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September 21, 2013

Open Thread 2013-20

News & views ...

Posted by b on September 21, 2013 at 17:40 UTC | Permalink

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Real News - Lawrence Wilkerson

US & Iran Move Closer to Negotiations But Neo-Con Objectives Attempt to Pull Them Apart

Posted by: somebody | Sep 21 2013 17:55 utc | 1

Interesting that many of those pushing for tougher US gun laws also,want to send more arms to Syrian terrorists.

Posted by: Andoheb | Sep 21 2013 18:28 utc | 2

Why are Iraqis still gathering in crowds after the recent spate of car bomb attacks? Seems idiotic

Posted by: Andoheb | Sep 21 2013 18:32 utc | 3

obama cant stop and with syria and with the zionist rhodes writing his speeches..

Report: Obama to demand assad to step down next week at the UN

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 21 2013 18:58 utc | 4


Rather your comments seems idiotic, iraqis cant meet now?

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 21 2013 18:59 utc | 5

Will the Israeli soldier killed by Palestinian hurt any talks with Iran. And is it a staged event to do so?

Posted by: therevolutionwas | Sep 21 2013 19:18 utc | 6


Why would it? The murderer has been caught, have nothing to do with Iran.
Besides what "talks"?

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 21 2013 19:44 utc | 7

re 3. Why are Iraqis still gathering in crowds after the recent spate of car bomb attacks? Seems idiotic

If you're religious you have to go to prayer, and markets, well you have to live.

Posted by: alexno | Sep 21 2013 20:03 utc | 8

Can anyone tell me who wrote the "red-line" speech for Obama?

Posted by: g_h | Sep 21 2013 20:15 utc | 9

@9 its my impression that was a off-the-cuff remark. I don't know for sure though.

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 21 2013 20:18 utc | 10

Here's a new hit job on a dead man. This surely makes that trashy film "The last King of Scotland" look like a masterpiece of peer-reviewed historical research. Writing books specifically to salve the guilt of murderous western liberals is surely a growth industry.

Gaddafi's Perverted Power Plays
He abducted young women as sex slaves and forced them to take drugs and watch porn. He raped his male guards, soldiers, and ministers. Annick Cojean talks about her new book on Gaddafi's cold-blooded sexual debauchery.

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 21 2013 20:27 utc | 11

I support tougher US gun laws and NO WEAPONS TO THE SO-CALLED REBELS IN SYRIA.

No weapons for Assad either. And no weapons for the US military either.

Posted by: Susan | Sep 21 2013 20:27 utc | 12

Just to update people on the Iraqi situation.

There are a lot of bombs against the Shi'a, and a lesser number against the Sunnis. One could imagine that the bombs against the Sunnis are a response.

Who is driving the Sunni bombings? One possibility is the native Sunnis of Iraq. They were in rebellion against the US occupation, at Haditha, for example. They were defeated then, and the question will be whether they are ready to revolt again. I don't get that impression. It almost happened when there was a massacre of Sunnis earlier this year.

The Baghdad government is sectarian, without doubt. I've had no success in asking for a scholarship for a

Posted by: alexno | Sep 21 2013 20:45 utc | 13

George Galloway: "I'm not trying to change the heart of of a former advisor to Ariel Sharon, assuming such a thing exists...."


Posted by: guest77 | Sep 21 2013 20:53 utc | 14

to continue:

for a Sunni from Mosul.

The defeatist attitude of the Iraqi Sunnis suggests that the aggression is from elsewhere, from the foreign jihadis supported by Saudi.

I don't suppose that my analysis is quite right, but close.

Posted by: alexno | Sep 21 2013 20:55 utc | 15

90 more Killed in latest Iraq car bomb attacks. Western "humanitarians" could not care less. Just dumb sand niggers killing each other.

Posted by: Andoheb | Sep 21 2013 21:00 utc | 16 things seem to be looking up for the "moderates" /sarc

Posted by: somone else | Sep 21 2013 21:01 utc | 17

There probably have been hundreds of car bomb attacks in Syria and Iraq the past few years

How long before we see this in Europe and then the US?

Posted by: Andoheb | Sep 21 2013 21:09 utc | 18

This man is a brilliant artist and writer. He captures the America that exists outside of the gentrified areas of a few big cities.

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 21 2013 21:26 utc | 19

re 15. 90 more Killed in latest Iraq car bomb attacks. Western "humanitarians" could not care less. Just dumb sand niggers killing each other.

Ok, so what's your explanation of what's happening?

Posted by: alexno | Sep 21 2013 21:26 utc | 20

AP reporter Dale Gavlak saying Prince Bandar threatening her over Syria chemical weapons story exposing 'rebel' use of CW:

Posted by: revenire | Sep 21 2013 21:43 utc | 21

@4 - that wouldn't be a surprise.. it is all about regime change as the main excuse for making war, even if the plundering of others resources is left out of the conversation.. is cass sunstein (samantha powers husband) indirectly writing speeches for the obama us dept at the un yet?

Posted by: james | Sep 21 2013 22:15 utc | 22

@19 Complete with a comment from Louis Proyect, that scumbag.

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 21 2013 22:16 utc | 23

Wow. More shocking news from a dying America. The continuing exploitation of Native peoples. From the excellent MintPress News.

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 21 2013 22:38 utc | 24

Via The Keiser Report, Get your barf bags ready:

Give Back? Yes, It's Time For The 99% To Give Back To The 1%

Imagine ... if the moral praise showered on Mother Teresa went to someone like Lloyd Blankfein, who, in guiding Goldman Sachs toward billions in profits, has done infinitely more for mankind.

I'm not a violent guy, but the author here is really asking for a vigorous pitchforking.

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 21 2013 23:00 utc | 25

No western BS about duty to protect when the victims are Shiites.

Posted by: Andoheb | Sep 21 2013 23:17 utc | 26

Unbelievable. A genuine al Qaeda terrorist pays a $100 and goes free. But Manning rots in jail.

An Army veteran from Phoenix charged with joining a terrorist group to fight against the government of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad pleaded guilty to a lesser charge and was sentenced to time served.

Former Pfc. Eric Harroun, 31, had been accused of fighting alongside Syrian rebels, including Jabhat al-Nusra, a group the U.S. had designated as a terrorist organization, according to an FBI agent’s affidavit filed with the original charges in March.

via the Angry Arab

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 22 2013 0:03 utc | 27

Pakistan has released its highest-ranking Afghan Taliban prisoner in an effort to jump-start Afghanistan's struggling peace process.
Also, I think I picked THIS up here,for which I'm very grateful!

Posted by: Maracatu | Sep 22 2013 0:04 utc | 28

Demographics=the future. That's what "Spengler" said in his book How Civilizations Die but he misapplied his analysis wrt Israel and the US. He claimed that Israel was expanding demographically and then asserted that it was due to the Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox. Basically, those are the Jews who collect their welfare cheques and sit on their tookuses all day and who depend on their leaders to read Torah and issue fatwas telling them how to behave (instead of hijabs their married women have to shave their heads and wear ugly wigs) while the secular Jews go out and fight for them and then leave Israel. Meanwhile the Palestinians are having big families. So at the end of the day there will be no Israel. All the Arabs have to do is sit and wait.

Posted by: Albertde | Sep 22 2013 0:40 utc | 29

This is an excerpt from Fisk in The Independent today: Russia has released details of the countries which bought ther rockets used in the "sarin attack", Syria is not among them, Libya is.

"... information is now circulating in the city that Russia's new "evidence" about the attack includes the dates of export of the specific rockets used and – more importantly – the countries to which they were originally sold. They were apparently manufactured in the Soviet Union in 1967 and sold by Moscow to three Arab countries, Yemen, Egypt and Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's Libya. These details cannot be verified in documents, and Vladimir Putin has not revealed the reasons why he told Barack Obama that he knows Assad's army did not fire the sarin missiles; but if the information is correct – and it is believed to have come from Moscow – Russia did not sell this particular batch of chemical munitions to Syria.
"Since Gaddafi's fall in 2011, vast quantities of his abandoned Soviet-made arms have fallen into the hands of rebel groups and al-Qa'ida-affiliated insurgents. Many were later found in Mali, some in Algeria and a vast amount in Sinai. The Syrians have long claimed that a substantial amount of Soviet-made weaponry has made its way from Libya into the hands of rebels in the country's civil war with the help of Qatar – which supported the Libyan rebels against Gaddafi and now pays for arms shipments to Syrian insurgents...."

Posted by: bevin | Sep 22 2013 1:19 utc | 30

What a f*cking smear job by the Grey Lady of Mother Agnes... A Nun Lends a Voice of Skepticism on the Use of Poison Gas by Syria

“The fact that the Russian government is relying on this woman’s assessment of what happened just shows the lack of evidence for their case,” said Lama Fakih, a Syria researcher for Human Rights Watch. “She is not a military expert.” {...}

“This led me to become a hippie,” she said with a grin.

She fell in with foreigners who came to Lebanon for the drugs — “Lebanese marijuana is the best in the world,” she said — and traveled to India and Tibet before returning to religion.

Wtf, over...?

Posted by: CTuttle | Sep 22 2013 1:33 utc | 31

and now for the laugh of the week : USregime pledges to being islamic terrorists to justice

';In Washington, the White House and State Department condemned the attack and promised to help the Kenyan government bring the perpetrators to justice.
"We will continue to stand with the Kenyan people in their efforts to confront terrorism in all its forms, including the threat posed by al-Shabab," the White House said in a statement. "This cowardly act against innocent civilians will not shake our resolve."'

meanwhile in SYRIA US ARMS terrorists who kill civilians

Posted by: brian | Sep 22 2013 1:57 utc | 32


note they dont attack Mother Agnes evidence just her person...and HRW joins in: lets make this go viral

is HRW a military expert? and why are they more to be trusted?

Posted by: brian | Sep 22 2013 2:10 utc | 33

The Israelis being typical d*ckheads again... Diplomats delivering aid roughed up by Israeli soldiers

Not just the UN, but even the EU want's answers... EU tells Israel to explain seizure of Palestinian aid

Posted by: CTuttle | Sep 22 2013 2:36 utc | 34



Posted by: Jeremiah Cornelius | Sep 22 2013 2:39 utc | 35

@guest77 | 25

"Embattled analyst Elizabeth O’Bagy had provided one of two affidavits for the defense that suggested Harroun was not as dangerous as the government’s initial charges and Harroun himself made him sound. The affidavit provided breakdowns of rebel groups and their varying affiliations to al-Qaida-linked terrorists, bolstering Harroun’s defense that he fought with a splinter group and not a terrorist one."

Only in America, certified lier openly lies to the court with an affidavit and gets an Al Qaeda terrorist off the hook. And thats the law and justice US wants to impose on the rest of the World :x

Posted by: Harry | Sep 22 2013 3:48 utc | 36

All the Arabs have to do is sit and wait.
Posted by: Albertde | Sep 21, 2013 8:40:36 PM | 27

That's bonk and wait, which works better than whinge and wait, or wait and wait.

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Sep 22 2013 4:11 utc | 37

4) this here is the original

With respect to the resolution, this will be a process of negotiation with the Russians. Now, they have made clear their opposition to the use of force. I think what Chapter 7 provides for is a baseline that there needs to be consequences for noncompliance, and then an opportunity for the Council to debate a range of potential sanctions that run the spectrum, with military action obviously being the most significant. And that’s what we'll be debating in the drafting of the resolution and through the implementation of the Chapter 7.

So again, we would want to see the strongest enforcement possible. There's a range of consequences that are available to the Security Council in enforcing a Chapter 7 resolution. And again even as we are pursuing that course of action through the U.N., we’ve made clear that given our concerns about chemical weapons, we are not forsaking the option of the United States and our allies taking military action in support of the prohibition on the use of chemical weapons.


He'll also note that the chemical weapons issue is one part of a broader challenge in Syria, and that there needs to be a political resolution to the civil war that removes Assad from power and puts in place a new, inclusive government for all the Syrian people.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 22 2013 4:53 utc | 38

9/10 no it was very deliberate, thought through statement during a press conference

something along the lines of

"made clear with Assad and other players on the ground use of chemical weapons would change the calculus"

Now one should assume incompetence first and a devious plan second, presumably it was politics mainly to assure everybody that the US will protect Israel, however, it was an invitation for a false flag by interested parties.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 22 2013 5:15 utc | 39

19, revenire, wow

Gavlak pitched this story to MintPress on August 28th and informed her editors and myself that her colleague Yahya Ababneh was on the ground in Syria. She said Ababneh conducted interviews with rebels, their family members, Ghouta residents and doctors that informed him through various interviews that the Saudis had supplied the rebels with chemical weapons and that rebel fighters handled the weapons improperly setting off the explosions.

When Yahya had returned and shared the information with her, she stated that she confirmed with several colleagues and Jordanian government officials that the Saudis have been supplying rebels with chemical weapons, but as her email states, she says they refused to go on the record.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 22 2013 5:36 utc | 40

Posted by: CTuttle | Sep 21, 2013 10:36:52 PM | 32

they should sanction israel

Posted by: brian | Sep 22 2013 5:55 utc | 41

review of The Devil Never Dies: The Rise and Threat of Global Antisemitism by Daniel Jonah Goldhagen.

Posted by: Toth | Sep 22 2013 6:41 utc | 42

What doddering paranoid old fools... Saudi Arabia bans 'vendetta' masks ahead of National Day

Posted by: CTuttle | Sep 22 2013 6:55 utc | 43

This person seems to be doing a good job investigating the attack and refuting the HRW and mainstream media analysis:

Posted by: Robin Miller | Sep 22 2013 6:59 utc | 44

The New York Times weighs in on the Dale Gavlak issue trying to make it sectarian by association - they already had to put one correction under the article they should put another correction under it

Ms. Muhawesh, who studied journalism at St. Cloud State and worked briefly as an intern at a local news station before launching MintPress, declined to name the “retired businesspeople” who provided the financial backing for her site in an interview with the local news site MinnPost. She did say, though, that her Jordanian-born father-in-law, Odeh Muhawesh, was an important adviser.

Mr. Muhawesh is chief executive of a software company and an adjunct professor of theology at the University of St. Thomas. In one of his lectures on theology available on YouTube, Mr. Muhawesh describes himself as a former Sunni Muslim who converted to the Shiite sect. His personal Web site begins with a clear affirmation of his Shiite beliefs in a statement that says true peace, “according to my faith, will occur when Imam Mahdi, the 12th Imam, will appear along with the second coming of Jesus the Messiah.”

This is scandalous. It is like saying "The NYT's editorial policy of defending Saudi Arabia detrimental to facts and American values is evident by the Jewish upbringing of its editorial editor".

Point 2 where they get their facts wrong. Dale Gavlak's and Yahya Ababneh's article does not claim to explain how August 21 chemical attacks happened, all they claim is that interviewees confirmed "rebels" had Sarin.

Abdel-Moneim said his son and 12 other rebels were killed inside of a tunnel used to store weapons provided by a Saudi militant, known as Abu Ayesha, who was leading a fighting battalion. The father described the weapons as having a “tube-like structure” while others were like a “huge gas bottle.”

Posted by: somebody | Sep 22 2013 7:13 utc | 45

@11 I would suggest that no matter how "debauched" a dictator might be, the first rule of The Dictator's Handbook is: Rule 1 Never ever ever rape your male bodyguards. They don't like it and they have guns.

Posted by: Johnboy | Sep 22 2013 7:15 utc | 46

add to 42) There is something else the NYT suddenly lets creep in from one article to another which is obviously intentionally wrong

The article’s central claim, however, that hundreds died outside Damascus on Aug. 21 because Syrian rebels carrying poison gas in tubes and a “huge gas bottle” had “handled the weapons improperly and set off the explosions,” seems to have been undermined by the findings of United Nations weapons experts who visited the site of the chemical attack. As my colleagues Rick Gladstone and C.J. Chivers explained, information gathered by the U.N. inspectors suggested that poison gas in shells with Cyrillic markings was fired into rebel-held areas on the outskirts of Damascus from the direction of Syrian government forces.

As the NYT state themselves in a different article:

The Cyrillic markings were found on a rocket engine not on shells. The UN investigators did neither find nor analyze shells - they explicitely say that the warhead was not present at the site of impact. The Russians say these obsolete rockets from 1967 were delivered to Libya and Egypt but not to Syria. This is clearly disinformation. Will we get a correction?

Some people are getting desparate the false flag is obvious.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 22 2013 7:34 utc | 47

@28 All very interesting, and possibly even true, but until ol' Fiskie can get a Russian official to go on the record then his article amounts to little more than scuttlebutt.

Posted by: Johnboy | Sep 22 2013 7:51 utc | 48

Sorry for posting here what should be on the Syria thread, but... well... you know why...

This is from a blog, articles in French can be found through Google, about the visit of a Belgian MP to Assad a few days ago. The last paragraph, on Jumblatt's statement, is revealing.

Syria’s Bashar al-Assad stressed that he will seize the power and people will decide who will rule the country during the presidential elections taking place in 2014. Assad stated that Syria’s existence is on the verge of the abyss. Assad’s words are quoted by the Member of the European Parliament Véronique De Keyser after a one-hour meeting held by both parties last Thursday.
Speaking to the Belgian press, De Keyser said after her meeting with the Syrian president many messages are to be concluded pointing out that, “The first message surprised me because Assad told me that he is not holding onto power because he has another life however he will let the ship sink.”
The Belgian politician added that Assad stressed that “Syria’s existence is on the verge of the abyss, Syria the secular country, tolerating the minorities also the national unity is in danger too however extremist Islamic groups leave no choice to any regime but fighting them.”
As for the credibility of this speech, De Keyser declared that ,”People are reiterating that Syria is about to disappear, the president is saying such words too probably using them for propaganda but the truth is that Syria is disappearing. The culture, the heritage and the Christians in the East, all are in danger.”
Member of the European Parliament quoted Assad’s wish to see the presidential elections outcome to decide who will be in power in 2014.
In this context, De Keyser pointed out that, “The Lebanese leader Walid Jumblatt whom I met in Lebanon is not friends with Assad. He told me that if the presidential elections took place in Syria, at least 60% of votes will be for the president because people will be afraid of Syria’s explosion, President Bashar al-Assad, represents, whether we like it or not and despite all his flaws, most of the Syrian people for he is protecting them from an external threat.”

Posted by: Mina | Sep 22 2013 9:20 utc | 50

45) this is Russia's official statement

The Soviet Union has never exported warheads with sarin to foreign countries, the Head of Russian Presidential Administration Sergey Ivanov stated Wednesday.

"No one is disputing the fact that the USSR never supplied warheads with sarin either to Syria or any other country of the world," Russian President Vladimir Putin's administration head Sergei Ivanov told reporters.

The report of UN experts says that the rocket at the site of the chemical attack in Damascus had Cyrillic characters written on it.

"Now imagine: an old, ancient Soviet rocket and warhead, which came out of nowhere. This alone should raise big questions. And second, the committee found large tanks at the site:near which traces of sarin were found. Not a single army of the world ever uses such tanks. So they were almost surely made in someone's backyard," Ivanov said.

The UN found no warhead on the site with the rocket bearing Cyrillian engravings (the 1967 Soviet rocket). They found a warhead with 56+-6 liters capacity on the second site with the unidentified rocket.

That is also an add to 44) The NYT suddenly finds Cyrillic markings on shells - they do not exist in the UN report

Posted by: somebody | Sep 22 2013 9:21 utc | 51

@43 The execution of Karzai's brother by his bodyguard came immediately to mind.

It's a disgusting display but perfectly in line with the western MO when destroying a country and dragging the reputation independent leaders through the mud. It's just like the "Kuwaiti babies thrown from their incubators" and other ridiculous lies.

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 22 2013 12:39 utc | 52

All of this nonsense about the "cyrillic markings" and who had what weapons where and even who has sarin or not seems to completely eclipse the fact that the country is a war zone where the government and opposition have continually see-sawed across the territory capturing this and that. This doesn't even mention the possibilities of weaponry being sold and/or stolen by criminals. That even doesn't mention the fact that the entire operation is funded and sourced by outside powers with access to anything available on the black market in this sea of weapons that is today's middle east.

The very idea that one could draw conclusions on who possesses what weapons in the foggiest of foggy wars based on who was sold what decades ago is completely ridiculous, especially when you are discussing little more than a handful of rockets.

This is all propaganda for use in talking points and nothing more. The sole purpose is so that during a media debate one can cry "cyrillic markings!" when the issue of the Syrian government's culpability comes up.

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 22 2013 12:56 utc | 53

@32 Par for the course, I suppose - the IDF throwing grenades at diplomats and aid workers.

Can you imagine if that happened in Syria? Can you see in your mind the apoplexy of State Department diplomats? Can you hear the wails of exasperation from the NGOs? The blistering fury of the International Community? The umbrage of respectable pundits everywhere?

Of course we can. But in Israel for the New York Times it's a mere "quarrel".

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 22 2013 13:09 utc | 54

obviously - from RT

The US is pushing Russia into approving a UN resolution that would allow for military intervention in Syria, in exchange for American support of Syria’s accession to OPCW, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has said.

“Our American partners are starting to blackmail us: ‘If Russia does not support a resolution under Chapter 7, then we will withdraw our support for Syria’s entry into the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW). This is a complete departure from what I agreed with Secretary of State John Kerry',” Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov told Channel 1's Sunday Time program.

Chapter 7 of the UN charter would allow for potential military intervention in Syria.

In other news the Russian Damascus embassy is hit by mortar shells.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 22 2013 13:10 utc | 55

@40 Thanks for the link the the review. I didn't realize that was the author that Norman Finkelstein and others have so rightly and roundly destroyed.

The review is well worth reading, if only because it was close enough to the mark to elicit the comment "This scurilous [sic] attack on Goldhagen is from a self-serving leftist anti-semite Jew"

I found this portion especially interesting. In Goldhagen's praising of America's 'great inclusiveness', does he imagine he can gloss over white privilege, slavery and genocide by merely nodding to their existence and then excising them from history? Of course if one sees anti-semitism as a unique evil, it must be easy to brush aside the suffering of others with a solemn phrase, but surely no rational, honest person could do such a thing.

And so, in one passage he cites an imagined history of exemplary American intergroup fairness: With the “enormous and grotesque exceptions” of blacks and Native Americans, he writes, there has never been a “call or drive for or mobilization around, let alone programs for, the creation of a racially or nationally pure America.”

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 22 2013 13:24 utc | 56

This episode in Syria has done another good thing for Russia to my mind - it has raised the profile of Sergey Lavrov and shown him to be smart, adept, and principled.

Maybe Mr. Pragma or others more familiar with Russian politics can indicate wether he'd ever be a potential nominee for the office of President when Mr. Putin's time is up.

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 22 2013 13:33 utc | 57

Here we go again, Russia being blackmailed by the US/UN on the agreement on Syria.

From RT News.

Posted by: ben | Sep 22 2013 13:42 utc | 58

Re #40, #53: Goldberg and/or Goldhagen are operating on a completely false argument, namely that "Jewish independence" (ie Zionism) "was first prescribed to cure the disease of anti-Semitism." It was prescribed, eg by Pinsker, as a way of coping with, or defending Jews against "anti-Semitism", which was assumed to be an incurable fact of life, worldwide, without convenient exceptions such as liberal USAia. The obvious prognostication that was made by intelligent Zionists from the very first inception of Zionism was that exacerbated "anti-Semitism" would act as dialectical twin to Zionism, ie both as cause impelling Jews to Zionism and as effect of their being impelled to it, thereby eventually forcing all the world's Jews to take refuge in the Jewish state as their only hope of survival. Thus the fortress mentality was built into it from the start. Nobody pretended that Zionism, and territorial independence resulting from it, would bring peace on earth and an absence of hostility towards Jews. I use quote marks around the jargon term "anti-Semitism" because I consider it basically misleading as to the various forms of militant opposition to the various forms of Jewish activity.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Sep 22 2013 13:48 utc | 59

Would not surprise me if Zionist media try to blame Iran for Kenya attack.

Posted by: Andoheb | Sep 22 2013 13:52 utc | 60

g h asked... Can anyone tell me who wrote the "red-line" speech for Obama?

Not without inside info.

I think he was coerced or at least heavily prodded to make it. He probably thought it was of not much consequence at the time. Or reckoned that it could be a support, rationale, for some ‘legit’ stance, > action, as referring to CW in Int’l law, etc., a card to be pulled out of the sleeve when needed. Or he felt the need to fix some future ‘barrier’, some pompous position that would look upright, strong, determined, and just went with it.

Remember, the US has denied several CW attacks in Syria as being perpetrated the Syria Gvmt, or anyone for that matter, and the many CW attacks (whether real or pretend with fake vids and so on) were simply ignored.

Over the space of a year, the attitude was, nothing to see here, move on.

The US did officially - the details are murky - change it’s mind about one, in Aleppo, March 2013, the most credible CW attack, stating after much to and fro-ing, that is was a CW attack, without naming those responsible. Though that was not a Gvmt. official position and lead to no action, these were statements from some pols / agencies / etc.

This all came to a head in mid August when certain factions lost patience and his red-line statement was trumpeted and used as a forcing card.

(Meaning, CW attacks in themselves are of no import, it is a political internal USisr game.)

> guest 77 thx for the photos.

Posted by: Noirette | Sep 22 2013 13:58 utc | 61

What seems so dangerous to me about his praise for America's racial history - a deeply, deeply violent and oppressive racial history - is that, because his group finds itself as one of those not oppressed, he can ignore the real crimes against others - or at least can make them disappear from the story by naming them like you would Rumpelstiltskin.

It is the most hypocritical thing I can imagine actually. I doubt it would gain any traction at all in a debate about America's history with those groups who have been victim of the "enormous and grotesque exceptions".

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 22 2013 13:58 utc | 62

@58 They're nice huh? And excellent writing as well. He's always posted at information clearinghouse. A site which always has great info, even if 90% of the commenters are scumbags.

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 22 2013 14:36 utc | 63

"...What seems so dangerous to me about his praise for America's racial history - a deeply, deeply violent and oppressive racial history - is that, because his group finds itself as one of those not oppressed, he can ignore the real crimes against others..."

To put this into its real context, the european occupation of north America not only provides a model for zionists to pursue in Palestine but, from the beginning of the English colonies in Virginia and New England was explicitly justified by a theology which cast the English as the new Israelities and America as the land God promised then gave to them.

The ethnic cleansing in Palestine was prefigured by that in New England which was justified by that described in the Old Testament.

Posted by: bevin | Sep 22 2013 14:39 utc | 64

lol @ israeli forces in nairobi!
Not surprising, region is probably filled with israeli spies.

Posted by: Anonymous | Sep 22 2013 14:41 utc | 65

The ethnic cleansing in Palestine was prefigured by that in New England which was justified by that described in the Old Testament. Posted by: bevin | Sep 22, 2013 10:39:04 AM | 61
Indeed - and it always makes me wonder about the real origins of Calvinism. There seems to be a mutual proxy relation between Calvinists and Jews, in that either can substitute for the other as righteous colonialists, half-hearted missionaries, and whole-hearted exterminators of the ungodly, not to mention dedicated capitalists, in that both believe that wealth is evidence of God's favour, and so by definition the accumulation of it cannot be an unrighteous activity. This is one of the many reasons I like Spinoza: he expresses absolute detestation of that creed.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Sep 22 2013 15:42 utc | 66

The tragedy of Mexico:

To begin with, I will say that my name is Juan, but that’s not my real name. If I were to tell you, I will probably end up like my neighbor Ramón, who soldiers took from his home in the early morning. They put him in a truck without license plates, they beat him with a board until they ripped the skin from his buttocks and then threw him unconsciously in a ditch where some dogs killed him. He left a widow who doesn’t eat nor sleep and two daughters who’ve wet the bed ever since their dad is gone. It was all because he denounced an illegal search from some “army guys” who stole some jewelry from his sister. Do you see why I tell you that my name is Juan?

Compare to:

Yes, Mexico continues to struggle with grave security threats, but it is also fostering a globally competitive marketplace, a growing middle class, and an increasingly influential pro-democracy voter base. In addition, Mexico's ties with the United States are changing. Common interests in energy, manufacturing, and security, as well as an overlapping community formed by millions of binational families, have made Mexico's path forward increasingly important to its northern neighbor.

Again, all it takes is a pundit to say a few magic words: "Of course there are still Security Threats but..." and the reality of people being butchered on a daily basis is obscured by buzzwords like "competitive marketplace" and "pro-democracy voter base" ... like so many bodies in a narco grave covered by a thin layer of dry Zacatecas dirt.

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 22 2013 15:58 utc | 67

I'm not the kind of person who believes that citizens shouldn't be allowed to have arms, the problem, though, is that the US gun industry is fueling conflicts around the world -- especially across the border in Mexico. This is an industry of death which is the equal to the drug trade - the American money making counterpart to the cash made by Mexican narcos.

An assault rifle seized during the July arrest of one of Mexico's most violent drug lords —Miguel Angel “Z-40” Treviño Morales — has been traced to a shady gun seller whose home in Big Spring was searched last week and netted what authorities said was a “small arsenal.”

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 22 2013 16:05 utc | 68

lol @ israeli forces in nairobi!

Not surprising, region is probably filled with israeli spies.

Israelis are either full or part owners of the mall, according to different versions, or even owners of the café.

Posted by: alexno | Sep 22 2013 16:15 utc | 69

The Dave Gavlak / Yahyah Ababneh rebels sarin story gets a new twist:

After much effort spent to connect Yahyah Ababneh to Russia and the Syrian regime, it turns out he also visited Israel discussing Jordan with Israelis and an article on his visit was published in the Jerusalem Post.

All this does not prove anything. But why is the story suddenly hyped after it had died down?

Posted by: somebody | Sep 22 2013 16:24 utc | 70

@70 Not to be nit=picky, but her name is Dale, and she is a woman.

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 22 2013 17:05 utc | 71

71, sorry typo.

New facts about the Syrian uprising //irony

Washington Post - Private donations give edge to Islamists in Syria, officials say

“You can even get a video afterward showing what it was you paid for,” said one senior intelligence official based in the region. The official spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss his country’s intelligence collection.

While radical groups such as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, Jabhat al-Nusra and Ahrar al-Sham have long relied on charitable giving from Persian Gulf states, the flow of private cash has enabled the extremists to retain their battlefield edge despite the loss of support from key Arab backers such as Qatar, which cut off aid to the most radical groups under pressure from the United States and Saudi Arabia, U.S. and Middle Eastern officials said.

The donations also have undermined Western efforts to ­strengthen the relative position of moderate and secularist rebel factions that are the intended recipients of U.S. weapons that began flowing into Syria last month, the officials said.

Obama administration officials say that they were working with gulf allies to shut off private cash flows but that the efforts have been complicated by the fundraisers’ under-the-radar tactics. The organizers also take advantage of lax regulations in some gulf states that allow fundraisers to set up small religious charities and canvass in mosques and other public venues, U.S. officials say.

“Much of this funding comes from private citizens in the gulf, particularly in Kuwait,” said David S. Cohen, the Treasury Department’s undersecretary for terrorism and financial intelligence. The country, a source of financial aid for extremist groups during the Afghan and Iraq wars, “unfortunately continues to be a permissive environment for terrorist fundraising,” he said.

What is more worrisome, officials say, is a new tendency among fundraisers to seek influence over the Syrian paramilitary groups they support. Some have adopted their own rebel militias and sought to dictate everything from ideology to tactics. Officials at one gulf-based organization, which calls itself the Ummah Conference, have helped promote a campaign to recruit thousands of Muslim volunteers for Syria while openly calling for a broader struggle against secular Arab governments and what one of its leaders terms “American terrorism.”

Posted by: somebody | Sep 22 2013 18:17 utc | 72

No talk about the elections in Germany? Unsurprising results I know, but most important elections in Europe. Looks like Merkel for another 4 years. Also looking like her CDU Party could get an outright majority, first since Adenauer. Awful result for the Social Democrats, the anti-Capitalist Linke Party will likely be the third largest party in Germany but considering the economic crisis they should have got more than 8.5%.

- The Guardians quick take on the scene:

More than three years into the European Union’s worst ever nightmare, Merkel, uniquely in the Eurozone, has been hugely rewarded for her handling of the currency and sovereign debt crisis. Everywhere else voters have punished governments.

Her victory demonstrates the gulf between Germany and the rest of the EU and the Eurozone, although it is not clear what impact her third term will have on the direction of the crisis.

So who are the winners and losers in all this?

Posted by: Colm O' Toole | Sep 22 2013 18:27 utc | 73

Well, Germany is gearing up to be the hegemon of europe. That isn't exactly a new idea.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Sep 22 2013 18:40 utc | 74

73) The FDP - which is the free trade party representing special interest groups - is probably finished for good - they are also out in regional elections. That means Merkel's CDU will need either the Greens or the Social Democrats as coalition partners in the future. Maybe they get an absolute majority with 42/43 percent this time, that will not last.

It is very difficult to find any difference in Social Democrat and CDU policies nowadays. The Greens have a generational problem.

There is no economic crisis in Germany. Official unemployment rate is 5.3 percent. Die Linke represents the part of German society that is dependent on transfer payments by the state. Social Democrats and Greens have similar constituencies.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 22 2013 18:55 utc | 75


"Die Linke represents the part of German society that is dependent on transfer payments by the state. Social Democrats and Greens have similar constituencies."

I don't know too much about German politics, but you seem to be pumping at the same dry well that Mitt Romney tried his hand at.

I find it hard to believe that the entire German opposition is composed of welfare recipients.

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 22 2013 19:09 utc | 76

My new favorite show:


From various sources we piece together three significant facets of the Gulf War which were ignored or distorted by the media. First is the history of the area, particularly the development of Iraq and its relationship to Kuwait; the legitimate complaints which Iraq had with Kuwait; and the various ways which the US may have manipulated Saddam Hussein in attacking Kuwait after installing Saddam in the first place and protecting him as a useful ally until the war started.

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 22 2013 19:49 utc | 77

76) Die Linke have ca. 8 percent, their programme centers on social justice exclusively. That does not mean the other parties do not have their social justice programmes. There are just slight differences in the degree of demands and the emphasis on groups. It is very difficult to feel anybody is really in opposition here. The free market FDP has been kicked out. Basically Merkel has robbed the other parties of most issues. Fukushima was the event when the Greens lost the anti nuclear case - now the CDU supports alternative energy, too.
German politics are different from US or British politics, transfer payments have always been a consensus. Merkel in her first election tried to steer the CDU to a liberal free market programme - and nearly lost against Schröder. She never tried that again.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 22 2013 19:54 utc | 78

@ 75

Certainly good news about the FDP they do seem to be the biggest losers of the night.

Even though the Social Democrats are similar in most respects to the CDU they did seem to be more interested in the growth-led recovery rather than the Austerity model. In that respect, I think Pro-Austerity also won big. Merkel has resisted all calls to ease up and now she will take this vote as a sign to continue for several more years.

In foreign policy, Merkel has never seemed all that bad compared with Cameron or Hollande. She didn't take part in Libya (although she voted for the UN resolution) and opposed the US strike on Syria with the diplomatic language of "needs to go through the Security Council". Putin and Russia may have wished for a Social Democrat win, after all Merkel and Putin aren't to friendly given the roles they played in the East/West Germany theater of the cold war. The UK will be thankful for a Social Democrat loss, since they would have taken a harder line on the UK's attempts to renegotiate EU membership. On the NSA phone tapping, I think the Yanks will be happy since Merkel is complicit in the actions, so will be reluctant to take a hard line.

Posted by: Colm O' Toole | Sep 22 2013 20:02 utc | 79

79) It really won't make any difference. Merkel cannot act unilaterally in the EU, she needs at least France - so no austerity. Germany is dependent on Gazprom, so has to talk to Russia. Merkel basically won by being completely uncontroversial.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 22 2013 20:36 utc | 80

So those Kenyan attackers were international Jihad

According to the terrorist group the attackers all between the age of 20 and 27 years old, are from various different countries and where all trained in Somalia.

Sayid N. from Kismayu, Somalia.

Zaki Jama C., from Hargeisa, Somalia

Said D., from Damascus, Syria

Mohamed B., from Aleppo, Syria

Qasim Said M., Garissa, Kenya

Ismail G., from Helsinki, Finland

Ahmed Nasir S., from London, UK

Mustafa N., from Kansas City, US

Abdishakur Sheikh H., from Maine, US

Abdifatah Osman K., from Minneapolis, US

Ahmad Mohamed I., from Saint Paul, US

Abdikarem Ali M., from Illinois, US

Shafie D., from Tucson, US

Eliko M., from Dagestan, Russia

Mohammed A., from Svalov, Sweden

Posted by: somebody | Sep 22 2013 20:49 utc | 81

Well...the spent fuel rod removal process has begun atop reactor building #4 @ fukushima.

Do you have Potassium Iodide pills in your larder?

Who knows what to believe? The pukes that profit within the industry, or the "scientists" profiting by their sensationally alarmist dire predictions about a possible extinction event if things go awry during the course of this process? Will we dodge the nuclear bullet, like we did in 1961??? (See today's Los Angeles Times) Or will our ignorance and greed finally take out a few billion of us? And, uh, would that be such a bad thing?

Posted by: PissedOffAmerican | Sep 22 2013 20:53 utc | 82

79) Looks like Merkel will need a new coalition partner. Either Social Democrats or Greens will be part of the government.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 22 2013 21:26 utc | 83

re Kenya. What is US/Israel stake here? If the past is anything to go by, US/Israel is supporting Al-Shabaab while trying to appear not to à la Libya, Syria...But I'm not seeing it. Anybody else?

Posted by: ruralito | Sep 22 2013 22:30 utc | 84

Remind us again how horrible the Russians are for banning US adoptions...

U.S. adoptive mother guilty of homicide in death of Ethiopian girl

By Jonathan Kaminsky
OLYMPIA, Washington | Mon Sep 9, 2013 11:09pm EDT
(Reuters) - A U.S. adoptive mother accused of starving her 13-year-old Ethiopian-born daughter and locking her outside in the cold, where she died from exposure, was found guilty of homicide on Monday in Washington state.

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 22 2013 22:49 utc | 85

I mean US/Israel/EU, roughly, the Reptilian Order. We know statecraft, for them, are variations on plato o plomo. But how does this work in re Kenya?

Posted by: ruralito | Sep 22 2013 22:53 utc | 86

@84 It probably goes back to Operation Provide Relief in 1992. That was basically a play for the Horn of Africa.

Posted by: dh | Sep 22 2013 22:58 utc | 87

While the rest of the billion grind it out under austerity, recession, and decline:

"Almost 10,000 people in Europe and North America have joined the world's ultra wealthy population - meaning they have at least $30 million in net assets"

Emerging markets lag as West's ultra wealthy population jumps: report

A woman exits the Louis Vuitton shop on New Bond Street, renowned for its jewelry and designer retailers, in London
August 24, 2009. REUTERS/Luke MacGregor
SINGAPORE | Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:09am EDT

(Reuters) - The number of ultra wealthy people has risen much faster in the West than in emerging markets during the past year, according to a report released on Wednesday.

Almost 10,000 people in Europe and North America have joined the world's ultra wealthy population - meaning they have at least $30 million in net assets - this year while the number of such individuals in the likes of China and Brazil has fallen.

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 22 2013 23:04 utc | 88


The NYT has a lot of nerve to use the family of a slain journalist in Syria as a means to smear a target. Considering how little coverage the NYT has given to the kidnapping and death of journalists in Syria. Especially considering their possible contribution to the death of their own Anthony Shadid (at minimum, through pressure on him to take an assignment he knew to be a great risk for him personally, as well as the flimsy transport into Syria they arranged for him). It's as though is the only journalist ever killed in Syria and that Mother Agnes was luring journalists into the peaceful town of Homs:

International rights groups see Mr. Lavrov’s reference to the work of an untrained nun as a sign of desperation.

“The fact that the Russian government is relying on this woman’s assessment of what happened just shows the lack of evidence for their case,” said Lama Fakih, a Syria researcher for Human Rights Watch. “She is not a military expert.”

There are other shadows around Mother Agnes. She has helped foreign journalists obtain visas, suggesting trust by the government. The widow and two colleagues of Gilles Jacquier, a French journalist killed in Homs last year, published a book in which they suggest that she conspired in a lethal trap set by the government.
But Sid Ahmed Hammouche, a Swiss reporter who helped write the book accusing Mother Agnes of complicity in his colleague’s death, sees her differently. “She defends the regime and plays the Christian card,” he said. “We know very well that Bashar wanted to play the Christian card, and he still does.”

Posted by: Rusty Pipes | Sep 22 2013 23:27 utc | 89

“We know very well that Bashar wanted to play the Christian card, and he still does.”

That's about the scummiest way to say "protect all the people of Syria no matter what their religion" I've ever heard.

And a whole book about Mother Agnes and the death of a single reporter? I'm sorry, but I've got a few hundred ribald pages to read about Gadaffi raping people before I could be bothered with something so droll.

Are reporters so poorly paid that they're turning to writing fiction to survive, or are they just greedy bastards with a penchant for tall tales?

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 23 2013 0:00 utc | 90

Now Wikipedia can do what it took 12 FBI agents writing unattributed smear letters to do - amplify divisions in the anti-war movement:

How can it be that the entire article is about a minor dust up with another anti-war organization instead of all the different issues and actions A.N.S.W.E.R. is involved in? The answer is obvious.

Posted by: guest77 | Sep 23 2013 0:24 utc | 91

@84, I get that. But Uhuru Kenyatta is America's boy in Africa, unlike Ghadaffi or Assad in their respective countries. This puts al-Shabaab in a different light than the one on the rent-a-jihad that assaulted Libya or Syria. I'm asking is there a fundamental difference between the two Islamist groups: one that does the work of the Saudis, Qataris and others, and one that...I don't know how to describe it, grassroots, quasi-proletarian? But from the list @81 it looks like more foreign jihadis brow-beaten by their imams to join the war like they did Libya and Syria.

Posted by: ruralito | Sep 23 2013 1:23 utc | 92

92) If he is America's boy Western media has a strange way to show it.

From the West’s perspective, a Kenyatta victory presents a conundrum. U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs Johnnie Carson warned before the election that “choices have consequences,” widely seen as a recommendation that voters should back Odinga. London has already warned that it would keep official contact with a President Kenyatta to a minimum, as it does with Zimbabwean President Robert Mugabe.

But the reality is that, in a world where Kenya finds itself as much sought after as suitor, Western powers no longer get to call the shots in Africa. In many ways, and particularly in its homegrown innovations in mobile technology such as mobile banking and solar power, Kenya personifies the new, emerging Africa of young and dynamic entrepreneurs. Its position as East Africa’s business hub has only been enhanced by its recent discovery of large reserves of oil and gas. Kenya is also a linchpin of the U.S. and European security structure in Africa, ranged as it is against Islamist groups and pirates, particularly in neighboring Somalia.

Westerners rely on Kenya in other ways too: the Kenyan capital, Nairobi, is the base of choice for much of the international community in East Africa, from large embassies to aid-group headquarters to donor conferences to security contractors. And should the West give Kenya the cold shoulder, it may find it is not missed as it once might have been: Chinese, Indian, Middle Eastern and Latin American diplomats and businessmen are also part of the fabric in today’s Kenya.

The media uses the label Al-Shahab so they do not have to say Al Qaida. Al Qaida is simply a way to organize and donate for issues some people care about. There is no way anybody can "control" it, though secret services and state actors can infiltrate and use the system.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 23 2013 4:57 utc | 93

Council on Foreign Relations - Al Shahab

How is al-Shabaab funded?

Counterterrorism experts say al-Shabaab has benefited from several different sources of income over the years, including revenue from other terrorist groups, state sponsors, the Somali diaspora, charities, piracy, kidnapping, and the extortion of local businesses. Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, Iran, Qatar, and Eritrea have been cited as prominent state backers--although most of these governments officially deny these claims.

Domestically, the group built up an extensive racketeering operation in Kismayo after seizing control of the southern port city and its vibrant economy in 2008. The trade of charcoal, in particular, is essential to the city's commerce. However, a Kenyan-led assault on Kismayo liberated the port of al-Shabaab forces in October 2012--a victory that many experts say strategically crippled the jihadi group. "Taking Kismayo has been viewed as the endgame, at least in the military phase of [AMISOM's] mission," writes James Verini in Foreign Policy. "The city was al-Shabaab's base and the port its economic engine, providing an estimated $35 million to $50 million a year to the group."

Is al-Shabaab recruiting Americans?

Al-Shabaab has recruited members of the Somali-American diaspora in recent years, a trend the FBI has described as a top domestic terrorist threat. In particular, the group has attracted several radical volunteers from Minneapolis, MN, which is home to the largest Somali population in the country. Young Minnesotans, such as Shirwa Ahmed and Farah Mohamad Beledi, the first two confirmed U.S. suicide bombers, traveled to Somalia to receive al-Shabaab training and wage jihad.

Another prominent leader for al-Shabaab was Omar Hammami (aka Abu Mansoor Al-Amriki), a native of Alabama, authorities say. Hammami had reportedly fallen out with the group as of late 2012. Other Somali-American recruits have come from Ohio, California, Virginia, New Jersey, and New York, according to a list compiled by the Anti-Defamation League.

What is U.S. policy in Somalia?

Washington's primary interest in Somalia has been preventing it from becoming a refuge for terrorist groups like al-Shabaab to plot attacks on the U.S. homeland and potentially destabilize the strategically significant Horn of Africa, where longstanding disputes among Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Somalia still fester. In recent years, U.S. officials have also been wary of collaboration amongst the militant Islamist organizations in the region, including al-Shabaab, Boko Haram, al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, and al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula.

The United States, stung by the loss of eighteen U.S. servicemen in the Battle of Mogadishu in 1993 (aka the "Black Hawk Down" incident), has largely relied on the use of proxy forces in Somalia in recent years. Since 2007, analysts say Washington has provided more than half a billion dollars to train and equip African Union forces battling al-Shabaab. Much of this indirect logistical support has been supplied on the ground by State Department-funded contractors, such as Bancroft Global Development and DynCorp.

Drone strikes and special operations raids on al-Shabaab and al-Qaeda targets have rounded out the U.S. strategy. Military analysts have characterized the Pentagon's approach in Somalia as "offshore balancing," which emphasizes the use of U.S. air and sea assets in conjunction with support for local counterinsurgency proxies, such as AMISOM.

In January 2013, the United States formally recognized the Somali government after a hiatus of more than twenty years. And while the U.S. has no embassy in Mogadishu, officials say Washington is likely to expand its diplomatic presence in 2014.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 23 2013 5:17 utc | 94

There is also the case of the Woolwich murder in London - and the way MI5/6 uses immigrant youth and their families.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 23 2013 5:39 utc | 95

The Woolwich murderer was arrested in Kenya by British forces, tortured, and returned free to the UK. Presumably they considered him "turned".

Posted by: somebody | Sep 23 2013 5:43 utc | 96

73) To explain German politics, the headlines "Merkel's victory" are misleading as this time again, there is a majority of Social Democrats, Die Linke and Greens. For lots of historical and competitive reasons Social Democrats exclude a coalition with Die Linke. Merkel has to govern with this potential majority in mind. Merkel's "win" presumably were mostly votes that used to go to her coalition partner, the FDP.

Posted by: somebody | Sep 23 2013 7:45 utc | 97

@93, America's boy, is perhaps too strong, but Obama called Kenyatta recently to "express his support". Something he never did for those Brutal Tyrants ™ Gadaffi and Assad. It seems the symbiosis between the US Dept of State and jihad varies from hands off to full support.

Posted by: ruralito | Sep 23 2013 17:00 utc | 98

Woolwich murderer? I don't get it he killed a soldier during war. If england doesn't like having their soldiers killed in their country they shouldn't be sending troops into other people's countries to kill that nations soldiers.

As for the seeming conflict over which side to support in Kenya, it is obvious if you stop considering the world dualisticly ie one thing good so the other must be bad.

The ragtag armies in Syria are working for assholes no doubt about it but that doesn't make the fighters in em all bad.
They loathe western imperialism and although the motivation to fight it has been perverted in Syria by a globalist elite posing as Arab nationalists, that doesn't make it so everywhere, especially not in Africa where fukasi have been laying waste to ancient cultures in their endless pursuit of new targets for resource theft.

Later on if North Africans wrest control from fukasi, it may be time to consider their motives as political leaders are corruptible no doubt about it, but Muammar Ghaddaffi provided no-strings assistance to sub-sahara Africa for decades, right up until fukus had no place else to expand than africa so decided he had to go so they could 'develop new markets'. Many of the people resisting fukasi in Africa now are remnants of the Colonel's support.

It's a Westgate Mall they've attacked for fuck's sake. That is about as offensive an edifice in Kenya for Africans as a world trade center in manhattan was for humans all over the planet. A huge shopping mall in Africa, put there for the whitefella 'expats' (as they call themselves) to pretend like they're back 'ome in huddersfield or where-ever, as R'Giap used to say "Its like shitting on the carpet". What is the matter with the ancient markets & bazaars?
Well no - we do know the answer to that, you can't buy stock on the bazaar franchiser on the NYSE, that's why the mall is there, to make sure none of the wages these witless agents of empire get paid, can possibly 'trickle down' to the Kenyans who have been made refugees in their own country by this corporate expansion. All the money gets 'repatriated' back to new york always.

The fact that some investors are israeli probably wouldn't have figured too much in Shebab's motivation but it would have helped give the fighters extra motivation.
The west plays it up because they always like to try to make the other side out to be the nazis that they are. It is amerika that runs a militaristic secret police state, which just like the nazis refuses to recognise sovereignty and claims innate superiority. For me there is no difference between nazi's claims of aryan superiority & amerika's claim to exceptionalism.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Sep 23 2013 21:40 utc | 99

have u heard yet ?
coz of the *terrarists attack* in kenya, *the administraton* might be forced to escalate the wot in ...somali !
the reluctant world cop *dragged into* yet another conflict , hehehe.

Posted by: denk | Sep 24 2013 4:28 utc | 100

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