zero control over what is going on in the streets:

Posted by: ToivoS | Feb 19 2014 22:31 utc | 35

Posted by: JSorrentine | Feb 19 2014 22:31 utc | 36

On the Diane Rehm Show today, the panelists mentioned the economic arrangement with the EU a few times in passing. Almost uniformly, they described Yanukovych's opposition to its "reforms" because it would hurt his oligarch crony buddies. There was no connection to how the EU's "reforms" had imposed austerity upon the economies of its poorer members, like Greece.

Posted by: Rusty Pipes | Feb 19 2014 22:52 utc | 37

Latest from Der Spiegel: ceasefire in Ukraine. Hoffnung auf Entspannung: Janukowitsch stimmt Waffenstillstand zu:

Rund 40 Stunden wüteten die Auseinandersetzungen in Kiew, mindestens 26 Menschen starben. Am Mittwochabend zeichnete sich Entspannung ab: Präsident Janukowitsch einigte sich mit der Opposition auf einen vorläufigen Waffenstillstand. Unklar blieb zunächst, ob und wie lange der hält.

Kiew - Die Wende in Kiew kam unerwartet. Am späten Mittwochabend vereinbarten Präsident Wiktor Janukowitsch und die Opposition eine vorläufige Waffenruhe. Das teilten beide Seiten übereinstimmend mit. Ein Sturm von Sicherheitskräften auf den zentralen Unabhängigkeitsplatz stehe derzeit nicht zur Debatte, erklärten die Oppositionsführer Arsenij Jazenjuk und Vitali Klitschko nach einem Treffen mit Präsident Janukowitsch.

Nun sollten Verhandlungen aufgenommen werden, um weiteres Blutvergießen zu verhindern, hieß es auf der Internetseite des Präsidenten. Am Donnerstag wollen sich beide Seiten zu Gesprächen treffen, sagte Klitschko.

Posted by: lysias | Feb 19 2014 23:50 utc | 38

Here's confirmation of the ceasefire from President Yanukovich's Web site:

19.02.2014 22:51 Press office of President Viktor Yanukovych President held meeting with members of Working Group on Settlement of Political Crisis

President of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych held a meeting with Chairman of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine Volodymyr Rybak and members of the Working Group on the Settlement of Political Crisis.

The meeting was attended by Head of the Presidential Administration of Ukraine Andriy Kliuyev, First Deputy Head of the Presidential Administration of Ukraine Andriy Portnov, Acting Minister of Justice Olena Lukash and leaders of opposition parties Arseniy Yatsenyuk, Vitali Klitschko, Oleh Tiahnybok.

Following the meeting, the parties declared:

1. Truce

2. Beginning of negotiations aimed at cessation of bloodshed and stabilization of the situation in the country for the sake of civil peace.

Posted by: lysias | Feb 19 2014 23:55 utc | 39

37) Ukraine has a third of the per capita GDP from Greece. Poland, which is always quoted as success is much worse off than Greece, with a purchasing power of slightly more than half of Greek purchasing power. Greece is doing much better than the whole of Eastern Europe - and Turkey. You would not know it listening to the news.

If the EU has a problem to bail out 10 million Greek people how can they propose to bail out 45 million Ukrainians? The goals of the fascists turning violent in Ukraine cannot be understood in terms of EU membership yes or no, they are likely completely local and they are likely terrorising the local population. To encourage them to poke a finger into the eye of Russia is simply criminal, nothing else.

There is a difference from Syria:

German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Russian President Vladimir Putin have agreed to do everything necessary to keep violence in Ukraine from getting worse, she said on Wednesday.

Merkel said she had spoken to Putin by telephone and "we agreed to continue to do everything so that there is no escalation of violence".

"I informed him that French, German and Polish foreign ministers planned to go to Kiev tomorrow (Thursday)," Merkel said on the sidelines of a meeting with French President Francois Hollande in Paris. "We decided to keep very close contact with Russia."

Posted by: somebody | Feb 20 2014 0:44 utc | 40

bevin @23

Excellent comment!

Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Feb 20 2014 0:49 utc | 41

@26,Mr.Pragma,thanks for your response.I wasn't thinking one second about the pseudo russian opposition that exist only in the deranged minds of the zusa ,zeu and co because ``i know having followed Russia closely for a long time that this trojan horse is insignificant in Russia and than all russian history is there to prove the russian love for their country-that is a subject,sovereignty that no one would question in Russia,What I meant is the means employed that is extremist fascists in Kiev,and extremist islamists that have nothing to do with Islam but are a derivation from the wahabi sect in other theaters around the world.,That is the danger that Syria,Iran(Baluchistan),Russia and China face.It is the privatization of war with a mix of local criminals and mercenaries sustained from behind by zato.And the purpose is to either destroy a country from within and let it implode or destabilize it so as to restrain it within its own territory.

Posted by: Nobody | Feb 20 2014 1:07 utc | 42

@ 40 somebody

If the EU has a problem to bail out 10 million Greek people how can they propose to bail out 45 million Ukrainians?

Agree from a pragmatic point of view destabilzing Ukraine does not profit the EU in any way. The EU would be better served with stability on its borders, the gas lines running smoothly, and working to repair its own economy while maintaining a friendly relationship with Russia as a hedge against the US. Not by taking on obligations of a massive broken economy.

From the moral point of view, backing Fascists to overthrow a democratic government also cannot be defended. It is against democratic principles and also the principle on non intervention in other countries affairs.

On top of all that from a strategic point of view the whole thing is unlikely to work anyway. These parties that are rebelling are not popular on the ground. The main party rebelling, Svoboda barely got 10% of the vote in 2012. Enough support to cause trouble but not enough to succeed.

Posted by: Colm O' Toole | Feb 20 2014 1:33 utc | 43

'But there is one very big difference between these situations and those in either of Syria or Ukraine which is that there is little doubt that the socialist governments in Latin America are genuinely popular.
Posted by: bevin | Feb 19, 2014 3:30:55 PM | 23'

ahem...syrias govt is popular and presient Assad is VERY popular:

Posted by: brian | Feb 20 2014 1:47 utc | 44

the reason why there are no revolutions in US or Iran is neither has a US embassy

Posted by: brian | Feb 20 2014 1:48 utc | 45

Posted by: Colm O' Toole | Feb 19, 2014 8:33:32 PM | 43

did u know that Jewish Bernie Levy (Jihad Bernie) has allied with the neonazis of the ukraine colour revolution? this is association is worth spreading on the soclai media...

Posted by: brian | Feb 20 2014 1:59 utc | 46

Nobody (42)

Uh, O.K. Well, that's very easy to answer. They would be immediately taken down.

And btw. rest assured that neither zusa/zeu/zato nor zaudi arabia and their plethora of terrorist groups would be suicidal enough to try that. What casually happens, like before Sochi, are some disturbed lunatics who reliably provoke a swift, albeit discrete, reaction by the Russian security apparatus.

Trying this on a larger scale by, say zusa, would doubtlessly trigger a reaction by Russia that would be way beyond what zusa can digest.

One reasons for misunderstanding Russias power quite probably lays in the fact that Russia, unlike zusa/zato is rather content with what it got both in land and in resources; so it is neither a necessity nor in Russias character to terrorize the world with war. On the other hand, of course, the extremely hight mil. presence and the belligerence of zusa (mis)lead many to think that zusa/zato must be mighty powerful while Russia looks comparably shy.

That is about as wrong as it can get.

Looking at all relevant factors like quality of soldiers, quality of weapons, precision, lethality etc. of weapons, defensive and offensive capabilitites, Russia would currently probably be roughly on par with zusa in an *offensive* scenario - which, however is highly unlikely.
Looking at a defensive, denial, interdiction or similar situation, however, typically within Russias near to medium abroad, Russia would doubtlessly and comfortably crush zusa.

As for your question the event horizon zusa needed to calculate in the event of attacking Russia more or less directly, say by going over the famous red line with Syria, or worse by instigating something close to a civil war (a *very, very* remote possibility), would be an escalation to a nuclear war, which would be even more tragic for zusa. I'm therefore convinced that zusa will do its utmost to avoid anything that could even just be misinterpreted by Russia as a direct confrontation.

This is even more true when considering China. For two reasons:
China is way more vulnerable in that regard (regional, racial or other turmoil) than Russia and at the same time more dangerous (Don't forget: While zusa is almost exclusively using its mil. as the tool to reach its goals, its core is ultimately about economy and finance). At the same time militarily zusas chances against China (still) are (not that great but) considerably better than against Russia and China poses a greater danger because it's the coming superpower on the field that concerns zusa most (economy and finance).
Secondly, China almost certainly would join any war involving Russia and zusa simply because Russia poses no danger to it while zusa does, and because it (currently and probably for some time) happens to be on friendly terms and linked to Russia on multiple levels (e.g. BRIC, SCO).

So, all in all: No. zusa will not dare to go much further than small scale harassment like what they already did, hardly reaching even the nuisance level for Russia.

That's btw. also the reason for me to react somewhat pissed by all those daily "obama farted this" or "nyt or wp farted that" stories and discussions. The only reason I can see for that is the human laziness that leads us to focus on what we're used to. Because, sorry to put it that frankly, zusa is a completely broken ex-superpower that lost pretty much any significance it once may have had. The importance of obama, mc cain or other zamerican politicians blabbering whatsoever is about the same of klitchko. Virtually null.

BTW, a funny (but probably not far off) thought that crossed my mind these days: I tend to think that what happens now in Ukraine is pretty close to being a blue-print for what's going to happen quite soon on a global scale.
zusa had it's time and it screaming, bragging, delusional voice has been heard and it even, like the terrorists it instigated and sponsored in Ukraine, had some kind of de facto power. It's destiny, however, also will be quite close to that of the Ukrainian terrorists.

Ceterum censeo israel americanamque delenda esse.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 20 2014 2:02 utc | 47

Posted by: lysias | Feb 19, 2014 6:55:41 PM | 39

snigger...who else finds the words 'ceasefire' applied to ostensibly 'peaceful protestors' risible?!

Posted by: brian | Feb 20 2014 2:08 utc | 48


Right you are with quite some of your comments.

One point possibly worthy to elaborate:

Most military forces in most countries are drilled down to their core to stay out of the civil area (except humanitarian operations) and they usually properly stick to it. Typically one price to pay for that (if one wants to call it like that) is that the military forces of any halfway civilized country form some kind of secondary/parallel layer to civil society (I don't mean this critical or negative).

This is one and almost certainly a major reason for the Ukrainian military staying pretty much outside the whole maidan thing.
I remember well when some days ago the terrorists attacked (and I think even stormed) an officers club. I told my wife "Now those assholes have triggered the military and brought them up against themselves. Now they are dead meat within days".

No military worth its salt will tolerate rioters and terrorists to attack them. Won't happen. Maybe they'll do it rather discreetly (I don't think so), maybe they'll do it bluntly and brutally. But they *will* go against the terrorists and crush them. If, in the worst of cases, Yanukovich would turn against the military playing his politicians games he would be crushed, too.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 20 2014 2:24 utc | 49

Unfortunately, it does not appear that Yanukovich has the balls for the job.

It keeps amazing me how the MSM can keep ignoring the facts that these people are clearly armed, that the parliament and president are democratically elected..

Its as if the last 30 years did not happen and we didn't all watch it happening in front of our eyes

Posted by: OAB | Feb 20 2014 2:31 utc | 50

Guess who are some of the commanders of those once peaceful protesters?
IDF officer (Israeli army) and another 300 Jewish fighters began military instructors "Maidan"

Site of the Association of Jewish Organizations and Communities of Ukraine (, the head of which is the main PR manager "evromaydana" Joseph Zisels covering Nazis Tyagniboka (Frotmana) reared head of the European Jewish Union I. Kolomoiskiy (, published an interview with Michael Gold with some Israeli who is the author of the interview as "one of the main people in the complex system of self-defense and barricades on the Maidan Hrushevskoho", without mentioning him by name.

Although the Jewish media and represent his "dove of peace", you should soberly assess the situation interception protest when the officer recognized a foreign army in direct control "Ukrainian riot."

Below are excerpts from an interview with this anonymous - Israeli army officer (IDF) - translated from Ukrainian and Jewish portals israel7 news.israelinfo:

"What I saw at first disappointed - everything was so disorganized - lack of leadership, a coherent strategy, etc. Then, quite unexpectedly, I got kind of control the course of this confrontation, although at first did not believe it, "his war." Organized defense, building barricades, and later, at the request of the people, took command of one of the units. "

"I have been several times on the Maidan, listened wandering politicians, irresponsible statements of opposition leaders, realizing that people can commit follies. What happened when after a 7-hour negotiations with the guarantor the trio entered the scene and began to test the waters for a compromise. People sent them and began to move towards Hrushevskoho going to storm, absolutely nothing in the military sense. I served in the Israeli army, have a clear idea of counter-terrorist operations, he took part in them, and just realized that now shed more blood . Counting the people on the barricades and making sure that the balance of forces is absolutely unacceptable for offensive action, I offered to take a defensive position and strengthen the redoubts. Today, these barricades look like they should look. Final same confidence that I was there, where it should be, came after the storming of the Ukrainian House, where I am, the words "Pirkei Avot," trying to be a man in a place where there are no people. 1,500 people tried to seize the building, where there were 200 soldiers of internal troops, mostly students, and reach up to these guys they - blood be shed on the other side. We started the negotiation process, to complete the liberation of the Ukrainian House without a single shot and injured. "

"Only in my unit four Israelis with military experience, who, like me, brought on Maidan desire to avoid useless sacrifice. I would say that our whole group "blue helmets", by analogy with UN peacekeepers. The decor is quite nervous at the Independence, many people want to avenge the blood of the victims, even more tired of the inaction of the opposition - all these hotheads full of illusions about the real battles and, accordingly, can not imagine the consequences. They also do not realize that on the other side are people too, so our actions must not defame Independence "with a human face."

"I talk to the first days of the activists of the" right sector, "UNA-UNSO - with all those people that in peacetime would be unlikely to find common ground. In this position myself exclusively as a Jew, and religious. Under my dozens of resistance fighters - Georgians, Azerbaijanis, Armenians, Russian - who do not even try to speak Ukrainian - and nor have we encountered a manifestation of intolerance towards each other. All of them with pronounced respect for my religion - already know what I eat, what not to eat, etc. and it does not cause any rejection. "

"Well-organized extremists - is a myth", - assured the Jewish activist Maidan. - "People that I run, much better organized than the radicals. We respond much faster and more efficiently. In my direct supervision of 30 people, and I can mobilize up to 300. Neither OUN or "Right sector" such luxuries can not afford. "

The views expressed by the anonymous "Jewish defender Maidan", almost literally reflect the views of Rabbi Pinchas Rosenfeld, who has published an interview with the same newspaper columnist Kiev "Hadashot" Michael Gold ( Rabbi proves that Jews are required to support the "struggle for a just cause," which leads the people of Ukraine: "The Jewish people returned to the stage of history not to sit on it. Not necessarily be at the top of the column, but I think it is important to support the aspiration of Ukrainians to freedom and justice, the desire, to raise this nation, and with it all of humanity to a new level. "

Finally, we give the words of the same Jewish instructors from the IDF: "I believe that the presence of Jews on Independence - it is not just the name of the consecration of the Creator - a dialogue between Jews c future power. This is what will enable tomorrow Jews live and work in this country. And a significant counterweight to those who shout about "non-Jewish business." With God's help when I can open my face, no one will say that the Jews holed up. "

Posted by: ProPeace | Feb 20 2014 3:52 utc | 51

Almost nobody among Polish people likes the perspective to have regime change in Ukraine, because their realize their the core of the so called opposition is made up of fanatic, fascist nationalists loudly supporting the past deeds and celebrating the memory of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (there have been many monuments built in Western Ukraine for thanks to the Soros Orange Revolutions) known for unthinkable massacres of the Polish population in Eastern Poland: The virtuosity of crime - At least 136 torture methods:
A sort of "virtuosity crime," writes Dr. Alexander Korman in his paper "Ukrainian Insurgent Army in the areas Second Polish Republic and its relationship to the Polish people," published in the journal "The Rim" No. 35/1999.

"Depolonizacja eastern lands, started back to the time of the First Republic Polish, from the first partition of Polish -1772 years by the occupying powers: Russia and Austria, was later applied consistently and the already completed in the territory of the Second Polish Republic by terrorists OUN-UPA, basically in 1945 .

As a result, individual killings, then murders and massacres collective Polish borderland population, terrorists CNS, and later the OUN-UPA during the Second World War - in 1939-1945 and a few years after its completion, killed - assuming estimated - about 500,000 Poles , and most died in such terrible circumstances, and using such sophisticated torture, especially physical and sometimes mental, that civilized man of the twentieth century can not conceive and believe it. Torturers OUN-UPA kill the desire and the need to kill in order to mock and soak up the savage cruelty of his, to revel in the sight of torture, torment both adults and children and defenseless victims of despair.

Famous Russian writer Alexander Solzhenitsyn mentioned more than 50 torture methods used in interrogation by the NKVD for example, removing the nails or body scorching-hot cigarette. OUN-UPA members - Bandera overtaken much of the NKVD using much more numerous and cruel forms of torture against the Poles and sometimes against their compatriots not accept their criminal practices. UPA performed in essentially criminal solidarity among its members. Each candidate for member of the UPA have to first make the crime of murder "Lach" for example, in a mixed marriage Polish-Ukrainian kill the mother or father Pole Pole, or someone designated such child to be able to be allowed to take the oath and become a member of the UPA. Variety applicable to Poles of torture and cruelty, and deprivation of life by shooting, it was not arbitrary discretion of the perpetrator. In general, the type of torture or cruelty was determined by the so-called Bandera. revolutionary committee.

For example, the mention - on request - some use cases - by terrorists OUN-UPA-in the practice of physical torture and atrocities against men, women and children of Polish nationality, which I found in the result of many years of independent research:

1 Sticking large and thick nail into the skull gtowy.
2 Peel the skin of the head of hair (scalping).
3 Asking a hammer blow to the skull ax head.
4 Asking a hammer ax blow on the forehead.
5 Engraving on his forehead "eagle".
6 Sticking a bayonet in the temple of the head.
7 Plucking out one eye.
8 Selecting two eyes.
9 Cutting the nose.
10 Pruning of one ear.
12 Razing both ears.
13 Perforation of ear pointed thick wire through the other ear.
14 Cutting off lips.
15 Clipping tongue.
16 Slits the throat.
17 Stretching slits throat and tongue through the opening to the outside.
18 Slits the throat and inserting into the hole rags.
19 Knocking out teeth.
20 Breaking jaws.
21 Disruption of mouth from ear to ear.
22 Gagging tow the truck still living victims.
23 Undercutting the neck with a knife or sickle.
24 Asking a blow with an ax in the neck.
25 Vertical cutting with ax of head.
26 Screwing head back.
27 Take the pulp out of your head by putting their head in the clamps tightened the screw.
28 Cutting the head with a sickle.
29 Cutting the head with a scythe.
30 Cutting off the head with an ax.
31 Blow with an ax in the neck.
32 Stab wounds in the head.
33 Cutting and pulling narrow strips of skin from the back.
34 Different stab wounds on his back.
35 Bows a bayonet in the back.
36 Breaking the rib bones of the chest.
37 Blow with a knife or bayonet through the heart or around the heart.
38 Stab wounds with a knife or bayonet in the chest.
39 Trimming women breast with a sickle.
40 Trimming women breast and sprinkling wounds with salt .
41 Cutting of victims male genitals with a sickle.
42 Cutting the trunk in half with chainsaw for carpentry.
43 Abdominal stab wounds with a knife or bayonet.
44 Piercing the belly of a pregnant woman with a bayonet.
45 Cutting stomach and intestines stretching out in adults.
46 Cutting belly woman in advanced pregnancy and in place of the removed fetus, such as the insertion of a live cat and stitching the stomach.
47 Cutting belly and pouring into the interior boiling water.
48 Cutting the abdomen of a woman and inserting stones into it and then her throwing into the river.
49 Cutting pregnant women belly and throwing to the inside broken glass.
50 Pulling out a vein from groin down to the feet.
51 Inserting burning iron into the vagina.
52 Inserting pine cone from the apex side into the vagina.
53 Inserting sharpened pin into the vagina and pushing up into the throat, inside and out.
54 Cutting the front of the torso women with gardening knife, from the vagina up to her neck and leaving the insides on the outside.
55 Hanging the victims by the bowels.
56 Inserting glass bottle into the vagina and crushing it.
57 Inserting glass bottle into the anus and crushing it.
58 Cutting belly and pouring into the interior food for hungry pigs, which is a food tore along with intestines and other innards.
59 Cutting off one hand with an axe.
60 Cutting off both hands with an axe.
61 Perforation of the hand with a knife.
62 Cutting the fingers on the hand with a knife.
63 Cutting the hand.
64 Scorching the inside of the hand on a hot coal kitchen countertop.
65 Cutting off a heel.
66 Cutting off a feet above the calcaneus.
67 Breaking the bones of the hands of the few places with a blunt instrument.
68 Violations of the leg bones in several places with a blunt instrument.
69 Cutting the trunk half Chainsaw carpentry, obłożonego two sides boards.
70 Cutting the trunk half special chainsaw wood.
71 Pruning Chainsaw both legs.
72 Sprinkling related leg coals.
73 Nailing hands to the table, and the feet to the floor.
74 Nailing on the cross in the church and toes nails.
75 Blows with an axe in the back of the head, the victims laid out previously the head to the floor.
76 Blows with an axe throughout the body.
77 Chopping entire body into parts with an axe.
78 Live Breaking bones in the arms and legs so. treadmill.
79 Nailing the tongue with a knife to the table a small child who later hung on it.
80 Dissecting the child with a knife into pieces and scattering them around.
81 Ripping tummies of children.
82 Nailing bayonet small child to the table.
83 Hanging baby male genitals on the door handle.
84 Breaking the leg joints of the child.
85 Breaking the joints of the hand of the child.
86 Suffocation of the child by imposing on him a variety of rags.
87 Throw into the deep wells of small children alive.
88 Throwing the baby in the flames of the burning building.
89 Breaking head baby by taking him by the legs and hitting the wall or stove.
90 Hanging by the legs monk at the pulpit in the church.
91 Sticking a child at stake.
92 Women hanging on a tree upside down and mistreatment by cutting her breasts and tongue, belly slit eyes and selecting knives and cutting off pieces of the body.
93 Nailing a small child at the door.
94 Hanging on a tree head up.
95 Hanging on a tree legs up.
96 Hanging on a tree legs up and Ottoman head from the bottom of the fire lit under the head fire.
97 Dropping down from the rock.
98 Drowning in a river.
99 Drowning by throwing to a deep water well.
100 Melting in the well and forcing a sacrifice stones.
101 Stabbing forks, and then burning the body pieces on fire.
102 The casting of an adult in flames focuses on forest clearing around which the Ukrainian girls sang and danced to the sounds of harmony.
103 Sticking to the wheels through the abdomen and fortify it in the ground.
104 Clinging to the tree man and shooting him as the bull's-eye.
105 Keeping naked or in underwear in the cold.
106 Strangulation by twisting soaped rope around his neck, called a lariat.
107 Dragging the body along the street using a rope clamped around his neck.
108 Legs of a woman clinging to the two trees, and hands over his head and abdomen trenching from the crotch to the chest.
109 Disruption of the body by means of chains.
110 Dragging on the ground tied to a horse-drawn vehicle.
111 Dragging on the street mother of three children, strapped into a car with a horse and carriage in such a way that one leg mother tied a chain to the car, and the other to her mother's legs one leg oldest child, and the other leg tied leg oldest child younger child, and to the other leg younger child, tied leg youngest child.
112 Body piercing through the barrel of a rifle.
113 Compression victims with barbed wire.
114 Squeezing together the two victims with barbed wire.
115 Squeezing more victims together with barbed wire.
116 Periodic tightening of the torso with barbed wire and every few hours pouring cold water on the victim to recover consciousness and perception of pain and suffering.
117 Burying the victim to the ground standing up to his neck and leaving her like this.
118 Burying alive into the ground to the neck and head with a scythe shear later.
119 Disruption of the body half by horses.
120 Disruption of the body half by clinging to the two victims with bent trees and then releasing them.
121 Throw adults in the flames of a burning building.
122 Tan sacrifices previously doused with kerosene.
123 The cladding victims around the straw-sheaf and its arson, thus making the torch Nero.
124 Sticking in the back and leave it in the body of the victim.
125 Sticking baby fork and throwing him in flames of fire.
126 Eruption of the skin with a facial razor blades.
127 Sticking oak dowels between the ribs.
128 Hanging on the barbed wire.
129 Peel the skin from the flesh wounds and pouring ink and dousing her with boiling water.
130 Attach the trunk to the back and throwing knives at me.
131 Binding - chipped hands with barbed wire.
132 Fatal blows with a shovel.
133 Hand nailing to the threshold of the apartment.
134 Perforation of the wheels of the children through.
135 Body dragging on the ground, legs connected cord.
136 Nailing small children around the roadside trees growing thick, thereby forming a so-called. "Wreaths".

The above-mentioned methods of torture and cruelty are only examples and do not include the full set used by terrorists OUN-UPA methods of killing - Polish children, women and men in agony. Ingenuity of torture was rewarded. Perpetrators of torture and cruelty - that terrorists OUN-UPA - a device sometimes gruesome scene to mock and sneer at victims. For example, the trunk with his arms and legs cut off and trimmed the head of the victim, were planning to "sit down" at the wall exterior residential house, exposing them to the public "laughingstock." Sometimes, sacrifices intestines hung on the wall inside the Chamber of Ukrainian inscription - "Poland from sea to sea." Often, following the massacre of Poles Bandera carriage rode through the village singing and cheering to the accompaniment of harmony . known is the case of the murder of porter in the church and cut off his head and tease in a way that Banderovites torso propped on the front and back of the bench and into the hands of the complex as if in prayer put his own head. Otherwise, the severed head of the victim gave Ukrainian terrorists children to play - kicking it like a football. mental torture were asked, for example, parents are forced to watch particularly sophisticated torture their children, or a child ... "

Ks. A.Kubasik mentions in his book also such torture such as: infant nailing to the wall with the caption "Polskij Orel" Stripping people with skin and sprinkling with salt, Pile children on pegs in the fence, tearing children in half, stewing barbed wire, burying alive in the ground or only the neck so that you can head to mow with a scythe, etc.

PHOTO: Katarzynówka, district of Lutsk, 7-8 March 1943. Three Polish children aged 2 years-Stabbed bayonets, three years - with broken limbs and five years - with belly ripped open and murdered by OUN-UPA

1 A.Korman - Ukrainian Insurgent Army in the areas Second Polish Republic and its relationship to the Polish population - at the periphery No. 35/1999.
2 Fr. A.Kubasik - Archbishop A.Szeptyckiego vision of the Ukrainian nation, the state and the church - Cracow 1999.

Posted by: ProPeace | Feb 20 2014 4:26 utc | 52

Who and how much money gets to the civil war in the Ukraine? LIST

Radical groups and opposition from the U.S. Embassy received $ 20 million a week to fund militants and lifelines Maidan

American money on the Ukrainian blood

Radical groups and opposition from the U.S. Embassy received $ 20 million a week to fund militants and lifelines Maidan

Ukrainian law enforcement agencies have established customers Evromaydana killings of activists, as well as schemes and identified funding sources escalation of street confrontation, aimed at the violent overthrow of the government. On this, on condition of anonymity, said an informed source from the Ukrainian Security Service.

See also: U.S. called the timing of the civil war in the Ukraine! PAPER + VIDEO

According to the source, since the early days of military confrontation took law enforcement organization in the development of "Right sector." This organization was formed as a result of the internal conflict between the Social-National Assembly and by the radical Ukrainian Union "Trident" them. Bandera. During the investigation it was found that these organizations are funded and diverse range of Western "pro-Ukrainian organizations" created by the secret services of NATO countries during the Soviet era.

A source says that these "charitable" organizations from the outset "Evromaydana" began to create an indoor focal point, attracting experienced Western analysts specializing in the development strategies of "color revolutions." Before their task was to formulate a strategy for action combat groups. During the investigation, it was found that this center gave the command to kill activists during the violent confrontation on the street Hrushevskoho. The loss of life was to provoke an escalation of the conflict and to incite a mob to the police.

Evromaydana formula: "More aggression-more money"

From the first day, "Evromaydana" each team leader resistance received monetary compensation. For each active fighter - $ 200 per day, and in addition - $ 500, if the group was more than 10 persons. Coordinators received from $ 2,000 for each day of riots, on the condition that controlled by a group of gunmen attacking nonstop action at law enforcement officers.

The investigation revealed also that the funds came to the U.S. Embassy in Kiev through the diplomatic channel. In turn, the U.S. Embassy funneling money to the central offices in "Freedom" and VO "Motherland". Amount was about $ 20 million a week. Further, these funds were distributed to support "Evromaydana" (functioning life support system, bribery and bribery of certain officials, law enforcement, payment media, the cost of campaigning, etc.), as well as daily payments active militants. In turn, the opposition leaders and militant groups received non-cash money in their personal bank accounts.

This is evidenced by the search conducted in the premises of the Central Security Service headquarters "Batkivshchyna". As you know, during the operational activities of law enforcement officers seized Alexander Turchinov Cabinet $ 17 million in cash. Besides, seized servers SBU party was information regarding the distribution of funds to pay for life Maidana and carrying out calculations with the militants "right sector" and other radical groups.

Has also been established, and the fact that the leaders of right-wing structures guaranteed U.S. assistance in an emergency evacuation from the territory of Ukraine in case of failure of the revolution, the provision of accommodation and facilities in any EU country of their choice. And these guarantees has already taken advantage of the political leader of the group of so-called provocateurs "Avtomaydana "Sergei Koba. Currently Ukrainian law enforcers specify its exact whereabouts, the source of the SBU.

The leader of the group of so-called provocateurs "Avtomaydana" Sergei Koba all good - the war in Ukraine, he will be watching from Europe.

According to information available in the public domain, the mobilization of radical individuals to participate in the January 19 riots carried out through a social network "Vkontakte", on page "right sector."

To create the image and credibility of "ideological popular protest" radicals asked the people to give them financial assistance.

For transfers of funds indicates the number of cards "Privat" 5168 7553 1093 5578, registered on Okuneva Igorevicha Sergei (19.06.1973 born, a native of the Russian Federation, registered at Dnipropetrovsk region, Dneprodzerzhinsk str. Shcherbytskyi, 65 m . 6).

Also used the system "Western Union" or Moneygram bearer Tarasenko Andrei Ivanovich (born in Kiev, born 17.11.1982).

During the past 10 days was carried out on the specified account crediting bank deposits with the help of "Privat24" mainly from the cities of Kyiv and Ternopil amounts to 50, 100, 500 hryvnia. Money also comes from the supporters of the "right sector" as from Ukraine, from abroad (France, Czech Republic and other countries).

In addition, the page "right sector" social network "in contact" for the transfer of funds are in the account numbers of "Raiffeisen Bank Aval" with owner Surowiecki Yuri Igorevicha (IK 3166505873) in UAH - 262 095 533 782, in U.S. dollars - 262072533786 in € - 262 082 533 789.

In public sources also published personal information of all the leaders and activists of radical groups who are involved in street riots in Kiev and other cities. Name some of them:

Stempitsky Andrew Lyubomirovich: nickname - "Floater", chairman of the central wire in the "Trident" them. Bandera, born 04.12.1974, a Ukrainian-born Borislav Lviv region, lives in a. Zadnestryansk Galitsky district, st. Lviv, 20, tried ideologist and coordinator of the regional organization "Trident", passport number SE 069117, bw 0971135855 has own transport.

Yarosh Dmitry Anatolyevich: nickname "Hawk", the chairman of Ukrainian political organization "Trident", born 30.09.1971, registered and domiciled in Dneprodzerzhinsk Dnipropetrovsk region, on the street. Medical, 47 m. 6. Maintain personal relations: Nalivaychenko (COB), Turchynov Paruby ("Motherland"), Mohnik, Sirotyuk ("Freedom"), Chubarov (Majlis KTN) Karpyuk (UNA-UNSO).

Abramov Vasily Z.: nickname "El", tried twice, the chairman of the regional organization Galitsky VO "Trident", 13.01.1985 born, resident of the village Zadnestryansk, Galitsky district, Ivano-Frankivsk region, one of the coordinators of the "right sector."

Kozyubchik Andrew M.: nickname "Orestes" activist, Ivano-Frankivsk organization IN "Trident", 03.08.1981 born, registered in Krivoy Rog Dnipropetrovsk region, on the street. Sunday, 45/15, actually resides in Ivano-Frankivsk, unemployed, higher education, unmarried, trustee leadership VO "Trident", confesses the idea of neo-year 17.08.2012 detained for grievous bodily harm.

Posted by: ProPeace | Feb 20 2014 4:40 utc | 53

ProPeace (51)

Oh, don't you worry. Those jewish terrorist trainers and supporters are jewish just by mere coincidence.
Because, you see, singling out jews in groups as being a relevant part of a group just because their numbers there are insanely unproportunately high constitutes, uhm, "anti-semitism".

So, kindly note the following:
If 2 in 1000 of any non-jewish population say or do anything the jews don't like, then that whole population is "anti-semitic".

If on the other hand jews make up 3% of any population but provide 70% of terrorist instructors or 80% of bankers then that is mere coincidence.

They kidnapped science, politics, banking, etc. you say? Coincidence, mere coincidence.

Btw., it's not even difficult to see the coincidence. I know people who knew since weeks that jews would be found at the very core of the Ukrainian terror movement. It's kind of remarkably reliable that coincidence with the jews. Just look for murdering, plundering, terrorizing and you will quite reliably find jews at the center - coincidentially, of course.

Ceterum censeo israel americanamque delenda esse.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 20 2014 5:20 utc | 54

"The EU/US are playing a very dangerous game that could set the whole of Europe in flames." Absolutely.

I'm starting to wonder - and would be very interested in opinions - as to wether, privately, the Germans may be having second thoughts. I wonder now how close the EU and the US are coordinating this or if the US is gleefully putting Germany in the position of Turkey re: Syria. Though there is no indication in the media of a split. But then, that's the media. We do of course have the "Fuck the EU" comment.

Obviously I'm not saying that the Germans have not been an integral part of the problems in Ukraine right now, its that I only wonder if, maybe, the US is playing a much more rash game than the Germans are wanting here. The Germans want economic control of the Ukraine to be sure, but I seriously doubt they want a civil war raging in the heart of Europe, not far from their borders.

Surely the Germans can see that, should the violence continue, they'll be left holding the bag of a civil war, refugee problems, and political baggage as we saw happen with Erdogan in Syria. And like in Turkey, an extended period of violence in the Ukraine will not only further saddle the EU with all kinds of economic problems but now humanitarian, political, and military. And problems in the EU benefit the United States enormously. The US has only to make some donations, while the Germans, Poles and Romanians deal with expensive refugee problems and possible spill over violence.

Perhaps this will be a good opportunity for the Germans to come to their senses and realize that the alliance with the US is an entirely one-sided affair, and a colossal burden that drains their political capital and puts them in great jeopardy. And all the while the US, thousands of miles away and holding on to Germany's gold, risking absolutely nothing, and spying on Germany for political to economic advantages. The "alliance" has still the tint of one of victor over defeated, not of two equals.

This is, in reality, the moment for the Germans and the Russians to begin to work together and sideline the United States. In fact, unless they want to be party to the greatest conflict in Europe since 1945 - they have no choice.

Posted by: guest77 | Feb 20 2014 5:27 utc | 55

"Imagine would happen in US if rioters had killed 9 cops!"

This is incredibly difficult to even do so, but you can be sure you wouldn't hear of "cease-fires" and "negotiations".

As bevin discussed, Venezuela provides the only contemporary model available to confront these color revolutions. Political education and, when confrontations arise, bringing large numbers of organized patriots onto the streets, and to do so immediately. The phony, CIA-inspired movements have to be confronted with genuine popular power before they have a chance to gain a foothold.

Posted by: guest77 | Feb 20 2014 6:07 utc | 56

Overnight there was some kind of truce. This has no been broken by the "protesters":

Protesters go on offensive, pushing police back up hill to October Palace, seizing buildings; gunshots all over

Feb. 21, 9:21 a.m. -- Gunshots are incessant and heard everywhere on Kyiv's Independence Square as hundreds of protesters systematically march on police, dislodging them from their positions on the main square and pushing them up the hill into retreat beyond October Palace. A police bus is set on fire. Protesters are protecting themselves from gunshots with shields. Other protesters have taken over vacant stores and shops on the square. At this moment, police are in retreat to the systematic march. Protesters are armed with Molotov cocktails. --

Posted by: b | Feb 20 2014 8:12 utc | 57

Reuters: Kiev Crowd Retakes Square From Police, Possibly Two Dead

The violence came after a truce declared late on Wednesday by President Viktor Yanukovich, who was due to meet the foreign ministers of France, Germany and Poland shortly in Kiev.

Ukrainian television showed two bodies lying on the ground near the square covered by blankets following violence shortly after 9 a.m. (0700 GMT), when protesters surged forward into an area that had been taken by police in heavy fighting between Tuesday and Wednesday.

The anti-government militants hurled fireworks and other projectiles. Police fired stun grenades.

This just for the record. You can bet that "western" media will later forget these early eyewitness reports and will then blame the braking of the truce on the police.

Posted by: b | Feb 20 2014 8:40 utc | 58

ACtually the interventions by EU states like Germany, France, Sweden et.c and the US are acts of war.
How would US like if Ukraine supported nazis in the US trying to kill Obama?

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 20 2014 9:03 utc | 59

Jesus Christ people, how walled off from the world are you. This is what happens when you get all your information out of screens. Do any of you know a single Ukrainian person? All these comments sound nothing like an exercise in groupthink. Please branch out and talk to someone outside your circle of armchair politicians.

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 20 2014 9:17 utc | 60

58) Yep. Covert war. Actually the German press tells it like it is, they just have an irritating habit of blaming Yanukovits for all of it. And second tier conservatives came out on cue with "Yanukovits has to go"

Poland will be faced with fascists in Western Ukraine.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 20 2014 9:19 utc | 61

BBC and ABC are reporting in a round about way that it was the rioters who started this latest confrontation.

[...] The violence broke out after hundreds of armed protesters charged police barricades in Independence Square.

Police fired volleys of rubber bullets to try and repel the attack, while protesters pelted them with Molotov cocktails and rocks and set a bus on fire.

The protesters managed to push back the police forces about 200 metres, regaining control of barricades at the entrance to the square that they had occupied since the start of the crisis. [...]

Posted by: Juan Moment | Feb 20 2014 9:20 utc | 62


You are mad because we arent nazi supporters like yourself?

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 20 2014 9:27 utc | 63

@B #57

A description of the rioters in the NYT as "anti-Government militants" is a start. Hearing Obama refer to them yesterday as peaceful protesters made my skin crawl. So too when Merkel announced that there needed to be a transitional Government. Why? To ultimately replace an elected President? It's excruciating.

That being said, Yanukovich is a weak leader. Announcing hollow deadlines, imaginary red-lines, non-existent consequences. The opposition have played him for a fool.
And remember, he was within a whisker of signing the EU treaty - seen flirting with Ashton and Barroso until Putin reminded him where the allegiance of his supporters rested.

Posted by: Pat Bateman | Feb 20 2014 9:39 utc | 64

Nope, I'm mad because I didn't know there were people this delusional and cold-hearted to a bunch of peasants wanting to be left alone and struggling against nearly a hundred years of systemic oppression by a truly fascist regime, Bolshevism.

These are people that couldn't have cared less for nationalism a hundred years ago, and were only pushed to create a state through centuries of theft, slavery, serfdom, and oppression. At this point all they're trying to do is keep their state before Russia finishes forming another oppressive totalitarian union. How can you people be so ignorant?

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 20 2014 9:42 utc | 65

Jeff, two questions.

a, by "a bunch of peasants wanting to be left alone" are you referring to the armed mob currently overrunning Ukrainian police stations and hurling molotov cocktails in Kiev?

b, could those peasants have waited just a little longer and used next years election to unseat Yanukovich and his corrupt cronies peacefully?

Posted by: Juan Moment | Feb 20 2014 10:02 utc | 66


a) The molotov cocktails didn't come out until the beatings started. This was all very peaceful on the citizen side in the beginning. Obviously that wasn't going to go anywhere except for a slow death. Even peasants have the right to raise their pitchforks when they're being beaten on, and sometimes shot at.

b) You obviously know little about what's been going on in Ukrainian politics lately. By next election the government would have made even more pro-Kremlin laws, expanded Berkut, and beat even more people out of the next election. Basically no opposition party would ever have a chance again and the country would be a de-facto dictatorship like Russia and Belarus. But yeah they're still democracies, good luck to those voters, hah.

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 20 2014 10:31 utc | 67


Wow you really are stupid. You are another hater of Russia like the rest of the mainstream media. Of course you arent feeling well when you step in on Moonofalabama where your illusions is crushed. God turn of your tv for crying out loud and make use of the brain!

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 20 2014 10:39 utc | 68

7 Myths About USSR.
Read it and weep, Jeff.
There's plenty more where that came from (and you won't see it on the TV News).

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Feb 20 2014 10:57 utc | 69

Ukraine: It’s not about Europe vs Russia

Opposition leaders have never distanced themselves from the most radical elements on the streets of Kiev, even though these include neo-Nazis. On the contrary, they have done everything to use their violence as a bargaining chip in their battle with the government

Posted by: Pat Bateman | Feb 20 2014 11:05 utc | 70

63) Yanukovits and the official "opposition" leaders are part of the same Ukrainian oligarchy. Yanukovits has not been considered "pro-Russia", he is pro himself.

The opposition leaders are competing among each others (the US has already picked the winner they would like) and the ideology of the right wing "Swoboda" cannot be officially supported by EU leaders. But even the so called "moderate right wing Swoboda" cannot control the fascist militias on the ground as long as those militias are paid by ... whom?

Yanukovits would have signed the EU deal if it had been politically and economically possible for him i.e. if there had been an agreement between the EU and Russia.

As is Russia pressures Ukraine by gas and deficit payment, and the EU by threatening oligarch business relationships and by funding the opposition.

Something has got to give and unfortunately it will be the Ukrainian people.

The EU would be capable and interested in getting a deal with Russia, it is the US poking Russia for geopolitics.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 20 2014 11:09 utc | 71

Geez Hoarsewhisperer that's freaking funny, I especially like the point about socialism "working", I bet you never actually lived in a socialist country. I bet you never lined up to buy toilet paper, I bet you never joined a queue and only then asked what they were selling...I could just keep on going. You people have no idea. Most of the countries bordering Russia have a deep hatred of it, for very simple reasons. They were oppressed, tortured, killed, denied freedom of speech, freedom of association, whole populations were deported. Do you know why the Chechens hate the Russians so much? What about the Tatars of Crimea. The Soviet economy was built on slave labour. The white sea canal, the road of bones. The yanks might be fucked but they're no comparison to the Russians or the soviets.
So back to the Ukraine, both sides are fucked. Yanukovich is protecting his fortune and his cronies and yes, many in the opposition are fascists and idolize those who voluntarily joined the SS. They're just as bad as each other. The only losers are the decent Ukrainian people.

Posted by: Another Jeff | Feb 20 2014 11:17 utc | 72

Posted by: Another Jeff | Feb 20, 2014 6:17:29 AM | 71

to paraphrase Jeff...both sides of his brain are 'fucked'.

ITS Standard operating procedure for, well, the disillusioned left and right to blame both sides when one side is to blame: so NO to FSA and NO to Assad.

what jeff fails to mention is the west had the east blockaded and involved russia in a costly arms race..societies blockaded then are blamed for 'failing'.

whats freaking funny is jeffs dodgy comments about socialism (really state CAPITALISM), where yet the 'socialists yet managed to put
1l the first satellite into orbit
2. the first animal into orbit
3. the first man into orbit
4. the first woman into orbit
5. the first space station into orbit

meanwhile, the west/USA DID go 'socialist'...tho jeff may note beware of it....europe has long had a soft socialism: in health care and education; while the the socialists in USA so worried the US political classes, they forced FJR to create his social welfare system....and using keynes soft socialism kickstarted the US boom after the war .Keynes was one of the english intellectuals who grew out of fabian socialist movement

Posted by: brian | Feb 20 2014 11:52 utc | 73

Yeah, I'll concede points 1 to 5. At what cost though? While the standard of living in the west was going up, the soviets were living their miserable, terrorized lives. Did you ever live in the soviet union or in one of the soviet satellite countries? I did. Go to north korea, that's pretty close to what the soviet union was. See how you like it when you don't belong to the tiny elite.

re US health/education system. Agree, it's appalling. But the examples you give are all in western Europe and I do agree, they're fantastic.

btw, I'm not the original Jeff. I'm just supporting him.

Posted by: Another Jeff | Feb 20 2014 12:01 utc | 74

oh I forgot...this is not for the squeamish

Posted by: Another Jeff | Feb 20 2014 12:02 utc | 75

Hi Jeff,

a, from memory there was a violent component to the protest movement from the start, building fortifications in the middle of Kiev. The police eventually tried to disperse the crowds and remove those barricades, were however attacked and repelled with a variety of weapons in opposition hands. The police responded with tear gas, water cannons and batons, much like EU or US governments would have. See Seattle 1999 or Athens in 2011.

Were you calling for a violent overthrow of the US regime back in 1999 or the Greek regime two years ago?

Also, out of curiosity, please give me an idea on how the state or federal government where you live would have dealt with protestors building massive barricades in the capitol city, visited and spurred on by foreign politicians?

Evidence clearly shows western governments underhanded meddling in Ukrainian affairs. And those governments are not known for supporting 'peasant' movements.

b, Whilst there were some irregularities in a few districts, according to EU election observers the 2012 parliamentary elections were "a good election, not perfect but clearly acceptable and that it was in compliance with democratic norms". The international observers' conclusions on Ukraine's February 2010 presidential election was that they have been transparent, unbiased and an "impressive display" of democracy.

So if the opposition forces have indeed the country wide popularity and 'peasant' support you are claiming they have, winning the upcoming elections should have been a breeze.

My guess is the opposition parties don't have the numbers, they know they don't, and hence chose a violent showdown instead.

Posted by: Juan Moment | Feb 20 2014 12:48 utc | 76

I'm not sure why some here are debating the merits of socialism with regard to Russia and Ukraine. Russia is not a socialist country anymore and is not trying to export socialism to Ukraine. Russia's viewpoints seem much closer to the two principles that form the basis of international law, namely nonaggression and national sovereignty. US/EU foreign policy more closely resembles the 'principle' of might makes right disguised in R2P rhetoric to keep the useful idiots on board.

Posted by: Lysander | Feb 20 2014 13:14 utc | 77

I find it funny how the US is pushing the EU to commit suicide by starting a fire in Ukraine..These idiots think they'll be left unscathed..A civil war in Ukraine will involve all of Europe. Maybe that's the plan all along...

Posted by: Zico | Feb 20 2014 13:16 utc | 78

Lysander, while I do agree with your viewpoint on the US, I would argue that the same applies to Russia. If you lived in one of the countries who were controlled by the former USSR or one of those that Russia considers to be within it's sphere of influence, then you would see exactly how Russia operates. And they are not the actions of a big, friendly huggable bear. The truth is much more sinister.

Posted by: Another Jeff | Feb 20 2014 13:25 utc | 79

Some sources on UPA, during WW2:Polishchuk, Viktor, 1925- Main Title: Falszowanie historii najnowszej Ukrainy ; WolyЄn--1943 i jego znaczenie / Wiktor Poliszczuk. Variant Title: Falszowanie historii najnowszej Ukrainy ; WolyЄn--1943 i jego znaczenie Published/Created: Toronto ; Warszawa : W. Poliszczuk, 1996. Related Names: Polishchuk, Viktor, 1925- WolyЄn--1943 i jego znaczenie. Related Titles: WolyЄn--1943 i jego znaczenie. Description: 90 p. : ill., map ; 21 cm. ISBN: 0969944438 Notes: Includes bibliographical references (p. 60-65). Subjects: Orhanizatsiia ukradnsЄkykh natsionalistiv.
Victor Polischuk was the first to unveal the taboo about the crimes of UPA. But Poland played a very bad game also in the twenties and before.

Posted by: André | Feb 20 2014 13:39 utc | 80


Yes, AJ, the truth is more sinister. Just as it would be were the Russians to subsidize an operation to overthrow the Canadian government with a view to projecting military force on the border with the United States. You must not have paid attention to Vicki Nuland's remarks. Now you are perfectly in your rights to be a 'useful idiot' if that is your preferred means of mental masturbation and relieves your conscience, but don't expect people around here not to see the idiocy. And by the way, have you been in Russia lately? I have, and for ordinary individuals it's a hell of a lot freer than the United States.

Posted by: Knut | Feb 20 2014 13:50 utc | 81

78) Sure, it is geopolitics. And Russia is an empire. That does not mean a front against Russia makes sense for any of the Eastern European states or Germany.
At present the situation seems to be out of anybody's control.

Posted by: somebody | Feb 20 2014 13:55 utc | 82

@ 78, the USSR, whatever its faults were, gave up its empire without firing a shot. When the time comes, will the US do the same? Or will it drag as much of the world with it as it can while it goes down kicking and screaming?

When Russia was attacked by Georgia (put up to it by elements of the White House) did the Russians bomb all of Georgia's infrastructure to smithereens? Did they march to Tiblisi and replace the prowestern government with a pro Russian one? Did they conduct a 78 day terror bombing campaign?

The US did all that and more to Serbia in 1999. By contrast, Russia simply defeated and repelled the attacking army and avoided mass bombardment of civilian infrastructure. The analogy is imperfect only because Serbia had never attacked nor intended to attack the US.

I would have to say that Russia's foreign behavior today is much more consistent with basic principles of law and humanitarianism than that of the US. If you wish to compare USSR foreign policy to that of the US at the time, you again will find that the US killed a whole lot more innocent people than the Soviets did (Vietnam, Korea, Dominican Republic, etc.) sponsored more coups and revolutions than they did, (Chile, Brazil, Guatemala, Indonesia, etc.)

If you want to compare 19th century policies of the two nations, take note that the native population of the US barely exists, whereas the cultures of eastern Russia are still there.

In short, I much prefer a world with multiple centers of power, where each center has a vested interest in maintaining and abiding by the basic principles of international law, than a world where one single overwhelming power imposes its will on everyone. ESPECIALLY when that power has convinced itself its totally benign.

Full disclosure: I am not a socialist at all.

Posted by: Lysander | Feb 20 2014 14:19 utc | 83


do you have any information on the context of Mayor of Kiev and 10 MPs resigning and coming out in support of the "people?"

Posted by: OAB | Feb 20 2014 14:43 utc | 84

Jeff comes in, Jeff comes out and "Another Jeff" comes in. What is this?

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 20 2014 14:51 utc | 85


How many millions died in the soviet union famines for someone's ideal form of socialism. How many millions died in China when the same script was executed. Wasn't Nazi Germany socalist as well?

I'm shocked you idealize socialism, look at both sides, not just the scientific gains. Think of how much more we could have learned if all those great socialist governments had just experimented on a bit more people.


Yeah, you can believe what you read, but I знаю better. The EU didn't observe the months of systemic bribing leading up to the elections. There were reps going to every village ready to pay for votes, but only for one party. The ballet stuffing or the intimidation of old people that wouldn't take the bribes by those same reps visiting the villages. But you can choose to believe whatever you choose, I don't need to believe, I know.

Another Jeff:

Thank god for some divergent thought. Good to see that this isn't just a big exercise in groupthink by a bunch of America-haters (or self-hating Americans) stroking their own egos.

Posted by: Jeff | Feb 20 2014 15:23 utc | 86

I'll just leave this here . . .

Posted by: ZK | Feb 20 2014 15:27 utc | 87


"Thank god for some divergent thought. Good to see that this isn't just a big exercise in groupthink by a bunch of America-haters (or self-hating Americans) stroking their own egos."

Nothing more funny than the brainwashed MSM-guy thinking he know whats going on.

Keep stroking your american flag moron.

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 20 2014 15:34 utc | 88

Another article on Israeli involvement on the side of Ukrainian fascists.

Isn't that lovely? So the neocons who for all intents and purposes should be correctly labeled Zeocons are at it again in destabilizing the world?

Gee, what an effing surprise!

I mean, Zionists would NEVER collaborate with outright fascists, would they? Hmmm, I seem to remember something like 51 documents that showed that Zionists in Nazi Germany DID indeed collaborate with the Nazis. Oh well.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Americans: when you wonder why your police shoot to kill innocent and unarmed citizens you can thank the Israelis for help fine tune their fascist talents.

When you have killer drones hovering over your cities you can thank - who do you think? - that's right, the Israelis.

What a shining beacon of freedom the US and Israel are!!!

Posted by: JSorrentine | Feb 20 2014 15:37 utc | 89

Just ignore the troll.

Posted by: ThePaper | Feb 20 2014 15:44 utc | 90

Possible backstories on Jeff's motivations:

He drew the shortest straw over at the State Dept stable of web-propagandists.

He is trying to impress his new Ukrainian hottie. Oh sexy girlfriend!!!

He's the Ukrainian baker that Nuland and McCain go to for Freedom Cakes when in town.

The Polish potato crop is coming in short this year and he needed the money.

He's an unpaid intern at the NYT and this is better than copying/fetching coffee.

Posted by: JSorrentine | Feb 20 2014 15:47 utc | 91

Jeff is also making his presence known with Elaine at Culture of Life News and with our friends at junkie.....

Posted by: georgeg | Feb 20 2014 15:52 utc | 92

look at this stupid and aggressive article from Economist blaming the victims!

Posted by: Anonymous | Feb 20 2014 16:16 utc | 93

@Jeffs, it is ludicrous to suggest we don't have access to the sources that inform your own opinions. As to socialism not working: Nothing, besides flinging feces, has always worked. Capitalism had a rocky start and took centuries to take hold. You speak of famines. How far are you willing to go back to search these things out? How about the Enclosures? When English dukes and earls etc. realized there was a lot of cash to be had by kicking the peasants off their land and replacing them with sheep. Lets start there and follow the dispossesion and market manipulation by entrepreneurs with powerful friends up to the present. Were you aware that many quaint country preachers, a la your Jane Austen, during the time of the triangle trade in whiskey, cotton and slaves padded their income with tiny ventures in that business? Irish famine? Does that ring a bell? That didn't just happen.

Posted by: ruralito | Feb 20 2014 16:32 utc | 94

And whilst Russian eyes are turned on Ukraine and Sochi, violent Islamists continue to mass on Syria's Southern border..

Posted by: Pat Bateman | Feb 20 2014 16:41 utc | 95

@93, beginning to look like WWIII. The web, the airwaves, the print media are so full of poison, and by poison I mean, a narrative that doesn't make sense, that's nothing but a fungus designed to drive people nuts.

Posted by: ruralito | Feb 20 2014 16:56 utc | 96

Ruralito@92 responding to Jeff.

You're on the money. It is important to remind apologists for the West as they thump their "Black Book of Communism" that modern capitalism, built as you correctly note on enclosure of the commons and the Middle Passage, has an incomparably longer list of horrors and a far larger pyramid of corpses compared to Mao and Stalin.

Having gone to school with Austrian School types, I came to realize that all they have when it comes to singing the praises of Western-style laissez faire (a.k.a., "predatory") capitalism are the bogeymen of Uncle Joe and Chairman Mao.

How many times have we been lectured about the crimes of the "Great Leap Forward"? But when it comes to the explaining free markets, we are asked to suspend disbelief and all understanding of history and accept fables.

Posted by: Mike Maloney | Feb 20 2014 16:56 utc | 97

Jeff reminds me of a pro-zusa polish traitor jew.

But frankly, ladies and gentlemen, you readily handed over this discussion to him! All he had to do was to bark a little and to spew some zio-shit - and you jumped on it and gave up the thread.

All he wanted was to disturb the discussion he and his accomplices didn't like and to draw your attention away from it. And he succeeded.

Posted by: Mr. Pragma | Feb 20 2014 17:06 utc | 98

@95, "pyramid of corpses". lol, modern times require modern latinisms! Argument by appeal to stack of dead people. suggests ad corporum adcervum.

Posted by: ruralito | Feb 20 2014 17:40 utc | 99

oops, that was for @97 ;o

Posted by: ruralito | Feb 20 2014 17:44 utc | 100

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