Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 18, 2013

Who Dictates U.S. Policies On Egypt?

Who is really setting U.S. policies on Egypt?

The NYT has the answer: How American Hopes for a Deal in Egypt Were Undercut

The Israelis, whose military had close ties to General Sisi from his former post as head of military intelligence, were supporting the takeover as well. Western diplomats say that General Sisi and his circle appeared to be in heavy communication with Israeli colleagues, and the diplomats believed the Israelis were also undercutting the Western message by reassuring the Egyptians not to worry about American threats to cut off aid.

Israeli officials deny having reassured Egypt about the aid, but acknowledge having lobbied Washington to protect it.

When Senator Rand Paul, Republican of Kentucky, proposed an amendment halting military aid to Egypt, the influential American Israel Public Affairs Committee sent a letter to senators on July 31 opposing it, saying it “could increase instability in Egypt and undermine important U.S. interests and negatively impact our Israeli ally.” Statements from influential lawmakers echoed the letter, and the Senate defeated the measure, 86 to 13, later that day.

Posted by b on August 18, 2013 at 8:18 UTC | Permalink

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That's what I said. I said the Israelis greenlighted the coup because the regarded the guerrilla militarisation of the Sinai by a mixture of MBs, salafis and AQ types as crossing the proverbial red line (sorry for the mixed metaphors). And I said the US was disconcerted by it. But I had no evidence, except for the fact that Ambassador Anne Patterson was obviously not reading from the same script as General Sisi was.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Aug 18 2013 8:25 utc | 1

Le Monde also addresses this story (with Baradei as middleman) in the last part of this article

(Answer to Alexno, earlier thread on Upper Egypt: Upper Egypt has a strong Sufi tradition. Their gatherings and shrines have been attacked repeatedly, for example in Cairo Sayyida Zainab right after the MB win elections. They will not forget that. Neither will the Jama'a al Islamiyya, ally of yesterday, forget they have been accused for the burning of churches... This strategy, just as barrickading in a mosque with cameras and journalists inside, is due to fail, because it is just a replica of the Syrian strategy, which was made possible only with the large use of fabricated videos and fakes witnesses on Al Jazeera/CNN. The Egyptian army knows exactly how to deal with the foreign press. They demonstrated it yesterday...)

Posted by: Mina | Aug 18 2013 8:48 utc | 2

Long overdue article, of course Israel dictates the policy on Egypt.
Some people still refuse to accept that and thus keep the conflict alive. Pity.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 18 2013 8:57 utc | 3

Yep, the interesting point is that the New York Times explicitly mentions this and states that the US would have preferred a different outcome.

A message to the Muslim Brotherhood who did not see this coming?

Posted by: somebody | Aug 18 2013 9:02 utc | 4

With KSA, Jordan and Kuwait loudly expressing their support for the Egyptian army (and Kuwait has announced yesterday it will pay for the repair of all churches), I doubt the US will say anything against such wealthy and strategically located friends.

Not only the MB did not see it coming but the security apparatus (police, intelligence etc) in Upper Egypt and elsewhere has remained just as it was before the revolution. One cannot understand such stupidity except when realizing that these people are MESSIANISTS. God in on their side because they strongly believe that they are better Muslims than their neighbours. Full point.

Posted by: Mina | Aug 18 2013 9:28 utc | 5

Summary of yesterday's press conference

(It is not in the MSM because the Empire does not like it when a country uses the term "facism". It should be only for the Empire to decide what is facism and what is not...)

Posted by: Mina | Aug 18 2013 9:41 utc | 6

This here is the conservative WSJ scenario - more emphasis on the incompetence of the Obama administration, diferent Israeli concerns - here they counsel against destabilisation

The conventional wisdom—shared by both the U.S. and its allies in Israel—has long been that Egypt has a relatively cohesive society, free of the stark sectarian divisions that have fueled so much unrest in countries such as Syria, Lebanon and Iraq. While the U.S. intelligence community saw trouble brewing in Egypt for months, analysts now are contemplating the once-unthinkable prospect of a long-term period of violence between secular and Islamist groups.


Among U.S. officials, the fear is that Egypt could head in a darker direction. U.S. officials and regional diplomats say the nightmare scenario would be a civil war in Egypt that creates a crescent-shaped arc of instability from Syria and Lebanon to Iraq, Egypt and Libya. Israeli officials have told their American counterparts that, if Egypt succumbs to violence, an already fragile Jordan could be next, jeopardizing the Jewish state's last stable border and its buffer zone with Iran.

So what is it - Israel in favor of a crack down on the Muslim Brotherhood or in favor of reconciliation. Basically, no good options ...

Posted by: somebody | Aug 18 2013 10:04 utc | 7

More details on the mediations here

Posted by: Mina | Aug 18 2013 10:05 utc | 8

Neo-Ottoman Caliph Erdogan encouters a Saudi elephant in the Suez corridor
He uses the Coranic story of Pharaoh and Moses just as Qardawi used it to send the greenlight to the MB to take to the streets, after they had initially refused to participate to the demos during the revolution that ousted Mubarak. They really lack imagination.

Posted by: Mina | Aug 18 2013 10:10 utc | 9

Yesterday during the Press Conference, Hijazi has addressed the issue of this so-called negociations that would have been rejected by the EG governement. He says that only the MB have refused any negociations all along, and that the UAE, who have been a partner in the negociation, has had an official statement about this after seeing that a press agency has given this fake report about the mediation that would have been failed. I did not grasp all the details but I cannot find a full transcript of yesterday's press conference (it is probably available on Youtube, I'll have a look later). It is not available here

Tamarrod wants to launch a petition against US aid

Posted by: Mina | Aug 18 2013 10:18 utc | 10

A throve of interesting links and documents about Qatar here

Looks like the US is having an Old money/Bush/KSA vs Obama/Nouveaux riches fight?

Posted by: Mina | Aug 18 2013 10:38 utc | 11

The secterian killer Sissi now even kill his own family!

US must be so proud that their weapons are being used by this complete Sissi maniac.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 18 2013 10:46 utc | 12

Tariq Ramadan talks sense

Le penseur et théologien Tariq Ramadan a appelé dimanche la confrérie des Frères Musulmans à cesser de manifester dans les rues pour préserver l’Egypte de la division et du spectre de la guerre civile. « Je pense qu’ils doivent cesser les manifestations, cesser la politique du pire, même en étant dans la non-violence. De toute façon, ils ne vont pas avoir le choix. Les militaires sont en train de les isoler du peuple. Ils sont dans une impasse aujourd’hui », a-t-il dit dans une interview accordée au quotidien français Le Parisien.

Brief translation: The Muslim Brotherhood has to stop all demonstrations to preserve Egypt's unity. They have no choice as the army is succeeding in isolating them from the people.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 18 2013 11:30 utc | 13

Timeline here

Good to remember how many people where on the streets on June 30th (and interview of Walid Phares)

Posted by: Mina | Aug 18 2013 11:39 utc | 14

US must be so proud that their weapons are being used by this complete Sissi maniac.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 18, 2013 6:46:09 AM | 12

the only maniac is u: your reports title makes it seem Sisi killed the man with his bare hands

But the body makes is clear he died in the fracas....but by whom? te storuy does not provide evidenced as to who killed merely makes an unsubstantiated claim....not good journalism.

Now a maniac WOULD seek to sow more discord by making extravagant claims....just as the media claims evil Assad kills muslims in syria

congrats YOU and middlesastmonitor are feeding the jihadis and ensuring more flow into egypt

Posted by: brian | Aug 18 2013 11:49 utc | 15

As many as 22 Al Jazeera employees have quit since the overthrow of Mohammad Mursi, amid concern over the channel’s alleged bias towards the Muslim Brotherhood and its coverage of Egypt.
Criticism over the channel’s editorial line, the way it covered events in Egypt, and allegations that journalists were instructed to favor the Brotherhood are said to be the main reasons behind the mass resignations.

Posted by: brian | Aug 18 2013 11:50 utc | 16

Planted Reports on Al-Jazeera Perpetuated Worldwide. The Ministry has rejected claims and news reports which have been circulated by al-Jazeera and other Muslim Brotherhood associated TV channels, according to which the military should have used live ammunition against protesters in the Rabaa al-Adwiya and al-Nahda Squares. The reports by al-Jazeera and others have led to the false reports being perpetuated throughout other media, such as RT as well as most Western mainstream media.

nsnbc international has spoken with several eyewitnesses who were at the scene of the events who reported, that snipers were firing into the peaceful protesters, stirring up violence. The eyewitnesses stressed, that unless journalists were aware of where the armed radicals were shooting from, and where snipers were located, it was understandable that journalists at the scene would get the impression that the protesters were being targeted by the police and military. One eyewitness added “After all, most of the protesters who were leaving also thought that the police was firing on them”.

Moreover, eyewitnesses reported to nsnbc international, that the armed radicals at the two squares, who were barricaded behind the fortifications of sand-filled sacks, opened fire at the police, killing many of the peaceful protesters who were caught-up in the line of fire.

Posted by: brian | Aug 18 2013 11:50 utc | 17

As expected, and as the mainstream media was raving about the horrifyingly bloody crackdown on the peaceful Muslim Brotherhood ‘sit-ins in Cairo on Wednesday morning August 14, most Egyptians (the decent patriots with a functioning and sane mind still) were heaving a sigh of relief.

The two sit-ins, or to be honest, the terrorist bases in Rabaa and Nahda squares, were not peaceful at all; unless you believe Moltov cocktails, automatic guns, grenades, and RPJs are legitimate tools in protests and occupy movements with a good cause. (Watch video of the confiscated firearms after raiding the sit-ins)

Posted by: brian | Aug 18 2013 11:51 utc | 18

Brave egytpians plan more protest coming weeks.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 18 2013 11:51 utc | 19

Morsi came to power in a democratic election, but misinterpreted the meaning of democracy. He and his Muslim Brotherhood backers – primarily Qatar – appeared to believe that having won the election, they could run the country according to their decree, not according to democratic principles as the majority had expected. A series of draconian laws, a spiralling economic crisis, and a feeling on the Egyptian street that the Muslim Brotherhood was paid handsomely by foreign forces, spurred street protests of historic proportions, prompting the military to intervene.
With Morsi gone, Qatar suddenly became “persona non grata” in Egypt.
Qatar sought to extend its influence and Muslim Brotherhood-inspired view of how countries like Egypt, Syria, Libya, and others should be. Qatar was also playing a power-game against Saudi Arabia, another hugely wealthy regional power whose vision of an even more strictly Islamist way of life for Muslims drove a wedge between the two parties.

NOTE: Qartar = Aljazeera

Posted by: brian | Aug 18 2013 11:52 utc | 20

Orlov reminds us that Qatar was a major financier of the Islamist rebellion in Chechnya in the 1990s, and that after the Islamists had been routed by the Russian army, the [now former] Qatari emir gave sanctuary to one of the most wanted leaders of the Islamist rebellion, Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev, a figure who has inspired Chechen Islamists ever since. Yandarbiyev was subsequently assassinated by a car bomb in the Qatari capital Doha in 2004.
Qatar long ago signed up to the Muslim Brotherhood cause. It believed that this alliance would promote Qatar to being the foremost player in Sunni Muslim affairs at the expense of its main rival, Saudi Arabia. Recent events suggest that gamble may have blown up in its face.

and as we know from above saudi state media: Alarabiya, is attacking qatar state media Aljazeera: its fun to see the two dictatorships at loggerheads: both backing various islamic terrorisms

Posted by: brian | Aug 18 2013 11:55 utc | 21

Lee Jay Walker from Modern Tokyo Times states that “Ironically, it could be argued that the security forces had underplayed the real threat to themselves and wider society on the whole. It is known that at least 43 security officers were killed by demonstrators and that hundreds were injured. Indeed, police stations in other part of Egypt were vulnerable to the coordinated attacks by militants within the Muslim Brotherhood. This reality highlights that the security forces believed that they had a limited objective related to two protest camps. However, for militants within the Muslim Brotherhood and other Islamist sectarian groups, their plans were to set Egypt ablaze and target the minority Coptic Christian community.”
The above is extremely valid and the same applies to the Sinai region whereby Islamist terrorist groups are attacking the Egyptian armed forces on a daily basis. It is no coincidence that Islamist terrorism grew in the Sinai region under the Morsi government. Similarly, it is no coincidence that since the demise of Morsi that coordinated terrorist attacks have taken place in the Sinai region and the same applies to attacking Christians in this part of Egypt. Therefore, just like Al-Qaeda affiliates in Syria work within the space provided to them by NATO Turkey; then clearly outside forces are involved in the growing terrorist network in the Sinai region

unlike syria, egypt will be easier to create interreligious strife

strange to see commentators here support the Muslim Brotherhood and say its peaceful: the AJ line

Posted by: brian | Aug 18 2013 11:58 utc | 22


'In the New York Times it was stated by Roger Cohen that “Perhaps the most radical change in U.S. foreign policy under President Obama has occurred here in Egypt, where the Muslim Brotherhood, long shunned as a collection of dangerous Islamist extremists, is now the de facto object of American support….. Not only that: Ultraconservative Salafist politicians, who make the Brotherhood seem like moderate pragmatists, are now regular visitors to the U.S. Embassy and, on the theory that it is better to have them inside the tent than out, they are able to visit the United States to learn how things work in the land of Jeffersonian democracy.”'

et al

so why assume:'Muslim Brotherhood, long shunned as a collection of dangerous Islamist extremists' are 'peaceful'?

Posted by: brian | Aug 18 2013 11:59 utc | 23


'Prior to the ousting of Morsi the Investigative Project on Terrorism reports that James Zogby, founder and president of the Arab-American Institute, states that “Our credibility has been compromised,” Zogby said. “I think the way we handled the constitutional issue itself was abominable.” U.S. officials made clear what a constitution should include, yet did not follow through when the document failed to protect women and minorities.”
“I can’t believe that we did nothing with regard to the communities in Egypt that were going to be affected by that constitution and express that we were displeased by the direction.”
“The Brotherhood’s rejection of equal status for women and the Copts, as well as its repression of opposition, have damaged its image, Zogby said.”

so MB, says Zogby, rejects equal status for women and copts

Posted by: brian | Aug 18 2013 12:01 utc | 24

Team to invistage the Sissi killers thugs for 'crimes against humanity'?

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 18 2013 12:08 utc | 25

Ahram Online reports that “Churches across Egypt came under frenzied attack Thursday as the country became convulsed in violent turmoil after security forces forcibly broke up two major Cairo protest camps held by supporters of deposed Islamist president Mohamed Morsi.”
“Incensed by the bloody crackdown that has claimed more than 500 lives, Morsi loyalists orchestrated nationwide assaults on Christian targets, wreaking havoc on churches, homes, and Christian-owned businesses throughout the country.”
Lee Jay Walker comments that “It must be stated that attacks against Christian churches and property began within 5 minutes of security forces launching an assault against two protest camps. This reality shows that the attacks against police stations, the Christian community and state buildings were well coordinated. Indeed, in recent weeks militant Islamists incited by zealots within the Muslim Brotherhood – irrespective if also belonging to other Islamist groups – have killed a young Coptic girl, beheaded a Christian and killed a Christian priest. Likewise, untold terrorist attacks have targeted the armed forces of Egypt which are on the frontline in preserving the nation state of Egypt. Indeed, Islamists care little if they destroy the fabric of society and the economy because look at what Islamist forces have done to Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and are now doing in Syria, with the tacit support of Gulf and Western nations.”

Posted by: brian | Aug 18 2013 12:10 utc | 26

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 18, 2013 8:08:44 AM | 25

lets hope they also invesigate the MB

'MB is the big umbrella that ideologically nurtured all of the current Islamist terrorist groups. All of the militant groups, like Islamic Jihad and al Qaeda have been feeding on the ideology and theories of the notorious Sayed Kotb, one of the leading theorists in the bloody history of MB during the 1950-1960s.

Kotb, for those who are not familiar with the name or his books, is the mentor of Ayman el Zawahri, the current al-Qaeda leader and he is also the spiritual guru for most of the Islamist militants from Afghanistan all the way to Morroco:

Once again, MB is not a political party, as mistakenly defined, it is an international underground group, based in Egypt, with militant theology that endorses resorting to violence and assassination, aka armed Jihad, to overturn governments and replace it with a caliphate-era model.'

Posted by: brian | Aug 18 2013 12:14 utc | 27

bad luck

On 17 August 2013, the Egyptian authorities arrested Mohammed al-Zawahiri, the brother of al-Qaida's chief Ayman al-Zawahri.

Mohammed al-Zawahiri, leader of the Jihadi Salafist group, was detained at a checkpoint in Giza, across the Nile from Cairo.

Mohammed al-Zawahiri's group is allied with Mohammed Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood.

The authorities say that that Mohammed al-Zawahiri has commanded terrorists in the Sinai Peninsula.

Posted by: brian | Aug 18 2013 12:18 utc | 28

Brian, this comment that you posted above:

Planted Reports on Al-Jazeera Perpetuated Worldwide. Posted by: brian | Aug 18, 2013 7:50:46 AM | 17

You already posted the self-same totally identical comment yesterday:
Planted Reports on Al-Jazeera Perpetuated Worldwide. Posted by: brian | Aug 17, 2013 10:27:07 PM | 78

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Aug 18 2013 12:20 utc | 29

Human rights lawyers will use the principle of universal jurisdiction to prosecute perpetrators of international crimes

There wont be any problem making a case against the Sissi and his thugs since they published their crimes to the whole world through the media, world wont forget and nor will a great deal of egyptians that probably want to see this man meeting the same face as Mussolini.
Hanged from a lamp post.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 18 2013 12:24 utc | 30

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 18, 2013 8:24:59 AM | 30

western justice for africans? we saw how that worked with Libya and Gadaffi, right mr anonymouse?

my question is why are persons(and anonymice) supporting the Muslim Brother hood: its like supporting alqaeda: and does ally you with Qatar.

Posted by: brian | Aug 18 2013 12:29 utc | 31

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 18, 2013 8:24:59 AM | 30

lets run that by mr anonymouse again: hes not very bright:

Egypt is currently in deep crisis because militants within the Muslim Brotherhood and various Islamist groups were well prepared to attack police officers, Christians, security forces, and others that they deem to be a threat to their violent tendencies. It is clear that the events of the last 24 hours, just like the increase of terrorist attacks against the Egyptian army since President Morsi was forced from office, was well coordinated. Alongside this, many Western media outlets desire to twist the reality on the ground by not providing the full picture. This in itself highlights that the Obama administration is unhappy about the Muslim Brotherhood being forced out of office. After all, the Obama administration favors the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, Syria and Tunisia (Ennahda is an offshoot).
While the obvious attention is on the Egyptian security forces storming two protest camps in Cairo this angle is misleading. After all, images clearly show that pro-Muslim Brotherhood supporters and religious zealots from other militant Islamist groups were preparing for violence. Not only this, many videos show militants attacking the security forces with guns and currently it is known the 43 members were killed by pro-Morsi supporters. Therefore, a much better picture of the crisis is how militants within the Muslim Brotherhood behave towards communities which had nothing to do with the protest camps in Cairo.
Ahram Online provides a snippet of what happened on the ground within the last 24 hours. It is noticeable that within 5 minutes of the police attacking pro-Morsi camps in Greater Cairo, that Christian churches were attacked by zealots which support the Muslim Brotherhood cause. This applies to a Coptic Orthodox Church in Sohag and another Christian church in the governorate of Minya being attacked. Of course, the embattled Christians of Egypt had nothing to do with the sit-ins in Greater Cairo. However, for militants within the Muslim Brotherhood this is immaterial because in their eyes the Coptics are deemed inferior for being Christian.
In other words, if pro-Muslim Brotherhood militants and other Islamist groups can use violence so openly against a minority group not involved in the pro-Morsi camp issue; then clearly the same supporters are bound to use violence against the state apparatus. It is known that a Franciscan school was attacked; the Al-Raey Al-Saleh Church had Molotov cocktails thrown at it; a Christian youth center was set ablaze in Fayoum in Upper Egypt; in Luxor shops owned by Christians were attacked; the Mar Girgis Christian church suffered damage in Al-Arish; in Minya several Christian churches were damaged; and many other reports stress that churches, monasteries and Christian owned shops were set ablaze. This reality highlights the violent nature of militants within the Muslim Brotherhood and various Islamist militant groups in Egypt.
The Investigative Project on Terrorism reports that “No sooner did security forces, backed by armored cars and bulldozers, clear encampments in the city’s Nadha and Raba’a al Adiwiya squares did the Islamists turn to targeting Christian churches. Approximately 1,000 Muslim Brotherhood supporters set fire to the Churches of Abraham and the Virgin Mary in Menya.”

Posted by: brian | Aug 18 2013 12:30 utc | 32

so once more, why are you guys supporting islamic terrorists who arfe attackking christians in egypt and will attack shia , given the chance.,,,just like in syria

Posted by: brian | Aug 18 2013 12:32 utc | 33

1. The Egyptian police are quite capable of peacefully dispersing demonstrators, so long as there are no mysterious provocateurs shooting at them.

In Egypt, on 14 August 2013, "state television announced that a second demonstration site at Nadha Square, near Cairo University, had been cleared with relative ease before midday...

"ONTV news showed firearms and rounds of ammunition allegedly seized in the raid.

"The demonstrators fled while some skirmished with anti-Morsi mobs.

"Witnesses said the police held back as the two sides shot at each other with pistols.

Posted by: brian | Aug 18 2013 12:33 utc | 34

how peaceful is the MB?

No sooner did security forces, backed by armored cars and bulldozers, clear encampments in the city's Nadha and Raba'a al Adiwiya squares did the Islamists turn to targeting Christian churches. Approximately 1,000 Muslim Brotherhood supporters set fire to the Churches of Abraham and the Virgin Mary in Menya.

Angry mobs also targeted churches, monasteries and other church properties in Alexandria, Suez and a number of other cities in Upper Egypt, according to Egypt's Al-Ahram.

Muslim Brotherhood members also firebombed Mar Geergiss Church, the main Coptic church in the southern Egyptian city of Sohag, burning it to the ground. Islamists had previously raised an al-Qaida flag over the church. St. Theresa Church in Assiut in Upper Egypt was also burned.

Egypt: Morsi Supporters Attack Coptic Churches / 14 August 2013

Posted by: brian | Aug 18 2013 12:35 utc | 35
Seems more than right:

These schemes, the political analyst added, are hatched by Saudi Arabia in collaboration with the US and Israel, with the aim of fueling “sectarian strife through mass killings… in order to undermine the central governments of those states [Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Lebanon, etc].”

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 18 2013 12:39 utc | 36

some history: for what its worth, here is wiki on MB

Links to the Nazis began during the 1930s and were close during the Second World War, involving agitation against the British, espionage and sabotage, as well as support for terrorist activities orchestrated by Haj Amin el-Hussaini in British Mandate Palestine, as a wide range of declassified documents from the British, American and Nazi German governmental archives, as well as from personal accounts and memoires from that period, confirm.[6] Reflecting this connection the Muslim Brotherhood also disseminated Hitler's Mein Kampf and The Protocols of the Elders of Zion widely in Arab translations, helping to deepen and extend already existing hostile views about Jews and Western societies generally.[7]
In November 1948 police seized an automobile containing the documents and plans of what is thought to be the Brotherhood's `secret apparatus` with names of its members. The seizure was preceded by an assortment of bombings and assassination attempts by the apparatus. Subsequently 32 of its leaders were arrested and its offices raided.[8] The next month the Egyptian Prime Minister, Mahmud Fahmi Nokrashi, ordered the dissolution of the Brotherhood.
On December 28, 1948 Egypt's prime minister was assassinated by Brotherhood member and veterinary student Abdel Meguid Ahmed Hassan, in what is thought to have been retaliation for the government crackdown. A month and half later Al-Banna himself was killed in Cairo by men believed to be government agents and/or supporters of the murdered premier. Al-Banna was succeeded as head of the Brotherhood by Hassan Isma'il al-Hudaybi, a former judge.
In 1952, members of the Muslim Brotherhood are accused of taking part in arson that destroyed some "750 buildings" in downtown Cairo — mainly night clubs, theatres, hotels, and restaurants frequented by British and other foreigners — "that marked the end of the liberal, progressive, cosmopolitan" Egypt.[9]
The Brotherhood supported the military coup that overthrew the monarchy in 1952, but the junta was unwilling to share power or lift martial law and clashed with the Brotherhood.[citation needed]

not a history of peace

Posted by: brian | Aug 18 2013 12:59 utc | 37

MB perceives egypt as a muslim country:

'In 1997 Muslim Brotherhood Supreme Guide Mustafa Mashhur told journalist Khalid Daoud[14] that he thought Egypt's Coptic Christians and Orthodox Jews should pay the long-abandoned jizya poll tax, levied on non-Muslims in exchange for protection from the state, rationalized by the fact that non-Muslims are exempt from military service while it is compulsory for Muslims. He went on to say, "we do not mind having Christians members in the People's Assembly...the top officials, especially in the army, should be Muslims since we are a Muslim country ... This is necessary because when a Christian country attacks the Muslim country and the army has Christian elements, they can facilitate our defeat by the enemy."[15] According to The Guardian newspaper, the proposal caused an "uproar" among Egypt's six million Coptic Christians and "the movement later backtracked."[16]'

'n 2000, 15 MB deputies were elected to the Egyptian parliament. A book detailing the record of the MB deputies in the 2000-2005 Egyptian parliament (The Brothers in the 2000-2005 Parliament) found its parliamentary leader Hamdy Hassan working vigorously to fight cultural expression the Brotherhood felt was unIslamic and blasphemous, from literature to beauty contests. Hassan accused the Minister of Culture (Farouk Hosny) of leading what Hassan called the `current US-led war against Islamic culture and identity`. Another Brotherhood MP (Gamal Heshmat) took credit for forcing culture minister Hosni to ban the publication of three novels on the ground they promoted blasphemy and unacceptable sexual practices.[17]'

not promising

Posted by: brian | Aug 18 2013 13:03 utc | 38

Dean A. Lemieux
'The Muslim Brotherhood has been in existence roughly since 1928. Like a well run, mafia syndicate they have been trying to influence people and governments back to a Shariah law state in all of the Middle East. They hide behind suits and ties, use the financing to support other terrorist groups such as Hamas and AQ, and in general are not accepted in much of the Islamic Ummah. They are a slick group of liars, that historically has been held in check by governmental leaders in Egypt (Nasser), Syria (Assad), and other countries who realized that their sweet appearance at the surface tastes more like bitter almonds if you enter into an agreement with these thugs. Plain and simple, they are a dangerous, corrupt, and manipulative group to Islam and will stop at nothing to push there sick and treacherous agenda across all of the Ummah with no regard to the peoples wants and needs. The MB have served no good in any country that they have been established in, other than to start problems and keep the Islamic nations that they reside in a constant state of hostility and violence. This is why they were banned in Egypt, Syria, Saudi, and many other countries etc. for the past 70+ years. I fully hope for the people of Egypt that your military and government are victorious in driving these dogs from your country, only then will the people have a true voice and peace!'

Posted by: brian | Aug 18 2013 13:09 utc | 39

The EU threats are making me hilarious. (Google has it under AFP banner "EU warns will 'urgently review' Egypt ties (AFP)" while as it under AP.
They thought they would get rid of domestic terrorism by following the Gulf practice: export them abroad. Now it does not know how to please its Islamist voters...

Here are voices from the ground, from the Tahrir youth that was once so glamour and who are now ignored by MSM. Neither can they find a team to go to visit an attacked monastery in Upper Egypt, or just take the metro to Imbaba church in Cairo after it has been burned.

Posted by: Mina | Aug 18 2013 13:43 utc | 40

They have already attacked Shias, right after Morsi participated to a big event to "support the rebels in Syria". The graphic videos are on Youtube. In the last 2 years, the Shia threat was often in the mouth of people who have never seen a Shiite, in Cairo and in Sinai.
(Ahram is down since yesterday, but you'll find it on Youtube under lynching Shia Cairo Giza)

Posted by: Mina | Aug 18 2013 13:47 utc | 41


Nothing is known of his dealings with either Vichy or the Italians, but in January 1941 Lubentschik met two Germans – Rudolf Rosen and Otto von Hentig, the philo-Zionist, who was then head of the Oriental Department of the German Foreign Office. After the war a copy of the Stern proposal for an alliance between his movement and the Third Reich was discovered in the files of the German Embassy in Turkey. The Ankara document called itself a Proposal of the National Military Organisation (Irgun Zvai Leumi) Concerning the Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe and the Participation of the NMO in the War on the side of Germany. (The Ankara document is dated 11 January 1941. At that point the Sternists still thought of themselves as the “real” Irgun, and it was only later that they adopted the Fighters for the Freedom of Israel – Lohamei Herut Yisrael – appellation.) In it the Stern group told the Nazis:

The evacuation of the Jewish masses from Europe is a precondition for solving the Jewish question; but this can only be made possible and complete through the settlement of these masses in the home of the Jewish people, Palestine, and through the establishment of a Jewish state in its historical boundaries ...

The NMO, which is well-acquainted with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its authorities towards Zionist activity inside Germany and towards Zionist emigration plans, is of the opinion that:

Common interests could exist between the establishment of a New Order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO.
Cooperation between the new Germany and a renewed volkish-national Hebrium would be possible and
The establishment of the historical Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, and bound by a treaty with the German Reich, would be in the interest of a maintained and strengthened future German position of power in the Near East.

Proceeding from these considerations, the NMO in Palestine, under the condition the above-mentioned national aspirations of the Israeli freedom movement are recognised on the side of the German Reich, offers to actively take part in the war on Germany’s side.

This offer by the NMO ... would be connected to the military training and organising of Jewish manpower in Europe, under the leadership and command of the NMO. These military units would take part in the fight to conquer Palestine, should such a front be decided upon.

The indirect participation of the Israeli freedom movement in the New Order in Europe, already in the preparatory stage, would be linked with a positive-radical solution of the European Jewish problem in conformity with the above-mentioned national aspirations of the Jewish people. This would extraordinarily strengthen the moral basis of the New Order in the eyes of all humanity.

The Sternists again emphasised: “The NMO is closely related to the totalitarian movements of Europe in its ideology and structure.” [7]

Posted by: g_h | Aug 18 2013 13:52 utc | 42



In the late summer of 1953, the Oval Office at the White House served as the stage for a little-noticed encounter between President Dwight D. Eisenhower and a young Middle Eastern firebrand. In the muted black-and-white photograph19 recording the event, the grandfatherly, balding Ike, then sixty-three, stands gray suited, erect, his elbows bent and his fists clenched as if to add muscle to some forceful point. To his left is a young, olive-skinned Egyptian in a dark suit, with a neatly trimmed, full beard and closely cropped hair, clutching a sheaf of papers behind his back. Staring intently at the president, he is just twenty-seven years old, but already has more than a decade of experience at the very heart of the Islamic world's violent and passionate politics. Alongside him, some dressed in Western attire and others wearing robes, shawls, and Muslim headgear, are members of a delegation of scholars, mullahs, and activists from India, Syria, Yemen, and North Africa.

The president's visitor that September day was Said Ramadan, a militant official and ideologue of the Muslim Brotherhood. The young man even had a claim to semi-royalty in Brotherhood circles, since he had married Wafa al-Banna, Hassan al-Banna's daughter, making him the son-in-law of the organization's founder. As he stood at the president's side, Ramadan appeared respectable and harmless. Yet the Brotherhood was known throughout the Middle East, since at least the late 1940s, as an organization of fanatics and terrorists. Its acolytes had murdered several Egyptian officials, including a prime minister, and just five years before Ramadan met Ike, the Muslim Brotherhood was declared illegal by the faltering regime of King Farouq of Egypt. But it didn't disappear. Over the next fifty years, the Muslim Brotherhood would stage repeated comebacks, slowly building its power and influence, spreading its ideology and building chapters in Jordan, Syria, Kuwait, and beyond. And until his death, in Switzerland, in 1995, Said Ramadan would be its chief international organizer.

Despite the fact that Ramadan was angry, violence prone, and openly intent on remaking the Middle East according to Islamic fundamentalist specifications, he wasn't regarded as a threat. In fact, based on a secret evaluation by the U.S. ambassador in Cairo, Ramadan was viewed as a potential ally. It was the very height of McCarthyism and the Cold War, and the Muslim Brotherhood was bitterly anti-communist. Not only that, but Ramadan's allies in the Muslim Brotherhood, Pakistan's Islamic Group,20 and similar organizations across the region were vigorously opposed to Marxists, leftwing activists on campuses, trade union organizers, Arab nationalists, "Arab socialists," the Baath Party, and secularists of all kinds. In the latter category were pesky upstarts like Egypt's president Gamal Abdel Nasser, whose loyalty to the American side in the Cold War was in doubt even in 1953, just a year after his Free Officers movement had ousted the corrupt and despised monarchy."

Robert Dreyfuss, "Devil's Game", pp. 72 f.

Posted by: g_h | Aug 18 2013 13:57 utc | 43

WTF? Me thinks all these postings by brian, are if fact, not brian.

Bottom line...This Egypt cluster-fuck is perfect for the desires and goals of the empire and it's minions. Don't you love it when a plan comes together? Destabilise and control. Anyone else see a pattern here?

Posted by: ben | Aug 18 2013 13:58 utc | 44

" why assume:'Muslim Brotherhood, long shunned as a collection of dangerous Islamist extremists' are 'peaceful'?"

Because the people who urged that they be shunned are propagandists for imperialism.
The Brotherhood, like the Labour Party in Britain contains some "extremists" (otherwise known as principled, radical and generally youthful members) but, as its government showed (as does its long history of compromise with an Egyptian state which is one of the great examples of the comprador puppet) it is rather a moderate, if sectarian, organisation.
So moderate, in fact, that its first act in power was to sacrifice its base and its basic principles in order to curry favour with the military and its sponsors. To the usurers of the IMF it offered up the poor, to the land pirates of Israel and the Empire it offered up, in true Abrahamic fashion, its Palestinian offspring, Hamas.

And now, to prove that life is unfair, Morsi is accused of conspiring with Hamas to seize Sinai. Nothing could be more ludicrous.

There is a rough kharmaic justice in the terrible descent into barbarism led by the wretched Sisi- the Suharto/Pinochet of Egypt: which is that Egypt is now destined to suffer as Palestine has, because it sold Palestine to Israel.

What we have seen in the last few days has been a re-staging of Mubarak and Suleiman's last gasp defence: the combined use of the secret service thugs, criminals and provocateurs, attacking peaceful protesters, and the uniformed army and police to "restore order" by killing off political opponents.
As to the fact that there is a segment of Egyptian society which supports the massacres, I do not doubt it. Such is the history of modern Egypt that there are always, as there are everywhere, willing collaborators with the powerful: there were Egyptians who met Bonaparte with gifts, their descendants attended Coronations in London.The Egyptian army fought the Mahdi at Omdurman and led Allenby's advance on Jerusalem.

The narrative that Brian advances has one fatal flaw: the "islamic terrorists" whom he identifies with the Brotherhood are in fact led by Prince Bandar who supports the Army. In fact the terror in Egypt is the army's terror against not just the Brotherhood but all who rose against Mubarak's Army backed dictatorship.
What we are seeing is a restoration, a reactionary terror carried out by men who have concluded that Mubarak was insufficiently violent, and are determined to maintain their power by brute force.
The death squads are already fanning out, the concentration camps are filling, the torturers are working overtime, the spies and provocateurs are multiplying like flies on a corpse.

As to the "54 dead policemen" has nobody been at a demonstration before? Where, for every half dead civilian, the police neatly report a "wounded officer" or three and speak darkly of attacks from the crowds by "anarchists" "terrorists" or whatever (it used to be Communists).
It is not unlikely that any dead policemen were either Brotherhood sympathisers or civilians uniformed post mortem. Just as the churches were very probably fired by Sisi's agents, frustrated by the Brotherhood's non-violent tactics.

Those who compare Sisi to Assad in Syria, both defending against "sunni extremists" misunderstand both situations.

In Syria the Saudis and NATO are backing "religious extremists"; in Egypt the Saudis and NATO are backing Sisi and the military. This ought not to be confusing: the imperialists are defending their interests and opposing those of the people. They are acting to defend their base in their Israeli colony and to support their agents, the Egyptian General Staff, who have decided to reclaim full power and put an end to ruling class (and zionist) fears that Morsi's government might lead, in future, to mass radicalisation.

Now the question is whether the Egyptian people who overthrew both Mubarak and Morsi can stomach Sisi. One thing they can be sure of is that the most offensive characteristics of both previous regimes- their callous exploitation of the masses and the concomitant sell out to imperialism- are unchanged.

For Syria this is very bad news, for now Israel has no need to concern itself about instability in Egypt, it can turn all its borrowed force on the resistance, while Hariri, the Phalangists and other deadly enemies of Palestine will greet Sisi as another like them, treacherous tools of imperialism.
On the other hand for the Gulf regimes, Saudi Arabia and Jordan the danger is that the scales have now been removed from the eyes of another layer of the Arab world: the Muslim Brotherhood's supporters can no longer doubt whose side the tyrants are on, and it is not theirs. In future they can rely only on the people whose interests Morsi comprehensively betrayed.

Posted by: bevin | Aug 18 2013 14:03 utc | 45

The single country that has an interest in smaller sectarian entities (a Shiite Southern Iraq, a Sunni Northern Syria, etc) is Israhell, who tried to sell the prehistoric idea of a "Jewish state" with special rights for Jews and not for the others, for years. The MB ideas are the exact equivalent, just repalace "Jews" by "Muslims".
The West has no interest in that: it need sunny resorts for its tired workers, and mixity everywhere to promote its own "culture" (see MrPragma comments a few threads ago). The hotels are all in the hands of wealthy Western and Gulf companies who want to see them full, i. e. non sex segregated!

It seems Sissi may offer a referendum for the people to decide if he stays or not. Just announced on Egyptian TV.

Posted by: Mina | Aug 18 2013 14:11 utc | 46

46) Muslim Brotherhood called off their marches. Couldn't they do a deal before getting people killed?

Posted by: somebody | Aug 18 2013 14:13 utc | 47

Posted by: bevin | Aug 18, 2013 10:03:05 AM | 45

Obama supports the Muslim Brotherhood:aka the religious extremists

Posted by: brian | Aug 18 2013 14:15 utc | 48

WTF? Me thinks all these postings by brian, are if fact, not brian.

Bottom line...This Egypt cluster-fuck is perfect for the desires and goals of the empire and it's minions. Don't you love it when a plan comes together? Destabilise and control. Anyone else see a pattern here?

Posted by: ben | Aug 18, 2013 9:58:14 AM | 44

well Ben(or is this NOT Ben!) the posts above are by me, and reflect a consistent position: theyd not if it were more than one Brian

Posted by: brian | Aug 18 2013 14:17 utc | 49

Morsi was never accused to conspire with Hamas to take Sinai. Even the army has a hard time with the tribes there, but Morsi and Hamas were seen as so stupid that they could easily make enough (intended?) security blurs to give an excuse to Israel to reinvade Sinai, as Lysander has confirmed some days ago.

Posted by: Mina | Aug 18 2013 14:21 utc | 50

On another issue, hypocritical UN seems to be unaware of the recent massacres and kidnappings in Deir al Zor

Posted by: Mina | Aug 18 2013 14:25 utc | 51

So tommorow EU will meet, anyone want to take a guess on what they will say?
EU will not go against US and Israel so no real sanctions, no condemnations of the Sissi-regime.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 18 2013 14:36 utc | 52

The Egyptian police are quite capable of peacefully dispersing demonstrators, so long as there are no mysterious provocateurs shooting at them.... "Witnesses said the police held back as the two sides shot at each other with pistols." (Aangirfan) Posted by: brian | Aug 18, 2013 8:33:30 AM | 34
is exactly the same as:
The Egyptian police are quite capable of peacefully dispersing demonstrators, so long as there are no mysterious provocateurs shooting at them.... "Witnesses said the police held back as the two sides shot at each other with pistols." (Aangirfan) Posted by: brian | Aug 16, 2013 5:14:15 AM | 180
If you keep repeating yourself like this (and this is the second time I have drawn attention to it), we shall all end up going round in circles.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Aug 18 2013 14:37 utc | 53


You are correct about the accusation that Mursi conspiring with Hamas. Yes ludicrious, apparently the Sissi-regime know how to generate support from Israel, Saudiarabia and US.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 18 2013 14:38 utc | 54

Found it - Saudi Arabia is hedging patrons

Beyond Assad

Although Saudi Arabia is seeking the fall of President Bashar al-Assad’s rule and an end to Iran’s influence in Syria, Riyadh is however open to Russian demands and do not consider the conflict as a zero-sum relationship with Moscow. On the contrary, there is common ground between the both countries, to maintain the survival of the state institutions, including the army and security services, as both do not wish to repeat the experience of Iraq.

Saudi Arabia does not want Islamic extremist groups or terrorist control of the situation, which is a key objective in common with Russia.

Stability in Egypt

King Abdullah came out strongly to support the new regime in Egypt. The Saudi King called on Arabs to stand together against “attempts to destabilize” Egypt. “The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, its people and government stood and stands by today with its brothers in Egypt against terrorism,” he said.

It is clear that Russia and Saudi Arabia prefer stability in Egypt, and both are betting on the Egyptian military prevailing in the current standoff, and are already acting on that assumption. Here, Riyadh believes that Russian’s political and economic (shipments of wheat) support is vital for the new regime in Cairo, as it will provide it with the flexibility to stand up to the Western pressure, especially the American one.

Turkey’s political agenda

Although Turkey has strong political and economic ties with Saudi Arabia and Russia, both countries have their doubts about Turkey’s real agenda in the region.

Saudi Arabia is not comfortable with Turkey championed the so-called political Islam, the Muslim Brotherhood in particular. While Moscow sees the Turkish behavior as directly threatening Russian interests in both the Middle East and Caucasus.

It is becoming a clear view to both countries that Ankara is working to promote the agenda of the Muslim Brotherhood, and perhaps the Ankara’s position towards the recent events in Egypt reinforce the fears of Turkey intentions.

Reasonable oil prices

It is in the interest of both countries, Russia and Saudi Arabia, that the prices of oil remain high to balance their budget. Saudi Arabia, the largest producer in the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, requires an average crude price of $98 a barrel this year to break even, up from $94 last year, the Arab Petroleum Investments Corp., Apicorp, said recently in a report.

Russia will probably require an average Brent oil price of $117.8 a barrel this year to balance its budget, according to Deutsche Bank AG.

Iran’s nuclear program is yet another issue. Exactly like Saudi Arabia, Russia does not want to see Iran become a nuclear power. Yet Moscow and Riyadh want to keep their options open as a hedge policy towards Iran.

There are many possibilities for dealing with Iran’s nuclear program; one of them a political deal between the West and Iran that could jeopardize both countries interests.

Russia and Saudi Arabia share a common set of interests based on common threats such as terrorism and extremism.

King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia’s donation of $100 million for supporting the international counter-terrorism center is an important indicator that Saudi Arabia views with great concern the growing influence of terrorist groups.

Saudi Arabia itself has suffered a series of terrorist attacks, and here Riyadh fears that with the deteriorating situation in Yemen, and even in Syria and Egypt, al-Qaeda would be able to exploit the situation to carry out terrorist operations against the countries of the region. Those Saudi concerns have great resonance in Moscow because the Russian state itself is threatened by terrorist attacks from al-Qaeda.

New Afghanistan

Next year, it is expected the withdrawal of NATO forces from Afghanistan. Riyadh here want to achieve a number of goals, Afghanistan does not become a safe haven for al-Qaeda, weaken the organizations that are trying to attack the neighboring countries such as India, China and even Russia, as the kingdom has growing strategic interests with both China and India.

To achieve these goals, Riyadh is interested in supporting stability in Pakistan. Those Saudi goals are consistent with the Russian policy towards Afghanistan.

There are also other strategic issues which could push Moscow and Riyadh closer. Irina Zvyagelskaya, a senior fellow at the Institute of Oriental Studies of the Russian Academy of Sciences summaries Russia’s interests in the Middle East as “the prevention of instability that might come close to the Russian borders, protection of Russian business interests, and in terms of its military-industrial complex, supply of arms to countries in the region.”

Dropping population

While Russia’s overall population is dropping, the number of Muslims in the country is on the rise. Russia’s population has declined from 148 million in 1990 to 142.5 million in 2010, and is expected to fall to 137 million by 2020.

In contrast, the population of indigenous Muslims, mainly hailing from the Russian Caucasus, in Russia has risen since the fall of the Soviet Union. Their number has risen from 13.6 million in 1990 to 16.7 million in 2010 and it is expected to hit about 19 million or about 14% of Russia’s total population by 2020, according to official Russian data.

Thus, the accelerated process of Islamization in the region that threatens to spill over towards the borders of Russian interests and toward the territory of Russia. In order to achieve those goals, it makes sense that Moscow seeks to boost relations with Riyadh and the countries of the region.

Of course, the above points do not mean in any way that there is a coming alliance between Riyadh and Moscow, but it is certain that the two sides no longer trust American intentions in the region. Consequently, both countries are hedging towards any political developments that may threaten their strategic interests.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 18 2013 14:40 utc | 55

For what it is worth (possibly nothing) the Tamarod is calling for a referendum on the peace treaty with Israel:

Posted by: guest77 | Aug 18 2013 14:52 utc | 56

56) Tamarod is sponsored by Saudi Arabia :-))

from June 28

JEDDAH — Hundreds of thousands of Egyptians residing in Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) countries have been enrolling in the Tamarod campaign against President Mohamed Morsi. The campaign coordinators have called for massive protests against Morsi on June 30.

Mohammed Mughazi, an Egyptian and a volunteer for Tamarod campaign in the Kingdom, said efforts are continuing to gather signatures of hundreds of Egyptians ahead of the June 30 protest.

Around 15 million people, he said, have joined the campaign. Mohamed Mughazi, a volunteer and Tamarod coordinator in Saudi Arabia, said that many Egyptians in Saudi Arabia wish to do anything to show their support for Tamarod the campaign.

He said there won’t be any protests here because “we respect the rules of Saudi Arabia. We will somehow find a way to show our moral support from Tamarod like wearing same color T-shirts on June 30.

Tamarod campaign started in Egypt with only nine persons, he said. “And now after two months Tamarod volunteers in Egypt have touched the 5,000-mark,” he said.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 18 2013 15:11 utc | 57


What a completely crazy article. I haven't read anything in a while that turned reality quite so much on its head.

"The media highlighted the generous Saudi offer to stop Russia’s support for the regime of Bashar al-Assad." Generous offer?

The House of Saud, most certainly one of the most dangerous actors on the world stage because of their country's wealth and their complete dictatorial control of it, don't have interests that align with Russia in any ways that I can see. Most certainly not in any ways that would be worth alienating Iran. They might as well go to bed with a rattlesnake.

That article is Saudi propaganda, pure and simple.

Posted by: guest77 | Aug 18 2013 15:12 utc | 58


My point was that Israel would love to see a weakening and collapse of Egypt as a nation state. IIRC, I was responding to a comment by Somebody suggesting that Israel would not want a country beyond the government's control. (they would love that.)

In such circumstances, it would certainly reinvade Sinai. It will not attack a unified Egypt, whether under Morsi or a military dictatorship.

Posted by: Lysander | Aug 18 2013 15:18 utc | 59


In 58 I'm referring to 55, not to your posting at 57.

There is not doubt the Saudis are the big winners right now. Though it appears to have gone to their heads if they think they can have Russia sell out on a incredibly hard won position in Syria for the sale of a few tanks.

Posted by: guest77 | Aug 18 2013 15:22 utc | 60

Haha... sign a petition abroad when you're not allowed to sign one in the country where you reside and pay taxes.

Tamarod says "Go Hell to US Aid"

About KSA, there are more than 4,000 princes and a number of currents striving for power. Now that the old guard is creepy and decay, the game is open.

Posted by: Mina | Aug 18 2013 15:39 utc | 61

Here it is (about Morsi and the US selling Sinai to the US)
It is simply oe of the thousands rumours you can hear in Egypt these days. You really believe that we are still at the time when France could sell Texas?
It is in the comments section of this article, an Egyptian reader asking about this after he heard it in Egypt.
shaalan 18/08/2013 - 14h14

En Egypte de nombreuses voix évoquent un accord sur le point d'être scellé entre le Hamas (une aile des frères musulmans ne l'oublions pas), Morsi et les États Unis où une partie du Sinaï devait être vendue au Hamas en échange de la reconnaissance par le peuple palestinien de la reconnaissance d 'Israël. Il semblerait que l'armée soit sur le point de publier des documents prouvant ces discussions. Des journalistes du Monde peuvent ils nous en dire plus?

Posted by: Mina | Aug 18 2013 15:48 utc | 62

58) don't freak out there is this unnamed Saudi official quote

It is a mistake to think that our people will not do what is necessary to survive, and if that means we move to the right of bin Laden, so be it; to the left of Qaddafi, so be it; or fly to Baghdad and embrace Saddam like a brother, so be it. It's damned lonely in our part of the world, and we can no longer defend our relationship to our people.

So they will talk to Bashar Assad again and be nice to Iran if they feel it is necessary.

By the way above quote is from a Foreign Policy article in 2011 ending with this advice

the United States would be wise to do its best not to leave Saudi Arabia, or Prince Bandar, feeling lonely. Putting the princes's 2002 proposition to the test is a risk that no one should be eager to run.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 18 2013 15:53 utc | 63

So if Sissi is a puppet of the empire, Erdogan is what, a hero?

Posted by: Mina | Aug 18 2013 16:12 utc | 64

What if KSA and Egypt had decided that a NATO occupation of Syria was not in their interest? The victory of Ruhani may have been a game-changer and it is in everybody's interest to drop the lunatic Netanyahu.

Posted by: Mina | Aug 18 2013 16:16 utc | 65

65) Well, the British ambassador to Lebanon philosophized publicly on the redrawing of Sykes-Picot "this time done by Arabs themselves" ... Saudi Arabia used to be a British Protectorate. They would have to be deaf not to take note.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 18 2013 16:32 utc | 66

Bevin's lengthy post @45 is so sententious it sounds like a carefully written sermon. I can't understand why bevin, who is obviously fully equipped with leftist if not actually marxist concepts and terminology, is so enamoured of the MB, which is historically a right-wing anti-constitutional organisation even when it is not in one of its phases of active terrorism. Either bevin is the product of some strange hybrid marxo-mystic ideology which I have been fortunate enough to avoid, or he is doing this as a means to an end, ie insincerely, calculatingly, as professional political rhetoricians are skilled enough to do.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Aug 18 2013 16:59 utc | 67

NYtimes reports how Israel were the ones assuring the Sissi-killer crew, that the US aid will be upheld no matter what.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 18 2013 17:24 utc | 68


Sauce for the goose?

Obama came to power in a democratic election, but misinterpreted the meaning of democracy. He and his Investment Banking and Military Contract backers – primarily International – appeared to believe that having won the election, they could run the country according to their decree, not according to democratic principles as the majority had expected. A series of draconian laws, a spiralling economic crisis, and a feeling on the US street that the Executive Branch was paid handsomely by foreign forces, spurred "Occupy" street protests of historic proportions, prompting the military and combined federal agencies, to intervene.

Posted by: Jeremiah | Aug 18 2013 18:18 utc | 69


If you are not Hasbara, you are one of their 'useful idiots'. I don't defend or endorse MB - but I reserve my curses for the blacksmith, not the tool.

Once again, MB is not a political party, as mistakenly defined, it is an international underground group, based in Egypt, with militant theology that endorses resorting to violence and assassination, aka armed Jihad, to overturn governments and replace it with a caliphate-era model.'
Likely created / sponsored by covert funding and resources supplied by Israel, as an apparatus inherited from "Western" intelligence agencies as a cold-war legacy. The Muslim Brotherhood is now an Israeli asset in the ongoing campaign, subverting credible regional challenges to power and manipulating broader geopolitical objectives.

A mere year ago, before arming Jihadis in Libya, Syria and Mali, such claims could have easily been dispatched from the realm of serious consideration, with the imputation of "conspiracy theory"... But this has always been the operating procedure - from Georgi "Sidney Reilly" Rosenblum's time - through the use of Afhgan and Chechen proxies, to Kosovar Albanians.

There is enough disinformation and outside entanglement in any of these movements and factions, that not seeing "conspiracy" is an act of strenuous and active disbelief.

Posted by: Jeremiah | Aug 18 2013 19:20 utc | 70


To say someone "is so enamoured of MB"...what does that mean in this context? You sound like a fortunate son with all that cultured pretension in your language. You are aware that all that priggishness stands out like a sore thumb, aren't you? But no, no, you are utterly unaware. Carry on as you were.

Oh yes, I see dear fellow..."it's the worst case of hybrid marxo-mystic calculatingly, as professional political rhetoricians are skilled enough to do" that we've ever seen around here.

Posted by: Copeland | Aug 18 2013 19:36 utc | 71

"The Brotherhood, who were rightly vilified by many liberal and secular Egyptians, for Mr Morsi’s mix of blundering and authoritarianism, is slowly being rehabilitated through martyrdom."

Posted by: guest77 | Aug 18 2013 20:39 utc | 73

@71, Copeland: yes, I'm completely unaware. I haven't the faintest idea what you're trying to get at.

@70: I haven't seen any evidence that "the Muslim Brotherhood is now an Israeli asset." As far as I know, the MB is and always has been the asset of whoever gave it money. First the British, then the US, and under the US (specifically CIA) regime it became as it were subcontracted out, at first to the Saudis. However, as always happens with these underground or semi-underground militant subcultures, it became unruly. It's a good idea to compare the militant anti-Communist Catholic-fascist organisations that the CIA and MI6 sponsored in eastern (and Western) Europe under the various Gladio-type programmes they developed at the end of WW2, which have been very well researched, so we know all about them. The people who run the networks, cells, local branches, whatever form the level of illegality may determine, are witting agents. That is, they know who it is they get their money and instructions from. The people beneath them, the footsoldiers, are useful idiots. They know only the ideology and the immediate tasks. They are, then, much more passionate than their leaders. They are unaware of the hidden geopolitics behind the organisation. Often they want to launch a revolution on the spot, unaware that the host country is not intended to be a target, but a secure rear base of operations. It may even be their host. The Saudi branch of the MB, like the other branches, was dependent on Saudi Mukhabarat money. And the Saudi Mukhabarat were managing the entire MB network to serve CIA goals, to destabilise certain countries at any given time, and not others. Certainly not to destabilise Saudi itself. So Saudi threw them out, and Qatar started funding them. Always difficult to manage, because each national branch had its own ideological problems, they became completely uncontrollable. The Qatari secret service was riding the MB tiger, and the tiger threw it off and went on the rampage.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Aug 18 2013 20:42 utc | 74

Now the army start their secterian killing again, 40 dead in prison incident.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 18 2013 20:46 utc | 75

Italian politician Grillo rightfully slam west for its silence on the massacres in Egypt.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 18 2013 20:49 utc | 76

Let them wait for the Barbarians and see all the little freedom that remain (apart from working and paying taxes) vanish

Posted by: Mina | Aug 18 2013 21:17 utc | 77

Egypt will have a "secular" state! "Madaniya" is the taboo word on which the MB won their elections by brainwashing low educated people in explaining them that "madaniya" means laicity means that girls can go out of the house at 16 and marry whoever they want.

Posted by: Mina | Aug 18 2013 21:27 utc | 78

Just for the record, this is an exemple of what religious freaks were busy doing instead of running the country. The best part came when the Azhari minister of awqaf started to rebuke the guy explaining him with long quotes that he was supposed to have made his prayers in the morning in order to be able to attend the whole afternoon session...

Posted by: Mina | Aug 18 2013 21:32 utc | 79

70, 71

+1. I also question these users motivation.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 18 2013 21:40 utc | 80

Gotta laugh at the gob-smacking hypocrisy from some of the Australians in here. They can still get cranked about Gough Whitlam's dismissal in 1975 in an almost exact set of circumstances as Morsi's and who normally tag anything that doesn't go with their usual mindless anti-Israel cliches as 'zionist propaganda', yet here is Brian regurgitating the zionist lobby's talking points on the Muslim brotherhood in order to 'prove' that it is OK to massacre citizens if they don't share your viewpoint.
Why cut n paste that shit Brian are you starting to feel on the wrong side of the 'argument' and needing to prop it up with anything. It would be hilarious if this just were the intellectual exercise many seem to be treating it as, but it ain't.
All I've seen in here so fat is that the decision that Egypt's impoverished population made to turn their back on leftists was correct, cause those lefties don't seem to give a shit about poor people unless they subscribe to exactly the same arcane dialectic as the particular 'leftie' is choosing to espouse this week.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Aug 18 2013 23:43 utc | 81

Yeah, I read that NYTimes article a few days ago and that passage leapt out at me.

But you undersell it, because it doesn't *just* represent a situation where Israel is determining US policy through the Lobby.

It's worse than that: that first paragraph is saying that the US had decided on a policy towards Egypt, an then Israel deliberately stepped in to torpedo it.

No wonder those diplomats let the diplomatic mask slip ever so slightly; it's one thing when an "ally" won't do as it's told, it's quite another thing when an "ally" starts acting as an "enemy".

Posted by: Johnboy | Aug 18 2013 23:48 utc | 82

They simply explain US Egypt policy according to the preferences of their audience - for the New York Times it is sorry, can't do democracy, human rights promotion because of Israel, for the Wall Street Journal it is, we need them for the Suez Canal, military access to the Mediterranean, transport routes, we really don't care about dictatorship.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 19 2013 0:21 utc | 83

amerikan policymakers are incapable of making a 'good call' for a number of reasons, but in the case of the current Egypt situation it is for largely the same reasons MoA posters are struggling to make a good call, namely we (humans) too often indulge our instinct to divide ideas/events/people into white or black, good or bad and, worse, when confronted with the foolishness of that stark position, we climb on the fence with a call of 'grey' (or is it gray? I can never remember).
Gray sorta means 'too hard to call' so anything goes.
As I have said ad nauseum, I have no love for much of the muslim brotherhood's stated goals, but that shouldn't mean that its ok to butcher the buggers then cover over the slaughter with lies & distortions.

Hell, social democrats have always annoyed me with their namby pamby 'work within the system' approach to any issue but that doesn't mean it was OK to toss alla the german social democrats in concentration camps as Herr A Hitler did in 1933.
Hitler assassinated the social democrats for exactly the same reason that Sisi is killing the MB's, they are a threat to the tyrant's monopoly on political power.

If you think about it that could have been Sisi's plan right since it became obvious that the mubarak regime was doomed.
The MB has always existed in the shadows cause old mubarak had em outlawed as well.
Sisi (with the aid of the usual whitefella advisors no doubt) put his mind to a resolution of the problem.
They couldn't just outlaw the MB, back in 2011, the MB was already banned & the army prolly had no idea what the real power structure looked like.
A rather similar problem to that faced by the apartheidists in 1990 South Africa, when it came with the ANC. ANC was also a banned group denigrated in apartheid sympathetic media as terrorist because they like the MB had reasoned that without any 'legitimate' route for political aspirations, revolutionary action was their only means to a realisation of their goals.

We know that after the ANC won election, they instituted worse neo-liberal corporate ass kissing than Egypt under Morsi did, yet I haven't seen anyone much come into MoA demanding the slaughter of all ANC members from the grass roots up. Funny that...

I fucking hate what the ANC have done but like most other reasonable humans I don't see killing all the ANC as a solution. Most want the people of South Africa to force change themselves. I really don't see turning the clock back to apartheid South Africa, so another organisation of indigenous revolutionaries can do a better job of freeing the people, as being a good option, yet in essence that is what those who applaud the army takeover of Egypt are supporting.

They are saying 'those Muslim Brotherhood blokes' aren't to be trusted, that they're islamist & 'just look at islamist states elsewhere' to judge them. Imagine if someone who considered him/her self a lefty had said "That ANC aren't to be trusted, they are a black african government and look at what black african governments have done in places like Uganda"

Back from the digression, the plan all along may have been to allow elections so that the MB leadership would reveal themselves to the army junta, then after a bit of shit-stirring on the military owned media once the MB prez was elected & the Morsi made all the errors that politically inexperienced leaders always make, stage a coup and kill em all.

Seems like a plan eh & here are alla the friends of the poor enabling it.

This anti-islam claptrap would be reviled as racist/inhuman, if at every instance the word islam was replaced with black/unwhite/gay/old etc. Few peeps call out the assholes in here who denigrate the millions of Egyptians who voted for the MB as being corrupt and misogynist, just because they follow islam. fuckin hypocrisy barely covers it.

Even if the MB was all those things that have been called in here (which they aren't) it still wouldn't be OK to round em up and shoot them.

The anti MB claptrap that is being peddled here to excuse the Egyptian army's crimes is indistinguishable from the red neck claptrap MoA posters claim to despise.

Posted by: Debs is dead | Aug 19 2013 1:48 utc | 84


Did the US rig the election so Whitlam would win? You are mixing totally different things, and you know it. The agenda now is more destabilization and creating useful assets for self-destruction, which is what you get with an MB government.

The Ikhwan is an unprepared and dangerous group, far more suited for destruction than anything else. Besides, democracy is far less important than good government. Singapore or South Korea have had good governments, but totally rigged democracies.

And it isn't anti-Islam to point out what they are. Libya and Iraq were Muslim countries, and Syria was mostly Muslim. But the Ikhwan works for the West, and the West's goal is to put these countries back a century or two.

As for shooting them, well, no Western country would have tolerated remotely what the MB did. A liberal country might have used sound bombs or gas to drive them out, but that's about it. Besides, this is a destabilization campaign, not simply a group of protesters.

Posted by: Ozawa | Aug 19 2013 2:22 utc | 85

84) I second your sentiment until you reach your finish line

The anti MB claptrap that is being peddled here to excuse the Egyptian army's crimes is indistinguishable from the red neck claptrap MoA posters claim to despise.

1) The Muslim Brotherhood constituency probably is the equivalent to red neck. The Muslim Brotherhood constituency is definitively not the equivalent to Social Democrats who respect policemen all the way of going to prison.
The number of Egyptian dead policemen is now somewhere around 50 I think. Policemen have human rights, too.

2) Obviously human rights are for everyone including your enemy. Supporting someone's human rights does not mean endorsing his/her political stance, as opposing someone's political stance does not mean not supporting their human rights

3) After our experience with Hitler (whom we did not really elect) Germans agree that it makes sense to exclude fascists from the democratic process ie. you can only include forces in democratic politics that agree with the democratic basics as human rights for everyone. All democratic countries have exclusion laws targeting the right and the left or at least had at some point of their history.

The tragedy in Egypt is that they have no constitutional point of reference for dispute - they have to fight it out in the street which is a disaster for everybody or accept the army taking over.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 19 2013 2:40 utc | 86

This is the counter-revolutionary moment, if ever there was one in Egypt. But there are some who apparently find inspiration in cheapening the blood of those who have been slain in the street, sanctifying the trajectories of numerous bullets to the head and to the heart. The al-Sisi apologists are untroubled; and no amount of blood is likely to trouble them. People must understand who is in control of this theater of the macabre: anyone who doesn't comply with the dictate of the General is a terrorist, is a priori, a terrorist. The General is settling into his chair, and rebooting the same junta which has existed for so long. And still the bloodthirsty are cheering.

It's taking Schadenfreude way too far to dance and crow over a massacre, don't you think?

And there is no question that dispersing people with lethal force is about as crude as it gets. What an antagonistic, awkward history the Brothers have had, not forgetting their part as sidekicks in OPERATION GLADIO, working for US paymasters, which only confirms what a lock the West has now over Egypt. No doubt the Brotherhood has been pliable enough for decades, as a kind of insurance policy for keeping the imperial thumbscrews in place. And it's most always an error on the side of folly to think that a military coup is going to bring salvation to your country.

And let's be honest for a moment. Holding Morsi and his MB party responsible their misdeeds is no excuse to pardon the General, or his men, for wantonly shooting folks at a demonstration, paying particular mind to aim at the peoples' heads and hearts.

Most of the killing is done during the day. Over 1,000 dead in three days of carnage. As a reporter covering conflicts over the years, I have seen many dead bodies—but never have I seen so many people dying before my eyes. The last gurgling gasp of air, the eyes turning lifeless, the rising wails of grief.
As Egypt plunges headfirst into a deadly downward spiral with no end in sight, many of its citizens are baying for still more blood. Both sides leading the conflict, the military and the Muslim Brotherhood, are playing a zero-sum game, based on a false binary demanding that Egyptians choose one or the other. Both are defined by hierarchy, patriarchy, secrecy, mendacity and a blinding sense of their own superiority. Both are juggernauts in the Egyptian body politic that have heedlessly clawed away at Egypt’s social fabric in their struggle for power, proving time and again that their own political and economic interests trump all.
-Sharif Abdel Kouddous

Posted by: Copeland | Aug 19 2013 2:59 utc | 87

Egypt, U.S. on Collision Course
Wall Street Journal
Military-Led Government Says It is 'Reviewing' Relationship With U.S. Amid Criticism

"The attempts to internationalize the discussions about this event is something that Egypt rejects," Egyptian Foreign Minister Nabil Fahmy said Sunday. "I ask the foreign ministry to review the foreign aid of the past and to see if those aids are used in an optimal way."

Posted by: somebody | Aug 19 2013 3:02 utc | 88

On the political miscalculation of the Muslim Brotherhood

Mohamed Habib is the former Deputy General Guide of the Muslim Brotherhood. He is also the founder of the Renaissance Party.

Those who have lost everything

To be sure, the Muslim Brotherhood relied mainly on the support of the US administration and its pressure on state institutions, on the grounds that US interests would be respected in return. They forgot that the US administration stands with the stronger party, and that the US administration dealt with them on that basis at the beginning when they had the people, the army, and the police on their side. But now no one stands with them.

They lost everything due to their failure to understand what was happening around them. The Brotherhood’s mistakes were their downfall. They failed to achieve political stability and security. They failed to find solutions to the dire economic crisis and their fateful Constitutional Declaration led to division, fragmentation, civil strife, and violence, as well as the collapse of the rule of law.

As the Rabaa and al-Nahda sit-ins were being dispersed, police stations were stormed, churches and courts were burned, and public and private properties were attacked in many governorates. There was a scheme to turn Egypt into another Syria. If investigations and trials prove that the Muslim Brotherhood and its partisans were behind these acts, that will mean that their political, historical, and religious demise will have been from their own hands. The Brothers have not only lost power, but also lost people’s trust and sympathy. They evoke people's discontent, anger, and wrath to such a degree that some are currently calling for labeling the Muslim Brotherhood a terrorist organization that should, along with its political party, be dissolved.

Posted by: somebody | Aug 19 2013 3:35 utc | 89

NYT has another article about how much Israel needs Sisi: Israel Escalating Efforts to Shape Allies’ Strategy, dated Sunday Aug 18. 'Allies' in that headline apparently means the EU. The EU is not exactly a US 'ally'. WW2 is over and Churchill & Roosevelt are definitely dead.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Aug 19 2013 5:11 utc | 90

Hahaha I love it!
The brotherhood was crushed initially by Nasser, why? Because they opposed him and tried to have him killed.
Social democrats don't do those things.
The bruthahood, has also been infiltrated with elements of the CIA, so they are a tool of American foreign policy to an extent.
The Yanquis are just making a mess everywhere, they provide Egyptians with a billion dollars in aid, they provide the bruthahood with aid, then they just say "g'ahead boys, fight".
Oh fuck off, this the military industrial complex wet dream. More mayhem, more money.
Evil pays, ala Gordon Gecko "greed is good".
The bruthahood is a greedy & despotic organization.
The army is a greedy and despotic organization.
Both are bad, let them kill each other.
Why, because sadly that is all we can do my friends.
The Copts, Palestinian & secular, i.e. Muslims of moderate tendencies who smoke, drink, date & dance are gay, bisexual and atheists are the ones I root for they are the true victims.
Everyone else can jump into a trench and be buried.
I support you Brian, you made me laugh.
Anonymouse, he called you out and your ignoring him.
That either makes you bigger than him or one big pussy!!

Posted by: Fernando | Aug 19 2013 6:19 utc | 91

The mb supporters are mainly the Egyptian poor

Note the the fake egyptian, mina, or Zina, made some hilarious reference about justice for the 99%,earlier - you know, the usual Western sponsored crap the zionist agents spout all over the ME. At the time she made the comment it was clear that it was nothing but a cheap attempt to bolster her image as "some one that cares" rather than being the obvious prowestern disinfo agent she clearly is

If Zina actually gave a damn for the 99% why is she litterally wetting her panties with glee as the military (which 1 yr ago she would have claimed to be against) blatantly murders large numbers of that 99% she so dishonestly claims to care about?

Posted by: hmm | Aug 19 2013 7:50 utc | 92

The egyptian military clear represents the 1% which the fake Zina would claim to be against, yet here she is cheering them on as they slaughter, maim, murder their way to redominating the political scene in egypt.

That herself and this site's other most obvious disinfo agent, the clearly, provably dishonest "zomebody", are clearly singing from the same hymnsheet should give people pause for thought

Posted by: hmm | Aug 19 2013 8:05 utc | 93


....As many American Evangelicals incessantly drum up billions for the IDF at the behest of an Israel lobby that holds them in undisguised contempt, Russia is increasingly returning to its ancient duty of defending the inheritance of Byzantium, the Second Rome. Putin can hardly be accused of sentimentality; traditional Russian statecraft has maintained centuries of intense focus on controlling the Black Sea Basin and its approaches. Yet geopolitics is not conducted in a rationalized vacuum, either- the entirety of cultural, historical and religious context will inevitably inform policy and conceptions of interest. And so we observe the Kremlin making fraternal Serbia a key transit point in its planned South Stream gas pipeline, potentially expanding military ties with Orthodox Cyprus and shielding the Syrian Baathist state (and the Christian communities under its protection) from certain annihilation[5].

America, meanwhile, advances liberal imperialism through its favored cutouts- from transnational Muslim militant groups to Open Society NGOs imposing democracy, multiculturalism, feminism and sexual perversion. In Russia’s case, we see evidence for both types of sabotage in Western elites’ advocacy for the depraved and blasphemous exhibitionists of Pussy Riot and the jihad in the North Caucasus. Tried and tested across Eurasia, this dual-track approach forms a dialectic of subversion aimed at destroying national cultures and state sovereignty. What Putin faces is the same Revolution that nearly killed Russia in the last century, the same regicide apostates who have driven over generations to build a counterfeit paradise on earth according to malevolently inspired abstractions of liberty and equality. In the fateful year of 1848, the poet Fedor Tyutchev would write of a coming war, one as much spiritual as physical:....

Posted by: Sufi | Aug 19 2013 8:29 utc | 94

Posted by: hmm | Aug 19, 2013 4:05:46 AM | 93

"Pause for thought"

In August 2011, a series of cross-border attacks were carried out in southernIsrael on Highway 12 near the Egyptian border via the Sinai Peninsula.[22] The terrorists opened fire on an Egged No. 392 bus near Eilat,[23][24] and soon thereafter, a bomb was detonated next to an Israeli army patrol along the Egypt–Israel border. A third attack occurred when an anti-tank missile hit a private vehicle, killing four civilians.[25] Eight Israelis – six civilians, oneYamam Special Unit police officer, and one Golani Brigade soldier – were killed during the multi-pronged attack.[25

Posted by: jub (aipac rep bolivia) | Aug 19 2013 8:44 utc | 95

@Sufi | Aug 19, 2013 4:29:44 AM | 94: That's a great mag you have there, Sufi:

it is the Cross of Christ, and not some pagan collection of stones or burial mounds, that has repeatedly proven to be the standard around which the mightiest warriors of our race have gathered to vanquish every single one of the numerous and generally unrelenting hordes of foes our culture has ever faced...

Maybe you should see a psychiatrist.

Posted by: Rowan Berkeley | Aug 19 2013 8:47 utc | 96

Or robert spencer

Posted by: hmm | Aug 19 2013 9:16 utc | 97


Yes I also question this posters secterian motivation.

Posted by: Anonymous | Aug 19 2013 9:17 utc | 98


Yes, a rather curious incident with a strong odour of m/lihop/false-flag about it,

Posted by: hmm | Aug 19 2013 9:22 utc | 99

the defence of the islamist sharia-seeking Muslim Brotherhood is amazing: the same MB almost took control of syria in 1970s: had it done so syria would look very different.

a reminder
here is Yusuf Qaradawi " 'Al-Qaradawi has long had a prominent role within the intellectual leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood,'

now this eg of MB intellectual 'On 21 February 2011, he talked about the protests in Libya and issued a fatwa permitting the killing of Muammar Gaddafi:[34]'

thats the Muslim Brotherhood people are supporting...those who aided the murder of Gadaffi . #shame

Posted by: brian | Aug 19 2013 9:37 utc | 100

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