MoA - Hersh On Obama's Lies About Syrian Chemical Weapons

December 08, 2013

Hersh On Obama's Lies About Syrian Chemical Weapons

A month ago Philip Giraldi, a former CIA officer, wrote about CIA analysts who threatened to resign over the Obama administration allegations about the use of chemical weapons in Syria by the Syrian government:

With all evidence considered, the intelligence community found itself with numerous skeptics in the ranks, leading to sharp exchanges with the Director of Central Intelligence John Brennan and Director of National Intelligence James Clapper. A number of analysts threatened to resign as a group if their strong dissent was not noted in any report released to the public, forcing both Brennan and Clapper to back down.

Now Seymour Hersh writes about the case and finds that the CIA knew that Jabhat al-Nusra, a fundamentalist gang fighting the Syrian government, was capable of producing Sarin, the toxic chemical weapon that was used in a suburb of Damascus:

In the months before the attack, the American intelligence agencies produced a series of highly classified reports, culminating in a formal Operations Order – a planning document that precedes a ground invasion – citing evidence that the al-Nusra Front, a jihadi group affiliated with al-Qaida, had mastered the mechanics of creating sarin and was capable of manufacturing it in quantity. When the attack occurred al-Nusra should have been a suspect, but the administration cherry-picked intelligence to justify a strike against Assad.
...
[I]n recent interviews with intelligence and military officers and consultants past and present, I found intense concern, and on occasion anger, over what was repeatedly seen as the deliberate manipulation of intelligence. One high-level intelligence officer, in an email to a colleague, called the administration’s assurances of Assad’s responsibility a ‘ruse’. The attack ‘was not the result of the current regime’, he wrote. A former senior intelligence official told me that the Obama administration had altered the available information – in terms of its timing and sequence – to enable the president and his advisers to make intelligence retrieved days after the attack look as if it had been picked up and analysed in real time, as the attack was happening.

MoA has maintained since the very first reports of the chemical weapon use that this attack was likely a false flag event. We also criticized allegations by the New York Times and Human Rights Watch about the origin of the rocket debris found after the attack. The new Hersh report now completely debunks those allegations.

One piece in Hersh's case about al-Nusra's capabilities to produce Sarin comes from a somewhat mysterious cable:

On 20 June a four-page top secret cable summarising what had been learned about al-Nusra’s nerve gas capabilities was forwarded to David R. Shedd, deputy director of the Defense Intelligence Agency. ‘What Shedd was briefed on was extensive and comprehensive,’ the [senior intelligence] consultant said. ‘It was not a bunch of “we believes”.’ He told me that the cable made no assessment as to whether the rebels or the Syrian army had initiated the attacks in March and April, but it did confirm previous reports that al-Nusra had the ability to acquire and use sarin.
...
Spokesmen for the DIA and Office of the Director of National Intelligence said they were not aware of the report to Shedd and, when provided with specific cable markings for the document, said they were unable to find it. Shawn Turner, head of public affairs for the ODNI, said that no American intelligence agency, including the DIA, ‘assesses that the al-Nusra Front has succeeded in developing a capacity to manufacture sarin’.

My assumption is that this cable came from Russia. But, as Hersh writes, the U.S. military had come to confirming conclusions.

The Hersh report is published in the London Review of Books, not in Hersh's usual outlet the New Yorker. According to a Buzzfeed report the piece was, at a time, supposed to be published in the Washington Post. The LRB is a reliable publication based in the United Kingdom and will surely have fact-checked Hersh's reporting. One wonders why the U.S. publications refrained from publishing his report.

Posted by b on December 8, 2013 at 14:24 UTC | Permalink

Comments

Re: why "the U.S. publications refrained from publishing his report."

In his Democracy Now interview this morning, Hersh was extremely generous in his assessment of WaPo and its editorial standards. Perhaps as a journalist, he wants to avoid burning bridges and leave open as many options for future publication in the MSM.

WaPo has been among the leaders in the MSM of banging the drums for neocon PNAC interventions. Its editorial pages were among those to pick up Obama's "red line" remark and start demanding intervention sooner rather than later. In his article, Hersh mentions WaPo's repeating Obama's misleading statements and failure to frontpage a retraction as though WaPo was embarrassed by its oversight rather than that WaPo wanted to minimize details that detracted from the momentum toward a war on Syria that it had been promoting for so long:

Five days later, a spokesman for the Office of the Director of National Intelligence responded to the complaints. A statement to the Associated Press said that the intelligence behind the earlier administration assertions was not known at the time of the attack, but recovered only subsequently: ‘Let’s be clear, the United States did not watch, in real time, as this horrible attack took place. The intelligence community was able to gather and analyse information after the fact and determine that elements of the Assad regime had in fact taken steps to prepare prior to using chemical weapons.’ But since the American press corps had their story, the retraction received scant attention. On 31 August the Washington Post, relying on the government assessment, had vividly reported on its front page that American intelligence was able to record ‘each step’ of the Syrian army attack in real time, ‘from the extensive preparations to the launching of rockets to the after-action assessments by Syrian officials’. It did not publish the AP corrective, and the White House maintained control of the narrative.
So when Obama said on 10 September that his administration knew Assad’s chemical weapons personnel had prepared the attack in advance, he was basing the statement not on an intercept caught as it happened, but on communications analysed days after 21 August. The former senior intelligence official explained that the hunt for relevant chatter went back to the exercise detected the previous December, in which, as Obama later said to the public, the Syrian army mobilised chemical weapons personnel and distributed gas masks to its troops. The White House’s government assessment and Obama’s speech were not descriptions of the specific events leading up to the 21 August attack, but an account of the sequence the Syrian military would have followed for any chemical attack. ‘They put together a back story,’ the former official said, ‘and there are lots of different pieces and parts. The template they used was the template that goes back to December.’ It is possible, of course, that Obama was unaware that this account was obtained from an analysis of Syrian army protocol for conducting a gas attack, rather than from direct evidence. Either way he had come to a hasty judgment.

The press would follow suit.

Even in his efforts to absolve the MSM of pushing for the war, Hersh's report still reveals its tawdry behavior in response to Obama's "fixing the facts around the intelligence" -- which even the American intelligence community wouldn't back up.

Posted by: Rusty Pipes | Dec 10 2013 2:30 utc | 101

Of course Hersh is generous in his treatment of the MSM. He doesn't want to burn his bridges and prevent his being published by them in the future.

Posted by: lysias | Dec 10 2013 3:06 utc | 102

@97 All that time spent as a NATO camp follower is, predictably enough, not improving your morals. Or your sense of humour.

It is standard for imperialist propagandists to trivialise any dissent from the conventional wisdom, as represented by Foreign Affairs or the NY Times and similar organs, by implying that to conclude that Obama and his like falsify intelligence and mount tendentious propaganda campaigns to win approval for their warmongering, is paranoid behaviour.

Carry on this way, Louis, and you will come to agree with their view that the class war is a myth and that capitalism is a necessary and bracing experience for which the working class ought to be grateful.

It is a pity, because @92 inspired in me the naive, if transient, belief that there might be hope for you yet before you slunk into the warm bosom of "legal marxism" and sucked in the largesse that a sell out with a name-unrepentant, no less- trusts awaits him. A pensionary, whose work on the Libyan and Syrian questions deserves reward.

As to Hersh's reasoning, as reported @92, it seems clear enough to me. He has been a freelance for a very long time. And he has always been very careful to add nothing to the real offence caused by his well researched and courageous articles. Such as those on My Lai which turned the Pentagon upside down for a week or so.

His remarks are entirely characteristic: he is modest, makes light of his position in the journalistic pecking order. Carefully avoids attacking the motives of the brothel creeping editors who question his probity. He makes it very clear that his aim is simply to reveal an important set of facts which the public needs to know. He has no axe to grind. He has taken no side in the war.
Now he returns to his book on the War on Terror without compromising himself in the eyes of publisher or critic. He is a freelancer. He wants his work to sell. He wants to preserve his reputation as an honest reporter.
Had he behaved in any other way, I would have been very surprised.

As to the LRB it is unsurprising that he should have been published there. The LRB is a far better magazine than the middlebrow consumer's New Yorker where the pro-US government biass is becoming more and more marked. Look, for example, at the McCarthyite nonsense that their legal reporter spouted over Snowden's treachery" and "espionage."

The truth is that at this site, and others such as the whoghouta site Mina refers to @66, from the first there has been a rigorous examination of the claims made by various parties.

It is surprising that anyone believed that the Syrian government, or any serious military minds, could have been connected with the incidents first reported in late August. The idea that the Syrians would use crude gas weapons against the area made no sense. Not just politically but militarily. There was no target for such weapons. Had Louis's parody of the International Brigades massed its thousands in entrenched positions, inviting a siege someone might have suggested sarin attacks.

He would have been shouted down fairly quickly, mark you, the UN chemical weapons inspectors being due the next day, the area being a text book example of where not to use gas, the US having announced that to do so would be to invite the sort of onslaught that Louis and Levy (the Mutt and Jeff of 21st century dialectical materialism) enjoyed so much when Libyans were being incinerated from on high.
It was clear that there must be much more to the Ghouta incidents than the reincarnated Hearst media was telling the world.

And, on this site, and others like it, where anonymous anarchists, socialists, libertarian conservatives, economic nationalists and plain honest people gather to cherish truth from the bitter winds of neo-liberalism, unreconstructed narcissism and other forms of intellectual prostitution, our underground media has proved right.
That which is lacking in resources is made up for by honesty and co-operative effort.

People here are accused of being Assad supporters. And, of course, some are. It is an obvious place for them to gather, because it is a place where their voices, representative I suppose of a significant number of Syrians and Arabs in general who see the troika, of Imperialism, Wahhabi kleptocrats and revisionist zionists, as a dangerous enemy of all Arabs and of Palestinians in particular, are heard. It is a sad fact that on many "left" sites any dissent from the "Marxists for Salafism" point of view is howled down as "vile" and those who question Bandar's legions, the heroes of Bahrain's liberation from the shia, are called partisans of a dictator or tyrant.

But most who post here hold no brief for the baathists in Syria just as, despite a chorus of accusations from imperialists, we held no brief for Saddam Hussein.

Most of us are opponents of the Empire and are contemptuous of its camp followers, the jackals who pack up the adventuring Empire's tents, in the morning, wash its dirty laundry in the soft soap of scholarly marxism and grow fat on the wasted rations and discarded plunder it leaves for scavengers.

Posted by: bevin | Dec 10 2013 3:08 utc | 103

Posted by: Louis Proyect | Dec 9, 2013 7:59:43 PM | 97

Louis in his aggrieved they-didnt-bomb-the-butcher-of-Damascus-and-i-feel-so-blue mode

however his @97 is a good deal less fanciful than anything on his blog pertaining to syria and Assad!

Sure enough Louis is out to defend the honor of Mossad.

Posted by: brian | Dec 10 2013 3:17 utc | 104

Posted by: Louis Proyect | Dec 9, 2013 6:10:19 PM | 92

Louis wonders why Hersh didnt try The UNrepentent Marxist blog for his revelations.

Posted by: brian | Dec 10 2013 3:19 utc | 105

Posted by: Louis Proyect | Dec 9, 2013 6:10:19 PM | 92

Louis defends WAPO...which is no surprise

Posted by: brian | Dec 10 2013 3:22 utc | 106

"Now this Hersh session with Any Goodman is also basically crap, IMH. Hersh sounds as if he's either drunk or hysterical. Among other things he says " The Israelis are not going to tolerate a jihadist government inside Syria, or even any area that the jihadists will claim as an area of sharia law. They’ll hit it." This is the same sort of shit as saying that the US can't do anything about "rich donors in the Gulf." It's "OMG, we're just a pitiful, helpless giant." And it's nonsense in both cases. Israel is no more a truant against US policy than the Gulf states are. This is all just deniability."

Rowan,
Just because you don't like part of what a person says you should not disregard him and his main points all together.
There is a concept in Shia Islam called "innocence", there are a set of 14 people in Shia Islam who are considered to be "innocent" (the closest term in English to it would be "sainthood" though it is not a very good translation). These people (the "innocents") are believed to not have made any mistakes at all and their word is the ultimate truth and should be taken as the absolute truth without any argument or doubt (by the way the concept of "supreme jurisprudent" is an extension of the concept of "innocence"). Now I am going to go on a limb but I don't think you are a shia muslim so I would presume that you are not looking for "innocence" in anyone. So why do you judge Seymour Hersh so harshly because you don't like with part of what he says regarding Israelies not to tolerate a jihadi entity right on their door step? By the way I too disagree with Hersh about Israelies not tolerating a jihadi entity on their door step. But that is not the issue. If I were to judge people in a "digital 1 or 0" way so as to discredit anyone because I don't agree with everything that he says, then I would have to discredit everyone other than myself, because I and for that matter no other person with an independent mind above the teenage years would agree with someone else 100%.

Posted by: Pirouz_2 | Dec 10 2013 3:23 utc | 107

Nice post #103.

And, on this site, and others like it, where anonymous anarchists, socialists, libertarian conservatives, economic nationalists and plain honest people gather to cherish truth from the bitter winds of neo-liberalism, unreconstructed narcissism and other forms of intellectual prostitution, our underground media has proved right.
That which is lacking in resources is made up for by honesty and co-operative effort.

I recently started to call what you describe the "reality-based community" after the famous quote likely from Karl Rove, and would invite others to follow.

The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

They aren't going to get away with it.

Posted by: CE | Dec 10 2013 3:33 utc | 108

Posted by: bevin | Dec 9, 2013 10:08:59 PM | 103

.....what he said!

Posted by: brian | Dec 10 2013 3:36 utc | 109

@109 lol. Indeed.

Posted by: guest77 | Dec 10 2013 4:04 utc | 110

The Israelis have claimed that their intel on Syria was better than for any other nation.

Israeli professionals primarily concerned with Israel's security have always been fine with Assad and quite satisfied with the level of his stewardship over his chemical stockpiles. The #1 concern among these folks was that the Syrian protection of the caches would be breached and that the jihadi berserkers would gain control over such dangerous arsenals. Shocking to some will be the fact that Israeli analysts were not worried about Hezbollah acquiring the same; they trust Nasrallah's oft stated clear logic that such weapons are way too much trouble and too dangerous to use.

(Ironically, the Israelis have learned to trust Nasrallah's word more than some of his fellow Lebanese do.)

That said, here's a reposting of Israeli journo Oren Kessler's tweet about a news item in the Hebrew version of Ynet about the CW attack in the Kahn al_Assal neighborhood of Aleppo :
'

Follow

Oren Kessler
‏@OrenKessler
Israeli security officials believe Syrian rebels used sarin gas against soldiers yesterday, killing 26 (Yediot)
Reply Retweet Favorite More
14
RETWEETS
2
FAVORITES
3:14 AM - 20 Mar 2013

https://twitter.com/OrenKessler/status/314319035112235010

The Israelis would be the very most likely to know from WMDs given their intelligence penetration of Syria.

Posted by: lally | Dec 10 2013 4:55 utc | 111

bevin @ 103:"Most of us are opponents of the Empire and are contemptuous of its camp followers, the jackals who pack up the adventuring Empire's tents, in the morning, wash its dirty laundry in the soft soap of scholarly marxism and grow fat on the wasted rations and discarded plunder it leaves for scavengers."

Perfectly said, thanks bevin, from all who post and read at this site, that may not be so articulate.

Posted by: ben | Dec 10 2013 5:36 utc | 112

once against the islamic terrorists kidnap journalists:

#‎Spanish‬ journalists were kidnapped in Syria at the hands of the elements of "‪#‎Daash‬" (‪#‎ISIL‬)

Announced the Spanish newspaper "‪#‎IlMondo‬” that the Spanish correspondent Javier ‪#‎Espinosa‬ and freelance photographer Ricardo ‪#‎Garcia‬ Vilanova were kidnapped on September 16 in Syria by a group linked to al Qaeda in Syria.
"Il Mondo" announced that the kidnapping journalists happened when they were preparing to leave Syria after two weeks of work in preparation for the journalist's report on "the consequences of war on civilians" in Deir ez-Zor region east of the country.
The newspaper said that the journalists were kidnapped with four fighters from the Free Army "were assigned to protect them," adding: "Syrians were released after 12 days, but that did not happen with the Spaniards."

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=674659229245072&set=a.542763392434657.1073741828.542411202469876&type=1&theater

Posted by: brian | Dec 10 2013 8:28 utc | 113

unusual, the tryannical side of islam is shown in the Fatwa, whereby any cleric can issue one against an offender of the faith

But to issue a fatwa like this:
Usama Hasan was the imam of a mosque in Leyton until he was driven from the post by death threats. This is perhaps the most extreme reaction there has ever been to an article on Comment is free: the death threats were the response of a section of his congregation to a piece he wrote here defending the truth of evolution. He kept his head down for a couple of years after that, to protect his family, but has now resurfaced as a fellow at the Quilliam Foundation, the counter-extremism thinktank.

At the weekend, he was in Salisbury, at the Muslim Institute's Winter Gathering, and I chaired a discussion with him there on creationism among Muslims. In close-up his story was even more shocking than it appears in summary. A visiting Saudi cleric issued a fatwa, from the Green Lane mosque in Birmingham, that supported his enemies in the congregation: not only did it explain that anyone who denied creationism was an apostate, who could (and should, in an ideal state) be killed, but that his support for women going bareheaded if they wished, and for a secular form of government, were also sufficient grounds for a death sentence.

Since these judgments were circulated in jihadi circles, Hasan and his family were in real danger as a result and were granted police protection for a while.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2013/dec/04/creationist-fatwa-wahhabi-islam-usama-hasan

Posted by: brian | Dec 10 2013 8:48 utc | 114

Well, I don't mind people missing my point, which is about deniability, about the fact that AQ is fake, about the fact that Israel is actually in bed with Bandar, and so all these journalists and pundits are part of the Big Lie of our times. I know it's hard to believe, at least at first. But I do mind this:

It is interesting that Rowan Berkley is fan of Lyndon LaRouche, (is it because he is antisemite?) and not Cockburn. As far as I am concerned there is just few degree of separation between them. Posted by: neretva'43 | Dec 9, 2013 5:08:55 PM | 89

It's absolute nonsense, not based on anything, except I suppose that I admit to enjoying the weekly World Crisis Radio programs of Webster Tarpley, who is an ex-Larouchie.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Dec 10 2013 9:06 utc | 115

the truth about islamists and CW from Matt Van Dyke...courtesy of Syrian Electonic army.....a rare oportunity for matt and us

enjoy
http://syrianfreepress.wordpress.com/2013/11/14/matthew-vandyke-email-twitter-hacked-by-the-sea/

Posted by: brian | Dec 10 2013 9:14 utc | 116

Van Dyke Leaks: on Syria courtesy of Syria Electronic Army

Table of Contents

Vandyke Knew Rebels had Chemical Weapons TOLD ELLIOT HIGGINS

Vandyke is friends with AlQaeda

Vandyke helped Libyans cross into Syria on AID ships

Vandyke Sexual Scandal with the Star of his Film NOUR KELZE

Vandyke perverse orgies and beastiality
Van Dyke Leaks!

Vandyke says the Syrian revolution is fake

Vandyke the Mercenary

Vandyke the Agent

Vandyke Pretends to be a journalist

Curious case of Austin Bodetti
http://leaks.sea.sy/vandyke-leaks/

Posted by: brian | Dec 10 2013 9:25 utc | 117

Just to be clear: as I see it, Hersh is helping the zionist script, which will proceed with some phony threats by Jihadis to “give the Jews a second taste of Auschwitz” or something. I've been watching this dismally bad movie for over 10 years, and I know it's all fake, from the top to the very bottom. So naturally I have no respect for Counterpunch and the infamous Coburns. Remember that P Coburn writes for the London Independent, an awful newspaper of liberal imperialist hue which only exists because the third party in UK politics, currently enjoying the itty bitty name of "Liberal Democrats", felt it should have a pseudo broadsheet to match the Labour Grauniad and the Tory Telegraph. The Indy is also the vessel for the endless flagellatory monographs of R Fisk. But generally, the Indy is distinguished by its pathetic attempts to boost the Lib Dem fortunes by way of moral crusade, ie cannabis will rot your brain and suchlike. The other Coburns generally restrict themselves to what look like lefty outlets, but this P Coburn is sold right out to the mainstream. Never believe anything until it's been denied by a Coburn, will be my motto from now on.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Dec 10 2013 9:31 utc | 118

Enjoy, or just puke.

For the archive, and because this guy seems indeed involved in helping Libyan djihadists go to fight in Syria, I have googled some of the names leaked in this thing that i first thought was a hoax (I mean, when you reach such an horror, it is hard to take it as credible from first reading). (I am refereing to this: http://leaks.sea.sy/vandyke-leaks/#KnewRebels)

Here is the perfect example of how the Western media have created the image of a freedom fighter and hero of local news with the little help of this sock puppet called M Van Dyke, " a graduate of Georgetown University’s school of foreign service" (according to the article of the WashPost, usually reliable on that very topic, and not a writer or a journalist as in some articles)
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-08-24/local/35272084_1_brega-abu-salim-tripoli-prison
http://themellowjihadi.com/tag/lauren-fischer/
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-11-05/news/bs-md-vandyke-returns-20111105_1_libyan-rebels-baltimore-elementary-school-teacher-maryland-man
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/american-who-joined-libyan-rebels-returns-to-us/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/05/matthew-vandyke-american-who-joined-libya-returning-to-us_n_1077804.html

Finally, the freak's own website:
http://www.matthewvandyke.com/events/

Interestingly, the Vice/CNN's "our guys in Fort Bragg" in the conversation (here: http://leaks.sea.sy/vandyke-leaks/#KnewRebels) is among the people to alert on the strong presence of AQ
http://www.vice.com/read/al-qaeda-plants-its-flag-in-libya
http://www.voanews.com/content/muslim-brotherhood-calls-for-martyrs-friday-in-egypt/1735343.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2012/04/11/world/meast/vice-al-qaeda-libya/index.html

Maybe after all the explanation is here (same leaks) when the young History Hopkins University student explains (on August 15th, that's recent) that the plan in bringing in more Libyans is "The Hamami-Massoud division will declare war on ISIS, JN and other AQ affiliates. We're gambling: war in exchange of Western support."

http://triacapita.blogspot.de/2013/08/young-blood-and-guns-austin-bodetti.html
http://onviolence.com/?e=685
http://www.bir-hacheim.com/le-colonel-jean-leroy-une-legende-de-la-guerre-dindochine/
(in this one he uses an email which if google brings to all the websites frequented by Indochina's and Algeria's vets, i. e. trying to recruit people from their circles? http://www.cervens.net/legionbbs123/archive/index.php/t-13103.html (under "Peter Maritz"; http://militariaindoalgerie.superforum.fr/t807-bonjour-a-tous; http://www.genealogie.com/v4/forums/recherches-genealogiques-france-indochine-et-algerie-t1371413.html)
Even recruiting djihadists on Yahoo Q and A is an option: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130512180241AASTxsF

Indeed, sadly kids can learn a lot of World of Warcraft, but they play with the lives of real people. Sickening.

Posted by: Mina | Dec 10 2013 9:59 utc | 119

(BTW, it's "open source" and I'm not a - sigh... nausea- "journalist" so please use at convenience)

Posted by: Mina | Dec 10 2013 10:02 utc | 120

@119

thanks...very useful...MVD moves in strange seas

Posted by: brian | Dec 10 2013 10:34 utc | 121

The syrian civil war is a false flag project to remove iranian influence in lebanon.
a combination of saudi backed jihadi networks and american sanctions has forced iran to the bargaining table.this in turn has given obama leverage to push israel into accepting a framework to allow palestinians to gain statehood
peace must be given a chance,and if rejected,a census will see the counting of heads on the plains of syria.
the book of numbers has been opened

Posted by: redrose | Dec 10 2013 12:04 utc | 122

Medialens clamps down on 'allegations re MattVanDyke and Syrian Electronic Army hacks

Deleted post
Posted by brianEmail User on December 10, 2013, 11:39 am
Edited by board administrator December 10, 2013, 11:53 am

Brian, we've politely asked you to stop posting such allegations on our board. If you do it again, you'll be banned from here.

Eds
=================
Deleted post
Posted by brianEmail User on December 10, 2013, 10:40 am, in reply to "Brown Moses responds"
Edited by board administrator December 10, 2013, 11:22 am

We've got reservations about posting allegedly hacked messages here.

Eds
Responses
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what exactly is an 'allegation'? wer the eds saying
http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1386675573.html
==========

so the SEA 'allegedly' hacked MVD, which means if they had hacked them itd be OK to post. So how to tell if its not just an allegation but a real hack? Im not allegeding its an allegation. To me this looks like a real hack,and is acknowledged as such:
http://www.matthewvandyke.com/blog/syrian-electronic-army-hacked/

so what was Medialens for the removal and threat?

Posted by: brian | Dec 10 2013 12:15 utc | 123

About the Counterpunch article, everybody appreciated that the guy didn't put a picture of KSA but of Iran or Pakistan (I am not sure but some people here can probably read what is written but it looks like Persian or Urdu). Not referencing pictures is a mark of quality journalism.

Brian, it will be hard for judges to argue that hacking is bad after the NSA/World of Warcraft etc scandal.

Posted by: Mina | Dec 10 2013 12:24 utc | 124

@124
hacking is neither good nor bad..it depends on the intention and the result.
hacks used to uncover say terrorist activity would by most people be seen as good

Posted by: brian | Dec 10 2013 12:33 utc | 125

If you remember, people who reprinted the stuff that was hacked from Stratfor's email accounts went to jail. So that would scare yer avridge bloggist. I mean, it scared me. I removed my own post about the Startfor hack within literally seconds, after reading that.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Dec 10 2013 12:34 utc | 126

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Dec 10, 2013 7:34:23 AM | 126

i remember when 'they hate us for our freedoms'

and given the NSA scandal, when it comes to hacking....

Posted by: brian | Dec 10 2013 13:06 utc | 127

Rupert Murdoch may want to have a word with one of his puzzle setters (via Guardian Australia)
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/dec/10/murdoch-is-evil-the-message-hidden-in-a-sunday-telegraph-childrens-puzzle?CMP=fb_gu

Posted by: brian | Dec 10 2013 13:32 utc | 128

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Dec 10, 2013 7:34:23 AM | 126

Rowan, the only person AFAIK who went to jail for posting stuff related to the Stratfor hack was Barrett Brown, who had posted links to locations online where one could find the credit card numbers revealed in the hack.

Plenty of other people (including bloggers) posted newsworthy material from the Stratfor hack without retribution.

In other words, you needn't have deleted anything from your - quite valuable - blog.

Posted by: [Name Redacted] | Dec 10 2013 13:38 utc | 129

in regard #126

London's biggest university bans student protests

‘The Guardian’ falls under the shadow of McCarthyism

“Some of the criticisms against you and The Guardian have been very, very personal. You and I were both born outside this country, but I love this country. Do you love this country?”

Spain is favorite destination of the UK (this UK might come to the end soon!) tourists however there are not in love these day. Gibraltar is contention isssue and high up in relation between two countries. That's why we can find this article in ElPais, otherwise no less neoconsevative than the Telegraph. Malice of Spain is therefore understandable, although not justifiable - their regime isn't much different.

In both countries they embraced mixture of feudalism and fascism is noticeable trait. Power structure must be preserved at all costs. New tool is McCarthyism employed by Her Majesty servants. If Karl Polanyi was alive he might add new chapter to his book.

"Do you love this country?" or "Are you good American?" (George Stepandopulous of ABC) are statements which are usually directed at naturalized citizens who are not "integrated" well, that question in no, no for born ones, and to showdown with its perceived enemies such in this case.

Hobesian state of affair is emerging in its native land. This and those "theories" are usually applied to distant land ruled by "irrational" and "detached" rulers. Now it is back to its creators own native land. Cheers!

Posted by: neretva'43 | Dec 10 2013 13:47 utc | 130

They call themselves the Syrian Electronic Army, a group of four young students angered by what they consider is the spread of misinformation and lies by foreign news organizations. To date, the group has claimed attacks on dozens of Twitter accounts and at least two blogging platforms belonging to western news organizations — all in the name of defending their homeland.

Their targets include some of the largest news organizations in the world, including Agence-France Presse, Al Jazeera and Thomson Reuters. In April, a tweet they sent from a compromised Associated Press account caused the Dow Jones to drop more than 100 points.

Occasionally dismissed by security experts as a nuisance, their antics have captured the attention of the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the U.S. Army. Both agencies warn that more attacks by the SEA are to be expected.

In May, The Desk interviewed with two Syrian Electronic Army hackers — “Shadow,” a hacker who conducts phishing attacks for the group and “Th3Pr0,” one of the group’s leaders. It was the first comprehensive interview with leaders from the group, offering insight on the collective’s makeup and tactics that had, up to that point, been a mystery.

On December 11, The Desk will conduct the first-ever live interview with members of the group. The Q&A session is scheduled to start at 2:00 p.m. ET. Readers can submit questions for the group during the interview, or can submit questions before the interview by emailing thedesk@matthewkeys.net.
http://thedesk.matthewkeys.net/2013/12/05/the-desk-to-conduct-first-live-interview-with-syrian-electronic-army/

Posted by: brian | Dec 10 2013 14:00 utc | 131

cont. #130

while Most people classed as being in poverty 'have job'

from State owned BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25287068

Posted by: neretva'43 | Dec 10 2013 14:07 utc | 132

Canada to lay claim to North Pole amid Arctic resources rush

"Baird said Canada had filed a preliminary submission to a special United Nations commission collecting competing claims and would be submitting more data later."

In respone to the above,

Putin Orders Strong Military Presence in Arctic

Posted by: neretva'43 | Dec 10 2013 14:21 utc | 133

What appears to be urgent meeting Putin has said:

"“I request that you pay special attention to the deployment of infrastructure and military units in the Arctic,” Putin said at an expanded meeting of the Defense Ministry Board."

Posted by: neretva'43 | Dec 10 2013 14:23 utc | 134

Neretva'43: there has long been a very powerful ultra authoritarian and anti-democratic faction at the highest levels of British government. That the Empire was run as a despotism and governing as such meant that, generation after generation traditions of ruthless efficiency and a complete contempt for foreigners reinforced the Establishment culture.

The basic rule in their tradition was "divide and rule" and wherever the British went the ground is stained by internecine and sectarian conflicts: Northern Ireland, Sri Lanka, the sunni ruled, shia inhabited Gulf states like Bahrain, Malaysia, Burma the Indian sub-continent where the Raj's retreat took place while millions were dying or being driven into exile; Nigeria, Kenya, Uganda; the divide between African and asian communities in Guyana; Fiji. And of course Palestine...And now the Empire has come home with a vengeance, and the former rulers of half the world are reduced to exercising their viciousness on, and extorting their luxurious lifestyles from, the common people of England. (The Scots have seen this movie before so they are opting out.) The question is how long it is going to take to wake the British out of their slumbers.

Rowan, thank you for the information on The Independent. Quite possibly its status as a capitalist enterprise was unknown to some. No doubt they imagined that it was a co-operative.
Most of us however will have realised that all these media are owned by capitalists, aim at making profits and reinforce, while developing, the ideology of the ruling class. So everything they publish should be viewed critically.

You seem to go much further and advise people not to read anything written by Patrick Cockburn, one of the most honest, courageous and principled reporters in the media. And Fisk, too, who nobody seems to like, you also recommend be avoided. Hersh of course has been disposed of and the Angry Arab is not much better. So where does that leave us? Should we rely on you for our news? That would seem to be asking too much from a one man blogging operation on the east coast of England, even one fluent in Arabic and Farsi.

In the end almost all "news" is tainted by the culture it comes from. But some publications, and The Independent is one, rely on their star reporters to compensate for their relative lack of resources. This allows people like Hersh and Cockburn to assert their independence and to report what they see. This in turn gives their work an authenticity that the ordinary reader prizes, which in turn gives the "stars" even more room for independence.

Hence Hersh's LRB piece which is going to grow powerful "legs" of its own. And Cockburn's on the genocidal campaign being waged against the shia.

You disagree with Cockburn because he has failed to repeat your increasingly obsolescent theory of "deniability." As has been pointed out to you, the days of "deniability" in the relationship between the Sauds and the White House are in the past. Anyone who has been paying attention understands that Brennan's CIA works even more closely with the Sauds than the agency has in the past. And that whatever Salafists do in Syria can be attributed to the US which sponsors their sponsors. Only fools believe otherwise.

Finally as to Counterpunch. There are always articles in it, apart from Comrade Proyect's DVD reviews, that nobody else has. It provides a very useful and attractive forum for a variety of views. I look at it every day and often read everything it publishes. I would advise anyone to bookmark it and check it out for themselves. Yes, there are pieces there with which most of us will not agree. And that is good. Brains need stimulating.

Posted by: bevin | Dec 10 2013 15:02 utc | 135

New Оте́чественная война?

I do not think that Putin is going to allow it. Russia has stopped them at its southern border in Syria, at its East border Russia is building AF base in Belarus. Kalingrad's enclave is full of Iskander's tactical missiles.

There is big struggle about Ukraine, http://en.ria.ru/world/20131210/185430480/Ukraines-Future-Lies-With-Europe--NATO-Commission.html where Russia (with China's deep pocket) have a slight advantage. It seems there will be no "new Grobachev".

Anglo-Saxon's partnership, and their extended hands such as Canada and Sweden (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/12/05/uk-sweden-spying-idUKBRE9B40AJ20131205) are resuming desperate measure to reclaim its supremacy.

They definitively were outflanked in Syria by Russian foreign policy and that CW crisis. No Timisoara is going to take place and execution of its leader this time around. It is interesting to note of diversifying alliance in newly emerging world of BRIC plus other vs. ultra-extremistic, chauvinistic and rapacious evangelists's protestant-zionists-wahhabi-japanese alliance.

Hersh and Cockburn have plenty to write about. Their "only" duty is to "love its country", not commit some faux pas. They are grown boys and I am sure they will be fine.

Posted by: neretva'43 | Dec 10 2013 15:19 utc | 136

your - quite valuable - blog. Posted by: [Name Redacted] | Dec 10, 2013 8:38:47 AM | 129

Thank you kindly. Now as to you, bevin, you are far too well educated not to realise that you have exploited a nefarious informal fallacy in your casual dismissal of my entire worldview, by which I mean not my philosophy but my view of the world as it actually is. You are attempting to argue that the concept of 'deniability' is completely reduced to worthless meaninglessness by the observation that it may no longer be 100% effective. This is logically analogous to telling a rape victim who asserts that secrecy regarding rape is the norm in her culture, that her statement is meaningless because she herself is invalidating this secrecy norm by speaking of it.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Dec 10 2013 15:44 utc | 137

I remember, Парад Победы 2012 or Victory Day Parade, of Mr. Putin's speech and these words.

"We all should remember how the war starter and analyze the reasons, learn the lessons of this war, they are still relevant today. I'd like to stress today that strictly following law, respecting sovereignty and free choice of every nation is one of the guaranties that the tragedy of this war will never happen again."

Posted by: neretva'43 | Dec 10 2013 15:49 utc | 138

Posted by: bevin | Dec 10, 2013 10:02:22 AM | 135

"here has long been a very powerful ultra authoritarian and anti-democratic faction..."

Whenever someone refer to "democracy" as a metric or measure of societal order I stopped reading that text.

Posted by: neretva'43 | Dec 10 2013 16:02 utc | 139

cont. #139

some call it Freudian slip, and some hidden association.

to me, references to "democracy" is reflection of one's cultural and ideological origin, one's who was bamboozled long enough with an imperial education, that is of globalist, imperialists, and colonial one. Literally taken democracy is oxymoron.

Posted by: neretva'43 | Dec 10 2013 16:15 utc | 140

Yes, neretna, bevin is a humbug. Now there's a word to treasure. Calling P Coburn (or anybody else, for that matter) " one of the most honest, courageous and principled reporters in the media" is pure, classic humbug. Another point for you, bevin: you are tilting a a straw man of your own device, in re the Independent, and on top of that you seem to have built the straw man wrongly. You write, with what I suppose you imagine to be subtle irony:

Quite possibly its status as a capitalist enterprise was unknown to some. No doubt they imagined that it was a co-operative.

Perhaps you are unaware that co-operatives are capitalist enterprises. Perhaps you imagine that they exist in a sort of virtual reality outside of the capitalist economy. Perhaps you imagine a great many things that have not been subjected to reality-testing. I rather think you do. But in any case, my point was not that the so-called "Independent" was a capitalist newspaper, but that it was a party newspaper, namely the newspaper of the vile Lib Dems, who stole the last election from Labour and handed it on a plate to the Tories.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Dec 10 2013 16:35 utc | 141

Pissed Off American @18

Yes, the means justify the end when the "end" is a belligerant dictatroship relinquising its CW and both sides in the Civil War coming to the table for peace talks. Brought to you in living colour by the global capitalist partnership of the Gentle Bear and the Gentle Giant.

Many people get all worked up about inside intelligence and diplomatic beisbol. Intelligence Services, politicians and diplomats lie? Shocking, shocking news there. Putin doesnt lie either when it suits his purpose? Lavrov?

Just sayin, sometimes there is justified meaningful and righteous anger. It doesn't sound from the comments that Hersh is all that exercised over his own revelations. They weren't much to write home about in fact. The My Lai and Abu Ghraib revelations, now those were meaningful journalism. Because they revealed something horrific that, uhhm, actually happended.

The leaking of the mysterious cable which determines no guilt of either party at Ghouta? Under the circumstances, not so much, except to certain fire breathers such as yourself, perhaps.

Posted by: donkeytale | Dec 10 2013 16:43 utc | 142

Proyect @ 97

Nice satire. I see that you are being compared to me in the barrage of ad hominems tossed at each of us.

Soon we will be determined to be sock puppets of each other. Lol.

Same as it ever was among the polarised herd.

Posted by: donkeytale | Dec 10 2013 16:47 utc | 143

@143:

Doubt's nearness to the heart must become bitter to the soul.
Shame and honor are together where a man's undaunted
courage is chequered with its opposite, as is the color of a magpie.
He may still become happy, since both heaven and hell have a share
in him. The companion of disloyalty, on the other hand, has black
for his color and takes on the shade of darkness. A man with
steadfast thoughts clings to white. This flying example is much too
swift for the stupid; they cannot figure out what it means, because it
will run clear away from them like a rabbit scared by sound.

Posted by: Tazor Raoule | Dec 10 2013 17:11 utc | 144

Let's get back to the effin' issue, OK? I say "Al-Qaeda" is fake, always has been fake. I have stacks of evidence. The fact that AQ kills US troops is irrelevant: "military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy" (H Kissinger). The only thing that has changed is that AQ used to be run by the CIA, and in some places still is (al-CIA-duh). In other places, and in particular in the mid-East, it is now run by Bandar the Royal Bastard. And Israel is in bed with that. OK? So Hersh, Coburn, et al are all either fools of knaves, or most probably both. OK?

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Dec 10 2013 18:25 utc | 145

Brown Moses article now available at Foreign Policy:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/12/09/sy_hershs_chemical_misfire#sthash.qsUWqEdy.dpbs

Posted by: blowback | Dec 10 2013 18:53 utc | 146

Posted by: neretva'43 | Dec 10, 2013 9:21:35 AM | 133

is that why Greenpeace was there? the soft hand of US foreignpolicy

Posted by: brian | Dec 10 2013 21:03 utc | 147

Posted by: blowback | Dec 10, 2013 1:53:36 PM | 146

as we know from SEA Van Dyke revelations hack, Brown Moses aka Elliott Higgins has been putting his foot forward as a safe 'independent' critique of the syria war

Posted by: brian | Dec 10 2013 21:05 utc | 148

Come on donkeytale, give yourself some credit. Your bizarre ideations and fatuous gasbaggery is truly unique, no one could ever confuse it with the impotent wheezings of a broken, principle-free snipe like Louis Proyect.

Posted by: guest77 | Dec 11 2013 0:55 utc | 149

"Let's get back to the effin' issue, OK? I say "Al-Qaeda" is fake, always has been fake."

Rowan, I really don't understand your bizarre pissing on Hersh as he has reported that the US funds al Qaeda, so to just spin this notion that "he's a stooge who won't/don't see the connection" is frankly preposterous.

http://thinkprogress.org/security/2007/02/25/10609/hersh-qaeda/

Posted by: guest77 | Dec 11 2013 1:21 utc | 150

Looks like Elliot Higgins clown is now officially moving into the next phase of his career as the soundtrack to the CIA produced horror flick going on on in Syria. Congratulations, asshole.

Posted by: guest77 | Dec 11 2013 1:53 utc | 151

The more I read the new Hersh article, the more it appears that his inside intelligence sources are trying to shape the narrative, especially among the left, who have become increasingly skeptical about the Ghouta events over the past several months. Following weeks behind Giraldi's article about American intelligence doubts and the smearing of Syrians (including Mother Agnes Mariam) who have raised doubts about the reported facts from the August scene in Ghouta, the timing of Hersh's article seems to be more about spin.

In the absence of the context of the Israel Lobby's and Israeli right's (especially Bibi's) concerted pushing for intervention in Syria over the past two decades, Hersh's account frames the near attack on Syria as a plan that Obama has been trying to implement for years and finally got his opportunity in August. Giraldi clearly implicated faulty Israeli intelligence:

In a scenario unfortunately reminiscent of the lead up to Iraq, the National Security Council tasked the various intelligence agencies to beat the bushes and come up with more corroborative information. Israel obligingly provided what was reported to be interceptions of telephone conversations implicating the Syrian army in the attack, but it was widely believed that the information might have been fabricated by Tel Aviv, meaning that bad intelligence was being used to confirm other suspect information, a phenomenon known to analysts as “circular reporting.” Other intelligence cited in passing by the White House on the trajectories and telemetry of rockets that may have been used in the attack was also somewhat conjectural and involved weapons that were not, in fact, in the Syrian arsenal, suggesting that they were actually fired by the rebels. Also, traces of Sarin were not found in most of the areas being investigated, nor on one of the two rockets identified. Whether the victims of the attack suffered symptoms of Sarin was also disputed, and no autopsies were performed to confirm the presence of the chemical.

In contrast, when Hersh mentions the Israelis, they are our partners and helpers. AIPAC-backed congressional hawks, who have been beating the drums for intervention are presented as Obama's stooges. Conservative pundits and MSM publishers who have been complaining for over two years, every time that Obama has resisted yet another push to attack Syria, are depicted by Hersh as just a little over-enthusiastically caught up in Obama's cherry-picked facts, so that they forget to issue the retractions his administration gives out. The closest Hersh gets to touching on pressure from interventionists is in a paragraph near the end, when one of his intelligence sources criticizes the R2P neolibs in his administration as the "Samantha Power wing:"

following the release of the UN report on 16 September confirming that sarin was used on 21 August, Samantha Power, the US ambassador to the UN, told a press conference: ‘It’s very important to note that only the [Assad] regime possesses sarin, and we have no evidence that the opposition possesses sarin.’
It is not known whether the highly classified reporting on al-Nusra was made available to Power’s office, but her comment was a reflection of the attitude that swept through the administration. ‘The immediate assumption was that Assad had done it,’ the former senior intelligence official told me. ‘The new director of the CIA, [John] Brennan, jumped to that conclusion … drives to the White House and says: “Look at what I’ve got!” It was all verbal; they just waved the bloody shirt. There was a lot of political pressure to bring Obama to the table to help the rebels, and there was wishful thinking that this [tying Assad to the sarin attack] would force Obama’s hand: “This is the Zimmermann telegram of the Syrian rebellion and now Obama can react.” Wishful thinking by the Samantha Power wing within the administration. Unfortunately, some members of the Joint Chiefs who were alerted that he was going to attack weren’t so sure it was a good thing.’

Hersh's New Yorker article from six years ago, The Redirection, tells more about the context for the Ghouta events than his latest article in the LRB.

Posted by: Rusty Pipes | Dec 11 2013 2:11 utc | 152

SST says that the White House pressured the Post to cancel Hersh's article.

Posted by: wevin | Dec 11 2013 4:34 utc | 153

@152 Rusty Pipes.

good point. why did Hersh completely ignore all the stories about israeli "intelligence" on this issue. Susan Rice's office had Israeli officials in it, helping shape US policy.

Hersh is part of the game -- keep that in mind. use him wisely.

Posted by: wevin | Dec 11 2013 5:14 utc | 154

Gaddafi wanted to unite Africa but thanks to US/NATO's bombing, #Libya now finances al-Qaeda and African disunity
http://www.mathaba.net/news/?x=627695

Posted by: brian | Dec 11 2013 8:18 utc | 155

Rowan, I really don't understand your bizarre pissing on Hersh as he has reported that the US funds al Qaeda, so to just spin this notion that "he's a stooge who won't/don't see the connection" is frankly preposterous. Posted by: guest77 | Dec 10, 2013 8:21:46 PM | 150

Well, I'm sorry I shouted, so to speak. But I get so alienated, I sometimes feel like the one-eyed man in the country of the blind. Hersh is not saying in that interview (interesting though it is), that the CIA created AQ as a global pseudo-gang which would pop up on command anywhere in the world where the US desired to send troops, commit a few spectacular atrocities, then get out of the way before it found itself in a situation where whatever it did it would lose its essential credibility as the great sworn antagonist of USraeli power worldwide. But this is nevertheless what I am quite certain is the truth.

There is enormous psychological difficulty in formulating this view. To begin with, we all know that anyone who says 9/11 was a staged event is drummed out of the mainstream media. This would certainly happen to Hersh if he said it, too. But I have no reason to believe he thinks it. It is, for most people, psychologically unthinkable. Compare Chomsky, for instance, who has explicitly denied on many occasions that 9/11 was a staged event. Again, I have no reason to believe that he is just saying that, while privately knowing otherwise. There are certain questions that an ordinary man or woman just cannot bring themselves to ask. I believe that it requires a rather intense and cloistered sort of training (one could almost call it, a brainwashing voluntarily submitted to), to bring an ordinary man or woman to the point where they can be 'initiated' into this sort of super Top Secret, utterly compartmented knowledge, and even then, they are only 'initiated' in stages, by being 'read into' one TS/SCI compartment after another, each of which more and more obviously implies that AQ is working with and for CIA, while being carefully observed by their superior officers. And when eventually the penny really drops, neither they nor their superior officers will actually spell it out. It's something known and shared by a certain sort of look in the eyes, not something said.

I fancy that I know about this stuff, not because I've read too much John Le Carré, or because I was ever 'initiated' or 'read into' anything, but because I had an unusually badly disciplined upbringing, and despite innumerable thrashings from schoolmasters and prefects, I never, as the Zionists put it, 'internalised' the values of the society around me. That's why I never had a 'career'. I was in fact more or less unemployable, because of my antagonistic mindset, and I am very lucky to have belonged to what was probably the last generation in the UK to be able to get away with a life of unemployability. Not that any of that makes me happy; I am, as I said, savagely alienated, and it hurts. In most ways, I would rather have 'internalised' the mindset of the herd, because then I could have had a 'career', and presumably I could have married and become the father of a family, which is the deepest happiness most humans can ever experience, if not the only happiness (think of another one, if you can).

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Dec 11 2013 9:13 utc | 156

what a irony:
Syrian Activist who condoned kidnapping of Nuns from Maloula has herself been kidnapped. https://now.mmedia.me/lb/en/nowsyrialatestnews/524930-prominent-syrian-activist-razan-zeitoune-kidnapped

The extremist group who kidnapped her issued a statement saying they hope she extends same understanding as her statement relating to the nuns
.....
In October 2011, the European Parliament awarded Zeitoune, along with four other activists in the Arab world, the Sakhorov Prize for Freedom of Thought.
=====================

so freedom of thought award given to sedionist? if someone sought to bring down the EU or any euro govt , can they to get the Sakhorov Prize for Freedom of Thought.

Posted by: brian | Dec 11 2013 9:19 utc | 157

US media blacks out Seymour Hersh exposé of Washington’s lies on sarin attack in Syria

According to the Huffington Post, “Hersh wrote that he was told by email that [Washington Post] Executive Editor Marty Baron decided ‘that the sourcing in the article did not meet the Post’s standards.’”

This comes from a newspaper that published an editorial on August 22, before any investigation into the Ghouta attack had taken place to verify that poison gas was used, let alone determine the perpetrator, demanding that Obama order “direct US retaliation against the Syrian military forces responsible” and adopt a plan to establish a no-fly zone.

Joining in the silence of the major media organizations are the publications of pseudo-left groups such as SocialistWorker.org (the International Socialist Organization) and International Viewpoint (the organ of Pabloite groups such as the French New Anti-capitalist Party). They have chosen as well to ignore Hersh’s damning exposé, which comes as no surprise since it exposes their own complicity in promoting Washington’s lies as part of their pro-war and pro-imperialist policy.

Posted by: john francis lee | Dec 11 2013 9:24 utc | 158

So Seymour Hersh tells Amy Goodman that the CIA now views Bashar al-Assad as "the only game in town". If the CIA and the White House now back him against the dreaded al-Nusra front, isn't it incumbent on the left to back the CIA and Barack Obama in a popular front against Islamofascism as Christopher Hitchens dubbed it? This Islamophobia that is running rampant here in competition with Harry's Place circa 2004 is a warning that classless "anti-imperialism" is going to serve you poorly in a complex struggle.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/assads-favorite-nun-to-meet-republican-conservatives
Assad’s Favorite Nun To Meet Republican Conservatives

Praise for “courageous” Hersh report on rebels. Ted Cruz cancels on her for Mandela funeral, but Louie Gohmert takes a meeting. posted on December 10, 2013 at 9:59am EST
Rosie Gray BuzzFeed Staff

WASHINGTON — Mother Agnes Mariam of the Cross, the Lebanese nun who is one of the most prominent critics of the Syrian opposition, has arrived in Washington to persuade Christian conservatives that their interests are aligned with Syria’s dictator.

“Some senators and some politicians are interested because they are motivated concerning the fate of minorities, especially Christians,” said Mother Agnes, who had a scheduled meeting with Sen. Ted Cruz canceled for the funeral of Nelson Mandela, but who will meet House conservatives. “Yes I am happy to meet them and to address this issue because it is an issue related to human rights.”

(clip)

Posted by: Louis Proyect | Dec 11 2013 10:42 utc | 159

Louis, its got nothing in particular to do with Islam. It's religio-phobia in general. I feel just the same about the catholic fascists.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Dec 11 2013 13:05 utc | 160

Rowan, I haven't noticed predator drones being aimed at Catholic extremists lately.

Posted by: Louis Proyect | Dec 11 2013 14:14 utc | 161

Posted by: Louis Proyect | Dec 11, 2013 9:14:00 AM | 161

the predator drone called Louis is aimed at the syrian state, now hes helped destroy libya

Posted by: brian | Dec 11 2013 14:16 utc | 162

Louis runs interference for alqaeda...along side EU regime and Uncle Sam and Israels favorite Canadian politician is happy to see islamic terrorists plunder the middle east, so long as israel is untouched.

Posted by: brian | Dec 11 2013 20:55 utc | 163

The Assad regime has won the support of fascists and far-right nationalist parties and organizations across Europe. These include the National Front (France), Forza Nuova and CasaPound (Italy), Golden Dawn and Black Lilly (Greece), the British National Party (UK) and the National Rebirth of Poland, Falanga and All Polish Youth (Poland).

This support can be attributed to: anti-imperialist/anti-globalism sentiment with a strong focus on national states (they believe the Assad regime protects the Syrian state against US imperialism), Islamophobia (they believe the Assad regime fights Islamic extremists), anti-semitism (they believe Assad’s regime acts as resistance to Israel). All of these beliefs rest on fallacy and an uncritical perpetuation of regime narratives.[1] They are also positions shared (although without the racist element) by sections of the left. Another reason is likely to be concern about increased Arab migration to Europe where fascists in a number of countries have protested against and harassed Syrian refugees.[2]

full: http://tahriricn.wordpress.com/2013/12/11/syria-who-are-assads-fascist-supporters/

Posted by: Louis Proyect | Dec 11 2013 21:58 utc | 164

oooh, this is gonna be good!

Posted by: ruralito | Dec 11 2013 22:20 utc | 165

@164, Assad has spoken out against "political Islam". In so far as the quasi-christianists are agin it, their interests overlap. Castro collaborated with the CIA too, to get guns; the state dept thought they could co-opt the revolution and direct it towards their own candidate, whoever that may have been.

Posted by: ruralito | Dec 11 2013 22:36 utc | 166

Lenin himself, you know, the unrepentant Marxist, had to renege on his socialist principles during the civil war with the Whites.

http://www.marxists.de/russrev/trudell/civilwar1.htm tells it.

Posted by: ruralito | Dec 11 2013 23:11 utc | 167

Tony Cartalucci has a good piece on Higgins, Whitaker and Van Dyke I found it ICH:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37083.htm

@164
"The Assad regime has won the support of fascists and far-right nationalist parties and organizations across Europe. These include the National Front (France), Forza Nuova and CasaPound (Italy), Golden Dawn and Black Lilly (Greece), the British National Party (UK) and the National Rebirth of Poland, Falanga and All Polish Youth (Poland)."

And if this is true, so what?
I can only assume that Proyect's support of the Saudi/NATO assault on Syria stems from his belief that dissolving nation states (cf Iraq) is internationalism; that supporting wahhabi massacres demonstrates tolerance for the other guy's culture; and showing solidarity with salafist guerrillas (albeit actually agents of the Empire) is anti-racist.

As to the list of fascist organisations, including the French Fronte Nationale, being accused of anti-semitism (Proyect's word for anti-zionism) this is unfair. Most of them are supporters of Israel, whose racism and brutality appeal to them and whose fascist government makes them proud. This last, I suspect, is something they have in common with Louis "the unrepentant imperialist."

Posted by: bevin | Dec 11 2013 23:50 utc | 168

So interesting to see you people "spin" fascist support for the Baathists. I have no intention of convincing you that you are wrong. I am just curious to hear your "explanations", the most amusing of which is that Fidel Castro "collaborated" with the CIA. With so many posts here blathering about CIA support for the Syrian rebels, you have to wonder whether any of you believe in anything at all. There's a word for that. Nihilism.

Posted by: Louis Proyect | Dec 12 2013 0:45 utc | 169

bevin@168

I only glanced at the the TC article on Syria ... but I'd like your view, if you have one on 'Tony Cartalucci'. Is he an actual person or a collective ?

As I say I don't pay much attention to him, but he raised his head here in Thailand by not just attacking Thaksin ,,, which is consistent with his other positions ... but by siding with the fascist 'elite' which use Thaksin as their bogeyman in order to make their repeated and endless smash and grabs for power in Thailand.

Labelling Thaksin as a neoliberal whose interests are not Thailand's in the larger sense is coherent, but the ones he champions ... and he now has a blog in Denmark actively championing the fascist 'elite' and attacking the forces championing democracy here, they call themselves the ADD, or AFDD and the Nitirat ... the ones he champions are as neoliberal and uninterested in Thailand's real interests as is Thaksin. The leaders of the Democrat Party in Thailand are literally English Tory Toffs.

So why the distinction without a difference from TC ?

I did notice him defending a dam the Chinese where ramming through in Burma when the Burmese military, even, finally walked away from it as clearly in no one in Burma's interest. Can it be that TC is part of a Plutocrats' Republic Hasbara ?

Posted by: john francis lee | Dec 12 2013 0:52 utc | 170

Posted by: Louis Proyect | Dec 11, 2013 4:58:53 PM | 164

Typicl Louis dodge:

does Assad supports the Golden dawn? noone can prevent the enemy of my enemty becoming my friend, esp if youve no idea they have becmoe your 'friend'

Louis must have a lot of alqaeda supporters now...the difference he is also supports them...Assad does not support the fascists and hes too buisy battling Louis buddies to take any interest in who likes his FB.

Assads friend also include late president Chavez, who said the syrian resistance (the one led by Assad) was an eg to other movements to resist US imperialism

======================

Louis: '(they believe the Assad regime protects the Syrian state against US imperialism),
thats a fair bet, when the US imperialism which Louis is supporting is using Louis friends to attack syria and kill syrians.

Increased arab migration to europe...anything to do with increased european war in middle east?

and : 'Islamophobia (they believe the Assad regime fights Islamic extremists)'

its hardly 'believe' when even the WH admits alqaeda and its affiliates is in syria, trying to free syria of its shia/christian inhabitants.
===========================

what Louis is shy on is telling us why he supports Alqaeda in syria.It is because:
1 hates Assad (stands in the way of real democracy led by the SNC)
2. hates syrias ally Iran ( dictatorial antidemocratic enemy of israel)
3. hates islamophobia

really: why is this fellow allying with islamic terrorism?

Posted by: brian | Dec 12 2013 0:58 utc | 171

@Louis

It is only a mistake of history that these fascist clowns are driven to support the Syrian government in its struggle. They are able to pantomime support for Assad in the same way they can pantomime support for the "common man" of Europe - because the sitting governments have muffed the social and foreign policies of their country so badly, that they've made even lip service appear to be honest concern.

Perhaps you're easily misled by the incessant bleating of the European fascists, but make no mistake Louis. What is happening in Syria is actually the polar opposite of what the fascists would like to see in their country. With its secularism, it's multi-ethnic character (the largely Sunni army and mixed government and ethnic minority leader), a mix of religions and ethnicities living and working side by side for centuries before this horrific tragedy (which to your never ending discredit, you so loudly support) took place - the government in Syria is the exact opposite of what scum like the Golden Dawn seek in their own country. Of course the Golden Dawn wants something far more similar to the al Qaeda ideology you're so enamored with. They want the same essence, with just of a different complexion.

That said, it really is good news for us though that the fascists in al Qaeda and the fascists in Europe can't get along - each assured of their own supremacy. The end point of all the hatred in their ideology - at each others throats before they've even finished with us! The fools! Do you really think the Golden Dawn and the UKIP want anything to do with Russia, Louis? With Iran? I don't think so.

But you of course know all this Louis. Yet you participate in the brow beating of nuns, in the attacks and censoring of small journals. What you seek (publicity? attention?) by being such an active participant in a struggle that will never see your children die in - I don't know. But that's your choice. So no one is expecting you to change your mind Louis, but if you could see clear to keep your trap shut a bit and let the people with something at stake in this speak, that would be victory enough.

Posted by: guest77 | Dec 12 2013 2:16 utc | 172

jfl @170
I don't know about T Cartalucci. I occasionally come across stuff of his at ICH and invariably, so far as I can recollect, agree with him.
He's certainly right in this case. Or, to put it an other way. I agree with him.

2169
"So interesting to see you people "spin" fascist support for the Baathists...."

We've heard that affected drawl before, Louis.

You've read how "we" spin "fascist support for the baathists" and we know how you spin "marxist" support for the fascists. What you haven't explained, doubtless because you're just slumming here and we wouldn't understand, is why you labour 24/7 to apologise for imperialist crimes.

It would be understandable if you were just confused.
Or, not being able to think for yourself, had glommed onto Cliff's old alibi "Neither Damascus nor Riyadh but ...etc etc."

But you don't stop there. It's a mission: Assad must go.
Bandar and Brennan are right.
(The CIA and al qaeda as Louis's "useful idiots." Cut to cunning chess playing, Louis Proyect - he wears expensive but worn handwoven tweeds; elbows patched with suede; a Persian cat purring in his lap- playing them like an old violin! What a master of strategy! The Clausewitz of Staten Island! A pipe perhaps, like Sherlock Holmes? Let's think about that one. On the wall: a faded print of the Finland Station.)

What's it all about?
Brown (Give us a job, guv) Moses, we understand; but what's in it for you?

It makes no sense.
There is no possible justification for a "Marxist" to line up with the people you do voluntary PR for: they are actual practitioners of fascist policies, actual genocidalists, targeting alawi, christian and other minorities and massacring them. They don't just dress like fascists or run book stores featuring Mein Kampf, they specialise in the intimidation of civilians. And they are supported by the US and UK governments. They are trained and armed by CIAgents, the SAS and the other architects of the new Libya.
You don't believe it? Are you still promoting the idea that these thousands of armed "rebels" are revolutionaries? Are they at your beck and call? Do they correspond through the Marxist Mailing List!
Are you insane? Or just out of your depth?

Posted by: bevin | Dec 12 2013 2:49 utc | 173

mea culpa: I seem to recall Castro making a deal to spring mafioso Santos Trafficante from jail in Havana, pre Bay of Pigs, for military hardware. But I can't find the link, if it exists.

Posted by: ruralito | Dec 12 2013 3:09 utc | 174

@Rowan

I understand your position, and the passion with which you hold your beliefs. And I always respect those who can hold unpopular ones - especially when they're principled.

You're depth of knowledge is astounding. You'd absorb a book or two while I'm still trying to spell "rogue", no doubt.

Posted by: guest77 | Dec 12 2013 3:27 utc | 175

Gov. Mike Huckabee ‏@GovMikeHuckabee 9 Dec
Mother Agnes - Mother Superior at the Monastery of St. James in Qara, Syria - on the situation in that country
http://www.mikehuckabee.com/_cache/files/f63d7020-b8c1-478b-a308-1cf14503d2ce/Mother%20Agnes%2012%209%2013.mp3?utm_content=buffer2f32e&utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer

Posted by: brian | Dec 12 2013 8:05 utc | 176

Thanks again, guest77. Now, Louis, you must understand that the fact that [x] expresses rhetorical support for [y] simply tells you nothing about [y]. Indulging in this kind of guilt by involuntary association is a very common Jewish weakness in argument. The furthest you could go to turn it into a genuine argument would be to use the wartime legislative norm which bans "giving aid and comfort to the enemy." But since the US no longer bothers to declare war on any country before destroying it, considering themselves so incomparably superior to the little target that such diplomacy is unnecessary, that argument shouldn't legally have any force. Of course, the US nowadays bends the law into any shape they wish, usually using a new class of argument which they learned from the Jews, which is the idea of "hate" legislation. But legally this is an absolute morass, when you try to make laws regarding people's supposed feelings, as Spinoza pointed out a very long time ago, in his "Tractatus Politico-Theologicus".

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Dec 12 2013 8:09 utc | 177

“It’s not hard to make sarin. You could mix it in the backyard. Two chemicals melded together.” — Seymour Hersh interviewed on CNN, December 9, 2013.

The idea that the chemical warfare agent, sarin, is easy to make is central to Seymour Hersh’s claim that the August 21 attacks killing hundreds of Syrians could have been carried out by the rebel group, the Al Nusra Front. (With unquestioning confidence in the reliability of his source(s), Hersh rests this claim on classified intelligence reports none of which he claims to have seen.)

Hersh’s backyard sarin production appears to be concocted from fiction. The only non-state actor known to have engaged in large-scale sarin production was the Japanese cult, Aum Shinrikyo. They invested $30 million in this endeavor which included the creation of a production facility.

full: http://warincontext.org/2013/12/11/how-easy-is-it-to-make-sarin

Posted by: Louis Proyect | Dec 12 2013 13:08 utc | 178

Thanks again, guest77. Now, Louis, you must understand that the fact that [x] expresses rhetorical support for [y] simply tells you nothing about [y].

---

Nobody should ever assume that fascists are fighting in Syria because they are Baathist ideologically. They are there because they hate Muslims. For example, the BNP, whose top goon Nick Griffin was invited to Syria for an official visit, is trying to drive Muslims out of Britain. Here, read it for yourself, although I am sure it will have little impact on people so driven by Islamophobia as you.

http://www.islamophobiatoday.com/2010/10/05/bnps-new-northern-ireland-organiser-gets-to-work-inciting-hatred/

The BNP has taken its race hate message to Larne. Skinhead members of Nick Griffin’s far-right party spent the last week leafleting homes in the Co Antrim seaside town. They put scaremongering mail through doors warning about a new asylum seeker centre which is being built in Larne.

The BNP news-sheet includes a fake picture of two Muslim women dressed in burkas walking down the Glenarm Road. The leaftlet states: “The good folk of Larne do not want their town being used as a dumping ground, holding centre, or whatever name the liberal elite wish to call it. No matter how much sugar coating is applied to this foul tasting proposal, the Ulster BNP … will not have the wool pulled over their eyes.”

(clip)

Posted by: Louis Proyect | Dec 12 2013 13:15 utc | 179

@178
'Hersh’s backyard sarin production appears to be concocted from fiction. The only non-state actor known to have engaged in large-scale sarin production was the Japanese cult, Aum Shinrikyo. They invested $30 million in this endeavor which included the creation of a production facility."

We're not dealing in Syria with an isolated and marginal cult, but with mercenaries backed by Saudi Arabia, the NATO powers and Israel. Not to mention yourself.

@179
This is very old news. The BNP is anti-immigrant in general and anti-muslim. It is also pro-Israel and pro-imperialist.
I suppose that, like other salafists, you do not regard shiah or sufi as muslims. Or is there another reason why you persist in calling opponents of the massacres of non-wahhabi muslims, (who constitute the majority of those killed in the Syrian crisis that you call a "revolution"), "islamophobes"?

@177
"Indulging in this kind of guilt by involuntary association is a very common Jewish weakness in argument. ..."
"...Of course, the US nowadays bends the law into any shape they wish, usually using a new class of argument which they learned from the Jews, which is the idea of "hate" legislation."
Both of these statements are just silly, Rowan. Simply re-reading them will convince you of this.

Posted by: bevin | Dec 12 2013 14:34 utc | 180

Thank you bevin. Endowed with your new supernatural PC Vision, my eyes are able to pierce through the dense fog of my own hateful ideology at long last. I now see that both of my statements are indeed "simply silly."

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Dec 12 2013 14:46 utc | 181

Indulging in this kind of guilt by involuntary association is a very common Jewish weakness in argument.

---

Thank you for confirming my suspicions that Moon of Alabama is a pole of attraction for scum. Bye-bye.

Posted by: Louis Proyect | Dec 12 2013 15:18 utc | 182

guilt by involuntary association?

Well, as long as it's involuntary.

So long LP, maybe some day your blog will be popular too.

Posted by: ruralito | Dec 12 2013 15:29 utc | 183

Rowan, it has nothing to do with Political Correctness. Both generalisations are unsupportable by anything more than casual anecdotal 'evidence'.

I am certainly not suggesting that you have a "hateful ideology". I don't suppose that you do. Nor do I much care.

The point is that to make such statements is to call for contradiction or agreement. The statements being "silly", in that you characterise common fallacies, to be found in many cultures, as the invention of a religious sect. "Guilt by involuntary association" is by no means a "Jewish weakness in argument." You must be able to establish that much for yourself, which is why I suggested re-reading what you had written.
As to the idea of "hate legislation" being "Jewish" surely you are aware of the ancient precedents as in lese majeste, blasphemy and similar laws designed to protect powerful groups from criticism?
There is a peculiar racism in this view of the Jewish culture which coincides with that of the more excitable zionists: both are premissed on the nonsense of a chosen people, unusually gifted, or malicious, unusually wise, or cunning.
Racism is racism. And it is objectionable as much because it distorts reasoned thinking and honest observation, as for any other reason.

Posted by: bevin | Dec 12 2013 15:47 utc | 184

I grant you that the comparison with blasphemy laws is worth exploring. In fact, I have a theory about this. It is the product of a twisted but scholarly mind (my own). The theory is that the current thought-crime laws are actually crafted on the old blasphemy laws. Consider the fashion for "denial" laws. In my opinion, this sort of legislation, and the whole cultural drive behind it, is revenge for the dreadful Question of the Inquisition, "Do you deny Christ your saviour?" It's mirroring. And this is an extremely Jewish thing, like answering a question with a question. And Louis knows that this sort of reflection is commonplace among thoughtful Jews.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Dec 12 2013 18:04 utc | 185

@RB, so, is this a cultural thing, or is it hard-wired into Jewish genes?

Posted by: ruralito | Dec 12 2013 19:00 utc | 186

Rowan: Incorrigibility is one thing. Persistent stupidity is another. If you want to epater le bourgeois, you will find him elsewhere. There is nothing new about this anti-semitic banter. It is boring.

Posted by: bevin | Dec 12 2013 21:25 utc | 187

Posted by: Louis Proyect | Dec 12, 2013 10:18:47 AM | 182

check out Louis' comment section for a chorus of scum

Posted by: brian | Dec 12 2013 22:04 utc | 188

Posted by: Louis Proyect | Dec 12, 2013 8:08:21 AM | 178

a jewish marxist blogger defending fundamentalist alqaeda terrorists....to a chorus of yes men commentators....

and a visit from Louis wouldnt be complete without his latest passion: anti-islamophobia...just when fundamentalist muslims are rolling over free and secular states, to convert all to ther religion and send the rest to the next life, Louis comes to their defence...
Posted by: Louis Proyect | Dec 12, 2013 8:15:32 AM | 179

what would Marx say?!

Posted by: brian | Dec 12 2013 22:09 utc | 189

Surprising Louis is allowed here as his own site is well known for banning dissidents

Posted by: brian | Dec 12 2013 22:10 utc | 190

Syrian refugees facing extreme hardship as blizzards hit region

Hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugees are enduring blizzards, biting winds and freezing rain as the worst winter storm for decades sweeps across the Middle East.

Aid agencies are warning of extreme hardship, particularly among families living in flimsy tents.

According to Oxfam, around two-thirds of the 1 million Syrian refugees in the country have settled in the Bekaa Valley and north Lebanon, which are especially prone to harsh winter conditions.

Temperatures have also plummeted in Jordan and Turkey this week. Many refugees have only the thin summer clothes in which they fled Syria, and are now sleeping on thin mats or blankets laid on the freezing ground.

"The severe snowstorm this week in Lebanon and Jordan is just the beginning of winter misery for the hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugees struggling to combat the bitterly cold and wet conditions," said Nigel Timmins of Oxfam.

"Many families are facing winter in makeshift tents and unfinished buildings, unable to afford to buy fuel to run heating stoves, extra clothing or blankets. Flimsy tents are prone to flooding and are likely to collapse under the weight of snow."

"Many of the children don't have proper shoes, they are wearing flip flops, and most only have summer clothing. Some families have small stoves but can't afford wood, so they are burning plastic bags and grocery boxes. It's very dangerous for the children to breathe the smoke from these fires. But they told me: 'We have two choices – freeze to death, or die from the smoke'."

A refugee named only as Ibrahim, 27, told Reuters: "The storm will finish us. It's freezing now. I seek refugee in God." His children were huddled round a fire in a metal crate in the corner of his tent as strong winds blew snow in the entrance. The dirt floor had turned to mud.

Certainly seeking refuge in Bibi, Barack, or Bandar will do no good. The three terrorist, killer b's are responsible for the destruction of these Syrians' homes in Syria, and are most satisfied with the suffering of the Syrians.

Posted by: john francis lee | Dec 13 2013 0:54 utc | 191

"Nobody should ever assume that fascists are fighting in Syria because they are Baathist ideologically."

Oh, now we are to believe there some BNP brigades fighting for Assad in Syria? How many divisions has Nigel Farage, Louis? How does your fictitious Condor Legion stack up with the concrete, daily news that show the tens of thousands of genuine al Qaeda fascists - the real kind Louis, the murder-women-and-children-by-the-dozen kind - that are in fighting as the so-called rebels, CIA/KSA/Israeli equipment in hand?

The fact that you've hung your revolting support for these sectarian terrorists on something so remote to the actual struggle as the words of some fascist nitwits a continent away shows how utterly out of touch you are with the situation Louis.

You're so desperate to cover for the fact that you are so utterly and completely wrong about this you've descended into inventing complete fictions based on tangets. It's just like your suggesting that we are Islamophobes when we are simply opposed to fascism and sectarian murder, there's no "there" there, Louis.

But I suppose to pass Louis litmus test of not being an Islamophobe means we have to accept the sectarian murder. That's certainly the most bizarre plea for tolerance I've ever heard, but it is hardly the most bizarre argument Louis has made during his whole sordid turn from "the unrepentant marxist" to "the irredeemable fascist apologist".

....

And after I was stupid enough to discuss Rowan's "principles", he comes out with something abominably stupid - you sound like a US nuclear negotiator, fuck's sake. We knew Louis would eventually gallop away on his high horse, but did you have to saddle it up for him?

Posted by: guest77 | Dec 13 2013 5:24 utc | 192

@RB, so, is this a cultural thing, or is it hard-wired into Jewish genes? Posted by: ruralito | Dec 12, 2013 2:00:26 PM | 186

I have always, I mean, since I started to think about international affairs in the 1960s, when I was in my mid teens, shared the dogmatic Left-wing view that personality, character or behaviour traits are not hard-wired but cultural, ie "nurture" as opposed to "nature". I am perfectly happy to admit this is dogma, because I don't think anyone can possibly say categorically where genetic inheritance starts and ends. But this view is a fundamental dogma that logically defines the entire Left-wing stance, because if we took the other view, we would be forced into a form of racism. It wouldn't necessarily be full-blown racism, in the literal sense, because it would still be possible to say that the question was merely one of "gene-pools", rather than "races". And it would still be possible to admit that these "gene-pools" overlap, so that "race" distinctions are quire unrealistic, the whole thing being merely a matter of statistical frequencies, not of absolutes. But the underlying anthropological question remains, whether character traits are hereditary or learned. "Race" is a sort of superstition, in my view, and in the view of the Left at large. It is, after all, impossible to make sense of it unless you have what amounts to a superstitious view of human origin and dispersal.

The most basic "race" theory is polygenetic: it refuses to believe that the entire human race is descended from one source, usually located by monogeneticists in Kenya or thereabouts. According to the polygeneticists, humans appeared independently at a number of points in different continents. For them, in effect, "humans" in fact constitute a number of separate sub-species. I call this a superstition because I cannot imagine any evidence for it, and I can see that its purpose is purely ideological. Underlying serious racism is the idea of a species-like distinction between different human groups in different continents, so that "Europeans", "Asians", "Africans" and "Native Americans", to name the obvious continental blocs, become in effect differemnt species, competing for survival against one another in a pseudo-Darwinian way, and the purpose of this idea is obviously to legitimise racial war, up to and including the annihilation of opposed "races" by one another, in the name of "homo superior", so to speak, ie the survival of the superior "race" in the face of threats by "subhumans" who share nothing with "homo superior" except the external appearance of hominids. I have simply never had any time for this kind of thing. In fact, in a morbid way, I find it rather funny: some of the literature is bizarre in a kind of science-fictional way.

But in any case, even for those who believe all of the above, "Jews" constitute an apparently insoluble conundrum, and they know it (by "they", I mean those responsible for propaganda strategies). We have observed the increasing interlock between right-wing Zionists and anti-Asian racist groups, in most parts of Europe, in the US, and in the UK. "Jews" can be presented as "whites" and hence "on the same side" in the "race war" against "Asians". My multiple sneer quotes are intended to indicate my view that none of these terms has any scientific validity, they are all ideological, or even, as I said, superstitions. Different "races" have their own competing "gods", and thus "the whites" are forced to abandon Judeo-Christianity and reconstruct the lost cults of Odin, Thor, Freya and so on, ie the Norse pantheon. And there are Jewish agents involved in many of the white supremacist movements. The first time I observed this was in relation to the city of Brussels, oddly enough. Brussels contains a small and wealthy Jewish community, especially involved in the diamond industry. This Jewish community has actually funded and supported "white" groups agitating against Muslims in the city. So you see how cynical and opportunistic the whole "race" racket is.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Dec 13 2013 5:24 utc | 193

"Hersh’s backyard sarin production appears to be concocted from fiction. The only non-state actor known to have engaged in large-scale sarin production was the Japanese cult, Aum Shinrikyo. They invested $30 million in this endeavor which included the creation of a production facility."

Louis appear to be basing his argument that there is simply no way the rebels could have had sarin. It's not that they wouldn't use it. It's that they simply just could not have gotten their hands on it.

This shows the utter weakness of his whole argument. It is based on his trying to prove a negative. Despite the fact that Syria has been at war for two years, with the front lines seesawing back and forth over god knows what kinds of military installations in a country which was, by all accounts, lousy with CW. Despite the fact that during a war, something valuable like that may end up in almost any hands for whatever price. Despite even the fact of the sarin being picked up in Turkey - Louis will assume (because he cannot know) that there is simply no way that this huge army, capable of fighting a country wide war and backed by the richest, most politically unaccountable states on the planet could never get its hands on some sarin gas.

Coupled with his bizarre attempt to hang those bumbling European fascists around the neck of Syria, I think we've seen how truly weak his argument is. It would be interesting to see b take on these points - but they are almost too weak to even bother with. Our host probably should waste his time with a second rate stronzo like Proyect.

That said, I am impressed that he came to have a debate of sorts. It is always interesting to find out what the arguments of the opposition are - I think you often find that often they are not even related to the arguments you are making. Of course we might have found out a little more had Rowan not accused him of making a "jewish argument", but so it goes.

Posted by: guest77 | Dec 13 2013 5:51 utc | 194

god damn it, I've gone and mixed the UKIP and Farage for Nick Griffin and the BNP.

But you all have probably learned by now I have a bad habit of not proofreading my screeds...

Posted by: guest77 | Dec 13 2013 5:59 utc | 195

I should be interested to hear from bevin how he explains the fall from primeval democracy into ancient tyranny, without invoking "race". There seems to me to be a real puzzle here: First of all one would say, the peaceful primeval democracies were overwhelmed by tyrannies from outside. But what made these tyrannies into such? Were they not also primeval democracies, prior to becoming tyrannies? The second line might be to say, it's only in favourable climates that primeval democracy happens; in more stringent latitudes, only the fiercest survive & thrive. But this amounts to a "race" theory.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Dec 13 2013 15:44 utc | 196

Race is such a nebulous concept that using it involves lengthier definitions than I'm ready to attempt here.
But most of your riddles, it seems to me exist because of your premisses, which are derived from old speculation.
The "climate theory" that you advance, for example: what evidence is there that the opposite, that in harsh climates co-operation and democracy are vitally important, is not the case? And that tyranny is not a luxury for those most bounteously provided ?

The truth is that speculation is no substitute for studying the shreds of evidence that we have. And that tends to suggest, firstly that property in land was a very late development even in Britain the gap between the popular calls for Land Nationalisation, smallholdings (Jesse Collings' two acres and a cow) and the shocked reaction to Enclosures "You can't do this! It is our land too!" is a matter of a few decades.
Secondly, that a rough consultative process, involving both men and women, seems to have operated in almost all early societies. The model of the wendat/iroquoians is the one with which I am most familiar but it seems to e remarkably similar to the "mythical" as the Whig Historians insist, "things" or Witanegamots that Major Cartwright and the leveller traditions asserted were the predecessors of Parliaments.

I think it was Trotsky who said that Freud was like a man looking down a deep well and making shrewd assessments of what was there, while Pavlov simply jumped into the well and began to work his way up, taking notes. I very much doubt whether that is an accurate description of those two men. But it seems to me that what we need in anthropology and history is much more of starting at the bottom and working slowly upwards, because most historians start by assuming that societies evolve from one stage to another. Which easily leads to justifications of authoritarianism and biological determinisms.

It is not a coincidence that imperialism keeps on re-discovering variants of racism. As soon as one "scientific" theory is finally buried, another pops up. The latest, being promoted by the British Tories, seems to be that inequality is derived from DNA! There is no end to this sort of rubbish because, without racism or inherited inferiorities, class rule and imperialism are clearly exposed as nothing more than criminality.

Posted by: bevin | Dec 13 2013 16:41 utc | 197

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